DOTM - not excited? [possible spoils] [Archive] - Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia (otca.com.au)

BlackConvoy

15th February 2011, 11:50 PM

So I'm new here, and not looking for a fight... I just can't help but feel this new movie is going to upset me.

I grew up with G1, looking back on it now, Season 2 and 3 were pretty bad. Still have a great love for Season 1 and the movie. With that in mind, what Bay did with the first movie was fantastic.

The second greatly upset me. I can't help but feel his "expert" advisors with their "encyclopedic" knowledge of the Transformers woke up one day and thought they'd try their luck. Autobots do not arbitrarily destroy anything, even Decepticons in hiding. Seems they were hiding for 100 years too without incident based on the photos Sector 7 had, yet never took a stand when us humans developed weaponry capable of hurting them. Wasn't 'til the Autobots showed up that the war started. Also, why bother breaking into military facilities, even Air Force One in the first film, when Soundwave can just hump a satellite. This just ruins the whole reasoning behind the first film.

When I heard Jetfire was in it, I got really excited. To see him include a walking stick in his transformation made me retch. I was all set to cast this disgust aside when he merged with Prime (wished there was an 'Optimal Optimus' reference, but no)... only to have Jetfires parts just cast aside like a piece of trash when he was done using him. No send-off or appreciation for the sacrifice. This isn't what Autobots are.

This brings us to the upcoming one. Going by the trailer, lets say the government was able to cover up the existence of a space-ship on the moon. Wouldn't the Autobots have picked it up on their way past in the first film? Or Starscream and that Fallen joke in the second? It feels like they've got the same losers and their ridiculous imagination from the second film to cash in on the franchise again.

Having just seen TF:Prime, it really puts in perspective - the movies are crap. Plus a Megatron without Welker isn't a Megatron at all.

Don't hate me.......... just wondering if I'm the only one that feels this way.

BC

Tetsuwan Convoy

16th February 2011, 04:15 AM

So I'm new here, and not looking for a fight... I just can't help but feel this new movie is going to upset me.

2 main points I would like to make.

Just in case you are serious about the starting a fight comment, I think I should refer you to rule #1 of the Ozformer Userguide.

1 - Treat others how you want to be treated yourself. Do not criticise, insult, abuse, ridicule or bait a negative response from others.

Secondly. You will need a to find a more inflammatory argument and go against the popular opinion.

I mean let's face it, aside from looking nice, the secnd TF Bay movie was a vacuous waste of my life. I had the bought the blu ray when it came out and couldn't brng myself to watch the movie again because I disliked it so much.

I suspect most people here will view the 3rd movie with lower expectations due to the quality of the second.

If you wanna start a fight, try something like...

"ROTF is better than Beast Wars because ..."

Good luck;)

Robzy

16th February 2011, 09:48 AM

Just in case you are serious about the starting a fight comment, I think I should refer you to rule #1 of the Ozformer Userguide.

[snip]

If you wanna start a fight, try something like...

Tets... BlackConvoy doesn't want to start a fight...

So I'm new here, and not looking for a fight...

And to answer the question... yeah ROTF sucked badly. It rivals Pearl Harbor (IMO) as worst ever! I don't own the DVD or Blu ray and have never been able to watch it again since the first time I saw it (I tried to re-watch it, but was so bored and disgusted I turned it off).

I have zero interest in DOTM. I expect it to be more of the same. That being said, because I am such a stupid TF tragic, I will probably still go and see it at the cinemas. But, unlike the last 2 times, it won't be on opening day.

VERT

16th February 2011, 11:03 AM

Paulbot

16th February 2011, 11:29 AM

I grew up with G1, looking back on it now, Season 2 and 3 were pretty bad.

Season 2 was "pretty bad"? I barely ever rewatch Season 3 which I could agree with you on, but season 2 has most of my favourite G1 episodes IMHO (Dinobot Island, Golden Lagoon, Key to Vector Sigma, Desertion of the Dinobots, Megatron's Master Plan, Masquerade for examples). I even like some of the more fun episodes like (Hoist Goes Hollywood, Kremzeek and The Girl Who Loved Powerglide).

However I agree that ROTF was both not a very good movie and also not a very good Transformers movie (particularly for its take on the Autobots, you know who park in a airport hanger between missions?)

Different voices than the cartoon though, and characters with the same names as old characters but are different characters (like Jetfire or Skids or Wheelie) aren't things that bother me at all though.

My expectations for ROTF were mixed. I'd seen five minutes before and while I'd been impressed with the merging of Devastator scene I hated seeing Bumblebee rip Ravage apart and tear of the arms of Rampage before shooting him in the head.

For DOTM I'm not expecting a great film but I am hoping it's closer to the first film than the second and hope they get things right and can impress us.

griffin

16th February 2011, 12:53 PM

My main gripe about TF2 was that the writers changed Optimus from being the iconic 'childhood hero' that every other version has been to past fans. This one was cold, callous and calculating... pretty much Decepticon in his behaviour, from killing a disabled Decepticon without hesitation at the start, to using and then dumping the body of Jetfire like trash at the end. And since he was dead for most of the movie, he was certainly not one of the Hero elements of TF2.
Those are the sorts of characteristics that Hasbro has power of veto over (one of the few things Bay doesn't have absolute power over in the TFs brand), with their small number of historically iconic characters, so this darkening of Optimus' character and removal of his 'hero' status would had to have been approved by Hasbro. Or else Bay is just making them so much money that they don't care what he does now.

Bartrim

16th February 2011, 01:17 PM

Gutsman Heavy

16th February 2011, 01:20 PM

so this darkening of Optimus' character and removal of his 'hero' status would had to have been approved by Hasbro. Or else Bay is just making them so much money that they don't care what he does now.

Hot dog! We have a wiener!

No doubt hasbro loosened the strings when their purse was bursting at the seams thanks to Bay.

gantz

16th February 2011, 01:30 PM

Skullcruncher

16th February 2011, 01:43 PM

Bay destroyed my childhood!

My mind will never be the same after seeing devestators privates!

The twins hate hate hate!!

Jolt was only on for 3 seconds!! Mad Rage all round!!!

I'm only going to watch the DVD once more this year as well if its on tv!!

Haha in all seriousness I didn't mind it overall, a couple of things I thought a bit odd when I first watched it was prime going bananas and why on earth there were so many of the same decepticon. It wasn't until I joined a couple of boards with all the so called 'fanboys' did I realise there was so much hate for it.

For DoTM yes I am looking forward to it more than any other movie of the year. Most likely becuase I have been following the news and previews about it unlike previous two I had no idea about what was happening until I saw them on the big screen.

Bartrim

16th February 2011, 01:48 PM

I'm a fan of ROTF. The movie has it's faults I really think they should of waited until after the writers strike to make the film but all things considered I think they did quite well.

Golden Phoenix

16th February 2011, 02:12 PM

UltraMarginal

16th February 2011, 02:26 PM

I am in the freak minority that enjoyed and likes ROTF (also spiderman 3 :()

Was never off a fan of the passive aggressive Autobots, ah dudes, there is a whole fraction of Bots just waiting to annihilate you all, don't you think you should step it up a little?!

And thank you Bay, thats what you delivered. In addition to that, besides the dedicated fans, not many others want or like the 80's heroics. Its the new millennium, you want universal peace, you gonna have to murder and take down a few to achieve that!

I thoroughly enjoyed bits of it.

I loved the fight scene, in the forest, Elements of the fight scene at the end were great. the dynamic between Starscream and Megatron was fleshed out well. Jetfire was an SR-71 !! The more agresive tone of the autobots was pretty good I thought, maybe not the cold blooded killing but the overall agression reflected the attitude that you would be in after an eons long war.

What I didn't like, was the "pretender" though it was well explained in the novel, the old broken jetfire with a walking stick, spitting, drooling robots, devastator was such a waste of money and time and everything. the fallen.

Like has been said before, the bay movies have done so much for transformers, the have brought the property out into the mainstream, there is no way we would have the broad selectioni of tv shows, comics and most of all toys if it weren't for these films.

and more than anything else, i'll be going to the cinema to watch dotm, not for the quality script (though if it does have a quality script I'll be the last to complain), but for the giant robots "blowing shit up". If there's one thing that Michael Bay is good at it's car chases and blowing shit up.:cool:

griffin

16th February 2011, 02:31 PM

I agree that it was more likely war weary Autobots (Ironhide was just as bad), but it wasn't as obvious, if at all, in the first one.
But I guess the first movie was done more 'classic' to win over fans and kids, and from number 2 onwards we get war-hardened Autobots - who don't have time or resources for prisoners, or want to risk their lives by having a Decepticon live longer than it 'needs' to.

Gutsman Heavy

16th February 2011, 02:39 PM

My hatred was rather well documented at the SA meets (Ranting lunatic is probably an understatement)

My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.

Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak.

BlackConvoy

16th February 2011, 03:00 PM

I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels this way ;)

This thread has brought back some awful flashbacks of ROTF that I'd forgotten about.

