The Great War - What's it all for?

[Verno]

Why did it start?

And why did it start?

What are they actually fighting for?

[Paulbot]

Take your pic of continuity. It could be: control of the AllSpark, domination of the universe, the right to break free of caste and choose your function, freedom of the mini-cons, energon supplies, to prepare the race to battle Unicron, etc

[GoktimusPrime]

To sell toys. ;) :D

Otherwise yeah, like Paulbot said. I like what IDW are doing in adding more depth to the Decepticons' origins.

[Prowl]

Why did it start?

And why did it start?

What are they actually fighting for?

Megatron was like the lovable rogue down the pub always with a story & free with the laughs & energon drinks. Then along came Optimus Prime who wanted to everyone to bow to him & his evil plans for stopping people imbibing large amounts of energon for recreational purposes.

This egomaniac even went so far as to ban music & in particular personal recording devices (so he could not be recorded talking about his evil deeds & plans) he also stated that he was hereby banning personal flight abilities because since he was not talented enough to fly then no one else should be able to.

Needless to say Megatron changed from his usual jovial self & became quite upset. He refused to bow down to Primes demands & dared to question Primes motives. Prime in all his egotistical cocksure attitude declared that Megatron & all the fun loving bots to be deceptive & branded them Decepticons.

That is what started the war because Prime wanted to be Cybertrons dictator & Megatron had the balls to stand up to Prime.

Basically it is ALL Primes fault.

[tinyJazz]

Basically it is ALL Primes fault.

Prowl, what's got into you? Aren't you an Autobot? :(

[Hursticon]

Prowl, what's got into you? Aren't you an Autobot? :(

No no, he's just had the Autobot wool taken away from his eyes... ;):D

[Arcee]

No no, he's just had the Autobot wool taken away from his eyes... ;):D
Either Prime's just fired him or he's had another of his typical system paralysis due to emotional surge triggered shotcircuit. Bumblebee told me he and Rodimus just pranked Prowl again.:D:D:D:D

Awesome story by the way Prowl. Really made my day. I'm sure Prime now regrets and wants you back.:p Megatron is very pleased and wants you on board too. If you are to choose side, beware of a spy called Hursticon, sly and evil in every sense but very amiable on the surface.:D:D

[griffin]

I'm not a fan of IDW's war origin... trying to have us sympathise with Megatron as if he is like a freedom fighter and the Autobots are portrayed as suppressive capitalist elitists.

I much prefer the more traditional, dictator commanding criminals and bullies into a battle against a peaceful utopia. Cybertron was shown as a golden age before Megatron's jealous conquest began, destroying everything, forcing citizens to take up arms against him... most of which didn't do it by choice either.
Sympathising with Megatron is like sympathising with Ned Kelly or Hitler, or any other criminal that had ambitions of power & possessions.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I go largely by the G1 cartoon, which basically places it as the Decepticons are war machines programmed for war, and thus are hardwired for battle and conquest. It's not their fault, they're just programmed like that. The Autobots just don't dig being slaves, so they rebuilt themselves into semi-capable fighters, albeit notably less powerful (as a general rule) than their Decepticon foes. Hence also why the G1 Autobots tend to be more 'cowboy' than 'soldier' - they don't have the inbuilt discipline/obedience of the war machine Decepticons.
It's kinda determinist, sure, but it makes sense.

The Odieverse has a much more detailed plotline involving Primus using the Quintessons as unwitting pawns to create the TFs as a unified race to destroy Unicron, but that's just my own little microcontinuity.

[Hursticon]

Awesome story by the way Prowl. Really made my day. I'm sure Prime now regrets and wants you back.:p Megatron is very pleased and wants you on board too. If you are to choose side, beware of a spy called Hursticon, sly and evil in every sense but very amiable on the surface.:D:D

Hehehe - It's all in the Techspec. :p:D


I'm not a fan of IDW's war origin... trying to have us sympathise with Megatron as if he is like a freedom fighter and the Autobots are portrayed as suppressive capitalist elitists.

I much prefer the more traditional, dictator commanding criminals and bullies into a battle against a peaceful utopia. Cybertron was shown as a golden age before Megatron's jealous conquest began, destroying everything, forcing citizens to take up arms against him... most of which didn't do it by choice either.
Sympathising with Megatron is like sympathising with Ned Kelly or Hitler, or any other criminal that had ambitions of power & possessions.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to put Ned Kelly in the same category of criminal as Megatron or Adolf, but I can see the point you're making; I just think a better comparison would be say... Ivan Mallat than Ned Kelly. ;)
(I don't think Ned had much power beyond that of will to rise up against British oppressors :))

Though I've not read much of the IDW stuff at all, too busy making in-roads with the Marvel stuff :D, I like the idea of Megatron being a little bit more complicated beyond that of an 80s Saturday Morning cartoon villain :o; though Marvel's treatment of him with an extremely short fuse I must say is highly amusing. :p


I go largely by the G1 cartoon, which basically places it as the Decepticons are war machines programmed for war, and thus are hardwired for battle and conquest. It's not their fault, they're just programmed like that. The Autobots just don't dig being slaves, so they rebuilt themselves into semi-capable fighters, albeit notably less powerful (as a general rule) than their Decepticon foes.

Hmm, see, I've grown over time to dislike the whole 'Programming' approach; mainly on the basis that a computer system is unable to operate outside of the parameters it's programming software dictates and hence IMO the Autobots would never rise to arms and the Decepticons would would never start firing upon civilian and their own supply vehicles. :o
(I too subscribed to the consumer goods approach for the longest time, I've since learnt there is so much more than... ;))

With all that being said though, one could argue the point of 'Alien Sentience' but I guess one could also look at how far/deep the programming actually goes baring in mind the Spark. :cool:

[Arcee]

Hehehe - It's all in the Techspec. :p:D

Ignorance is a bliss :p (No...I actually want to shoot myself in the mouth and flush the remains of my body down the toilet :( )


Better shut up on things I don't know and talk about what I do know (and know very well): the origins in the new movie line.


Yes it's the Allspark, and no, it's not the Allspark.

Allspark gave life to the first Primes. They be the ancestors of all Cybertronians. We all know the story of the Fallen and his Prime brothers and the Matrix of Leadership. So those Primes died, Fallen allegedly slaughtered every descendant of the Primes on Cybertron save for one orphan who was hidden away. That orphan be named Optimus.

And I have been unable to find out from the stories how did Sentinel Prime survived that holocaust. It wasn't told (as far as I see it's obviously a logical hole; they changed writers between ROTF and DOTM and somehow the new guys must have forgotten partly what was told before, or deliberately chose to ignore it). Anyway Sentinel found the hidden Optimus and brought him up, together with Megatron. They two be his equally best students and faithful followers. Sentinel managed to capture a sun and secure its orbit around Cybertron, thereby powering Allspark for generation of energon to feed the starving planet. This has secured Sentinel's place as sole leader of the Cybertronians, who then were divided only by tribes and no political allegiances. Cybertron's entered into an era know as The Golden Age.

