Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Just a recommendation: Tai Chi's Silk Reeling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDsAzbsyH4) (more instructional video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eltVM5A89lM)).

Regardless of what style you do, I find this exercise to be beneficial for both fighting form and conditioning. Firstly, the movements are said to summarise what the arms do in every single fighting style. Some styles may do it in a more contracted way*, others may do it in a more expanded way**, but it's still fundamentally the same movement. Secondly, by moving the arms (and body) in multiple directions like this - and you can hold hand weights or strap on wrist weights while doing this exercise - it targets all the muscles in your arms and shoulders, and not just one isolated muscle or group of muscles as you would if you were doing say arm curls (which primarily focuses on the biceps).

But either way, I find it useful to practice forms with weights. :) Usually with strap on wrist and ankle weights, but I sometimes practice holding onto hand weights. There's nothing wrong with doing regular weights, but this just saves time - you get to practice your martial arts form and do weights at the same time. :) Also, practising your form slowly with weights on helps IMO. Slow form practice is good because it allows you to focus on your techniques (which you can often miss by moving quickly) and of course, with weights on you feel the burn more as your muscles have to carry the weights as you move through different positions slowly (whereas when you move quickly, momentum does half the work for you). It also helps your posture and balance too (especially when you're slowly extending and retracting your kicks and holding them with ankle weights strapped on) :D

------------------------
*Note that the movement in 0:18 of this Shotokan Karate video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHuk_Gdk_04) is essentially the same as in 0:18 of the first Silk Reeling video link posted above, only more contracted.
**The movements seen in this Aikido demonstration (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrASNrLi7uI) are basically the same as silk reeling, but more expanded - particularly obvious/visible in 1:09

[GoktimusPrime]

Took some photos of Darkmount doing various punches (hand attacks)... as best as the toy's articulation would allow of course. ;)

Uppercut
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_uppercut.jpg

Roundhouse Punch
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_roundhouse.jpg

Straight Punch - knuckles vertical
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_straightpunch.jpg

Straight Punch - knuckles horizontal
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_straightstomach.jpg

Knife hand strike to lower ribs
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_ribchop.jpg

Wrist strike to jaw
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_jawwrist.jpg

Wrist strike to groin
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_groinwrist.jpg

Palm heel strike to groin (usually followed by grab, twist and tear)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/darkmount_punch_groinpalm.jpg

[Bartrim]

Karates starts back tomorrow but I'm out for up to 4 weeks:(

[GoktimusPrime]

That sucks dude. :( Hope you get well soon. Perhaps you can use this time to do some reading? Unfortunately finding good literature about martial arts (especially in English) is really hard to find. A lot of books and most magazine articles in print are just a waste of time and money... unless you just stand in the Newsagent aisle and read without buying (but I think some martial arts magazines are wrapping their mags now :().

One book I'd recommend is "The Sword Polisher's Record: The Way of Kung-Fu" (http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Polishers-Record-Kung-Fu-Martial/dp/0804831386) by Adam Hsu (http://www.adamhsu.com/) - it's a collection of his best essays. While it's written from a Kung Fu POV, almost everything in the book can also be applied to Karate too. The only section that wouldn't be relevant would be when Hsu talks about the myths of Shaolin. There's a section about separating the myths of Northern Vs Southern Kung Fu which I guess would only interest you if you're interested in the wider ancestry of Karate (as Karate is descendent from Southern Kung Fu (Fujian Kung Fu to be more precise)). Otherwise I'd say the majority of what the book talks about is relevant to Karate too. :)

If you'd like a more light-hearted entertaining read, maybe try Angry White Pyjamas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas) by Robert Twigger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Twigger) - it's an autobiographical account about Twigger's time living in Japan where he studied Yoshinkan Aikido. :)

Anyway, here are some book reviews:
The Sword Polisher's Record (http://www.plumpub.com/info/Reviews/polisher.htm)
Angry White Pyjamas (http://booksiloved.com/4/Angry_White_Pyjamas.html)

[GoktimusPrime]

Training Rantage

I started attending a new school last September and I've come across an interesting kind of martial artist -- the Forms Collector.

These people love to learn forms for the sake of learning forms and not much else. Every class is entirely focused on teaching and practising forms but NOTHING about how to use them. In other words, there's no training involving the application of techniques.

There's absolutely NO contact training at all. The teacher sometimes tells us the applications for certain moves (which I remain highly skeptical of) but we NEVER have any drills or exercises to practice them. When I say that I'm skeptical of them, I don't mean that I think the moves themselves don't work (otherwise I wouldn't bother learning them), but I don't agree with the explanation that the instructor's providing. But because we never have any 2 person activities, there's no way to 'test' them for ourselves. Everyone just believes the instructor's explanation without question.

For example, we're told that this move (http://www.goldenbambootaichi.com/uploads/4/3/7/3/4373874/6253784.jpg) is meant to be used for breaking your opponent's arm whilst simultaneously kicking them in the shin. (o_O) Btw, the explanations are RARELY given. Most of the time we're taught moves with no explanation given.

It seems that I'm currently training in a school where everyone seems to be the martial arts equivalent of sealed collectors! They have NO interest in ever using their training in self defence so I don't think anyone really cares about how to apply their techniques (hence why nobody ever thinks about it or questions the explanations). Everyone at this school just loves collecting these forms but have no intention to ever use them. Cos I gotta say, most of the people at this school would get royally smashed if they were ever attacked for real. (-_-)

I only just finished learning one form - and I'm still not confident with it, and the instructor already wants to push me along to learn the next more advanced form! And she told me that if I wanted to, I could go ahead and learn the weapons forms! What?? (o_O) I'd rather consolidate my knowledge of the basic form first and master that first before moving onto the next one. Better to be competent in one form than to learn a heap of advanced forms but not know how to use them.

*sigh*

[Bartrim]

Given the ammount of choice you have up there. I'd be switching schools. I really hated KRMAS at first as it is a young westernised martial art. But now I love it because of it's practical applications... that and it's mixed martial arts. Ah the joys of making an arrogant 15year old tap while wishboning his legs.

[GoktimusPrime]

Given the ammount of choice you have up there. I'd be switching schools. I really hated KRMAS at first as it is a young westernised martial art. But now I love it because of it's practical applications... that and it's mixed martial arts. Ah the joys of making an arrogant 15year old tap while wishboning his legs.
Guh, I've looked at 5 different martial arts schools around my area and I found:

+ School A: Observed one class, thought it was rubbish. I know someone who's a black belt at that school and he once told me that 70% of what he learns is BS.
+ School B: Can't seem to make up their mind what style of martial art they're teaching. Tried a lesson, wasn't impressed.
+ School C: Claims to teach traditional martial arts, but in reality their training is more focused on MMA. I actually trained with them for over a year as it was the best school I could find in my area... they did have a few self defence classes which were ordinary, but better than nothing. Their fitness training was quite good actually. This school's since closed down.
+ School D: Participated in 2 classes, not impressed. I've talked to 5FDP about this school too. Everything martial arts "do not" that you can think of, they do.
+ School E: A gym-based school. Completely competition focused. Tried a lesson with a friend who's also a martial artist, neither of us were impressed.

So yeah, this is the 6th martial arts school in my area that I've found. There's another school that's a bit further away that I haven't tried yet, but anyway, the reason why I'm currently sticking with this school is:

1: Their style is similar to what I've already done. If I went to this other school, it's a completely different style and I would have to start from scratch. It may also be counter-intuitive to what I've already learnt, i.e. I may have to "unlearn" my previous training in order to learn a completely different style.

2: No annual membership fees, no uniforms, no belts, no grading. Only have to pay for lessons. I'm guessing they don't have to pay for insurance since nobody ever does freakin' contact training! But having said that, their lesson fees are just as (if not a bit more) expensive than other schools that DO have contact training/sparring (although again, they don't have annual membership fees, which is what schools usually collect to pay for their annual insurance).

The actual forms/techniques their learning are traditional and workable, as I've read and heard a lot about it before. The problem is I don't have, from my perspective, a good teacher in terms of someone who can teach me how to USE the techniques in a fight. What I wanna do after I've learnt the forms is to find someone else who's learnt it and show me how to bloody use them!

But you know what's interesting... because most of the students at the school don't care about using their forms, I find most of them are really sloppy (even the teacher sometimes) and just not as well coordinated as myself and one other student who have done other martial arts before (there's another guy there who has a black belt in Karate and practised it for 20 years). Both myself and this other guy tend to pick things up faster and are able to "predict" how the forms should go. Just last week we were learning a form and the senior student who was teaching us veered off on a weird 45 degree angle off course, and didn't realise he'd done so until much later on when he realised he was facing in the completely wrong direction. Both the Karate guy and I knew what had happened. The head instructor came along to 'troubleshoot' and she had trouble figuring out what happened. The Karate guy spoke up and said that this appears to be a linear form and that several steps back we'd veered off.

Several times before I've recommended that people should use linear reference points (e.g. line on the ground, relation to the walls etc.) as visual guides to their movements during the forms. I mentioned this again, but was duly ignored. (-_-) Although the teacher can see that I'm picking the form up quite well and last week told me that if I keep progressing this way I could become her "star student" and now she's keen to push me along to collect them all! But I'm not interested in collecting forms for collecting's sake... I want to be able to use them.

Anyway, I'm going to decline her offer to learn the weapons forms for now and just focus on learning the unarmed forms... practise it until I'm confident, then find someone to teach me the apps. Then after that, I might consider learning weapons. Cos learning weapons forms is just something you do for fun, it's not gonna be condusive to self defence. And it's more expensive cos you gotta buy the weapons! (and then I might need to acquire permits etc., I once put myself down as a reference when this Karate instructor I knew was applying for a permit for Karate weapons). Getting the Megatron permit was a pain in the rear enough as it was.

[Bartrim]

Had my first lesson back from injury last night and I was allowed to take it easy. We got to do a bit of grappling which was fun and I managed fine. The sensei was kind enough to partner me with a senior student who took it easy on me.

Then there was a problem...

I got partnered with a teenager who started around the same time as me. Not a bad kid but a bit wild and very sloppy. We started to do self defence take downs. The first thing we are taught when taking a partner down in sparring is to control them so they don't hurt themselves. We are also taught break-falls. So anywayI'm the agressor first and while sorting out this kid's technique, he just comes forward and takes me down. Doesn't guide me, no chance to break fall and BANG I pop my shoulder.:mad: I've complained to sensei numerous times about this kids lack of control. One the Sempai's who is a qualified physio got it sorted for me but it's really sore today but it really annoyed me.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm normally not a fan of "guided" throws, but considering that you're still in recovery from injury, modified training such as guided throws makes sense.


I've complained to sensei numerous times about this kids lack of control.
This concerns me. A martial arts teacher has the same legal duty of care as a school teacher. If a student in my sport group kept on behaving in a reckless and potentially dangerous manner, especially if another student had made complaints about it, I would have taken action... and if the student continued to be reckless then I wouldn't allow him to be involved in activities that requires contact with another student.


One the Sempai's who is a qualified physio got it sorted for me but it's really sore today but it really annoyed me.
That's very lucky for your school, cos if you needed to pay for physio out of your own pocket, you could claim against the school (under negligence). (-_-) This sort of thing happens a LOT which is why insurance premiums for martial arts teachers are often increasing, and of course, these costs are passed onto us through more expensive membership and lesson fees. :(

Maybe this kid's not ready to do take-downs and needs to go back to more bare basics? Different people have different levels of coordination and to be blunt, if he's currently too unco to safely train in grappling/wrestling then it may be better for him to hold off for a while.

That's odd... one thing Karate's often known for is spending a LOT of time on the basics before moving onto more advanced techniques.

[Bartrim]

For anyone thinking about taking up martial arts it's not that hard:p

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/NINJA.jpg

[GoktimusPrime]

While studying martial arts is no walk in the park, it's not rocket science either. Most people of average intelligence and physical coordinative skills, with sufficient dedication and training, can become reasonably competent fighters in shorter time than most people imagine.

Anyway, I was taking a morning jog here in jolly ol' China and found this dude practising his Tai Chi on the footpath. Took some happy snaps. I didn't know which exact form he was doing, but I recognised his movements as Chen style Tai Chi. I can't speak Chinese to save my life, but after taking the photos I said to him, "Chen Tai Chi?" And he nodded and said "Chen Tai Chi." I then took out my notepad and wrote down down some Kanji and he wrote down the address of a martial arts supply store which I hope to check out later.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/taichi1.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/taichi2.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/taichi3.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/taichi4.jpg

[GoktimusPrime]

omg... this is so sad...

Here in Guangzhou they have a martial arts themed restaurant chain called "Zhen Kung Fu" (Real Kung Fu)

Links:
Official site: http://www.zkungfu.com/
Review (in English): http://travel.nytimes.com/travel/guides/asia/china/guangzhou/69782/zheng-gong-fu-kung-fu/restaurant-detail.html

The mascot is Bruce Lee. The staff uniform is based on Bruce Lee's outfit from Game of Death (or Beatrix Kiddo from Kill Bill :p).
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/ngsmoov_facepalmconvoy.jpg
Talk about your literal McDojos! :o

I can't help but also shake my head at the extreme irony of a restaurant franchise calling itself "Real Kung Fu" considering that Bruce Lee is more known amongst martial arts circle for having founded the martial art Jeet Kune Do - a martial he created in as a sort of antithesis to Kung Fu. While Bruce Lee's started off practising Kung Fu, he openly criticised Kung Fu of being corrupted by "classical mess" and that was one of the reasons why he created Jeet Kune Do.

The other reason was because Bruce Lee was rejected by the Kung Fu community who:
a. Disapproved of Bruce Lee's standard of Kung Fu (or lack thereof)
b. Were full of racists who disapproved of Bruce Lee teaching Chinese martial arts to non-Chinese people.

So here we have this restaurant called "Real Kung Fu" - yet its mascot is a man who was rejected by the Kung Fu community, and who himself also rejected Kung Fu in favour of his JKD.

Note: This post is NOT intended to start any kind of "Kung Fu vs JKD" argument... merely noting the contradictory irony of this restaurant's name, theme and choice of mascot. Commercialisation to the max!! But as long as they sell their food, I'm sure nobody gives a WHA-TAAAAHH！:p

Another facepalm...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/ngsmoov_facepalmmegatron.jpg

[Bartrim]

We're on break now but the last two weeks I got to spar/partner with one of our Sempais. Normally as I have mentioned before I spar with this teenager who is the same belt as me and of a similar height. This teenager (again as I have prevoiusly mentioned)is incredibly unco and scrappy... usually because he is distracted as he has a crush on a girl who comes to watch her friend in our class. Again as I have mentioned I have complained numerous times to the Sensei about this. But I'm not meant to complain in this post. The past two weeks sparring with the Sempai I have felt my technique improve so much that I've asked him if we can spar on a more regular basis. At the end of our last lesson we had to put on demonstrations in our pairs. Everyone was so slow and scrappy and granted I had the benefit of working with a sempai but when we did our demo and he attacked me at full speed and I responded with equal speed and force not only did it shock the other students but for me it just felt right. It was the first time in 9months that I actually got to practically apply the techniques I've learnt and I can't express how much I enjoyed it.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's great when you can pull your techniques off reflexively without having to "think" about what you're doing. That's when you know you're actually learning. :) And it's always great to train with someone better than you.

