Is the packaging worth enough for it to effect the value of your purchase? [Archive] - Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia (otca.com.au)

jena

31st July 2011, 08:46 AM

Maybe they don't want to encourage people to tear up packaging in-store so that they can get a discount on the product. And in their mind, toys are like any other product they stock, like kitchen appliances, clothes, stationary, etc - as long as the product inside is undamaged, the packaging is just there to ship it in.... and therefore would only discount if the product itself is damaged or missing something (like they do at Kmart with their clearance basket at the back of the store). Only collectors like ourselves value the packaging as much as the product (well, a few of us do).

I've marked down items at work (Kmart) when the packaging has been really badly damaged or missing altogether. In most cases we usually just patch it up as best we can. Lots of sticky tape, hah!

bowspearer

31st July 2011, 09:12 AM

Maybe they don't want to encourage people to tear up packaging in-store so that they can get a discount on the product.

Which is going off the theory that Hasbro would do a credit claim on it, which I highly doubt.

And in their mind, toys are like any other product they stock, like kitchen appliances, clothes, stationary, etc - as long as the product inside is undamaged, the packaging is just there to ship it in.... and therefore would only discount if the product itself is damaged or missing something (like they do at Kmart with their clearance basket at the back of the store). Only collectors like ourselves value the packaging as much as the product (well, a few of us do).

Which only proves my point about how out of touch Australian toy retailers are and how their sales are plummetting as a result. Furthermore this is the same retailer who got in the Takara version of MP-02 and MP-04 so clearly Target head office is not only aware of collectors but has also marketted to them in the past- like when they picked up most of the US store exclusives between 2001-2006 for RiD-Cybertron. Clearly somewhere between Head Office and the stores, Target have some serious communications problems.

TF76

31st July 2011, 02:22 PM

Lint

31st July 2011, 03:04 PM

Clearly somewhere between Head Office and the stores, Target have some serious communications problems.

You can replace "Target" with the name of most large organisations :p

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet but I saw on TV that the toy sale has been extended till the 10th of August.

They didn't say anything about further reductions and I'm not terribly excited because there were not many pickings to begin with imo.

Dkaris

31st July 2011, 06:03 PM

i love the emo in these retailer threads. Its pretty simple, if a store wont discount items to as low as you want because of damaged packaging etc then dont go there. its pretty simple. if your a collector chances are you've bought it online or you'd wait until you find one in another store in better condition. No amount of baaawing on an internet forum is going to change the way retailers do business or how much they mark things down for you.

tl dr: bawwing on the internet doesnt solve your problems.

bowspearer

31st July 2011, 08:27 PM

Most toy packaging would just be ripped up and thrown away so I can't see why it SHOULD be reduced.

If you were a collector really worried about the packaging condition you probably wouldn't buy it because it wouldn't be at the standard for your collection.

If the packaging condition didn't matter and all you wanted was the toy, then why does it matter?

You've made the same mistake here most toy retailers do at the store level. The fact is that collectors do exist and this is the store chain which short of TRU, has had the most store exclusives. Not only are their head office aware of collectors but they've marketted to them. As such it is entirely reasonable for Target to be aware of the basic fact in collecting that packaged toys cost more than loose toys. If I'm not about to pay the same price for a figure that's effectively loose as I would for a sealed figure, then why should I do so in a store?

Forgetting about collectors for a minute though, what about parents? How many parents are going to be buying toys as presents for kids and how many of them are going to pay $25 for a toy that has it's packaging ripped to shreds when they can walk a few hundred metres down to Kmart and pay that as normal price for a deluxe? That's the first point to this.

Secondly, Target are in the middle of a Toy sale which they're now extending. The whole reason this is happening is because Australian retailers are suffering badly from people voting with their feet and buying online and internationally. So the idea of them wanting business right now is a pretty reasonable one.

Im confused and what does this have to do with the toysale?

You mean besides the fact that this happened at Target and during the toy sale, or the fact that toy sales are being extended because of how poorly retailers are doing compared to online international toy shopping atm? Furthermore, how is this any less relevant than criticisms of Target's refusal to price match with BigW during the toy sales?

TF76

31st July 2011, 10:00 PM

It wasn't a toy sale item or anything to do with toy sale, just you having a rant about not getting a toy for the price you believe your entitled to, based only on your own opinion.

The event just happens to be while toy sale is on makes no difference targets policy's are targets policy's everyday, if they are working within those policies I honestly don't see the problem.

I'm interested in info on the sale updates etc... Not the same rants over and over.

I don't agree with your opinion and it is just that, your opinion.

Mr Ed

31st July 2011, 10:04 PM

bowspearer

31st July 2011, 10:13 PM

This is a very pleasant forum and people help each other with sightings, share concerns and rants. Whilst this topic has gone off forum, it's not the end of the world. Just ignore them and move on man!!!!

You know the ironic bit. When I posted that it was nothing more than light hearted anecdote which made me laugh with how ironic it was in light of the current retail sales crisis here and this happening in the middle of a toy sale.

It seems I didn't know half the irony of since posting it earned me an ambush and personal attacks where I'm supposedly 'emo' and 'bawwing on the internet'....

