Canon

[Verno]

What is it?

Where did it come from?

Should new Transformers stories abide by it?

How does something become 'canon'?

I was recently discussing a few things with Gok in the Vector Sigma / Transmetal Driver thread (it's a good read, have a look) and Gok continually pulled me up on this little issue of Canon, as he saw me ideas as acting outside the boundaries of what is considered 'official' Transformers fact.

The reason I raise it is that I'm writing somewhat of a Transformers Comic, with a storyline that goes right back to the start with Unicron and Primus, spans the Great War, the Pax Cybertronia and the Beast Wars, then culminates with the change into TransTech (which we never saw because Beast Machines sucked too much [so I've worked the story so BM never happens])

But in my research, no official storyline details what happens between the signing of the Pax Cybertronia and the start of the Beast Wars, nor do they seem to cover the end of the Great War itself.

I realise that anything I write isn't Canon becuase it's not an officially licenced, Hasbro approved Transformers stuff. But neither was the 1st draft of the 1st episode of Transformers: Prime. Nor was the 1st draft of the 1st new movie. Only when it got the tick of approval did they become 'canon' and yet they started out not being so.

And it's not like these stories stuck to the original format of what 'canon' has seen before, they wrote their own universe.

I'm writing a story that rolls in and out of what we would consider G1/BW canon, yet that in itself is a very blurry thing.

Which G1? US TV series, US Comics, UK Comics, Japanese Comics?

Which BW? Just the TV series? Or do you include BWII and Neo? And Furman's Gathering and Ascending?

All of which contradict themselves and have no clear throughline to an understandable end, and yet they are held in reverence, in such high regard because they are 'canon'.

Why doesn't someone go back and do One. When I say One, I mean one story that makes sense from beginning to end.

Draw on whichever stories go together.

RID doesn't go with BW, just as BM doesn't go with ... anything.

But just make one work, instead of continually making up new stuff.

Thats what I'm trying to do anyway.

I have to kill Primus after the Beast Wars and replace him with the Vok to do so, but it works, just ask me :p But apparently Primus is already dead is one universe, but not in another, but I can't kill him because Unicron already did and I'd be contradicting canon, yet he's still alive so I can. Confused? Me too.

Get one Universe right, then you can go off and have all your weird offshoots. So long as there is one that makes sense from beginning to end, not countless unfinished stories.

I don't think I've made my point very well but I feel better to have got some of it off my chest.

Discuss.

[Sky Shadow]

I realise that anything I write isn't Canon becuase it's not an officially licenced, Hasbro approved Transformers stuff. But neither was the 1st draft of the 1st episode of Transformers: Prime. Nor was the 1st draft of the 1st new movie. Only when it got the tick of approval did they become 'canon' and yet they started out not being so.

This is the point. These things are canonical - even if they don't necessarily fit in with the rest of the canon - because they are officially sanctioned. That's what the word means - canon is determined by the church or an authority. Everything in the Bible is canonical, but that doesn't mean it all makes sense from beginning to end or bits of the Bible aren't contradicted by other bits - they are. Anything you come up with to do with Transformers that hasn't been dictated by Hasbro or its affiliates is fanfiction. It could theoretically become canonical, but it isn't at this time.

What you're talking about in terms of streaming clashes in various universes and franchise is about continuity, not canon. You can come up with your own personal continuity, but you can't have a personal canon.

[Verno]

Continuity, yes, I'd love one of them to work from start to finish.

[GoktimusPrime]

KA-BLAMMM!!!

Oh sorry, that was cannon. :p

please please, hold your applause... d:


But in my research, no official storyline details what happens between the signing of the Pax Cybertronia and the start of the Beast Wars, nor do they seem to cover the end of the Great War itself.
This is true. And I do wish someone would do something about this. I would have rather seen the IDW BW comics try to fill in this void rather than create out-of-continuity off-shoot stories like The Gathering and The Ascending. The BotCon comics do touch on this a little bit, but certainly not enough.

Many fans have tried to make their own continuity flow which connects everything together logically - but in order to do so you're going to have to chop and change official continuity, and thus in doing so creating your own continuity. In short, because official continuities are so complex, it's difficult to effectively unite them... even the idea of multiversal singularities is kinda stretching things. I mean, officially now the G1 cartoon has been retconned so that Primus exists and Unicron is a dark god - but uh... I totally don't get that vibe at all whenever I watch the G1 'toon! Especially whenever I watch "Call of the Primitives" and see that Unicron was built by a space-chimp. :p

[Verno]

Whats official continuity then? And how many are there?

What's it going to take to get Hasbro, or whatever powers that be, to make one that works?

It would be pretty cheap to do if you ask me, and a comic would be the best medium to use.

Start with Primus and Unicron backstory, move through the Great War and into G1 utilising anything that is condusive, then to G2 and any stuff that again adds to the storyline, end of the Great War, Pax Cybertronia, Beast Wars and forward.

Not difficult. Sure you won't please everyone, but to have atleast one that works, copy and pasting from official canon to make one continuity that works and the elements of its creation are citable are tracable.

Come on Hasbro. Put some pressure on the new boss of IDW to make it happen.

Or pay me to do it :p

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Oh good God...these two TFwiki articles seem to cover it about as well as anything.
What is Canon? http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon
Why doesn't it make sense/why doesn't Hasbro make a consistent canon/etc... http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys

My advice is just don't worry about it and either ignore it and/or make up your own story. The Odieverse makes perfect sense thanks to a decent uber-Macguffin/Deus ex Machina.

[Verno]

We can all have a dream. And as mine of Hard Hero coming back to life and finishing their line of 100% show accurate BW statues has had to have been abandoned, I have to have another dream.

[GoktimusPrime]

Whats official continuity then?
Any story created under licence from Hasbro and/or Takara(TOMY).



What's it going to take to get Hasbro, or whatever powers that be, to make one that works?
Highly unlikely. Hasbro seem more interested in just rebooting continuity ad nauseum now. (-_-) Their rationale is that it keeps continuity "fresh" by not allowing it to stagnate or linger too long.

I'd prefer a long-standing continuous story - but that does require more effort. In order to achieve this you would either need to:
+ Hire experienced TF writers who worked on previous TF canons, like Simon Furman. But see... Furman wrote the BW comics for IDW, and they complete screw around with BW continuity don't they... :o
+ Get new writers who either have an in-depth knowledge of TF lore, or are willing to acquire knowledge of TF lore. Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward had no knowledge of TFs when they were first hired to write Beast Wars, but they went and did their homework and made themselves knowledgeable.


It would be pretty cheap to do if you ask me, and a comic would be the best medium to use.
Yeah, the comic medium would work best because it's a helluva lot cheaper to do than a cartoon. And let's face it, Hasbro would only invest in a cartoon if it were to promote a current toy line.

Having said that, I think it would be possible to make a cartoon that both promotes recent/current toys and continues to build on previous existing canon if they invested in a Classicsverse cartoon!

...but I fear that Hasbro may have already missed that window of opportunity. :( But IDW could easily make a Classicsverse comic series that say, continues where G2 ended. Classicsverse figures could be used to complete the story of the Autobot-Decepticon war.


Come on Hasbro. Put some pressure on the new boss of IDW to make it happen.
Meh... Hasbro only puts pressure when it comes to promoting product. And these days the pressure is nothing like it used to be with Marvel. (-_-) I mean, the entire reason why the continuity headache that is the Earthforce Saga even exists is because Hasbro pushed Furman to write a story that promoted their Classic G1 reissues in 1990-91.

[griffin]

Whats official continuity then? And how many are there?

What's it going to take to get Hasbro, or whatever powers that be, to make one that works?

It would be pretty cheap to do if you ask me, and a comic would be the best medium to use.

Start with Primus and Unicron backstory, move through the Great War and into G1 utilising anything that is condusive, then to G2 and any stuff that again adds to the storyline, end of the Great War, Pax Cybertronia, Beast Wars and forward.

Not difficult. Sure you won't please everyone, but to have atleast one that works, copy and pasting from official canon to make one continuity that works and the elements of its creation are citable are tracable.

Come on Hasbro. Put some pressure on the new boss of IDW to make it happen.

Or pay me to do it :p

I think that's the point of this current continuity (that covers Prime, WFC, Exodus/Exiles)... a few years ago, the Hasbro people had a brainstorming session about the long term direction of the Transformers Lore. This gave birth to 'The 13', and the pre-history story WFC. Prime is the current era, and everything before that, and everything that follows, is likely to be more uniform, but will still have some rough spots due to independence of each project. (the rationale by Aaron Archer is that the different series pass the 'squint test' - by being close enough to be of the one continuity)

It's basically a reboot, as of last year (with WFC and the end of Animated), and from now on, it should all be part of the one continuity.

As for Canon - as others have said, it is anything Hasbro authorises their License-holders to produce (like comics, books, cartoons, computer games, and even the toy bios).

[LordCyrusOmega]

I had an interesting thought today about Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Transtech Continuity. Was going to start a new thread but it kinda ties in with what Verno's trying to do.
Megatron makes a statement to Primal in Beast Machines:
'The Beast Wars are over, You lost'
Which got me thinking. What if Beast Machines was a series in which the Decepticons won? Thus ushering in the Transtech era.
I think this may have been far better and opened the door for rather then the let down that was the end of Beast Machines. It would also have been good because the Autobots always win in the end.

I was actually talking to another Transfan recently who told me his idea for a TF series. I won't tell it as it's his story but it was good.

Kinda off topic

[Verno]

I'd be interested to hear some more of that.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I thought that after the Maximals lost Beast Machines they went underground to recover..whatever they do now that all organic life has been purged (except them). In the meanwhile Megatron begins refining his own robot mode and technology, attempting to reach technological purity/ perfection.
But he keeps it for himself.
The maximals decide that even though they failed to bring organic life back to Cybertron they still had a duty to free all the trapped sparks Megatron has sealed.
So their quest is to free the sparks and deliver Megatrons new refined technology to everyone.
Obviously they win and achieve their goal and with everyone on equal footing a new golden age begins.
Key note: The Maximals purge of organic components is painful and may even cost one their life.

[Verno]

I assume you mean after the Maximals lost the Beast Wars (not BM) they went underground...

The whole idea that it was Cybertron's (Primus') will for the Maximals to bring back the organic to Cybertron, I always found stupider than something very stupid.

I always saw it the other way around. The Maximals weren't to bring back the organic, but (by accident or intention) bring back Transmetal technology, which is no doubt where TransTech moves on from, technologically speaking.

And from what I understand of yours, you're thinking something similar.

Megatron would be testing Transmetal technology (we saw him do it in Feral Scream) and adapting it to more vehicular forms rather than Beast forms.

[GoktimusPrime]

The idea was to bring organic life back to Cybertron so that balance could be restored between the organic and technological. Cybertron was originally an organic planet before it was transformed by Primus into a mechanical world - and initially technorganic life existed on Cybertron before the Transformers did. And Cybertron has an organic core.

There is evidence from G1 that supports this, such as:
+ We know that Primus didn't create Cybertron from scratch. It was an asteroid that he rebuilt as Cybertron. Perhaps this asteroid (planetoid) harboured organic life before his arrival.
+ In the G1 comics, when the Autobot Classic Pretenders and Rescue Patrol found Primus; it's a technorganic core - even with water leading toward the centre (which Seawatch happily exploits when he takes out Bludgeon ;))
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Primal%20Scream%20Photocomic/primalscream014.jpg
+ In the G1 cartoon episode "Dweller In The Depths", the core of Cybertron appears organic.
+ In the same G1 ep, we come across the "Transorganics" -- essentially ancient technorganic creatures in Cybertron's core.
+ In the G1 comics, Cybertron is populated by technorganic mutants, who claim to have lived on Cybertron longer than the Transformers. Sadly none of these underground mutants are hawt like Futurama's Leela. ;p
+ The ancient Cybertronian's "budding" method of reproduction is arguably technorganic in nature
+ In "The Rebirth," Plasma energy effects all mechanical beings, but organic life is immune. And it's thanks to the Headmasters and Targetmasters who have binary bonded themselves to organic Nebulans (and two humans) that Cybertron is saved and a prophecy fulfilled.


I always found stupider than something very stupid.
But there's canonical evidence from G1 and that... that... that... okay, yeah, it's stupid. :p

Well, the stupid thing about it is that the ending of Beast Machines just boxed Transformers continuity into a corner that, other than a few obscure comics, nobody has really attempted to continue from. All mainstream TF continuity since BM have been reboots instead. (-_-)


I always saw it the other way around. The Maximals weren't to bring back the organic, but (by accident or intention) bring back Transmetal technology, which is no doubt where TransTech moves on from, technologically speaking.
I'd like to think by accident. The idea of the Beast Wars being some "foretold destiny" to bring organic elements back to Cybertron is just lame.

Even if Cybertron did evolve from organic world... the fact is that it evolved into a machine world. The idea of going back to becoming quasi-organic seems like de-evolution in a way. It's like saying because humans evolved from monkeys that they need to start swinging from trees and flinging their own faeces around to achieve harmonious spiritual balance. :p

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/qroboconvoy_unchi.jpg
The seeds of the future are buried in the poop of the past!

