Questions that need Answering [Archive] - Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia (otca.com.au)

GoktimusPrime

18th January 2012, 10:42 PM

The origins of the Maximal/Predacon upgrade is fundamentally a continuation of G1 Micromaster technology - remember that in G1 Micromasters were created as a means to conserve fuel, and that's also what the Maximals/Predacons do better than full-sized Autobots and Decepticons (in "The Agenda" when BW Megatron enters the Ark and beholds the Autobots and Decepticons lying in stasis, he calls them "Archaic Energon guzzlers.")

At the end of the Great War around the time that the Pax Cybertronia was signed Transformers were given the option to undergo the Maximal/Predacon Upgrade. Some chose to do so (e.g. Prowl, Prowl II, Silverbolt (non-Fuzor), Ironhide, Grimlock, Arcee, Ravage, Optimus Prime, Megatron (G1) etc.) whilst others chose not to (e.g. Trailbreaker, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker etc.) - pretty ironic of Trailbreaker not to undergo the upgrade considering that he's the most fuel inefficient Autobot and it's something that had always bugged him. :/

As for the Creation Matrix itself, I'm not sure if we know what happened to it... perhaps it merged with Vector Sigma - which may explain why Vector Sigma became a self-proclaimed god in Beast Wars (and was explicitly targeted by Unicron who possessed Vector Sigma to control Cybertron)... in many ways, Vector Sigma kinda behaved like Primus, so perhaps she was imbued with Primus' essence through the Matrix. Another thing to keep in mind is that many Maximal captains and commanders carry around Matrices with them as well. Optimus Primal has one (he once used it to transform himself to Burning Convoy), Lio Convoy has one (he used it to transform himself into Flash Lio Convoy) and Big Convoy has one (which he frequently used to commune with Vector Sigma) -- also, Lio Convoy and Big Convoy combined the power of their Matrices to defeat Unicron... so perhaps these Matrices were forged from the original Creation Matrix itself ?<shrug>?

Hursticon

18th January 2012, 11:06 PM

For me, I've always wondered what happened to those who chose not to downsize/upgrade and join the protoform based factions? - Did they chose self imposed exile?, were they found uses/jobs in this new era?, is there really a giant retirement home?... :confused:

Obviously those closest to the heartbeats of the Autobot/Decepticon Wars would largely remain involved in some sort of Military, Political or Advisory role with the new Maximal/Predacon feuds but I'm curious as to what happened to the innocent bystanders, civilians and those who had simply had enough. :cool:

I think it'd be really interesting to see how these "Guzzlers" would assimilate into this new world or maybe even how they didn't fit into it? - How their cultures grew and assimilated or if one simply gave way to the other? :)
(A parallel of sorts to Australia's own Imagrational history in a way :o)

GoktimusPrime

18th January 2012, 11:16 PM

liegeprime

19th January 2012, 12:11 AM

At the end of the Great War around the time that the Pax Cybertronia was signed Transformers were given the option to undergo the Maximal/Predacon Upgrade. Some chose to do so (e.g. Prowl, Prowl II, Silverbolt (non-Fuzor), Ironhide, Grimlock, Arcee, Ravage, Optimus Prime, Megatron (G1) etc.) whilst others chose not to (e.g. Trailbreaker, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker etc.) - pretty ironic of Trailbreaker not to undergo the upgrade considering that he's the most fuel inefficient Autobot and it's something that had always bugged him. :/

This kinda raises other Questions though Goki - Optimus and Megatron chose to undergo the Upgrade...Bat/croc. So with this in mind this follows what continuity? Comics I guess? - certainly not the movie /toons verse otherwise this just denies Galvatrons/Rodimus P existence.
G2 comics perhaps? coz at the t end the Autobots and Decpticons were allies then... would it have continued on to the Pax Cybertronia? and if so... why then is there a message in a bottle from G1 megs to "carry on" the fight if he himself chose to be upgraded in the time of Pax?

Demonac

19th January 2012, 12:58 AM

At the end of the Great War ... Transformers were given the option to undergo the Maximal/Predacon Upgrade. Some chose to do so (e.g. Prowl, Prowl II, Silverbolt (non-Fuzor), Ironhide, Grimlock, Arcee, Ravage, Optimus Prime, Megatron (G1) etc.) whilst others chose not to (e.g. Trailbreaker, Sideswipe, Sunstreaker etc.)

Why was Prowl good enough to get a sequel?

Cat

19th January 2012, 01:06 AM

Why was Prowl good enough to get a sequel?

He's kinda mashed everything into one, which IMO, just isn't feasible given all the inconsistencies between tech specs and toy bios, comics, cartoons, etc.

Prowl 2 was a silly way to explain an already convuluted situation by their own making. Ick.

Edit: IIRC, in the 3H Universe comic, Trailbreaker was included in the cast because he was originally planned as an exclusive along with Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, as a repainted X-Brawn. Plans changed and thus Trailbreaker never changed from his G1 form for that reason, and the lagtime it takes to produce comic work.

Sky Shadow

19th January 2012, 02:29 AM

Why was Prowl good enough to get a sequel?

I don't know, but I found it hilarious when he actually got released under that name that as a toy:

http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/727/836a.jpg

GoktimusPrime

19th January 2012, 09:48 AM

This kinda raises other Questions though Goki - Optimus and Megatron chose to undergo the Upgrade...Bat/croc. So with this in mind this follows what continuity? Comics I guess? - certainly not the movie /toons verse otherwise this just denies Galvatrons/Rodimus P existence.
G2 comics perhaps? coz at the t end the Autobots and Decpticons were allies then... would it have continued on to the Pax Cybertronia? and if so... why then is there a message in a bottle from G1 megs to "carry on" the fight if he himself chose to be upgraded in the time of Pax?
Remember that Beast Wars never followed on from any one G1 continuity, but rather fits into the overall G1 continuity-family. This is really because Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward knew almost nothing about Transformers when they were employed to write the show and they went and looked at various different sources and implemented them into the world of Beast Wars. Some elements of BW draws from the G1 cartoon (e.g. Starscream's ghost and how he became a ghost), the Marvel comics (e.g. Covenant of Primus, the intended and now　retconned connection between the Vok and the Swarm etc.), the tech specs (e.g. Ravage's appearance and portrayal in BW was based on his G1 tech specs profile) etc etc.

Vector Sigma (G1 cartoon) also exists in BW and BM, but in BW it behaves like Primus (even to the point that Unicron perceives it as a divine rival); yet in BM we see that they still have the Key to Vector Sigma, which apparently is a program and not just a physical key (as the original key was destroyed by Silverbolt). We see images of the Golden Age and the Hate Plague which also comes from the G1 cartoon, but yet Cybertron still has a moon which contradicts the G1 cartoon.

Why was Prowl good enough to get a sequel?
Cos he's that awesome.

He's kinda mashed everything into one, which IMO, just isn't feasible given all the inconsistencies between tech specs and toy bios, comics, cartoons, etc.
That's how Beast Wars was written - see comments above. It's best to think of Beast Wars as fitting into the G1 continuity family rather than into any single continuity.

Prowl 2 was a silly way to explain an already convuluted situation by their own making. Ick.
That wasn't Mainframe's fault ... blame Kaneda Masumi/Toei. But then again, it was an understandable mistake. Remember that Transformers The Movie didn't come out in Japan until much later, so at the time they wrote The Headmasters TFTM wasn't available to the Japanese market... so it's understandable that they didn't realise that Prowl had been killed in TFTM and thus inserted him into the Headmasters. Now of course, since TFTM came out in the JP market　it's created a continuity headache which Binaltech has since retconned with the character of Prowl II (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Prowl_II).

