iGear PP05

[Prowl]

Seeing this gave me wood> Two of my favourite G1 characters finally getting the proper like treatment.

Apologies if old

http://shop.igeartoys.com/image/data/Transformers/other/pp05/teaser.jpg

[PCVirus]

I have to agree, they are awesome!

[kaiden]

http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=11024

[kaiden]

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961017745891_100000959844.jpghttp://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961034412556_100000959844.jpg

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961051079221_100000959844.jpghttp://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961097745883_100000959844.jpg

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961084412551_100000959844.jpghttp://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961067745886_100000959844.jpg

http://i1210.photobucket.com/albums/cc410/LamDX/Transformers/3rd%20Party/267732_222961001079226_100000959844.jpg

[Sharky]

that ratchet actually looks prettey good

[Prowl]

Drool puddle formed.

[mentok27]

I new there was a reason i hadnt picked up Universe/Henkei Ironhide or Ratchet..... as long as these are noticably shorter than voyager prime I'm getting them fo sure.

[kup]

I new there was a reason i hadnt picked up Universe/Henkei Ironhide or Ratchet..... as long as these are noticably shorter than voyager prime I'm getting them fo sure.

I think they are Masterpiece scale as that's their intended 'display' design.

[Lint]

I think they are Masterpiece scale as that's their intended 'display' design.

That pic next to not-reflector seems to indicate otherwise. In fact my guesstimation would be that they will be the same scale as Generations G2 Prime, who is one of the smaller-than-average deluxes.

Kind of dissapointing.:(

[mentok27]

That pic next to not-reflector seems to indicate otherwise. In fact my guesstimation would be that they will be the same scale as Generations G2 Prime, who is one of the smaller-than-average deluxes.

Kind of dissapointing.:(

I saw a pic on tfw... Or seibertron... Anyway, the prototype was the same height as voyager prime, maybe a bit under but effectively the same.... This puts me in a grey zone. It's not that much too big, and still miles better than universe/Henkei counterparts... Have to wait till colour shots and photos next to chugs in both bot and alt mode look like... And price of course

[kup]

That pic next to not-reflector seems to indicate otherwise. In fact my guesstimation would be that they will be the same scale as Generations G2 Prime, who is one of the smaller-than-average deluxes.

Kind of dissapointing.:(

You are right, I stand corrected. Maybe I am remembering something that was said or saw when they were first announced which described them as intended MP scale figures taller than Voyager Prime, similar to MP Grimlock's scale.

Anyways, that kills it for me. I am happy enough with my Henkei Ironhide & Ratchet to get this. If they were MP scale, I would have gotten them.

[kaiden]

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=115

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=116

wow! preorder both for $110US each!



......

[kup]

Based on those IGear pictures, it's only about a head taller than G1 Prime.

http://shop.igeartoys.com/image/data/Transformers/other/pp05w/22.jpg

http://shop.igeartoys.com/image/data/Transformers/other/pp05w/21.jpg

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=common/home

At $110+shipping I would have expected the toy to be at least Binaltech size. At this point it seems like a tall deluxe like Sunstreaker.

Sorry, scale and price breaks it. It looks like an awesomely designed toy but I already have a Classics Ironhide. They should have aimed for the MP scale where that 'gap' needs to be covered not gone for a scale where an official toy already fulfils it.

Yeah this toy is vastly superior to the Universe/Henkei toy but the price is too much for a substitude of a character I already have and a toy I am happy with.

[1AZRAEL1]

Price kills it for me. Almost the same prices as their MP Coneheads. Looks great, but as Kup said, too much for a figure that only substitutes a figure that already fits well with the Classics figures. MP size would have been better to aim for if they were going to do it.

[kaiden]

At $110+shipping I would have expected the toy to be at least Binaltech size. At this point it seems like a tall deluxe like Sunstreaker.

its free shipping :) but i agree that the price is kinda way too high.

but all those accessories tempt me...

[kup]

Even with free shipping, it's WAY over priced.

[Ultra Mackness]

My dreams are crushed over this. I missed out on the classics version of these and wanted these as placeholders, and they look like fantastic renditions, but I just can't justify the price.