That's the rut I'm stuck in... I can't find anyone better than me to train with regularly (not saying that I'm any good, it's just that I can't find any decent people to train with). Most of the other students in my school have NO interest in learning martial arts for self defence... they just do it for health/fitness. There's ONE other student who has a black belt in Karate, but he doesn't seem interested in combative training anymore. :( And my instructor is constantly "correcting" me just for the sake of making my moves more soft and supple (since it's an internal style) -- and that's fine, I have no problem with that, but she doesn't show me what the fight applications for it are. And sometimes when I move in a way that's counter intuitive to fighting (e.g. widening my stance thus exposing my groin more) I seldomly get an explanation for why we do this. The only explanation I finally got was that a wider stance is more stable. True, but it's also more exposed. Nothing wrong a wide stance per se, but you don't want to open it in a way that exposes vulnerable points to your opponent. And my teacher tried to demonstrate this my shoving me from my side - which doesn't make much sense since you wouldn't face an opponent side on in a bow stance (similar to Karate's Zankutsudachi) - but for the sake of argument, let's say my opponent managed to side-step really quickly to my open side and, as my teacher tried to demonstrate, shoved me backwards. When she shoved me, as I started losing my balance I just regained my balance by dropping into a twisted stance. She didn't really have a good answer for that (she just said, "so you can see how your bow stance is unstable)... yeah okay, but I can compensate for that if someone side steps and shoves me. I'd rather compromise a bit of stability for the added advantage of protecting my gonads! Worse case scenario, if I do fall, I could just do a breakfall technique... while being on the ground is NOT a good situation, it's not necessarily the end of the fight - there are ways to fight while on the ground (even if it's not ideal).

Last night I went to a martial arts class here in China. The first one I went to - a Yang Tai Chi class... pretty ordinary. The teacher just stood in front of the class, BACK facing students, then everyone did their forms. Some students did them well, others not so well... I tried to follow along because I'm still a super-noob at Yang Tai Chi... but the teacher never looked at us while we were doing the forms, let alone circulate himself around the class and correct people. (-_-)

Afterwards I went to a nearby Chen Tai Chi class. Some of his students were sloppy, but some of them were also pretty good - particularly this one senior student whom I was told was a national champion. He demonstrated a form to me which looked fairly decent (some of his side stances were a bit sloppy, but overall quite good). I then spoke with the teacher who did basic one-arm push hands with me and seriously showed me some issuing of power using supple moves and small circular motions. Since then my arms have been killing me! (owch!)

And this is one criticism I've had of the school I've been attending since last year back home -- because we hardly EVER do any contact activities, and when we do, nobody seems to issue power... so my body's just gotten soft. Little wonder I've been in pain all day _despite_ having trained regularly since last October. (-_-)

[Bartrim]

Well after four weeks off I went to karate last night. Glad I went too. I was feeling like I was losing interest. This has happened a couple of times and everytime it has all it takes is 10 minutes back into the lesson and I'm back into it.

Lately whenever we've been doing pad work or anything with a partner I've been working with one of the Sempais. Last night was no different. Again I must say how much I prefer working with him, simply for the extra pointers he offers. Where as the other couple were punching the pads in the set combination to the count Sempai Rob would attack me inbetween counts to work on my guard and he also moved around to work on footwork while the others just stood still.

Of course while working one-on-one with a Sempai has it's advantages it also has it's disadvantages. The last thing we did was "happy slaps". This is where you take a kiba-dachi or horse riding stance, place your hands on your head, tense your body and your partner slaps your body for 20seconds. This is an exercise where I would prefer to work with someone who worked abit lighter. I started to buckle at about 8 seconds but managed to hold on for the full 20 count. However once my sensei called time I dropped like a sack of spuds.:o

Then as an added bonus when I went to leave Sempai Robs wife, Sempai Cath stopped me and talked Transformers for about 20 minutes as she is a nerd herself:)

[GoktimusPrime]

Where as the other couple were punching the pads in the set combination to the count Sempai Rob would attack me inbetween counts to work on my guard and he also moved around to work on footwork while the others just stood still.
*thumbs.up* Nice. :) Training to set counts/beats is really a form of rote learning, which has its advantage in terms of just drilling the movements into you, but has the disadvantage of making you just do it automatically to the set count/beat and not spontaneously - which is where random variations in beats, speed, tempo etc. come in real handy. It's also good because the set counting becomes a distraction -- you want to look for the random attack, but moving the the set distracts you from it, then suddenly that random move comes at you! Good stuff. :D

It's funny sometimes when you see other people who don't do that, and they do these drills and start having random conversations... then you work with them and they go, "So how about the weath--" POW! :cool:


Of course while working one-on-one with a Sempai has it's advantages it also has it's disadvantages. The last thing we did was "happy slaps". This is where you take a kiba-dachi or horse riding stance, place your hands on your head, tense your body and your partner slaps your body for 20seconds. This is an exercise where I would prefer to work with someone who worked abit lighter. I started to buckle at about 8 seconds but managed to hold on for the full 20 count. However once my sensei called time I dropped like a sack of spuds.:o
Yeah, you gotta be careful with body conditioning exercises like this. Your sempai shouldn't be slapping you so hard that it hurts like that. The slaps should sting and be rather uncomfortable, but not actually seriously painful. Once it starts really hurting, you need to let your Sempai or Sensei know immediately, and they have to either:
1: decrease the strength of the strikes and/or...
2: stop the activity for you and/or...
3: see how you are and if possible administer first aid

Martial arts teachers have the same legal duty of care just like school teachers. And quite frankly, being beaten up well beyond your pain threshold isn't that beneficial for you anyway -- cos otherwise if it were, you might as well ask Sempai to smash you a couple of times with a sledgehammer to toughen you up.

Like other forms of conditioning, it's gradual, like say doing weights. You don't start off at the extreme end and keep going - you start off small, and as you improve you gradually step up. So in the beginning the slaps should be relatively light, then as your tolerance for the slaps builds your partner can slap you a little bit harder then increase the strength of the slaps as you become more resistant. And this may take weeks or even months to build this kind of tolerance.


Then as an added bonus when I went to leave Sempai Robs wife, Sempai Cath stopped me and talked Transformers for about 20 minutes as she is a nerd herself:)
Caught out! :) Maybe you can convince her to let some students sew Transformer logos onto your gis. ;)

[Bartrim]

*thumbs.up* Nice. :) Training to set counts/beats is really a form of rote learning, which has its advantage in terms of just drilling the movements into you, but has the disadvantage of making you just do it automatically to the set count/beat and not spontaneously - which is where random variations in beats, speed, tempo etc. come in real handy. It's also good because the set counting becomes a distraction -- you want to look for the random attack, but moving the the set distracts you from it, then suddenly that random move comes at you! Good stuff. :D

It's funny sometimes when you see other people who don't do that, and they do these drills and start having random conversations... then you work with them and they go, "So how about the weath--" POW! :cool:

Yeah I liked that not only did Sempai Rob rotate but he also would step forward to try and crowd me... really kept me on my toes.

I've used that to my advantage when I've sparred with partners. I work a 3 count punch to which my opponent blocks. I generally repeat this over and over until I notice they are getting ready to counter straight after my third punch and lower their guard and ... WHAMMY I throw a fourth punch that 9 out of 10 times scores a blow.:cool:

I've also used it when I've had to revert back to my previous partner (the scrappy teenager). He'll start talking so I clip him over the head with a pad.
Chris: " Yeah there's this girl at school..." WHACK"What was that for?!"
Me: "Guard up!"




Yeah, you gotta be careful with body conditioning exercises like this. Your sempai shouldn't be slapping you so hard that it hurts like that. The slaps should sting and be rather uncomfortable, but not actually seriously painful. Once it starts really hurting, you need to let your Sempai or Sensei know immediately, and they have to either:
1: decrease the strength of the strikes and/or...
2: stop the activity for you and/or...
3: see how you are and if possible administer first aid

Martial arts teachers have the same legal duty of care just like school teachers. And quite frankly, being beaten up well beyond your pain threshold isn't that beneficial for you anyway -- cos otherwise if it were, you might as well ask Sempai to smash you a couple of times with a sledgehammer to toughen you up.

Like other forms of conditioning, it's gradual, like say doing weights. You don't start off at the extreme end and keep going - you start off small, and as you improve you gradually step up. So in the beginning the slaps should be relatively light, then as your tolerance for the slaps builds your partner can slap you a little bit harder then increase the strength of the slaps as you become more resistant. And this may take weeks or even months to build this kind of tolerance.


Caught out! :) Maybe you can convince her to let some students sew Transformer logos onto your gis. ;)

It wasn't that bad, it just stung... alot and honestly I'd rather feel a hard punch then the sting of constant slaps.... I hate that feeling:o

I don't know if sensei would go for the TF logos... although he is a bit of a cartoon nerd himself... Everyone that meets him thinks he's walked straight out of a manga cartoon.:p

[Bartrim]

Was gonna go to karate tonight to try and catch up on lessons for grading but cant go as I have a cold:(

[GoktimusPrime]

Continued from Maccadam's Old Oil House (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=47):



The thing is, I wasn't even paying them attention, Just casually playing on my phone. I believe that what ever is going to happen is going to happen, otherwise known as determinism. Not because of god but for reason still unclear to me. With this sort of mindset I don't actually feel fear anymore, at least in the traditional sense. So I always walk around confident. In hindsight this may be what set them off, I wasn't scared of them.

I don't think they thought you weren't scared of them... they may have thought that you didn't care about them -- i.e. observed that you chose to ignore the potential threat that you presented, and thus concluded that you were a viable target. You may not have been presenting fear, but by choosing to completely ignore them and distract yourself with your phone, it basically tells them that you don't care about their presence... that you're not bothered by them when you should be.

Again, remember the predatory behaviour thing. When a predator is stalking its prey, it doesn't necessarily want to scare it before attacking. In fact, animals only attempt to scare another animal if they view that other animal as a threat. If the prey fails to notice or respond to the predator, then that's the opportune time for the predator to pounce. It's like say a lion strolling up to a zebra, and the zebra sees the lion, but then goes "meh" and continues chewing grass or whatever... pays no mind to the lion. What an ideal opportunity for the lion to kill that zebra.

When someone wants to attack someone, before they attack you they're gauging you to see how viable you are as a target. A better way if you notice some seedy people tailing you might be keep a close eye on them and mentally prepare yourself for fight or flight (preferably the latter). In fact, you may want to quicken your pace - and naturally if they quicken theirs to match you, then run. And if your mobile is already in your hand, punch in 112 and get ready to hit that dial button if anything happens. Or heck, call the police already if you're feeling threatened.

Remember that the legal definition of assault is the creation of fear for your welfare/safety, such as the threat of violence. And it doesn't have to be verbal... being stalked alone is already a form of assault (hence why AVOs can be issued against stalkers). You don't need to wait for someone to touch you before you are technically assaulted. And once you are under assault, you are entitled to defend yourself.

Some people have this misconception that they need to wait for someone to swing the first punch, but this isn't true. The moment you feel intimidated for your physical safety, then you're already under assault. For example, if a person raises a fist at you as if they're going to punch you, you can hit them first. Because by raising a fist at you in a violent manner, they've already threatened to hit you. Likewise if a person verbally says, "I'm gonna smash you!" then you can act first because they have assaulted you. Once they touch you then it's assault and battery, but you don't need to wait for someone to commit battery before you enact self defence. You can attempt to defend yourself after the onset of assault, even without battery. With reasonable force of course. ;)

But another advantage of using more passive internal defensive techniques is that they're also easier to legally justify. Putting someone in a restraining/submissive hold means that you've neutralised them, but you're not actually hurting them as you would if you were striking them with punches, kicks etc. And you only need to learn how to dodge and block an attack long enough to make an escape. Furthermore, sometimes when people start a fight, if they see that you know some moves, they may stand down and abandon their attack on you. Because again, going back to the animal mentality - if a predator attacks a prey, but the prey starts putting up a fight, the predator might give up and let that one go.

Learning martial arts is no absolute guarantee for successful self defence, but it increases your chances of survival -- much like how wearing a helmet on a bike or seatbelts in cars are no absolute guarantees, but we know they greatly increase your odds of survival in accidents.

[LordCyrusOmega]

Gret info Gok. When I have some more time on my hands I'll be looking into some of these.
You're right, should have paid them more attention. Going to have to adjust the way I deal with the outside world again, be a little bit more attentive and cautious.

[Bartrim]

We are finally getting our own dojo instead of setting up in the local indoor basketball court.:)

[GoktimusPrime]

I was mucking around with Leader Class Sentinel Prime and did some fighting poses.

Now, my knowledge of armed melee fighting is very limited -- but I once trained with a friend of mine who did European Broad Sword and the first thing that the shield absolutely classified as a weapon and is used to make an initial attack, usually to intercept your opponent's weapon. So step 1 is striking out with the shield while the other hand with the sword is already coming around for the successive strike...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/misc%20photo%20skits/Sentinel%20Prime/sentinelprime_actionpose2.jpg

Because Sentinel Prime has no waist articulation, I've made him step through to deliver the successive sword strike, which one can definitely do if the first strike was good enough. The lead hand with the shield is now down by the side, it should still be smothering/trapping the opponent's sword, then the other arm swings through with the sword, cutting the trapped opponent.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/misc%20photo%20skits/Sentinel%20Prime/sentinelprime_actionpose3.jpg

And just some random pics of kicks -- they look ungainly because Sentinel Prime's so top heavy and has no waist articulation and has fairly poor foot stability, so I had to make do and try to approximate them into these kicks as closely as I could :p

Side kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/misc%20photo%20skits/Sentinel%20Prime/sentinelprime_actionpose5_side.jpg

Crescent kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/misc%20photo%20skits/Sentinel%20Prime/sentinelprime_actionpose6_crescent.jpg

[Bartrim]

We did alot of leg work last night. Side kicks and front kicks after warming up doing gorrilla walks with pushups. Wow my legs are on fire today... but it's a good hurt.

[GoktimusPrime]

You want sore legs? Try doing deep-breathing meditation in your stances. ;) There are some instructors who discipline talkative/distractive students by getting them to face a wall and meditate in a deep Riding Horse Stance. They get wobbly legs after that! :D

[LordCyrusOmega]

Nice shots Gok.
Riding Stance Meditation, that brings back memories. My legs ache just thinking about it, though if I remember correctly my arms hurt more from holding them out then my legs did

[Bartrim]

You want sore legs? Try doing deep-breathing meditation in your stances. ;) There are some instructors who discipline talkative/distractive students by getting them to face a wall and meditate in a deep Riding Horse Stance. They get wobbly legs after that! :D

One our Sensei's discipline techniques is making you take a kabadachi stance but then extending your forearms and balancing a kick pad across them. Thankfully I am a good boy and have never had to do that. They are also quite lenient on the depth of my stance as I suffered that injury to my abductor earlier in the year.