- The Pretender, enough said.
- The countless anonymous Decepticons there purely for fodder for the Autobot carnage.
- I guess he forgot he named the tank Devastator in the first film.
- The twins were annoying, if they'd died at the hands of Devastator, I could have been a bit more forgiving... but they took his face off. Not happy.
- Bumblebee tearing out Ravage's spine.
- Prime getting resurrected through "love".
- Decepticon babies??

To me, it felt like a video game. Not a good one either, much like every "game of the movie" is awful, this felt like watching someone play one of those. Its all about Prime, he goes through a stage killing a bunch of miscellaneous Decepticons before reaching a 'boss'. In between fights, theres some cutscenes involving Ms Fox curves and Mr Lebeouf's big ears, then its back to something involving Prime. Plenty of other robots make their token appearances for their 2 minutes of onscreen time. Even when he dies, its still all about Prime.

@Paulbot - True, there are a few great episodes, and I hope I don't offend when I bring up a few things from Season 2 that I didn't like...

- Seaspray turning into a mermaid.
- A transformer afraid of heights (Silverbolt).
- Ripping Prime's body into pieces and using them as parts around a city (I remember a part as a crocodile, his arm and rifle ontop of a building)... I forget the name of this episode.
- So many episodes with the "mini" transformers as the main characters, so kids that could only afford those still felt special (Ok, this sounds mean - I just didnt like them)
- Cosmos can fit all Autobots inside him (I dislike Astrotrain for this reason too)
- Whoever made the decision on how Warpath should speak.
- Omega Supreme is godlike in one episode, a broken down wreck in the next.
- Omega Supreme having happy-fun times on Cybertron with the Constructicons, 3 million years prior - yet Megatron created them in Season 1.
- Acid rain on Cybertron.

... now I sound like all I do is complain.

Season 1 had great characters, and build up to a nice finale, and the movie just topped it off for me.

I thoroughly enjoyed Beast Wars for the same reason. It had great character development and didn't try to cram each episode with a heap of new characters to try and sell. The plot twist at the end of Season 2 was fantastic.

Now we're at TF:Prime, I've not been so eager to see the next episode since I was a kid watching Gen1. Can't wait until this series hits Blu-ray.

BC

GoktimusPrime

16th February 2011, 03:30 PM

I grew up with G1, looking back on it now, Season 2 and 3 were pretty bad. Still have a great love for Season 1 and the movie.
The G1 comics were better than the G1 cartoon IMO.

With that in mind, what Bay did with the first movie was fantastic.
The first movie captures the spirit of the G1 cartoon really well.

The second greatly upset me. I can't help but feel his "expert" advisors with their "encyclopedic" knowledge of the Transformers woke up one day and thought they'd try their luck. Autobots do not arbitrarily destroy anything, even Decepticons in hiding. Seems they were hiding for 100 years too without incident based on the photos Sector 7 had, yet never took a stand when us humans developed weaponry capable of hurting them.
Actually, there were lots of incidents that occured since the discovery of the "Ice Man," from Bonnie and Clyde to reverse-engineered Nazi mecha in WWII. Humans developed weapons capable to effecting Cybertronians because of this history of encounters (and of course, studying NBE-1).

Wasn't 'til the Autobots showed up that the war started.
Again, see the Sector 7 series that's currently on sale now! :D

Also, why bother breaking into military facilities, even Air Force One in the first film, when Soundwave can just hump a satellite. This just ruins the whole reasoning behind the first film.
Do we know if Soundwave was floating around in Earth orbit during the events of the first film, or did he arrive some time after?

When I heard Jetfire was in it, I got really excited. To see him include a walking stick in his transformation made me retch. I was all set to cast this disgust aside when he merged with Prime (wished there was an 'Optimal Optimus' reference, but no)... only to have Jetfires parts just cast aside like a piece of trash when he was done using him. No send-off or appreciation for the sacrifice. This isn't what Autobots are.
Hey, Optimus Prime totally mourned for Jetfire.

For about as much as he mourned for Jazz. :p (at least it's consistent ;))

This brings us to the upcoming one. Going by the trailer, lets say the government was able to cover up the existence of a space-ship on the moon. Wouldn't the Autobots have picked it up on their way past in the first film?

Not if it's inactive and not giving out any signals, energy signatures etc.

Or Starscream and that Fallen joke in the second?
When I first heard that the movie was called "Revenge of The Fallen," I got all excited, cos I quite like the original Fallen character from Neo-G1... then when I saw him on film it was kinda like... oh. That... wasn't quite what I was hoping for... (he's not even on fire all the time...)

Having just seen TF:Prime, it really puts in perspective - the movies are crap. Plus a Megatron without Welker isn't a Megatron at all.
I think Weaving Megatron is fine.

My main gripe about TF2 was that the writers changed Optimus from being the iconic 'childhood hero' that every other version has been to past fans. This one was cold, callous and calculating... pretty much Decepticon in his behaviour, from killing a disabled Decepticon without hesitation at the start, to using and then dumping the body of Jetfire like trash at the end.
Yeah, I thought ROTF Optimus Prime was much like Dai Atlas from Transformers Zone, and for anyone who hasn't watched it yet STOP READING NOW!

(spoiler space)

Dai Atlas is a character who has LONG been widely disliked by Japanese G1 fans. The main criticism against him was that he's too ruthless and incompassionate as an Autobot Commander. If you watch Transformers Zone he takes no prisoners and kills every Decepticon who comes across his way. Japanese fans have often felt that he does not adequately carry the true spirit of "Convoy," of an Autobot leader... that he should be more compassionate.

But having said that, Dai Atlas was usually not as bad as ROTF Optimus Prime because Dai Atlas only every killed enemy combatants in battle. Most of them were not defeated and defenceless opponents. Dai Atlas' most cruel moment was probably when he killed Predaking -- because Predaking was retreating at the time he dissected him with his sword. But at least Predaking wasn't utterly defeated and helpless like Demolishor was. Predaking _could_ have turned and fought Dai Atlas, but instead chose to flee like a coward.

And since he was dead for most of the movie, he was certainly not one of the Hero elements of TF2.
...dead characters need to stay dead...

Those are the sorts of characteristics that Hasbro has power of veto over (one of the few things Bay doesn't have absolute power over in the TFs brand), with their small number of historically iconic characters, so this darkening of Optimus' character and removal of his 'hero' status would had to have been approved by Hasbro. Or else Bay is just making them so much money that they don't care what he does now.
Hasbro seems to be very lenient in approving almost anything with this film franchise. If you watch the DVD interviews you can see that some of the writers etc. were pleasantly surprised at how much free reign Hasbro gave them. A bit too much free reign perhaps.

From what I can ascertain, it seemed the only few times that Hasbro intervened was when:
+ Insisting that Optimus Prime needed to have a red chest. Michael Bay explained to Archer that this would be difficult to film, so a compromised was reached - thus the chopper flames.
+ Certain character designs were redone at Hasbro's request if they felt that it would be too challenging to engineer as a toy. e.g. Optimus Prime's tires were originally meant to split and come right off the wheels; this was redone at Hasbro's request, so the tyres still split slightly, but remain on the wheels. Having said that, Hasbro still let them get away with really WEIRD designs for characters like Reedman and Alice... which Hasbro has yet to make toys for. It seems that they don't seem interested in making toys of them. This irks me... I wish Hasbro wouldn't approve Transformers for the film that they have no intention of making toys of. :(

I actually liked this change.
I looked at it as if he had started as the hero type and the war had changed him. Made him lose touch every now and then and in the heat of battle he forgets and just goes from the kill.
This is way more than just losing touch in the heat of battle. Optimus Prime is meant to be a seasoned veteran combatant, not some random civilian conscript who's recently taken up arms. Put it this way, when professional soldiers abuse, torture or execute defeated or captured enemy combatants they would be prosecuted for having committed war crimes.

My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.

Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak.

tru dat.

Sky Shadow

16th February 2011, 03:49 PM

So I'm new here, and not looking for a fight...

Hi! I'm old here and just bought a new pair of virtual boxing gloves.

I grew up with G1, looking back on it now, Season 2 and 3 were pretty bad.

If Season 2 was pretty bad then Season 1 must have been completely awful.

This thread has brought back some awful flashbacks of ROTF that I'd forgotten about.

- The Pretender, enough said.

Alice was the only good bit in the film. She needs a toy.

I thoroughly enjoyed Beast Wars for the same reason. It had great character development and didn't try to cram each episode with a heap of new characters to try and sell. The plot twist at the end of Season 2 was fantastic.

Comparing Beast Wars to the G1 cartoon is like comparing apples and rotten orange peel.

...

Oh, and welcome! :D

Demonac

16th February 2011, 03:51 PM

I just think ROTF is an awful film, that shows what happens when you let the someone have too much power. It joins other esteemed 'movies' such as:
Battlefield: Earth (Travolta); Star Trek 5 (Shatner); Glitter (Mariah Carey) and many others.
Unless this upcoming film fares better, I'm not wasting movie or time on it.