Verno

19th January 2012, 10:29 AM

Paulbot

19th January 2012, 10:41 AM

Obviously those closest to the heartbeats of the Autobot/Decepticon Wars would largely remain involved in some sort of Military, Political or Advisory role with the new Maximal/Predacon feuds but I'm curious as to what happened to the innocent bystanders, civilians and those who had simply had enough. :cool:

I think it'd be really interesting to see how these "Guzzlers" would assimilate into this new world or maybe even how they didn't fit into it? - How their cultures grew and assimilated or if one simply gave way to the other? :)
(A parallel of sorts to Australia's own Imagrational history in a way :o)

Hey that's a great idea for a comic book series. In fact IDW is publishing a comic book that is pretty much about that, just with less Maximals and Predcaons, starting next week. ;)

Hursticon

19th January 2012, 03:59 PM

Hey that's a great idea for a comic book series. In fact IDW is publishing a comic book that is pretty much about that, just with less Maximals and Predcaons, starting next week. ;)

Just to quickly jump this train's lines for a sec :p, which one is it? - Autocracy or one of the new Ongoings?
(I find it hard to keep up with all the new media, trying to stay abreast of what has already been produced is hard enough :o)

Paulbot

19th January 2012, 04:06 PM

Just to quickly jump this train's lines for a sec :p, which one is it? - Autocracy or one of the new Ongoings?
(I find it hard to keep up with all the new media, trying to stay abreast of what has already been produced is hard enough :o)

The other new ongoing: "Robots In Disguise".

And now back to Beast Wars...

Verno

19th January 2012, 04:18 PM

What about: How are Cybertronians paying off the damage caused to Earth during the War?

Or a big one: Where do Spark come from?

Hursticon

19th January 2012, 04:31 PM

What about: How are Cybertronians paying off the damage caused to Earth during the War?

Hasn't Earth been destroyed though?; or are we talking immediately after the end of the Autobot/Decepticon conflict/s?

Or a big one: Where do Spark come from?

My mind is still a pile of mush after trying to tackle that subject, annoyingly I just don't know enough about Biology of species to be able to suggest a possibly credible explanation. :o:p

Verno

19th January 2012, 04:49 PM

Paulbot

19th January 2012, 05:08 PM

I think it's just 'off limits' in BW times according to canon, with it's location kept secret. But I blew it up in Vernoverse. No more fleshlings ruining TF stories!

As for Spark, yeah, if a Prime controls the Matrix, who is an Autobot, how can new Decepticons come online?! It needs a definitive answer once and for all! Not some conglomeration of every different continuities theory smudged together and passed off as a working model.

You're approaching the question of nuture vs nature. Does a Transformer come online evil or does it become evil? And does being a Decepticon mean evil or is it a different philisophy (yes there are Decepticons that do evil things, but does not caring about a race of hairless monkeys on a pathetic mudball when your home is dying and needs energy... make you evil?). All the new Transformers the AllSpark creates in the movieverse are bad, so perhaps that's the natural state and the Autobots are unnatural.

Beast Wars was more explicit than most other series on this, since all the newborn characters were 'Maximals' unless reprogrammed as 'Predacons' (Blackarachnia) or dominated by agressive animal instincts (Inferno, Quickstrike).

Both G1 cartoon and comic showed us explicity how new Decepticons came to be, both involved stealing the Matrix/Vector Sigma power.

The bigger unsolved question is how did any new Transformers come online during the 4 million years the Ark was lost? (Cartoon: none did, Comic: G2 budding? The Matrix Flame?)

Verno

19th January 2012, 05:22 PM

Beast Wars was more explicit than most other series on this, since all the newborn characters were 'Maximals' unless reprogrammed as 'Predacons' (Blackarachnia) or dominated by agressive animal instincts (Inferno, Quickstrike).

I can't comment on the G1 stuff but I do enjoy reading your responses.

As for all new arrivals in BW being Maximals, I can't bite at that at all. No one would choose to be a Predacon on Cybertron after the Great War, because they were treated as 2nd class citizens. They would have to be created as Preds right from the off. I've got nothing to back up my theory from canon, but I could theorise on the subject until the cows either come home or transform :p

It all comes down to programming. A Spark when it comes minty fresh from the AllSpark the first time would have no personality and such, and is in essence a blank, all it does is power the body it enters. If it enters a body designed as a Predacon it takes on those programmed personality traits. If it enters a maximals', the same thing.

If you apply that to the instances of this kind of thing happening in G1, how else could a new troop coming online be guaranteed to be an Autobot or Decepticon? The Decepticons go to all that trouble to steal the Matrix to bring new troops online, they build a powerful body, and when it starts up - its an Autobot?! That wouldn't work at all. It has to be programmed.

Hursticon

19th January 2012, 07:32 PM

If you apply that to the instances of this kind of thing happening in G1, how else could a new troop coming online be guaranteed to be an Autobot or Decepticon? The Decepticons go to all that trouble to steal the Matrix to bring new troops online, they build a powerful body, and when it starts up - its an Autobot?! That wouldn't work at all. It has to be programmed.

Ah but you see, I don't believe it's purely down to programming at all. :)

IMO, I believe that all Sparks are predominantly neutral but obviously have their own feelings towards things, now, throw in a shell program of either Maximal/Predacon or Autobot/Decepticon manufacture and you've got yourself a far more influenced entity towards your specific cause. :cool:

I believe that all Sparks are created equal until they are influenced; there are some on the Predacon/Decepticon sides who really have a more Maximal/Autobot leaning (Or vice-versa) when it comes to outlooks, mannerisms and actions but they choose to remain on that particular side purely out of choice, for whatever reason. ;)

I dunno, I think I just don't like the idea of Sparks being created on one side or the other, from inception, as it seems far too limiting to me on both a character's personality & narrative standpoint; I like the idea of a character that has spent time on both sides of the fence (Physically or Metaphorically) and through their own experiences decide which allegiance they prefer, but invoke aspects of the opposite where necessary. :D

Sky Shadow

19th January 2012, 08:00 PM

And does being a Decepticon mean evil or is it a different philisophy (yes there are Decepticons that do evil things, but does not caring about a race of hairless monkeys on a pathetic mudball when your home is dying and needs energy... make you evil?).

Certainly the Decepticons are less evil than we humans are from that perspective. We imprison, eat and kill cows for food and clothing, and yet we are 80% genetically similar to them. It's understandable that Decepticons should have few qualms about doing the equivalent or less to humans.

GoktimusPrime

19th January 2012, 08:09 PM

You've got to watch yourself there, Gok. You should be give a heads up as to which BW continuity your referencing. For example, there is absolutely no evidence of Optimus Primal having a Matrix in the US cartoon. Absolutely none.
The Japanese series were explicitly intended to fit in the same continuity as the Canadian series in an "expanded universe" kind of way, much like the BotCon BW comics too. There's nothing in the Canadian series that contradicts Optimus Primal possessing a Matrix, so considering that the Japanese series are official canon and they are officially intended to be in the same continuity as the Canadian series, unless something from the Canadian series explicitly contradicts it then it can be accepted as canon.

What about: How are Cybertronians paying off the damage caused to Earth during the War?
Since Earth is strictly off limits during the Beast Era one would assume that any debts were either already repaid by the time the Beast era came in, or they just didn't bother (as often happens in war torn places)

Or a big one: Where do Spark come from?
The AllSpark. Rhinox explains it in Season 1.