[Verno]

I'd like to think by accident. The idea of the Beast Wars being some "foretold destiny" to bring organic elements back to Cybertron is just lame.[/i]

You don't think anything in BW had been foretold? Lets not forget the Covenant of Primus. It was giving a pretty good version of the end of the BW in some pretty good detail.

I like to think the Covenant (meaning promise or vow with a god) of Primus gives an outline of the change into the TransTech future, beginning with the BW guys bringing Transmetal technology back to Cybertron, Unicron returning and Primus dying etc (see Vernoverse for more details)

[LordCyrusOmega]

No, I meant the Beast Machines. If the Maximals lost in that series it would open the way for Trans Tech. Everything else is spot on.

The Covenant of Primus wasn't a foretelling, it was more of a history book. Because they travelled back in time they're exploits in the Beast Wars were recorded though they didn't know it was a history lesson nutil they actually wen back in time. Time Travel does my head in.

I like the concept of how they were meant to bring back Transmetal technology rather then organic life. Going back to that shared state does seem like de-evolution but also is about restoring the balance

[Verno]

No, I meant the Beast Machines. If the Maximals lost in that series it would open the way for Trans Tech. Everything else is spot on.

If the Maximals lost BM, then there would be no one to fight Megatron. Megatron already had Cheetor's, Rattrap's etc sparks, and only left Optimus to fight him. If Optimus had lost, then it was game over. There were no other bots around to take up arms.

[theheretic]

What about off world autobots such as the junkions? A few of those with optimus at command could free some random sparks (I'd leave rattrap, LOL). Or alternatively you could bring back a fan favourite in (wait for it) Waspinator. Having been left on earth he could have stayed hidden with a covenant of primus (perhaps stolen from the heavily damaged nemesis) to read for millions of years and possibly begin to understand, making him a sort of new Alpha Trion (like from the WFC exodus book). He could return to cybertron at just the right moment having knowledge of what he needed to do from the covenant and having perfected his own transformations from studying the book. These are only ideas I'm rolling off the top of my head remember so probably flawed by other series events.

[Verno]

He could read the Covenant on his long flight home :p

[theheretic]

He could read the Covenant on his long flight home :p

True. I was more thinking that he's left on Earth millions of years in the past so be could hang out there for a while with his reading material. He could even check out some G1 action take place first hand and being from their distant future he could probably evade detection completely. Whose to say Waspinator wasn't present for all of the events of G1 and so on.

EDIT: And it would be kinda nice seeing Waspinator become a very intelligent and resourceful Transformer as he was always a bit behind everyone else. Nothing a few million years couldn't fix

[1orion2many]

Meh it's all to anarchic now that's why I don't really read any of the comics at the moment. BM Rattrap was an abomination, talk about completely destroying a character from his original BW form, He must have a severe personality disorder:D. I don't have a lot to say about canon or the like as it annoys me that there really isn't anything that you can call continuity. It's like they had a room for a story ideas, posted them up on the walls, ceiling and floor then threw a super ball, whatever it hit was going to get a go in the TF universe:rolleyes:

[Verno]

BM = Character assassination.

It wasn't just Rattrap. Blackarachnia was probably the ONLY one that didn't get screwed character 'development' wise.

I'm all for character development. Look at Cheetor in BW. But when you betray the fundamental characteristics of a character, that's not good in my books.

[1orion2many]

Rhinox was a real shocker as well, assasination is the right word for him and if I think on it a bit more just about all of the cast :( Oh and maybe Megatron was true to form.

[Verno]

Megs is an interesting case. You've gotta go right back to his original plan.

He stole the Golden Disk because it gave the location of Earth and of a supposed massive Energon deposit/resource.

His plan was to go back in time to Earth, either stockpile the Energon and/or create a Warship great enough to take back to present day Cybertron and basically make the Maximals sign their surrender directly to him, all without firing a single shot in anger.

Some could speculate he may have gone looking for the Nemesis (as Tarantulas did {who perhaps did so under orders from the Tripredacus Council}) and then fly that back to Cybertron, as he intended to do in the final episodes of BW.

The message on the Golden Disk from G1 Megatron told the Decepticon descendant to kill the slumbering Prime in the Ark, as Megatron almost did at the end of Season 2, but BW Megatron tried to put his own plans into place, but once they failed, reverted back to G1 Megatron's plan. I think we can take that much for certain from Megatron's comments to Ravage in Agenda.

But Megatron's hatred of Beast forms never came up in the entirity of BW. Maybe in his trip back to Cybertron strapped to the side of the Autobot shuttle he had a change of heart, but it was all very sudden. It's not like that TM2 Dragon form wasn't powerful, it was extremely kick-ass. He handed Op Op a lesson in fighting and was trumped only by the Vok-Supercharged Tigerhawk. I don't see why he'd want to be rid of it.

[GoktimusPrime]

BM = Character assassination.
+1 - I like this term! :D


It wasn't just Rattrap. Blackarachnia was probably the ONLY one that didn't get screwed character 'development' wise.
And Cheetor. Actually, Cheetor got pretty good character development in BM... arguably the only character who got developed in BM. But yeah, the rest of them were pretty screwed.


Oh and maybe Megatron was true to form.
I disagree. BM Megatron is actually a great character in his own right - in many aspects a great tribute to his G1 namesake because his entire philosophy was based on G1 Megatron's motto of "Peace through tyranny" -- and he genuinely believed in it too. But he's just NOT the same character as Beast Wars Megatron.

As Verno said, BW Megatron never had a disdain for organics. Neither did Rhinox. Where did they pull that out of? (/rhetorical.question) BW Megatron also never had this Saviour-Messiah complex which BM Megatron has (which also makes him an interesting antagonist and is one of the more fascinating aspects of Beast Machines -- both the protagonist and the antagonist of the story see themselves as saviours; it's just that they have diametrically opposed values). BW Megatron relished in being a villain, as seen in the end of "The Agenda Part 3" as he taunts the Maximals while they fade out of existence after his attempted assassination of G1 Optimus Prime. At best, BW Megatron's interests spread as far as the Predacon cause -- disenfranchised and frustrated at the Tripredacus Council's ineffectiveness, he went rogue - but still in the interests of the Predacon cause. And again, this is evidenced in The Agenda story arc, especially when he accuses the Maximals of having made the Predacons their slaves. He sees himself as fighting Maximal oppression.

But BM Megatron doesn't care about the Predacons - he indiscriminately enslaved all Sparks on Cybertron regardless of faction. And Thrustinator later argues that maybe he should have cared, since he, as a former Predacon, was the only Vehicon general who's always remained steadfastly loyal to Megatron.

So IMHO the character of BW Megatron was assassinated and replaced with BM Megatron.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I first read about Beast Machines in a guide book and couldn't wait to see it. Then I did and I liked it but it has never felt like Transformers to me. If I look at it as a follow on from BW then it's a massive let down, for reasons already stated by everyone. As a stand alone it's not bad though very different from other series.

Verno: I forgot about the maximals losing their sparks. So; Megatron defeats Primal. We end up with a new cast of heroes, another exploration vessel that reanimate Primal using the Technology they brought back after another enconter with the Vok

[Verno]

Oooo, more Vok encounters. Lovely :cool:

[LordCyrusOmega]

Yep, they pick up proper Transmetal Technology and are taught how to use it, unlike the driver Megatron had on Earth.
Was it ever explained how he got it?

[Verno]

Yep, they pick up proper Transmetal Technology and are taught how to use it, unlike the driver Megatron had on Earth.
Was it ever explained how he got it?

Never officially. Possibly from debris from the Metal Hunter Base. Possibly from inside the Metal Hunter Base when he was incharge of it. Definately during Season 2 though.

[Verno]

Thinking a bit more about Megatron in BM - It's a very Liege Maximo thing he's doing. Controlling the masses through one means or another for his own ends. An ascention of sorts for Megatron.

[LordCyrusOmega]

It's almost..Noble.
Usually Order is attributed to Good while Chaos is attributed to Evil however in Beast Machines Megatron is all about Order while the Maximals are Chaos. Sooo, Megatron's the good guy.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Well, the stupid thing about it is that the ending of Beast Machines just boxed Transformers continuity into a corner that, other than a few obscure comics, nobody has really attempted to continue from. All mainstream TF continuity since BM have been reboots instead. (-_-)The Odieverse has the solution to this. It was all a dream. A bad, bad dream.
Megs is an interesting case. You've gotta go right back to his original plan.

He stole the Golden Disk because it gave the location of Earth and of a supposed massive Energon deposit/resource.

His plan was to go back in time to Earth, either stockpile the Energon and/or create a Warship great enough to take back to present day Cybertron and basically make the Maximals sign their surrender directly to him, all without firing a single shot in anger.

Some could speculate he may have gone looking for the Nemesis (as Tarantulas did {who perhaps did so under orders from the Tripredacus Council}) and then fly that back to Cybertron, as he intended to do in the final episodes of BW.

The message on the Golden Disk from G1 Megatron told the Decepticon descendant to kill the slumbering Prime in the Ark, as Megatron almost did at the end of Season 2, but BW Megatron tried to put his own plans into place, but once they failed, reverted back to G1 Megatron's plan. I think we can take that much for certain from Megatron's comments to Ravage in Agenda.

But Megatron's hatred of Beast forms never came up in the entirity of BW. Maybe in his trip back to Cybertron strapped to the side of the Autobot shuttle he had a change of heart, but it was all very sudden. It's not like that TM2 Dragon form wasn't powerful, it was extremely kick-ass. He handed Op Op a lesson in fighting and was trumped only by the Vok-Supercharged Tigerhawk. I don't see why he'd want to be rid of it.I figure the long transwarp journey through space and time on the outside of the shuttle just drove him nuts. Nice, simple, and leaves my all-time favourite TF his deliciously evil, utterly pragmatic BW 'true' self.

[Hursticon]

The Odieverse has the solution to this. It was all a dream. A bad, bad dream.I figure the long transwarp journey through space and time on the outside of the shuttle just drove him nuts. Nice, simple, and leaves my all-time favourite TF his deliciously evil, utterly pragmatic BW 'true' self.

Zombie BM Megatron was sweet though but man, when that giant floating head fortress of his rose for the first time and was looking down at everyone... That was freaking cool! :D

[SkyWarp91]

tfwiki did a good job of separating the continuities, even though G1 has the cartoon, japanese and comic continuities. The way I like to see it is that collectively all these continuities are separate universes that belong to a MULTIVERSE (just like that Jet Li movie The One!).

How cool would it be if Megatron traveled parallel universes to kill himself again and again to make himself THE ONE!? though G1 megatron would be pretty much useless himself against any other incarnation

[griffin]

There is evidence from G1 that supports this, such as:
+ We know that Primus didn't create Cybertron from scratch. It was an asteroid that he rebuilt as Cybertron. Perhaps this asteroid (planetoid) harboured organic life before his arrival.
+ In the G1 comics, when the Autobot Classic Pretenders and Rescue Patrol found Primus; it's a technorganic core - even with water leading toward the centre (which Seawatch happily exploits when he takes out Bludgeon ;))
+ In the G1 cartoon episode "Dweller In The Depths", the core of Cybertron appears organic.
+ In the same G1 ep, we come across the "Transorganics" -- essentially ancient technorganic creatures in Cybertron's core.
+ In the G1 comics, Cybertron is populated by technorganic mutants, who claim to have lived on Cybertron longer than the Transformers. Sadly none of these underground mutants are hawt like Futurama's Leela. ;p
+ The ancient Cybertronian's "budding" method of reproduction is arguably technorganic in nature
+ In "The Rebirth," Plasma energy effects all mechanical beings, but organic life is immune. And it's thanks to the Headmasters and Targetmasters who have binary bonded themselves to organic Nebulans (and two humans) that Cybertron is saved and a prophecy fulfilled.

Maybe some necessary Gen1 plot devices just couldn't be translated into a 'metallic' form, so to make it easier for the (young) reader, things were done in an organic manner.
I think it wasn't until Beast Machines that it was (finally) intentionally mentioned and an attempted explanation was made as to an Organic element to Cybertron. (which could be why it wasn't well received by fans)
Before that time, anything organic appeared to be either accidental (by the animators/artists) or unavoidable for the plot to make sense (to a young human viewer).

[GoktimusPrime]

Beast Machines shows a waterfall on Cybertron! You know what else is weird... it's a machine planet devoid of oceans, lakes and forests... but yet it has Earth-like atmosphere! Humans who travel to Cybertron can happily walk around breathing Cybertronian air!

Also... while the size of Cybertron varies greatly according to canonical sources, I don't think it's ever portrayed as being the same size as Earth has it? Cos... Cybertronian gravity also seems to be similar to Earth. We certainly see it when humans are on Cybertron -- they don't 'float' around like on the Moon, nor do they get crushed if they were on a high gravity planet. Even Cybertron's moons seem to have the same gravity as Cybertron itself!

Although one interesting moment in G1 was during the Matrix Quest (part IV) when the Classic Pretender Autobots' fuel was rapidly being depleted because they were moving around (and fighting Decepticons) on a high gravity world. They moved around like normal, but it obviously meant a greater expenditure of Energon in order to do so. :) Seeing the Autobots moving around really sluggishly as their reserves were running low was cool... and of course, made it easier for Thunderwing to pwn them and seize the Matrix for himself. :D

[griffin]

Why wouldn't a planetoid with enough gravity to keep objects (and its inhabitants) from drifting off the surface, not have the gravity to attract and keep gasses or liquids? The lightest element (Hydrogen) is throughout the Universe, and this planet was mostly metal (or rock, depending on your source), so where's the impossibility that elements (Oxygen, Nitrogen) in between them could not exist?