Doubledealer

16th February 2011, 04:18 PM

Part of the reason why RotF was so disappointing is due to it not matching the quality of the excellent first film. Things are a bit different this time, we've had one cracker and one stinker, and because of this I think the majority of movie goers will go into TF3 with lesser expectations.

What will be interesting to see is how much mulah-lah DOTM makes compared to ROTF. Why? Well, the first movie appealed to not just Transformers fans, it appealed to all movie goers who enjoy fun action movies (I don't know anyone who didn't like or love it). Because of this, a LOT of people would have been looking forward to the sequel. Because RotF was such an epic fail, I wonder if these fans of the first film will even bother with this new one. Only time will tell!

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing the new movie and will absolutely see it on the opening night as I have done with the others. Hoping to be pleasantly surprised. :)

UltraMarginal

16th February 2011, 04:31 PM

Alice was the only good bit in the film. She needs a toy.

I don't think Hasbro make toys like that.:eek:

BlackConvoy

16th February 2011, 04:42 PM

Actually, there were lots of incidents that occured since the discovery of the "Ice Man,"

I was more referring to the bi-plane, model-t photos Simmons had in his files. Sector 7 only referred to MBE-1, seemed surprised to see other robots around the place. I don't seem to remember any nazis in the movies, maybe I missed something ;)

Do we know if Soundwave was floating around in Earth orbit during the events of the first film, or did he arrive some time after?

This is true.. but again, given the time the Decepts have been hanging around, it seemed strange. Maybe they had to thaw out Megs before the smarts of "operation matrix fairy dust" really took off.

Not if it's inactive and not giving out any signals, energy signatures etc.

Also true, but from the trailer the ship looked pretty big. Given all the robots in the second movie, I'd imagine one would say "whats going on over there?"

the original Fallen character from Neo-G1

I hoped it was something clever, Megatron falling in the first, getting his revenge and all that. Not literally a guy called 'Fallen'. Reminds me of 'Attack of the Clones'.

I think Weaving Megatron is fine.

I think Cullen spent too many years as a donkey ;)

A bit too much free reign perhaps.

Agreed... when compared with something like the IDW comics or War for Cybertron..... I guess I'm spoiled.

I wish Hasbro wouldn't approve Transformers for the film that they have no intention of making toys of. :(

Classic example.... Arcee :(

Alice was the only good bit in the film. She needs a toy.
Realdolls? >.>

Comparing Beast Wars to the G1 cartoon is like comparing apples and rotten orange peel.

Apples and rotten oranges still grow on trees... I was comparing character development, that is all ;)

shokwave2

16th February 2011, 05:52 PM

Bay blamed the writer's strike for the quality of ROTF. What will he blame if DOTM suffers the same fate?

I enjoyed how the Autobots have war-hardened in ROTF. If they were still defensive and least likely to kill a decepticon, it would be a boring film. It would just be two and a half hours of Autobots running and hiding. They've stepped up coz they're sick of getting their arses kicked. I hope this final film is to the death. I want bodies (robots and humans) all over the ground. I want destruction. Maybe a handful of bots left by the end. Make it memorable. Make it shock(wave) the audience;)

Demonac

16th February 2011, 06:11 PM

I can't believe ppl are justifying cold blooded murder by the 'good guys'!
War hardened is one thing. Shooting a bot in the face that is obviously incapacitated is another.
It was done purely to make Prime into a 'bad ass'. It doesn't. It makes him a sociopath.
Optimus Prime should not be Mr. Blonde.

BlackConvoy

16th February 2011, 06:48 PM

I can't believe ppl are justifying cold blooded murder by the 'good guys'!

I agree.. they did plenty of running and hiding in the TV series. ROTF its more the Decepticons are running and hiding and the Autobots are searching the planet for any life signs, then going straight in for the kill.

Prime's execution of a fleeing Demolishor, and I still can't believe Ravage had his spine ripped out.

Cold-blooded (in a robot?) murder in a Decepticon makes sense. They're supposed to be the bad guys that tried to enslave the planet a number of times in the cartoons - this is what the Autobots should protect against, not arbitrarily exterminate.

BC

Doubledealer

16th February 2011, 08:06 PM

twisted_belly

16th February 2011, 08:30 PM

Paulbot

16th February 2011, 09:05 PM

I can't believe ppl are justifying cold blooded murder by the 'good guys'!

+1

Yes in films the good guys sometimes have to kill the bad guys (or allow them to die). It happens. It even happens in most Disney animated films! But shooting a defeated opponent, and one that was causing no trouble until you showed up to kill him, isn't what you expect outside a film about the Punisher.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, right? Someone said that once. I thought it was Prime. I prefer to believe that the robot Prime shot in the head was just another of the dozens or more mindless drone constructicons, like the ones that appear later, rather than a living sentient Transformer.

Sky Shadow

16th February 2011, 09:32 PM

DEMOLISHOR: I know you're not going to kill me, Optimus. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, right?

<BLAM!>

PRIME: Now you're free, bitch.

Doubledealer

16th February 2011, 09:57 PM

Okay so let's just say we're at the scene where Prime, Ironhide etc. rock up in front of the defeated (and totally fubar) Demolishor. We already know how Bay's version ends, what would people opposed to this ending like to see happen? I'm genuinely intrigued.

Demonac

16th February 2011, 10:17 PM

Right at the point where Wheel-Bot is going to talk about Fallen, a missile is fired, destroying him. This would be the introduction of Starscream, mercilessly killing one of his own to stop him from spilling the beans.
I came up with that in 10 seconds, and was paid nothing...where is the justice in this world? :P

GoktimusPrime

16th February 2011, 10:43 PM

I was more referring to the bi-plane, model-t photos Simmons had in his files. Sector 7 only referred to MBE-1, seemed surprised to see other robots around the place. I don't seem to remember any nazis in the movies, maybe I missed something ;)
It's in the Sector 7 series (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformers:_Sector_7) which tells the story of Sector 7's origins beginning in 1898. By 1944 the Nazis had captured a Non-Biological Entity and reverse engineered it to create their own piloted transformable machines like the Panzer-Giganten. Agent Walter Simmons (Seymour's father) and Jetfire managed to thwart the Nazi's plan to exploit Cybertronian technology (this would be one of Jetfire's first heroic acts as a former Decepticon).

Also true, but from the trailer the ship looked pretty big. Given all the robots in the second movie, I'd imagine one would say "whats going on over there?"
Yeah but an object that relatively small may not be visible to the naked eye from Lunar orbit, and as far as we know, none of the Transformers have even been to Earth's moon, let alone observed it up close from its orbit. As far as we've seen they haven't been anywhere else in the Solar System other than Mars and Earth.

I hoped it was something clever, Megatron falling in the first, getting his revenge and all that. Not literally a guy called 'Fallen'. Reminds me of 'Attack of the Clones'.
Yeah but The Fallen is a character that was known to many Transformer fans, because he first appeared in "Transformers The War Within: The Dark Ages." The Fallen is also a Multiversal Singularity, meaning that he exists in every Transformers universe, just like Primus and Unicron. The Fallen's original name was Megatronus Prime -- one of the original 13 Transformers created by Primus (and in the movie universe, apparently 7 of those original 13 were Primes). After Megatronus Prime was corrupted by Unicron and became evil, then he became known as The Fallen.

IMO ROTF The Fallen wasn't as cool as the original The Fallen. The original The Fallen looks better too IMO.
G1 The Fallen (http://host.trivialbeing.org/up/transformers-jul29-the-fallen-revenge-of-the-fallen.jpg)
Movieverse The Fallen (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3600/3425789225_f677069db2_o.jpg)

Classic example.... Arcee :(
Yeah, I gotta agree with this.

Transformers is always better when they're made as toys first, then as cartoons/comics/movies second -- based on the toys. Things can often get screwy when it's the other way around. Although HasTak did think about making a G1 Arcee toy... she was gonna be a repaint of Chromedome (http://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/e/e5/Concept-HeadmasterArcee.jpg) ostensibly with a different Headmaster head (most likely Daniel Witwicky). I don't know if we should be glad that it never happened. :p

Realdolls? >.>
No, I'd want a proper Transformers action figure. Not some non-transforming doll. Non-transforming Transformer toys = teh suck.

Of course the problem is that Hasbro probably just blindly approved Reedman and Alice without thinking about how they could be feasibly engineered into toys. (-_-) The thing that really sucks about Alice is that she has no alt mode kibble in robot mode. Yeah I know from a scifi POV it makes sense, but having alt mode kibble is what makes Transformers look like Transformers. Hasbro themselves acknowledged this which is why for most of the other Transformers (which we got toys of) they ensured that the robot modes did have noticeable alt mode kibble on them.

I can't believe Hasbro approved ROTF Megatron as an alien tank. I'm so glad that DOTM Megatron is gonna be an Earth vehicle.