Another obvious logical defect here is that no one knows where the Fallen was and what he's doing during this Cybertronian Gold Age under leadership of Sentinel. It was revealed that he was in captivity in another world, which doesn't make any sense seeing he's just carried out a massacre before everything ever started and with only two Primes survived (one of which obviously a hatchling back then), no one would ever have the power to defeat him and put him into captivity anyway.

The Golden Age ended when Sentinel decided it's time to retire. He chose Optimus to be the new leader as he believed they share the same blood lineage (believed Optimus to be born a Prime). Optimus rejected this unearned power whereas Megatron, overheard their conversation, got jealous and thought Optimus's refusal was a sign of his weakness and ineptitude. Sentinel retired splitting power equally between his two students, with Optimus in charge of science and history, and Megatron in charge of the defence force (how on earth is that ever considered equal I'll never understand).

Naturally Megatron took full advantage of his power, gradually turned the entire defence force into his own army. Meanwhile Optimus was too preoccupied with his scientific research and archaeological excavate (and too trustful in Megatron) to pay attention to the silent change in his power. Optimus's excavate achieved breakthrough when he reached the geological layer of the Prime's era, and uncovered an intact plate with a Decepticon badge on it. Megatron took possession of the plate, later found out it was a gateway of communication between him and the Fallen. The Fallen thereby took command of Megatron, promising him of unprecedented power should he succeed in erasing out Optimus and his followers and the human race on earth. At the same time, Optimus has came to the conclusion based on his archaeological evidence that he was indeed a descendant of the Primes.

Sentinel during this time, as Optimus wishfully believed, was enjoying his retirement, away from all Megatron's scheme, whereas in fact he had secretly formed alliance with Megatron, deeming Optimus unfit to lead, all of which lead to his later act of betrayal on Prime.

The First Gunshot at Lexington for the Great Cybertronian War officially took place when Megatron ordered Prowl and Bumblebee to arrest Optimus and his fellow bots of science on charge of treason because Optimus "broke into" his quarters to check out the plate while he was away on an invasion battle. Starscream set ambush on the autobots en route but was defeated by Optimus, who lead his crew (together with Prowl and Bumblebee) to successfully break the siege and got away. It was from there that Optimus openly announced himself as Optimus Prime and officially assumed leadership of the autobots as he deemed himself "earned" the power.

The rest of the story, we all pretty much know (unless you haven't watched any of the 3 movies). The Allspark in essence served no more than an excuse/mean of war as it represented power and control over the people. But in the very beginning, the origin of the war was more like a "sibling contest" between Optimus and Megatron, evolving finally into a war under Megatron's jealousy of Prime and ever growing thirst of power.

Yes it's lengthy...I trust I haven't missed any logically material details.

Movie origin was IMO one of the best TF stories ever written, regardless of its logical flaws, as it explores a deeper and more conflicting humanity running inside the main TF characters, making them more real and closer to feelings. Classic G1 is appealing as well but way too naive in story (after all I started watching them when I'm already in my late 20s).

And my comparison is drawn on my own TF knowledge library that consists of three new movies (together with their complete prequels and sequels and everything else related), the first five Madman G1 episodes, the 1986 movie, random bits and pieces of IDW's new publications and zero anything else.

[GoktimusPrime]

Allspark gave life to the first Primes.
Affirmative, as a sacred implement executing Primus' will. Other examples of sacred implements are the Creation Matrix and Vector Sigma. But ultimately all Transformer life and the creation of Cybertron across every universe stems from Primus - either through direct or indirect creation. In the movie universe it appears to be indirect.


They be the ancestors of all Cybertronians.

Negative. The first Primes are not the ancestors of all Cybertronians, only ancestors of the Primes, like Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime. Remember that in every continuity, there were 13 original Transformers created by Primus (directly or indirectly). Revenge of the Fallen stated that there were 7 Primes among the original creations, thus we can deduce that the remaining 6 of the Original 13 were not Primes, and other non-Prime Transformers would have been descendant from them.

This makes sense to me, because if EVERY Transformer was descendant from a Prime, then wouldn't they all be Primes? (Skidimus Prime and Mudflapimus Prime?? No thanks...) Even though Optimus and Megatron were of equal status as co-rulers of Cybertron during the age of unification, only Optimus was entitled to be called "Prime" because only he was a descendant of the Prime lineage (although Optimus initially declined accepting the Prime title, much to Megatron's frustration).


We all know the story of the Fallen and his Prime brothers and the Matrix of Leadership. So those Primes died, Fallen allegedly slaughtered every descendant of the Primes on Cybertron save for one orphan who was hidden away. That orphan be named Optimus.
Negative. Optimus did not exist during such an ancient time in Cybertron's history. The Primes are Optimus' ancestors, not his brothers.


And I have been unable to find out from the stories how did Sentinel Prime survived that holocaust. It wasn't told (as far as I see it's obviously a logical hole; they changed writers between ROTF and DOTM and somehow the new guys must have forgotten partly what was told before, or deliberately chose to ignore it).
Negative, Sentinel Prime isn't that ancient either. Although he is far more ancient than Optimus Prime, he is still also a descendant of the Primes.

Remember that the original 7 Primes also can't transform (e.g. The Fallen never transforms in the movie). In the movie continuity the ability to transform was something that the Original Transformers - well okay, let's call them Cybertronians - built into their creations like their workers and Seekers etc.


Anyway Sentinel found the hidden Optimus and brought him up, together with Megatron.
I don't recall that ever happening.

Sentinel did mentor Optimus and Megatron together - and indeed when it was later discovered that Optimus was a Prime, it planted seeds of anger and jealousy in Megatron which led him to secretly follow a new master - the Fallen.


They two be his equally best students and faithful followers. Sentinel managed to capture a sun and secure its orbit around Cybertron, thereby powering Allspark for generation of energon to feed the starving planet. This has secured Sentinel's place as sole leader of the Cybertronians, who then were divided only by tribes and no political allegiances. Cybertron's entered into an era know as The Golden Age.
It was Sentinel Prime and Wheeljack who transported a sun to Cybertron and harvested its energy. Optimus Prime and Megatron and their followers located the AllSpark before then.


Another obvious logical defect here is that no one knows where the Fallen was and what he's doing during this Cybertronian Gold Age under leadership of Sentinel. It was revealed that he was in captivity in another world, which doesn't make any sense seeing he's just carried out a massacre before everything ever started and with only two Primes survived (one of which obviously a hatchling back then), no one would ever have the power to defeat him and put him into captivity anyway.
Again, Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime weren't around when the Fallen was placed in the Phantom Zone^his sarcophagus.