A fair bit of the matter on Earth came from extra-terrestrial debris over the millions of years, including during its formation with the rest of the Solar System... why couldn't Cybertron have formed with, or attracted, these elements?

Unless a writer tried to explain its existence, or tried to explain how it couldn't have existed in the first place, I don't see how or why some fans make such a big deal about it, or even claim that Cybertron shouldn't have an atmosphere or liquids at any time.

[Hursticon]

Why wouldn't a planetoid with enough gravity to keep objects (and its inhabitants) from drifting off the surface, not have the gravity to attract and keep gasses or liquids? The lightest element (Hydrogen) is throughout the Universe, and this planet was mostly metal (or rock, depending on your source), so where's the impossibility that elements (Oxygen, Nitrogen) in between them could not exist?

A fair bit of the matter on Earth came from extra-terrestrial debris over the millions of years, including during its formation with the rest of the Solar System... why couldn't Cybertron have formed with, or attracted, these elements?

That's a pretty concise and highly factual statement there. :cool:
Cybertron's gravity would be ridiculous IMO and is the only reason why I can't see how Humans (Without Assistance) could exist on the planet myself. :o

[Sky Shadow]

In the G1 comics, when the Autobot Classic Pretenders and Rescue Patrol found Primus; it's a technorganic core - even with water leading toward the centre (which Seawatch happily exploits when he takes out Bludgeon ;))

Didn't Blaster say that wasn't actually water on the letters page?


Unless a writer tried to explain its existence, or tried to explain how it couldn't have existed in the first place, I don't see how or why some fans make such a big deal about it, or even claim that Cybertron shouldn't have an atmosphere or liquids at any time.

We know that water is rare on Cybertron in the Marvel TFU, because Octane knew that "thousands of vorns ago during an outbreak on Cybertron, a rare chemical was found" and Ratbat claimed that water was "a chemical so rare that its very existence is suspect!" (Not really that suspect, since Ratbat had used lots of it in his lamest plot ever - the Car Wash Of Doom.) But also not so rare that Bumblebee and Ironhide explicitly knew what water is in their expositions in #1.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I never understood why humans could breath on Cybertron. Never thought about the gravity situation though. Makes sense though.
Think we could say humans abiltiy to survive on Cybertron boils down to plot device meant for children.

[Verno]

Goodness we've covered some interesting topics in this thread.

Maybe Cybetron is smaller, but because of the denser materials it's made from, it has the same or similar gravity to Earth..?

[GoktimusPrime]

Why wouldn't a planetoid with enough gravity to keep objects (and its inhabitants) from drifting off the surface, not have the gravity to attract and keep gasses or liquids? The lightest element (Hydrogen) is throughout the Universe, and this planet was mostly metal (or rock, depending on your source), so where's the impossibility that elements (Oxygen, Nitrogen) in between them could not exist?

A fair bit of the matter on Earth came from extra-terrestrial debris over the millions of years, including during its formation with the rest of the Solar System... why couldn't Cybertron have formed with, or attracted, these elements?
Not impossible, but what an incredible FLUKE that an alien world with NO biomatter or biosphere (or even soil) can sustain an Earthlike atmosphere! What are the odds?!? :eek:


Unless a writer tried to explain its existence, or tried to explain how it couldn't have existed in the first place, I don't see how or why some fans make such a big deal about it,
Cos it's fun for us nerds! <snorting.laff> :cool: That's why I enjoy reading books like this (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2006/3608-1.jpg) which basically takes the Star Wars universe and tears it to shreds with science! It doesn't mean I've liking Star Wars, but I still find it an interesting read. :)

When we watch or read fantasy and scifi we often suspend disbelief of high improbable or impossible things; but every once in a while I find it interesting to stop and think about what would be possible and what wouldn't. ;) As Kevin Smith once said, if you ever had a rocket pack you'd "burn your ass off." ;)


or even claim that Cybertron shouldn't have an atmosphere or liquids at any time.
Not just any liquids... but water. And as Sky Shadow rightly pointed out, canonical evidence from G1 indicates that water doesn't exist on Cybertron. And yeah, that waterfall in BM could be some other kind of liquid. HCl perhaps. ;)



Think we could say humans abiltiy to survive on Cybertron boils down to plot device meant for children.
"A wizard did it." ;)


Maybe Cybetron is smaller, but because of the denser materials it's made from, it has the same or similar gravity to Earth..?
This is true, although it would have to be extremely dense because Cybertron has a LOT of subterranean cavities! :D

[LordCyrusOmega]

If we consider the number of inhabitants of Cybertron then factor in their size I'd say Cybertron has to be bigger than earth. Gravity is questionable though. It could be the ame as Earth because if it wasn't then Transformers would float away here. Real Life application of theory: Cars don't fly away.
Also given that Cybertron was knocked out of orbit gravity would have been interesting until it fell into orbit again.

[GoktimusPrime]

Larger planets would have stronger gravity -- but I guess density plays a role too.

[Verno]

Ok, well as we're talking indepth analysis of everything:

What are peoples thoughts on the Timescale of Transformers History?

For mine, it's just far too ridiculously long. They've been fighting for millions of years. The same characters. They must be pretty crap at fighting if they've been battling for that long.

I really think G1 needs to be redone. Keep big events, and if need be, move some of them. Get the Ark to crash on Earth later if need be, it can't just sit there for millions of years while the War carries on at home.

Go back and do G1 right.

[griffin]

Didn't Blaster say that wasn't actually water on the letters page?



We know that water is rare on Cybertron in the Marvel TFU, because Octane knew that "thousands of vorns ago during an outbreak on Cybertron, a rare chemical was found" and Ratbat claimed that water was "a chemical so rare that its very existence is suspect!" (Not really that suspect, since Ratbat had used lots of it in his lamest plot ever - the Car Wash Of Doom.) But also not so rare that Bumblebee and Ironhide explicitly knew what water is in their expositions in #1.

That's why I specifically didn't mention 'water', only liquids. ;)
Who knows what sort of chemical compounds are common on Cybertron that take on the appearance of water (in a cartoon or comic)...

[theheretic]

Ok, well as we're talking indepth analysis of everything:

What are peoples thoughts on the Timescale of Transformers History?

For mine, it's just far too ridiculously long. They've been fighting for millions of years. The same characters. They must be pretty crap at fighting if they've been battling for that long.

I really think G1 needs to be redone. Keep big events, and if need be, move some of them. Get the Ark to crash on Earth later if need be, it can't just sit there for millions of years while the War carries on at home.

Go back and do G1 right.

:eek: Re-do-G-1! youve gone mad. G1 is da bomb. Sure its got a whole bunch of plots that dont perfectly to fit together and sometimes contradict each other. But come on! It's G1! i don't know how many times I have to say G1 to get through to you so another couple of times.... G1 G1 G1 G1 G1 G1

[griffin]

Not impossible, but what an incredible FLUKE that an alien world with NO biomatter or biosphere (or even soil) can sustain an Earthlike atmosphere! What are the odds?!? :eek:

I don't see how atmospheric elements (oxygen, nitrogen are the main components) have to be tied to biomatter elements (carbon)? Our atmosphere existed before (carbon-based) life began.



Cos it's fun for us nerds! <snorting.laff> :cool: That's why I enjoy reading books like this (http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2006/3608-1.jpg) which basically takes the Star Wars universe and tears it to shreds with science! It doesn't mean I've liking Star Wars, but I still find it an interesting read. :)

When we watch or read fantasy and scifi we often suspend disbelief of high improbable or impossible things; but every once in a while I find it interesting to stop and think about what would be possible and what wouldn't. ;) As Kevin Smith once said, if you ever had a rocket pack you'd "burn your ass off." ;)

That's something that bugs me... there are people in fandoms that like to rant on, to seriously evaluate, justify or question the plausibility of a fictitious story and its plot devices, but then turn around to say that it all shouldn't be taken seriously when more plausible, opposing science or theories are brought in to it.


Ok, well as we're talking indepth analysis of everything:

What are peoples thoughts on the Timescale of Transformers History?

For mine, it's just far too ridiculously long. They've been fighting for millions of years. The same characters. They must be pretty crap at fighting if they've been battling for that long.

I really think G1 needs to be redone. Keep big events, and if need be, move some of them. Get the Ark to crash on Earth later if need be, it can't just sit there for millions of years while the War carries on at home.

Go back and do G1 right.

In my various stories I wrote back in the mid-90s, I never prescribed to the 4million year concept. It just wasn't plausible when you see how much damage they cause in just on year. (Regardless of later claims that the war had periods of peace throughout that time - which would have to be lengthy periods... so wouldn't be the same war. We have wars here separated by just a few years, and they are given different names or objectives.)

In one story I wrote, I had the conflict lasting about 5000 years, on and off, with them crashing on earth in present day (to be revived immediately).

And if the war, any war, goes for that sort of extended period of time, it's no wonder the Movie Optimus is so bloodthirsty and callus.

[Verno]

The characters don't change, just the stories.

Go back and re-do the stories so they're a bit more thrilling, instead of Optimus being killed by Megatron in a computer game.

[Hursticon]

I don't know, I've often thought that the time scale with G1, specifically the many wars, is just a little... long really. :o

I mean, look at Humans, with our pitiful technology we could quite easily destroy ourselves in an instant literally but the TFs have had wars spanning millions of years. :confused:
Either TFs have some really odd rules of engagement or, like in the G1 cartoon, are horribly pathetic marksman. :p:D

I know that there is the fact that they are robots that can be easily rebuilt but you'd think that after the 10th year that someone would come up with a weapon that would extinguish sparks rather than just maim chassis. :rolleyes:

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't see how atmospheric elements (oxygen, nitrogen are the main components) have to be tied to biomatter elements (carbon)? Our atmosphere existed before (carbon-based) life began.
Wasn't the Earth's atmosphere initially toxic? I thought it only became breathable after microorganisms produced oxygen as a by-product and gave birth to the biosphere.


That's something that bugs me... there are people in fandoms that like to rant on, to seriously evaluate, justify or question the plausibility of a fictitious story and its plot devices, but then turn around to say that it all shouldn't be taken seriously when more plausible, opposing science or theories are brought in to it.
There's canonical or continuity logic, and there's scientific logic -- and the two don't always go together. As I said before, when reading or viewing science fiction and fantasy, the audience suspends disbelief for a lot of things. But there are limitations to this. While audiences can suspend sufficient disbelief in mass-shifting to believe that a robot full of mechanical components can transform into a car (where did all those internal robot parts go?) - they may not be able to do the same in believing that a giant robot can transform into a small hand held pistol or walkman.

And different audiences have different tolerances of disbelief... those with zero tolerance are most like those who just hate scifi and fantasy and won't have anything to do with them.

[Hursticon]

Wasn't the Earth's atmosphere initially toxic? I thought it only became breathable after microorganisms produced oxygen as a by-product and gave birth to the biosphere.

Toxic to whom though, to us - yeah, most likely but to a Robot that doesn't 'breathe' then probably not - There is a number of theories floating around about how oxygen was initially produced, personally I believe our Sister Planet Thea had a hand in it as she still affects our planet to this day. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah but I'm talking about how Cybertron's atmosphere is easily breathable for humans. Throughout Transformers we frequently see humans (and Nebulans) on Cybertron breathing its air as if it were the same on Earth. I can believe that, being a near-human species, the air on Nebulos could be the same as Earth... but Cybertron... while perhaps not entirely impossible, seems perhaps rather remarkable.

[Verno]

Another reason we should go back and re-write G1. Add it to the mounting case.

[Gutsman Heavy]

The characters don't change, just the stories.

Go back and re-do the stories so they're a bit more thrilling, instead of Optimus being killed by Megatron in a computer game.

Isn't this just what IDW are doing? (and DW before them)

[Verno]

I certainly hope so :rolleyes:

[Paulbot]

Cybertron is a class M planet. Deal with it.

(Actually Cybertron is Earth isn't it? That's how some ofthe wilder theories go.)

[theheretic]

Cybertron is a class M planet. Deal with it.

(Actually Cybertron is Earth isn't it? That's how some ofthe wilder theories go.)

I hadn't heard that one before. Where do those theories come from?

[Verno]

Ok.

How (over this seemingly billion year war) are new troops brought online?

We've seen the Matrix in Prime's chest is capable of bringing a Spark into the world and into a new body, but how do the Decepticons do it?

Is there a Well of Sparks that shoots them out from time to time at the will of Primus?

And in BW times, we hear tell of the 'Matrix' and the 'Pit' as the Maximal and Predacon facilities respectivaly for reformatting from Autobot to Maximal and for new 'bots to come online, but again, who holds the power to bring forth the Sparks to take up the new bodies?

[GoktimusPrime]

Cybertron is a class M planet. Deal with it.
Which, to me, makes more sense according to Beast Machines' retcon of Cybertron having originally been a planet that sustained organic life. Thus the Class M atmosphere could be a vestige of Cybertron having once sustained a biosphere.