Prime's execution of a fleeing Demolishor, and I still can't believe Ravage had his spine ripped out.
I think Bumblebee's actions are defensible but Prime's aren't. When Prime executed Demolishor he was already defeated and incapacitated. Prime should have demanded Demolishor to surrender and had him captured. If his wounds were fatal, then at least show some regret in him committing a mercy kill. Because that's what happened at the end of the first movie when Megatron was killed, Prime said, "I'm sorry brother, you left me no choice." It shows that Prime regretted the fact that Megatron had to die.

Now Bumblebee on the other hand disarmed (sic) Skipjack, uh, Rampage, and killed Ravage (although Ravage was later rebuilt by the Initiative) in the middle of combat. If a soldier is attacked by two enemy soldiers, it's not unreasonable for that soldier to engage with lethal force. The big difference between Bumblebee and Prime is that Bumblebee incapacitates/kills his enemies when he's fighting them. Skippage and Ravage were both trying to kill Bumblebee at the time he defeated them. They were not already defeated and helpless at the time.

So there's a world of difference between what Bumblebee did to Ravage and what Prime did to Demolishor. Prime's killed other Decepticons too - like Bonecrusher and Grindor, but we don't complain about those because Prime killed them while he was fighting them. Bonecrusher, Grindor and Ravage were NOT executed in a helpless state - they died as a result of direct combat.

Guys, guys, guys....This isn't your daddy's Transformers. It's a different interpretation of the Transformers universe including changes to certain characters personalities (look at Jetfire ferchrisakes!), so if you can't handle that then I suggest going home and crying to mumma. :p
Even just within the movie universe it's a contradiction. As I said, TF1 Prime showed compassion -- he only killed Bonecrusher as he was fighting him (i.e. it was NOT an execution), and he expressed regret that Megatron died at the end. Prime's attitude in Shanghai flies against what we saw in Mission City. Is it the same Optimus Prime?

I don't actually believe Prime was being unbotmane anyway. He basically had to totally **** Demolishor up before he would stop killing you, your family and your little pet Catilla too. What was he meant to do with the fubar, no doubt beyond repair Demolishor once he was finally stopped?
Yes but at the time Demolishor was executed he was fully incapable of causing any more harm. Thus at that time there was no need to kill him. And if he was beyond repair, this should have been pointed out to the audience because otherwise it does look like an execution. Prime didn't even ask Ratchet to scan him or something, or even bend over and have a close inspection... *sigh*

Instead of saying, "Any last words?" he could have said, "I'm truly sorry for this." -- some kind of expression of regret. Without that then it does feel cold fluided.

Yes, the execution itself may have seemed a bit psycho at the time but Prime's all about saving humanity and just witnessed hundreds of human lives go down the proverbial. Can you blame him for being a bit pissed?
Yeah but you'd expect Optimus Prime to rise above petty feelings for revenge and act PROFESSIONAL.

For example say there's a guy who walks into a building and shoots innocent people, then the police arrive. Unless he's immediately threatening a life they're not going to get police snipers to take him down. First they're going to ask him to surrender. And if he DOES surrender, or say a cop shoots him in the leg and incapacitates him, would you expect the police to walk up to him and say, "Any last words?" before shooting him in the head at point blank range? Or would you expect the police to arrest him? If the police chose to shoot him, what do you think would happen to that officer?

Soldiers get into massive trouble if they abuse POWs in any way (e.g. humiliation, torture etc.). And the execution of POWs is considered barbaric.

Paulbot

16th February 2011, 11:01 PM

Tl;dr
The movie audience for a summer blockbuster based on an 80s toyline can not be expected to know about obscure comic books or multiversal singularities; what happens on screen is all that counts. Having said that...

Instead of saying, "Any last words?" he could have said, "I'm truly sorry for this." -- some kind of expression of regret. Without that then it does feel cold fluided.

It is interesting that the movie novelisation just has Demolisher saying his final words after Prime's attack with no comment or kill shot from Prime. In the comic adaptation Furman has Prime say "I wish there was another way" as he delivers a fatal blow. Both seem more 'right' and suggest the adaptors weren't fans of that scene or the script was rewritten at a late stage.

Robzy

16th February 2011, 11:08 PM

My hatred was rather well documented at the SA meets (Ranting lunatic is probably an understatement)
Great guys... you got him started. Everyone get comfy! Listen, and understand... The Gutsmanator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until Bay is dead.

My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.

Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak.
I've told you this a million times, but will say it again... you, sir, are a genius!

Optimus Prime should not be Mr. Blonde.
QFT! :D

Guys, guys, guys....This isn't your daddy's Transformers. It's a different interpretation of the Transformers universe including changes to certain characters personalities

Thank God for that! I would be embarrassed showing ROTF to a Newbie as the only representation of everything I love about Transformers.

Doubledealer

16th February 2011, 11:20 PM

Even just within the movie universe it's a contradiction. As I said, TF1 Prime showed compassion -- he only killed Bonecrusher as he was fighting him (i.e. it was NOT an execution), and he expressed regret that Megatron died at the end. Prime's attitude in Shanghai flies against what we saw in Mission City. Is it the same Optimus Prime?

Yes but at the time Demolishor was executed he was fully incapable of causing any more harm. Thus at that time there was no need to kill him. And if he was beyond repair, this should have been pointed out to the audience because otherwise it does look like an execution. Prime didn't even ask Ratchet to scan him or something, or even bend over and have a close inspection... *sigh*

Instead of saying, "Any last words?" he could have said, "I'm truly sorry for this." -- some kind of expression of regret. Without that then it does feel cold fluided.

Yeah but you'd expect Optimus Prime to rise above petty feelings for revenge and act PROFESSIONAL.

For example say there's a guy who walks into a building and shoots innocent people, then the police arrive. Unless he's immediately threatening a life they're not going to get police snipers to take him down. First they're going to ask him to surrender. And if he DOES surrender, or say a cop shoots him in the leg and incapacitates him, would you expect the police to walk up to him and say, "Any last words?" before shooting him in the head at point blank range? Or would you expect the police to arrest him? If the police chose to shoot him, what do you think would happen to that officer?

Soldiers get into massive trouble if they abuse POWs in any way (e.g. humiliation, torture etc.). And the execution of POWs is considered barbaric.

I've interpretted the scene differently to yourself. Rather than simply being incapacitated, I see a Decepticon in a great deal of pain, beyond repair and close to death. The only thing Prime could do was to 'put him out of his misery' so to speak. He knew this and that's ultimately why he introduced Demolishor to his little friend. Perhaps he could have said something a bit better than 'Any last words?' but this is a war and sadly not everything happens the way it should. I actually think it makes Prime a bit more interesting and less predictable than usual. *shrugs*

Fonecrusher

16th February 2011, 11:40 PM

Guys, guys, guys....This isn't your daddy's Transformers. It's a different interpretation of the Transformers universe including changes to certain characters personalities (look at Jetfire ferchrisakes!), so if you can't handle that then I suggest going home and crying to mumma. :p

I don't actually believe Prime was being unbotmane anyway. He basically had to totally **** Demolishor up before he would stop killing you, your family and your little pet Catilla too. What was he meant to do with the fubar, no doubt beyond repair Demolishor once he was finally stopped? "Oh come on guys, he's 10 times our height and weighs the same as a small country but come on, let's muck together and carry him home where we can start on the repairs!" *cue BB shooting himself in the face*

Yes, the execution itself may have seemed a bit psycho at the time but Prime's all about saving humanity and just witnessed hundreds of human lives go down the proverbial. Can you blame him for being a bit pissed?

Well said,

It's true ROTF sucked Devastator's very large balls, but I will defend the right for Prime or any other Autobot to kill Decepticons, even in a execution style manner. The Decepticons in the movieverse are unlike anything we have ever seen, they are far more sadistic and brutal then any other universe I know, they won't think twice about gutting a Autobot for the fun of it.

Perhaps the movie comics probably demonstrate this better than the actual movies themselves I guess: Demolisher slaughtered entire Autobot settlements on Cybertron, besides probably killing a load of people in China, he got what was coming to him, perhaps that factored in to Prime's decision to kill him?

Megatron is commiting mass genocide on his own people, the Autobots are on the verge of extinction. This is a war, at some point you gotta pick up a gun and start shooting, stop being a victim and start being a soldier.

FFN

17th February 2011, 04:58 AM

Unlike everybody else here, I have no problems with Optimus Prime executing Demolishor or Sideswipe slicing Sideways in half. Hey, they Decepticons are invading my planet, and the theme song says "The Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons."

When I heard Jetfire was in it, I got really excited. To see him include a walking stick in his transformation made me retch. I was all set to cast this disgust aside when he merged with Prime (wished there was an 'Optimal Optimus' reference, but no) I actually thought the inclusion of the walking stick landing gear was one of the more imaginative and "characterful" aspects of his design, and that it made him one of the few movie designs that where it emphasised his characterisation, rather than just a cool-looking robot.