No one would choose to be a Predacon on Cybertron after the Great War, because they were treated as 2nd class citizens. They would have to be created as Preds right from the off. I've got nothing to back up my theory from canon, but I could theorise on the subject until the cows either come home or transform :p
Transformers are pretty much Maximal or Predacon by "birthright". Transformers that are descendant from Autobots are Maximals and those descendant from Decepticons are Predacons. Since the Autobots won the Great War, their Maximal descendants prosper while the Decepticons' Predacon descendants experience marginalisation.

This has been explained several times in the Canadian BW cartoon, and of course Megatron nearly made the Maximals unexist by attempting to kill Optimus Prime while he slumbered in the Ark. Tarantulas - who said that he and the Tripredacus Council were not descendant from Autobot or Decepticon (i.e. Unicron's Spawn) - once attempted to destroy the Ark and kill all of the Autobot and Decepticon ancestors lying in stasis within it. This would have ultimately cancelled out the existence of all of "Primus' children" (thus removing a potential threat for Unicron).

If you apply that to the instances of this kind of thing happening in G1, how else could a new troop coming online be guaranteed to be an Autobot or Decepticon?
Hmm... this is debatable. There's some evidence in G1 that suggests that being an Autobot or Decepticon is a political choice. For example you have Mirage who's an Autobot who isn't fully convinced by the Autobot cause, and Thundercracker who's a Decepticon who isn't fully convinced by the Decepticon cause. You also have unaligned neutral Transformers, like Maccadam whose Old Oilhouse exists in neutral territory. Boltax (guardian of the Underbase) was also neutral, as was Spanner - who was forced to create the Decepticons' Space Bridge.

Then you have some noble Decepticons like Carnivac and later Scorponok/Zarak, as well as evil Autobots like Flame (the scientist, not the Motovator). Even Grimlock went bad when he became a self-imposed King after he was elected as the Autobot's leader... although later on he argued that being good and evil is something that's ingrained amongst Autobots and Decepticons -- that Primus had inadvertantly created two races of robots, not one as he'd intended. Bludgeon also seemed to share this belief. But the majority of evidence seems to indicate that it's a political choice and not something that's "in built".

The Decepticons go to all that trouble to steal the Matrix to bring new troops online, they build a powerful body, and when it starts up - its an Autobot?! That wouldn't work at all. It has to be programmed.
Shockwave once stole the Matrix (or at least the Matrix's energies) by decapitating Optimus Prime's head and trying to force him to instill life into his new Decepticons. Optimus Prime secretly passed the Matrix energy onto Buster Witwicky to try to keep it out of Shockwave's hands. But the Matrix didn't seem to make Autobots or Decepticons per se, it just created Cybertronian life... whether they were aligned to be Autobots or Decepticons may be pre-determined by programming... or in some cases, choice (as with Jetfire, who was created by Shockwave to be a Decepticon but when he was finally given a "Spark" he became an Autobot).

--------------------------------

As for the whole good and evil thing -- morality is subjective. One person's idea of good can be someone else's idea of evil. As Sky Shadow pointed out, humans exploit "lesser" species for their own benefit... the book "Transformers and Philosophy" makes the analogy that if humans found a colony of intelligent and sentient ants that possessed a resource that humans desperately wanted, would we care about the welfare of those ants in obtaining that resource? What if it were intelligent microorganisms?

From a Cybertronian's POV humans are like insects... what does it matter if their race or planet is adversely affected for the benefit of the Transformers race and/or Cybertron? As Sentinel Prime said in DotM, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few... so clearly enslaving a few billion "ants" is an acceptable consequence for saving a "godlike" species like Cybertronians. Optimus Prime's insistence on treating humans as equals may feel all warm and fuzzy, but it's a great disservice to his species and world...

Imagine if someone found an island populated by intelligent insects that built their village on top of a MASSIVE oil or gold deposit. At best we might displace these bugs and move them to another island (even if they refused) and then harvest the crap out of their island. At worst, we'd ignore their welfare and probably bug spray the island before moving in with mining/excavation stuff.

Verno

19th January 2012, 08:39 PM

The Japanese series were explicitly intended to fit in the same continuity as the Canadian series in an "expanded universe" kind of way, much like the BotCon BW comics too. There's nothing in the Canadian series that contradicts Optimus Primal possessing a Matrix, so considering that the Japanese series are official canon and they are officially intended to be in the same continuity as the Canadian series, unless something from the Canadian series explicitly contradicts it then it can be accepted as canon.

I'm not disputing it being canon in regards to the japanese stuff, but it's not explicitly stated in the CGI cartoon as fact, and you can't simply recon it to fit. No way in hell is that logical.

The AllSpark. Rhinox explains it in Season 1.

He did no such thing. All he said was "When a Spark comes online there is great joy in the univers" or some such. How do Sparks physically enter this universe? In BW times I'm sure whoever has a Matrix simply doesn't visit the protoform factory every second Thursday of the month and imbibes life into blanks. And if Vector Sigma creates them, how is it monitored so that Preds don't steal all the sparks Nd build up an army? There has never been an answer to this question right from the start of Tfs.

Transformers are pretty much Maximal or Predacon by "birthright". Transformers that are descendant from Autobots are Maximals and those descendant from Decepticons are Predacons. Since the Autobots won the Great War, their Maximal descendants prosper while the Decepticons' Predacon descendants experience marginalisation.

Bunt what does descendant mean in regards to a Transformer? How does Optimus Prime affect the programming of later generations of Transformers? Killing Prime in the Ark would have wiped them from existence, yes, no argument there, but how are Optimus Primal and Rhinox descendant from Optimus Prime?

Sky Shadow

19th January 2012, 08:50 PM

Bunt what does descendant mean in regards to a Transformer? How does Optimus Prime affect the programming of later generations of Transformers? Killing Prime in the Ark would have wiped them from existence, yes, no argument there, but how are Optimus Primal and Rhinox descendant from Optimus Prime?

G2-style budding (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Budding#Budding).

Verno

19th January 2012, 08:58 PM

But the word descendant makes it sound as though there is some kind of lineage. that Optimus Prime is somehow directly related to them. Yet Tfs is devoid of parenting as far as I'm aware.

With budding, programming would be copied, sure, but the spark has to come from the all spark. And budding wouldn't still be used in BW times.

GoktimusPrime

19th January 2012, 09:18 PM

I'm not disputing it being canon in regards to the japanese stuff, but it's not explicitly stated in the CGI cartoon as fact, and you can't simply recon it to fit. No way in hell is that logical.

1. The law of retroactive continuity works precisely by stating that the most recent canonical account is the most correct. For example it's now been retconned that Tigatron and Airazor were previously existing Transformers on Cybertron who were nearly killed and were later reborn on prehistoric Earth but with no conscious memories of their previous lives. Now some people may not like this retcon, but regardless of preference it remains a canonical fact. Likewise Midichlorians in Star Wars.

2. It would only create a logic problem if something from official canon later contradicted the existence of a Matrix in Optimus Primal. For example G1 Prowl's appearance in The Headmasters created an illogical continuity problem - hence why the Story of Binaltech sought to resolve this by retconning that character as Prowl II. Wheeljack's appearance in Victory has still yet to be officially explained though (Wheeljack II? :rolleyes:)

Considering that (a) Optimus Primal's Matrix was seen in an official medium, and (b) there's nothing in the Canadian cartoon that explicitly contradicts this - I think it's logical to assume that it remains a canonical fact (and officially speaking - under the law of retcon - that would indeed be the case).

