Are Gestalts Stupid?

[Verno]

As individual robots they might be quite intelligent, but when merged into their combined forms, IE Predaking, Devastator etc, is the resultant robot a less intelligent creature? If so, why?

I'm looking mainly at the G1 combiners here.

[Paulbot]

It's not always the case, Computron is smarter than the individual robots, and I think it's something that came more from the cartoon, where the combined forms of the bad guys were shown as stupid to make them hulking threats. Like with Trypticon, the bigger the bad guy was, the dumber they seemed to be.

The Autobot Gestalts didn't seem to have the same problem in the cartoon. And in the Tech Specs and Comic the Gestalts of either side were never shown as that stupid as a rule, but there were a few that were.

It kind of makes sense though that if you have five (or six) minds and different personalities trying to control one body, you're going to have trouble. The Powercore Combiners probably are on to a smart thing by having mindless drones to combine with.

[Sky Shadow]

In Western G1 continuity, Defensor is probably the sanest of the robots generally considered to be gestalts. Predaking is also a great meld of his component parts. Computron isn't stupid, but he's just so intelligent that he analyses every move to the tiniest minutia which makes him appear slow and behave slowly. Monstructor has an Intelligence rank of 5, but beyond that he didn't really get much facetime in the 80s. The rest of the main G1 gestalts (Bruticus, Devastator, Menasor, Superion and Piranacon are either dumb or psychologically unstable.)

[UltraMarginal]

I think what Paulbot is saying is the generally accepted rule, the gestalts lose apparent intelligence due to the five minds having to work together.

it's more of a dexterity issue than intelligence, i'm assuming.

I look at it as this, if I were a 100foot tall robot made up of 6 huge construction vehicles that could literally tear an aoutobot base apart with my bare hands, I too would not be able to resist saying "Devastator Smash".:D

[Thanatos]

I'm assuming because at least from a story-telling perspective, having combiners that had the combined intelligence of the individuals would be for want of a better term, god-like. There would be no need to separate as the combiner would have no disadvantages. By making them stupid, they become a "last ditch effort", whereby the risk is the amount of power vs the unpredictability of the gestalt.

There's also the concept of dissociative identity disorder (formerly classified as multiple personality disorder), where the gestalt is suffering from up to 6 different personalities and intelligences. As such this particular form of identity disorder would result in the gestalt going "crazy" from the multiple voices inside it's head. The main issue I feel is that the fiction always seems to refer to the gestalt as a a separate entity to the individuals rather than a summation of the separate individuals.

This is assuming of course that these robots are similar in any way to the psychology of a human. Personally, I believe that the gestalts should work the same way as computers - that each multiple piece (ie more RAM or more internal memory space) would simply add to the overall picture. That's why I was always a fan of Computron who represents what I'm talking about, however it includes the addendum that because of the separate intelligences, it takes a long time to make a decision, similar to the combiners being stupid after the combination, it gives it a disadvantage, coming back to the basis for the storytelling.

Overall I'd say it's a story telling decision, and since this is a show originally aimed at children, it's safe to say this gave them human traits and human flaws. It also really gives the individual robots a personality, which means that those watching the show don't think "the gestalt is far better than each of the parts, why bother caring about each individual when the combination is far superior".

[Sky Shadow]

I think what Paulbot is saying is the generally accepted rule, the gestalts lose apparent intelligence due to the five minds having to work together.

it's more of a dexterity issue than intelligence, i'm assuming.

It's also a personality thing. The Constructicons are individually opinionated and Devastator is only able to do anything other than "smash" if they actually agree on a course of action. Piranacon's components are too like minded and so he just focuses on a single hunt and ignores everything else. The other four Stunticons hate Motormaster so much that it means Menasor is an emo psychopath. Computron feels the need to analyse everything in a mental summit between his five Technobots and so it takes him minutes to do anything.