I hadn't heard that one before. Where do those theories come from?
From fanboys'... ya know. ;)



We've seen the Matrix in Prime's chest is capable of bringing a Spark into the world and into a new body, but how do the Decepticons do it?
They have wives and children. I kid you not (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Victory_%28manga%29)...

Predacon Sparks come from a massive foundry on Cybertron known as The Pit (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pit).

[Verno]

Predacon Sparks come from a massive foundry on Cybertron known as The Pit (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pit).

But how is it regulated? Who says how many Sparks come out?

[theheretic]

The kaon pits? I'd love to see the exodus/war for cybertron continuity continue and expand. The only part of the novel I didn't like was the part regarding omega supreme.

[LordCyrusOmega]

Get the Ark to crash on Earth later if need be, it can't just sit there for millions of years while the War carries on at home.

Go back and do G1 right.

If this were to happen where does Beast Wars fit in?

[Verno]

If this were to happen it would eliminate Beast Wars

True. BW happened about 70,000 BC. I'm sure we could find a way to make it work though...

Ahhh...

We get the Ark and Nemesis to travel back in Time through some kind of temporal anomoly to prehistoric Earth before they crash in the 1st place. They can happily sleep for a few million years undisturbed.

That way it's not as long a gap on Cybertron between Prime and Megs dissapearing and then reappearing for G1.

Fixed!

[LordCyrusOmega]

The power of imagination :)

[Verno]

Could very well be the same Wormhole that Depth Charge fell through at the start of Deep Metal. That's why the Maximal High Council had branded that region of space off-limits.

The backstory basically writes itself!

[klystron]

Why wouldn't a planetoid with enough gravity to keep objects (and its inhabitants) from drifting off the surface, not have the gravity to attract and keep gasses or liquids? The lightest element (Hydrogen) is throughout the Universe, and this planet was mostly metal (or rock, depending on your source), so where's the impossibility that elements (Oxygen, Nitrogen) in between them could not exist?



Would just like to point out that gravity is not the deciding factor in a planetoid holding an atmosphere. It must have a magnetosphere (a magnetic field generated by a rotating liquid core) in order to protect against solar wind which will strip a planet of its atmosphere, literally blowing it away into space.
Mars is a case in point. Its large enough gravity wise to hold an atmosphere (bigger than Titan which holds a very thick atmosphere) but has a weak/virtually non-existent magnetosphere, as its dynamo liquid core stopped working billions of years ago. Since then its atmosphere was eroded by the solar wind. To the point where it is today, in that water could not exist as a liquid on the martian surface (even if the temp was right).
(NASA has a good article on this. If I can find it, I'll post a link).

So if Cybertron is to have an atmosphere (which is a requirement in order to have a free standing body of liquid), it must be protected by some sort of magnetic field. Possibly an "organic" molten core left over from the planetoid that Primus originally transformed (aka terraformed) into a mechanical world?

[klystron]

http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast31jan_1/

As for the canon side of things - I've never watched BM, and never will. So it never happened and I have no idea what you are all talking about!
:D

[Verno]

As for the canon side of things - I've never watched BM, and never will. So it never happened and I have no idea what you are all talking about!
:D

Hurrah!

What has been seen cannot be unseen.

[theheretic]

I don't remember BM much. Have to break out my DVD set of it and have a watch

[Verno]

I can find no mention of currency on Cybertron. Does anyone care to enlighten me with any info they have on the subject.

[Sky Shadow]

I can find no mention of currency on Cybertron. Does anyone care to enlighten me with any info they have on the subject.

In the UK comics, Shanix was a universal currency; in the G1 cartoon there were Galactic Credits and in Animated, Swindle and Lockdown trade in weapons and upgrades. But most of the time Transformers deal in energon and fuel.

[SkyWarp91]

In the UK comics, Shanix was a universal currency; in the G1 cartoon there were Galactic Credits and in Animated, Swindle and Lockdown trade in weapons and upgrades. But most of the time Transformers deal in energon and fuel.
^
Yep, basically it - http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Transformer_economics

[griffin]

True. BW happened about 70,000 BC. I'm sure we could find a way to make it work though...

Ahhh...

We get the Ark and Nemesis to travel back in Time through some kind of temporal anomoly to prehistoric Earth before they crash in the 1st place. They can happily sleep for a few million years undisturbed.

That way it's not as long a gap on Cybertron between Prime and Megs dissapearing and then reappearing for G1.

Fixed!

Original Biocards for Beast Wars toys (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Optimus_Primal#First_wave_toy_bios), written up before the cartoon was done, had BW set in post-gen1 "present day" (suggesting they were existing Gen1 characters)... so a story could still be written in the same continuity, but the BW characters may have come a lot later, or be a short-lived story arc of Gen1 characters taking on beast forms for a while for some reason (and revert back for another, plausible, reason).

[Verno]

Definately doable. Restart the old 'truck, not monkey' debate. :p

But I'm only trying to make the timeframe work better. It's like the writers of G1 had no idea how long a millenia was, let alone a century.

We can still have Soundwave take over the Decepticon forces when Megatron and the Nemesis dissappears with the Ark, but instead of him being incharge for 4 millions years (don't quote me on exact time, I'm using 4 million as an example) he's only incharge for a century or two at the most.

Nemesis and the Ark leave Cybertron in say... 1800AD (our time). They go through a wormhole/temporal anomoly thing and are taken back to several hundreds of thousands of years ago and crash on Earth, into the mountain and lay dormant until it explodes in 1985 and start G1.

Everything works...?

[Sky Shadow]

We can still have Soundwave take over the Decepticon forces when Megatron and the Nemesis dissappears with the Ark,

I'm guessing you mean Shockwave (since Soundwave is usually on the ship with Megatron.)


Nemesis and the Ark leave Cybertron in say... 1800AD (our time). They go through a wormhole/temporal anomoly thing and are taken back to several hundreds of thousands of years ago and crash on Earth, into the mountain and lay dormant until it explodes in 1985 and start G1.

This seems unnecessary and too derivative of Beast Wars. Also, one of the poignant aspects of the G1 comics is that Optimus Prime crashed the Ark on Earth was because it had no signs of life and thus he was responsible and guilty for bringing his war to Earth. Even assuming that Prime's idea of life is pretty narrow, it makes him even more ignorant if he decides that a planet covered in roads and the occasional monolith is uninhabited.

[Verno]

I'm guessing you mean Shockwave (since Soundwave is usually on the ship with Megatron.)

Yes, sorry. Shockwave. I had the 'Are All Dead' picture in my head.


This seems unnecessary and too derivative of Beast Wars. Also, one of the poignant aspects of the G1 comics is that Optimus Prime crashed the Ark on Earth was because it had no signs of life and thus he was responsible and guilty for bringing his war to Earth. Even assuming that Prime's idea of life is pretty narrow, it makes him even more ignorant if he decides that a planet covered in roads and the occasional monolith is uninhabited.

Well he's still responcible for bringing the war to Earth, that doesn't change.

If I was under attack from the greatest warship in Transformers history, I wouldn't care where I crashed, as long as it was far away from it.

And the start of the BW has always been reminicent of the start of G1:

2 ships come hurtling out of the sky and crash miles apart on the Earth. Happens in both G1 and BW. If we add a wormhole to G1, it simply makes the mirroring and connection between G1 and BW stronger.

[Sky Shadow]

If I was under attack from the greatest warship in Transformers history, I wouldn't care where I crashed, as long as it was far away from it.

He doesn't crash to get away from a warship, he crashes because the Decepticons have boarded the Ark and he wants to end their lives and save the universe from the Megatron. It's pretty psychotic if he crashes into an inhabited planet to do.

[Verno]

The episode synopsis on the TF Wiki says "Both ships spin out of control, crashing on nearby Earth." Doesn't sound like Prime had much of a choice.

And just watching a quick clip on youtube, Prime's last words before the Ark crashes into Earth is "We're out of control" and he grabs the controls, presumably to try and take back control of the ship and steer away.

So ultimately, in this telling of the crash, Prime is as powerless as everyone else to stop The Ark crashing into Earth.

Is there a different telling somewhere? I'd be interested to read/watch it.

[Verno]

Haha, and that 4 million year timeframe was right. Looks like some of these G1 details are sticking. :p

[LordCyrusOmega]

Granted it was millions of years ago does anyone know exactly what region on Earth the Maximals and Predacons landed on. I know they end up in North America but prior to that?
I always thought the Maximals landed in Africa as the animals they scanned inhabit that area.

[griffin]

Rhinox's fart in 'The Low Road' was shown as a mushroom cloud in central Africa, while they were at the Pred Base.

[Paulbot]

Is there a different telling somewhere? I'd be interested to read/watch it.
The Marvel G1 comics. Prime presses the "crash" button. This is what Sky Shadow was referring to.

[Verno]

The Marvel G1 comics. Prime presses the "crash" button. This is what Sky Shadow was referring to.

Sounds like The Ark had controls like a simple playschool toy with only 4 or 5 buttons. 'Take off', 'Land', 'Shoot', 'Crash'... :p

Africa is a pretty safe bet. Though the Maximals and Preds set some land and air speed records in getting around the planet during BW.

Megs runs from Africa to Siberia in 2-3 minutes.

Megs flies to Mount St. Hilary in a few minutes. But is shown to have visited ths site before, as BA and S'Bolt find parts of his exo-structure in the rubble at the front of the mountain. He must be a strong swimmer to cross the Atlantic in his pre-Transmetal T-Rex mode.

[Hursticon]

So if BW was set 70 odd thousand years ago, could it not be possible that a number of the world's oceans were caught in the grip of one of the many Ice ages? :confused:
If so, that'd make circum-navigating various regions of the globe a little easier I'd imagine. :cool:

[griffin]

The shots of the world from space appeared to have all the land masses and oceans looking as they do today (which was how Africa was able to be recognised).

[Hursticon]

The shots of the world from space appeared to have all the land masses and oceans looking as they do today (which was how Africa was able to be recognised).

This was an in-show reference was it?
If so, have you got an episodes reference? :)

[Verno]

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/35/LowRoad_fart.jpg

That shows the top left hand corner of Africa through to Egypt and the Middle East

[Verno]

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/5b/Aftermath_Quantum_Surge_Earth.jpg

Possibly the bottom of Africa with Madagascar off the coast

-Edit-

Actually I don't know where that is.

[Hursticon]

*snip*

That shows the top left hand corner of Africa through to Egypt and the Middle East

*snip*

Possibly the bottom of Africa with Madagascar off the coast

-Edit-

Actually I don't know where that is.

Beautiful! :D
Cheers Verno, that's exactly what I needed - I believe your Geography is right with both pics. ;):cool:

Blows my Ice-Age theory into outer space to say the least! :p:D

[LordCyrusOmega]

I was going to say it could have been before the continents seperated but those shots blow that up.
I'm still going to think thats how they got around so quickly though

[Verno]

Maybe we'll just chalk the quick movement up to good story telling :cool:

Though if you read some of the toy bio's, some 'bots are pretty light on their feet. And Megs quote about TM2 Cheetor 'someone is out for a little midnight stroll... at Mach 2'.

I'm not sure that second image is southern Africa and Madagascar. There appears to be another large land mass out in the water in what should be the empty Indian Ocean :confused:

[Hursticon]

I'm not sure that second image is southern Africa and Madagascar. There appears to be another large land mass out in the water in what should be the empty Indian Ocean :confused:

That could be India, but I doubt that CG Globe model would be actually accurate to what the world looked like 70,000 years ago anyway. :p

[LordCyrusOmega]

O don't know wat the image is. And if you read my tag you'll understand why I'm ignoring I ever read it :)

Why do the BW characters have names based on their alt modes. What were there names before? Seems a bit conveniant

[GoktimusPrime]

Why do the BW characters have names based on their alt modes. What were there names before? Seems a bit conveniant
Yeah but when you think about it, names like "Hound," "Bumblebee" and "Jazz" make no sense for robots living on an alien world which has no animals even closely resembling dogs or bees... and some four million years before the advent of jazz music. Unless the Cybertronians invented their own kind of jazz and actually called it 'jazz,' which is somewhat unlikely. ;)

But anyway, in pre-Earth Beast Wars, a lot of Maximals who have names that describe their beast modes are actually never referred to by their names on Cybertron, meaning that it's possible that they didn't get their BW names until after contact with Earth (and acquisition of their beast modes). This would also coincide with the first episode of BW where the Beast Wars Transformers, especially the Maximals, introduce themselves to each other after awakening from the R-chambers with their new beast modes ("Call me Cheetor/Rattrap/Rhinox" etc). I believe Optimus Primal was called Optimus Primal on Cybertron, but that's okay because it doesn't describe his beast mode. Megatron originally had a different name until around the time of the theft of the golden disk when he learnt about G1 Megatron and decided to name himself after the legendary Decepticon leader.

But yeah, quite a few characters are only referred to by their designation codes or role descriptors rather than names, e.g. Tigatron was "Unit 2" (as part of the Maximal Command Security Force) and Airazor was "Chromia 10 Pilot." Although "Airazor" would have worked for her too considering that her Cybertronian alt mode was a jet - but of course, both Tigatron and Airazor completely lost their memories so... yeah. :)

Another interesting thing with Beast Wars that G1 didn't do is that their Cybertronian robot modes lack their Earthen alt mode kibble. In G1 you have characters like Bumblebee walking around with Volkswagen Beetle kibble millions of years before he would ever transform into one. In "More Than Meets The Eye Part 1" it's even more ridiculous because he would have VW kibble but transform into that hovercar! :eek: In Beast Wars their pre-Earth robot forms are stripped of their beast mode kibble and shrouded in darkness to obscure their images (and also to save money ;)).

