Takara Tomy beginning to take action against 3rd products in Japan?

[kaiden]

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/takara-tomy-attempting-to-ban-third-party-items-in-japan/21281/

basically a japanese retailer Red Mercury reports they have received a warning from Takara Tomy to stop selling 3rd party custom products on the grounds of copyright and trademark infringement.

RM have cancelled preorders for the following

iGear Kup Head Set
iGear Bee 01
Perfect Effect SFX Scouting Force X - Camera Set
TFC Toys Primary School: Primars
Head Robots Blood
Crazy Devy CDMW-16
Crazy Devy CDMW-17

[Sky Shadow]

Excellent. About bloody time.

[kup]

It will blow over, it's only in Japan and so far just a single shop. I hope the 3rd parties get their act together, most of them are beginning to release just as much crap as Hasbro.

[Vector Prime]

Excellent. About bloody time.

+1 :cool:

[gdmetro]

About bloody time- I love 3rd party stuff, but also want to see Has/Tak protecting their property...

This will not really affect anyone outside Japan. From my understanding, it seems the only thing it will substantially do is make Japanese collectors import rather than get the items from a store.

Even if the same pressure is applied elsewhere, I don't think it will affect much. Most of these products come from China and we all know how stringent their legal system is especially with regards to stuff like this.

Also notice how none of the FP stuff has been targeted? Perhaps this validates that FP designs do not encroach on the IP enough to be actioned against. Or it could just be a minor oversight.

I think the biggest culprit is Igear- by a wide margin. Rumors from other boards that they "borrowed" the injection moulds for the MP seekers to redesign for their cone-heads.

[kup]

Also notice how none of the FP stuff has been targeted? Perhaps this validates that FP designs do not encroach on the IP enough to be actioned against. Or it could just be a minor oversight.


Awesome point! FansProject is the only company that has actually gone through a huge effort not to step over the line and infringe on copyright despite the obvious similarities in their products to official TF characters. As it has been argued before, Defender may look like Springer but when you study and compare the Hasbro toys/character models in detail, there is actually very little that is similar. The most prominent aspect is the colors theme that tributes the official character and even that is not 100% the same and there can't be copyrights on color.

On the other hand, the same could be argued about Headrobot's stuff as they too have been careful with copyright infringement but they didn't scape Takara's notice despite 'Blood' being little more than a generic skull head when disembodied.

[1AZRAEL1]

I think IGear is being targeted because they are pushing it to the point that they are taking it too far in some cases. Look at the Coneheads and small MP Primes. Those are taken straight from the original molds, just modified. Whereas FansProject have created something new.

[Hursticon]

Personally, I'm glad that some form of action is finally being taken against those 3rd Party groups that obviously stray too far from legitimate practices and I hope Japan is just the beginning. :mad:

It also inadvertently recognises the efforts by those 3rd parties that make the extra effort to make sure that they don't infringe on copyrighted IPs by merely paying homage. ;)

Though this sort of practice will never truly be stamped out completely, I hope too that this will see the end of the oodles of pointless 3rd party crap that has been riding the waves of success that those like Fansproject have created. :cool:

[UltraMarginal]

Interesting I think, I've always had issue with things like the third party seekers, smaller MP primes even the warbot defender is pushing it a bit far I think. But I love the add ons like the MP roller, city commander and even the newer rodimus trailer. they are items that enhance current HasTak products, that can't fit into the budget of a retail product but for fans, are a little bit of icing on the cake. It will be interesting to see how HASTAK treat this in the long run.

I am designing some stuff myself for my seekers, and 20th anniversary prime, hopefully I will get it in the next week or two and be able to show it off.

[FFN]

I think IGear is being targeted because they are pushing it to the point that they are taking it too far in some cases. Look at the Coneheads and small MP Primes. Those are taken straight from the original molds, just modified. Whereas FansProject have created something new. I don't think Hasbro/Takara are happy with Fansproject essentially making Springer, Blast Off and Swindle, either (along with Broadside and the probably-canceled Junkions). Original toy engineering designs, but obviously based upon characters FansProject don't actually own.

[Hursticon]

I don't think Hasbro/Takara are happy with Fansproject essentially making Springer, Blast Off and Swindle, either (along with Broadside and the probably-canceled Junkions). Original toy engineering designs, but obviously based upon characters FansProject don't actually own.