(how on earth is that ever considered equal I'll never understand).
Optimus Prime was in charge of furthering the Transformers' knowledge and Megatron was in charge of defending Cybertron... they probably had to confer for major executive decisions - this would explain why Megatron requested Optimus to give him supreme executive authority (in Foundation #2); Optimus obliged and that's when Megatron granted himself the title of "Lord High Protector" and outranked Optimus (breaking the balance of power).


Movie origin was IMO one of the best TF stories ever written, regardless of its logical flaws, as it explores a deeper and more conflicting humanity running inside the main TF characters, making them more real and closer to feelings. Classic G1 is appealing as well but way too naive in story (after all I started watching them when I'm already in my late 20s)
I prefer G1, which - to put it very shortly, worked like this:

+ Primus directly creates Cybertron and the original 13 Transformers to combat Unicron. He grants the original 13 Transformers the ability to transform, mimicking Unicron's own ability.
+ Primus imbues a portion of his life essence into a sacred vessel known as the Creation Matrix. In the cartoon continuity Primus' will is executed by another sacred implement known as Vector Sigma
+ The Transformers establish city-states and establishes their capital at Iacon.
+ A group of gladiators arises -- those who survive the Vos-Tarn War are united by Megatron and call themselves Decepticons. Thus they begin a plan to expand and conquer.
+ One by one Cybertron's city-states fall to the expanding Decepticon empire. Sentinel Prime is slain in battle and passes the Matrix to Optimus Prime.
+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle. Under Optimus Prime's leadership, the tide of battle turns. Iacon never falls into Decepticon hands and formerly conquered city-states are liberated by the Autobots' under Prime's command.
+ Optimus Prime leads a group of Autobots aboard the Ark - they are intercepted by Decepticons and accidentally crash on Earth.

[Verno]

+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle.

Would you consider this to be the point that The Great War began? Or when they awaken from the Ark, as Blackarachnia states?

[Arcee]

Negative. The first Primes are not the ancestors of all Cybertronians, only ancestors of the Primes, like Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime. Remember that in every continuity, there were 13 original Transformers created by Primus (directly or indirectly). Revenge of the Fallen stated that there were 7 Primes among the original creations, thus we can deduce that the remaining 6 of the Original 13 were not Primes, and other non-Prime Transformers would have been descendant from them.

This makes sense to me, because if EVERY Transformer was descendant from a Prime, then wouldn't they all be Primes? (Skidimus Prime and Mudflapimus Prime?? No thanks...) Even though Optimus and Megatron were of equal status as co-rulers of Cybertron during the age of unification, only Optimus was entitled to be called "Prime" because only he was a descendant of the Prime lineage (although Optimus initially declined accepting the Prime title, much to Megatron's frustration).
My mistake. Yes that's actually what I think, somehow I don't know why I typed that, woops.

Foundation #2: Optimus's telling of the old Cybertron myth:

"I knew the legend of the Allspark. When the cube crashed into Cybertron, it gave the spark of life to Primus, and his descendants...the Primes.

"Then, the stories go, the Allspark provided the Primes with a workforce of Transformers -- life forms capable of changing their shapes."

It was stated to be 13 original Primes in ROTF Movie Adaptation but somehow the actual movie came out as 7.




Negative. Optimus did not exist during such an ancient time in Cybertron's history. The Primes are Optimus' ancestors, not his brothers.
ROTF Movie Adaptation #3: Jetfire was telling Sam the stories of the Fallen. He said:

"Only a Prime can stand against the Fallen. The war on Cybertron destroyed the Prime Dynasty. All were slaughtered save one. An orphan, hidden away, ignorant of his destiny..."

Sam said: "Optimus Prime."

Jetfire: "You know him?"

......




Negative, Sentinel Prime isn't that ancient either. Although he is far more ancient than Optimus Prime, he is still also a descendant of the Primes.

Remember that the original 7 Primes also can't transform (e.g. The Fallen never transforms in the movie). In the movie continuity the ability to transform was something that the Original Transformers - well okay, let's call them Cybertronians - built into their creations like their workers and Seekers etc.
My doubt is more on how Sentinel Prime could be there in the first place, seeing that the Fallen has already slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who is not Sentinel or Sentinel's antecessor...




I don't recall that ever happening.

Sentinel did mentor Optimus and Megatron together - and indeed when it was later discovered that Optimus was a Prime, it planted seeds of anger and jealousy in Megatron which led him to secretly follow a new master - the Fallen.
Foundation #2: Optimus telling his memory: "When Sentinel Prime found me -- alone and hidden -- he brought me into his home and told me these legends."




It was Sentinel Prime and Wheeljack who transported a sun to Cybertron and harvested its energy. Optimus Prime and Megatron and their followers located the AllSpark before then.
Concurred. I didn't want to bother with that much detail but...yes, this way it's more accurate.




Again, Sentinel Prime and Optimus Prime weren't around when the Fallen was placed in the Phantom Zone^his sarcophagus.
My doubt here: if the Fallen has slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who had the ability to place him in his "sarcophagus" then?

Remember in Tales of the Fallen #4, the Fallen was killing his Prime brothers on earth in order to seize the Matrix. He's successfully killed all but one; that last Prime jumped around on teleportation to gather "the sum total of The Dynasty, the entirety of their lifeforce" and thereby gave the Fallen a last blow to "banish him forever". The Fallen crash landed on what looks like an icy frozen planet far away and swore revenge.

Having successfully "banished" the Fallen, what happened to this one last Prime according to Jetfire's account in ROTF Movie Adaptation #3:

"He (the Fallen) butchered his brother Primes, until only one remained. The last of the twelve sealed the Matrix in a tomb constructed of their remains, fusing it shut with his own life essence."

Which means he, being the last Prime, died. So who was there left to later put the Fallen away to his sarcophagus?

Looks like there is only one plausible explanation here:

This last Prime's last blow was actually what sent the Fallen directly into his sarcophagus. There he remained in captivity until Megatron found him through the plate. And because he had already killed the 11 Primes, with the last Prime sacrificed himself to seal away the Matrix, all Primes have been "slaughtered" -- save for Optimus orphan who was hidden on Cybertron at that time.

But then there still remains questions:

- Who gave life to Sentinel Prime? and

- In Defiance #3 Optimus's excavate got to the layer of the Prime Dynasty, and found every artifact in pieces save one, which was the decepticon plate taken away by Megatron.

Optimus: "I wonder why there was only one intact."

Ratchet: "I think the broken ones were deliberatedly smashed."