Mr Ed

31st July 2011, 10:22 PM

You know the ironic bit. When I posted that it was nothing more than light hearted anecdote which made me laugh with how ironic it was in light of the current retail sales crisis here and this happening in the middle of a toy sale.

It seems I didn't know half the irony of since posting it earned me an ambush and personal attacks where I'm supposedly 'emo' and 'bawwing on the internet'....

It's ok. Just ignore it and move on. We're not fighting for sheep stations here ;)

griffin

2nd August 2011, 01:12 PM

Moved discussion of packaging 'value' here, as it could be interesting to see who thinks toy packaging, at least Hasbro packaging, is worth paying for... especially if you found a mint toy in damaged packaging.

And please, no insulting the opinions of others, as everyone needs somewhere to have a whinge if it doesn't target others or isn't too aggressive. This is a toy collector website - where else would toy collectors be able to have a rant to an applicable audience?

Also, unless we have a store's representative to officially outline their policies (selling undamaged product in damaged packaging), or their purchasing objectives (of things that could be collector-oriented), we can only guess at them. So no need to get too worked up over someone else's opinions or guesses. For all we know, Hasbro told Target that they had a mystery store exclusive for $50 that they could sell at $200... which just made them look like they were targeting the collector market, but since both would be making money neither cared what the item was.
(but that's just another guess, as I don't think retailers in this country and this current economic climate would care what they sell, as long as they make sales/profit)

As for the selling of undamaged toys in damaged packaging - most products in a store that are on the shelves in an outer carton/packaging aren't making a sale based on the packaging. The point of toys (and this is why retailers, including TRU don't get this uniquely different product department) is to make the sale through visual means, to kids (and parents for their kids). Unlike all other departments in the stores, toys are not an overly practical product that just needs packaging to get it safely from the store to the home... it needs the packaging to convince the consumer to grab it off the shelf first.
So part of the product is the way it is packaged, hence the frequent use of big open plastic bubbles, colourful packaging and character art and/or bios. A kid needs to be visually captivated and sold on the product before they even walk out of the toy section of the store - that's why business marketing of toys has to take on a whole different perspective and direction to any other product in a department store. A lot of the times, toys will be an impulsive purchase after the consumer has arrived at the store. They may have gone there initially because of a movie, TV show or advertisement/catalogue, but unless there is a specific sale on, it will come down to price and visual appeal of the complete package (product and packaging).
That differing marketing strategy is something department stores and even dedicated toy stores don't get when they stock a toy that is in damaged packaging. Because even if it doesn't get kept by the final recipient of the toy inside, it will be judged as part of the purchase to begin with.
And none of that even looks at the Collectors side of things either. We may be a small "insignificant" portion of the market, but this issue isn't something exclusively confined to collectors. Humans in general can be a picky lot - dismissing an item just because it has the most insignificant defect... If toys were packaged in plain looking boxes with just the name on the outside, then it wouldn't matter how damaged it was if the contents were still mint.
Retailers have need to take on that different strategy with their Toy Departments, realising that a portion of the value is in the 'point of sale' display of the toy (it's packaging).
(and if they are worried that people might damage the packaging to get a discount, that's what the security cameras are supposed to catch... or just discount the item and return it to the shelf at a random time later to discourage someone from thinking they could damage it and take it to the register to get the discount right there and then)

liegeprime

2nd August 2011, 01:21 PM

For me, since I dont really keep packaging, nope not at all. As long as the toy inside is of good quality, complete and undamaged, I certainly wouldn't mind puchasing it. Also doesn't devalues the toy IMO.

Also, with some toys found wanting in the QC dept. Being well packaged but still a defective toy kinda makes the packaging and the toy more useless in my view. It's like adding insult to injury..... in a twisted kinda way. That then devalue a toy for me. It's okay to go for eye-catching, good for display packaging, but, at times Hasbro or any toy company uses this as too much of an excuse to jack prices up while no real improvement on the toy itself.

Decepticon

2nd August 2011, 01:25 PM

I always look for pristine packaging on ANYTHING I buy. From food to magazines. I have bought sooo many TF deluxes and would always choose the best packaging of the same toy even if Im gonna rip it open when I get home. I just want value for money!
Target prob would mark that BB down eventually, but until they are ready. I used to work for Coles and forever had customers coming up to me requesting something damaged to be marked down. I used to tell em to basiclly get @#$@.

Gutsman Heavy

2nd August 2011, 01:39 PM

It don't bother me much, I chuck the packaging out. I don't think toys should be massively reduced due to torn packaging, way too exploitable. It'd be like that scene in Big Daddy when they dent the cans to make them cheaper.

UltraMarginal

2nd August 2011, 03:00 PM

+1 to what Griffin said. rather insightful, even if the packaging doesn't really effect the toy, your still going to be tempted by the undamaged box next to the damaged box as a purchaser.

Eventually an item like that will get marked down due to being constantly overlooked, and needing to be moved, but until there is damage to the actual toy/product I think the store is justified in not marking it down.

I also think rather than policy, this type of decision is often up to the individual. how good a day they are having and if their store gets "damaged" packaging often.

I got a few extra dollars off a ROTF leader Megs because one of the leg panels was loose in the box and I politely asked for the discount. luckily I was able to re-assemble. but that was a gamble I took.