Indeed, but the likenesses are clearly different enough to not be in breach of copyright - Now the concept though is a different story entirely. ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah but they're competing with Hasbro in a way. Hasbro may be justified in seeing 3rd party item makers, when they make actual character-toys, as impeding on their potential to do so themselves. I think there's a fine difference between making accessories which compliment Hasbro's toys (e.g. City Commander) and making toys which compete against (or can be perceived as potential competition) Hasbro's toys. For example, let's say the 3rd Party Junkion came out -- and later Hasbro wanted to retool RtS Wreck Gar as their own Junkion -- Hasbro would have a case in arguing that the 3rd party Junkion provides an alternative to their own Junkion, and thus is a form of competition. Competition created by a 3rd party using Hasbro's intellectual property.

I think Hasbro's happy to turn a blind eye to complimentary 3rd party items, but I don't blame HasTak for not allowing the same grace to potentially competitive items based on their property and used without permission.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/shortpacked/shortpacked_fansproject.png

[kup]

Indeed, but the likenesses are clearly different enough to not be in breach of copyright - Now the concept though is a different story entirely. ;)

They are also officially different characters altogether with their own names and stories. I also think they are copyrighted and trademarked too.

Yes, they are basing their toys on Hasbro characters but it's very hard to proof that when the resulting figure is so different with the only real likeness being the color scheme. Also Hasbro does not own the rights to transforming robots, anyone can make their own.

Although one cannot deny that FanProjects is riding on the popularity of official characters to sell their toys, they appear to have pretty much legally shielded themselves against being sued or banned by being very careful not to cross the legal line unlike IGear and others.

[Lint]

They are also officially different characters altogether with their own names and stories. I also think they are copyrighted and trademarked too.

Yes, they are basing their toys on Hasbro characters but it's very hard to proof that when the resulting figure is so different with the only real likeness being the color scheme. Also Hasbro does not own the rights to transforming robots, anyone can make their own.

Although one cannot deny that FanProjects is riding on the popularity of official characters to sell their toys, they appear to have pretty much legally shielded themselves against being sued or banned by being very careful not to cross the legal line unlike IGear and others.

If they were 'basing' their toys on characters from a corporation that vigorously defends their intellectual property, say like Disney, I doubt that flimsy legal shield would hold.

The only reason why Fansproject haven't faced litigation is arguably because of China's general disregard for the enforcement of foreign IP and the mercy of Hasbro.

[jaydisc]

Ah, so many legal experts.

Absence of legal proceedings does not guarantee innocence any more than the mere presence of legal proceedings guarantees guilt.

Let's pause and remember that there still has yet to be any legal proceedings, and certainly not any legal rulings, which are really what count. Anyone can point their finger. That's what dismissals are for.

[UltraMagnus]

Ah, so many legal experts.

Yes - i think people's legal expertise gets clouded by an emotional attachment to it rather than the facts.

3rd Party products have increased the value in Hasbro's IP and brand. The stuff iGear is doing is clear copy of Intellectual property, but so is all of those copy devastators/protectobots and other transformer toys.

A public trial against a "fansproject" would give Hasbro alot of bad publicity, shares will suffer as well as shareholders. If its in the best interest of shareholders then no problems.

If a "fansproject" got so successful that they were avaliable at every wal-mart/k-mart then they would take action seriously.

[gdmetro]

Ah, so many legal experts.

Absence of legal proceedings does not guarantee innocence any more than the mere presence of legal proceedings guarantees guilt.

Let's pause and remember that there still has yet to be any legal proceedings, and certainly not any legal rulings, which are really what count. Anyone can point their finger. That's what dismissals are for.

Agreed. One has to remember even decisions by Courts are not set in stone- there can be dissenting decisions, decisions that can be appealed and overturned in higher courts. There are also jurisdictional issues. China's laws are different from our common law system/westernized legal principles.

On another note- Someone on another forum made an interesting point, which is that the action being taken is not in lieu of any specific product, but due to the 3rd party market as a whole- which has grown significantly in the past year or 2.

[reillyd]

In the west, you go directly to jail do not pass go. In China you receive the frigging death penalty.
Just google china "intellectual property" "death sentence".

Every month more and more people are sentenced to death for violation of foreign IP. There's a reason why big companies may choose NOT to press cases against Chinese IP violations......... can you imagine pursuing an execution for someone who makes a dodgy knock off Optimus or Bumblebee toy? That's not good corporate PR if it makes the media.