He did no such thing. All he said was "When a Spark comes online there is great joy in the univers" or some such. How do Sparks physically enter this universe? In BW times I'm sure whoever has a Matrix simply doesn't visit the protoform factory every second Thursday of the month and imbibes life into blanks. And if Vector Sigma creates them, how is it monitored so that Preds don't steal all the sparks Nd build up an army? There has never been an answer to this question right from the start of Tfs.
In Beast Machines the AllSpark is shown to be a kind of astral plane of existence - a kind of afterlife if you will. A place where all Sparks originate from then go on a life-long journey of learning and discovery, then returns to the AllSpark to add its knowledge to the collective. In that sense it's much like the Cosmic Mother Node believed by followers of Vedic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism etc. -- Optimus Primal rejoined the AllSpark when he achieved a kind of enlightened state (Nirvana) which apparently makes you glow white. :p Although the retention of a Spark's individual aspect is more like Zoroastrianism than Hinduism/Buddhism (and indeed many fans tend to compare Transformers theology with Zoroastrianism).

Now precisely how individual Sparks are extracted from the AllSpark plane/dimension... well, that's something that hasn't been explicitly shown or explained in canon AFAIK.

Bunt what does descendant mean in regards to a Transformer? How does Optimus Prime affect the programming of later generations of Transformers? Killing Prime in the Ark would have wiped them from existence, yes, no argument there, but how are Optimus Primal and Rhinox descendant from Optimus Prime?
I've always worked under the assumption that post-war Transformers built by the Autobots were the Maximals and those built by the Decepticons were Predacons... or at least the first generation of Maximals and Predacons. You may have had subsequent generations of Maximals made by Maximals and Predacons made by Predacons.

Put it this way, in the G1 cartoon a group of Autobots led by Optimus Prime built the Aerialbots then got Vector Sigma to give them life. If one were to travel back in time and kill Optimus Prime before he could do this, then the Aerialbots would cease to exist as Optimus Prime would never live to build them. If you killed Ratchet in the Ark then you'd undo the appearance of the Dinobots as it was Ratchet who co-built the Dinobots in the G1 cartoon and also Ratchet who discovered and exacavated the Dinobots from the Savage Land in the G1 comics. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Maximals and Predacons have to have some kind of "genetic link" with the Autobots and Decepticons since the Transformers don't reproduce sexually. Unless you wanna go by the G1 TF Victory manga... <shudder> <facepalm>

But that's just the way I see it... official canon has never exactly specified how or why the Maximals are descendants of Autobots or why Preds are descendants of Decepticons... it's always just been agiven. No matter how it happens, what we do know is that the destruction of the Autobots cancels out the existence of the Maximals (as witnessed in The Agenda Part 3) and likewise destroying the Decepticons would also wipe out the Predacons (as mentioned by Blackarachnia and Tarantulas - it would also explain why BW Megatron went to all the trouble of breaking into the Ark and targeting Optimus Prime for assassination instead of just planting explosives throughout the Ark like Tarantulas did... that and Mainframe were hoping to get Peter Cullen to do a cameo appearance in Ep1 of Season 3 (but Cullen refused due to some voice actor industry thing between American and Canadian voice actors -- Cullen wanted to protect the US voice actor industry (despite Cullen's Canadian heritage))

So the exact nature of the AllSpark and precisely how the Maximals and Preds are descendants of the Autobots and Decepticons is still a fairly blank slate... so go nuts. :)

Sky Shadow

19th January 2012, 09:28 PM

But the word descendant makes it sound as though there is some kind of lineage. that Optimus Prime is somehow directly related to them. Yet Tfs is devoid of parenting as far as I'm aware."

1. That's what budding is. Mindset was a descendant of Onslaught. And Dinoforce had children and Rattrap had a great aunt.

And budding wouldn't still be used in BW times.

2. There's no reason why it can't be the reason for Predacons being descended from Decepticons.

Verno

19th January 2012, 09:50 PM

Verno

19th January 2012, 10:03 PM

One of the big questions is: Who is still alive?

We see Prowl and Ironhide sitting as Maximal Elders, but they both lucked out in the first 10 minutes of TF:TM.

GoktimusPrime

19th January 2012, 10:24 PM

I found this on TF Wiki:

Transformers Legends

This takes place after "Other Voices, Part 2", and also after "End of the Line".

Following the explosion of the Planet Buster, Optimus Primal found himself in Maccadam's Old Oil House, where he encountered Optimus Prime, an Optimus Prime from a different universe, and a future version of himself. The four of them were able to overcome the alternate Prime's doubts about his leadership, before they all returned to the time streams from whence they came. Optimus Primal repeated the whole thing again much later, after his destruction facing Megatron in the Council Citadel on Cybertron.

So, this directly contradicts BW II which seems to state that Primal got transported, after death, to help Lio Convoy defeat Zarak. So in this continuity, the subject of Primal's supposed Matrix never comes up, and therefore doesn't have one.
I thought Optimus Primal's appearance in the Beast Wars movie occurs while he was abducted by that Vok probe thing ("Chain of Command"?). Even if it were to occur during his death between Seasons 1 and 2, what's to say that Primal didn't appear in Maccadam's Old Oil House and Gaea at two different points in time? It's apparent that Primal's traversed time and space -- so what might have been a few hours or days on pre-historic Earth may have been weeks, months or years in whatever astral plane Optimus Primal went off to (Inception'd!).

But IIRC Primal appeared on Gaea during his first Vok abduction. I'll recheck that when I get the opportunity later... btw the movie's just called Beast Wars, not Beast Wars Second (although it does involve principally BWII characters, the movie was never actually called BWII).

Basically I'm saying he doesn't have one and have no evidence to say that he doesn't, and you're saying he does but have no evidence to say that he does in the CGI cartoon continuity alone.
The Japanese cartoon continuity is officially tied to the Canadian cartoon continuity and it states that Primal has a Matrix. I mean, if you solely want to look at the Canadian cartoon continuity in isolation then just say so... if you're going to talk about Beast Wars in general, then it's reasonable to examine the entire continuity as a whole. But note that if you're going to look at the Canadian cartoon continuity in isolation, then we need to disregard a lot of other expanded universe stuff too, such as:
+ Exactly how the Golden Disk was stolen - this becomes a mystery
+ Tigatron and Airazor being pre-existent Maximals prior to arrival on Earth
+ The existence of any G1 Transformers in the Beast era other than Ravage (so Grimlock, Prowl, Prowl II, Silverbolt, Ironhide etc. are all out)
...etc.

The Japanese stuff can go jump as far as I'm concerned.
How objective of you... :rolleyes:

Gathering and Ascending make it defunct anyway.
The IDW comics go off on a different continuity splinter as it ignores a lot more canonical material than just the Japanese animation (e.g. 3H's BotCon/OTFCC comic material).

So we're looking at different continuity streams here - you have the "core" continuity which is the Canadian cartoon. Then you have different streams branching from that core - one comprising of the Canadian cartoon + Japanese animation and BotCon/OTFCC comics... another comprising of the Canadian cartoon + IDW comics.

The former explicitly shows Maximal commanders with Matrices, and the latter doesn't confirm nor deny it, although under Occam's Razor one would presume that until they probably don't exist. So if you wanna go by this continuity stream, then fine, I would concede that probably none of the Maximal commanders have Matrices in that universe.

Sky Shadow

19th January 2012, 10:31 PM

We see Prowl and Ironhide sitting as Maximal Elders, but they both lucked out in the first 10 minutes of TF:TM.