Which only proves my point about how out of touch Australian toy retailers are and how their sales are plummetting as a result. Furthermore this is the same retailer who got in the Takara version of MP-02 and MP-04 so clearly Target head office is not only aware of collectors but has also marketted to them in the past- like when they picked up most of the US store exclusives between 2001-2006 for RiD-Cybertron. Clearly somewhere between Head Office and the stores, Target have some serious communications problems.

I always attributed this to there being a collectors gaurdian angel living somewhere in the Target Procurements department. not really related to any particular line of communication. Much like the Takara Jetwing prime at the moment, though that is in a lot of stores so, maybe that's a Hasbro Australia Angel.

gdmetro

2nd August 2011, 03:04 PM

I always look for pristine packaging on ANYTHING I buy. From food to magazines. I have bought sooo many TF deluxes and would always choose the best packaging of the same toy even if Im gonna rip it open when I get home.

Same. From my own POV, I generally don't buy something that has damaged packaging on normal goods, let alone TFs... but there are always exceptions- so for me, it will depend on what the particular item is, how much I want it and the price being paid.

For TFs, even if I am opening it, I will most likely always scrutinize and not buy one with a damaged box if it can be avoided. If its a really scarce figure I need, but with a damaged box, Id probably still get it (This is mostly for current Hasbro mainline releases).

As for the OP: One has to remember, retailers are running a business on a large scale - so they probably will have many different factors (from a financial/business angle) than what we as a consumer or as collectors would consider.

My guess is they are probably so large and inflexible as to not care enough to give a discount like that. (Yes, I know, even in light of the drop in retail purchasing).

JuzMel

2nd August 2011, 04:04 PM

Funnily enough, even though I'm an MISB Collector (not really by choice though), when I look for a TF, I actually check out the paint job, closeness of joining parts of the vehicle, quality etc before I even bother about the packaging. I think there was once I only realised that one of my packaging was dented when I got home. :o

I guess like what liege says, if the packaging is perfect, yet the toy inside has sh-t paint jobs / quality, then it kinda defeats the purpose of why we get the TF in the first place. So in my view, it's more about the quality of the figure itself rather than the box packaging.

But I guess it's also depends on how badly damaged the packaging is. If the damage is enough to indicate that there might be stolen parts from it, then I think the store should give a discount. If it's only exterior bending / torn cardboard and the box is still sealed, then I guess it's really up to the store's discrepancy on whether or not they want to give the discount.

SkyWarp91

2nd August 2011, 04:40 PM

tl dr: bawwing on the internet doesnt solve your problems.

I have to disagree with this. It doesn't necessarily solve your problems but is a good way to express/vent your thoughts. I love the fact we have a 'I need to Vent' thread, venting there often calms me down and stops me before I go out and do something vengeful.

Maybe they don't want to encourage people to tear up packaging in-store so that they can get a discount on the product. And in their mind, toys are like any other product they stock, like kitchen appliances, clothes, stationary, etc - as long as the product inside is undamaged, the packaging is just there to ship it in.... and therefore would only discount if the product itself is damaged or missing something (like they do at Kmart with their clearance basket at the back of the store). Only collectors like ourselves value the packaging as much as the product (well, a few of us do).

I agree with Griffin here, he basically sums it up pretty well. Stores are reluctant to sell their products at cheaper prices because of that exploitation of damaging the packaging. I work in shelf-stocking and I was stocking this tray of tinned food but all tins had water damage and rust was evident on the outside. I told the manager and because it was a whole tray of cans, he couldn't deal with losing money so he told me to restock it. Yes, I also don't know why he is a manager in the first place.

griffin

2nd August 2011, 06:55 PM

I have to disagree with this. It doesn't necessarily solve your problems but is a good way to express/vent your thoughts. I love the fact we have a 'I need to Vent' thread, venting there often calms me down and stops me before I go out and do something vengeful.

That's why it (and other related topics) is there, because we are more than just a news site that random people post comments to... we have become a community of people who listen to other members and are willing to help out whenever we can.

TF76

2nd August 2011, 07:45 PM

I feel this thread got a little nasty or at least heated begor it was moved and I think most of it was my fault. I meant no hard felling and to make any of my comments seem like personal attacks.

Prowl

2nd August 2011, 08:33 PM

I don't really care for packaging overall. It does not affect my decision to buy a item as I will usually bin it & keep the cardback. That said I will always go for a minty one if I can on principal.

Defcon

2nd August 2011, 09:02 PM

Looking at the original comments regarding purchasing items in damaged packaging, I'd say its fair for retailers to refuse discounts because of damaged packaging. Why because it will start a bad trend, because people who recieve discounts for damaged packaging will likely try again.

If its a major damage to the packaging it should be removed from display for repair, if thats not possible it should not be returned to the shelf. It can be wasted off as damaged stock or discounted and placed with other damaged discounted items in a separate location.

Customer service is very important, firstly the customer should be thanked for bringing a damaged item to someone's attention. The problem should be acknowledged! a WFC Bumblebee which is an old item and with damaged packaging I'd be happy to get something for it and just give the customer a discount. Or just politely refuse to sell the item and say unfortunately it is unfit for sale ;)

Dkaris

3rd August 2011, 04:28 AM

I want to apologize to you guys for snapping. I've since calmed down and realize I shouldn't have posted to begin with because I wasn't in a good mood (work related, go figure.) So I'm sorry for offending or insulting anyone with my previous post.