---

I always like to correct an error if I mispoke. As someone has pointed out,
China recently removed the death penalty for a number of "economic related crimes", see http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110225/ap_on_re_as/as_china_death_penalty for more information.

And as another poster mentioned, there are still widespread violations of copyright infringement. So what I said earlier may not be applicable here :o

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm in China right now and have been for over a fortnight now, and intellectual properties are brazenly, blatantly and very openly abused here. 98% of Transformer toys I've seen here are knock offs; and I frequently see them displayed near the front of stores so that passer-bys can see them, and they're even sold in major store chains like Parkson Grand and Wal*Mart! All the Transformers I've purchased here so far has been from a small, obscure and out of the way specialist collectable store. Then there's DVDs... I don't think I've _ever_ seen a legit DVD here. I saw one DVD at someone's home that could be legit (or a high quality KO)... but otherwise the others are all very obviously fake. Police would have to be completely blind or stupid not to notice this.

Further discussion (and conspiracy theory ;)) continued here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?p=234545). ;)

[Hursticon]

Whilst it is not surprising to see where this thread is headed, what is being lost is that it appears to be only certain Brick & Mortars that are being pursued in Japan, who evidently must be sticking certain 3rd Party (Probably iGear) products next to Official ones and employing questionable sales tactics.

Japan is in the middle of an insane set of circumstances at the moment and is metaphorically bleeding money on a number of fronts, so I am not too surprised to see that in this situation, TakTom have chosen to target face-to-face Store Owner/Operators who are stocking these likely infringing products as it is easier to enforce their financial protection on that front as opposed to pursuing those who actually create the items.

Now, I respect those in Legal professions but I don't think one needs to be an Alan Shore in order to see the difference between right and wrong/Fansproject and iGear and the very pitiful impacts that their products would have on a Global Sales scale because at the end of the day - The products are only sought after by those who are informed about the products existence - i.e. a fan with an Internet connection.

What has happened though is that in certain regions, evidently Asia, this is starting to be no longer the case - 3rd party products are starting to be stocked on shelves of face-to-face B&Ms and depending on the owner/operator of said store, they might be attempting to pass the products off as Official and therefore making themselves worthy Targets.

3rd Party products certainly have gained momentum in the past couple of years, they are still however nowhere near the sales levels of HasTakTom or Bandai or Mattel products and people are certainly not setting out to choose them over an Official product.
I believe that this is due to 3rd Parties traditionally selling their products via the Internet to specifically targeted consumer groups (TF fans), which HasTakTom has obviously not had a problem with, but now that people are doing this and then putting them up for sale in face-to-face B&Ms - Is obviously the reason for this recent legal activity in a country with currently sensitive finances of which TakTom is based.

Not because there is a war between Official and Non-Official products, but because there is a war between Manufacturers and the face-to-face Retailers who are deceiving their potential customers.

[GoktimusPrime]

Japan has always been pretty tight with copyright laws -- long before the unfortunate events of recent times. Everything I've ever seen or purchased in Japan has been legit. I did once purchase a PlayStation controller that was manufactured by a 3rd party -- I'm sure we have them in Australia too. They're not made by the manufacturer of the console (e.g. Sony), but they're simply made to be compatible with their consoles. The words "Sony" or "PlayStation" doesn't appear anywhere on the packaging, and the design is distinctly different from a PS control. It just happens to be a cheaper compatible product. But that would be the most legally dubious thing I've ever seen in Japan.

I know that KOs do exist in Japan, because I know of at least one Japanese Transfan who purchased some... but they're not easy to find. I think this dude bought his KOs at a convention - and he bought it for the novelty because he'd never seen KOs before (they were really obviously fake KOs (undersized)).

[Lint]

That's actually a very common and inaccurate misconception there Lint, that China doesn't enforce foreign IP laws. In the west, you go directly to jail do not pass go. In China you receive the frigging death penalty.
Just google china "intellectual property" "death sentence".
Here's one just from two days ago http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=34972

Every month more and more people are sentenced to death for violation of foreign IP. There's a reason why big companies may choose NOT to press cases against Chinese IP violations......... can you imagine pursuing an execution for someone who makes a dodgy knock off Optimus or Bumblebee toy? That's not good corporate PR if it makes the media.

I didn't say they outright didn't.