Isn't what happens to them in Transformers: The Movie the opposite of "lucked out"?* Grimlock, Silverbolt, Ravage, Laserbeak, Buzzsaw, Arcee, Alpha Trion, Sinnertwin, Razorclaw, Divebomb, Hot Rod, Trailbreaker, Sunstreaker, Sideswipe, Bumblebee, Ratchet, Outback, Chromia, Vector Prime, Devcon, Cyclonus, Quake, Skywarp, Bumblebee, Deathsaurus, Starscream's ghost and High Beam are also still around.

*I just looked it up and apparently "lucked out" can mean both:

(idiomatic) To experience great luck; to be extremely fortunate or lucky.
(idiomatic, UK) To have run out of luck.

:confused: Well that renders it a completely useless phrase then...

liegeprime

20th January 2012, 12:40 AM

Following all these continuities is giving me a headache:o:o I can't keep up which versions are being mentioned, comics, cartoons etc etc.... I think Im just gonna steer clear for now until I get a few more questiones again to clear up:p

Oh SS: hehehe Starscream's ghost ... still around hehehhe I don't think that one's gonna go away at all heheheheh

griffin

20th January 2012, 01:45 AM

Before this descends into debating the many contradictions that is the Transformers Universe we all know and love :p - I thought this was a topic for questions for Verno to resolve in his stories, not for people to post their own answers or opinions to the questions being asked... unless of course, Verno wanted submissions to help him fill his remaining plot holes.

Verno

20th January 2012, 10:16 AM

I'm happy to discuss the plot points, but as long as we don't end up going around in circles due to opinions rather than fact.

The Japanese cartoon continuity is officially tied to the Canadian cartoon continuity and it states that Primal has a Matrix.

I'm interested as to how you think it's officially tied Gok? The relationship is one sided. BW movie or II or whatever depends on the CGI tv show, but the CGI tv show doesn't depend on the Movie II thing. It is a stand alone continuity that has had things applied to it in retrospect, sometimes poorly. Optimus Primal being used in the capacity he was in the Japanese stuff is one of those poor applications, as it makes stuff up out of nowhere.

Optimus Primal is a first time commander of a Maximal exploration ship, not a Supreme Maximal Commander with an Energon matrix in his chest.

Verno

20th January 2012, 10:27 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8NWAzNBzQ

Go to 3:07 and watch. I can't see an Energon Matrix in Primal's chest. Does that not count as evidence?

GoktimusPrime

20th January 2012, 10:35 AM

I'm interested as to how you think it's officially tied Gok? The relationship is one sided. BW movie or II or whatever depends on the CGI tv show, but the CGI tv show doesn't depend on the Movie II thing. It is a stand alone continuity that has had things applied to it in retrospect, sometimes poorly. Optimus Primal being used in the capacity he was in the Japanese stuff is one of those poor applications, as it makes stuff up out of nowhere.
Yeah dude... that's how expanded universe works. Like Boba Fett punching his way out of the Sarlacc :rolleyes: So stupid... but it's official canon!

I never said any of this was good canon -- good or bad is a matter of opinion, and as you said it's better to discuss facts rather than opinions otherwise we'd end up going in circles. The canonical fact is that the Japanese BW canon is intended to be part of the Canadian cartoon continuity much like in an expanded universe capacity. Same with the Marvel UK comics - Simon Furman wrote them as an expansion of what Bob Budiansky was writing for Marvel US. Marvel tried to separate these two worlds by establishing Earth-91274 and Earth-120185; Earth-91274 is where ONLY the events of the Marvel US comics occur and supposedly none of the expansive material of the Marvel UK comics happens, and Earth-120185 is where everything in the Marvel US and UK comics occurs. Problem with this of course is when Simon Furman took over from Bob Budiansky in writing the US comics and started tying in Earth-91274 continuity with events from Earth-120185. For instance, the entire Matrix Quest and subsequent stories after that could NOT have occured if not for the Autobots having blasted Optimus Prime's old body off into space in a funeral barge and the whole Deathbringer story -- events which had only occured in Earth-120185! So I guess it meant that Earth-91274 was retconned as being "everything that happened in the US comics plus some stuff that happened in the UK comics that ties back in with the US comics." :p

As I said, you can look at BW in a similar way - different continuity streams. Let's call them Stream A, Stream B and Stream C just for convenience sake.
Stream A: Only the events of the Canadian CGI cartoon occured. Everything else is ignored.
Stream B: Only the events of the Canadian cartoon, Japanese anime and 3H BotCon/OTFCC comics occured.
Stream C: Only the events of the Canadian cartoon and the IDW comics occured.

So in Stream B we can conclude that Optimus Primal possessed a Matrix, whereas in Streams A and C he probably did not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G8NWAzNBzQ

Go to 3:07 and watch. I can't see an Energon Matrix in Primal's chest. Does that not count as evidence?
Sorry, I have to get ready to go to Tokyo, so I don't have time watch that... but remember that in G1 Season 1 we saw the inside of Optimus Prime's chest and there was NO Matrix and not even the housing component for it. Yet in Transformers The Movie, there it was. In the early G1 comics the Matrix was an intangible program housed in Optimus Prime's brain (which was transferred to Buster Witwicky's brain and later back to Optimus Prime) - yet later on it became a physical object inside Prime's chest like we saw in the movie.

Also, Primal's Matrix is kinda "deep" (ish) and had to come out IIRC

Verno

20th January 2012, 09:05 PM

I'd love to hear people's theories as to when exactly G1 Megs got his hands on the Voyager disk and made the encrypted message.

griffin

21st January 2012, 01:15 AM

I'm not sure how it played out chronologically, but I thought there was an image of it in the BW episode of the Voyager probe passing one of our gas giants at the time Megatron inscribed his message. I'm Just not sure if the writers/animators worked it out or just guessed as to where the Voyager probe would actually be during the Generation 1 cartoon, or at least while Megatron was alive & kicking (1984-2005).

GoktimusPrime

21st January 2012, 01:27 AM

Considering that it was Megatron in his original G1 Earth form... it'd be sometime between 1984-2005, since after 2005 he became Galvatron.

Verno

21st January 2012, 09:16 AM

GoktimusPrime

21st January 2012, 09:53 AM

So when G1 Megs says "but I know that TransWarp technology is being developed" in the messsage, was he just guessing, or was he paranoid? Or we're the Autobots really working on it that early?
Do we know that Transwarp was necessarily Autobot tech? Spacebridge technology was Decepticon tech in the G1 cartoon and developed by a neutral unaligned Transformer in the G1 comics (who became enslaved by Decepticons and thus the tech fell into their hands).

It's possible that Cybertronians were looking at improving Space Bridge technology into Transwarp Drives... thus allowing individual ships to jump through self-generated worm holes rather than having to rely on a kind of gate like the Space Bridge. The theory for transwarp drive probably existed long before it could be made into reality because often you have to wait for technology to catch up. :) It often happens here on Earth with science and technology, why not on Cybertron? Look at Leonardo Da Vinci... heck, the Indian scholar Pingara developed a system of binary numerals (11000010101110100111) around the 5th-2nd centuries B.C.E. -- long, long, long before the advent of modern computers today!

Didn't he get his grey gun mode back at some point and Galvatron became a force unto himself?
In the Anglophone cartoon continuity - never. In the Japanese cartoon continuity - umm... he became Super Megatron and Ultra Megatron but they both look substantially different from his original Megatron form which is what we see in the Golden Disk recording.