Plus a Megatron without Welker isn't a Megatron at all. Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you :)

and that Fallen joke

I hoped it was something clever, Megatron falling in the first, getting his revenge and all that. Not literally a guy called 'Fallen'. Reminds me of 'Attack of the Clones'. (Not referring to you specifically) People like to complain that these movies have little to do with Transformers and don't refer to enough Transformery things. The inclusion of the Fallen, even though that was handled poorly (there were some significant changes from earlier drafts of the script which weakened the Fallen's relationship with Megatron among other things), was a pretty huge in-reference to hardcore fans.

My hatred was rather well documented at the SA meets (Ranting lunatic is probably an understatement)

My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.

Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak. We saw the rail gun on screen. It was far away and fired. Attackers do not need always need be on screen with their victims, especially with longer-range weapons. That would be bad cinematography.

Check out the science behind rail guns. They hurt very, very much, even to Transformers, who are only invincible to human weapons if you use cartoon or All Hail Megatron story logic.

SharkyMcShark

17th February 2011, 05:28 AM

Wrong forum? These movies not being epic cinema masterpieces isn't exactly news.

griffin

17th February 2011, 01:14 PM

Discussion topics before the release of the movie are best in this section in case it contains spoilers.

Unlike everybody else here, I have no problems with Optimus Prime executing Demolishor or Sideswipe slicing Sideways in half. Hey, they Decepticons are invading my planet, and the theme song says "The Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons."

It's not the killing that is upsetting people (because they are at war). It's the way it was done by certain Autobots.

Gutsman Heavy

17th February 2011, 01:37 PM

We saw the rail gun on screen. It was far away and fired. Attackers do not need always need be on screen with their victims, especially with longer-range weapons. That would be bad cinematography.

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax.

*after sex*
Honey, you thought that was an anti-climax? You should see how they killed Devastator!

Bartrim

17th February 2011, 01:44 PM

Yeah but you'd expect Optimus Prime to rise above petty feelings for revenge and act PROFESSIONAL.

For example say there's a guy who walks into a building and shoots innocent people, then the police arrive. Unless he's immediately threatening a life they're not going to get police snipers to take him down. First they're going to ask him to surrender. And if he DOES surrender, or say a cop shoots him in the leg and incapacitates him, would you expect the police to walk up to him and say, "Any last words?" before shooting him in the head at point blank range? Or would you expect the police to arrest him? If the police chose to shoot him, what do you think would happen to that officer?

Soldiers get into massive trouble if they abuse POWs in any way (e.g. humiliation, torture etc.). And the execution of POWs is considered barbaric.

Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.

Bartrim

17th February 2011, 01:47 PM

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax.

This I agree with. I was hoping for a massive robot fight with autobots running and shooting. Maybe Prime flying around taking shots and Devastator lumbering about causing damage. Maybe a casualty or two as well.

GoktimusPrime

17th February 2011, 03:50 PM

It is interesting that the movie novelisation just has Demolisher saying his final words after Prime's attack with no comment or kill shot from Prime. In the comic adaptation Furman has Prime say "I wish there was another way" as he delivers a fatal blow. Both seem more 'right' and suggest the adaptors weren't fans of that scene or the script was rewritten at a late stage.

Yep. That's a much better way of handling it (especially in the comic adaptation) than what happened in the movie. Just a short simple line like, "I wish there was another way." would have done the trick nicely.

I've interpretted the scene differently to yourself. Rather than simply being incapacitated, I see a Decepticon in a great deal of pain, beyond repair and close to death. The only thing Prime could do was to 'put him out of his misery' so to speak. He knew this and that's ultimately why he introduced Demolishor to his little friend. Perhaps he could have said something a bit better than 'Any last words?' but this is a war and sadly not everything happens the way it should.

Yeah but a small line just to indicate this to the audience would have made a massive difference, rather than leaving it ambiguous and looking like an execution.

I actually think it makes Prime a bit more interesting and less predictable than usual. *shrugs*
We had enough character contradictions in Beast Machines thanks. Don't need any more. Let's leave those seeds of the future lie buried in the past! :D

It's true ROTF sucked Devastator's very large balls, but I will defend the right for Prime or any other Autobot to kill Decepticons, even in a execution style manner. The Decepticons in the movieverse are unlike anything we have ever seen, they are far more sadistic and brutal then any other universe I know, they won't think twice about gutting a Autobot for the fun of it.
But the Autobots are meant to be the good guys - they're meant to have a higher standard of morals over the Decepticons. Not lower themselves to their same level. That's one thing that always separated Optimus Prime's other incarnations and made him distinct... as G1 Megatron once said in the episode "Heavy Metal War," Optimus Prime's only weakness is his sense of honour. In "Afterdeath" Optimus Prime voluntarily allowed himself to be killed (in fact he demanded it) after he lost to Megatron in a LAN game. Despite the fact that Megatron used a hack code to cheat, Optimus Prime insisted on keeping his deal with Megatron (that whoever died in the virtual world would have to die in reality too). And thus he was DESTROYED (and stayed dead until they rebuilt him as a Powermaster).

And we saw this in movieverse Optimus Prime too. In TF1 Optimus Prime repeatedly said that if he could not defeat Megatron then he would sacrifice himself by merging the AllSpark with his own Spark -- and even as Megatron came to finish him he told Sam to push the AllSpark into his chest. And when Sam decided to push it into Megatron's chest instead, Prime called out, "No Sam!" - and as mentioned before, Prime expressed regret to Megatron after his demise.

Perhaps the movie comics probably demonstrate this better than the actual movies themselves I guess: Demolisher slaughtered entire Autobot settlements on Cybertron, besides probably killing a load of people in China, he got what was coming to him, perhaps that factored in to Prime's decision to kill him?
Yeah I know Tales of the Fallen tried to justify the execution -- but of course, they wouldn't have had to do this if it didn't look like one in the first place. Obviously someone at IDW picked this up tried to see if they could try to justify the act. But as utterly merciless and relentless as Demolishor was, at the time he was completely incapacitated and no longer able to inflict any further harm or damage to anyone.

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Megatron is commiting mass genocide on his own people, the Autobots are on the verge of extinction.
And yet Optimus Prime vehemently tried his best NOT to kill him (choosing to sacrifice his life over Megatron's (Sam chose the other option)) -- but even then, Megatron was killed in mid-fight, not after he was defeated. Megatron, Bonecrusher, Grindor, Alice etc. were killed in combat, not executed after defeat.

This is a war, at some point you gotta pick up a gun and start shooting, stop being a victim and start being a soldier.
Yeah, you shoot at people who are shooting at you. You don't shoot them after the fight is finished.

Unlike everybody else here, I have no problems with Optimus Prime executing Demolishor or Sideswipe slicing Sideways in half. Hey, they Decepticons are invading my planet, and the theme song says "The Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons."
lol :D

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you :)
+1

(Not referring to you specifically) People like to complain that these movies have little to do with Transformers and don't refer to enough Transformery things. The inclusion of the Fallen, even though that was handled poorly (there were some significant changes from earlier drafts of the script which weakened the Fallen's relationship with Megatron among other things), was a pretty huge in-reference to hardcore fans.
Yeah but I think it was Paulbot who said that the character also needs to make sense and appeal to non-fans too. :/

We saw the rail gun on screen. It was far away and fired. Attackers do not need always need be on screen with their victims, especially with longer-range weapons. That would be bad cinematography.

Check out the science behind rail guns. They hurt very, very much, even to Transformers, who are only invincible to human weapons if you use cartoon or All Hail Megatron story logic.
The US Navy's Railgun fires a 3.2kg projectile at 2.4km/s, meaning that the rounds land "more swiftly and with little to no warning compared to a volley of Tomahawk cruise missiles."

I agree that it's good that the movies aren't treating the Transformers like Gods. Modern human weapons ARE powerful and can hurt the Transformers... but at the same time, it seemed all too rather convenient that there just happened to be a US Navy vessel in close proximity to the pyramids at that exact time - and Simmons knew about it of course. What luck! Simmons should've bought a Lotto ticket that day.

Prime is not a professional soldier. None of the autobots are. They have been forced into war to preserve their way of life. Even if they have been at war for a millenia they are still civilians fighting a war that haven't had the proper training to act professional.
Yeah sure, most of the Autobots were civilians to start off with, but you'd think after millenia of warfare they would have devised rules of engagement and become a more professional unit. Also, they did have some professional soldiers amongst their ranks like Ironhide - and also, Prime was not that merciless in the first movie.

Also what about the fact that Demolisher wouldn't go willingly. He resisted arrest and it took Prime and Ironhide to physically restrain him. Also where would he be incarcerated? He is a war criminal on the run because his leader is dead. Even when he was crippled he didn't even surrender he made threats about "The Fallen" taking over Earth.

I've got no problem with the execution of Demolisher.
Yeah but all those horrible things he did before he was finally taken down is something that should be dealt with later after he's captured as a POW. And if the Autobots had no means of detaining him, and given that he's refusing to relent, or if he's mortally wounded, then again have someone SAY something to indicate this (like in the comic adaptation).