Question: if the Fallen's already in captivity, who smashed everything of the Primes back to the end of the Prime Dynasty?




Optimus Prime was in charge of furthering the Transformers' knowledge and Megatron was in charge of defending Cybertron... they probably had to confer for major executive decisions - this would explain why Megatron requested Optimus to give him supreme executive authority (in Foundation #2); Optimus obliged and that's when Megatron granted himself the title of "Lord High Protector" and outranked Optimus (breaking the balance of power).
I was being too politically worldly...was just thinking that this allocation of powers actually caused the later inevitable breaking of balance, by entrusting the full military force into the exclusive hands of one man in the very beginning.




I prefer G1, which - to put it very shortly, worked like this:

+ Primus directly creates Cybertron and the original 13 Transformers to combat Unicron. He grants the original 13 Transformers the ability to transform, mimicking Unicron's own ability.

+ Primus imbues a portion of his life essence into a sacred vessel known as the Creation Matrix. In the cartoon continuity Primus' will is executed by another sacred implement known as Vector Sigma

+ The Transformers establish city-states and establishes their capital at Iacon.

+ A group of gladiators arises -- those who survive the Vos-Tarn War are united by Megatron and call themselves Decepticons. Thus they begin a plan to expand and conquer.

+ One by one Cybertron's city-states fall to the expanding Decepticon empire. Sentinel Prime is slain in battle and passes the Matrix to Optimus Prime.

+ High Councillor Traachon vetoes himself out of office - the Autobot Council of Elders steps down and gives supreme executive authority to Optimus Prime. For the first time ever, supreme command of the Autobots now rests in the hands of a soldier and not politicians who had never seen battle. Under Optimus Prime's leadership, the tide of battle turns. Iacon never falls into Decepticon hands and formerly conquered city-states are liberated by the Autobots' under Prime's command.

+ Optimus Prime leads a group of Autobots aboard the Ark - they are intercepted by Decepticons and accidentally crash on Earth.
Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else? I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as:

Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...

[Paulbot]

Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else?

Goktimus is mostly referencing the UK Marvel comics, except for the "accidental" part... The driving motivation for Optimus Prime in the comic is that the crash on earth was explicitly "not" accidental.


I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as: Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...

This is the best way to describe the G1 origin as it's simple and pretty true for nearly all G1 style universes (except IDW).

[Prowl]

Prowl, what's got into you? Aren't you an Autobot? :(

I am a cop so I work for whoever is in power.


No no, he's just had the Autobot wool taken away from his eyes... ;):D

I saw through Prime & his megalomania. He was prepared to destroy Cybertron to further his aims. Megatron like Fox news is fair & balanced.


Awesome story by the way Prowl. Really made my day. I'm sure Prime now regrets and wants you back.:p Megatron is very pleased and wants you on board too. If you are to choose side, beware of a spy called Hursticon, sly and evil in every sense but very amiable on the surface.:D:D

Prime can suck my exhaust. Megatron buys me energon drinks & has said he will teach me to fly. WTF is Prime gonna do? Make me help that little bastard Witwicky get into Carly's pants because he needs a cool ride.

F**k it Prime will get his little lapdog Bumblebee (he got his name because he f**ks up all the time) to help him put the moves on Carly. I feel like smashing bee's gearbox in.

[Demonac]

Megatron like Fox news is fair & balanced.

Awesome analogy

[Verno]

Wow, um, best cool your heels their Prowl, a Mod might not take too kindly to all that.

So, for the most part, it was for control of Cybertron?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Hmm, see, I've grown over time to dislike the whole 'Programming' approach; mainly on the basis that a computer system is unable to operate outside of the parameters it's programming software dictates and hence IMO the Autobots would never rise to arms and the Decepticons would would never start firing upon civilian and their own supply vehicles. :o
(I too subscribed to the consumer goods approach for the longest time, I've since learnt there is so much more than... ;))

With all that being said though, one could argue the point of 'Alien Sentience' but I guess one could also look at how far/deep the programming actually goes baring in mind the Spark. :cool:The Odieverse uses an (Un)Intelligent Design approach whereby the slumbering Primus causes the Quintessons to create the pre-Transformers and bestow them with emotions etc., which neatly covers this and a bunch more stuff. As far as the G1 'toon goes it's easier not to think about it too deeply and for the shallow explanations they offered programming coupled with advanced Cybertronian processors suffices. I like it for it's simplicity but it is kinda limited - the Odieverse backstory irons out a lot of loose ends and draws together quite a few other bits and pieces of the whole TF mythos.
More importantly, where does Optimus Prime's trailer go when he transforms to robot mode?:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Would you consider this to be the point that The Great War began? Or when they awaken from the Ark, as Blackarachnia states?
The Great War began when the Decepticons started attacking the Autobots. In the G1 cartoon the war started when Megatron led a group of Decepticons to steal Energon and one of the casualties of that attack was a worker named Orion Pax... who of course was rebuilt as Optimus Prime. ;) David Wise thought it'd be cool if the first shot fired that started the war resulted in the "birth" of Optimus Prime.

Blackarachnia's knowledge of Cybertronian history isn't entirely accurate anyway - for instance, if you watch her flashback the Decepticon crew of the Nemesis never board the Ark and attack the Autobots from the inside, instead we see the Nemesis firing upon the Ark -- much like the fight that brought down the Axalon and Darksyde. But this was inaccurate because as soon as Megatron entered the Ark we see Autobots and Decepticons lying about in stasis - just as in G1. And of course, Megatron later broke into the Ark to abduct G1 Megatron's Spark from G1 Megatron's body inside the Ark, and not the Nemesis.

Blackarachnia: "I'm a saboteur, not a historian!"
All right all right, calm your web... ;)



Foundation #2: Optimus's telling of the old Cybertron myth:

"I knew the legend of the Allspark. When the cube crashed into Cybertron, it gave the spark of life to Primus, and his descendants...the Primes.
It may have referred to the first Cybertronian being created as being called Primus, but not necessarily the god Primus. Primus as a god was created by the universal source - and Primus is a multiversal singularity, so this must hold true in all TF continuities.

As you said, the story is a myth so it's hard to know exactly how much of it is valid. After all, in G1 even Primus himself was thought to be a myth for a long time, and Cybertronians stopped believing in him until Bumblebee, Jazz, Grimlock, Red Hot, Seawatch, Fixit and Stakeout were accidentally transported to Primus' chamber deep within Cybertron!


"Then, the stories go, the Allspark provided the Primes with a workforce of Transformers -- life forms capable of changing their shapes."
Yup. This the original Primes (and possibly the other 6 original Cybertronians) themselves were unable to transform, but subsequent Cybertronians created to serve them were able to transform. That would also explain why the Fallen never transforms in Revenge of the Fallen.