In the G1 comics the events of Transformers The Movie never occured in the main continuity proper, rather in alternate future continuities - which where Galvatron and Galvatron II came from. But neither of them reverted back to being Megatron (Galvatron was sent back to his original time stream and Galvatron II was buried under ice after a pretty awesome fight with Fortress Maximus ;)). Megatron lost his original gun form in 1993 when he elicited COBRA to rebuild him as Generation 2 tank Megatron... although we're gonna see a continuity split from this later this year when IDW releases their G1 #81 which will continue from where the G1 comics ended and looks set to ignore G2.

But as it stands now, in the Marvel comics the last time we saw Megatron in his original gun form was in 1993 and the last time it was seen in the cartoon continuity was in 2005. So no later than 2005.

griffin

23rd January 2012, 01:50 PM

Verno

23rd January 2012, 04:34 PM

Will you also be looking at explaining why the Vok disk is so similar to the Human disk, Verno?
Or is it just a common storage medium/device civilisations use throughout the galaxy, kinda like Windows being common here.
Bob & Larry never explained why they were so similar, and there had to be a reason... as they were both written into the cartoon by Bob (Ep 1 & Ep 24), so couldn't have been a plot or animation error. (at least on this rare occasion)

I was going to concentrate on getting Cybertron's affairs in order before tackling loose ends like the Vok disk, but seeing as though the Vok are so pivotal in my post-BW fiction, I guess I should look a little harder at the issue.

If Bob and Larry still had notebooks lying around from their BW writing days, I would love to bury myself in them, but I'm sure I'm not alone there.

So I guess the answer to your question Griff is Yes.

Verno

23rd January 2012, 06:42 PM

Alright, the solution is coming along nicely Griff, but I'm just sorting out a few details. A hint though - there are 4 disks...

One more thought on Megatron and his gun mode however - I'm not sure what continuity ties into Furman's unofficial Alignment story (I assume it's the Marvel stuff) but Megatron dies in the battle at the Hub. Megatron, not Galvatron. So Megatron is back, and if so, in what form would he have been in when he died? Surely not the G2 green tank thing.

I realise Alignment isn't Canon, but the stories leading up to it (with the Liege Maximo and the Cybertronian Empire) are, so we have something to work with and draw conclusions from.

Sky Shadow

23rd January 2012, 08:14 PM

One more thought on Megatron and his gun mode however - I'm not sure what continuity ties into Furman's unofficial Alignment story (I assume it's the Marvel stuff) but Megatron dies in the battle at the Hub. Megatron, not Galvatron. So Megatron is back, and if so, in what form would he have been in when he died? Surely not the G2 green tank thing.

Megatron looked like this in Alignment:

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9075/megatronnr.png

Verno

24th January 2012, 04:28 PM

Megatron looked like this in Alignment:

*Snip*

Well there is a toy that needs making.

The VernoVerse version of how the Golden Disks came to be can read HERE! (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=12820)

I figured it best to put it in the right section and keep this thread on topic.

Verno

25th January 2012, 11:22 AM

Q: How did Tarantulas have knowledge of the Vok when no one else had ever heard of them?

A: Tarantulas and the Tripredacus Council were members of the Cybertronian Empire who reassimilated back into life on Cybertron after they were reformatted after a run in with Unicron, and the Hub being destroyed by the Autobot/Decepticons alliance. Double-whammy.

However, during his days as a loyal CE troop member, the scout ship he was assigned to (to find planets to be techno-formed into the Hub) discovered a world that also had Vok installations on its surface to test the indigenous life forms. It too was seeded with raw Energon.

They made to take over the planet, but the Vok were notified by one of their traps. The planets' moon opened up and destroyed the planet.

Thus why Tarantulas was so keen to get off Earth when it became evident that Earth was to be destroyed - he'd seen it all before.

So he knew of the aliens, hated them, but didn't find out their names until he met Tigerhawk.

Simple :(

griffin

25th January 2012, 01:02 PM

I took Tarantulas' statement "(we) are from a different origin" to suggest that they weren't Cybertronian at alll... because if they were just reformated cybertronians by Unicron, they would still be affected by any temporal changes on ancient earth... unless you're saying that they were reformatted before the Beast Wars occurred thousands of years ago?
Either way, if they were created by Unicron or just reformatted cybertronians, I'd be guessing that they could have been "uploaded" with what Unicron knows, and he'd be expected to know about just about everything, including the Vok. (which allowed Tarantulas to recognise them, not by his own experience, but through his shared memories from Unicron)

Although, your version makes for a more interesting back story... which is always better for padding out a story with more depth than just the present.

Verno

25th January 2012, 01:29 PM

Yeah, I took the comments about, and made by, Tarantulas during the BW at face value. 1. That he and the Tripredacus boys wouldn't be affected by the Time Storm, and 2. He was Unicron Spawn.

The whole 'Unicron spawn' thing was more than likely Megatrons way of calling someone a son of a b!+c#, but I always liked the idea of linking him in somewhere.

The idea of non-Cybertronian entities in Cybertronian bodies is an intriguing one, especially when said figures gain control over one of the factions, but I personally felt that Tarantulas's origins were on Cybertron, albeit it several millions years ago, long before Prime left on the Ark, thus why he wouldn't be affected by the time storm. A gamble, for sure, as who could really know the full extent of the time storms damage, but Tarantulas was pretty confident about the whole thing, so I have to trust he knew what he was talking about.

Again time travel rears its ugly head as a means of confusing everyone, but if I could draw you a map of the events, or even better, a timeline, it would show that it all works, I think.

GoktimusPrime

26th January 2012, 12:20 PM

I suspect that Tarantulas didn't already have prior knowledge of the Vok, because he seemed to also regard them as a 'mysterious' alien species and indeed simply referred to them as "aliens" along with the other Transformers... and later mocked the Vok's name when he learnt of it from Tigerhawk ("such a simple name for so arrogant a race").

Unicron isn't one to usually go and share everything he knows with his minions... unless you're name is Megatron, then he'll happily tell you that the Matrix is his only weakness. :rolleyes: :p

Tarantulas has been studying the Vok for a long time independently in his lair - and for a long time we saw that Tarantulas had his own plans for the Vok... which we saw come to fruition when he extracted the Vok influence from Tigerhawk -- absorbing Tigerhawk's Vok into himself (which later ressurected him in a blasphemous state of undeath).

Verno

26th January 2012, 08:29 PM

His comment of "They'll come, they always come..." would suggest otherwise, Gok. To me that says he's had a previous run in with them in which they arrived and wiped the floor clear of anything and everything. An encounter per-BW.

Verno

27th January 2012, 04:55 PM

Oh, and here's a little something from the Beast Wars Sourcebook in regards to Optimus Primal:

Originally just one of dozens of starship captains in the Maximal fleet, Optimus Primal's true calling was destined to be far more significant than merely trawling deep space exploration lanes. ... Thrust into the role of a military leader, he proved time and time again that he was an effective warrior who also possessed great compassion, loyalty, honor and even a wry sense of humor. - page 3, BW Sourcebook 3.

So there you have it: In the CGI show, Primal was just an exploration ship Captain and NOT the Matrix-wielding, Convoy Council sitting, Cybertronian hero that the Japanese movie portrayed him to be. Whoever the Optimus Primal was in the Japanese movie, he is a different Optimus Primal from a separate continuity. The Japanese creators may have set out to try and link it to the CGi show, but they didn't, they created their own continuity.

Ode to a Grasshopper

27th January 2012, 10:25 PM

Oh, and here's a little something from the Beast Wars Sourcebook in regards to Optimus Primal:

- page 3, BW Sourcebook 3.