No matter how brutal or threatening or unrelenting an enemy combatant is, if you kill them after they've been defeated, that's execution which has been considered barbaric since the Middle Ages. For instance, as aggressively violent and hostile as the Black Knight was, and even after he continued threatening and taunting King Arthur after he was defeated, Arthur Pendragon maintained the moral high ground and galloped (coconutted) away.

"Oh, oh, I see, running away then. You yellow b*****ds! Come back here and take what's coming to you. I'll bite your legs off!"

Bartrim

17th February 2011, 04:20 PM

Paulbot

17th February 2011, 05:14 PM

But again no one has complained about the G1 movie where Optimus Prime has Megatron in his sights ready to execute him? To me the only difference between that scene and the execution of Demolisher is Hot Rod ruining it for everyone.

I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

Bartrim

17th February 2011, 05:30 PM

I recall Optimus walking over slowly picking up his gun and when Megatron made a move, Prime raised quickly it to point at him to make him stop, a "freeze or I'll shoot". He had stopped Megatron, which is what he had set out to do. Megatron had fallen and he stood in victory, and despite how angry Prime would have been (with the death and destruction Megatron had caused at Autobot City) he didn't appear to be in a hurry to kill Megatron.

I have the DVD in my work laptop and have it on as background noise at least twice a week while I do purchase orders. The scene happens as follows
Kup "Finish him off Prime! Do it now"
A wounded Optimus Prime slowly (because he is wounded) over to his rifle and picks it up. Walks towards Megatron and rises his rifle.
Megatron "Grant me mercy Optimus Prime. I beg of you" slowly crawls for concealed weapon
Optimus Prime (tensing up- I presume ready to fire. Anyone who has fired a real weapon knows that you do brace yourself for recoil) "You who are with out mercy now plead for it? I thought you were made of sterner stuff."

Cue Hot Rod to ruin it all.

Not much difference if youu ask me.:rolleyes:

Paulbot

17th February 2011, 05:51 PM

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

GoktimusPrime

17th February 2011, 06:27 PM

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger. It could be argued that he was sorely tempted and maybe thought about executing Megatron, but the fact is that he didn't. For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. At that point he became morally torn -- his Jedi training telling him not to kill Dooku, but Palpatine goading Anakin to kill him. In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").

Had Anakin had the fortitude to resist Palpatine's temptation and not kill Dooku, then who knows - he may never have embarked on his journey to the Dark Side and become Darth Vader. Luke Skywalker managed to succeed here were Anakin failed -- defeating Vader with his hand chopped off, Luke had the perfect opportunity to kill Vader. Palpatine even told him to kill his father and replace him as the new Sith, but Luke threw his light sabre away and chose the moral high ground telling the Emperor that he had failed to turn him to the Dark Side (so then the Emperor decided to kill Luke).

And I've never been the biggest fan of G1 cartoon Prime, aside from being a one-dimensional archetype (as many G1 cartoon characters are), he was often contradictory in his standards anyway, even before Transformers the Movie. Optimus Prime supposedly believes in freedom being the right of all sentient beings, yet when the Dinobots were created and proved to be troublesome because of their limited intelligence, Optimus Prime ordered that the Dinobots be shut down and indefinitely imprisoned by burying them in a cavern! What?!? (o_O) There was NO discussion about how to rehabilitate or assist the Dinobots, simply, that they "must never be activated again!" Nice.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up.
Pretty much. It's like say when Coalition forces found Saddam Hussein in hiding... imagine if the soldiers who found him decided to execute him there and then.

Robzy

17th February 2011, 08:31 PM

Beast Wars Megatron, the best Megatron, would like a word with you :)

+1

-2 :D If you guys don't want him, I'll take Welkertron anyday!

Not much difference if youu ask me.:rolleyes:

Even so, with Megatron's attack on the city we had just watched many beloved Autobots (Ironhide, Wheeljack, Prowl, Ratchet) killed so the audience wouldn't have been too upset if Prime had pulled the trigger.

Demolisher was sitting around in hiding until NEST turned up. Regardless of what post-movie comics might have given Demolisher as backstory, the audience hadn't built up any anger towards the character that made us feel he deserved to die. And that's a film making decision. If the Autobots had arrived to a scene where hundreds were dead due to this Decepticon's rampage it would have been more acceptable in film terms to see the character killed.

The difference is that G1 Prime didn't actually pull the trigger.
[snip]
For example in Revenge of the Sith Anakin Skywalker had a defeated Count Dooku at his mercy with two light sabres against his neck. [snip]In the end Anakin gave into the Dark Side (for a moment) and killed Dooku - although immediately after that he acknowledged that it was the wrong thing to do as he was an unarmed and defeated opponent ("It's not the Jedi way.").
Yeah, I agree with PB and GP. It's totally different IMO. I've never read any "extra material" for ROTF (shouldn't have to in order to watch a film :rolleyes:) and I have no idea why Prime killed him - except for because (apparently) he's doing bad things??? :confused: Ridiculous! In TF:TM the audience has seen Megatron personally slaughter Ironhide, Brawn and many others, not to mention leading an attack which has seen the deaths of countless others. We, as an audience, rally behind a champion to put a stop to this merciless killing spree. It's made even more tragic by the fact Prime fails... Megatron still (cunning as ever) secretly crawls towards the gun, raising the tension and ultimately kills Prime. It's a perfect cinematic moment... set the audience up for one thing (Prime saves the day) only to pull the rug out from underneath (Hot Rod gets in the way, Megs wins, Prime dies). It's more unexpected and tragic... Prime could have (and should have) ended it immediately, but he hesitated... and it cost him his life. He died a hero, instead of living and looking like an a$$ in ROTF. It's these subtle character elements that make us love characters or hate them. How many American action films, for example, have you seen where the hero has a chance to kill the villain but instead shows pity... only to have the baddie pull out a hidden weapon from his shoe, which causes the hero to fire a reactive shot! BANG! He's a hero... he didn't kill the guy in cold blood, he was only reacting to the bad guy's sneaky attack!

At the end of the day, it's all moot anyway. We're arguing about whether or not Prime has certain characteristics. The reality is, ROTF Prime was a construct of Michael Bay's direction... a guy who doesn't know or care enough about Transformers and their history anyway!

kurdt_the_goat

17th February 2011, 08:38 PM

What exactly was Prime's choice? It's not like Demolisher had an "off" switch. If Prime didn't kill him, someone else would have to, lest he continue demolishing things!

loophole

17th February 2011, 09:23 PM

shokwave2

17th February 2011, 09:50 PM

As Doubledealer said, this isn't a G1 remake. Try to forget what you know. G1 Optimus isn't the same as Movie Optimus. The audience came to see an action movie. If the Autobots didn't fire a bullet and took every decepticon they encountered hostage, or let them go, it would be a pretty boring movie.

The first movie taught everyone (the general public) that Autobots = good, Decepticons = bad. They fought on Cybertron and they'll fight here. If you haven't liked the way the Autobots presented themselves in the last movie, then you sure won't like the next movie. Take no prisoners.:cool:

Ode to a Grasshopper

17th February 2011, 11:09 PM

See, I didn't like the 1st Bay movie and haven't seen RotF besides the chase and execution scene, but I am quite looking forward to DotM. Why?
For the toys.
RotF was, by all account, a craptastic movie for all the reasons listed here and more, but it gave us some awesome toys. Ransack/Divebomb, Ejector (I mean, a toaster TF? How cool is that?), Full-o'-guns Ironhide, Bludgeon (well, sorta), Brawn, the Ice-cream twins (the characters might suck but an ice-cream truck alt-mode is pretty sweet) - while they're mostly non-movie characters we did get a few gems out of this. Add to this some of the Leader-class ones I haven't picked up like Buster Prime and Leader Starscream and it's been a pretty decent toyline. I'd still prefer Animated or Classicsverse anyday and Prime looks rather interesting, but RotF still gave us a sweet haul of plasticy goodness.
And from what we've seen so far DotM is going to be even better. If we have to suffer another crappy Bay movie to get a sweet snowmobile scout, or a new Powerglide, so be it says I. I just hope the movie is even worse so I can get really smashed one day and laugh at it.

GoktimusPrime

18th February 2011, 10:28 AM

What exactly was Prime's choice? It's not like Demolisher had an "off" switch. If Prime didn't kill him, someone else would have to, lest he continue demolishing things!
"You left me no choice brother." - Optimus Prime (Transformers, 2007)

Again, a simple line to indicate that he regretted this action would have helped make this clear to the audience. The way it was portrayed arguably almost made it look like Prime was revelling in the task at hand. As Paulbot pointed out, the comic adaptation of ROTF handled this better.

As Doubledealer said, this isn't a G1 remake. Try to forget what you know. G1 Optimus isn't the same as Movie Optimus.
Fine, but even if we ONLY looked at Movie Prime we can still see contradictions. In the first movie Optimus Prime expressed deep regret over the fact that Megatron was killed in the Mission City battle. He killed Bonecrusher in the middle of combat, NOT as an execution. Thus to see Optimus Prime execute Demolishor in ROTF contradicts the way that Prime was portrayed in the first movie.