It was stated to be 13 original Primes in ROTF Movie Adaptation but somehow the actual movie came out as 7.
Yep, thus it is officially 7 Primes, irrespective of what predating versions may have stated (because the film would have retconned the 13 as 7, thus rendering the 13 Primes origin as incorrect). The film retcon makes more sense too IMO, cos otherwise as I said, if EVERY Transformer were descendant from a Prime, then they would all be Primes and not just Optimus! Cos otherwise it'd be like...

Optimus: "Hey guys guess what? I found the Mark of the Primes on my left ear! It means I'm a descendant of the Dynasty of the Primes! Now I'm Optimus Prime!"

Ironhide: "Good for you. I have the same Mark on my left butt cheek. Call me Ironhidimus Prime."

Wheelie: "An' I gots the same Mark on my crotch! Cawl me Crotchimus Prime!"

Optimus: "Why not Wheelimus Prime?"

Wheelie: "Cos dat'd be stoopid, stoopid!"

Optimus: "......."


ROTF Movie Adaptation #3: Jetfire was telling Sam the stories of the Fallen. He said:

"Only a Prime can stand against the Fallen. The war on Cybertron destroyed the Prime Dynasty. All were slaughtered save one. An orphan, hidden away, ignorant of his destiny..."

Sam said: "Optimus Prime."

Jetfire: "You know him?"

......
Damnit...

Okay, I'd say that orphan was probably Sentinel Prime - he might have been ignorant of his destiny at first, then later found out about it - just like Optimus. After all, if he grew up with no other Primes around, then it's possible.

Reasons to support this:
+ Sentinel Prime can transform, unlike the original 7 Primes.
+ The original 7 Primes all died, save for the one who became the Fallen - who eventually died from shame (loss of face ;)).

It's possible that Jetfire never knew the name of this orphan and so when Sam mentioned "Optimus Prime" he may have assumed that it was that orphan whereas in fact he is the orphan's descendant.


My doubt is more on how Sentinel Prime could be there in the first place, seeing that the Fallen has already slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who is not Sentinel or Sentinel's antecessor...
That's why I like to believe that the orphan may have been Sentinel Prime.


Foundation #2: Optimus telling his memory: "When Sentinel Prime found me -- alone and hidden -- he brought me into his home and told me these legends."
Again, this doesn't contradict my theory. Optimus may have been a "lost boy" which Sentinel later found and nurtured...


My doubt here: if the Fallen has slaughtered all the Primes save one orphan, who had the ability to place him in his "sarcophagus" then?

Remember in Tales of the Fallen #4, the Fallen was killing his Prime brothers on earth in order to seize the Matrix. He's successfully killed all but one; that last Prime jumped around on teleportation to gather "the sum total of The Dynasty, the entirety of their lifeforce" and thereby gave the Fallen a last blow to "banish him forever". The Fallen crash landed on what looks like an icy frozen planet far away and swore revenge.

Having successfully "banished" the Fallen, what happened to this one last Prime according to Jetfire's account in ROTF Movie Adaptation #3:

"He (the Fallen) butchered his brother Primes, until only one remained. The last of the twelve sealed the Matrix in a tomb constructed of their remains, fusing it shut with his own life essence."

Which means he, being the last Prime, died. So who was there left to later put the Fallen away to his sarcophagus?
The Fallen was already banished just before the last Prime sacrificed himself to create the Tomb of the Primes.


- Who gave life to Sentinel Prime? and
Sentinel as the orphan would explain this.


Optimus: "I wonder why there was only one intact."

Ratchet: "I think the broken ones were deliberatedly smashed."

Question: if the Fallen's already in captivity, who smashed everything of the Primes back to the end of the Prime Dynasty?
I thought Megatron smashed them after he took the Fallen's sarcophagus. <shrug>


Is this the story line of the Madman G1 cartoon, or the Marvel comics, or the UK version, or something else?
Like Paulbot said. Also, the G1 cartoons were made by Sunbow, not Madman. Madman merely distributed the series here in Australia - and even then their episodes were copied off another DVD company called Rhino.


I know I've only watched 5 episodes of the Madman series and probably know only a tip of the iceberg but based on the tip I've studies so far it goes as simple as:

Evil decepticons and the valiant autobots, war over energon, crash landing on earth, four millions years ago...
A rather simplistic but otherwise accurate summary. But you were saying that the movie origin story "is one of the best TF stories ever written despite its logical flaws" -- I personally don't think it's as well structured as the G1 comic origin story(stories) and in terms of overall writing, I find the G1 comics and Beast Wars to be better written anyway.



More importantly, where does Optimus Prime's trailer go when he transforms to robot mode?:p
Years ago there was a photocomic printed in ToyFare magazine that explained this...
* Image of Prime's Trailer lifting weights at the gym
* Image of Prime's Trailer crowd surfing at a baseball game
* Image of Prime's Trailer and He-Man throwing dollar bills at pole-dancing strippers
...so now you know.

[Prowl]

Wow, um, best cool your heels their Prowl, a Mod might not take too kindly to all that.

So, for the most part, it was for control of Cybertron?

Fair enough. I did ** the swearing & tried to keep it PGish. That said Prime grinds my gears helping the weak flesh creatured when we should make them work for us not us work for them.

Before you say "but Megatron shot you in the movie" I will let you in a secret. It was all a set up :eek:. When has Prowl ever gone down from a single shot? NEVER!!!!

[Arcee]

I am a cop so I work for whoever is in power.
Sounds like the Prowl I love.



Okay, I'd say that orphan was probably Sentinel Prime - he might have been ignorant of his destiny at first, then later found out about it - just like Optimus. After all, if he grew up with no other Primes around, then it's possible.

Reasons to support this:
+ Sentinel Prime can transform, unlike the original 7 Primes.
+ The original 7 Primes all died, save for the one who became the Fallen - who eventually died from shame (loss of face ;)).

It's possible that Jetfire never knew the name of this orphan and so when Sam mentioned "Optimus Prime" he may have assumed that it was that orphan whereas in fact he is the orphan's descendant.
You don't say...that does make MUCH better sense to the whole logic of the story.

Though I suspect that at the time the ROTF story was written up whoever wrote it probably didn't intend to make the orphan Sentinel (though they did mention him and his some strange experiment unfathomable by earth physics), his whole presence in DOTM feels like the idea of him was quite new, not much in connection with whatever has been told in the previous movie stories. After all DOTM was created by a whole different team of screenwriters.

But...anyway...yeah, Sentinel being that orphan would make up a LOT for those logical problems.