UltraMarginal

3rd August 2011, 12:40 PM

Another point that I thought of is , when I'm looking at a shelf full of figures, I always go for the one with the best paint apps, less mold flashing and best transformed appearance. the toy is my first priority but in this case, generally the packaging will all be in pretty good nick. if a paper hook is damaged, I'm not really worried.

I am only really worried about packaging when it is so damaged that the integrity of the figure coiuld be compromised.

still, if there are two figures that appear to be of the same quality paint wise, i will always go for the one with the shinier packaging.

My previous comment still holds for the retailers though and I think Defcons customer service comment is also very relevant.

kristofferrer

3rd August 2011, 01:05 PM

Got one which should make people shake their heads and laugh. Went into my girlfriend's local Target store last night when I found a WFC Bumblebee, only the top left quarter of the card had been ripped off it and the card was half ripped off the blister. I went to the service desk and asked how much they'd do it for. I was told $25. And Aussie retailers wonder why sales are down.

I found a RTS Wheeljack missing the two spanners/exhaust in my Gf's local Kmart and it was still selling for the full price. So naturally i sad "nah" i wont get him.

I prioritize the quality of the figure over its packaging but only if there's another figure to compare it with. I do like 'MISB n all', but if i see a complete MISB figure i'm after with poor packaging (and it's the only one the store has in stock) ... meh i'd get it for the price they were selling it for

(** looks at collection table **) "isn't that right Classics Ironhide?":D

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 02:25 AM

I think it really does depend. I think the problem is that the toy industry has a similar issue with collectors that the whole retail industry has with online shopping.

I remember a few years back, the owner of a certain online TF store who I knew through another local TF forum, told me in confidence that reps weren't that fond of fans, to put it nicely.

Maybe that situation has changed since then, I don't know, but it does highlight a problem.

At the retail level, and possibly even the distributor level (ie Hasbro Aust as opposed to Hasbro USA), the industry seems to be still stuck in the 1980s and 1970s in terms of the retail sales end of the business.

Back then of course, toy collecting, with the exception of MAYBE Star Wars by actual collectors, was a rarity, if non-existent.

These days though, it's all over the place. Some people will still open them up, but some people will still keep things in packaging, and the more time goes on with the retro fad amongst gen-xers, the more it will become a factor, especially when you get toylines that have run for close to 30+ years (in 3 years that's transformers, next year it's GIJOE, to name 2 examples) where kids get parents back into some lines.

Even if the TF collector market share is only 20% (which was a figure I recall hearing a few years back), that's still 1/5 of your business.

Maybe in the past, retailers could have ignored the collectors market in the toy industry, just like they could have ignored online shopping.

Yet with the retail market as it stand and if things are as dire as the likes of Gerry Harvey are claiming, then surely the market needs to maximise all its profits.

In the case of collectors, this means realising that retailers aren't just selling a toy but a choice as to how that toy is displayed- will the collector display it loose or will they display it sealed. As such a figure that cannot be displayed sealed is not going to have the same value as something which can be displayed sealed.

Obviously minor to moderate shelf wear, as in the typical sort of wear you see on packaging, is what could be classed as reasonable condition.

However the moment you go beyond that, there's enough of a difference to cause a discernable difference in value- especially if it's at the point where the toy has actually been partially opened already.

How much of a difference that warrants, be it $2 or $5 in the case of deluxes for example, is for the retailer to decide (incidentally it was the fact that the rrp was offered in that case which was what seemed so laughable).

However there needs to be some kind of system in place, even if it's a decision that when a package is that damaged, that the item is removed from sale.

However a lack of some kind of approach to this, and continuing to price gouge on RRPs across the board, effectively ignoring the collector's market, is only going to continue to hurt the retail sector through a significant number of lost customers- especially when online shopping offers US prices, factors in packaging depending on where you shop, and even makes shipping costs negligible in large enough bulk buys.

I want to apologize to you guys for snapping. I've since calmed down and realize I shouldn't have posted to begin with because I wasn't in a good mood (work related, go figure.) So I'm sorry for offending or insulting anyone with my previous post.

Apology accepted. We've all had off days.

I am only really worried about packaging when it is so damaged that the integrity of the figure coiuld be compromised.

Although even when it's not, there's a difference between a torn hook and a card that has been half ripped off the bubble (it's a wonder that the top paper layer of carboard hadn't ripped off) and a quarter of the card being ripped off it to look at the example which prompted my initial post.

That's where there really needs to be some kind of determination in the industry as to what constitutes reasonable shelf wear.

Paulbot

8th August 2011, 08:21 AM

I doubt in this country the TF collector market is 1/5th. In the US maybe...

A dedicated toy store like TRU might get items for collectors and charge premiums for them, but Big W, Kmart, Target would only care about the mums and dads buying toys for kids and aren't going to be in the business of grading packaging. They do move damaged floor stock away eventually anyway to those clearance trolleys.

If you want premium packaging shop around and pay more. It's not that hard?