That said I'll probably break in a couple of months and order it!

[mentok27]

Even with free shipping, it's WAY over priced.

not WAY..... with all those accesories and stuff i could handle $200US shipped internationally to me, i mean thats alot of gear they have. I figure getting a set of Universe/Henkei ironhide/ratchet shipped to me would fetch $150 and id put all those acc at $50(if multi compatable with the rest of my CHUG's) so i was anticipating something like $85each plus shipping....

[Lord_Zed]

Yeah I also don't think its way overpriced, considering the cost of things like Defender, PE Rumble and Frenzy and the FP upgrades I think this isn't so bad. At least not when you consider the cost of the various Arcee toys, and the Steam Train and other alternate universe Prime's

The amount of accessories also makes it appear more appealing as a stand alone toy than the similarly sized and priced Exgraver toy.

It is on the higher end of town, but as a big Ratchet fan I'm tempted, but I'd like to see a painted pic first.

We also know how much Impactor will likely cost now.

[mentok27]

We also know how much Impactor will likely cost now.

oh yeah..... just decided im gonna skip Ironhide/Ratchet for now and aim for impactor, if he really wow's me ill pick the other 2 up later(hopefully).

[Lord_Zed]

oh yeah..... just decided im gonna skip Ironhide/Ratchet for now and aim for impactor, if he really wow's me ill pick the other 2 up later(hopefully).

Yeah, My Jury is still out till we see painted pics. but Impactor should be a definite (unless they jack the price up even more!!!!!!). Alas if these guys are only coming out at the end of the year he must be a long way off.

[bruticus]

hahaha...
you guys are all upset about the scale...
i'm sure that if people can offer a shrunken MP-01, then a masterpiece scaled voyager is only a click of a button away. the design details are certainly there for an upscaling if they wanted to.

110USD shipped price is also not too bad (even for a deluxe/voyager) given all the accessories that it comes with and MGT-01 arcee (with some small diecast and 2 tiny guns) is being sold for 109.2USD. the tragic part is that the price for these figures are going to get even cheaper for us each day as the USD tanks it!! :rolleyes::p

[kaiden]

hahaha...
you guys are all upset about the scale...
i'm sure that if people can offer a shrunken MP-01, then a masterpiece scaled voyager is only a click of a button away. the design details are certainly there for an upscaling if they wanted to.

110USD shipped price is also not too bad (even for a deluxe/voyager) given all the accessories that it comes with and MGT-01 arcee (with some small diecast and 2 tiny guns) is being sold for 109.2USD. the tragic part is that the price for these figures are going to get even cheaper for us each day as the USD tanks it!! :rolleyes::p

$1AU = $1.10US currently >_>

[UltraMarginal]

It's a lot @ $110 each. I realise their production costs are probably pretty high not producing millions of these but there has to be a limit out there to the number of collectors who can fork over $100 every month on top of their regular collecting expenses.

aside from that, I think these look really awesome, I am saddened that HasTak aren't coming up with designs like this.
I also think that the esgraver looks incredible, but for around $700 for the set when including postage, I just can't fork out that sort of money.

I do have a lottery ticket though...

[mentok27]

It's a lot @ $110 each. I realise their production costs are probably pretty high not producing millions of these but there has to be a limit out there to the number of collectors who can fork over $100 every month on top of their regular collecting expenses.

aside from that, I think these look really awesome, I am saddened that HasTak aren't coming up with designs like this.
I also think that the esgraver looks incredible, but for around $700 for the set when including postage, I just can't fork out that sort of money.

I do have a lottery ticket though...

certainly does seem like theres more Wants on the way than ive had in a long while but i dont see how you can say TFC hercules is $700 when Robot kingdom has 1/6th of it listed as $77.90 and i just orderd it and 4 other things which ended up with a combined postage of $37, so $7.40 per item.... factor in conversion to AUD and your looking at $80 for 1/6th..... $480aud for the whole thing.

course thats based on a variety of factors that are fairly fluid but the general idea im getting at is Hercules will not cost $700 if you do it right.