I thought Megatron smashed them after he took the Fallen's sarcophagus. <shrug>
Nah; in Defiance #1, Optimus was trying to argue with Megatron over rights over the excavate sites and artifacts, when Elita-One rushed to them to report the finding of the decepticon plate. The dialogue goes:

Elita-One: Sir, you have to come quick, we've found one intact.

Optimus: Intact? With the others?

Elita-One: Yes, sir. It's the only one we've found so far.

Megatron: Only one, what?

Elita-One: Well, sir, we don't know what they are. The site is still far from being fully revealed. But so far the objects all show a pattern.

Megatron: Objects? Just what kind of objects?

Elita-One: Well, they're broken, except the one. Why don't you come see for youself?




A rather simplistic but otherwise accurate summary. But you were saying that the movie origin story "is one of the best TF stories ever written despite its logical flaws" -- I personally don't think it's as well structured as the G1 comic origin story(stories) and in terms of overall writing, I find the G1 comics and Beast Wars to be better written anyway.
I wait to testify that; like I said, I haven't touched any G1 comic (I did buy them but...you know...) or anything BWs so far. Everyone's been saying how great the BWs stories are so I really look forward to seeing it for myself :rolleyes:. But until then, I stay where I am in saying that I like the movie origins (to be more specific, the combination of Defiance and Foundation only) most appealing to me.;)




Years ago there was a photocomic printed in ToyFare magazine that explained this...
* Image of Prime's Trailer lifting weights at the gym
* Image of Prime's Trailer crowd surfing at a baseball game
* Image of Prime's Trailer and He-Man throwing dollar bills at pole-dancing strippers
...so now you know.
I'd die for a glimpse of that, lol :D



That said Prime grinds my gears helping the weak flesh creatured when we should make them work for us not us work for them.
Again, sounds like the Prowl I love.




Before you say "but Megatron shot you in the movie" I will let you in a secret. It was all a set up :eek:. When has Prowl ever gone down from a single shot? NEVER!!!!
That's the part I hate most in that movie...and his whole head flaming orange smoke...

Another one I hate most: Ultra Magnus got blasted into pieces -- under like what, just one shot from Galvatron? If he's really that weak OP would never have given him the Matrix in the first place.

And I've been unable to understand why a smashed Ultra Magnus can be easily fixed and revived by some junkion glue, when they can't even save a mostly complete Optimus Prime??? :confused:

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I'd die for a glimpse of that, lol :D

Another one I hate most: Ultra Magnus got blasted into pieces -- under like what, just one shot from Galvatron? If he's really that weak OP would never have given him the Matrix in the first place.

And I've been unable to understand why a smashed Ultra Magnus can be easily fixed and revived by some junkion glue, when they can't even save a mostly complete Optimus Prime??? :confused:Yeah, if anyone can link to that that'd be awesome. The Odieverse just got another facet, booyah!:D

As a minor aside, Magnus got blasted a heap of times by a horde of Sweeps, and in the original script (which was sort of animated for) was going to be drawn and quartered by them (listen to the sound effect and watch the Sweeps laser blasts (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJgtV_gih-I)). The original script was pretty full-on truth be told.

[Hursticon]

Ignorance is a bliss :p (No...I actually want to shoot myself in the mouth and flush the remains of my body down the toilet :( )

LOL :p, wait-what? :confused:


Megatron like Fox news is fair & balanced.


Awesome analogy

LOL, I agree - I laughed good at that one! :p:D


More importantly, where does Optimus Prime's trailer go when he transforms to robot mode?:p


Years ago there was a photocomic printed in ToyFare magazine that explained this...
* Image of Prime's Trailer lifting weights at the gym
* Image of Prime's Trailer crowd surfing at a baseball game
* Image of Prime's Trailer and He-Man throwing dollar bills at pole-dancing strippers
...so now you know.

Oh man, lol, that would be awesome to see! :p:D


Another one I hate most: Ultra Magnus got blasted into pieces -- under like what, just one shot from Galvatron? If he's really that weak OP would never have given him the Matrix in the first place.

And I've been unable to understand why a smashed Ultra Magnus can be easily fixed and revived by some junkion glue, when they can't even save a mostly complete Optimus Prime??? :confused:

Really?, if you think that series of events is bad you should see what happens to him in Headmasters; it's utterly ludicrous and yet thoroughly funny. ;):D

[Paulbot]

So, for the most part, it was for control of Cybertron?
Yes, pretty much always, using various means (Earth's resources, minicons, the AllSpark, the Cube, timetravel assassination plots, planet-wide reformatting and enslavement, Energon, Cyber planet keys, O parts, Dark Energon etc) as the way to achieve it.

The way Blackarachnia described it (in The Agenda Part 3 and IIRC) the "Great War" was what we saw in the US G1 cartoon, starting when they woke in the Ark in 1984 until the Rebirth in 2007.

[Hursticon]

The way Blackarachnia described it (in The Agenda Part 3 and IIRC) the "Great War" was what we saw in the US G1 cartoon, starting when they woke in the Ark in 1984 until the Rebirth in 2007.

That's how I always saw it. :)

[Verno]

Yes, pretty much always, using various means (Earth's resources, minicons, the AllSpark, the Cube, timetravel assassination plots, planet-wide reformatting and enslavement, Energon, Cyber planet keys, O parts, Dark Energon etc) as the way to achieve it.

The way Blackarachnia described it (in The Agenda Part 3 and IIRC) the "Great War" was what we saw in the US G1 cartoon, starting when they woke in the Ark in 1984 until the Rebirth in 2007.

So the little skirmish that had been going on for the previous thousand years or so wasn't that Great? :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Heh. Well, as I said before, we are looking at a recount of historical events as interpreted by Blackarachnia - most of which is historically accurate, but some things aren't.

The Autobot-Decepticon conflict had been waging on Cybertron millions of years before arriving on Cybertron - and continued to be waged for an additional four million years while the occupants of the Ark remained in stasis. In the G1 comics, Lord Straxus rose to power and the Autobots were driven underground (re: Autobase) under the leadership of Emirate Xaaron. In the G1 cartoon, Shockwave ruled over Cybertron in Megatron's absence and there was again underground resistance formed by Alpha Trion.

Even Blackarachnia's recount of how the Ark crashed on Earth wasn't entirely accurate. In Blackarachnia's recount we see the Nemesis engaging in ship-to-ship battle with the Ark above Earth, shooting down the Ark. In both the G1 comics and cartoon this didn't happen - the Decepticons boarded the Ark and fought the Autobots inside, and then the Ark crashed on Earth. Later when Megatron and Blackarachnia entered the Ark we see that there are both Autobots and Decepticons lying in stasis; awaiting reactivation in 1984C.E., which is historically accurate - but contradicts the part of Blackarachnia's recount where the Ark was shot down by the Nemesis.