It amuses me to think of future Big W catalogue saying "Transformers DOTM Deluxes. C10 packaging $30 also available in C4 packaging for $10"

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 03:31 PM

I doubt in this country the TF collector market is 1/5th. In the US maybe...

Actually I'm prety sure that figure was globally. Besides not all collectors are going to be online (I suspect you're trying to use online community numbers as a guide here). In fact I'd be surprised if even the majority of them are membrs of online communities given Hasbro's figures a few years back and the online numbers you see in even major tf forums. Either way it's something which Hasbro and retailers should be interested in finding out if things are as dire as the retail sector keeps claiming.

A dedicated toy store like TRU might get items for collectors and charge premiums for them, but Big W, Kmart, Target would only care about the mums and dads buying toys for kids

Your entire point here is ironically moot in light of the retailer originally being talked about here.

Off the top of my head, with Target:

RiD Dreadwind
RiD Build Team
RiD Urban Camo Ruination
Masterpiece Ultra Magnus
Masterpiece Prime w/- Trailer
Energon Demolishor
Energon Cyclonus
Cybertron Jungle Planet Optimus Prime
Cybertron Jungle Planet Megatron

Can't remember if these were actual exclusives, but I suspect you can add the RiD Dinobots and Energon Dinobots to that list as well.

With K-Mart:
SE Transformers Classics

With Big-W (not TF related):
Force FX Lightsabers

That's just the exclusives and not factoring in that all these stores carried the Alternators line which was marketted primarily at collectors.

Clearly these stores are aware enough of collectors to market to them in their business model.

Therefore, they can't comlain about the "retail slump" when they're not exploring every single avenue and especially when the avenue in question is one they have marketted to in the past.

and aren't going to be in the business of grading packaging.

Which wasn't what was being said at all. There is a general range of wear which you'd typically expect from toys sitting on a shelf, ranging from bent cards to minor tears at the extreme end, like ripped peg hooks. At some point, set a line and stick to it in a policy where when it crosses that line, it's either removed from sale or discounted. It's not that hard.

They do move damaged floor stock away eventually anyway to those clearance trolleys.

Clearly, not everyone does though. Bear in mind that what started this thread was a toy with thoroughly trashed packaging and was almost a year old.

If you want premium packaging shop around and pay more. It's not that hard?

Or alternately, toy buyers, store managers and everyone in the chain of command between them could realise that they are selling toys which are marketed by the toy makers themselves to both kids (which includes mums and dads) and collectors and so they're automaticlly marketting to them anyway. It's not that hard.

It amuses me to think of future Big W catalogue saying "Transformers DOTM Deluxes. C10 packaging $30 also available in C4 packaging for $10"

Again, noone is talking about anything to this extent.

Paulbot

8th August 2011, 03:56 PM

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 04:41 PM

I would think the prime motivation for stocking exclusives is not aiming at the collector market, but rather to give the retailer a point of difference in their catalogues/stores from their competitors that otherwise have the exact same stock (and in Target's case their competitors have the exact same stock at cheaper prices).

And yet store exclusives are collector based to begin with as kids aren't going to worry about variants to as large a degree, or if they are in rare cases, aren't going to generally be financial enough to support that degree of completism.

Honestly, I have to say that the whole retailer apologist argument with the toy industry in general is as ridiculous as saying that car dealers shouldn't have to expect to cater to car enthusiasts in any way shape or form because the vast bulk of car buyers are going to be families seeking sedans. Sure some enthusiasts are going to go straight for luxury cars, but for example, Holden enthusiasts are still going to go for a Commodore, just as Ford enthusiasts are still going to go for a Falcon.

Paulbot

8th August 2011, 05:22 PM

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 06:04 PM

So in short, the stores are showing toy collectors contempt by not discounting every item that's in damaged packaging and we should be angry at them and ignore that they are helping collectors by bringing in US (and Japanese) store exclusives otherwise unavailable here?

Ok your uncalled for snarkiness aside (seriously, anyone would think you were the toy buyer or CEO for Westfarmers or Woolworths with how you're responding here), what I'm saying is that the global toy market has changed.

With eBay, the shift in the toy market, the shift in western culture where toy collecting is far more acceptable, and becming more and more prevalent amongst adults (even with a decline in it by kids as they move more and more over to video games at younger and younger ages with each passing year), the game has changed.

Gone are the days when retailers could bank on the kids being practically their main income for toys and ignorant parents being the main buyers.

These days collectors will buy elsewhere. Parents will buy on eBay. Online stores will charge US prices depending on their locations (which show up Australian RRPs as the total rip-offs they are).

What's more if a sealed toy is online on eBay or an online store and the packaging is shot to hell, they'll sell it for less.

This is what bricks and mortar retail are complaining about, because they refuse to face the fact that with Hasbro toys to quote just one example, they've been completely ripping off their customers- either by putting outrageous markups on figures or in the case of Hasbro Australia being the party ripping people off, failing to apply sufficient pressure on Hasbro Australia to lower their invoice costs back to what they should be (and yes, when you have enough buying power, it IS that simple).

You talk about store exclusives, but often most regular waves don't even hit here, or of late you get situations like deluxe movie Jazz in G1 colours going for $50 at TRU, when you can source them so much cheaper elsewhere. Furthermore, these days it's a global market and even store exclusives are available here thanks to online stores and sellers.