[Hursticon]

I agree with everyone so far as to say that really this sort of a question should be looked at with a case by case basis. ;)
The Techspecs did a monumentally better job of defining each Component personality and subsequent Gestalt personailty, but the cartoon only seemed to use these as a canvas to paint a diminished, debatedly handicapped and child-friendly portrait of the subjects in question. :rolleyes:

I'd be curious to see what the proper personalities of Tripredcus and Magnaboss would be like, especially Magnaboss seeming as he is supposedly the combination of G1 Ironhide, Silverbolt and Prowl in upgraded, Maximal forms! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

As Sky Shadow said, it boils down to the personalities of the individual gestalt members and also how their personalities interact with each other. One interesting feature that the Micromaster tech specs had was ratings for "Teamwork" and "Cooperation." Gestalt teams who have higher degrees of teamwork and cooperation combine to form more psychologically and emotionally stable gestalt robots (e.g. Protectobots, Predacons), whereas those with poor teamwork and cooperation combine to form mentally unstable psychopaths (e.g. Constructicons, Stunticons).

I wouldn't say that Predaking is necessarily stupid -- he's no Rhodes scholar, but I wouldn't say he's an imbecile either. The tech specs basically describes him as the perfect fighter who moves with feral animal-like ferocity and precision. One would imagine that watching Predaking in action would be like watching a massive predator like say a Great White... moving with surprising speed and savagery that belies his immense size. Each individual Predacon may be incredible fighters in their own right, but when combined they become an incredible fighting force to be reckoned with... it's like making a giant boxer by combining Bruce Lee, Mohammed Ali, Chuck Norris, Alexander the Great, and King Leonidas... phwoar! :D

[Quickstrike]

especially Magnaboss seeming as he is supposedly the combination of G1 Ironhide, Silverbolt and Prowl in upgraded, Maximal forms! :D

Man I hate IDW's Beast Wars stuff.

[Verno]

I'd be curious to see what the proper personalities of Tripredcus and Magnaboss would be like, especially Magnaboss seeming as he is supposedly the combination of G1 Ironhide, Silverbolt and Prowl in upgraded, Maximal forms! :D

Indeed. What does the advance in technology play in the combination of processing power and such in 'newer' gestalts.

Magmatron is the obvious exception. One mind controlling 3 forms through his Miotic spark.

[Hursticon]

Man I hate IDW's Beast Wars stuff.

It beats Beast Machines and that's based purely on the wiki. :p


Indeed. What does the advance in technology play in the combination of processing power and such in 'newer' gestalts.

Magmatron is the obvious exception. One mind controlling 3 forms through his Miotic spark.

It's curious isn't it? - Because so many newer and more organic based Technologies would be at play! :D
Magmatron I think is cool as hell because he takes Shockwaves dodgy Duocon Tech and pushes it that 1 step further and to far better results! ;):cool:

[GoktimusPrime]

Tripredacus would be a fairly formidable opponent considering that the 3 Predacon generals seem to interact with each other fairly well without bickering. After all, they all ultimately serve the will of Unicron anyway.

I reckon the dopiest gestalt in TF history has gotta be Tri-Rex.

[Hursticon]

Tripredacus would be a fairly formidable opponent considering that the 3 Predacon generals seem to interact with each other fairly well without bickering. After all, they all ultimately serve the will of Unicron anyway.

Indeed, that one-off art piece commisioned for one of the art books makes him look insanely frightening from a Human perspective, let alone a Bot's! :eek:
As they also serve as the main Predacon Governing Body and have displayed that they all share the same ultimate goal, I agree that their 'mind meld' would be one that not even Tarantulas would try to test. ;)


I reckon the dopiest gestalt in TF history has gotta be Tri-Rex.