Thanks I did google it, and I didn't really find a great deal except the actual news websites citing their IP over various things in the web article.

That article you linky'd was scant on actual details but had the woman sentenced for "illegal fundraising" not IP infringement. Pure speculation here but it sounds like she either borrowed a lot of money from an 'unofficial' source or got people to invest in her for dividends to fuel her expanding business empire which caught the ire of the authorities.

But you're right, theres better reasons NOT to press charges against Chinese IP violations than for.

[kup]

If a "fansproject" got so successful that they were avaliable at every wal-mart/k-mart then they would take action seriously.

This is an excellent point. Hasbro probably doesn't really care as long as they are not directly selling to their customers -the retail stores.

[Sky Shadow]

This is an excellent point. Hasbro probably doesn't really care as long as they are not directly selling to their customers -the retail stores.

Since there have been knockoff Transformers at retail for decades now, I'm not convinced even that would rouse Hasbro from its torpor.

[Hursticon]

Since there have been knockoff Transformers at retail for decades now, I'm not convinced even that would rouse Hasbro from its torpor.

I've always thought that Hasbro just assumes that Parents can tell the difference between an Official item or a KO, that or the kids will. ;)
Which is exactly what I used to do when my parents tried to palm Mighty Machine Men off to me as Transformers. :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Since there have been knockoff Transformers at retail for decades now, I'm not convinced even that would rouse Hasbro from its torpor.
True. I'm sure many of us remember those yellow and black KO G1 Constructicons sold at Target.


I've always thought that Hasbro just assumes that Parents can tell the difference between an Official item or a KO, that or the kids will. ;)
I'm sure a lot of them can tell the difference. Whether they care or not is an entirely different matter. For a lot of parents, buying a KO toy or DVD for their child means saving money which they can then spend on other priorities like food, school etc. -- I'd like to say that this would be especially relevant to low income families, but I know of rich families who chose to buy KOs because they were cheap... like my godparents -- filthy rich, but a lot of my godbrother's games were KOs, simply because they could save money. I remember asking my godfather to get me a Nintendo Famicom (Family Computer) from overseas, he asked me if I wanted an actual legit Nintendo Famicom or a cheaper imitation -- I asked him to get me a legit console. Although most of the games I asked him to buy for me were KOs (hey, I was a kid!).


Which is exactly what I used to do when my parents tried to palm Mighty Machine Men off to me as Transformers. :p
The main difference being that Machine Men aren't knock offs though. They were Bandai's Machine Robo toys repackaged by Tonka and sold in Western markets as Machine Men (or GoBots). Hasbro later copied Tonka's idea by importing Takara's Diaclone and Microman toys and calling them Transformers. But Machine Men actually came first. ;)

Of course, Transformers now owns Machine Men... suck on that with your nicotine-stained teeth, Cy-Kill! :p

But yes, Machine Men were cheaper (and crappier :p) than Transformers -- so a lot of times I also received Machine Men as bday or Xmas gifts instead of Transformers. Or sometimes if my mother didn't have enough money to buy a Transformer, I'd settle for a Machine Man. :(

[Hursticon]

Oh yeah, I was fully aware as to what Mighty Machine Men were, i.e. a competing franchise and not a KO, but it still annoyed me as a kid because I wanted Transformers - Alas, MMM were plain cheaper compared to their superior competitors and hence why most of my Childhood TFs came from 2nd hand stores or flee markets. :(

[kup]

When I was a kid some relatives did give me Gobots as presents thinking they were Transformers. I think that adults then had the concept that any transforming robot was a Transformer (Hasbro).

[liegeprime]

Oh yeah, I was fully aware as to what Mighty Machine Men were, i.e. a competing franchise and not a KO, but it still annoyed me as a kid because I wanted Transformers - Alas, MMM were plain cheaper compared to their superior competitors and hence why most of my Childhood TFs came from 2nd hand stores or flee markets. :(

Cheer up at least you got em even though they're MMs:D ... I had to make my own since I fully understand we can't afford em... and I didnt want MM's so I didnt bother bugging my parents about em, so my only real TFs (Soundwave, Buzzsaw) got seldom played with and has thankfully survived ehheheh I just made my own paper KOs hehehe thank goodness for colorful catalogs to base it from.