It's a similar deal with packaging. The collector's market does exist and so that needs to be factored into a business plan. There's a certain point where short of going case fresh, something can be displayed on card or in box and a point where a box looks like it's been a makeshift soccer ball. Once you cross that line, you reach a point where a the packaging's value does become an issue.

At that point the retailer is affected by how things work in a global market. Noone is going to charge on eBay for example (and these days there are many online toy stores on eBay for example), what they do for a toy with good condition packaging, what they would for a toy whose packaging has been destroyed. Whether the retailer decides to have a discount policy, or to remove it from sale as a deterrent against customers intentionally damaging packaging themselves, there needs to be some kind of policy there in place.

People could argue that that online toy stores, or specialty toy stores aren't a dept store's competition, but they'd be dead wrong. They're as much their competition as say, Bing Lee or Good Guys are when it comes to TVs or JB-Hifi are when it comes to DVDs and CDs.

This issue is just another component of the entire online vs retail argument that's surrounding the "retail slump" crisis going on atm.

UltraMarginal

8th August 2011, 06:20 PM

It amuses me to think of future Big W catalogue saying "Transformers DOTM Deluxes. C10 packaging $30 also available in C4 packaging for $10"

That amuses me too.

this whole discussion is quite interesting, and looking back through the posts, there are clearly a lot of differiing opinions, but I'm getting the feeling that at the time of sale, packaging can effect a purchasiing decision almost as much as whats on the inside of the box, it appears to be a mixed up combo of emotion and logic.

clear as mud:D

How much would someone pay for this one:

http://i1123.photobucket.com/albums/l541/UltraMarginal/UltraMarginals%20phone%20pics/2011-08-07110002.jpg

Paulbot

8th August 2011, 06:28 PM

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 06:39 PM

You want stores to alter their prices per item based on the item condition like an online seller can? That sounds like a dedicated toy collector focused store not the 15 year old sales clerks at the local discount department store. Something like those high end collectable stores? Or maybe something like HobbyCo (from what I've seen of it)? Maybe it will happen someday. And you'll pay a premium for the service or the physical store will go out of business. But for now if you are trying to buy kids toys in a store that is visited by kids, the items will be treated like a soccer ball by those kids.

Not really. What I want is for retailers to sit down, recognise at what point you go from reasonable shelf wear to actual damage, and have some kind of a policy accordingly, be it discounting or removal from sale when someone brings it up to the counter. Some cases might be borderline sure, but in cases like the one I experienced, it's pretty black and white.

Furthermore, that sort of thing is always going to require managerial approval and will never be the job of a sales clerk.

However if these stores (as in bricks and mortar retailers) want to ignore the nature of the toy market as a whole, much like they've been accused of ignoring online shopping in general, then these same stores can't whinge about a slump in retail spending. If product A can be bought in several stores, then those stores are all each others' competition.

More to the point when a family is buying toys these days, it's becoming more the case that it's just as often for the parent as it is for the child.

I dont like that they are overpriced, especially after two months shopping in the US and Hong Kong, so I shop online, arrange group orders, or wait for local sales. Overpriced TRU exclusives annoy me, underpriced Kmart exclusives delight me (even though the toys look ugly), but I don't care if the packaging is a damaged if the toy is okay and the price is alright.

Depends on what you want the toy for. The moment you're considering keeping it MISB or MOSC, then the packaging is an issue, which again is the nature of the modern toy market.

Again, it all comes down to the failure of retailers to recognise the nature of the modern marketplace and adapt accordingly.

griffin

8th August 2011, 07:07 PM

Based on what I've been told, stores here don't approach hasbro for exclusives. Hasbro has to 'beg' the stores to take on exclusives in this country, and its only when the brand is doing well (at its most profitable to stores) that stores take on exclusives.
US stores are the ones who solicit exclusives to get kids and collectors into their store over their rival's.
The stores here though, have no interest in accommodating or targeting collectors (TRU would be an exception - not for getting the product, but in the promoting of it by being the only store to approach us to advertise TF toys). Any other store that had the slightest interest in collectors in this country, would promote that intention and products to the collector communities (like here and other AUS fansites, and at the collector fairs).

gdmetro

8th August 2011, 07:09 PM

On the topic of paulbot/bowspearer's discussion- I find it is highly interesting, but on the whole it does go back to the root of the problem, and that is the attitude/direction of the retailers.

The current retailers are whinging because they failed to anticipate and change in the face of online buying and for the longest time, took advantage of the lack of options and information and ignorance that the public had with regards to retail goods. Now that internet and online buying has had time to develop and be adopted by more of the general population, the retailers have to change their overall retail model, attitude and structure- to adapt to the current climate. This is certainly not an easy task and will probably cost a lot of time, planning, research and over all expenditure, but needs to be done. I'm not entirely sure that the fault lies solely on retailers, but they are the ones that need to initiate the change. If they don't, they will die out and be replaced with more adequate players- assuming the current trend continues.

Once that change comes, then we will probably see a major change in how retail operates, and it would follow that the way toys are sold/marketed will also change (hopefully to the benefit for us, the collectors).

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 07:13 PM

I'm not entirely sure that the fault lies solely on retailers, but they are the ones that need to initiate the change.