But Blackarachnia's not exactly a historian - and while she does possess impressive knowledge of historical events, it would have been knowledge that she acquired on prehistoric Earth since that was where she was "born" -- she'd never been on Cybertron (at the time) to access more extensive historical archives.

[Verno]

But Blackarachnia's not exactly a historian - and while she does possess impressive knowledge of historical events, it would have been knowledge that she acquired on prehistoric Earth since that was where she was "born" -- she'd never been on Cybertron (at the time) to access more extensive historical archives.

Yes, this raises another interesting dilemma: Who was Blackarachnia.

I refuse to believe that Maximals in stasis were nothing more than blanks with Sparks. They had to have some kind of life or memories from before going into the pod.

Take Grimlock for example. He emerged from a Stasis Pod and was Grimlock, not someone else. Granted in some universes he's dead by the time of the signing of the Pax Cybertronia, but he retains all his memories.

Blackarachnia's pod wasn't damaged, so no risk of loss of memory there, she simply had a Shell Program put on top of her Maximal Programming.

Quandary.

[Paulbot]

I actually hate the idea that Airazor and Tigatron just happened to be two Maximals who happened to get injured just before the Axalon left Cybertron and just happen to be in two of the small number of statis pods that crashed which just happened to be close enough for the Maximals to get to them before the Predacons and they just happened to lose their memories and just happened to never be reminded of their past lives all just to sell two Cybertron repaints by the Collectors Club.

Makes much more sense to me for them to be newborn Transformers with the exception of Rampage (and in the expanded universe Grimlock).

But then I regard the Collectors Club fiction as only marginally more legit than fan fiction (that is).

[Hursticon]

Yes, this raises another interesting dilemma: Who was Blackarachnia?

You could always use TF: Animated's explanation... Nah. ;)

I like the concept of the Predacon shell program's depth, in that her original personality has been so irreparably modified, so too her memory to varying degrees, that it could never be fully/properly retrieved but at her very core, re: spark, Maximal belief structures and various segments of memory still reside; just slightly tainted. :cool:

As to her original personality, and by extension Inferno's also, I think it's a very open book but I like to think of her as an excelling Maximal espionage agent with a passion for Cybertronian History; who's detailed knowledge only contains errors due to the Pax Cybertronia's ruling that the events of the Ark's crew, Earth's location and subsequent information be skewed - resulting in her interest as to the contents of the Golden Discs. ;):)

[GoktimusPrime]

I refuse to believe that Maximals in stasis were nothing more than blanks with Sparks. They had to have some kind of life or memories from before going into the pod.
Why do they have to have had another previous life? The Axalon was an expeditionary vessel - her 5 year mission (http://media.screened.com/uploads/0/47/60590-compare_ncc_1701.jpg), to explore new worlds suitable for colonisation. Why not populate new worlds with new born protoforms?

As Paulbot said, protoforms based on pre-existing Cybertronians were the exception, not the rule. Unit 2 and Wing Sabre's sparks were remotely uploaded into blank protoforms to save them. Grimlock wasn't a protoform per se, he opted to spend the journey aboard the Axalon in stasis rather than deal with prolonged inactivity of a long trip (kinda like some people go into suspended animation in other scifi franchises like Aliens). His stasis pod simply scanned him a local alt mode form when he awoke from his suspended animation. Protoform X was likewise placed into "suspended animation".

Basically unless canon tells us otherwise, I'd assume that all the protoforms were blank and "unborn" Cybertronians, not pre-existing ones.

[Verno]

No way. What if the protoform woke up and didn't want to be on an exploration vessel? They're stuck on it for 5 years. No way. They are volunteer positions.

And you're overlooking the role of the Stasis Pod itself.

With a little bit of imagination: The Stasis Pod is dropped off at a planet, the Axalon would fly off to another planet, the pod would land, scan the environment, adapt a Beast mode most suitable for the terrain, and then the reformatted protoform in its new skin would search the new environment to see if it was suitable for colonisation. Then, after a period of time, the Maximal would climb back into the pod and fly back into orbit to meet the Axalon and move on to another planet.

The volunteer Maximal crew would have skills suitable for this job. And a life before getting onboard the Axalon.

[GoktimusPrime]

No way. What if the protoform woke up and didn't want to be on an exploration vessel? They're stuck on it for 5 years. No way. They are volunteer positions.
Unless you can show me canonical evidence to support your claim, I'm going to go with the concept that protoforms are "unborn" Transformers - with the sole exceptions of ones which canon has exempted (e.g. Tigatron, Airazor, Rampage, Grimlock). I don't recall any canonical evidence that definitely indicates that Blackarachnia was a pre-existing Cybertronian prior to her activation on Earth. Simply being able to recall certain events from the Autobot-Decepticon War alone isn't enough as she could have accessed that from data tracks aboard the Dark Syde etc.

What if the Maximal protoform didn't want to be an explorer? Well what if a Decepticon was created that wasn't sure if he wanted to be a Decepticon (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Thundercracker_%28G1%29)? Or an Autobot who wasn't keen on being an Autobot (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mirage_%28G1%29)? (or an Autobot who was just plain nutso evil (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Flame_%28Marvel%29)?) Or a Transformer who was part of an army but deplored fighting (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Groove_%28G1%29)? Or one of Megatron's Predacons who doubted their cause (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Fractyl)?

Not every Transformer _wants_ to be in the situation that they're in... but often they are, and in the case of war they have little choice. Rattrap made it very clear that he was less than enthused about being a combatant in the Beast Wars. At least as a civilian colonist I suppose they could apply for a transfer off their colony and request reassignment to Cybertron or wherever. It is possible for transfers to occur among Maximals - after all Big Convoy was transferred out of active front line combat duty to being a trainer for new recruits.

"Fate rarely calls us at a moment of our choosing."

Besides, one could argue that one advantage of colonising a world with "newborns" is that they're not going to be homesick for Cybertron (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Huffer_%28G1%29); most of them would probably accept being colonials because that's all they've known... after all, when it looked like Ravage might help the Maximals return to Cybertron, it was Silverbolt who looked rather upset and remarked, "Cybertron... the home I've never known."


And you're overlooking the role of the Stasis Pod itself.

With a little bit of imagination: The Stasis Pod is dropped off at a planet, the Axalon would fly off to another planet, the pod would land, scan the environment, adapt a Beast mode most suitable for the terrain, and then the reformatted protoform in its new skin would search the new environment to see if it was suitable for colonisation. Then, after a period of time, the Maximal would climb back into the pod and fly back into orbit to meet the Axalon and move on to another planet.
Or they could just use a remote probe to do this. We have done this with Mars, and our technology is crude and primitive compared to theirs!