[GoktimusPrime]

One our Sensei's discipline techniques is making you take a kabadachi stance but then extending your forearms and balancing a kick pad across them.
Kibadachi! Now drop and give me 20! :p :p


Thankfully I am a good boy and have never had to do that.
Yeah, but when others are doing it I bet on the inside you're like...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_haha.jpg :D

They are also quite lenient on the depth of my stance as I suffered that injury to my abductor earlier in the year.
That's fairy nuff. :)

[Bartrim]

Kibadachi! Now drop and give me 20! :p :p


Yeah, but when others are doing it I bet on the inside you're like...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_haha.jpg :D



Yeah I do sometimes. Depending on what student it is:D

I didn't mispell I hit the wrong key on the keyboard... because the "a" and "i" keys are... so close together:o

[GoktimusPrime]

Did some sparring today. The tip of my right pinky is bruised and swollen. FML. :(

[Bartrim]

We have a grading next week. So last night they really put us through our paces. 40 pushups, 50 sit ups, 20 squats and 300 forward punches... and that was the warm up. We then worked on reverse punches until my shoulders felt like they were going to drop off. What I do like is that as you advance through your belts, the stricter they get on your technique. The guy I was partnered with was caught using a vertical fist instead of a horizontal fist and had to do 10 knuckle pushups for everytime he punched with a vertical fist. Neeedless to say he only used a vertical fist twice.

[GoktimusPrime]

I personally don't like being corrected on my technique unless someone can demonstrate to me why it's wrong - i.e. it compromises my fighting capacity. For example, my current instructor often tells me that my bow stance (Kibadachi) is too narrow and that I need to stand with my legs further apart, but I keep telling her that it opens my groin making it more of an open target. Her counter argument was that my narrower bow stance is less stable if someone were to push me from the side... but WHY would I stand at bow stance side on to an opponent in the first place?? Even if my opponent managed to hop to my side and push me, I could still drop into something like a Sitting Twisted Stance to catch myself and compensate. In the end, she couldn't supply me with a good reason as to why my bow stance is incorrect other than because it's different from hers. But she still considers my version to be "wrong" and keeps trying to correct me when I do it...

IMO if what you're doing in martial arts works, then how can it be wrong? Even if it doesn't work for you, if it works for someone else, then how can it be wrong (at least for them)?

I use vertical fist for straight punches. I don't think it's necessarily better or worse than using a horizontal fist -- the only marginal advantage of a horizontal fist is the additional 90 degree rotation which would help generate more torsion, but really you can generate a lot more torque from your legs, hips and waist (re: from your stance) anyway.

And I think punitive measures might work for people who are just plain disobedient or recalcitrant -- and if someone's gonna have that kind of attitude, they probably shouldn't be taught martial arts. But for most people who are earnestly trying to learn the technique, I think simply correcting them by explaining to them why they're wrong works better.

One thing I find with some martial artists - and my current instructor is one of these - is that they become more concerned with form over function. Everything has to look exactly right and done by the book; as if it's more important than... ya know, being able to fight. I used to work with a Japanese guy who's a black belt in 3 different martial arts who was exactly like that too -- a complete perfectionist in form, but when we trained together... could he actually use his flawless form in a fight scenario? Nope. And I'm not even an advanced fighter or anything. I've often told people that if I can beat you, then you really aren't that good, because I'm not! :eek:

So I don't like to get too obsessed about form... to me, function matters more. And this is one criticism that some people have about grading and testing -- being able to perform brilliantly in a test doesn't mean you can apply it well IRL. Just look at drivers... we all know that there are plenty of people who pass driving tests and get their drivers licences, but are absolutely terrible drivers on the road.

[SkyWarp91]

You never know Gok, the form of your stance can give off impressions which may intimidate those that try to fight you.

I'm no fighter myself but the second I tense my muscles and put on the mad face and say f off in The Fallen's voice people tend to back off lol

[Bartrim]

You might think it's marginal but we put it in practice and I think there is quite a difference in the power you get from using a horizontal fist over a vertical fist... atleast my partner thought so when he got doubled over:p

[GoktimusPrime]

You never know Gok, the form of your stance can give off impressions which may intimidate those that try to fight you.

I'm no fighter myself but the second I tense my muscles and put on the mad face and say f off in The Fallen's voice people tend to back off lol
That's not what I really meant by your "stance" -- you're talking more about the way you present yourself. And even then, that's pre-fight. The moment the fight is happening then you have to drop all that pretense and get down to the core business of survival. Look at Drunken style Kung Fu for example, I mean the real one, not the rubbish you see in movies. In movies the "drunken" fighter is shown to stumble about like an actual drunkard and appears to be "accidentally" blocking moves and hitting the attacker, but in real life it's nothing like that. A real Drunken style fighter appears drunk _before_ a fight... swaying and staggering about to give the illusion of a drunkard. But as soon as the fight begins, e.g. as soon as contact is made, all that deception is _dropped_ and they just proceed to beat the snot out of you!

It works a lot like being a robot in disguise -- look at Barricade. In alt mode he masquerades as a police car. But the moment he transforms to robot mode, ANY pretense of being a police car just flies out the window, and he just proceeds to get down to business. Likewise certain predatory animals who try to blend into the environment, but when they attack their prey, that deception has stopped.

"No more disguises!" - Megatron (Revenge of the Fallen)

A stance is actually how you stand in a fight, which is the fundamental core part of fighting. I once heard someone quote a Gojuryu Karate Sensei as saying, "If stance is wrong, all Karate wrong." -- and I wholeheartedly agree with that.


You might think it's marginal but we put it in practice and I think there is quite a difference in the power you get from using a horizontal fist over a vertical fist... atleast my partner thought so when he got doubled over:p
Okay, that's fine. So correct the student by demonstrating this and showing him the merits/benefits of the horizontal fist. Maybe have him hold a focus pad and then show him a punch with a vertical fist and let him feel the power of that. Then show him a punch with a horizontal fist and let him feel the power of that and compare for himself. This should allow him to learn for himself the difference between the two techniques.

There are advantages and disadvantages to horizontal and vertical punching. While the horizontal fist does deliver more power because of the additional torque, its drawbacks are:
+ Greater propensity for the wrist to fold on impact
+ Vertical punching allows the user to keep the elbow pointed down, defending the midsection, whereas the horizontal punch naturally causes the forearm to rise and points the elbow away from the body thus creating an opening
+ some people argue that vertical punches anatomically allow the first two knuckles to make contact, whereas horizontal punches present the middle knuckle, but I think this is a pretty minor point because as we all know, as you drive your punch through your target, every knuckle is going to make contact. ;)

Also, traditional Karate uses the vertical punch, known as "Tate-ken" (立て拳; "standing fist"), whereas the horizontal punch or "Yoko-ken" (横拳; "sideways fist") came in later... possibly when Karate was adopted by the Japanese (just a wild guess). Apparently vertical punches feature more predominantly in traditional Okinawan Karate katas - again, another guess... I don't know the exact history of how Karate punches made the shift from vertical punching to horizontal punching.

But in any case, if your style/school favours horizontal punching and that's what you want to teach -- that's fine (I mean, if this student prefers vertical punching then perhaps he should switch to another martial art that uses that)... but from a teaching and learning POV I think it's more beneficial to correct student mistakes through explanation, demonstration and application rather than punishment. It depends on the context though... is the student vertically punching on purpose as an act of defiance? Or is it an honest mistake? If it's an honest mistake, then I don't think punishing him is a good idea... that's like if I give a kid a detention for answering a question incorrectly. If he's intentionally disobeying the instructor, then exclude him from training. You don't need students in the dojo who are just wasting Sensei's time on purpose. (-_-)

[Bartrim]

Grading tonight. Going for my blue belt. Starting to move up in the class now and feeling less like a noob:p

[Bartrim]

Got my blue belt. I'm almost halfway there:)... belt wise. Of course the higher the belt the harder the grading.

[GoktimusPrime]

Congrats! http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/highfive.gif

[Bartrim]

My Sensei came into work for a chat the other day. He asked me if I was interested in double grading at the end of the year. Must be doing somethign right:)

[GoktimusPrime]

It's good to see that he's willing to push you through faster rather than deliberately holding you back as many schools do. Most schools actually grade too slowly IMO. Of course individual skill, and motivation comes into it too - but I've seen dedicated students who train relentlessly, but still take years to get a black belt - and other schools which will let devoted & highly competent students get black belt in a matter of months. But yeah, I'm all for progressing students based on their individual merit rather than some notion that it 'should' take ages to get a black belt. If someone is demonstrating the potential competence to train at black belt level, why not progress them there faster?

Besides... black belt = Beginner level (and 1st Dan = Level 1). Why spend years and years and truckloads of dollars on pre-Beginner level training?? That only makes sense to me if the person has never done any kind of sport before and/or has poor physical and coordination skills. In such cases, then yeah, spending more pre-Beginner training makes sense, but for a person of average physicality and skill, I think a lot of schools just take way too long with students who train regularly. Of course, making them train longer between gradings generates more $$$ for the school. (>_>)

So kudos to your Sensei for pushing you through on your merits. :)

[Bartrim]

Besides... black belt = Beginner level (and 1st Dan = Level 1). Why spend years and years and truckloads of dollars on pre-Beginner level training?? That only makes sense to me if the person has never done any kind of sport before and/or has poor physical and coordination skills. In such cases, then yeah, spending more pre-Beginner training makes sense, but for a person of average physicality and skill, I think a lot of schools just take way too long with students who train regularly. Of course, making them train longer between gradings generates more $$$ for the school. (>_>)

So kudos to your Sensei for pushing you through on your merits. :)

I had a one on one training session with my Sensei and we got to talking about when I could realistically achieve black belt status and I asked him about these definitions and he said although these may be the translation, it doesn't actually relate to our belt rankings as it would seem pretty stupid for a "beginner" to have his own academy.

The one on one session was great. Didn't realize some of the technical mistakes I was making eg: dropping my arm too far to perform an uppercut.

[GoktimusPrime]

I had a one on one training session with my Sensei and we got to talking about when I could realistically achieve black belt status and I asked him about these definitions and he said although these may be the translation, it doesn't actually relate to our belt rankings as it would seem pretty stupid for a "beginner" to have his own academy.
Yet it happens in a lot of schools. There are a LOT of martial art schools that allow even yellow belts to be the chief instructor of Dojos. (-_-)


The one on one session was great. Didn't realize some of the technical mistakes I was making eg: dropping my arm too far to perform an uppercut.
How do you mean by "dropping too far"? Because a dropped-arm uppercut is actually more traditional and practical from a self-defence POV than a raised arm uppercut (which is something used more in competition fighting like modern boxing).

A more traditional uppercut should look like this:
http://www.jowgashaolin.com/artwork/demos/rw_uppercut.jpg <---Shaolin Kung Fu uppercut
Or this (from traditional boxing)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Uppercut2.jpg <---traditional boxing (e.g. Queensberry boxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquess_of_Queensberry_Rules))
The punch is extended more outward with the head held back more. It sacrifices power but it keeps the head, neck and spinal cord protected.

A modern competition uppercut looks more like this:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/pictures/2008/07/27/460MargaritoSamMorrisReuters.jpg <--modern boxing

The arm is raised up more and the head is closer to the punch. The advantage of this version is that it delivers more power to the punch, but compromises defence of the head, neck and spine. People can do this in competition fights because in comps it's illegal to do things like breaking the neck or striking the spinal cord. But of course, in a street fight there are no rules.

The more traditional uppercut is not as powerful as the competition version, but it's a lot safer because it doesn't put your head, neck and spinal cord in potential danger. There are MANY moves across various styles of martial arts that are designed to ensnare the neck and break it, and other moves which are designed to attack the spine (especially strikes to the upper vertebra). e.g.
http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/yxeSIxMXIxg/0.jpg
http://apittman.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/g2.jpg

Example of a spinal attack:
http://www.elite-fighters.com/training/images/domlev5.jpg

While I'm of course not advocating that anyone should ever attack another person's neck or spine, from a self defence POV it's important to keep in mind that these moves do exist and there are people out there who are willing to use them - and as defenders we need to be wary and keep ourselves safe from such dangerous and lethal techniques.

The basic rule of thumb should be that your uppercut is high enough to reach and hit the target (which should be easier for you because you have fairly long arms :)), but at the same time keeping your head and neck out of the opponent's reach.

[Bartrim]

The uppercut technique we are taught is for very close combat. We are taught to drop our stance and roll our shoulder as we step in and up and get the majority of our power from our legs. I know you have your criticisms over ducking/bobbing as you expose your spine but how long do you keep yourself down to allow that to happen? If your opponent throws a cross punch we drop, step in and roll our shoulder, rise up and hit an uppercut. Even with my sensei attacking and me performing the uppercut he didn't have the speed to hit me in the way you described. Dropping your arm too far with an uppercut exposes the side of your head to a hook punch... I learnt this the hard way, thankfully my sensei was only wearing mits.

[GoktimusPrime]

The uppercut technique we are taught is for very close combat. We are taught to drop our stance and roll our shoulder as we step in and up and get the majority of our power from our legs. I know you have your criticisms over ducking/bobbing as you expose your spine but how long do you keep yourself down to allow that to happen?
While I would agree that the technique works if you're fast enough execute the move without the person grabbing you and snapping your neck in the same move, I've been taught to always assume that my attacker is my superior - faster, stronger, better skilled... which makes sense for me since I'm a slow, weak and unskilled fighter. ;) Even if I were strong and fast... there would always be someone out there who's stronger and faster.

Anyway, both the traditional and modern uppercuts have their pros and cons - traditional uppercut is weaker but less exposed, modern uppercut is stronger but more exposed, but as you said, you can compensate for it with speed (especially if you can implement plyometric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics) "explosive ferocious" speed). :) So hey, if it works for you... go for it.


If your opponent throws a cross punch we drop, step in and roll our shoulder, rise up and hit an uppercut. Even with my sensei attacking and me performing the uppercut he didn't have the speed to hit me in the way you described.
Getting cross-punched wasn't my concern. Keep in mind that a lot of grapples are based on intercepting a strike, typically a punch (like an uppercut), then using the incoming force of that strike to ensnare and wrestle/grapple the attacker.

What I'm concerned about is, say you throw an uppercut and let's say your opponent is fast enough to counter or avoid your punch and simultaneously either:
a/ Put you in a headlock, thus in a position to easily snap your neck with little effort.
b/ Grapple you and put you into a submissive position where you're basically bent over, thus exposing your spine. They could even just grab the back of your head and push it down just a bit, thus would expose the back of your neck and upper spinal cord.

...when you're head is so close to your uppercutting arm, you've already done half the work for your opponent should they want to go for your neck or spine. This is why traditional fighting forms don't do it - not even old skool (mid 19th Century) Western Boxing. The modern uppercut is only something that's appeared in the 20th Century with the advent of modern sports boxing.


Dropping your arm too far with an uppercut exposes the side of your head to a hook punch... I learnt this the hard way, thankfully my sensei was only wearing mits.
There's easy ways to compensate for this:
1: Keep your rear hand guarding.
2: Abandon your attack entirely and go defensive or retreat, or if there isn't time for that...
3: You can use your shoulder to block/parry punches! :D

[Bartrim]

I'd like to compare notes with you person at a later date on this subject as I am on my iPhone and couldn't be bothered typing out a lengthy reply.