[Prowl]

My dreams are crushed over this. I missed out on the classics version of these and wanted these as placeholders, and they look like fantastic renditions, but I just can't justify the price.


That said I'll probably break in a couple of months and order it!

I feel ya. I really do. Must not crack but who am I kidding. They are two of my favourite characters.

[Lord_Zed]

Yeah, all up 3rd party items are really expensive in general it's only the high dollar that offsets a lot of the pain. I mean if the dollar were back to what it was a few years ago then even some of the most affordable items like FP's Crossfire upgrades would have set people back a lot. If anyone should be complaining about these prices its Americans, and I would have thought they were one of the toys primary markets.


certainly does seem like theres more Wants on the way than ive had in a long while but i dont see how you can say TFC hercules is $700 when Robot kingdom has 1/6th of it listed as $77.90 and i just orderd it and 4 other things which ended up with a combined postage of $37, so $7.40 per item.... factor in conversion to AUD and your looking at $80 for 1/6th..... $480aud for the whole thing.

course thats based on a variety of factors that are fairly fluid but the general idea im getting at is Hercules will not cost $700 if you do it right.

It's a double edged blade though, or risky either way you look at it, order now and save money, at the risk of the toy turning out crap, or wait and check the toy and risk the cost going up if the dollar drops.

[SkyWarp91]

If I got enough dough by the end of the year (same time this thing comes out) I'm game to buy both of them. By the way how is stock-keeping with iGear? Do they restock items that are sold out or is this a one time thing?

[Ultra Mackness]

I'm beginning to feel my resolve to wait for these guys weakening...I want to wait for colour pics of the completed toy, but even just the prototype images are convincing. It's the robot I wanted Ironhide and Ratchet to turn into back in the 80's.

[Senor_2]

Resurrecting an old thread I know (I couldn't find it mentioned elsewhere), but this has been put up for pre-order on TFSource (http://tfsource.com/products/view/product_id/2844/) along with a similar not-Ratchet for USD$119.95

I wish my G1 Ironhide robot mode looked this good!!

[Sky Shadow]

Their heads are above their windscreen. :( They should have designed them so the head could be lowered into the chest and look out the windscreen as all good Ratchets and Ironhides should. Otherwise, if these were real Transformers, I would buy an Ironhide because I love the way they've integrated the battle platform weapons into the design, and the water gun hand attachments are also clever.

[Ultra Mackness]

My resolve broke. These guys are now available in stock at igear. They look brilliant. I ordered one of each. When they arrive I'll post some photos, but in between:

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=131

[Lord_Zed]

There still not released yet, but I do like the multiple head options. Much like the mini Shockwave in another thread the little touches are nice.

[Ultra Mackness]

I went by the individual pages which have them listed as in stock. I really hope they are - I've been waiting for what seems like ages now for these guys to be released!

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=116

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=115

[1orion2many]

Very nice but a real pity about that price:eek:

[Lord_Zed]

I went by the individual pages which have them listed as in stock. I really hope they are - I've been waiting for what seems like ages now for these guys to be released!

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=116

http://shop.igeartoys.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=115

You and me both, I've had one on order since last year.

It's a calculated risk like Hegemon was, but it will be interesting to see how Igear fare with a completely new larger size toy. At any rate I really dig the work of their sculptor.

[Ultra Mackness]

I sent an email to igear querying when these will be released earlier tonight. I just heard back from igear and they say that these will be released between the 20th and 30th of July. Allowing the 2-3 weeks shipping they quote on their site that hopefully means they should be arriving by the end of August. Fingers crossed.

[Lord_Zed]

Unfortunately you can't set your watch by Igear, however I'm hoping this is all cause it's there first foray into making new toys larger than scout size from scratch. So I hope they pick up speed with future releases like Presser and the Sharkticon guy.

[Lord_Zed]

Not to be a buzz kill but has anyone noticed that Medics "ambulance" marking is on backwards, 3rd parties sure could use English proof readers.

Also Igear are only selling them as a duo on their web page now, which is also odd.

*Edit* my mistake it appears to be on purpose for rear view mirror viewing, though still doesn't explain why you can't buy them separately anymore.