Dare I ask what that incredibly 'Mighty Morphin' sounding character is about or his looks? :o

[GoktimusPrime]

Indeed, that one-off art piece commisioned for one of the art books makes him look insanely frightening from a Human perspective, let alone a Bot's! :eek:
Beast Wars Transformers are, relatively speaking, not a whole lot larger than modern day humans. e.g. Rattrap is 1.8m - 'bout your height. Although that's small by BWTF standards. :p But then when you see the BWTFs amidst G1TFs (like when they're in the Ark), the G1 TFs are absolutely massive. Still... prehistoric humans would be pretty tiny compared to modern day humans (even humans from not that long ago were fairly short, e.g. the average Roman soldier was only about 1.5m tall).

BWTFs' heights are comparable to the G1 Micromasters... indeed BW continuity suggests that the "Maximal Upgrade" was something that evolved from Micromaster technology -- downsizing Transformers to make them more fuel efficient (hence why when BW Megatron first entered the Ark and looked upon the G1 TFs, he referred to them as "archaic Energon guzzlers!").

At least the BWTFs didn't go about mass-shifting as much as the Micromasters did... like ya know, Roadhandler who transforms into a car large enough for a human (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cecilia_Santiago) to ride in, but in robot mode is small enough to engage in pro-wrestling with a human! (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Jake_%22The_Jackhammer%22_Jackson) :eek: And G1 gestalts absolutely use mass-shifting to make themselves way bigger in gestalt mode than they should be!

Aaah... where would G1 be without mass shifting? Probably something like this...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard01.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard02.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard03.jpg


As they also serve as the main Predacon Governing Body and have displayed that they all share the same ultimate goal, I agree that their 'mind meld' would be one that not even Tarantulas would try to test. ;)
Tarantulas also serves Unicron anyway. ;)


Dare I ask what that incredibly 'Mighty Morphin' sounding character is about or his looks? :o
No you may not dare ask!

Oh... okay then :p
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Tri-Rex <--warning: link contains the lamest Transformer gestalt ever. I accept no responsibility for what you are about to behold should you choose to click on that link. <spooky.music>

[Deonasis]

I have always liked how the Constructicons create and yet Devastator destroys.
But with the same logic, I am equally happy the Terrorcons do not merge to form Prince Charming.

Alot of gesalts do act dumber or seem low on emotional intelligence but they do not merge to play chess, they mostly merge when action is needed, when brute force is needed.

[GoktimusPrime]

I have always liked how the Constructicons create and yet Devastator destroys.
Mostly true, although the Constructicons do their fair share of destruction too (e.g. Crystal City). Scrapper's the main "creative genius" of the group (as demonstrated in the episode "Triple Takeover" where he designed the labyrint and fashioned himself a throne made from Autobots)


Alot of gesalts do act dumber or seem low on emotional intelligence but they do not merge to play chess, they mostly merge when action is needed, when brute force is needed.
Though in the case of the Technobots they can combine to form Computron if additional smarts are needed to figure something out.

An interesting feature with the Scramble gestalts is that if a member from another team - particularly from an enemy faction - attaches to a gestalt, then that gestalt ends up becoming incapacitated. I suppose not only would that foreign limb refuse to move cooperatively, but the mind of that member would immediately conflict with that of the rest of the group, thus fracturing the gestalt's mind. Like when Menasor deployed Dead End to connect as Superion's leg (displacing Fireflight) -- it rendered Superion totally helpless. Under normal circumstances if remaining in gestalt mode wasn't a good idea, one would think that they'd immediately disengage, but if Superion's mind was thrown into chaos, then perhaps he was unable to perform a relatively simply function such as separation. Superion couldn't even remain standing with his Stunticon leg.

[Verno]

Magmatron I think is cool as hell because he takes Shockwaves dodgy Duocon Tech and pushes it that 1 step further and to far better results! ;):cool:

What is this duocon tech you speak of?

[liegeprime]

What is this duocon tech you speak of?

Shockwave was the one performing experiments in transformation technology. He is the brains behind triple changer tech and duocons tech - although duocons tech si dodgy coz it splits the personality of the TF into the two separate vehicles rather than remain intact as one - like Magmatron.