[GoktimusPrime]

S'cool. Probably easier just to talk about it IRL when we meet up next... it's always so hard to discuss this sort of thing with text only because I can't actually see exactly what you're doing and vice versa. :)

[Bartrim]

S'cool. Probably easier just to talk about it IRL when we meet up next... it's always so hard to discuss this sort of thing with text only because I can't actually see exactly what you're doing and vice versa. :)

Ha Ha yeah thats true. I had a huge argument with a friend on a NRL forum one day then the next time we saw each other IRL we realised we were actually talking about the same thing because of that very reason. It was quite funny and embarrassing:o

[Bartrim]

Yet it happens in a lot of schools. There are a LOT of martial art schools that allow even yellow belts to be the chief instructor of Dojos. (-_-)



Would this be like with GKR? I read on a martial arts forum that they run special instructor courses so they can have lower grades instruct yet still be a black and white belt. and thus open up more dojos.

[GoktimusPrime]

Would this be like with GKR? I read on a martial arts forum that they run special instructor courses so they can have lower grades instruct yet still be a black and white belt. and thus open up more dojos.

Yup. :)

GKR is also:
1) The most popular (most widely practised) martial art in Australia.
2) NOT an authentic Japanese or Okinawan style of Karate, it's Australian. If you go to Japan and mention GKR there, people will be like :confused::confused::confused:

I used to teach at this evening college and there was a GKR class that would started earlier than the evening college, so I would come in and watch the classes while waiting for evening college to commence. The instructor was one of those lower grade black and white belts - although at the time I had no idea what that belt colour meant. The funniest time was when he was sparring or doing drills with a student, and the student knocked him down -- he just fell on his back/bum -- NO attempt at _any_ kind of break fall or recovery technique... and this coming from an instructor that students are paying money to be taught by! :eek:

But I will give GKR credit for one thing: they are very good at teaching the bare basics of martial arts which is especially beneficial to someone who has _never_ done a martial art or any kind of sports or athleticism before (i.e. someone who has crap-house coordination). I find that Karate in general is quite good at building on core basic fundamentals -- but I find that GKR is especially good at it. But having said that, I have never been impressed with anything I've seen in GKR above beginner's level. Basically I would recommend GKR to someone who has problems with motor skills, coordination etc. -- but once they get those basic skills honed, I'm not sure if I'd recommend that they stay with GKR in the long run.

I used to train with this guy who was so badly uncoordinated that well, whenever he sparred he made Jar Jar Binks look like a graceful swan. I think the limit of his coordination skills was like... walking. He was trying to learn Baguazhang (8 Trigrams Palm) Kung Fu -- and he totally lacked the motor coordination to execute even the most basic moves in it... so I recommended GKR to him. I've lost contact with him since, so I have no idea if he took my advice or not.

I have sparred with GKR fighters twice:
+ First time was with a guy who was a relative beginner, and he was quite good - but then again, he also had extensive training in European martial arts prior to doing GKR Karate, so his fight skills weren't purely based on his GKR training. He had me pinned down using his much larger size to his advantage, so I grabbed his pony tail and yanked it - that got him off me pretty quick. ;)
+ Second time was with a black belt - an instructor (although he was a student at a school of a traditional Okinawan Karate style)... I nearly ripped his janglies off... and again, this guy already had Okinawan Karate training on top of his GKR.

...so I've never sparred against a formidable opponent who was purely trained in GKR. And I'll be the first to admit that I'm NOT a good fighter (despite my athletic physique :p), so if someone like me can beat these GKR guys, they really can't be that good... imagine how'd they go up against someone ya know... decent! :)

[Bartrim]

Speak of the devil.

I was walking through an arcade in Ulladulla today on my way to mail out statements and I see on a noticeboard that a GKR school has started up. I wonder how they will go.

[Bartrim]

About to go to my first lesson of "black belt club" which is an additional class for "students above the rank of orange belt who are serious about progressing to black belt. Class focuses on weapons and pressure points"

...

Should be fun... or painful.

[SkyWarp91]

About to go to my first lesson of "black belt club" which is an additional class for "students above the rank of orange belt who are serious about progressing to black belt. Class focuses on weapons and pressure points"

...

Should be fun... or painful.

how about painfully fun? :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I resumed training this week for the first time in months... so... painful! XO

[Bartrim]

I resumed training this week for the first time in months... so... painful! XO

Have you found a new school or are you still at the same one you were at last time we spoke? I recall you weren't to happy with the instructor there.

[GoktimusPrime]

I've been looking, but haven't found any better schools - so still sticking with my current one atm. The problem is that the majority of students there only learning for health and relaxation and not as a fighting/self defence style, there's only me and one other guy in the whole class who view it as a fighting form, and the other guy's happy to just learn for health/relaxation because he already has a black belt in Karate so he's not actively looking for learning a new fighting style. Although both he and I sometimes talk about how we can apply the techniques we're learning for fighting. This week a new guy came along who's had previous experience in other martial arts -- and I had an interesting discussion with him after class, and I'm trying to drag along another friend to come along who's also interested in learning for self defence.

The problem is that the vast majority of students at the school aren't interested in studying it for self defence, so people like me are a tiny minority in the school and the instructor has said that she can't change her teaching just to suit one student... which is perfectly understandable. But another problem is that - and my instructor has recently finally admitted this to everyone - she doesn't even know all the fight apps herself (and as I've explained to you, even when she does try to explain it, the explanations are questionable at best)... like this week she tried to explain the fighting app for Brush Knee (http://www.huntingdontaichi.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/BrushKnee.1192855_std.jpg) and told us that the lower hand is used to block. I thought to myself, "You gotta be kidding me," and I chimed up and said, "I'd say that would probably be used to drag an incoming punch down so you can use the other hand for a palm strike." -- the instructor neither confirmed nor denied my explanation. But if you look at this photo sequence (http://www.clearstaichi.com/wp-content/uploads/Tai-Chi-Brush-Knee.jpg) you can see that I was right. :p

Anyway, I'm still going to the same school. The techniques they teach are correct, even if the instructor doesn't necessarily know how to teach us how to use them. So I'm sticking with this mob unless I can find anything better around my area.

Sometimes we have special events where teachers from other branches come along who know more about the apps than my branch instructor - and that can be helpful for me. Unfortunately they don't happen very often. I've yet to meet the head instructor (the head branch is too far away for me to attend on a regular basis).

[GoktimusPrime]

Earlier this week I watched an episode of "Kill Arman" -- I know it's an old series now and it's probably a repeat, but I'd never heard of this series before let alone seen it.

For those who don't know, the series revolves around this tailor or fashion designer who has absolute zero experience in martial arts - and they fly him around the world where he has to train with 10 different masters in 10 different martial arts and get the tar kicked out of him! So with some trepidation I went and saw this week's ep... and it was actually pretty interesting, a lot more interesting than I expected.

I thought it would be like almost every other show about martial arts where they just show the typical commercialised modern competition/sport stuff -- but they actually show both and focus on the traditional (well, at least this week's ep did). In this week's ep, Arman travelled to China to learn Shaolin Kung Fu. They showed the Shaolin temple and all the stuff that the monks^acrobats there do, but they quickly pointed out that all this fancy flying stuntwork is NOT real Shaolin Kung Fu and is basically just acrobatic/gymnastic performances designed to attract tourists.

So Arman had to go outside of the Shaolin temple and find an obscure out of the way school where they still taught supposedly authentic Shaolin Kung Fu! This place was so remote it had NO hot water and I don't think the toilets even had running water! (good old drop-boxes!) -- so it was interesting seeing him go through the gruelling training of Shaolin Kung Fu.

But the show wanted Arman to get beat up - but because traditional martial arts is so potentially lethal, it's not suitable for competition (this is true). So they had to get a student at the school who'd also learnt a modern competition martial art -- in this case a Sanda fighter -- and they pitted him against Arman. The Sanda fighter held himself back and predictably kicked the tar out of Arman (not surprising because Arman only trained for 3 days).

Next episode Arman travels to Cambodia to study^get beaten up in the Cambodian martial art of Bokator. I've never heard of this style, so it'll be interesting to watch. :)

[Bartrim]

In black belt club last night we focused on Arnis... which fell into the painfully fun category. Some sore pressure points this morning.

[Bartrim]

Talking to my sensei yesterday and he slipped up... I may be double grading next month:D

[Bartrim]

Just watched some GKR video on youtube as I am still learning about why it has such a bad rep (I am learning very quickly:p) but how in the world can you have non contact sparring? How do they judge who gets the point if noone makes contact? Also the company also has the appearance of a pyramid scheme... I thought those were illegal.

[GoktimusPrime]

Maybe they judge on technique and if you make "close enough" hits?? <shrugs> I don't know...

There are some martial arts schools which don't have ANY kind of physical contact (like mine! :rolleyes:) -- but some purport to teach their students how to attack with their mystical "chi energy." You know when you're playing make believe, and you pretend of have powers like Force Push etc. -- that's what these guys do, only that to them, it's not make believe! And the instructor charges his students money for membership and lessons where he claims to demonstrate using these mystical powers on his students! :eek:

I know a guy who told me about one such school he witnessed. During the lesson the teacher would use Energy Attacks to repel his students. He'd make a gesture, and the opposing student would 'fly' back and fall over. Whenever he asked any of the students if they could do such moves, they would say, "Oh no, it takes years and years to develop this technique!" -- and when he asked the teacher if he could demonstrate an energy push on him, he said, "Oh no, I might accidentally injure or kill you. My students have been trained to withstand my attacks." (so... how did they survive the initial training when they were beginners?)

Even if we were to assume that these techniques are real... it takes like a lifetime to develop it apparently. In the mean time you're spending thousands of dollars on membership, lesson fees, gradings etc. -- wouldn't it be cheaper to buy a can of mace or a taser? Or take up jogging so if you do see an attack coming from long distance you can leg it!

The entire point of learning hand-to-hand self defence is because IRL an attack that you're going to need to defend yourself against is going to be one that you couldn't run away from (because running away is always your first option!) -- like say someone unexpectedly grabs you from behind. Force push? You'll both fly over wouldn't you? (and if he has you in something like a bear hug, then you can't lift your hands up to do the magic gesture...)

Imagine one of these Chi Energy fighters against a BJJ fighter. ;) *sigh* If you go back and look at the history of these non contact "Chi attack" schools, they came from this period where snobby aristocrats watched soldiers and peasants doing cool martial arts moves and taking down opponents... and they wanted to be able to do the same thing, but they didn't want to you know... break a sweat or get physical! So they invented the religious concept of Chi (re: Daoism) and created this martial art where they can supposedly use The Force^Chi to fight and take down opponents just like those awesome Shaolin Monks... only that they don't need to get hot and sweaty in training! :)

So... non-contact sparring has its roots in upper class aristocrats. But of course, back in those days most of those people would never interact with commoners (if anyone attacked them it was up to their bodyguards who actually trained in sweat and blood to defend them! (then the aristocrat would probably take the credit)). But nowadays seeing regular folks train in non-contact with the intention of learning self defence is more disappointing, because of course, if these people DO ever get attacked IRL... odds won't be favourable for them. :(

As for a pyramid scheme... I'm not sure. A pyramid scheme is meant to be an "unsustainable business model," yet commercially speaking GKR is extremely successful considering that it's like the single most commonly practised martial arts style in Australia. There are many martial arts schools like this in Australia and around the world -- absolute commercial successes, but teaching questionable self defence techniques. These questionable schools are often referred as "McDojos" (i.e. commercial success over quality) and their arts are sometimes called "Bullshido."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts#Martial_arts_industry

Asian martial arts experienced a surge of popularity in the west during the 1970s, and the rising demand resulted in numerous low quality or fraudulent schools. Fueled by fictional depictions in martial arts movies, this led to the "ninja craze" of the 1980s United States.[23] The rank system introduced for judo in the 1880s proved commercially viable, and "colored belt" systems were adopted in many martial arts degree mills (also known as "McDojos"; parodied in Penn & Teller: Bullshit! episode "Martial Arts", June 2010).
http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/

I find that the best martial arts schools tend to be rather obscure. Even in that "Kill Arman" episode in China, when he went to the Shaolin Temple it was all McDojo Bullshido rubbish... the only way he could learn authentic Shaolin Kung Fu was to go to this obscure out of the way school which also doubled as an orphanage and had no running water! I knew a guy who did something similar -- he trained in this small village in the middle of nowhere in rural China where nobody spoke a word of English and children would gather round pointing and laughing at him because they'd never seen a white man before! But boy did he learn to kick some serious butt while he was there!

[Bartrim]

OMG thanks for that Goki. I had a great laugh at that.

[GoktimusPrime]

From here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=274768&postcount=17):


What about baseball bats? Thats what i have incase i ever get into a road rage incident. (them being the aggressors of course)
The law only allows you to use reasonable force in self defence. So unless the aggressor is carrying something that can be used as a weapon, you're not allowed to use that bat. e.g. If a person comes up to in a threatening manner, but they appear unarmed, you're not justified to use your bat -- if you do, either your attacker or the police can charge you for assault, even though you didn't start the fight.

Even if the other person presented a weapon (e.g. a tyre iron) and you use your baseball bat in defence, the police might ask you why you had a baseball bat in your car. Some martial artists recommend that the best 'weapon' to carry around are everyday objects that would seem reasonable to carry around regularly. A cricket bat or a baseball bat is an odd thing to carry around unless you're going to/from training... a better object may be a golf umbrella.

I keep a golf umbrella in my car -- not to use a potential weapon, but just in case it rains! And even if it's a blazing hot sunny day, we know that the weather forecast isn't always right. I actually have one umbrella in my car and one at work (because unless it's raining when I get to work, I usually don't take my umbrella out of the car, so I have a spare umbrella next to my desk in case it rains after I've left my car and I'm at work (cos it's a fair hike from my desk to the car park -- all uncovered outdoors).

[UltraMarginal]

I want to know why it's always :"baseball bats"
why not cricket bats, or golf clubs or something else?

I play baseball and love the game, as such I actually often carry two bats in my car, but it saddens me that the baseball bat is considered a "weapon of choice" it's not even something that's that readily available in Australia. not like cricket bats are.

[GoktimusPrime]

Speaking purely from a technical POV and not meaning to advocate carrying anything with the intention of using it as a weapon, I think a baseball bat may be more easier to handle as a weapon due to it's relative more symmetrical shape compared to a cricket bat or a golf club. Not having a "head" on it like a golf club would also be more advantageous, as a club would get caught on stuff. This is why hook swords are bloody hard weapons to use - because while it can hook and ensnare, it can potentially get caught/trapped by the opponent. Swords with hooked handles/hilts are generally used by mounted soldiers/cavalry... there are some hook swords used by ground infantry but they're quite rare/obscure -- and it is because they're so damn hard to use efficiently! For most people it's a lot easier to use a smooth and symmetrical shaped weapon, which is why most melee weapons (swords, polearms, clubs, spears etc.) are shaped that way. There are exceptions, usually if the weapon has a specialist use (like a hooked cavalry blade). Oh, and I imagine that a baseball bat might have a more even weight distribution compared to an "end heavy" cricket bat or golf club (just my guess - I don't go around wielding these pieces of sport equipment around so I don't really know first hand :p)

[GoktimusPrime]

This comes from a conversation I've been having with another member in PM, but I think it may be better to continue it here. It started off just talking about Tai Chi in general.