The audience came to see an action movie. If the Autobots didn't fire a bullet and took every decepticon they encountered hostage, or let them go, it would be a pretty boring movie.
I don't see how any of that justifies the execution. All they needed to do was have him say something like, "I wish there was another way," and then shoot Demolishor. The audience still gets the gratification of seeing Prime pop a 'con, and at the same time not be concerned about seeing a massive contradictory shift in the character.

Remember that it's character development that drives a story. Crappy character development = crappy story-telling (re: narrative).

The first movie taught everyone (the general public) that Autobots = good, Decepticons = bad. They fought on Cybertron and they'll fight here.
So what? See my previous analogies about Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

If you haven't liked the way the Autobots presented themselves in the last movie, then you sure won't like the next movie. Take no prisoners.:cool:
You must be a big fan of Dai Atlas then. Actually, I like Dai Atlas too... there's nothing wrong with the "take no prisoners" policy per se... prior to the Middle Ages it was standard practice to either slaughter POWs or make them into slaves.

What irks me here though is the character-contradiction. If I saw G1 Dai Atlas mercilessly slaying Decepticons, okay fine - I can accept that. That's a long established character trait (even if most Japanese fans hate him for it)... but considering that in TF1 we saw OP say stuff like "Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings" (not just Autobots) and then "You left me no choice, brother" -- it strongly establishes OP as this compassionate character who regrets the use of violence and lethal force (and only does so out of necessity). TF1 also portrayed OP as one who utterly refused to sacrifice his high moral values, as seen with his plan to unite the AllSpark with his own Spark should he fail to stop Megatron. The OP we saw in Shanghai felt like a completely different character. An OP who's willing to execute a defeated Decepticon foe would surely NOT hesitate to shove the AllSpark into Megatron's chest himself, let alone express regret after Sam had done it.

Also, even if Movie Optimus Prime is a different character from other Optimus Primes, if Michael Bay had respect for the character and the franchise he would be mindful of what the character is meant to be. Imagine how Batman fans would feel if they made a movie where Batman packed heat and just shot the baddies like the Punisher. The Dark Knight would have turned out a lot differently if he'd just shot the Joker. You could argue that ya know, it's a movie franchise so it's a different universe blah blah blah, but I can bet you a LOT of Batman fans would be urinated.

Bartrim

18th February 2011, 10:42 AM

Really Gok comparing Hitler and Hussein to Transformers?

You don't think you are over analysing this a touch?:rolleyes:

GoktimusPrime

18th February 2011, 11:04 AM

Hells no!

Anyway...

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

It's like say when Coalition forces found Saddam Hussein in hiding... imagine if the soldiers who found him decided to execute him there and then.

Ode to a Grasshopper

18th February 2011, 01:10 PM

What irks me here though is the character-contradiction. If I saw G1 Dai Atlas mercilessly slaying Decepticons, okay fine - I can accept that. That's a long established character trait (even if most Japanese fans hate him for it)... but considering that in TF1 we saw OP say stuff like "Freedom is the right of ALL sentient beings" (not just Autobots) and then "You left me no choice, brother" -- it strongly establishes OP as this compassionate character who regrets the use of violence and lethal force (and only does so out of necessity). TF1 also portrayed OP as one who utterly refused to sacrifice his high moral values, as seen with his plan to unite the AllSpark with his own Spark should he fail to stop Megatron. The OP we saw in Shanghai felt like a completely different character. An OP who's willing to execute a defeated Decepticon foe would surely NOT hesitate to shove the AllSpark into Megatron's chest himself, let alone express regret after Sam had done it. Maybe it was an evil clone Prime Problem style.:p Possible plot thread for DotM!

Also, even if Movie Optimus Prime is a different character from other Optimus Primes, if Michael Bay had respect for the character and the franchise...BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Really Gok comparing Hitler and Hussein to Transformers?

You don't think you are over analysing this a touch?:rolleyes:Y'know, I've never seen Goki and Megan Fox in the same room at the same time...hmm...:p

GoktimusPrime

18th February 2011, 01:47 PM

Y'know, I've never seen Goki and Megan Fox in the same room at the same time...hmm...:p

No need to get jealous.

There's plenty of Goki to go around. ;)

Demonac

18th February 2011, 02:36 PM

So much over-analysing of what is essentially a 2 hour advertisement for:
1. The US military,
2. G.M. &
3. Hasbro Transformers (in that order).

kurdt_the_goat

18th February 2011, 03:58 PM

This comic springs to mind whenever i see discussions like this

http://australian-postcodes.com/2011-01-25-catmorpherspcoe.jpg

Bartrim

18th February 2011, 04:08 PM

LOL:D

shokwave2

18th February 2011, 06:00 PM

For example, if Allied Forces had managed to capture Hitler, would they execute him on the spot or arrest him so that he can stand trial for war crimes and crimes against humanity?

Back then, i'd say 99% chance they would of placed a bullet in his head, and i would do the same. Waste of time and money putting him on trial, just like 99% of todays criminals.

The movies are getting over-analysed and compared to old-school TF. 90% of the audience probably haven't seen G1 so they don't care if Prime doesn't have a heart. Kids these days want tough good-guys, not by-the-book heroes. We don't what prime went through in-between movies. Maybe he was tortured by Demolisher so this was payback, or maybe there was a bounty out on his head for his death. All this shows us is that Prime is serious and wants the Decepticons gone or dead. Yes he's changed since the first movie but that's life. Move along.

UltraMarginal

18th February 2011, 06:29 PM

This comic springs to mind whenever i see discussions like this

<snip>

+5 internets to you sir

I never thought I'd write this but her goes,

ROFL. LMAO.

that is a cracker.

FFN

18th February 2011, 08:59 PM

My issue was that it's a massive cop out, lets have the biggest con ever, that would make an awesome fight! But instead they snuffed him with an with a pew pew cannon. It was BORING.

Surely no one enjoyed seeing a cannon (regardless of location) kill devastator. It's the new definition of anti-climax. I thought the rail gun was awesome, because rail guns are awesome. Movie Devastator kinda sucked so I didn't mind him dying to it terribly.

I've seen some comments from that time from non-fans who were like "HOLY CRAP DID YOU SEE THAT RAIL GUN? THAT WAS AWESOME!"

griffin

19th February 2011, 02:04 AM

Considering the rendering of the Devastator character was so memory intensive that it actually destroyed computers at ILM, I'd imagine that it was necessary for it to be destroyed so easily, because a full-on fight scene wouldn't have been possible to render.

BTW, if 1986 Optimus were just as callous towards Megatron as 2009 Optimus was to Demolishor, he would have shot him as soon as he pointed his rifle at him, instead of covering him like police do of a surrendering offender... long enough in fact for Megatron to stall and grab a weapon. IMO

Oilspill

19th February 2011, 06:20 AM

I love that this thread began with "I don't wan't to start a fight but...", and here we are 7 pages and many LOLs later.

From reading these posts, I conclude that the movies are the shattered glass universe. The Autobots are clearly the bad guys, they remorselessly kill many, many Decepticons over the course of the films. The Decepticons only kill Jazz and wound Jetfire. And to be fair, Megs wasn't thinking straight when he killed Jazz. He just woke up after being frozen in ice for years, and probably had one hell of an ice-cream headache.

The Decepticons allegedly start a civil war on their home planet, but who tells us this? Prime does. That's the evil Autobot propaganda machine at work fellas. Don't trust the lies! The lies!

FFN

19th February 2011, 06:20 AM

I'd consider ILM's claims that rendering Devastator "destroyed" computers to be hyperbole for the sake of marketing hype. To my knowledge, modern desktop computers, unless they are very poorly ventilated and poorly designed, will usually automatically shut down if heat becomes a dangerous, critical issue.

I'd expect ILM's renderfarms to have these basic self-preservation features, and be housed in climate-controlled conditions.

GoktimusPrime

19th February 2011, 10:26 AM

The movies are getting over-analysed and compared to old-school TF. 90% of the audience probably haven't seen G1 so they don't care if Prime doesn't have a heart.
But even if you'd never heard of Transformers before seeing the movies, ROTF Prime still has a contradictory character shift from TF1 which doesn't seem to make sense.

Kids these days want tough good-guys, not by-the-book heroes.
I don't agree. You have your archetypal heroes (e.g. Superman, Captain America etc.) and you have anti-heroes (e.g. Batman, Wolverine etc.). Optimus Prime is traditionally meant to be a hero -- the Messiah Archetype. The movie universe retained a lot of this aspect with Prime's repeated compunction to sacrifice himself (e.g. wanting to merge the Cube with his chest, sacrificing himself to save Sam in the forest). So in many ways the movies establish Prime as a hero, not an antihero... yet what he did in Shanghai was more of an antiheroic act. Now if movie writers want to establish Optimus Prime as an antihero in their universe, okay... just do it. The issue I'm raising here is that MOVIE Optimus Prime (ignoring all other Optimus Primes) is heroic in the first movie and for most of ROTF... then he decides to execute Demolishor. Right.