[Ultra Mackness]

Hehe, I think that having the word "ambulance" backwards is a pretty cool feature and is some real attention to detail. I really have high hopes for these guys (especially considering the price tag!) and I know it seems silly, but the thing I'm really hoping they have is actual rubber for the tyres. With the amount of chrome they have, including the side mirrors, I think that the rest of them will be great though.

In terms of them removing the individual pages however, this could be a good sign. They were pre-order pages, and leaving the duo page would leave the pre-order incentive for those that are really keen, but for those that only wanted one or the other, the pre-order discount may have been removed.

They may now actually be in hand, or being delivered to igear for distribution as I type (this is of course me speculating with fingers, toes and everything else crossed! C'mon, it's been over a year now and I'm sick of waiting!) :)

[1orion2many]

I keep looking at these, I just can't get past thst price:(. I know the new MP's aren't much bigger but they are a lot cheaper, I think on average around $65.00 Aus per new MP (12 & 14) compared to $110.00 per item. Sigh!

[kup]

I keep looking at these, I just can't get past thst price:(. I know the new MP's aren't much bigger but they are a lot cheaper, I think on average around $65.00 Aus per new MP (12 & 14) compared to $110.00 per item. Sigh!

It is pricy but keep in mind that you get a tonne more accessories and display options. It is also likely to be free shipping from Igear shop which does bring it closer to what the Japanese Sideswipe MP will cost and that is only a bit taller than a deluxe.

[Lord_Zed]

Yeah the price is pretty standard for 3rd parties, and when you consider the cost of MP Sideswipe, it's fairly standard for collectors toys in general. Not saying it's a good thing, but with the value to quality ratio of Hasbro's main lines deteriorating I fear it's hear to stay.




They may now actually be in hand, or being delivered to igear for distribution as I type (this is of course me speculating with fingers, toes and everything else crossed! C'mon, it's been over a year now and I'm sick of waiting!) :)

It's not on its way till we get that fateful email, and even then free shipping is not fast shipping. I share your eagerness though, I am actually equally eager to get this toy as I am the larger Giant from Maketoys. Mostly because I'm curious to see what Igear can do with a larger toy, could be good, could be bad, finding out should be fun though.

[Ultra Mackness]

I just checked the preorder page on the igear website, and it appears that they have pushed back another 10 days to be released on 10-08-2012 :(

Not happy Jan.

[VERT]

But My order page has changed. Did just say paid. Now its saying awaiting shipment so thats a good start i guess.

[Trent]

It really is a joke what you guys have had to go through with these. I'm glad that they don't interest me.

[Ultra Mackness]

I think you may be right Vert. I got this response to my email this morning from igear:

"The pp05 is releasing, but all orders will be shipped before August 10."

So hopefully they have them in hand and are processing orders over the next 10 days.

fingers crossed.

[Trent]

Seems as though people are receiving shipping notices for these. For those of you who have ordered, then waited, waited, waited, waited and waited some more, your time is at hand.

Keen to hear reviews.

[Lord_Zed]

I haven't go my notice yet, however the website does list them as instock now, so hoping.

Three delays are enough thanks.


Edit: I stand corrected I did get shipping notice after midnight, talk about 11th hour.

[VERT]

Wow mine ARE SHIPPED! they had a photo up on face book the other day showing all the boxes of them too.

[Ultra Mackness]

Me too :D:D

Now I'm beginning to get excited. When I first decided to get these, I was thinking they would fit into my classics line, but now with the pics, they look closer to MP. Where is everyone else going to find room for them in their collection?

[VERT]

I will put them with the Classics. But since MP Sideswipe is also about the same size I might move them later on to MP. Guess they fit with both :D

[M-bot]

Keen to hear reviews.

+1. Anyone got theirs yet? I was going to wait and order mine after I heard some reviews (mainly to see if the finished product was as polished as the prototype pictures, or if there's any QC issues), but ended up ordering via RK about a week ago. What should I be expecting when I get mine?

[Lord_Zed]

Don't know yet, free shipping does not mean fast shipping alas.