Do you know the historical background as to why it's such a slow form? I've always wondered about that.

There are pros and cons to practising forms quickly and slowly. The advantage of practising it slowly is that you do get more of a "burn" moving slowly. I usually wear strap-on wrist and ankle weights when I practice my Tai Chi forms so when I'm slowly moving out into a posture, punch, kick etc. I can feel my muscles "burning" from moving out and holding in that position. If I move quickly I don't get as much of a muscular workout because I'm relying on momentum to carry me through. Even without any weights on, you'd be surprised at how much sweat and how out of breath you can get doing a slow Tai Chi form.

The advantage of doing a form quickly like in many other martial arts is that you get more of a fast aerobic work out -- and again, you can still practice rapid forms with weights on too. :)

From a self-defence POV the advantage of doing forms slowly is that you do actually learn more. It's actually harder to do forms slowly than it is to do it quickly. Imagine say executing a forward kick - some guys who only ever practise it at full speed are actually quite sloppy and their stance and movement is all over the place. They have poor balance and weight distribution... and they're completely oblivious to it because they're moving so quickly that they don't slow down to check if they're doing anything wrong.

With forms like Tai Chi, because you're moving so slowly any mistake you make becomes magnified and more bleedingly obvious... and Tai Chi teachers will nitpick your technique ruthlessly that is otherwise harder to detect when moving rapidly. Until I started doing Tai Chi I never knew that something as "simple" as stepping into a Riding Horse Stance could be so darn complicated!! Before then I thought you just step out into the stance -- feet/legs parallel, knees bent, back straight etc.; but Tai Chi showed me that I was barely even scratching the tip of the iceberg. There's all manners of very subtle body rotations and weight shifts/distributions as you move into the stance that allows you to step into a more solid Riding Horse Stance.

It's often said in martial arts that a person should be standing in his stance, not on it. i.e. you should feel that you're "rooted" or "anchored" into the ground (yet remain nimble and agile -- two seeming polar opposites working in harmony, the very concept of Yin and Yang).

While training slowly certainly has its benefits -- I've seen other external martial artists do it too (e.g. I've seen some Karate teachers get their students to practise their kata at very slow speeds - some Okinawan Karate schools will get them to hold weights while they're doing it too) -- there are disadvantages too. The most obvious is that nobody fights in slow motion. ;) You don't learn to hone your reflexes and timing etc. if you're always moving slowly. Tai Chi has fantastic sticking and trapping techniques, but if you never practise it against someone who's trying to fire a rapid succession of punches and kicks etc. at you, then it's gonna be bloody hard to execute these techniques IRL.

Another disadvantage is that internal practitioners get too "soft". A lot of us just lack any sense of 'animal ferocity' (or what modern sports science calls plyometrics -- "explosive" movement). That's the entire reason why some martial arts (e.g. Shaolin Kung Fu etc.) name themselves after fierce animals -- to give the practitioners a visual cue on how they should be moving. Many Tai Chi practitioners are great at absorbing the energy of an attack... when they're already in contact and doing push hands. Even if you speed up they can match your speed... but how did you get into that position in the first place? Most of the time when people practice Tai Chi apps, they just polite stick their arms together and start fighting... but that's unrealistic. In reality someone may have tried to punch or grab you or something -- and that arm's moving in really fast, and you have to react in time to intercept and stick to that arm, and then you can do your Tai Chi Push Hands technique... but without making that initial contact, the technique is pretty much worthless.

I sometimes get frustrated when I hear internal and external martial artists complain about each other. Internal martial artists complain about the external stylists being too hard and aggressive, external martial artists complain about the internal guys being too soft and passive... and yeah, there's some truth to it -- some external artists are too hard, and some internal artists are too soft... but IMO neither of those people are doing their arts properly.

I don't care what style someone does, but a good fighter ought to be moving with a balance of being hard and soft. Yin AND Yang (not Yin or Yang) -- if you think of the Yin Yang symbol it's the _two_ opposites working in harmony with each other. And the two dots mean that at the most extreme ends of each one, there is an element of the other. e.g. when your body is the most hard and most aggressive, you should have some softness and passivity - and likewise when you are at your softest point, you should also be strong.

Some people use the analogy of being like water. Water is soft and hard... anyone who's ever belly-flopped into a swimming pool will know this! Look at the devastating effect that the Queensland flood and Japan Tsunami had... something as "soft" as water was able to wash away cars, boats, buildings etc. -- and water can even erode something as hard as rock. How awesome was that scene from Fellowship of the Ring where Arwen summons the water to attack the Nazghul? ;) A humble piece of cloth may seem weak, but anyone who's ever been to a school swimming carnival in this country will know how painful it is getting whipped by a wet towel! :D

So it's often said that martial artists should try to be like water... soft, supple, elegant and flowing, but also relentless, pounding and unstoppably devastating like a juggernaut. Too often I see people try to be hard and strong and others who try to be soft and supple... but we should be all of those things. :)

[Bartrim]

I want to know why it's always :"baseball bats"
why not cricket bats, or golf clubs or something else?

I play baseball and love the game, as such I actually often carry two bats in my car, but it saddens me that the baseball bat is considered a "weapon of choice" it's not even something that's that readily available in Australia. not like cricket bats are.

I think it's just an Americanised term adapted by Australians.

I got my sparring gear today:)

[GoktimusPrime]

I got my sparring gear today:)

Heh... I just had an image of you driving home from training, then some guy trying to start a road rage fight with you - running at you with a baseball bat and screaming, then you lobbing your freshly used groin guard in his face. ;) :D

That'll learns 'em! :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Mugger gets pwned by his victim who turned out to be a martial arts practitioner (http://www.suntimes.com/news/crime/9261611-418/mugger-chooses-wrong-victim-ultimate-fighting-champ.html)

[Bartrim]

Got my purple beat on Saturday. Moving up the rankings:)

[5FDP]

Got my purple beat on Saturday. Moving up the rankings:)

http://www.eaishop.net/images/ozcup-beetroot-web.jpg :D

Congrats mate... seriously though... 'a' is nowhere near 'l' on the keyboard :confused: :p

[Bartrim]

http://www.eaishop.net/images/ozcup-beetroot-web.jpg :D

Congrats mate... seriously though... 'a' is nowhere near 'l' on the keyboard :confused: :p

Oops:o using an iPhone so either My fingers were too fat or I am the victim of autocorrect.

[GoktimusPrime]

lol :)

I watched Sherlock Holmes on DVD last night for the first time. Interesting seeing some of the fight techniques, seems to be an ecclectic mix of Kung Fu (according to the special features Robert Downey Jr. is a practitioner of Wing Chun Kung Fu in real life), Jujutsu (esp. the scene where Holmes and Watson are double arm-barring that big French dude!). I haven't read Sherlock Holmes since I was a child, but that movie brought lots of memories back - and something I'd completely forgotten is that of course, Holmes was meant to be a very competent fighter. In the books, Holmes is meant to be a skilled practitioner of Baritsu, a fictional martial art that Doyle had created and is probably based on or inspired by the Bartitsu -- an English martial art that emerged from the late Victorian Era. Apparently the name Bartitsu may have been inspired by the word "Jujitsu" (which in itself is a corruption of the word "Jujutsu" <--which is how it's pronounced in Japanese), but the techniques themselves are from Western roots - namely from Western boxing, wrestling, fencing, savate and stilleto (knife/dagger) fighting. Bartitsu apparently also specialises in using the walking stick as a defensive weapon - which we see with Dr. Watson's fighting form.

Some images of Bartitsu stick or cane fighting:
http://www.fullcontactmartialarts.org/bartitsu-stick-fighting.jpg
http://www.headmountedlasers.com/MU/holmes/twohanded.jpg
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID8685/images/BW20.jpg
http://www.bartitsu.it/images/Stock-Kampf

And here's an image of unarmed Bartitsu fighting (boxing):
http://martialhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/BW02.jpg

Here's a pic of people practising modern Bartitsu today:
http://www.modernbartitsu.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/n837578157_964591_6474.jpg

Now I don't know how accurate the actors' forms in the film were to actual Bartitsu, because I've never seen real Bartitsu before (like many Western martial arts, it's very obscure and just doesn't enjoy the same level of popularity as East Asian martial arts); but it was interesting to see a portrayal of Holmes' Baritsu as a full and frenzied down and dirty martial art fighting form, whereas my memories of previous movie/televised incarnations don't show him being terribly physical at all.

There's a web site dedicated to Bartitsu here: http://www.bartitsu.org/
And I found a web site for a UK based modern Bartitsu school here: http://www.modernbartitsu.com/

I just think it's fascinating seeing a film showcasing a Western European martial art, which so seldomly gets any limelight in popular media. Some people think that only East Asian regions developed martial arts, whereas in reality every region where conflict existed would have developed a martial art.

I wish there were a Bartitsu school in Sydney... if I ever found one I'd totally go check it out! I'm personally not interested in taking it up, but I would really love to have a look at it and have a bit of a try. :) There are some schools in Australia that teach European martial arts, I've seen some people who train in broadsword and Spanish Rapier Brawling, but I've yet to come across a school that teaches Bartitsu. :(

If anyone happens to find a Bartitsu school, do share your experience(s) with us! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Earlier on the news today I saw a story about a guy who was knocked down and repeatedly kicked by an attacker until someone else intervened and scared the attacker off -- police found a switchblade at the scene of the crime which was covered in the victim's blood. One guy made a comment on camera that he personally deplores anyone who's willing to kick another guy while he's lying on the ground.

Newsflash: tactically speaking, the _best_ time to kick someone is when they're on the ground! Is it scum? Sure... but it's bloody effective because it's really hard for your opponent to defend or counter... even with training, fighting a standing opponent while you're lying down is jolly difficult!

"It is a military axiom not to advance uphill against the enemy, nor to oppose him when he comes downhill." - Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

This story just serves as a reminder as to why training for self defence should never assume that an opponent shares any sense of "honour" or "decency" that you may hold. All too often I've come across practitioners who let their form down because of this (and in my personal observation, particularly amongst those who train for competition fights because comps enforce rules that disallow cheap moves - thus quite a lot of guys don't train to cover themselves against dirty tactics).

Sticking just with being kicked while on the ground, here's an example of what I mean. First, here's a breakfall technique that I've seen often taught to competition fighters (goes from right to left): Link (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-d1bfU6XuF4s/TVMpJZHj0rI/AAAAAAAABXY/w4zfvN5ACr4/s1600/ukemi+02.jpg)
If you look at where the person ends up in the final positions (far left side), he's very exposed. With the right hand slapping down on the ground to his side, he's left that side wide open - the face (incl. nose, teeth), throat, chest, ribs, stomach etc. are unprotected and it doesn't take much for even an untrained attacker to just repeatedly stomp and kick into those open areas in a mad frenzy. While that diagram shows both feet together, in reality I find most people who do this technique tend to end up with their legs like this (http://www.yakma.co.uk/images/Breakfall%20Practice.JPG) or this (http://www.ultimatejujitsu.com/learn-jujitsu-techniques/traditional-jujitsu-techniques/green-belt/spinning-side-breakfall/spinning-side-breakfall-3.jpg) <---these guys are actually using their spare hand to cover the face, but the side of the head (i.e. ear/neck) is exposed (although he could try to cover that with the shoulder) - and lower flank and stomach and GROIN are all wide open! :rolleyes:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_Hotrod-facepalm-uk187.gif

Here's what I mean...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/mtvskf4.jpg
^Kicker has done a reverse breakfall using the technique as described above and Gamede is easily following up by kicking his face (just as well he has a helmet I suppose).

A technique that is favoured more amongst some traditionalists is to curl your body into a ball (almost like a foetal position). The hands are behind the ears with the elbows pinching toward each other, and of course the chin is tucked toward the chest so this forms a protective 'cage' around the head and neck area. The knees are tucked right in which then forms a second protective 'cage' around the torso and with knees together, the groin is protected. See the pic on the left below:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/mtvskf5.jpg
This position also allows the defender to use one or both of his legs to intercept potential kicks from the attacker, or possible even try to attack the attacker's supporting leg(s) to elicit him to fall over (thus neutralising the "high ground" advantage) - e.g. scissor leg takedown.

[Bartrim]

Training resumes tomorrow:)

A few of us got to go to the academy for a sparring session on Thursday. A young kid who is a national judo champion hyper-extended my elbow in an armbar:( Although sore I'm not holding any grudges as the hold slipped in that quick that everyone was taken off guard.

[GoktimusPrime]

A few of us got to go to the academy for a sparring session on Thursday. A young kid who is a national judo champion hyper-extended my elbow in an armbar:( Although sore I'm not holding any grudges as the hold slipped in that quick that everyone was taken off guard.
Just out of curiosity, have you done much counter-grappling stuff?

[Bartrim]

Just out of curiosity, have you done much counter-grappling stuff?

Yeah we do a lot of grappling. Our lessons usually revolve around either self defense or competitive fighting. Earlier I made someone tap with a kimura. I really enjoy the MMA classes.

[GoktimusPrime]

Goktimus, Is there anything you don't know a lot about.??:eek:
Dude seriously... my martial arts knowledge/prowess is EXTREMELY basic! I'm just a novice. :) You should see some of the other guys I've trained with... seriously put me to shame. ;)


Yeah we do a lot of grappling. Our lessons usually revolve around either self defense or competitive fighting. Earlier I made someone tap with a kimura. I really enjoy the MMA classes.
Ah yeah, I find the BJJ stuff is pretty neat for one-on-one fighting... but I personally would find it restrictive against multiple opponents. I prefer standing grappling (http://www.altstudio.com.au/qmas/products/image_1402.jpg) - i.e. grapples where you're still upright rather than going down to the ground with the opponent. :)

I know of a guy who was attacked my multiple attackers in a car park (racially motivated). His mate who was BJJ trained pinned one of the attackers down like this (http://www.martialantics.com/Content/Images/Products/display/GrapplingDummy.jpg) and started wailing into him, but then another attacker came up from behind him and whacked his head with a plank of wood. That position, like many BJJ positions, is great for 1 v. 1, but somewhat lacking when there's secondary attackers. The other dude used standing grapples (http://www.karatemart.com/images/products/main/chinese-grappling.jpg), so he lasted longer - but he was also eventually taken down because he was outnumbered 10:1. :(

[Bartrim]

Yeah we only use BJJ for competitive purposes. When we study self defence we are taught direct attacks to pressure points incase you are attacked by multiple assailants to disable them as quickly as possible.

In tonight's black belt club my sensei and I sparred using MMA gloves instead the normal 10oz boxing gloves. These MMA gloves dont absorb anything. I took a shot to the ribs and he dropped me like 3rd period French. Great to toughen you up though.