Yes and no- retail buying groups have alot of clout. I used to work for Bing Lee (head of the NARTA group, the big electronics buying group in the country) and one day this customer came asking us to match a price at one of the majors that was lower than the invoice cost Bing Lee got it for and the rep was immediately called to give a "please explain" by my assistant manager.

Buying groups have a lot of power when it comes to retail and so they could easily force a change.... if they wanted to.

Based on what I've been told, stores here don't approach hasbro for exclusives. Hasbro has to 'beg' the stores to take on exclusives in this country, and its only when the brand is doing well (at its most profitable to stores) that stores take on exclusives.
US stores are the ones who solicit exclusives to get kids and collectors into their store over their rival's.
The stores here though, have no interest in accommodating or targeting collectors (TRU would be an exception - not for getting the product, but in the promoting of it by being the only store to approach us to advertise TF toys). Any other store that had the slightest interest in collectors in this country, would promote that intention and products to the collector communities (like here and other AUS fansites, and at the collector fairs).

Which really only highlights what I was saying about this fitting into the larger scheme of things. It just goes to show that Australian retailers really only have themselves (and really it comes down to their head offices and marketting depts within them) to blame for such lousy retail spending, due to missed opportunities.

Prowl

8th August 2011, 09:05 PM

one day this customer came asking us to match a price at one of the majors that was lower than the invoice cost Bing Lee got it for and the rep was immediately called to give a "please explain" by my assistant manager.

I would not expect the assistant manager to know any different. There is a huge difference between the "invoice cost" & the actual cost paid by stores like Bing Lee. Stores get to see a "invoice price" that is what the system price is & they make their mark up & any discounts on that.

The buying group themselves negotiate far higher discounts at a national strategic or global level. This is done to protect their bottom line & especially to minimise commissions paid to staff who are renumerated on GP $ figures.

That way staff can even "show you" their "cost" on the system & you can see they are making only 5% Gp on the item but that does not take into acccount the buffer margin that is put onto the items by exec level management & procurement teams who are renumerated & KPI'd on rebates & maximising sales margin for supply to channel partners.

Think of it like this

Buying Group A pay $1000 for X brand TV.
Buying Group A get a discount of 5% for every 100 units they take.
Buying Group A also get a settlement discount of 2% for 30 day terms
Buying Group A also have factored in a 3% rebate to be paid quarterly by brand X.

That means that the TV itself costs $900 after the rebates & discounts are factored in.

The now $900 item is resold to the store/franchisee for a price of $1300 with similar discount structures applied to the store in question.

This now $1300 item is listed on the shelves at $2400 with a RRP of $2600 offering a $200 saving when you walk in the store.

After some heavy negotiating the buyer pays $1600 making a huge $1000 saving off the RRP & is satisfied with their discount.

The store banks on selling 10 of these units that month so they get their rebate from HO so that $1300 TV costs them $1170.

Everyone wins in this situation as HO has protected their baseline margin, the store has achieved their rebate/strategy target & the consumer has received their inflated discount.

This is why when buying any major item you are best to walk in knowing what you want at the end of the month when staff are trying to meet their targets & will sell you anything they can to get that extra $100 GP & hit their number. The store will approve any discount as they are going to get their rebate & so on.

Ever wondered why a salesman will push you as hard as they can to take a particular model over another especially at end of month? So they hit that magic rebate number which is worth more to them than selling that other item for $100 more.

A harsh but accurate truth especially in the retail marketplace.

UltraMarginal

8th August 2011, 09:19 PM

Something that we don't have to deal with when purchasing online that all retailers have to deal with, is import duties, any shipment coming into the country that has a value over $1000 is subject to import duties, as well as broker charges, customs charges and all that adds up, sure there are economies of scale here too, but I have looked into it as a potential side income and decided that importing more than $1000 worth from the states or anywhere else, just isn't worth my time.

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far about retailer attitudes, and archaic practices, but import duties in australia are high to promote local primary industry over importing from other countries, the thing is, it just doesn't work for electrical items, toys and other goods with a similar manufacturing profile. there is a lot of cost there that is not in place in other countries.

I also feel though that Australian retail needs a shake up as people have been saying above.

Anyway, that's all a bit off topic, the picture I posted above was something I found at my local Kmart on the weekend, and I immediately thought of this discussion and thought I would share it.:cool:

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 09:35 PM

I would not expect the assistant manager to know any different. There is a huge difference between the "invoice cost" & the actual cost paid by stores like Bing Lee.

Not quite true. I'd been there for about 5 years on and off at that point (I later discovered that at one point I was being groomed for a AM position myself) and so I tended to hear a few things, including the difference between Bing Lee's "floor cost" and actual invoice cost (and no I'm not going to spill as matter of principle), and it did come down to a percentage markup on the invoice costs.

Things like rebates only tend to come into play during promotions and if there was older floor stock which needed to be cleared by slashing the cost (which meant a rebate to reduce the invoice cost).

So sometimes it can in fact be very straightfowrard with that sort of thing.

Something that we don't have to deal with when purchasing online that all retailers have to deal with, is import duties, any shipment coming into the country that has a value over $1000 is subject to import duties, as well as broker charges, customs charges and all that adds up, sure there are economies of scale here too, but I have looked into it as a potential side income and decided that importing more than $1000 worth from the states or anywhere else, just isn't worth my time.