[Paulbot]

Shockwave was the one performing experiments in transformation technology. He is the brains behind triple changer tech and duocons tech - although duocons tech si dodgy coz it splits the personality of the TF into the two separate vehicles rather than remain intact as one - like Magmatron.
Note: the above applies to Dreamwave's comics only and not any other G1 continuity.

In Marvel G1 comics the Duocons (well Flywheels for sure) were triple changers!

[Golden Phoenix]

I always thought the mind melding thing was silly. It just made things complicated.

I liked the Energon combiners because it was just the torso getting some extra power. The limbs weren't shown to be intelligent.
But I always thought if they were they meerly added analysis for the torso to take into consideration. But it would have been the torso's mind in control.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I'm far from an expert when it comes to gestalts but don't the minds of the components merge into one with each one contributing something diffrent to the personality? Or is each individual robot still concious? If so being a leg component would be like playing stacks on with a train.

The BW combiners come across as more together and someone has already mentioned that Magnaboss would be a fairly well centred combination of his components. But Silverbolt would have existing knowledge of how chaotic combination would be. Wouldn't this hinder the mind meld? Like watching a movie with someone who has already seen it and pre-empts the entire thing.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, generally the minds merge into one. Remember that the German word Gestalt itself means "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts." ("Boy, those Germans have a word for everything!" - Homer Simpson)

Physically we can see that this is probably true. For example, Devastator can probably exert more force than all the Constructicons combined... e.g. if you told the Constructicons to try to break through an armoured structure with their bare hands, they could keep punching and probably break their arms. Yet Devastator can just plow his fingers through - as seen in Transformers The Movie.

Mentally this is true for Computron who's probably able to calculate solutions to problems faster and more accurately than say if we put the Technobots into a conference room and asked them to discuss a solution together. Afterburner would probably lose patience pretty quickly and throw a chair. :p

[Golden Phoenix]

But Silverbolt would have existing knowledge of how chaotic combination would be. Wouldn't this hinder the mind meld? Like watching a movie with someone who has already seen it and pre-empts the entire thing.
I think it would be an advantage.
His prior knowledge would help him mediate betweel Ironhide and Prowl. He can forsee potential problems or conflicts and help avoid them.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I remember reading in a guide book (it's downstairs and i can't be bothered going down to check the title) that Devestator was the first to successfully operate when combined though at the cost of intelligence. After Autobots got a hold of the process they were able to refine it giving the gestalt a more fluid mental state.

This could be why Decepticon gestalts seem lower on the inteligence scale then the Autobots

[GoktimusPrime]

This was certainly the case in Dreamwave continuity. In G1 comic continuity Devastator was the first gestalt, and the Autobots created their own when Bumblebee scanned Devvie - although I don't recall G1 stating that Devastator was emotionally unstable because he was the first gestalt (more to do with the conflicting minds of the individual Constructicons -- after all, Marvel did also write the early G1 tech specs).

In Dreamwave continuity Defensor was more mentally stable than Devastator, but still a whack-job in his own right, and the Protectobots quite disliked combining to form Defensor -- only doing so as a last resort. In fact, there was a kind of arms race between Autobots and Decepticons to build gestalt teams and ultimately the Crisis Intervention Accord was signed which rendered gestalt special teams as being unaligned. The gestalt technology appeared to have been somewhat refined later on, as Defensor seemed much more mentally stable several millenia after the Battle at Tagan Heights.

[LordCyrusOmega]

In Dreamwave continuity Defensor was more mentally stable than Devastator, but still a whack-job in his own right, and the Protectobots quite disliked combining to form Defensor -- only doing so as a last resort. In fact, there was a kind of arms race between Autobots and Decepticons to build gestalt teams and ultimately the Crisis Intervention Accord was signed which rendered gestalt special teams as being unaligned. The gestalt technology appeared to have been somewhat refined later on, as Defensor seemed much more mentally stable several millenia after the Battle at Tagan Heights.