By the way Gok, you have an open invite to our academy anytime you travel down the coast... Just be prepared for lots of kicks to the upper inner thigh:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah we only use BJJ for competitive purposes. When we study self defence we are taught direct attacks to pressure points incase you are attacked by multiple assailants to disable them as quickly as possible.
Fairy 'nuff. :)


In tonight's black belt club my sensei and I sparred using MMA gloves instead the normal 10oz boxing gloves. These MMA gloves dont absorb anything. I took a shot to the ribs and he dropped me like 3rd period French. Great to toughen you up though.
Mmm... body conditioning fresh. :D I personally don't see the purpose of using fully enclosed boxing gloves for self defence training since they fully cover up your fingers (so you can grab or use any open hand techniques or any hand techniques other than a closed fist really). MMA gloves are much more preferable. :)


By the way Gok, you have an open invite to our academy anytime you travel down the coast...
Thanks dude. :)


Just be prepared for lots of kicks to the upper inner thigh:p
If someone hits me there that's my own damn fault for leaving myself exposed. ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yesterday I heard this kid bagging out Karate - saying stuff like, "Who'd use that in a fight?" and talking about how impractical it was for self defence etc. He complained about how he used to do Karate and how he never learnt anything useful for it. I tried to tell him that it would be useful if he practised and trained properly... then he admitted that he never did pay attention to the Sensei much anyway - and yet he still insisted that it was the school's fault.

Alright, there are quite a few martial arts teachers out there who don't teach properly and as a result their techniques don't work well in a fight (it's like having a car in top condition, but unless you have the skills/education to drive it properly then you're not going to be very effective at driving it - but that's not necessarily the car's fault). It's different from say people who train earnestly but still can't defend themselves adequately (appropriate to their level of training of course)... in that case, sure, their criticism may be valid. But to bag out a martial art or school when you couldn't be bothered paying attention to the teacher? Right.

Gotta love kids these days and how nothing's ever their responsibility. :rolleyes:

[Bartrim]

Went to UFC on FX 2 in Sydney with my Sensei yesterday. What a great experience. The atmosphere was amazing and having my sensei next to me pointing out the finer points of the techniques used was a great learning experience. The only downer were the handful of idiots in the crowd who "knew" more then the professionals. I remember hearing one guy yell out "Punch him in the face!" Brilliant idea:rolleyes:

[GoktimusPrime]

Glad to hear you guys had a good time. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

........

One of my students is currently nursing a broken leg after an injury in his dojo. Now I understand that injuries will happen, but here are the circumstances:
+ He was participating in a tournament and had his leg broken after his opponent swept his leg and he fell.
+ I asked him if he'd been taught breakfall techniques -- he didn't even know what I was talking about.

Yes, martial arts is an inherently dangerous physical activity and there's always risk of injury... but martial arts teachers have a legal duty of care (the same duty of care that school teachers have) and need to take reasonable measures to avoid/prevent injury. Surely you wouldn't allow a kid to do open/free sparring or tournament fighting unless they've been taught specific defensive techniques for safety, like breakfalling. What does the sensei expect him to do if he does lose balance and fall over in a fight?? Just fall down and break a leg? I can understand that injuries will happen in sport, even with the best preventative measures... but what irks me more is when there appears to be a lack of preventative measures.

Why should I care? This student has now missed two weeks of classes due to his injury; so it's directly affecting his school life. Also, because he's a rather advanced student I prepare special resources and work for him (and another student) to do that's different from the rest of the class (these 2 kids find regular work too easy and boring and they finish it in a flash). So it's a waste of my time preparing specialised work for him to do when he's not even turning up to class. Also they have a test coming up this week too... *sigh* Now luckily he's just naturally strong in Japanese so I'm not worried about his results, but what about his weaker subjects??

Why should the rest of us care? When the parents go to the dojo to claim the medical cost of the injury, the dojo will lodge a claim with their insurance provider. If the insurance provider determines that the school was derilict in their duty of care, then the school will charged excess (just like being an at-fault driver in a traffic accident); then what often happens is that the insurance premiums for martial arts teachers everywhere increases. This in turn may contribute to the increase of membership, fees etc. -- so ultimately everyone pays for it and inconveniences all other martial arts schools who are do the right thing and try their best to keep their students safe in training/practice. :(

[5FDP]

He was participating in a tournament and had his leg broken after his opponent swept his leg and he fell.


Sorry, but I can't help but think of a certain movie after reading that line :D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MM73OSzsi-s/TBP1Dq9_X_I/AAAAAAAAAns/1ssI8Zoh4JA/s1600/sweep+the+leg.jpg

Break falling is the first thing you're taught in Hapkido.

[Bartrim]

Sorry, but I can't help but think of a certain movie after reading that line :D

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_MM73OSzsi-s/TBP1Dq9_X_I/AAAAAAAAAns/1ssI8Zoh4JA/s1600/sweep+the+leg.jpg

Break falling is the first thing you're taught in Hapkido.

QFT everything in that post. :D

That was the first thing that came to my mind too and breakfall techniques were the first thing we learnt too. Even now before we do any throws we all practice break falls.

[GoktimusPrime]

Not all schools will teach breakfall first; some won't teach breakfall ever... but not all schools have sparring or tournaments (like my Tai Chi school where most people are just learning it for relaxation/health and don't care about the fight apps). But I do absolutely agree that breakfalling should (must) be taught first if the school chooses to allow their students to engage in any form of full contact fighting. As well as using safety gear, mats etc.

And yeah, most schools do the right thing and ensure that their students have the necessary training and equipment before letting them spar/compete, but unfortunately I've heard or witnessed too many instances where schools have not done this... which just makes things expensive for all the other schools who have done the right thing. :(

[Bartrim]

So we are having our official grand opening and a training/grading day in 2 weeks. My sensei has asked me to grade to green belt a term early. This has got a few noses out of joint from the younger students who graded with me at the last grading last term because they aren't grading. WHat they dont realise is that I was supposed to double grade at the last grading but because I was sick I wasn't fit enough to meet the requirements. Then being an assistant instructor, Sensei asked me to run the cool down stretches while he got changed and prepped for the Muay Thai class as our other 2 sempais were absent last night. I don't know if it's their youthfulness or they were disgruntled with me but this group of kids just flat out disrespected me. :mad:

Anyway it's logged in the memory banks for next time I'm in charge of a class.

[GoktimusPrime]

IMHO kids who disrespect and disobey instructors (and otherwise lack self-discipline) don't deserve to be trained. I reckon instructors are fully within their rights (and are obliged under duty of care) to exclude disrespectful/disobedient students from training.

Learning a martial art is a privilege, not a right. Techniques are potentially dangerous and can hurt people. If a student isn't willing to show the proper level of maturity to handle such a responsibility then they don't deserve to learn it.

JMHO.

[Oldschool78]

IMHO kids who disrespect and disobey instructors (and otherwise lack self-discipline) don't deserve to be trained. I reckon instructors are fully within their rights (and are obliged under duty of care) to exclude disrespectful/disobedient students from training.

Learning a martial art is a privilege, not a right. Techniques are potentially dangerous and can hurt people. If a student isn't willing to show the proper level of maturity to handle such a responsibility then they don't deserve to learn it.

JMHO.

Thats exactly how we handle things. Not just kids too adults come under the same category

[Bartrim]

Anyone else watch TUF live last weekend? I'm hoping Justin Lawrence wins it. I like seeing someone who has practiced a traditional martial art (karate in this case) compete as opposed to people who are classified as mixed martial artists that train only for these competitions and don't focus on one discipline.

My brother and I also LOL'd that this awesome karate fighter dudes name is Justin Lawrence as Johnny Lawrence was the best student at Cobra-Kai in the Karate Kid:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Don't forget that Transformers #1 was written by Ralph Macchio (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ralph_Macchio), the same name as the guy who played the original Karate Kid! :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Photocomic%20Faith/photocomic_faith16.jpg

[Bartrim]

The latest episode of TUF: Live showed one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. Urijah Faber picked one of his favourites Darren Cruikshank, a man who had grown up in a martial arts family and had trained his life to take on an outsider in James Vick who prefers boxing. Sure enough Cruikshank dominated him for the early part of the fight. Then shot for a takedown, copped a knee in the face from Vick and was KO'ed. One shot is all it takes;)

What was funny was in the post fight interviews Vick said he saw Cruikshank coming in for the takedown and went for a kick, it's just his knee got there first. Better lucky then good I guess:D

Also something I found odd is taht since Vick won, coach Cruz has the pick of the next fight. So he picked the karate kid Justin Lawrence who displayed some awesome striking against a world class BJJ fighter in Cristiano Marello. I would think Marello would be too experienced for the 21 year old Lawrence. Either way whoever wins this match it will mean two of the favourites have been eliminated in the first two fights as Cruikshank, Lawrence and Marello are considered 3 of the top 5 fighters in the house.

[GoktimusPrime]

One shot is all it takes;)
^Yup! :) As Bushido says, "One hit, one kill." Or as Dorit from The Simpsons says, "No groin, no Krav Maga (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga)!" :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/kravmagadorit.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7G6SKEkUDg)

[GoktimusPrime]

10 fitness facts and myths according to fitness experts (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-1)

I think ones the ones I find especially relevant for martial arts practitioners include:
Stretch as a cool down, not as a warm up (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-2)
"No pain no gain" is a myth (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-3) (I've met some martial artists who think that they haven't trained properly if they're not hurting :eek:)

There are a lot of other interesting fitness tips there, but I personally found those two to be the most poignant. :)

[Bartrim]

10 fitness facts and myths according to fitness experts (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-1)

I think ones the ones I find especially relevant for martial arts practitioners include:
Stretch as a cool down, not as a warm up (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-2)
"No pain no gain" is a myth (http://www.everydayhealth.com/fitness-pictures/separating-fitness-fact-from-fiction.aspx#/slide-3) (I've met some martial artists who think that they haven't trained properly if they're not hurting :eek:)

There are a lot of other interesting fitness tips there, but I personally found those two to be the most poignant. :)

What about the sports bra one? :p

I agree with the stretching one. We only stretch at the end of a lesson. No pain no gain... well I think that depends on what you are training for. For example former UFC Heavyweight champion Frank Mir will often train in explosive exercises like sprinting wearing a snorkel with his nose plugged up. Forcing his body to perform at maximum capacity with limited oxygen intake as this builds up a tolerence to lactic acid. It is a very gruelly exercise that takes it toll on him. So then when it comes time to fight he is not really performing at maximum capacity for all the fight, but he has the maximum oxygen intake.

However if you just want to shed a few kilos or improve your fitness 30 minutes of moderate exercise 5 times a week should be plenty.

[GoktimusPrime]

What about the sports bra one? :p
The majority of people in my school are women, but I doubt (m)any of them wear sports bras. Mind you, Tai Chi is a fairly low impact martial art (although we do have some jumps). ;) :p


I agree with the stretching one. We only stretch at the end of a lesson. No pain no gain... well I think that depends on what you are training for. For example former UFC Heavyweight champion Frank Mir will often train in explosive exercises like sprinting wearing a snorkel with his nose plugged up. Forcing his body to perform at maximum capacity with limited oxygen intake as this builds up a tolerence to lactic acid. It is a very gruelly exercise that takes it toll on him. So then when it comes time to fight he is not really performing at maximum capacity for all the fight, but he has the maximum oxygen intake.
I'd say that's more of an example (a very extremem example :D) of "no strain no gain," which I would agree with. Sprinting with a snorkel and nose plugs would strain/exert one's body to its limits, but if you twisted your ankle during a sprint then I don't think continuing to run (rapid limp :p) on that ankle would be very beneficial. I've seen lots of cases where people train through injuries in martial arts -- I'd be here forever retelling them, but there's a book called "Angry White Pyjamas" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas) by Robert Twigger - a Brit who lived in Tokyo for about a year and trained in Yoshinkan Aikido. The book details some of the gruelling and agonising training that they went through.

"He refers to doing kneeling techniques, or suwari-waza, until his knees bled, only to practice the next day and in so doing tear open the scabs.
Other experiences on the course include "hajime" sessions where one technique is performed repeatedly, without a break, sometimes for up to half-an-hour or more. During these sessions, trainees sometimes pass out or vomit, especially in the summer months."
^I don't see much physical benefit in making students bleed and vomit as part of training. :/


However if you just want to shed a few kilos or improve your fitness 30 minutes of moderate exercise 5 times a week should be plenty.
+1 :)

[Bartrim]

Well even though we have been ther for about 6months, last weekend we finally held our official opening of our full time martial arts academy (instead of using the basketball stadium:o).

Overall the day went pretty well:)

First off we had all the official opening hooplah with one of our local council members. Kyoshi Blundell (the founder of Kumiai-Ryu) and I can't remember the other guys name (in the mma shorts) but he is the national Sanda coach.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma1.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma2.jpg

Then we had some pretty neat demonstrations,

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma3.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma5.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma8.jpg

Then there was a gruelling Muay-Thai and MMA grading during which Kyoshi told a very interesting anicdote from his first MMA lesson in 1969 in Japan. He made me laugh when after telling the story of this harsh training session he said "The worst part in that story is admitting that I was studying martial arts in 1969":p

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma11.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma9.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma10.jpg

When then finished off the day with a brutal karate senior grading involving self defence and sparring (which I was brave stupid enough to participate in):p

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma12.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma13.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma14.jpg
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/ma15.jpg

By the end of the day someone was tired (leaning up against the wall:o)

[5FDP]

Awesome Bartrim. Looks like a fun day.

[Bartrim]

Awesome Bartrim. Looks like a fun day.

Thanks it was a fantastic day, but like the last photo shows I was pretty stuffed by the end of the day and I'm still hurting.

[GoktimusPrime]

From this thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=13294). :)


Wait wait, did Samurai duel-wield?
It's quite common for sword fighters to wield a secondary shorter sword or dagger as an auxiliary weapon*, but as far as wielding two long swords as a primary weapon... quite rarely. Dual-sword fighting is VERY difficult and for most people it's often more easier and efficient to focus on using a single primary sword.

The common name for Japanese double-sword fighting is Nito-Ryu (二刀流) and not many people can do it proficiently -- and even then, it's typically with one long sword, one short sword, not two long swords.

---------------------------------------------
*Samurai carried three blades - the set was known as "daishou"; it consisted of a long sword (e.g. katana), a short sword (e.g. wakizashi) and a dagger (tantou). ROTF Bludgeon has all three. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Well... I did it... I signed myself up for a 3 month trial period at a local Karate Dojo. Not going to mention the style or school name... but erm... see how we go. First lesson this Friday. <crosses.fingers>

[5FDP]

Good luck Goki. Sweep Break a leg :p

[Bartrim]

Well... I did it... I signed myself up for a 3 month trial period at a local Karate Dojo. Not going to mention the style or school name... but erm... see how we go. First lesson this Friday. <crosses.fingers>

Good luck Goki... Although I'm curious why don't you want to mention the school or style? It's not GKR is it?

[KalEl]

Good luck Goki... Although I'm curious why don't you want to mention the school or style? It's not GKR is it?

Why are you worried if its gkr?

[Bartrim]

Why are you worried if its gkr?

I'm not worried if it is. Everyone is free to study whatever style suits them best. It was more of a rib at Gok as he has been critical of gkr in the past.

[KalEl]

I'm not worried if it is. Everyone is free to study whatever style suits them best. It was more of a rib at Gok as he has been critical of gkr in the past.

I've doing gkr in the past quite extensively and they have a very good technical style, just the business side annoys me a bit.

[Bartrim]

I've doing gkr in the past quite extensively and they have a very good technical style, just the business side annoys me a bit.