[Ultra Mackness]

Although shipping was free, it seems to be trackable. I followed the link in my account on igear and it took me to the Hong Kong postal website. Apparently my package left HK last Friday. I'm hopeful these guys will be here this week. Also online stores such as BBTS and TFSource are listing these as in stock so Im assuming that they have theirs already. Can't be too far off!

[SkyWarp91]

I got mine, just haven't opened them yet. Will get back to you.

- Woops, I thought I had them but no, they're in my pile of loot :rolleyes:

[VERT]

Got mine today. The post must have sent them to the wrong address. Someone left them at my door today. Mail on a sat ha ha. :-D they are very good figures. Worth the wait and the cost.

Now I have them im expecting Takara to announce MP Ironhide and Ratchet any time soon. :-/
http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff473/VERTYSNAP/IronhideRatchet.jpg

[Ultra Mackness]

Now that I'm over the initial excitement I'm picking up some of the extra details. One thing I wasn't expecting was the character bio on the boxes-they're really very creative. There are implied histories where shockwave has two eyes and two hands before an accident and that shockwave and Ratchet were colleagues in Science. Both bios involve a catastrophic accident that leaves both ironhide and ratchet deformed, with "stubby arms, head in their chest and no ability to rotate their legs", and "26 cycles later" - pretty obvious allusions to the g1 toys. There is also an explanation of the origins of kibble!

The only thing that has gone wrong for me so far is that one of not-Ratchets head lights detatched. It wasn't damaged, but looks like it missed out on a dab of glue during construction. Aside from that, they are fantastic. I think the only difference between these and an MP (from Takara) would be that the plastic is not quite as glossy. By comparison, I think it is similar quality as hasbros 20th anniversary dvd MP Optimus. I have MP sideswipe on preorder and will be curious to compare the three when he arrives.

I'm hoping that hasbro/taktom don't announce they are doing MPs of these guys yet, but if they do, I reckon they'd be hard pressed to do a much better job, particularly given the accessories that came with them. These have been well worth the money, and well worth the wait to get them right.

[kup]

From pics at TFW, these guys seem to be Binaltech/Alternator size which is pretty good and does get them closer to Masterpiece than Classics.

[VERT]

I just read the Bio's on the boxes. Hahahahaha They are a fun read. :D
Yeah Kup, I was going to put them with Classics. But now with Sideswipe and Red on the way they might go better with the MP Bots. They do look great with MP Prime.

[SuspectimusPrime]

I was hoping that these guys would be Classics Voyager scale at most to supplement Ratchet, who still manages to elude me. I did manage to pick up Classics Ironhide for a relatively good $40, but the $70-100 asking price for Classics/Henkei Ratchet is too close to 3P prices without all the extra goodies and detailing... :(

[Sutton]

I was hoping that these guys would be Classics Voyager scale at most to supplement Ratchet, who still manages to elude me. I did manage to pick up Classics Ironhide for a relatively good $40, but the $70-100 asking price for Classics/Henkei Ratchet is too close to 3P prices without all the extra goodies and detailing... :(

They are Voyager scale, the big problem is that Classics Prime is a very small Voyager, so they don't scale well with him. Faith Leader is too big and MP10 is as well. However, 'Toyworld' (the Hegemon guys) have hinted at doing a version of the IDW Prime in the same scale as Megs, so that might make these guys fit better.

But I agree, I'd like to have been able to see these guys fit in with classics better.

[Lord_Zed]

My two cents on Ironhide (only got one to asses).

Decent quality plastic, not as nice as Giant, but to my touch feels more solid than Hegemon.

The van mode is awesome alt mode, spot on to G1, rubber tyres, chrome, small details like door mirrors what more could you want?

Transformation is fun, the leg panels are quite interesting, the way the panels on his legs line up is very clever. Getting the alignment right when returning him to van mode can be a little tricky, but overall It's no harder than similar Hasbro toy.

Robot mode is good to, a very solid robot, Ironhide is voyager size but quite a broad fellow he looks like a bruiser. Articulation is good, all the joints you would expect are here, his knees are a little restricted but I can accept this as a result of the clever transformation.