So there you have it: In the CGI show, Primal was just an exploration ship Captain and NOT the Matrix-wielding, Convoy Council sitting, Cybertronian hero that the Japanese movie portrayed him to be. Whoever the Optimus Primal was in the Japanese movie, he is a different Optimus Primal from a separate continuity. The Japanese creators may have set out to try and link it to the CGi show, but they didn't, they created their own continuity.Dude, you can't win this one. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Canon#Canon_in_Transformers) HasTak are corporate whor...companies of negotiable storyline integrity (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys). I admire your passion my friend, but the official storylines are HasTak's baby/ies and they can and do rewrite them as they see fit - that's why they're usually clumsy Retcons.
Just don't worry about the official stuff and try to make the Vernoverse (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Personal_canon) as awesome and well-suited to what you want as you can. Take the bits you like and ignore what you don't - they're your toys and you can give them whatever backstory you like.

For example, in the Odieverse the origins of Tarantulas and the TriPredacus Council lie with the Insecticons (hence why destroying the Ark wouldn't have destroyed them, and also explaining Tarantulas' penchant for eating other mechanoids), with their mistaken belief of being descendants of Unicron being a mistake caused by their thinking they were the descendents of the Sweeps. Unfortunately for them they only find this out after they've awoken their 'ancestor', who informs them of their true origins as he's draining their Spark energy to revive his Spark and create a new, smaller body (United Unicron) from the remains of his old head.
Not Canon, but it works and makes more sense than most of the official continuities out there, especially when coupled with the rest of the Odieverse fanon.

GoktimusPrime

28th January 2012, 12:15 AM

Verno

28th January 2012, 09:29 AM

theheretic

28th January 2012, 11:03 AM

I think it would be best if we pretended beast wars never happened :-P

GoktimusPrime

28th January 2012, 01:06 PM

From TFWiki:

The Energon Matrix (エネルゴンマトリクス Enerugon Matorikusu) is a powerful device awarded only to high-ranking members of the Autobot or Maximal army, most often of Convoy rank.

Optimus Primal is just an exploration ship captain, one of many. He is not a high ranking member of the army.
Remember that TFwiki itself isn't a canonical source of information - it's a fan-run wiki that shamelessly presents information with bias. I cannot think of any actual canonical source that backs that claim from TFwiki. As for "Convoy" rank, Optimus Primal holds a "Convoy" rank since he was actually called "Convoy" in the Japanese dub of Beast Wars anyway.

I am drawing on several sources to paint a picture of the CGI universe Optimus Primal, and that picture simply has no matrix in it whatsoever.
Nor does it state that he doesn't. You need to present direct canonical evidence that explicitly and directly contradicts Optimus Primal's possession of a Matrix in order to conclusively dispute or disprove its existence. Simply stating, "But these other sources don't mention it" alone isn't enough. After all, NO G1 source before Beast Wars ever mentioned the term "Spark." G1 dropped hints at Transformers possessing a kind of life energy, known as "life essence" or "Primal essence" in the G1 comics and never explicitly named in the G1 cartoon (which was inconsistent about the nature of TF life anyway). It was only when Beast Wars came along that a Transformer's "soul" was explicitly defined as being a Spark; and thus it became a retconned term for all Transformers life energies across the TF multiverse.

I didn't say that Lio or Big Convoy sat on the Convoy Council, but the Japanese media explicitly states that Primal does. That is a different Optimus from a different and separate continuity.
Really? Could you please cite exactly which episode(s) showed Optimus Primal sitting on the Convoy Council? Because I really don't remember Optimus Primal ever appearing on the Convoy Council at all. (o_O) The Convoy Council was headed by Great Convoy, who commanded the Maximal Fleet in their counter-offensive against Unicron and was summarily killed along with the rest of the Fleet (and possibly other Convoy Councillors were killed too).

And just because the Sourcebook contradicts other stuff doesn't make it any less official or any less canonical.
I never said that.

Now who's picking and choosing to fit their argument?!
I never said that either.

They are clearly different continuities, and different characters.
Re-read my previous comments about multiple continuity streams. Thank you.

Verno

28th January 2012, 05:53 PM

Beast Wars II manga

Many years ago, before Lio Convoy became "Lio Convoy", Optimus Primal was a sitting member of the Convoy Council and personally awarded him his Energon Matrix and Convoy rank.

Biast as TFWiki may be, it uses canonical information and is as close to a TF encyclopedia as we are ever likely to see. It gives a point in the right direction, if not being 100% accurate, but I hold a lot of stead in it.

GoktimusPrime

28th January 2012, 07:37 PM

I highly recommend that you just cut the middle man and go directly to the original sources yourself. Relying solely on TFwiki simply won't do justice to the level of depth of the answers that you seek. It's kinda like trying to understand a book or movie by only reading summaries printed on the back of the book or DVD/Blu Ray case... nothing really quite beats actually reading and watching the original sources for yourself.

That way you'll have all the information you need and it will be first hand, not second hand (which is never as reliable as obtaining it first hand). You won't need to worry about the personal opinions of anyone else "diluting" the information. I feel that it would be in your own best interest to go and read/watch the source materials yourself if you truly want an in-depth understanding of Transformers lore presented to you without third party bias.

Verno

28th January 2012, 08:12 PM

Nah, I'd rather draw on the vast knowledge of my fellow TransFans for my own ends :p I do appreciate it, Gok, even if we do clash heads.

GoktimusPrime

28th January 2012, 08:34 PM

Nah, I'd rather draw on the vast knowledge of my fellow TransFans for my own ends :p I do appreciate it, Gok, even if we do clash heads.
It just seems like a rather ineffective way to get the information you seek, especially at the depth that you want too. It seems to me that just going to the original sources would give you the information you want faster and more effectively.

The entire G1 cartoon (US and JP) is available on DVD here in Australia thanks to Madman, and a lot of Marvel TF comics have been reprinted by Titan Books, IDW etc. I suggest that you give your local DVD and book stores a visit and see grab yourself some copies. :)

As for the Japanese BW cartoon... I'm not normally one to advocate downloading stuff off the interwebs, but considering that this stuff has never been commercially available here then... well... yeah <wink> <cough> <clears.throat> Oh, look at that time... ;)

Cat

28th January 2012, 09:41 PM

There has to be a happy medium between 'read and watch EVERYTHING and take copious essay-length notes' vs 'Read the TFWiki, check their sources'.

You have to be reasonable. The Wiki does a lot of work to keep its work pure. Is it perfect? No. But it's a damn good resource. Even better when you use it to then verify its information (IE Okay So Ratchet first did this in TF US 9, let's grab that issue out and see).

It's a tough call between canon and fanon at times, and that's when you need to use your own judgement. What sounds most logical to you? What serves your story best?

How important IS this detail? Is it worth obsessing over, to the detriment of your work as a whole?

9 times out of 10, it's just minutae you're stuck on, and you've lost sight of the bigger picture.

Sometimes, it's about knowing what to exclude, NOT what to include.

PS Considering characters in the IDW continuity have used the Wiki, it's technically bullet-proof. :p (Text has been used on a cover before, and I think in an interior once)

GoktimusPrime

28th January 2012, 10:10 PM

TFwiki is fine in terms of giving you a basic and superficial understanding of stuff, but if you want to go into actual detail then I reckon there's no better way than to just access the original source itself.