Thats understandable. I have seen videos and the techniques do seem quite solid. Their business practices do leave a sour taste in my mouth. Also I have trouble with the no contact thing. I've found with my karate that the rate at which I have improved since I started sparring 6 months ago compared to before when I just did techniques has increased leaps and bounds. For me you can't beat practical experience for imrovement.:)

[KalEl]

True, it really depends on if you are a kata practitioner or prefer combat. I do mma for contact work. And karate for kata

[Bartrim]

True, it really depends on if you are a kata practitioner or prefer combat. I do mma for contact work. And karate for kata

Fair enough. I am fortunate like that as our academy has karate, muay thai and mma. The Muay Thai and mma classes are very specific but in karate we incorporate everything the school teaches so we get to do clinch work and bjj. Good times:cool:

[KalEl]

Fair enough. I am fortunate like that as our academy has karate, muay thai and mma. The Muay Thai and mma classes are very specific but in karate we incorporate everything the school teaches so we get to do clinch work and bjj. Good times:cool:

what dojo do you belong to>?

[GoktimusPrime]

Good luck Goki... Although I'm curious why don't you want to mention the school or style? It's not GKR is it?
Ummm... yes. :p <ducks>


I'm not worried if it is. Everyone is free to study whatever style suits them best. It was more of a rib at Gok as he has been critical of gkr in the past.
Indeed I have. And part of me remains skeptical. A salesperson from my local GKR dojo paid me a visit - and I was quite open with my skepticism -- I asked her all kinds of questions and raised various concerns/issues I have with martial arts in general. Some of what I heard was surprisingly promising (e.g. they let students skip grades if they demonstrate proficiency (double grading); and in fact, grading and uniform aren't even compulsory), but other elements still leave me doubtful (e.g. the whole non-contact thing).

Also... it seems that you're really restricted in what you're allowed to do until you're a brown belt... and there's a like a whole rainbow and a half of belts to go before you get there! :( I can understand their concerns about duty of care and keeping students safe... but I think their non-contact rule might give students a sense of false security - i.e. if you forbid ANY part of the body as a target, the students will learn to never defend it properly (e.g. the groin!).

And apparently nobody's allowed to even train with any higher belts until Brown either... I did mention to the salesperson that I believe you can only learn by training with someone who's better than yourself - but she said it was a safety thing.

In Tai Chi we allow novices to train with masters - but we do "soft contact" sparring where you "tip" instead of punching or kicking with full force -- it's like playing tips in the schoolyard; so rather than punching your face, I'd simply tap it with my finger tips. Obviously if I can move fast enough to tap you on the face, I could easily have punched you there. And likewise with the stomach, throat, shoulder... any part of the body except the groin (because as we all know, even a gentle tap on the scrotum can REALLY hurt!) -- for that we just tap the upper inner thigh (where the groin muscle is, right next to the groin itself). Most of our punches and kicks were done against pads and shields. If we wanted to punch and kick against an opponent then you'd wear all the safety gear like with sparring - but only more advanced students were allowed to do that.

But even novice students were allowed to "tip" or even just punch/kick and finish it just a few cm away from the target (which teaches good control - although you don't want to do that all the time or you'd learn to strike in front of targets and not through them as you should ;)). The salesperson said that the problem with doing this with beginners is that they often lack the coordination to do it safely and may end up causing injuries - which is a fair point. But see... this is another advantage of mixing junior and seniors together! The seniors now how to hold back their hits, because they're experienced, and when the juniors go too far, the seniors have the training to block/parry/dodge etc. and educate the junior by telling them that their strike lacked sufficient control. The juniors learn from the seniors (and quite frankly the seniors learn too through teaching).

The trouble I find with juniors constantly training with juniors... it's like the blind leading the blind. You can have beginners practising a technique incorrectly/badly until a more senior student or instructor walks by and corrects them - but if you're training with a senior, they can correct you straight away (or at least say, "This doesn't feel right, let's stop and ask the teacher.")

I personally can see a LOT of benefit of allowing junior and senior students to learn from each other rather than keeping the "ranks" segregated. Another cool thing is that the juniors can actually see and feel for themselves what the more advanced techniques feel like. Blocking a straight punch from a white belt feels completely different from blocking the exact same straight punch from a black belt, know what I mean? Or even having your punch blocked by an advanced student feels entirely different. And when you feel that as a novice you think, "So that's what I should be striving to achieve!"


I've doing gkr in the past quite extensively and they have a very good technical style, just the business side annoys me a bit.
Okay, here are my current thoughts about GKR from what I've seen and sampled in the past:
+ The basic/fundamental techniques are quite good. That's something I've always admired about GKR -- I think especially for people who've never studied a martial art or even thrown a ball before and have really underdeveloped coordination and other physical skills, I think GKR is quite good in developing those basic core skills.
+ I personally have yet to be impressed by their more advanced techniques -- and I have actually sparred with a GKR black belt (a Sensei no less) before... and I won. And I suck at fighting (don't let my athletic physique fool you :p). But hey... maybe it was just him. <shrug>
+ It has a reputation from being a McDojo (possibly the "business" side you're talking about).

Also... I'm still wondering about the authenticity of the style. As far as I know - and the official web site verifies this - GKR was founded by an Australian, Robert Sullivan. The web site says that he studied Karate before this, but it fails to mention:
* What style of Karate he studied.
* What modifications were made to it when it became his GKR style.
I did mention this to the salesperson, but she kept reassuring me that it is a traditional Japanese style of Karate and that it's popular in Japan. I told her that I've lived in Japan before, and any time I've mentioned GKR to a Japanese Karateka, they've always said, "What's GKR?" -- this took her by complete surprise. I later did Google searches in English and Japanese and I have been unable to find anything that verifies the lineage or authenticity of GKR as a style. In fact, most the results I got from the English search were criticisms against GKR. The results I got from the Japanese search was "What's GKR?" and "GKR is an Australian style of Karate, we don't have it here in Japan." When I mentioned this to the salesperson (she came back later to tell me more about GKR), she told me that she had spoken to one of her superiors about my question regarding their style authenticity, and she was told that GKR does exist in Japan, but it goes under a different name (although she didn't tell me what that name was) and that it was authorised by a Federation/organisation thingie in Japan -- not that being officially sanctioned by a federation necessarily makes it traditional. After all, Chinese Modern Wushu is officially sanctioned, yet that's an acrobatic/gymnastic performance based martial art (it's the stuff you see in Kung Fu movies - nothing like actual Kung Fu of course :p). I had a lecturer at uni who did Modern Wushu and quite enjoyed it - he told me that it's a lot of fun and fitness, "but if anyone can fight with it, I'll eat my hat." ;)

So I will admit that I am walking into this with a fair amount of skepticism. But I've paid for a three month trial membership, so I'm locked in! I'll give it a go and give GKR a chance to change my mind. What I'm thinking about doing, if nobody has any objections, is logging my experiences/thoughts here after each lesson... that way you guys can follow me on my Karate journey. :D

[KalEl]

Ummm... yes. :p <ducks>


Indeed I have. And part of me remains skeptical. A salesperson from my local GKR dojo paid me a visit - and I was quite open with my skepticism -- I asked her all kinds of questions and raised various concerns/issues I have with martial arts in general. Some of what I heard was surprisingly promising (e.g. they let students skip grades if they demonstrate proficiency (double grading); and in fact, grading and uniform aren't even compulsory), but other elements still leave me doubtful (e.g. the whole non-contact thing).

Also... it seems that you're really restricted in what you're allowed to do until you're a brown belt... and there's a like a whole rainbow and a half of belts to go before you get there! :( I can understand their concerns about duty of care and keeping students safe... but I think their non-contact rule might give students a sense of false security - i.e. if you forbid ANY part of the body as a target, the students will learn to never defend it properly (e.g. the groin!).

And apparently nobody's allowed to even train with any higher belts until Brown either... I did mention to the salesperson that I believe you can only learn by training with someone who's better than yourself - but she said it was a safety thing.

In Tai Chi we allow novices to train with masters - but we do "soft contact" sparring where you "tip" instead of punching or kicking with full force -- it's like playing tips in the schoolyard; so rather than punching your face, I'd simply tap it with my finger tips. Obviously if I can move fast enough to tap you on the face, I could easily have punched you there. And likewise with the stomach, throat, shoulder... any part of the body except the groin (because as we all know, even a gentle tap on the scrotum can REALLY hurt!) -- for that we just tap the upper inner thigh (where the groin muscle is, right next to the groin itself). Most of our punches and kicks were done against pads and shields. If we wanted to punch and kick against an opponent then you'd wear all the safety gear like with sparring - but only more advanced students were allowed to do that.

But even novice students were allowed to "tip" or even just punch/kick and finish it just a few cm away from the target (which teaches good control - although you don't want to do that all the time or you'd learn to strike in front of targets and not through them as you should ;)). The salesperson said that the problem with doing this with beginners is that they often lack the coordination to do it safely and may end up causing injuries - which is a fair point. But see... this is another advantage of mixing junior and seniors together! The seniors now how to hold back their hits, because they're experienced, and when the juniors go too far, the seniors have the training to block/parry/dodge etc. and educate the junior by telling them that their strike lacked sufficient control. The juniors learn from the seniors (and quite frankly the seniors learn too through teaching).

The trouble I find with juniors constantly training with juniors... it's like the blind leading the blind. You can have beginners practising a technique incorrectly/badly until a more senior student or instructor walks by and corrects them - but if you're training with a senior, they can correct you straight away (or at least say, "This doesn't feel right, let's stop and ask the teacher.")

I personally can see a LOT of benefit of allowing junior and senior students to learn from each other rather than keeping the "ranks" segregated. Another cool thing is that the juniors can actually see and feel for themselves what the more advanced techniques feel like. Blocking a straight punch from a white belt feels completely different from blocking the exact same straight punch from a black belt, know what I mean? Or even having your punch blocked by an advanced student feels entirely different. And when you feel that as a novice you think, "So that's what I should be striving to achieve!"


Okay, here are my current thoughts about GKR from what I've seen and sampled in the past:
+ The basic/fundamental techniques are quite good. That's something I've always admired about GKR -- I think especially for people who've never studied a martial art or even thrown a ball before and have really underdeveloped coordination and other physical skills, I think GKR is quite good in developing those basic core skills.
+ I personally have yet to be impressed by their more advanced techniques -- and I have actually sparred with a GKR black belt (a Sensei no less) before... and I won. And I suck at fighting (don't let my athletic physique fool you :p). But hey... maybe it was just him. <shrug>
+ It has a reputation from being a McDojo (possibly the "business" side you're talking about).

Also... I'm still wondering about the authenticity of the style. As far as I know - and the official web site verifies this - GKR was founded by an Australian, Robert Sullivan. The web site says that he studied Karate before this, but it fails to mention:
* What style of Karate he studied.
* What modifications were made to it when it became his GKR style.
I did mention this to the salesperson, but she kept reassuring me that it is a traditional Japanese style of Karate and that it's popular in Japan. I told her that I've lived in Japan before, and any time I've mentioned GKR to a Japanese Karateka, they've always said, "What's GKR?" -- this took her by complete surprise. I later did Google searches in English and Japanese and I have been unable to find anything that verifies the lineage or authenticity of GKR as a style. In fact, most the results I got from the English search were criticisms against GKR. The results I got from the Japanese search was "What's GKR?" and "GKR is an Australian style of Karate, we don't have it here in Japan." When I mentioned this to the salesperson (she came back later to tell me more about GKR), she told me that she had spoken to one of her superiors about my question regarding their style authenticity, and she was told that GKR does exist in Japan, but it goes under a different name (although she didn't tell me what that name was) and that it was authorised by a Federation/organisation thingie in Japan -- not that being officially sanctioned by a federation necessarily makes it traditional. After all, Chinese Modern Wushu is officially sanctioned, yet that's an acrobatic/gymnastic performance based martial art (it's the stuff you see in Kung Fu movies - nothing like actual Kung Fu of course :p). I had a lecturer at uni who did Modern Wushu and quite enjoyed it - he told me that it's a lot of fun and fitness, "but if anyone can fight with it, I'll eat my hat." ;)

So I will admit that I am walking into this with a fair amount of skepticism. But I've paid for a three month trial membership, so I'm locked in! I'll give it a go and give GKR a chance to change my mind. What I'm thinking about doing, if nobody has any objections, is logging my experiences/thoughts here after each lesson... that way you guys can follow me on my Karate journey. :D
love to have a chat to you about my experience with gkr, i have had experience as a student, instructor and working for them. 8 years of it infact. if you have skype i'd love to chat to you :) pm me P.s i have a non bias view as i know the pros and cons unfortunatley lol

[Bartrim]

what dojo do you belong to>?

I study Kumiai-Ryu which like GKR is founded by an Australian Kevin Blundell. It definitely has McDojo qualities but overall it is the real McCoy. Kyoshi Blundell definitely has credentials. But most importantly I enjoy it and have a great bond with my Sensei.

[KalEl]

I study Kumiai-Ryu which like GKR is founded by an Australian Kevin Blundell. It definitely has McDojo qualities but overall it is the real McCoy. Kyoshi Blundell definitely has credentials. But most importantly I enjoy it and have a great bond with my Sensei.

Thats awesome man, a good bond between student sensei is so important.

[Bartrim]

Thats awesome man, a good bond between student sensei is so important.

He is quite a nice bloke. Even though we are on break at the moment after I had a huge verbal stoush with my deranged sister who was verbally abusing my wife, I rang him and he let me into the academy to work the pads and let off some steam.

[KalEl]

He is quite a nice bloke. Even though we are on break at the moment after I had a huge verbal stoush with my deranged sister who was verbally abusing my wife, I rang him and he let me into the academy to work the pads and let off some steam.

that's cool that you are able to do that

[Bartrim]

that's cool that you are able to do that

I know. Plus cause I am a green belt now... which means hopefully be end of year I will be going for brown/white belt he talked to me about becoming an instructor and outlined the course I have to do.

[KalEl]

I know. Plus cause I am a green belt now... which means hopefully be end of year I will be going for brown/white belt he talked to me about becoming an instructor and outlined the course I have to do.

very cool, i learnt so much as an instructor and you grow quickly that way

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay, just had my first lesson tonight. Both Sensei and Sempais gave me heaps of praise about how quickly I was able to pick stuff up -- I did tell Sensei and some of the Sempais that I have a background in Tai Chi. :) They told me that on the first lesson they usually only teach basics: i.e. basic punching, blocking and some stances... but as I was showing good progress, Sensei taught me the entire first Kata which I repeatedly practised and Sensei nitpicked me on some technical stuff.

The Good:

+ I'm really glad I was allowed to learn the entire first Kata on the first lesson. Learning purely the basic blocks/punches/stances alone would have bored me to tears. Oh, and I was also allowed to move into stances and punch at the same time... that's good. Doing it stationary would've also been dull.

+ The people there were very friendly. :)

+ Sensei let me wear my martial arts shoes in training tonight. :) I'm not at all fond of training barefoot... eww. :p Although she prefers students to be barefoot... but honestly, unless I'm sparring with someone, what's the practical reason? Even if I am sparring, these are sparring shoes! They're not street shoes - I don't _ever_ wear them anywhere outside of a martial arts class. But anyway, it's Sensei's choice... so far she's fine with me wearing the shoes, but if she insists that I take them off, I will (her Dojo, her rules).