Look at:
+ Beast Wars ep 1, the opening scene when the Axalon and Darksyde are fighting above Earth before crashing -- everyone's shrouded in darkness. We also clearly see Megatron in his pre-Earth robot form (here! (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/0b/BWPart1_preformatting_Megatron.jpg))
+ In a flashback we see Rampage (aka Protoform X) on Cybertron (see here (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/3/3d/BWRampage_Badspark_thepast.jpg)) -- shrouded in stark darkness.
+ When Depth Charge arrives we see him piloting a Starhopper and his Cybertronian robot mode (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/2/25/DeepMetal_DepthCharge_transmetalisation.jpg) is stripped of beast mode kibble.
+ Every member of the Tripredacus Council (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/83/TripredacusCouncil1.jpg) appear in their Cybertronian forms in the cartoon, and thus look nothing like their toys (http://tfu.info/1997/Predacon/Tripredacus/tripredacus.htm).
+ Both the Maximals and Predacons in Beast Wars II are drawn with pre-Gaea Cybertronian robot forms and the Preds actually use them for quite some time before they acquire Gaea alt modes. e.g. Lio Convoy (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/7f/Lioconvoy_preformat.jpg), Apache (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/89/Bwiie06_apache_fuel.jpg), BB, Starscream (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/a7/NewForces_CybertronBBStarscream.jpg), Scuba (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/03/NewForces_CybertronScuba.JPG) etc etc.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I completely forfot about that Gok, you're right. They renamed themselves after aquiring their beast forms.
G1 did have interesting robot modes pre-earth, never made a whole lot of sense.

[Verno]

Don Figueroa's Cybertronian Robot Mode of Magmatron is delicious! It was on one of the comic covers if memory serves and featured a little in the comic. Don also worked backwards on Magmatron's little band of 'bots, as we get to see Cybertronian Manterror and Drill Bit amongst others, and their forms are similar to those when they take on beast forms.

Cybertronian Lio Convoy is shown in Issue 1 of the Gathering, and still has some large resemblance to his earth lion form later in the series too.

So as much as they are 'kibble'less on Cybertron, they really have to take on suitable forms when they are reformatted into their new skins, forms that are reminiscent of their original ones.

I see no gigantic rocket thing mounted on Megatron's shoulder in that picture. Stupid BotCon '06 toys, full of lies.

[GoktimusPrime]

I see no gigantic rocket thing mounted on Megatron's shoulder in that picture. Stupid BotCon '06 toys, full of lies.
I believe that's because BotCon Cybertronian BW Megatron is him inside some kind of armour which he can remove and underneath he looks like the way he did in the BW cartoon pilot. Reference image (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e1/Megatronbwsuit.jpg)

[Verno]

I believe that's because BotCon Cybertronian BW Megatron is him inside some kind of armour which he can remove and underneath he looks like the way he did in the BW cartoon pilot. Reference image (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e1/Megatronbwsuit.jpg)

Well they just thought of everything then, didn't they :rolleyes:

Ok, here's a good one.

When was the last time we saw the Quintessens in any of the miriad of G1 universes?

[Sky Shadow]

Well they just thought of everything then, didn't they :rolleyes:

Ok, here's a good one.

When was the last time we saw the Quintessens in any of the miriad of G1 universes?

In the Transformers: Exodus novel released last year. Also the Shattered Glass Quintessons have been around lately.

[Verno]

Up to no good as usual?

[Sky Shadow]

The Shattered Glass Quintessons are hippies. The ones in Exodus are from the new reunified continuity but it's much the same as the G1 cartoon - the Cybertronians rose against the Quintessons and drove them off. Interestingly it states that the reason some Cybertronian Transformers have cockpits is for Quintesson slavedrivers. In Animated they were only briefly mentioned, but in the Allspark Almanac II they were the "Quintesson Pan-Galactic Co-Prosperity Sphere".

[Verno]

So their modus operandi during the time of BW is relatively unknown?

[Paulbot]

So their modus operandi during the time of BW is relatively unknown?

You asked "recently" right? Beast Wars isn't "recently". :)

The Universe comics show them working with Cryotek and looking to recapture Cybertron post Beast Machines IIRC. I haven't read all those books yet but I recall a scene of them executing the Beast Wars Mutants because they were unmarketable product or something like that.

[GoktimusPrime]

Beast Machines' Oracle turned out to be a Quintesson shell program.

[Verno]

You asked "recently" right? Beast Wars isn't "recently". :)

The Universe comics show them working with Cryotek and looking to recapture Cybertron post Beast Machines IIRC. I haven't read all those books yet but I recall a scene of them executing the Beast Wars Mutants because they were unmarketable product or something like that.

Haha, true. Though BW is more recent than G1. Not timeline wise, but production.

So what's their deal in general? They like to enslave races for... what purpose?

[GoktimusPrime]

Haha, true. Though BW is more recent than G1. Not timeline wise, but production.

So what's their deal in general? They like to enslave races for... what purpose?
Profit. Slaves = free labour

[Paulbot]

Originally they didn't do that much (any?) enslaving. That idea has come from more recent G1(ish) writers trying to merge the comic book/movie (unique Primus/Allspark created race) origin and the cartoon (consumer goods that rebelled on their makers) origins of Transformers.

[Verno]

Profit. Slaves = free labour

That would imply they're in some kind of trade or commerce with others. If so, who?

[Sky Shadow]

That would imply they're in some kind of trade or commerce with others. If so, who?

Animated Swindle.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Quintesson_Journal
Various alien races, basically.

[LordCyrusOmega]

Depending on the media Quientessons either created the Transformers as slaves and warriors or, I don't know.
They seem to want to make money and lots of it. I don't know much more then that.

[Sky Shadow]

In the original script for Transformers: The Movie, the Quintessons were servants of Unicron.

[Verno]

Interesting. So we'd assume they're still around come the end of BW/BM etc.

Any other enemies Transformers have got out there besides the Quints? Excluding the Cybertronian Empire. (Unicron just ate them in my head).

[Hursticon]

Any other enemies Transformers have got out there besides the Quints? Excluding the Cybertronian Empire. (Unicron just ate them in my head).

*Cough* Guardians & Renegades *Cough*

[Verno]

Sorry, I didn't quite catch that Hursty.

[Hursticon]

*Cough* Daleks *Cough*

[Verno]

Ok. Starscream's Ghost appeared in G1 or something if what I read on the Wiki is correct? This is similar or the same to his disembodied Spark we saw in 'Possession' in season 1 of BW? Or something different?

[Hursticon]

Ok. Starscream's Ghost appeared in G1 or something if what I read on the Wiki is correct? This is similar or the same to his disembodied Spark we saw in 'Possession' in season 1 of BW? Or something different?

Whilst he appeared as a transparent visage in G1, he appeared only as a 'Wandering-Eternal' Spark in Beast Wars, save for a rather quick flash of his G1 self in place of Waspinator during a flash of lightning :D, I think most people consider it to be one and the same thing. ;):)

[Verno]

Was it ever stated in G1 exactly why his spark is inextinguishable? Or was it just another case of G1 story-telling not being hindered by details?

[Hursticon]

Or was it just another case of G1 story-telling not being hindered by details?

I'd say this initially. :p:D
It was never explained in G1, no, but I believe that it has since been explained away as simply being a random mutation in his spark... That or sheer determination and will power. ;):cool:

[Sky Shadow]

Was it ever stated in G1 exactly why his spark is inextinguishable?

Because he still had a toy on the shelves and Galvatron had inconveniently killed him.

Sparks weren't even invented until Beast Wars, so he didn't have an "indestructible spark", he just - understandably - happens to be a ghost in a story where Octane found a Decepticon Crypt and then the ghost plot point was used again in Ghost In The Machine.

[Verno]

Yeah, so they just did it then, and nothing has been retconned since to make it make a little more sense thus far.

Anyone care to put forward an idea as to why his spark is immortal?

[Hursticon]

Anyone care to put forward an idea as to why his spark is immortal?

Umm...


a random mutation in his spark... That or sheer determination and will power. ;):cool:

Hehe... :o

I like to think of the Spark as the one and only Biological/Organic element to a Cybertronian Automaton. :)

[Sky Shadow]

Yeah, so they just did it then, and nothing has been retconned since to make it make a little more sense thus far.

Anyone care to put forward an idea as to why his spark is immortal?

It was canonically explained in the comic that came with Masterpiece Ghost Starscream. When Starscream died in Transformers: The Movie, he ended up in Limbo with seven other dead Starscreams from other continuities (including Marvel Comics Underbase Starscream after he was killed in US#50). They all worked together using all their scientific skills and relentlessness to create some crystal soul MacGuffins to bring themselves back to life. Then they fought over the crystals because they each wanted to come back to life and ended up merging together into an indestructible spark ghost.

The comic used to be on this (http://www.allspark.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=71512&st=0) page, but now all I get is thumbnails that become a "Security Violation" when I try to view the full images.

[Sky Shadow]

I found some scans of the Japanese. I'll use my extensive linguistic expertise to translate the relevant pages:

"Here's a hint" (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_03.jpg)

"That's the last time I ask if someone's Megatron. Oh crap, I'm dead." (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_04.jpg)

"Who are you attractive folks?" (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_05.jpg)

"Let's make the best of a bad situation and pool our collective genius to return to the land of the living!" (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_06.jpg)

"Truce over. Yoink!" "What? Get him!" (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_07.jpg)

"Om nom nom" (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_08.jpg)

"Bwahaha! I'm bac... Oh, crap, I'm a ghost. Oh well, I'll just haunt this aircraft carrier." (http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp265/leonard187_2008/MP_03G_Page_09.jpg)

And he was dead happily ever after.

[Hursticon]

LOL - That's as good a translation that I'll ever need. :p:D

[GoktimusPrime]

In the G1 comics, Starscream absorbed the entire Underbase -- and even after his body was destroyed, he continued to exist as an undead zombie.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/383px-ZombieScream1.jpg
His remains were later rebuilt by Ratchet into Pretender Starscream. In G2 Starscream did use the Matrix to mutate and combine himself with Warworld. So I guess it's possible that the absorption of the Underbase and the Matrix may have mutated his Spark rendering it indestructible.


Sparks weren't even invented until Beast Wars, so he didn't have an "indestructible spark",
Well, the term "Spark" wasn't coined or definitively defined until Beast Wars. Although G1 did have similar (albeit more ambiguous) concepts of a Transformer's 'soul' -- the G1 comics called it "life essence" and the G1 comics once referred to it as the "laser core." But G1 and G2 certainly never established Starscream as having an indestructible life essence or laser core. ;)


I found some scans of the Japanese. I'll use my extensive linguistic expertise to translate the relevant pages
Your extensive linguist expertise has somehow transformed the Japanese text into Chinese! :eek:

[Verno]

Whats an 'Underbase'?

[LordCyrusOmega]

Yeah, so they just did it then, and nothing has been retconned since to make it make a little more sense thus far.

Anyone care to put forward an idea as to why his spark is immortal?

I always put it down to him being destroyed so quickly that his spark just didn't catch on. As always read my tag.

[Sky Shadow]

Whats an 'Underbase'?

It's very much like the live-action movies' Allspark - a bigass cubelike thing that's flying through space and full of knowledge and power. Except it was from the G1 comics twenty years before the films.

http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/8347/underbase.jpg

Interestingly, Underbase energy affected Transformers in similar way to Beast Wars energon. That is, Transformers with organic shells or organic components were protected, while 'normal' geewun Transformers tended to be killed by it. A lot. (It killed Jetfire, Bluestreak, Brawn, Gears, Goldbug, Mirage, Hoist, Hound, Jazz, Blaster, Nautilator, Seawing, Snaptrap, Skalor, Overbite, Tentakil, Chase, Goldbug, Freeway, Searchlight, Rollbar, Wideload, Slag, Swoop, Snarl, Sludge, Divebomb, Razorclaw, Tantrum, Rampage, Headstrong, Grimlock, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Octane, Silverbolt, Skydive, Slingshot, Air Raid, Fireflight, Astrotrain, Blitzwing, Prowl, Strafe, Scattershot, Lightspeed, Nosecone, Afterburner, Hun-Grrr, Rippersnapper, Blot, Cutthroat, Sinnertwin, Omega Supreme, Ratbat, Thundercracker and Skywarp, but left the 'organic' Transformers alive.)

[Verno]

Wow, nice death toll then. Did it prompt Pretender shells or something? Or were they already in existance?

[Sky Shadow]

Wow, nice death toll then. Did it prompt Pretender shells or something? Or were they already in existance?

The Pretenders were some of the survivors. The next issue featured the Pretender Beasts for the first time in the US comics.

[Demonac]

The Underbase was a way to eliminate all these characters who no longer had toys on shelves.
The other Underbase survivors were those that were binary bonded to Nebulons (Target & Head masters).

[Verno]

I see, I see, all very interesting.