Even better when you use it to then verify its information (IE Okay So Ratchet first did this in TF US 9, let's grab that issue out and see).
That's not a bad way of doing it. Use the wiki to get a basic understanding, then go access the exact issue or episode from which they're talking about. It would save more time compared to just reading and watching G1 in its entirety... although reading and watching all of G1 is really fun (IMHO :D :)).

Plus there are pit falls if you only research canon in haphazard bits and pieces -- that's what Larry DiTillio and Bob Forward did when they researched G1 and G2 material for Beast Wars... they didn't have the time/inclination to go and read/watch all of G1 and G2, so they accessed G1 and G2 canon in bits and pieces; that's why Beast Wars mixes up some things from G1/G2 continuity and tends to fit in with the overall G1 continuity family rather than any specific G1 canon itself.

One arguably controversial thing that they did as a result of this was the portrayal of the Matrix in "Optimal Situation" - where we see Optimus Primal take the Matrix out of Optimus Prime's chest; and the Matrix is holding Optimus Prime's Spark. Primal then uses the Matrix to put Prime's Spark into himself (which mutates him into Optimal Optimus) and then drops the empty Matrix onto the floor and the Matrix vessel itself shatters! :eek: I gotta tell ya, when that episode first aired, a lot of fans were soiling themselves -- until it was clarified later online what had happened. Forward and DiTillio had only watched bits and pieces of Transformers The Movie -- i.e. up to the scene where Optimus Prime died, and at the time they wrote the script for Optimal Situation, they hadn't seen TFTM much further past that. They saw the scene where a dying Optimus Prime passed the Autobot Matrix of Leadership to Ultra Magnus and then saw Prime die after the Matrix was removed from him -- their conclusion: the Matrix was a holder for Optimus Prime's Spark... and that's the way it was portrayed in "Optimal Situation." Based on what they'd seen it made sense, but had they'd watched more of the G1 cartoon or read more of the comics and realised that the true nature of the Matrix, then they most likely would not have written the scene that way! :D

And I'm not trying to bag out Forward and DiTillio here. I have often said before that I really do admire them for even taking the effort to try and do some research into Transformers when they were writing Beast Wars. They weren't Transformer fans when they were hired as writers and they were completely ignorant of Transformers lore. They took it upon themselves to spend their own time and effort to talk to fans, watch cartoons, read comics and tech specs etc. to try and retro-fit Beast Wars into G1 and G2, and I will always truly admire them for taking that initiative (especially compared to so many TF writers today who just can't be bothered doing that and just give us continuity reboots).

There has to be a happy medium between 'read and watch EVERYTHING and take copious essay-length notes' vs 'Read the TFWiki, check their sources'.
I don't take copious notes. I've just watched and read G1 over and over again more times than I can count... so it's all stuck in my head. :)

It's a tough call between canon and fanon at times, and that's when you need to use your own judgement. What sounds most logical to you? What serves your story best?
Well it all depends on whether or not a fan writer wants to keep their story in-canon or not. Most fan fics are out-of-continuity because writers lack the inclination or whatever to maintain their stories in continuity (or a lot of times, they claim that their stories are in-canon, but they're still riddled with continuity contradictions anyway <sigh>). Others do write their stories in-continuity and actually manage to pull it off well.

It's up to the individual writer if they want to align their fan-story with official canon or just disregard canon and go with their own fanonical universe (in which case you can happily twist or ignore canon to your delight)

Doubledealer

8th March 2012, 11:24 PM

kup

8th March 2012, 11:36 PM

So we know that Bumblebee's have been shelf warming for what seems like an eternity now. So why then are retailers buying a truck load of Prime Bee's?? :confused:

Reminds me of an Einstein quote: Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I think it's because the retailers don't understand the stock they are buying and what is actually selling or shelf warming.

For some reason the retailers seem to only identify Transformers as the 'Bumblebee line' and Hasbro panders to that because for them it sells (Hasbro to retailers). Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

Sky Shadow

9th March 2012, 12:07 AM

So we know that Bumblebee's have been shelf warming for what seems like an eternity now. So why then are retailers buying a truck load of Prime Bee's?? :confused:

Isn't that because once again every single case-assortment is Bumblebee-heavy? (Surely that's Hasbro's failing rather than the retailers'.) The Prime releases certainly have far too many Optimi and Bumblebees in each case. This is particularly a mistake, since they're both sufficiently similar to their movie counterparts that to your average punter they won't even look like new toys, just the same old shelf/pegwarmers in new packaging.

Doubledealer

9th March 2012, 12:16 AM

I think it's because the retailers don't understand the stock they are buying and what is actually selling or shelf warming.

For some reason the retailers seem to only identify Transformers as the 'Bumblebee line' and Hasbro panders to that because for them it sells (Hasbro to retailers). Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

You could well be right Kup!

I'm not sure if this sounds completely bonkers or not but don't you think it would be in Hasbro's best interests to educate these retailers? I can only assume that Hasbro sells a retailer some stock, then the retailer comes back to Hasbro once they've run out (or are running low on stock). If that's the case, wouldn't it be logical for Hasbro to try and convince the retailer to buy what they think will sell the best? Hasbro should know their market a lot better than Kmart (for eg) and it would be win-win for Hasbro, the retailer and the customers. Win-win...Win. :p

Isn't that because once again every single case-assortment is Bumblebee-heavy? (Surely that's Hasbro's failing rather than the retailers'.) The Prime releases certainly have far too many Optimi and Bumblebees in each case. This is particularly a mistake, since they're both sufficiently similar to their movie counterparts that to your average punter they won't even look like new toys, just the same old shelf/pegwarmers in new packaging.

I totes forgot about this! So I guess that's the next question: What is up with Hasbro's case-assortments? If they want the retailer to continue buying new stock from them, that ain't gonna happen if they sell them shelf warmers. Confusing this is!

Quickstrike

9th March 2012, 09:38 PM

Then when the retailers see the peg and shelf warming Bumblebees, they don't see it as a Bumblebees failing to sell but as 'Transformers' failing to sell so they become hesitant on stocking more waves from Hasbro causing the present predicaments.

Are they hesitant to stock more though? I mean, the retailers wanted more Movie stuff (like that Movie Trilogy line) but Hasbro just couldn't get it. I think it's just that they aren't receiving stock to put on the shelves.

kup

9th March 2012, 10:36 PM

Are they hesitant to stock more though? I mean, the retailers wanted more Movie stuff (like that Movie Trilogy line) but Hasbro just couldn't get it. I think it's just that they aren't receiving stock to put on the shelves.

Obviously I don't have any hard evidence so I can only go by my own observation. I believe that the reason why we have so many Bumblebees from Hasbro is because the stores demands them. Possibly due to the incredible sales that the 2007 deluxe Bumblebee had and the huge demand afterwards that they have gotten stock with the notion that Bumblebee is what Transformers is all about. Hasbro basically exploits this by promising Bumblebees everywhere hence why there are so many Bumblebees for each case.

I think that Retailers wanted more movie stuff because they think it's popular and toy wise, they identify movie with Bumblebees and Primes hence all the releases and repaints.

Personally speaking, I don't think they are over Bumblebees and Primes despite the issues with the shelf warming toys from DOTM line. The reason why some waves were cancelled may be simply because the stores were still overwhelmed with the peg/shelf warmers so were reluctant to buy more. However I doubt that they would have learned their lesson and once stock cleared, they would end up demanding the same crap over and over hence the movie trilogy line.

There were some toy types that were release for the different movie lines that remained shelf warmers for months even years but despite this, the stores kept buying the same junk for every movie. To me, this shows that the retailer guy buying the stock from Hasbro is not really well informed of what works and what doesn't.