We don't what prime went through in-between movies. Maybe he was tortured by Demolisher so this was payback,
Cos revenge is such a heroic trait. For the record, DemolishOr never tortured Prime. Demolishor certainly was a mass-murdering terror during the Cybertronian wars as he was a shock trooper who specifically set out to slaughter settlements of Autobot refugees. One of the few (if only) survivors of his onslaught was Sideswipe.

or maybe there was a bounty out on his head for his death.
Not as far as we know.

All this shows us is that Prime is serious and wants the Decepticons gone or dead.
Yes but the Optimus Prime we knew from the first movie would only kill if he felt there were no other option.

Yes he's changed since the first movie but that's life. Move along.
Unexplained/illogical character change = BAD story telling.

You can have characters change, but they need to explained to the audience. For example:
1: Anakin Skywalker.
Phantom Menace = selfless innocent child... separated from mother
Attack of the Clones = frustrated gifted youth who has feelings of greed (re: being held back) and attachment (re: mother)
Revenge of the Sith = feelings for attachment (re: Padme) and feelings of impotency lead to his fall to the Dark Side

2: Frodo Baggins
A naive and innocent youth whose contact with the One Ring gradually instills him with greed (it could have eventually made him like Gollum if he'd kept it long enough)

If they want to change Optimus Prime from being a hero (as seen in the first movie) to an antihero, then the audience deserves an explanation. It's just basic story-telling.

The Autobots are clearly the bad guys, they remorselessly kill many, many Decepticons over the course of the films.
There's a big difference between killing an enemy combatant in the middle of a fight, and executing a P.O.W.

The Decepticons only kill Jazz and wound Jetfire. And to be fair, Megs wasn't thinking straight when he killed Jazz. He just woke up after being frozen in ice for years, and probably had one hell of an ice-cream headache.
Jazz was attacking Megatron when he got killed. Jazz presented Megatron with lethal force and Megatron returned in kind. Jazz was KIA as a soldier... he was not an executed captive.

Bartrim

22nd February 2011, 09:14 AM

Back onto DOTM which I believe was the original point of this thread, One thing I am excited about is the wreckers. A couple of things have taken some of the excitement away from me.

-I thought the wreckers would be like the awesome commando group thats why their alt modes were armed to the teeth. Since seeing Bumblebee with just as many guns it almost seems to take that something special away from them.

-Their robot modes. Having seen some toy images of the bot modes making them look like redneck NASCAR fans. Mullets, beards, it even appears that Leadfoot has a beer gut for crying out loud.

There are many liberties that Michael Bay takes with the Transformers franchise that I have let slide because I am a fan of the movies. This however is not ok IMO. The wreckers are commandos. Seeing these bot modes makes me think they'll be redneck cowboys that will rush in and get themselves killed.

On that thought I do think they need autobot casualties to make it more real since the Decepticons are the fighters and the autobots aren't. I remember thinking after ROTF "Hang on not one autobot died in that. If the autobots could handle the cons this easily wouldn't the war have ended a long time ago?"

liegeprime

22nd February 2011, 10:34 AM

Hot dog! We have a wiener!

No doubt hasbro loosened the strings when their purse was bursting at the seams thanks to Bay.

+1 yep he's raking in the cash why spoil it ei? Hasbro is after all gonna need cash to keep on going globally.

My hatred was rather well documented at the SA meets (Ranting lunatic is probably an understatement)
My general distaste for ROTF can be summed up as such.
Devastator was killed by an off-screen cannon.

OFF
SCREEN
CANNON

Weak man, f'ing weak.

Guess they havent yet earned enough dough to "invest" on wide screen cameras:p... blame it on the director...oh wait everyone already does heheh

Guys, guys, guys....This isn't your daddy's Transformers. It's a different interpretation of the Transformers universe including changes to certain characters personalities (look at Jetfire ferchrisakes!), so if you can't handle that then I suggest going home and crying to mumma. :p

I don't actually believe Prime was being unbotmane anyway. He basically had to totally **** Demolishor up before he would stop killing you, your family and your little pet Catilla too. What was he meant to do with the fubar, no doubt beyond repair Demolishor once he was finally stopped? "Oh come on guys, he's 10 times our height and weighs the same as a small country but come on, let's muck together and carry him home where we can start on the repairs!" *cue BB shooting himself in the face*

Yes, the execution itself may have seemed a bit psycho at the time but Prime's all about saving humanity and just witnessed hundreds of human lives go down the proverbial. Can you blame him for being a bit pissed?

+++1 why bother lugging the big thug, just blam hmand get the useable parts;)... wouldnt want that tech going into the hands of the primitive flesh creatures with the great capacity for war, right... I support Bayprime on this... it's war people not a playdate... killing is part of war. Best cannon ever IMO they shouldve made a toy for it, Id get one.

DEMOLISHOR: I know you're not going to kill me, Optimus. Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, right?

<BLAM!>

PRIME: Now you're free, bitch.

Heck yeah!! You never know that might be prime's ( this one version) interpretation of his "motto" when applied to 'cons after all he is "alien". Who can say that isnt how he interprets it. Warpath is his best bud.:D:D

Though it wouldve been nice to have tortured him first for more info of what he was ranting about this "fallen" guy...ah well. oh and Jetfire's still a decepticon - who happens to help them so yeah ... Thanks old guy (Prime in his mind thinking silently, mebbe) you served your purpose ( then Prime discrads the used up husk of Jetfire heheheh) but IM IN THE MIDDLE OF GETTING A BUTT KICKING FIGHT TO WORRY ABOUT YOUR BODY PARTS GETTING ITS DUE. After that, well not that interesting enough to warrant a whole scene added to the film, so mebbe that's been edited out by Bay - after all an honorary funeral wouldve been "weak" in his "directorial eyes" seeing as there's no ""SPLOSIONS" .... ROTF is a weak film with little plot for profit purposes guys deal with it otherwise go be G1 Ultramagnus' drinking buddy.

DOTM - no Im not excited,Ill go see it once the DVD comes out cheaply.... I watched ROTF on he last week of it in theater's when I was soooo bored at home and needed to get out, ended up sleeping on some parts of the movie - particularly the desert running , running,running,running so freakishly slowmo you want to shoot them and be done with it. Oh also just FYI you dont use the "paddles" to someone who flatlines, you do CPR.... but then that wouldnt be as dramatic and all that.... again this DOTM movie is as ever will be a "weak film with little plot for profit purposes" so No Im not excited.

Skullcruncher

22nd February 2011, 11:29 AM

But even if you'd never heard of Transformers before seeing the movies, ROTF Prime still has a contradictory character shift from TF1 which doesn't seem to make sense.

It doesn't need to make sense, the movie is about giant transforming robots.

What % of the movie goers would even compare primes character from the first movie to the second? I loved it - finally prime had the guts to get rid of a decepticon instead of sitting their waiting for the deception to finish talking and then let him make his escape for anyother day g1 style.

ROTF is a weak film with little plot for profit purposes guys deal with it otherwise go be G1 Ultramagnus' drinking buddy.

Hooray! Thread won.

GoktimusPrime

22nd February 2011, 04:32 PM

It doesn't need to make sense, the movie is about giant transforming robots.
*sigh* This is a big problem with Michael Bay's mentality -- seeing the Transformers as set pieces (re: giant transforming robots) rather than treating them as characters (which is what better TF writers like Simon Furman does).

Just because it's Transformers does NOT mean we should lower our expectations and excuse poorly written stories. Transformers has had a long history of excellent stories written for it (e.g. Target: 2006, Time Wars, Beast Wars, Last Stand of the Wreckers et al.). I can totally forgive changing certain things about Transformers to give it a mass-market appeal, fine... I get that. It's where Transformers: The Movie failed because it was too fan-centric. But having a broad appeal doesn't mean you have to make it "mindless."

There are plenty of other fantasy/scifi franchises out there which have been adapted to movies and been successful in the mainstream while still being fairly true to the spirit of that franchise (e.g. Lord of the Rings, X-Men, The Chronicles of Narnia, Harry Potter etc.). And I think the first Transformers movie succeeded in doing this... for the most part it did capture the spirit of the G1 cartoon quite well. But I thought that ROTF started straying away from this, and I would personally like to see DOTM go back to this.

What % of the movie goers would even compare primes character from the first movie to the second? I loved it - finally prime had the guts to get rid of a decepticon instead of sitting their waiting for the deception to finish talking and then let him make his escape for anyother day g1 style.
Oh yes, because killing a HELPLESS defeated foe is totally courageous. (-_-)
Make his escape?? He was incapacitated. He was in no condition to leg it - and probably would have died from his wounds, thus killing him straight away might have been more merciful (and if so, this should have been stated - as it was in the comic adaptation of ROTF, which I believe was written by Furman IIRC).

What you're talking about is more like what Dai Atlas did in Transformers Zone. Dai Atlas would cut down Decepticons rather than letting them escape and come back another day.

Hooray! Thread won.
Yay, not having standards makes everything feel better! :D