So we know the Maximals tried to replicate or recreate Starscream's immortal spark with Protoform X, how do you think they might have tried that? We can't recreate the Underbase again to throw at another 'bot.

I'm thinking it may have something to do with prolonged raw energon exposure, or something.

How does that relate to Starscream?

...

Yeah I don't know. Maybe his is just a fluke of nature.

How they reproduced that immortal spark though? Perhaps through Budding?

Budding came from before the time of Sparks, but we must assume that the spark is either split or divided or something.

Perhaps the Maximals got their hands on Starscream's spark and tried to 'Bud' it or split it, and the shard that broke off was Rampage's spark, which grew with the power it was fed.

Rampage's spark was shown to be durable enough to survive being split, perhaps its originator, Starscream's, was the same.

[DELTAprime]

This is just my opinion on what I regard as canon.

--G1--

The way I see it we have too many continuity problems in the G1 cartoon to have a set-in-stone canon. For instance, did Megatron create the Constructicon's or did the Constructicon's create Megatron?

The comics are each there continuity as far as I'm concerned.

Beast Wars is better with the canon. It does start to answer some of the questions surrounding what is and isn't canon in the G1 continuity. But at the same time it makes the idea that Primus created the Transformers the correct origin story, but that means the Quitisons didn't create the Transformers, discounting G1 season 3.

G1 is a mess and nothing anyone says should be canon unless Hasbro ever decides to go back and make some G1 canon with a new G1 based show.

--After G1-Pre Movie--

RiD onwards I regard what happens on screen as canon for those series, if you take in the comics, games, ect there are continuity errors from what I understand.

--Movie--

There are some minor continuity problems if you include the IDW comics, but nothing too major, no worse than Star Trek or Star Wars has in there Extended Universe's. But the other media like games and even toys introduce problems and need to be disregarded or they make a mess of the whole thing.

--Animated and Prime--

With Animated Hasbro really seemed to nail down there continuity, everything seems to fit in well together. And with Prime the fact that they have a game (War For Cybertron) as official canon for it setting up the universe and so far it hasn't being contradicted is really nice to see.

[theheretic]

It would be easier for Hasbro to start a new 'canon' universe (as they may well be doing with WFC) than try to correct all the mistakes made through all the different series and media of the past. And if they tried to correct conflicts of events IE who came first megatron or constructicons then which ever way they were to go they would upset fans as I'm sure there would be hard cores on each side of that fence. I like to think of G1 as more of a war story and that each episode isn't so much as us watching it happen but a retelling of events and in that way it's perceptual and not stone cold facts. Which can solve most problems by simply by realising that the story teller has altered the facts or that they believed this was the way it happened.

Also, I just finished watching BeastMachines. What a S%^ ending. Just the worst eeevvvveeeerrrrrr!

[theheretic]

Oh and just to touch lightly (not like that!) on a subject;

Primus and the Quints - I took it that yes the Quintessons did create the Transformers. Probably chose cybertron in the first place as it may have resembled their home planet at the time they discovered it or may have been detected as a massive power source, hence why they were always so desperate to recover the planet. However it was Primus that gave them life, turned them into more than just machines, gave them their 'spark.' The Quints just provided the body's and gave them knowledge

[Verno]

Primus could have created the early Transformers as a species that had to grow and evolve on their own. He went to sleep, and then the Quints arrived and enslaved the early Transformers. They throw them off with an uprising and herald in the Golden Age of Cybertron.

The early Transformers may simply have been robotic. The Quints may have issued them with the power to Transform to do their slave work.

[GoktimusPrime]

Primus created Cybertron and the Transformers species, however it's possible that when the Quintessons took over Cybertron, they also enslaved the existing Cybertronian population and then overtook the manufacturing of new slaves (thus the new generations were made by Quintessons as per their specifications - military hardware and consumer goods).

A3 (Alpha Trion) was one of the original 13 Transformers created by Primus - thus he wasn't manufactured by Quintessons. However it's possible that he was enslaved by the Quintessons. Perhaps it is because of his non-Quintesson origins that he helped to lead the rebellion against the Quintesson slavers.


The early Transformers may simply have been robotic. The Quints may have issued them with the power to Transform to do their slave work.
The ability to transform was something that Primus instilled in the Original 13 -- mimicking Unicron's ability to change form. Having said that, it's possible that the Quintessons may have made modifications; e.g. introduction of drivers/pilot compartments. Transformers don't need pilot compartments, but perhaps it was for the benefit for the Quintessons' clientele. ;)

[Verno]

Cool.

Ok, lets drag some more BM slander in here:

At what point did the original Transformers 'learn' to transform?

Stupid Beast Machines.

[theheretic]

LOL But I had to vent after watching that last episode of BM. I didn't mind the rest of BM except for it being a bit slow and not enough vehicons.

So what's the plan over-all plan with this discussion? Are you going to write/type something up as a story/history?

[Verno]

Cabbage-Tron is never a good way to end a series :(

I'm writing some Fanfic and just wanted to know what sort of boundaries one can work within, and how much those boundaries can be pushed before you're operating too far out of what is already 'canon'.

If you've got some spare time, read through the whole of this thread, the Vector Sigma / Transmetal Diver (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=11216) thread, as well as my Spotlight: Tarantulas (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=9248) stuff, which is my own random thinkings put together.

[Sky Shadow]

At what point did the original Transformers 'learn' to transform?

Somewhere between nine and four million years ago. In the Headmasters cartoon, transformation is something that has to be learned and is in fact difficult. There are definitely canonical instances where one side 'learned' to transform before the other. In Five Faces Of Darkness from the G1 cartoon it was stated that the Autobots developed transformation first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac1MwjeSsT4&feature=player_detailpage#t=196s and then the Decepticons "learnt" afterwards, shortly before the rise of Megatron. In the Marvel Comics the Decepticons learned to transform first.

[Verno]

I'm sure they actually 'transformed' though, not 'got all shiny and morphed and grew new limbs randomly' ala BM.

[GoktimusPrime]

Beast Machines was Aaron Archer's baby, as was Transmetal 2s, which was Archer's first foray into Transformers. Now, keeping this in mind - go watch the 2007 Transformers movie DVD special features disc... and listen very carefully as Aaron Archer insists that "Transformers don't morph."

Yeah, I had to bite my tongue pretty hard when I first watched that. ;)

[Sky Shadow]

I'm sure they actually 'transformed' though, not 'got all shiny and morphed and grew new limbs randomly' ala BM.

Maybe, but if they could grow entire new Transformers as they did in G2 I'm sure they could potentially evolve transformation as an adaptation.

http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/58/g2issue5powerandtheglor.jpg

[Verno]

I like the idea of budding, but it needs to be re-looked at, because the notion of a Spark adds some problems to it. The Spark has to split in order to make a new 'bot. Or take a Spark so close to death that it opens a small rift to the Allspark that you can steal another one out.

[GoktimusPrime]

Recommended reading:
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Windrazor_%28BW%29
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Twin
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cloning#Dreamwave
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Arcee_%28Movie%29#IDW_post-movie_comics
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Flatline

[Paulbot]

Actually if you start here http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Main_Page you'll find the answers to most of the questions raised in this thread. There's no better online source for what's canon in Transformers than the wiki.

[GoktimusPrime]

Or alternatively, go and read & watch all of G1 and G2. ;) Although TFwiki's fine for overview's summaries :) Also, TFU.info has most of the toy tech spec bios.

[Verno]

So under the right conditions, and with enough skill, a Spark can be split or have a shard removed to power another 'bot.

Now from what I've read, in G1 we had Lasercores as the essence of a Transformer. But with the advent and retconning of Sparks, where do people fit Lasercores into the equation?

I see them as holding the actual memory and personality of the Transformer - What makes them them. The Spark is simply the bit that powers the body, with no real 'will' of its own.

Starscream's spark in BW ep 'Possession' has glowing shafts either side of it, which I see as the Lasercore, thus keeping Starscream's personality connected to the Spark.

Thoughts?

[GoktimusPrime]

RE: Transmetal II

Seriously dude, if you want to gain a more thorough and in-depth knowledge of canon to answer your questions, I strongly suggest that you go and:
+ Watch the G1 eps
+ Read the Marvel comics including Transformers Universe bios (http://www.seibertron.com/comics/universe/index.php)
+ Read the tech spec bios (http://tfu.info/)
+ Watch Beast Wars

And mildly recommend:
+ Watching Japanese G1 anime
+ Reading Japanese G1 manga
+ Watching Beast Wars Second and Beast Wars Neo
The Japanese G1 anime has been available in English for yonks (and I mean real English, not the butchering of the English language that is the StarTV dubs) and readily available in Australian retailers (e.g. JB Hi-Fi etc.). As for the other material - I don't know how much of it has been translated in English (there's a fansub of the BWII movie floating around somewhere), but you may want to consider learning Japanese (if you don't already speak it) to access this material. It's not unheard for people to learn a language for the sake of research -- I've met plenty of people who've learnt other languages to gain more in depth research into all sorts of things e.g. martial arts, cars, theology etc.

Because all you're pretty much doing by asking questions on this thread or even reading TFwiki is accessing information second hand. You're accessing information from people who've already read or viewed sources and are either answering you by citing those sources, or reading TFwiki which summarises information from those sources. But nothing beats getting the information directly by accessing those sources for yourself first hand.

If people are happy with a superficial or brief understanding or overview of canon, then batting questions off others or reading TFwiki is fine - but if you want a more thorough and in-depth understanding of Transformers canon, which judging from the fact that this thread has spanned 16 pages now, I suspect is what you may want... then I strongly suggest that you just go and do your own research by viewing and reading the sources yourself.

Watching cartoons and reading comic books... not a bad research task if you ask me! :D

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

See, I have a much different approach: just don't worry about it. Seriously.
I say this as a friend, much appreciative customer of your excellent BW-finding skills, and philosophy grad/trained adult edumacator/bartender.
If you really need to have some kind of all-encompassing fiction just make your own fan continuity (fanon) and give yourself a really good all-purpose Deus ex Machina - the Odieverse uses a variation on the Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy Infinite Improbability Drive called the WII Drive (the W stands for Wheeljack btw) and everything makes perfect sense even when it's inherently self-contradictory. Also I can just use a WIImote to represent it if I ever get around to making the Odieverse into webcomic form.:D

The canon for most TF continuities is such a nightmare of contradictions and confusion and plotholes you could drive an inexplicably disappearing semi-trailer through that if you sit down and try to make some kind of coherent overarching plot out of it you'll go insane.* I do suggest flicking through the TFwiki if you have any continuity-specific queries, but it won't give you many if any definitive answers canon-wise 'cos there aren't many, especially for G1.

Just sit back, open a nice cold Boags/Cascade, enjoy the awesome little robots/puzzles/whatever-the-alt-mode is toys and the sometimes good cartoons and comics and usually not good videogames we get from this oddly addictive hobby of ours and relax. Giving your girlfriend a shoulder massage and telling her she looks exceptionally beautiful today will be a way more useful and rewarding use of your time and energy.**

* We could really do with an obviously insane smilie btw.
** ;) smilie not included because it looks really seedy there.

[Verno]

RE: Transmetal II

When were we talking about TM2?!


Seriously dude, if you want to gain a more thorough and in-depth knowledge of canon to answer your questions, I strongly suggest that you go and:
+ Watch the G1 eps
+ Read the Marvel comics including Transformers Universe bios (http://www.seibertron.com/comics/universe/index.php)
+ Read the tech spec bios (http://tfu.info/)
+ Watch Beast Wars

But Gok, you love answering peoples questions, and in such great detail too!

You're telling me to watch Beast Wars?! Me?! Most of my questions have drawn on everything pre and post Beast Wars. Beast Wars I've got covered.

You're right OTAG, and in essense that's basically what I am doing: Making my own 'continuity'. Gok coined it "Vernoverse".

But I can't base it on nothing. I have guide lines I have to work within, and if I can draw on previous canonological events and such, then my continuity is all the better for it.

I'm sorry if people are tiring of discussing things. But as this is a message board, and this topic is in the Discussions and Questions area, I thought I was in the right place.

I'm sorry. No more questions from me.

[Paulbot]

If you want answers to questions like "Do TFs have money?" the wiki will answer those.

If you have questions like "where do people fit Lasercores into the equation?" then those are more like it. Those call for interpretation, discussion, debate, but you'll not get a "canon" answer.

And you never know, fan theories and concepts have become canon over time the more the G1/BW/BMac continuity has been expanded.

[Hursticon]

I'm sorry. No more questions from me.

Nah bugger that man, you ask as many questions as you like because no one has the right to suggest you stop asking questions. :cool:
I myself actually really appreciate you asking these questions man because, unlike others on the board, I'm not a running encyclopaedia on TF lore either and I've learnt a number of things from all of your recent threads.
as well as the threads created by others with relevant questions.

To suggest that you should go and watch Beast Wars!?!... I myself find that a little insulting for a number of reasons which I think are way too obvious to mention, but clearly you are someone who, if you had a question about something, would obviously search for answers yourself through the relevant media or at TFwiki, TFU.info and Cobra Island Toys etc. but I understand that sometimes one can just not find the answers to the questions we have so hence we turn to a forum of like minded and knowledgeable people - But it is extremely poor form for people to suggest you should avoid asking questions because they can't be f***** to answer them.