Accessories are plentiful though admittedly not as much fun as say perfect Effect, or Fans Projects. I kind of wish Ironhide's movie guns could have combined into a jet pack or his Sniper rifle come apart, or something, but this is just me inferring the strength of other 3rd party companies on Igear. I really like that they included weapons based on his G1 toy. The alternate heads on the other hand are an awesome idea, and I'd like to see them become a regular 3rd party feature, having a choice of G1 or IDW Ironhide is icing on the cake in my mind.

The only minor gripe I have with the toy is that I wish he had a few more paint aps in robot mode. Ironhide has a heap of sculpted detail on his bot mode, but a lot of it is black and hard to see a few more paint aps would be nice. Paint ap for paint ap he has about as many Hegemon, however most are for his vehicle mode.

So all in all an other solid 3rd party toy, Igear have proven to me when they stop kitbashing Hasbro's molds into endless seekers (or mini MP's) that that they do have the know how to stand with the other emerging 3rd parties.



They seem to fit in fine with Classics to me, though it varies from character to chraracter, Classics Prime looks a bot weedy next to Ironhide, however 3rd party classic type figures like Hegemon and the Giant Constructions look great together.

For once I am hoping that Retrolabels will make a sticker pack with a tiny Autobot symbol for the chest, and a com screen sticker for the arm.


They are Voyager scale, the big problem is that Classics Prime is a very small Voyager, so they don't scale well with him. Faith Leader is too big and MP10 is as well. However, 'Toyworld' (the Hegemon guys) have hinted at doing a version of the IDW Prime in the same scale as Megs, so that might make these guys fit better.

But I agree, I'd like to have been able to see these guys fit in with classics better.

I reckon the Vanbots look great next to Hegemon, I think they work well with classics, though they are more broad than most. I guess we'll see when Sideswipe comes out.

@Vert: How did you mange to get the side panels tucked away for your photo? I have tried but it feels like the hinge on the back will break if I push it far enough to push the panels in, any tips on this oddly undocumented feature?

[Ultra Mackness]

Some size comparison shots. Like I've said, I'm not great at this, and only have a crappy phone camera, but here goes:

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/eaglenest/IMAG0261.jpg

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/eaglenest/IMAG0262.jpg

http://i781.photobucket.com/albums/yy96/eaglenest/IMAG0263.jpg

[VERT]

I just get them to swing in. Its a tight fit and all but it wont hurt the figure. You can also find a fix for this on you tube.

[theheretic]

So what does everyone think of the scale of these guys? Looking at MP-10 and what we've seen of MP-12/14 do PP05 not-Ratchet and not-Ironhide fit in? I've been on the fence leaning towards buying them but it realls depends on if they will fit with something... Been looking at G1 cartoon pics of sideswipe and red alert and honestly I think the scale with the new moulds coming out is pretty close, only just slightly small but I can understand that they did this to keep the alt modes closer in scale to each other. But what about these iGear toys? I haven't been able to find a G1 cartoon picture of Ironhide or ratchet standing next to Optimus. Does anyone have one? Otherwise I'll get the DVDs out and start watching.

[Lord_Zed]

Scale as always depends on how important it is to you and how you perceive it given they constantly changed size in booth the toon and comic.

PP0SW is voyager size, and fairly broad so he scales well with toys like Generations Inferno, Grapple and Bumblebee. On the other hand he looks a bit large next to the Classics Seekers.

I don't have MP 10 so I can't say how well he will fit in, he should look ok though.

[theheretic]

>8 snip 8<

Thanks for the advice. All these 3rd party items I want are sending me broke. LOL.

[ispayks]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8445/7943951796_db8799d783_b.jpg

[Ultra Mackness]

Great photo ispayks - love Ironhide's gattling cannons!!

[The Scream Man]

I just got my Ratchet, and while i like him as much as Iron Hide, I dont think they nailed the IDW head quite as much as they did with Ironhide. Its GOOD, just not quite as good.

[Lord_Zed]

I thought that head was just generic older Ratchet, rather than a specific IDW head.

[The Scream Man]

The Ironhide was IDW, i guess i just assumed it was the same.