I agree with a lot of what has been said so far about retailer attitudes, and archaic practices, but import duties in australia are high to promote local primary industry over importing from other countries, the thing is, it just doesn't work for electrical items, toys and other goods with a similar manufacturing profile. there is a lot of cost there that is not in place in other countries.

I also feel though that Australian retail needs a shake up as people have been saying above.

Anyway, that's all a bit off topic, the picture I posted above was something I found at my local Kmart on the weekend, and I immediately thought of this discussion and thought I would share it.:cool:

I agree there are certain duties and overheads that bricks and mortar retailers face and certainly online retailers shouldn't be expected to pretend they don't.

However, and it's a pretty big however, bricks and mortar retail prices in the states have no shifted to much of an extent (I'm not aware of any increases, but I could be wrong) since 1997.

I bring that up because back then our dollar was around $0.77USD and with the same overheads that they have now, basics retailed at $10, deluxes at $17, megas at $30 and ultras at $40.

Admittedly, the Asian Economic Crisis sent our dollar tumbling like a lead ballon and prices went up accordingly, which is perfectly reasonable.

However the dollar is now doing much better, in fact for at least the past few months has been greater than parity with the USD and for a year before that was at its worst, at 1997 exchange rates. Yet prices have yet to get anywhere close to where they should be even at 1997 exchange rate leveles, with the exception of toy sales.

Yes retailers are in a difficult spot, but at the same time, they deserve very little sympathy, if any, when they're happily going along with the blatant scalping that is going on somewhere along the supply chain between them and Hasbro Australia.

Prowl

8th August 2011, 09:52 PM

Not quite true. I'd been there for about 5 years on and off at that point (I later discovered that at one point I was being groomed for a AM position myself) and so I tended to hear a few things, including the difference between Bing Lee's "floor cost" and actual invoice cost (and no I'm not going to spill as matter of principle), and it did come down to a percentage markup on the invoice costs.

Things like rebates only tend to come into play during promotions and if there was older floor stock which needed to be cleared by slashing the cost (which meant a rebate to reduce the invoice cost).

So sometimes it can in fact be very straightfowrard with that sort of thing.

A fair enough point. I mostly deal with national contracts & buying arrangements so have not dealt with retail companies in many years.

What I was really getting at is the true cost is never the invoice cost when it comes to big retail chains as there are always buffers.

That said Bing Lee always dropped their pants for me when I asked them to. Then again I am a salesmans dream. I walk in knowing what I want & say model X, Y & Z give me your best price & if it is right I will walk out of here with one in five minutes.

bowspearer

8th August 2011, 11:15 PM

A fair enough point. I mostly deal with national contracts & buying arrangements so have not dealt with retail companies in many years.

What I was really getting at is the true cost is never the invoice cost when it comes to big retail chains as there are always buffers.

That said Bing Lee always dropped their pants for me when I asked them to. Then again I am a salesmans dream. I walk in knowing what I want & say model X, Y & Z give me your best price & if it is right I will walk out of here with one in five minutes.

Bing Lee is an example of the way retial has to some extent adapted when it comes to browngoods and whitegoods with negotiable pricing. Part of that in turn has been the formation of buying groups like NARTA where you wind up with 27 companies all in the one buying group- which forces pressure on suppliers to lower invoice costs which then allows for a competitive retail environment.

If the toy industry operated in a similar way across the board in this country, then half of the competition issues would go out the window.

With pricing, much like packaging, the problem seems to be that Australian retailers almost seem determined to maximise profit per unit rather than maximising turnover while maintaining a healthy profit. It doesn't market to collectors and it arguably doesn't even directly market to kids.

Let's presume for a minute that you have a 5 year old kids earning about $6 a week in pocket money and those kids collect action figures (and yes I was one of those kids growing up- I'd layby things like Headmasters as a 8 year old and pick them up 4 weeks later, winding up with a collection of about 74 tfs from memory by the time I was 12).

With the current market it's impossible for kids to go toy shopping every single week and they're generally stuck spending a month to pick up a figure we'd have been able to pick up in a fortnight, tops.

So generally speaking, the kids aren't being engaged with as consumers at all. Sure they're going through their parents maybe buying them something, but how many of them are able to be active and regular direct clients of the retailers' toy depts? Not many.

So what you wind up with is a move to video games much earlier because even though it's generally parents buying games for kids, the kids get the high from playing them, be it a new high score, time or beating that level.

Meanwhile kids don't personally get that same high from buying stuff they love in the form of toys and experiencing that sense of achievement and ownership.

Obviously there are multiple factors at play here, but this is one way where retailers are literally shooting themselves in the foot.

If a Star Wars Figure goes for $6 in the states, there's no reason why it couldn't go for $8 here. If the obstruction to it is that the supplier costs haven't been lowered to factor in the dramatic change in exchange rates weeks ago, then there's nothing stopping retailers forming a buying group to tighten the thumbscrews on Hasbro til they cave (I'd use another euphamism, but this is a PG rated forum heh).

It all comes down to whether retailers in the toy industry want long term markets or a quick buck followed by a slow spiralling death, be it with engaging with collectors, or engaging with kids directly.