That was in War Within wasn't it?

I've only seen combiners in the tv series (none of the comics I own have combiners) so I ca(No i do have the War within issue that came with the Univere 2.0 Dirge Vs Roadbuster but Devestator didn't say much and the Protectorbots just combine-end scene) so I cant comment on the comics but they all seemed reasonably stable in the cartoons.

Devestator was even able to have a conversation (The Core - Season 1) and reason so he can't be that stupid.

[GoktimusPrime]

Judging from your description I suspect your guidebook may be referring to Dreamwave comic continuity.

When it comes to the G1 cartoon "continuity" is a word that is used rather loosely. Devastator's origins are quite confusing and contradictory in the cartoon... first we see Megatron state that the Decepticons constructed them on Earth. Then later we see the Constructicons on ancient Cybertron as Autobots or possibly neutrals - but friends with Omega Supreme until Megatron reprogrammed them as Decepticons. Then later we see the Constructicons build Megatron in Cybertron's distant past. W h a t t h e s c r a p ? ? :eek:

So yeah... I personally don't put much stock in cartoon "continuity" and much prefer the comic books which were relatively more cohesive.

[LordCyrusOmega]

The origins of the Constructions in Cartoon continuity can be easily streamlined if you do the following:
When Megatron says "You are worth the time i spent building you" just add the prefix Re to build.
So
Megatron: You are worth the time i spent rebulding you"
And everything falls into place.

The guide I have goes through all the comics from G1 to dreamwave. Theres actually a chapter on Dreamwave. It's The Ultimate Guide by D&K (I think they are the publishers)

[klystron]

I thought Abominus was supposed to be so stupid that if he was organic he'd barely be able to breathe on his own?

[GoktimusPrime]

The origins of the Constructions in Cartoon continuity can be easily streamlined if you do the following:
When Megatron says "You are worth the time i spent building you" just add the prefix Re to build.
So
Megatron: You are worth the time i spent rebulding you"
And everything falls into place.

I can just imagine you doing your own retcon dub of the G1 cartoon

Megatron (Frank Welker): "They were worth the time we spent..."
<video pauses but audio track continues>
Megatron (LordCyrusOmega's voice): "..re..."
<normal video and audio track resumes>
Megatron (Frank Welker): "...building them in these caverns!"

Reminds me of that episode of The Simpsons when they opened Kamp Krusty:
Krusty The Clown: "Say hello to..."
(another voice): "Mister Black."
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f222/maax2550/th_mrblack.jpg
:D :)

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

The origins of the Constructions in Cartoon continuity can be easily streamlined if you do the following:
When Megatron says "You are worth the time i spent building you" just add the prefix Re to build.
So
Megatron: You are worth the time i spent rebulding you"
And everything falls into place.

The guide I have goes through all the comics from G1 to dreamwave. Theres actually a chapter on Dreamwave. It's The Ultimate Guide by D&K (I think they are the publishers)OK, now try fixing up Carnage in C-Minor.:p

[LordCyrusOmega]

Ode: I'll watch it tomorrow and get back to you.
Gok: Thats closer then you think. The whole constructicon thing did my head in. Simple solution really.

I'm presently trying to create a continuity that incorporates all TF cartoon universes. I'm a sucker for punishment.

[LordCyrusOmega]

Watched Carnage in C-Minor today and I don't understand what your saying. Apart from being the Transformers answer to a musical episode that a lot of shows attempt and being so unbelievably bad IMO I can't see what it had to do with Combiners.

However the episode where a young Alpha Trion comes to the future and a bunch of Autobots get sucked back in time after a Quintesson experiment went wrong clearly illustrated how dumb Superion is. He speaks as though his brain got switched with a cave man. He came across as Stupid; even more so then 'Devestator Smash'