If you don't want to answer a question then don't, but don't then turn around and suggest to people that they shouldn't ask questions just because you feel they should already know the answers or because you could provide an answer but can't be bothered! :mad:


I'm sorry Verno for venting in your thread mate, I wish I could help more but like I've mentioned I'm only learning too and I've tried to impart the little knowledge I have when and where I can. :o
(I've still got to finish my approach to TF Reproduction at some point, just got to get back into that mindset and drive. :o)

I've currently got the IDW Beast Wars Omnibus and Titan Hardback G1 Marvel Reprint: Cybertron Redux (So that I can continue with the following 3 books after that) on the way so that I can learn some more about the TF universe in order to answer some of the questions I have, hopefully I might be able to answer a few more of yours in the future too. ;):)

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't see where anyone has explicitly stated "Don't ask questions" or "Stop asking questions" or any words to such effect.

People are basically trying to help direct Verno to better help himself seek answers to his questions because they do seem to be quite in-depth. I personally don't mind answering questions (you know I can talk about Transformers till the cows come home and then some ;)) -- but seeing as Verno seems to be seeking very in-depth knowledge of Transformers canon, I just thought it may be just more efficient and time-saving for all involved if he just cut the middle-man and went straight to the source(s). In other words, we're encouraging him to become self-sufficient.

It's like that saying, "Give a man food and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for the rest of his life." We could keep going on answering his individual questions, or we could encourage Verno to acquire his own knowledge of Transformers canon and become knowledgeable in his own right.

Besides, all we've been doing is providing Verno with brief explanations or summaries of what's going on. Even TFwiki only gives a synopsis or summary.


But it is extremely poor form for people to suggest you should avoid asking questions because they can't be f***** to answer them.
Look at all the posts that I've posted on this thread. Feel free to do a word count. I think I've spent a considerable amount of time in the past three weeks happily answering Verno's questions -- and I'm not saying that I'm no longer happy to continue answering his questions, but please don't regard three weeks of my time as "can't be f*****". Especially considering that it was an insanely busy time for me being end of semester and I was drowning in reports, marking etc. too. 'Kay thanks.

I don't mind taking the time to answer questions or discuss Transformers -- I just think there could be better use of the time.


but clearly you are someone who, if you had a question about something, would obviously search for answers yourself through the relevant media or at TFwiki, TFU.info and Cobra Island Toys etc. but I understand that sometimes one can just not find the answers to the questions we have so hence we turn to a forum of like minded and knowledgeable people
If the question cannot be found through a simple search on somewhere like TFwiki or TFU.info - then yeah sure, I'd be willing to try to answer such queries if I can (as I'm sure anyone else would). I have no problem with that.

And a suggestion is hardly a directive.

Verno: you're more than welcome to keep asking questions, but for the sake of expediency, may I suggest that you try doing a quick search for your answer yourself first. If you can't find the answer that you're looking for, then by all means ask away. :) It would save you as well as the rest of us a lot of time -- a quick search may take a couple of minutes, but if you post the question here then it make take maybe hours before someone can respond, then you have to read that response.

It's taken me 39 minutes just to type, proof-read and edit this post alone. In this time someone could have watched an entire G1 episode and read an entire comic issue.

[LordCyrusOmega]

I like this thread. Sure it would be quicker to look it up on TFWiki ( where I spend a lot of time anyway) but you don't get the personal touches.
You don't want to waste time replying to threads then don't. Your input is appreciated Gok, always, but don't reply to something then say that you could have spent your time elswhere.

[GoktimusPrime]

...okay, I've calmed down a bit...

Look, I'm more than happy to continue answering questions and discussing things regarding Transformers. Those of you who've met me know that I can just go on forever talking about Transformers without ever getting sick of it. I just thought that Verno might be happier if he were to cut out the middleman and go straight to the source himself. But if he prefers to bat questions off people here, then I'm more than happy to oblige and continue answering his questions.

Thank you.

[Hursticon]

Okay, I too have calmed down a bit so I'd like to clear a couple of things up and put this behind us. :)

Goki, you know I've got quite a bit of respect for you for a number of reasons mate and I know you love to impart your extensive, some what scarily clinical :p, knowledge of TFs onto others - I wouldn't have it any other way. ;):cool:

Please don't think I was solely aiming my comments at you, as I wasn't, but I think that both you and I know that one doesn't have to specifically say something, or say anything for that matter, in-order to convey a message and I think between the tone of a couple of those previous posts and the suggestion to watch the Beast Wars series came across to me and evidently Verno that there was an implied suggestion that he should look elsewhere for his answers and that some were tiring of answering his questions <- This has obviously been misinterpretation. :(

I may of took it too personally from my own experiences of trying to learn from people in a position of teaching and basically being told to bugger off and fend for myself, as I've discussed with you before - This I should not of done and I'm now currently feeling a little like Cheetor (i.e. young and still learning at the age of 26). :o:p

Unfortunately I, and I guess others, didn't quite see it that way so... perhaps one could've maybe worded it a little better but regardless, we now know what the story is and all of this you have cleared up and you've stated what your intent was - what is in the past is in the past eh? :)

As it was you Goki who actually inspired me to want to know more and to seek out various information relating to TFs in varied forms of media, namely those Titan Marvel G1 Reprints which have been an expensive but informative and fun venture :D;), I can definitely agree with you in that acquiring the 1st hand sources for one's self can be quite rewarding and can save one a lot of time, just keep in mind though that some of these resources are freaking hard to come by, can be expensive, and that one might need or prefer the info sooner rather than later and hence would prefer to just ask the questions here. ;)

Also, mate I'd just like to say that I was most certainly not implying that you'd wasted your time in this thread - I apologise if I offended you this way but do know that it was most definitely not my intention as I find it rather comforting to know that I'm not the only one who spends lengthy amounts of time typing, proofing and editing their posts. :p


...

As a thought, it really does go to show how tremendously deep the lore of TFs can be and how hard it can be to ascertain information regarding it, especially when there are quite clearly so many holes within it that just invoking the lore in discussion can produce such passionate debate in all manners of it's existence. :eek:


You're setting yourself quite a task Verno in creating your fan-fiction whilst adhering to as much rule and fact in doing so, please do continue to ask questions man whether you're inclined to go to other websites and sources or not - This thread is becoming quite robust in information and I'd like to see it continue in it's positive direction. ;):cool:

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

You're right OTAG, and in essense that's basically what I am doing: Making my own 'continuity'. Gok coined it "Vernoverse".

But I can't base it on nothing. I have guide lines I have to work within, and if I can draw on previous canonological events and such, then my continuity is all the better for it.

I'm sorry if people are tiring of discussing things. But as this is a message board, and this topic is in the Discussions and Questions area, I thought I was in the right place.

I'm sorry. No more questions from me.No no no, that's so not what I was getting at - please ask away as much as you like.:) I love putting forward my own half-baked theories on TF lore almost as much as Goki does, it's how I kept myself from going nuts during the philosophy days and how I distract myself during dentist visits these days. If I wasn't so flat out with Japan preparations I'd be on this thread all day suggesting Quintessons as an Intelligent Design equivalent for the pseudo-Yahweh Primus, and how the Headmaster process could have been a Primus-subliminally-suggested step towards the Beast Wars incorporation of organic components and subsequent evolution to technorganics (except that in the Odieverse BM is just a bad dream).
Even if it was wearing thin (it's not), 1: you're a mate - and my only friend in Tasmania even remotely close to my own age to boot - so I'd let it slide and 2: there's a whole board of people here who can and are answering your questions without my having to lift a finger. I'm kinda sorry I've been missing out on the fun truth be told.:(
What I WAS trying to point out is that you're pretty much charging at windmills here - which is fine, but I did and do feel kind of obligated to let you know. My comment is in no way a reflection on you, but rather on the mess that is G1 Canon.
I mean, the G1 cartoon series - from which, say, the throwaway line about lasercores which later got retrofitted to fit in with the idea of Sparks (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Spark) introduced in BW, came from - was really just a half-hour long toy advert where continuity and consistency were really peripheral considerations - if they factored in at all.
So we get things like Megatron built the Constructicons on Earth in 1984/5 after being built by them millions of years ago on Cybertron, presumably after he converted them from peaceful architects to outright Decepticons with a tentacle-mind-rape machine. We get Vector Sigma as the only way to bestow life and personality on TFs - apart from the Dinobots and maybe the Constructicons. And possibly the cartoon Predacons (i.e. the Predaking ones), who were apparently built as a joint project by the Decepticons and Quintessons in 5 Faces of Darkness, even though Vector Sigma was nice and safe on Autobot-controlled Cybertron.
And that's all in the same cartoon series. Once you factor in the old Marvel comics (and G2) it gets even more complicated/contradictory (is the Matrix a computer program or an atom-bomb-shaped Autobot artifact? If the latter, how come it never shows up in the X-ray in A Prime Problem? Or even rates a single mention before the Movie? If it's a program, did it fit onto the same floppy disc as Prime's whole personality? Aaargh me Grasshopper head hurt!), and then when you add BW (which as you know was written by writers learning about the existing TF lore/s while writing the series) on top of it it's all just an even bigger mess.
BW set so many of the now-standard TF conventions and did so excellently, but it was still built on, well...
As a thought, it really does go to show how tremendously deep the lore of TFs can be and how hard it can be to ascertain information regarding it, especially when there are quite clearly so many holes within it that just invoking the lore in discussion can produce such passionate debate in all manners of it's existence. :eek:...this.

Nah bugger that man, you ask as many questions as you like because no one has the right to suggest you stop asking questions. :cool:This pretty much spot-on.:)
And of course we're all internet pals here, so even besides Goki and myself being teachers - and not the kind of lousy/burnt-out sit-down-&-shut-up teachers that put so many people off learning:mad: - shooting people with TF questions down just isn't something we'd do.
Sorry for speaking for you @Goki btw.
Please don't think I was solely aiming my comments at you, as I wasn't... <- This has obviously been misinterpretation. :(Purty much, apologies on my part for not being as clear as I should have.
We're all cool by me.:)

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

As for the latest question on Sparks V Lasercores, I'd suggest if you're going to distinguish between the two then Sparks would probably be the 'spirit' bit with the Lasercore pretty much just a physical fuel pump/heart equivalent.
But then according to the TFWiki http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Laser_core#Laser_core_and_Spark the Lasercore has been indicated as the housing unit for the Spark, as indicated by a few bios. But then on the Spark page it says there was an early idea that the lasercore was the core of a spark, so we're right back to WTFland.:rolleyes:
This gets a bit (more) complicated in light of the way the BW animators used the Matrix as Optimus Prime's Spark Chamber in Optimal Situation, but can be salvaged with the throwaway Rhinox line about Optimus' Spark becoming 'one with the Matrix'. This would also help explain the Optimal Optimus upgrade insamuch as the (cartoon) Matrix has historically been shown to upgrade Hot Rod into Rodimus, with the permanent nature of Optimal optimus' upgrade explicable by the 'mingling Sparks' bit and/or differences between Maximal and Autobot technology (greater adavances in the former and/or the 'liquid metal' components). But then you run into the problem of why did BW Megatron also get a permanent upgrade? 'G1'/Guzzler sparks in Maximal/Predacon tech could cover it, but I'd suggest it's at least partially due the resilience of G1 Meg's Spark/will to live - he sure cheated death enough in the original 'toons. And of course Starscream's Spark didn't upgrade Waspinator, but 1: Screamer's Spark is an abberation and 2: Both Primal and BW Megs were Transmetals when they mingled Sparks, whereas Waspy was possessed and had a standard Maximal body.

[LordCyrusOmega]

And of course Starscream's Spark didn't upgrade Waspinator, but 1: Screamer's Spark is an abberation and 2: Both Primal and BW Megs were Transmetals when they mingled Sparks, whereas Waspy was possessed and had a standard Maximal body.

I read in the Beast Wars Guidebook that Waspinator became a transmetal after his and Starscreams sparks were merged which explains Waspinators jet mode.
Did this appear in any media?

[Hursticon]

I read in the Beast Wars Guidebook that Waspinator became a transmetal after his and Starscreams sparks were merged which explains Waspinators jet mode.
Did this appear in any media?

Well I know for a fact that it didn't occur in the show, maybe the Japanese Metals Ps2 game perhaps? :o

[LordCyrusOmega]

Could be. or just the bio. or just written for the guidebook.

[Hursticon]

Could be. or just the bio. or just written for the guidebook.

It's a cool concept, don't get me wrong - Just confusing though as I don't think you see TM Waspinator in any fiction apart from the figure... I could be wrong though. :)

[Hursticon]

As for the latest question on Sparks V Lasercores, I'd suggest if you're going to distinguish between the two then Sparks would probably be the 'spirit' bit with the Lasercore pretty much just a physical fuel pump/heart equivalent.