[Hursticon]

Cheer up at least you got em even though they're MMs:D ... I had to make my own since I fully understand we can't afford em... and I didnt want MM's so I didnt bother bugging my parents about em, so my only real TFs (Soundwave, Buzzsaw) got seldom played with and has thankfully survived ehheheh I just made my own paper KOs hehehe thank goodness for colorful catalogs to base it from.

That's a hell of a creative solution to a problem dude if I'd ever heard of one, I imagine you'd be pretty good at Origami then? :eek::cool:
The MMM's I hate the most were the one's with the detachable 'Throttlebot-esque' motor, they always broke on me but things like this guy (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ekpYrg7-EHE/TLd7sQFc6_I/AAAAAAAAAng/qcFihgfqD1M/s1600/RoadRangerLoose1a.jpg) I found to be passable. :o

[liegeprime]

That's a hell of a creative solution to a problem dude if I'd ever heard of one, I imagine you'd be pretty good at Origami then? :eek::cool:
The MMM's I hate the most were the one's with the detachable 'Throttlebot-esque' motor, they always broke on me but things like this guy (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ekpYrg7-EHE/TLd7sQFc6_I/AAAAAAAAAng/qcFihgfqD1M/s1600/RoadRangerLoose1a.jpg) I found to be passable. :o

yeah most of em imagine would break since its diecast on plastic, not really lasting, thank goodness for balljoint tech. :D Still a shame, since some of the characters they have are really enjoyable and I think would make a great TF if a version (ala Crasher = Fracture, and Bugbite) was made... Id like to see Buggyman, Creeper Jeeper, Fitor, Turbo, Cykill and Leader one.. oh and Scooter too, weve never had a scooter TF

I wasnt really that good in origami though I enjoyed making my TF's. one good thing about toy displays way back then in Philippines is that you CAN pick it up and fiddle with it, that helps a lot in figuring out minute details I cant glean from staring at catalogues:D
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb313/liegeprime/Othercollectibles036.jpg
My room got quite messy often from leftover paper cut offs. Still, I had more TFs than my neighbors ( who had original toys but preferred to play with my stuff hehehe)..and I can customize mine. The Joes were a very cheap alternative so I got me more of those instead at those times, doh!! but the vehicles I made myself as well - Hisstank anyone?

[Hursticon]

Haha, that's cool man, well done! :eek::D
This partially explains why your collection today is apparently HUGE! :D

This has made me look at my Animated Papermus Prime in a different light too. :p

[UltraMarginal]

Your lucky you had paper!
When i was a kid, we had to mill and pulp our own wood to make paper before we could even think of making origami transformers.
To make matters worse, it was a hundred mile treck into the wild to get trees that were of the right qualities, and we had to drag them home by hand.

don't get me started on colouring either. I had to use my own blood to paint my optimus prime cab, you don't want to know where I got colours for my blaster and shockwave!!:p

Seriously though, that is really cool, how industrious you can be when you only have certain tools at your disposal is very impressive.

[kaiden]

when the day comes for hasbro to upgrade their online sales, i wonder what will happen to 3rd party products?

i prefer to shop online and avoid the hassle of going to the store and not finding what i am looking for and just generally being around other shoppers.

i wish i could buy Transformers when i felt like it instead of having to shop elsewhere due to retail stores refusing to order more of their products and therefore having all those warpaths stuck in a warehouse costing space and money.

whats surprising to me is the death penalty within china. i thought they didnt care about laws outside their own country as they seem to be mostly able to do as they wish. their currency is artificially low, and they can KO anything!

I figured they would protect their economy not kill off their own, but i guess they dont care about the individual since their population growth makes it irrelevant as they're evidently replaceable.

[liegeprime]

Well they have really harsher laws there I guess. Must be a way of really deterring the populace, and were talking millions and millions of people here since they're overpopulated. .... for a second there it crossed my mind ( really sick joke:p:o) but it could be China's way of population control... they make KOs kill em all!! They wee in public, kill em all!!, they make too many babies, kill em all!!

Oh and Hursty, the head in those paper bots are 4 dimensional too so they took me quite awhile to finish 1 ( about a day for 1) but I make the heads last so that I have proper dimensions and they dont come out disproportionate to the body.

Ultramarginal: you can boil some berries and use the concentrated liquid for ink to color Shockwave :p:D... it helps to be creative when one has no money:o:p heheheh I used to use white computer paper and had markers to color m, but that took ages so when I discorvered Cartolina craft paper (comes in oodles o color) never looked back heheh,

[GoktimusPrime]

and were talking millions and millions of people here
Over a billion.