Besides, canonical evidence shows that stasis pods are incapable of flight. The stasis pod that Optimus Primal and Blackarachnia flew were heavily modified. Besides, if they could, then it would've been a silly idea to drop off Protoform X to some uninhabited world if he were capable of using that stasis pod to get off-world. Tarantulas and Blackarachnia were able to modify stasis pods for flight using parts salvaged from the Darksyde (e.g. stolen transwarp drive).

[Verno]

You're hamstrung by Canon.

Maximals aren't slaves. And the Great War is over. A Maximal can do whatever they want to do. If they didn't want to be on that ship, then they wouldn't have been. This isn't Starship Troopers where one has to earn their citizenship with a stint in the military.

Rattrap - Probably escaping some kind of criminal charge for not so reputable transactions.

Cheetor - Youth, excited by the prospects of adventure.

Rhinox - Old hand, looking for a quiet ride around the Universe in peace.

Optimus Primal - 1st time Captain of his very own Starship.

None of this is 'canon' but can be assumed by what we learn of them and of their decisions during the course of the show.

Stasis pods always seem to be rigged with Transwarp cells when they're 'modified', but I'm of the opinion that they are already fitted with engines for planetary entry/landing and take-off. They sure as hell wouldn't all crash land - we've seen what happens when they do.

Rampage's was probably specially built as a prison. There is nothing in canon to say it was and there is nothing in canon that says that it wasn't, so canon, which you hold so much stead in, fails a lot. You've gotta take some creative license from time to time.

[Hursticon]

Canonical evidence Goki? - We are talking about Transformers right? :p

Honestly, I'd like to see this sort of question fleshed out in some new Beast Wars based media, rather than seeing G1 rehashed all the bloody time, amongst many other subjects as the series has left things like this open enough to speculation. :cool:

The lack of canonical evidence is present for both sides of the argument, if it wasn't we wouldn't be having this conversation but I put this too everyone:

Simon Furman has stated that, with regards to the upcoming continuation of the US Marvel G1 continuity issue #81, whilst he wont be continuing on from G2 he won't be completely disregarding it either and as such (I hope), as he is on record as saying he really wanted to do more with Beast Wars, what if he were to work towards building the narrative (hence cannon) around the Pax Cybertronia and the introduction of the Predacon and Maximal factions proper? - What are everyone's thoughts on this progressive step and would members be against such a destination?

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Maximals aren't slaves. And the Great War is over. A Maximal can do whatever they want to do. If they didn't want to be on that ship, then they wouldn't have been. This isn't Starship Troopers where one has to earn their citizenship with a stint in the military.Wouldn't it be interesting if Goki was right, though? Between that and the Protoform X experiment it kind of puts a different slant on the Maximals, who come off looking more like the Animated Autobots. It'd also kind of explain BW Megatron's urge to 'free' the Predacons from Maximal rule.

If Blackarachnia did have a pre-Earth personality I'd be inclined to put it as a sassier, snarkier, more sultry version of Prime Arcee, eager to get off boring Cybertron. But that's just IMO, and if we're looking at canon then BM Blackarachnia is the most likely bet.
*shudder*

[Hursticon]

Wouldn't it be interesting if Goki was right, though? Between that and the Protoform X experiment it kind of puts a different slant on the Maximals, who come off looking more like the Animated Autobots. It'd also kind of explain BW Megatron's urge to 'free' the Predacons from Maximal rule.

An interesting suggestion, sort of like a repeat of what apparently transpired in the IDW G1 Universe i.e. Megatron leading a group of bots out of oppression. :cool:
(I like that idea ;))


If Blackarachnia did have a pre-Earth personality I'd be inclined to put it as a sassier, snarkier, more sultry version of Prime Arcee, eager to get off boring Cybertron. But that's just IMO, and if we're looking at canon then BM Blackarachnia is the most likely bet.
*shudder*

I concur, *shudder* :p, but I like the idea of her being akin to a darker TF: Prime Arcee. :)

[Verno]

If Blackarachnia did have a pre-Earth personality I'd be inclined to put it as a sassier, snarkier, more sultry version of Prime Arcee, eager to get off boring Cybertron. But that's just IMO, and if we're looking at canon then BM Blackarachnia is the most likely bet.
*shudder*

Shuuders all round.

But if we must tip-toe this line of canon, 2 points come to mind.

1. BM showed that a Transformer could have one personality transposed over another. eg. Thrust over Waspinator. Jetstorm over Silverbolt. Tankor over Rhinox.

2. Whatever BW Megatron's Transmuter device was that was used on Rhinox was, it turned Rhinox into a Predacon, and was an altering of his personality. some facets, namely his schemingness and such, were hightened. Others, like his compassion, were lessened or removed.

I would think that a Predacon Shell Program would have a similar effect to the Transmuter in its altering of personality. So I think you're right about BW Blackarachnia being sassy, snakey and sultry originally, but with the Shell Program over the top, she had a few personality tweaks as well.

-Edit-

Oh and BW Megatron's actions were never for the greater good of the Predacons, it was always about himself, his own power.

[Bartrim]

I believe the great war started over an argument about what was considered canon for their favourite show:p

[Hursticon]

I believe the great war started over an argument about what was considered canon for their favourite show:p

Sure sounds like the Kicker huh?... *crickets*

[GoktimusPrime]

You're hamstrung by Canon.
Evidence FTW dude. :) You can make up fan-theories all you like, but without evidence to verify it then it holds little canonical validity. Some fan-theories are better than others; i.e. ones that are based on evidence but cannot be absolutely/conclusively proven by it (much like say scientific theories).

I'm not going to agree or disagree with fan theories... I have little interest in discussing them myself. (but if you and others wanna talk about it, go for it. :)).


Rampage's was probably specially built as a prison. There is nothing in canon to say it was and there is nothing in canon that says that it wasn't, so canon, which you hold so much stead in, fails a lot. You've gotta take some creative license from time to time.
There's this thing called Burden of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof). Basically if you want to claim that something can be true, then it is your responsibility as the claimant to provide evidence that it's true. Otherwise you can't hold claim that it is. Again you're welcome to your own fan theories. :)

[Verno]

There's this thing called Burden of Proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof). Basically if you want to claim that something can be true, then it is your responsibility as the claimant to provide evidence that it's true. Otherwise you can't hold claim that it is. Again you're welcome to your own fan theories. :)

I'm all for reading between the lines.

Primal's line in Bad Spark - "somewhere far, someplace barren". As you said, why would they give the Stasis pod engines? You can draw the conclusion that it was a specialised pod for holding him. We know it's true because it's bigger than a normal stasis pod. Its a temporary prison at best. They knew he'd break out of it, but as long as he was somewhere he couldn't cause any trouble when he did, then all was well.