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Darkone666au/Webpics/Spark.gif

I used to think of the Lasercore as the Nuclei of the Spark with the 'spark' around it providing, the overall name, and the life-force/spirit. ;):)
Now, I see them as 2 separate technologies re: here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=11216&page=2). :cool:


But then according to the TFWiki http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Laser_core#Laser_core_and_Spark the Lasercore has been indicated as the housing unit for the Spark, as indicated by a few bios. But then on the Spark page it says there was an early idea that the lasercore was the core of a spark, so we're right back to WTFland.:rolleyes:

Oh the joys of our beloved fiction huh?, lol! :p:D


This gets a bit (more) complicated in light of the way the BW animators used the Matrix as Optimus Prime's Spark Chamber in Optimal Situation, but can be salvaged with the throwaway Rhinox line about Optimus' Spark becoming 'one with the Matrix'. This would also help explain the Optimal Optimus upgrade insamuch as the (cartoon) Matrix has historically been shown to upgrade Hot Rod into Rodimus, with the permanent nature of Optimal optimus' upgrade explicable by the 'mingling Sparks' bit and/or differences between Maximal and Autobot technology (greater adavances in the former and/or the 'liquid metal' components). But then you run into the problem of why did BW Megatron also get a permanent upgrade? 'G1'/Guzzler sparks in Maximal/Predacon tech could cover it, but I'd suggest it's at least partially due the resilience of G1 Meg's Spark/will to live - he sure cheated death enough in the original 'toons.

That's pretty much exactly how I've always seen it too as I sort of like the idea that Prime's Spark merged with the Matrix as it gives rise to the explanation of why the right barer gets an upgrade, as you say :cool:, a pity that the scene of the Maximals replacing G1 Megatron's Spark was cut eh? :(

[Verno]

I always thought a "Prime" drew their power from the Allspark via the Matrix.

When Optimus Primal took the 'Matrix-shaped' object from Prime's chest in Optimal Situation, I believed he was taking the 'actual' Matrix into his body, as a Prime's spark is in essense already one with the Allspark inside the Matrix.

So basically, The Matrix is a Prime's Spark that is empowered by the Allspark and is housed in the double-handled canister we know and love.

[Hursticon]

So basically, The Matrix is a Prime's Spark that is empowered by the Allspark and is housed in the double-handled canister we know and love.

Ooh! - Now, I like this. :D:cool:
So every recipient would essentially hand over their spark to the Matrix upon receiving it yeah? and hence the upgrade?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I read in the Beast Wars Guidebook that Waspinator became a transmetal after his and Starscreams sparks were merged which explains Waspinators jet mode.
Did this appear in any media?Not outside of the Guidebook that I know of, and when Waspy has a flashback to his leaving Earth in BM he's pretty clearly his standard self.
I think he's a TM in the N64 game, but then that's yet another splinter timeline.

[Hursticon]

I think he's a TM in the N64 game, but then that's yet another splinter timeline.

Was in N64 was it? - I knew it was a Japanese exclusive game anyway. :p
It's a cool concept for how Waspinator gains his TM form, a real pity that Hasbro decided to keep him the way he was in the show but I suppose things may of turned out to be quite different subsequently. :o

[Verno]

Ooh! - Now, I like this. :D:cool:
So every recipient would essentially hand over their spark to the Matrix upon receiving it yeah? and hence the upgrade?

Correct.

There's only meant to be one Prime at a time, as far as I know, thus there is only one spark in the canister at a time, as a dying Prime (IE Optimus in TF:TM) hands the canister on as their spark rejoins the Allspark for good, and the new power up comes when a new Spark is 'chosen' by Primus (IE Hot Rod in TF:TM)

[Hursticon]

Correct.

There's only meant to be one Prime at a time, as far as I know, thus there is only one spark in the canister at a time, as a dying Prime (IE Optimus in TF:TM) hands the canister on as their spark rejoins the Allspark for good, and the new power up comes when a new Spark is 'chosen' by Primus (IE Hot Rod in TF:TM)

Excellent, that suits me quite dandily. :cool:

[Verno]

Thus Primal didn't get a full upgrade because he took the Matrix into his body, but there was already a Spark being housed in it - Prime's.

Also, the Matrix-canister become a vessel of knowledge of all the other Prime's that have come before and helps the Prime's that are to come.

[GoktimusPrime]

Transmetal Waspinator certainly existed in toy continuity. :) Too bad his vehicle mode isn't anywhere near as cool as it looks in pictures. :(


I always thought a "Prime" drew their power from the Allspark via the Matrix.

When Optimus Primal took the 'Matrix-shaped' object from Prime's chest in Optimal Situation, I believed he was taking the 'actual' Matrix into his body, as a Prime's spark is in essense already one with the Allspark inside the Matrix.

So basically, The Matrix is a Prime's Spark that is empowered by the Allspark and is housed in the double-handled canister we know and love.

Ooh! - Now, I like this. :D:cool:
So every recipient would essentially hand over their spark to the Matrix upon receiving it yeah? and hence the upgrade?

In short: no.

However this is where things kinda get messy. According to G1/G2 canon, the Matrix is either:
+ A collective font of knowledge, according to the G1 cartoon
+ A divine artifact forged from Primus' life essence, according to the Marvel Comics.

But what happened in Beast Wars was that Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio misunderstood the nature of the Matrix. Basically they watched Transformers The Movie and saw how Optimus Prime passed the Matrix to Ultra Magnus etc etc., but of course, TFTM itself doesn't explain what the Matrix is precisely. So Forward and DiTillio assumed that it was a receptacle to hold Optimus Prime's Spark - and thus that's how it was visually portrayed in Beast Wars. However Beast Wars itself never explicitly stated that the Matrix was a Spark receptacle... we just saw it become empty after Optimus Primal placed Optimus Prime's Spark into his body. The show itself never explicitly provided an explanation for this per se.

As Odie said before, the Forward and DiTillio were researching G1 and G2 while they were writing Beast Wars; so in this case they didn't understand the full nature of the Matrix because they were only looking at one canonical source. And remember that in those days, TFwiki didn't exist. :) It's pretty awesome that Forward and DiTillio even bothered to give up their own spare time to research G1 and G2 (and also consult with fans too) to try to make Beast Wars fit into previous TF canon - as cumbersome as it was (is) - rather than taking the easy way out and doing a continuity reboot (which is what most TF writers have been doing for the past decade (>_>)).

So if you look at Beast Wars in complete isolation (i.e. totally ignoring all other TF canon), then okay, the Matrix could be seen as a receptacle for a Prime's Spark. But when you look at it in the bigger picture and take in other TF canonical sources, then basically the answer is no. Especially since Primus has been retconned as a Multiversal Singularity too - I imagine that the Matrix across the multiverse may have been forged from Primus' life essence.

[Verno]

I'm sure, even you Gok, have to admit that a Spark held within a container, powered by the All-Spark (Ie, Primus himself) and is known as 'The Matrix' is a better notion than some mystical device held in the chest of a 'Prime'.

[Verno]

Transmetal Waspinator certainly existed in toy continuity. :) Too bad his vehicle mode isn't anywhere near as cool as it looks in pictures. :(

I'd love to know how far down the production line Transmetal Scorponok and Transmetal Tigatron got. I know there are pictures floating around on the net of what they would have been like, but they make me sad that we didn't get a whole line of 'produced' Transmetal moulds of the show characters.

[LordCyrusOmega]

Wasn't Transmetal Tigatron an exlusive? Sure I've seen him for sale somewhere.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Yup, Botcon exclusive. Unless Verno means some other TM Tigatron that got cancelled, which is quite possible.
TM Scorpy was a McDonald's toy IIRC.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm sure, even you Gok, have to admit that a Spark held within a container, powered by the All-Spark (Ie, Primus himself) and is known as 'The Matrix' is a better notion than some mystical device held in the chest of a 'Prime'.
Nope. I prefer the notion of the Matrix being a divine artifact that Optimus Prime carries inside his chest. But maybe it's my G1 bias kicking in there. As I said before, if you looked at Beast Wars continuity in isolation, then yes, the notion of it being a Spark container works. However if you want to look at it as part of overall Transformers continuity, then it doesn't because there's too much contradictory canonical evidence from other sources - and Beast Wars canon itself doesn't sufficiently support the container notion when faced against opposing notions from G1 and G2.

While Forward and DiTillio had misunderstood the Matrix as being a container for Prime's Spark, this notion was never explicitly stated in the Beast Wars cartoon -- all you really have is an ambiguous visual cue; which confused the crap out of Transfans at the time and sparked huge debate about what it meant... until the truth behind it was revealed (i.e. misunderstanding on part of the writers). G1 and G2 canon on the other hand explicitly states the nature of the Matrix and does NOT state that it is a receptacle for a Spark (lasercore or life essence). G1 cartoon continuity states that it is a collective font of knowledge, and the G1 comics repeatedly and very explicitly defines the Matrix as being created from Primus' Spark and is thus a divine artifact. This is also why it is the one thing in the universe (multiverse) that Unicron fears - because it was forged from the life essence of Primus himself and thus it is Primus' power stored in the Matrix that can destroy Unicron.

In fact, when the Matrix once attempted to attack Unicron (using Thunderwing as its vessel), it was powerless because the Matrix had succumb to evil - and as Unicron put it - in that realm he has no equal! (and thus destroyed the corrupted aspect of the Matrix, inadvertantly re-purifying it) It was only when Optimus Prime picked the Matrix up again and plunged it into Unicron's maw, that Primus' light - untainted by evil - was able to destroy Unicron. In G2 when Starscream used the Matrix to merge himself with Warworld and transform it into his new body, Primus' light started changing Starscream's behaviour - making him a force for good. This irritated Starscream who then surrendered the Matrix back to Optimus Prime. And of course, it was the divine power of the Matrix that defeated the Swarm, purifying it, and - as retconned - ultimately led to their evolution into becoming the Vok.


Yup, Botcon exclusive. Unless Verno means some other TM Tigatron that got cancelled, which is quite possible.
TM Scorpy was a McDonald's toy IIRC.
Yeah, I have that Transmetal Scorponok toy. :) I also have Transmetal Dinobot and Blackarachnia which were only available as Maccas Happy Meal toys (note I said Transmetal, not Transmetal 2 ;)).

[Sky Shadow]

Wasn't Transmetal Tigatron an exlusive? Sure I've seen him for sale somewhere.

If you mean at retail, you're thinking of Transmetal II Tigerhawk.

[Verno]

No, no, no, no, no...

TM Scorponok
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Primus_Feather/tmconcept3.jpg

TM/Fuz Optimus Primal
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Primus_Feather/tmconcept2.jpg

TM Tigatron
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Primus_Feather/tmconcept4.jpg?t=1269146253

TM Blackarachnia and others
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y35/Primus_Feather/tmconcept1.jpg?t=1271239730

[GoktimusPrime]

<shrug> I guess unless we see any more evidence, we can assume that they didn't get much further than these conceptual sketches, much like a lot of other Transformers like Action Master Galvatron, Action Master Perceptor (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/60/GenerationsDeluxe-AMPerceptor.jpg), Reverse Megatron (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/8e/Megalvatron.jpg), Action Master Bruticus, credit-card Rodimus Prime et al.

[Sky Shadow]

Those were never going to be produced, Verno, that was just fan art from a BotCon about a decade ago. (Ironically, for a thread called 'Canon' very little of this is actually canonical. Maybe it should be changed to 'Hypotheticals'.)

[LordCyrusOmega]

If you mean at retail, you're thinking of Transmetal II Tigerhawk.

No, I saw him online somewhere or in someones collection or somewhere in toy form.
Though the toy I saw is a repaint of Ravage, not the one in the pictures.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Those sketches look sweet.
No, I saw him online somewhere or in someones collection or somewhere in toy form.
Though the toy I saw is a repaint of Ravage, not the one in the pictures.Yup, Botcon exclusive (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Image:BWtoy-TigatronTransmetal.jpg). Ironically no stripes.
Good luck finding one if you want one...

[Sky Shadow]

No, I saw him online somewhere or in someones collection or somewhere in toy form.
Though the toy I saw is a repaint of Ravage, not the one in the pictures.

Ah, okay - it could have even been my one, then:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6593/orcanoch2.jpg

[Verno]

Those were never going to be produced, Verno, that was just fan art from a BotCon about a decade ago. (Ironically, for a thread called 'Canon' very little of this is actually canonical. Maybe it should be changed to 'Hypotheticals'.)

Since when do topics always stay on topic? :rolleyes:

[Verno]

Ok. So how did TM2 Dinobot get the Original Dinobot's memories after Rampage was killed by Depth Charge?

Yes, Megatron used a copy of Dinobot to clone him, but the copy was taken well before the events of 'Code of Hero'.

Anyone got any theories?

[GoktimusPrime]

The closest thing to an official explanation would be the scripted episode Dark Glass (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Dark_Glass) written by Larry DiTillio... but of course, this episode was never produced, but then again, existing canon doesn't necessarily conflict with it either... so I guess you could take it as pseudocanonical evidence. <shrug>

[Sky Shadow]

If Starscream's ghost could possess Waspinator et al, there's no reason why Dinobot's own ghost/spark/soul etc. couldn't have possessed Dinobot II once Rampage's had left the building.

[GoktimusPrime]

Possessing a body just to die again?! Who does that?! (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Flashback!) :p ;)

Blood-dee hell, I can't find Frenzy & Rumble anywhere at my local stores! I had a search online today, and the only place I could find them was at Robot Kingdom, who have now jacked their price for that set up to US$59.90! :eek:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_spitdrink.jpg

Does anyone know if Hasbro Australia has any plans on releasing these toys here??? Maybe I should give Hasbro AU a call... (>_>)