<insert.rantage.here> China seems to have a lot of the disadvantages of a large population _without_ the advantages... 'cept for better shopping hours. Then again, Australia's shopping hours suck.

I was shopping in a supermarket today and while passing the DVD section I saw a cartoon called "Robo Warriors" -- the images on the cover were retooled KOs of Transformer Go-Bots! I've seen the KO toys themselves at a department store, but I didn't know they made a cartoon based on this line of KOs!! :eek: So apparently even making a cartoon to promote your line of KO Transformer toys isn't enough to rouse Hasbro's wrath.

I guess those 3rd party sellers in Japan and iGear just got unlucky?

[liegeprime]

Over a billion.

<insert.rantage.here> China seems to have a lot of the disadvantages of a large population _without_ the advantages... 'cept for better shopping hours. Then again, Australia's shopping hours suck.

I was shopping in a supermarket today and while passing the DVD section I saw a cartoon called "Robo Warriors" -- the images on the cover were retooled KOs of Transformer Go-Bots! I've seen the KO toys themselves at a department store, but I didn't know they made a cartoon based on this line of KOs!! :eek: So apparently even making a cartoon to promote your line of KO Transformer toys isn't enough to rouse Hasbro's wrath.

I guess those 3rd party sellers in Japan and iGear just got unlucky?


Well the thing is, Igear sells worldwide and are really sought after by collectors and other online stores (BBTS, et al) which redirects sales from the coffers of Hastak products and in turn their IP. KO Products from China even with cartoons, are, I guess mostly confined within China.. See no one even knows there was a cartoon for these Kos .. until now that youve discovered it. So the few cheapcheapcheap looking KOs that get sold outside China , in dollar shops mostl,y here in Aus are not a real threat to HAstaks IP or sales... certainly not a bother. Buyers of these a very very few as well.

[UltraMarginal]

Ultramarginal: you can boil some berries and use the concentrated liquid for ink to color Shockwave :p:D... it helps to be creative when one has no money:o:p heheheh I used to use white computer paper and had markers to color m, but that took ages so when I discorvered Cartolina craft paper (comes in oodles o color) never looked back heheh,

Dude, I just saw your picture above (couldn't see it at work), you are truly a genius!:eek:

[liegeprime]

Dude, I just saw your picture above (couldn't see it at work), you are truly a genius!:eek:

Thanks. :)

[kaiden]

SOURCE (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/rumour-igear-pp04-mp-magnus-armour/21369/)

wow igear really are taking things too far. now they're going to steal a Transfans work to do their Ultra Magnus upgrade.

Death Penalty!

[Hursticon]

SOURCE (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/rumour-igear-pp04-mp-magnus-armour/21369/)

wow igear really are taking things too far. now they're going to steal a Transfans work to do their Ultra Magnus upgrade.

Death Penalty!

Yeah, I just read that also - How ridiculous! :rolleyes:
It is clear that iGear would rather rip-off others than do their own hard work as they sell more KO stuff now than anything of their own - I hope that HasTakTom and China come down on them (Not Death Though) even if it is the Store Holder approach. :cool:

I'd even suggest a Boycott of their KO products but if people want to buy that sort of thing then that is completely up to them, I guess...

[jaydisc]

Isn't it alleged that this was exactly what they did with the coneheads too?

[Hursticon]

Isn't it alleged that this was exactly what they did with the coneheads too?

According to what I've read, apparently so - Hell, it's even arguable that both of the 3rd Party Arcees are 'stolen' design concepts but I wont be complaining in that department. :D

[jaydisc]

Both Arcees are. I believe they're "borrowed" from a design called the "Cyberfembot". The original website for it has been hacked, but here's something from Google's cache:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hjvxhULFFC4J:www.cyberfembot.com/cyberfembotpod.html+cyberfembot&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au&client=safari&source=www.google.com.au

[jaydisc]

Here's better info:

http://thirdpartytransformers.wikia.com/wiki/CyberFemBot_A.R.C.

[Sky Shadow]

Here's better info:

http://thirdpartytransformers.wikia.com/wiki/CyberFemBot_A.R.C.

Holy crud - there truly is a wiki for everything. :)

[jaydisc]

The board didn't like the fact that link ended with a period. I've fixed it. It should work now.