+ Sensei believes in teaching from the feet up. That doing the stances correctly comes before doing the hands correctly. I could not agree with her more. :)

+ As I suspected, the training techniques are quite good for people who have either never done a martial art or any form of sport, or have underdeveloped physical coordination/skills.

+ The blocks are very "tight" (close to the body) which is more typical of Okinawan Karate than Japanese Karate. The Okinawans tend to have tighter blocks like this (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uf8w6T7-8es/TEwyKst-yyI/AAAAAAAACE8/Gh4P8QAp64w/s1600/Nagamin87.jpg), whereas Japanese Karate typically has more open/outward blocks like this (http://martialarts-karate.info/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/age-uke-Kyokushin.jpg). I did ask Sensei if she knew what style of Karate Kanchou had learnt before creating GKR, but she didn't know (but she said that hopefully I'll get to meet Kanchou someday and I can ask him directly. :)).

The Dubious:

+ This whole "no contact" thing. Now, I'm used to going to schools where students don't spar -- that's actually a very traditional part of martial arts (sparring is more of a modern thing - although I can see the benefit of it)... but the immediate problem I can see here is that students are taught to punch in front of targets, not through them! In Tai Chi - and I'm sure this is the same in most other martial arts - we're taught to plow through our targets. Whenever we hit a pad or shield, we aim to hit past the target, not at it. All their punches are very "retracted"... obviously designed so that beginner students will only stop their punches just short of striking their opponents, but never at them! :confused: Sensei explained to the beginners that in Karate we never hit anyone, we only ever hit in front of them. :confused: So what's the point of practising punches (and later kicks) then? If you don't believe in hitting someone, fine, I can respect that. So use passive defensive techniques that don't involve striking e.g. grappling, throwing, submission, wrestling... more focus on blocking, parrying or even simply evasive manoeuvring (stepping/hopping). I'm just imagining someone trying to defend themselves with these moves by punching the air in front of an attacker's face! :eek: As a result of the no-contact rule, it permeates into _everything_ we do -- not just basic strike practice, but in the way we move into stances and practice kata too. Some of the 'mistakes' that Sensei picked me up on was because I was driving my strikes too much... i.e. because I'm imagining my hits plowing through my targets, not stopping in front of them. So she'd correct me by getting me to hold my strikes back. And you know what the irony is? The Japanese word that they use for "punch" in the Dojo is "zuki" which actually means "to thrust," yet we are taught not to thrust through! :rolleyes:

+ Apparently even when contact is permitted at the higher levels, it's still limited -- no striking below the belt (other than sweeps). So what... no kicking to the shins, striking to the groin, stomping on the foot, taking out the knees etc.??

+ At least one of the stances has been simplified in a way that I find questionable -- this being the "Renojidachi". When Sensei first showed the stance to me, I moved my feet into a traditional Renojidachi position, like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Renojidachi.svg) - the reason why I did this is because the feet position happen to be the same as the 60:40 stance (http://www.kungfufever.com/shaolin/stances/shaolin_statue_18.jpg) that we have in TaiChi/Kung Fu - only that the weight distribution is different (60:40 stance has even distribution like a Riding Horse Stance, whereas I was told the Renojidachi is a "back heavy" stance). Here are some photos of people standing in traditional Renojidachi - the same way that I was initially standing in:
http://ginkage.net/kihon/images/renoji1.jpg
http://www.karatenomichi.ru/articles/photogallery/pics/stojki/renoji_dachi.jpg
http://www.shitoryu.org/skills/stances/images/renojis.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VBQ6NyWawF0/TYHORpyvUgI/AAAAAAAADxk/qcxjZ7VmVd0/s400/RENOJI%2BDACHI.JPG
Btw, "Renojidachi" literally means "The 'Re' character stance," because the feet are meant to form the Katakana character "Re" which looks like this: レ
Sensei told me that the way I stood in Renojidachi was formerly correct, but it's now been changed to widen the stance like this (http://www.sk89.net/taigamae/img/tachimusou.gif)... which naturally opens the groin <wince>. Sensei told me that the reason for this is stability... umm... the traditional version is stable too - so long as the person knows how to stand in their stance properly. Sure, it's harder to achieve... but you know, with effort and practice you can do it. Many martial arts schools test your stances by getting you stand in them and then getting other students to see if they can push you over! If you fall, then you weren't standing in your stance properly. In Tai Chi we do Push Hands, which absolutely requires you to stand in stance properly or you'll fly backwards. The only advantage I can see with the new Renojidachi is that it's easier to teach and learn, because it's technically far more simplistic. Just make sure you're wearing a cup. ;)

+ There's a part of the Kata where I look over my shoulder to an opponent who's behind me, but then I have to move to the opposite side of where I just looked, and therefore turn my back on my opponent! :eek: :confused:

The Different: i.e. stuff I consider neither good or bad, but just different to what I'm used to and will take some time to adjust

+ The whole shouting "KIAI!" thing. If you ever watch people practice Tai Chi forms, we're quiet as church mice - to go from that to "Angry White Pyjamas" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas) is going to take some getting used to! ;)

+ Barefoot training. I really hope Sensei will keep letting me wear my MA shoes. I don't even step onto my front porch with barefeet! Eww. :p Oh, and when we were running around the hall, one student went "OWW!" and told Sensei that she'd just stepped on something sharp. We looked around to see what it was, but couldn't see it. Made me feel glad I had footwear on! :)

+ Stepping into stances with that "inward-outward step" movement. In TaiChi/Kung Fu we just step forward like you do when walking, but in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward. I'm finding this difficult to do at high speed.

Other thoughts:

+ Is it required for instructors to use Japanese terminology? Because my Sensei - in her own admission - struggles with the pronunciation. I have trouble understanding what she's trying to say half the time, and quite frankly... she might as well just speak English to us. I can understand students wanting to familiarise themselves with certain terms in Japanese for the purposes of training w/ Karateka from non-English speaking countries, especially Japan. And it's also really useful if you're doing research into Karate, especially where source materials have never been translated into English. But as far as speaking in classes is concerned, I'm not sure if there's much benefit to constantly speaking poorly pronounced Japanese in the Dojo all the time - and I mean no disrespect to my Sensei by saying this. As I said, Sensei herself admits that she has trouble wrapping her tongue around the Japanese words. For example, the first punch we were taught was what Sensei initially called the "Oo-dan-zuki," which she told us means "Stomach punch." She kept saying, "Oo-dan-zuki" to us, and I kept thinking, "What is this word??" "Stomach punch" would actually be "Hara-uchi" (腹打ち) in Japanese... but then after she taught us the second punch and told us it was "Jodan-zuki," I was like, "Oohh!! She meant "Chuu-dan-zuki!"" (中段突き), which means, "middle level thrust." Right. Also, they gave us a sheet of Japanese terminology for students to learn... the term for the back punch ("yoko ura uchi") was spelt "oko ura uchi." To Sensei's credit she did pronounce it correctly as yoko and told the class that it means "side", which is correct. Cos honestly, what usually happens in class with us beginners is that Sensei tells us the name of a move she wants us to do... and we all look at her confused, then she tells us in English, then we do it. So anyway, looks like on top of learning a new martial art, I have to learn a new dialect of Japanese too... I'ma gonna call it "Sensei-nese." :p

+ Sensei didn't know the name of first form. Oh sorry, I meant "Kata." :p I asked because I was hoping to find a video on it online to help me practise at home. She said that she doesn't remember the names of the first two katas, but remembers the names of all the Katas after that. She's currently learning the Hangetsu Kata and was telling me that she's finding it weird learning the Hangetsu-dachi. I told her that "Hangetsu-dachi" means "Half moon stance," so maybe that might help her visualise how to stand in that position. I just Googled it now and apparently it's a variation of the Sanchin stance -- a core fundamental stance in both Fujian Kung Fu (where it originated from - the word "Sanchin" comes from Fujian Chinese phonology, because in Japanese it should be pronounced as "Sansen";三戦立ち) and Karate. I might discuss this with her next week -- hopefully once she can relate it with the Sanchin stance, then it might make it easier for her to do the Half-Moon stance. Oh sorry, the Hangetsudachi. :p

+ At least two people at the Dojo asked me if I had a family, then asked me why I didn't bring my wife and child to the class. When I told them that my wife just isn't interested in martial arts, they were like, "Why not? Bring her along," etc. And when I told them that my daughter is only 2, they were like, "You can bring her along when she's a bit older." :eek: This felt kinda McDojo and borderline cultish to me. Their payment structure is done so that families who enroll end up paying less, so it encourages people to drag relatives along... but seriously... could you imagine if people were like this at TF meets?? "Hey, where are your wife and kids? What do you mean they didn't want to come this collectible toy fair? Well, make sure you bring them along next time, okay?" :rolleyes:

[Bartrim]

So overall how would you rate your first lesson? I feel that Kalel will be the best person to talk to regarding your concerns. The only thing I can comment on is the C-Step. We do the "C step" or as you put it "in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward." It does take practice but it is a very practical step for taking down an opponent . the way the foot moves in the c-step if done correctly can get behind your opponents foot and used to trip/sweep their leg out.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah right, "C-Step," heh... still getting used to some new terminology and moves. :)

Overall it was pretty basic - as I expected. Although I was pleasantly surprised that Sensei let me learn the first Kata in its entirety... although it is a very basic form; only has one kind of punch, one kind of block and they say it only uses one stance, but in actuality it uses two, because they use a cross-legged stance (http://monkeyfighter.com/images/pinan5/move14.jpg) as a transition when turning around. But I can see how it would be beneficial for people with little sports background or underdeveloped coordination. I've dropped KalEl a PM, so hopefully we'll be able to discuss this in more detail. :)

[KalEl]

So overall how would you rate your first lesson? I feel that Kalel will be the best person to talk to regarding your concerns. The only thing I can comment on is the C-Step. We do the "C step" or as you put it "in GKR we have to move the moving foot inward toward the stationary foot, but not touching it, then outward." It does take practice but it is a very practical step for taking down an opponent . the way the foot moves in the c-step if done correctly can get behind your opponents foot and used to trip/sweep their leg out.
Yes with enough practice it can be done very fast


Ah right, "C-Step," heh... still getting used to some new terminology and moves. :)

Overall it was pretty basic - as I expected. Although I was pleasantly surprised that Sensei let me learn the first Kata in its entirety... although it is a very basic form; only has one kind of punch, one kind of block and they say it only uses one stance, but in actuality it uses two, because they use a cross-legged stance (http://monkeyfighter.com/images/pinan5/move14.jpg) as a transition when turning around. But I can see how it would be beneficial for people with little sports background or underdeveloped coordination. I've dropped KalEl a PM, so hopefully we'll be able to discuss this in more detail. :)
love to chat to you soon about it all :) much easier than typing.

[GoktimusPrime]

Did you get my PM, KalEl?

------------

Did some research^Googling into the first GKR kata -- apparently it's called "Taigyoku" - the one I've learnt is "Taigyoku Shodan*". It appears to be derived from the Taikyoku kata used in traditional Karate styles (e.g. Shotokan, Goju etc.) -- I suspect that Taigyoku may be a corruption of "Taikyoku", because "Taikyoku" is written as　太極** and is the same Kanji as "Tai Chi" (sometimes Anglocised as "Taiji" - in Japanese Tai Chi Chuan is called "Taikyokuken" (太極拳; "Great Extreme Fist")) -- although the similarity to Tai Chi appears to be only in name. I find this form to be more similar to Sport Taekwondo's "Taeguk" form (poomsae); also written in the same Kanji. By comparison, Taeguk is a simplified version of Taigyok/Taikyoku (I say this because TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate - so Taikyoku would have come first) - Taeguk lacks any of the turns (so they don't use the the cross-legged/twisted stance, only using the Forward Stance).

I also finally found some info on the lineage of GKR -- apparently Kancho Sullivan^Sullivan-Kancho*** developed GKR as a hybrid of Goju, Keishinkan and Shotokan.

-----------------------
Semantic Notes:
*Shodan (初段) literally means "First Level", although Sensei translated it as "Level 1" (which would translate as "Ichi-dan" (一段) in Japanese). Japanese speaking Transformer fans often refer to G1 as 初代 (Shodai), meaning "First Generation." ;)
**I suspect that "Taigyoku" is probably a corruption of "Taikyoku," because "Taigyoku" means "Great Jade" (太玉), and I'm not aware of any Karate form or style by that name (although there is a style of Aikido called "Taigyokuryu" ("Great Jade Style")). Taikyoku means "Great Extreme," as opposed to the Smallest Transformers which are called 極小変形 ("Kyokushou Henkei"), meaning "Smallest Transformation". ;)
***My Sensei introduced herself as Sensei-"Jane" (not her real name) and Robert Sullivan as "Kancho Sullivan," e.g. during the beginning and end Keirei Sempai says "Kancho Sullivan rei." I think what's happened here is that they've imposed Germanic word-order onto a Japanese term. Whereas in Germanic (and many other European) languages we put the title before the name (e.g. Dr. Smith, Mademoiselle Dubois, Herr Schmidt etc.) in Japanese the title comes after the name. So it should be Sullivan-Kancho, not Kancho-Sullivan. For example, in the Japanese version of Transformers, Optimus Prime is often called "Convoy-Shireikan" (コンボイ司令官) - "Commander Convoy," but in Japanese word order is literally "Convoy Commander." Also, Japanese people very infrequently use given names - titles are usually attached to family names... which is also the same as European language conventions too. e.g. imagine if there were a school teacher called "John Smith" - for a student to refer to that teacher as "Mister John" would sound strange and arguably lacking in respect. Because "Sensei" is an honorific title, it ought to be preceded by a surname, not a given name. So if my Sensei's name is Jane Doe (not real name), we should be calling her "Doe-Sensei," not "Sensei-Jane." I just call her "Sensei." ;)

____________________________________________

Videos
1. GKR Taigyoku Shodan Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-C61IicT3g): sloppy footwork (http://www.agkk.com.au/resource/zenkutsu_dachi.gif)
2. Shotokan Taikyoku Shodan Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI0hwg3dOQs): Nice looking stances/posture, and clean looking C-steps. :)
3. Taekwondo Taeguk Il Jang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Twp7tL6B6I): sloppy (http://www.taekwondo-information.org/images/taekwondo-basics-front1.jpg) posture (http://www.steveconway.net/stances/images/front_stance.png) (imagine stepping into a Front Stance like that against a grappler!).

[KalEl]

Did you get my PM, KalEl?

------------

Did some research^Googling into the first GKR kata -- apparently it's called "Taigyoku" - the one I've learnt is "Taigyoku Shodan*". It appears to be derived from the Taikyoku kata used in traditional Karate styles (e.g. Shotokan, Goju etc.) -- I suspect that Taigyoku may be a corruption of "Taikyoku", because "Taikyoku" is written as　太極** and is the same Kanji as "Tai Chi" (sometimes Anglocised as "Taiji" - in Japanese Tai Chi Chuan is called "Taikyokuken" (太極拳; "Great Extreme Fist")) -- although the similarity to Tai Chi appears to be only in name. I find this form to be more similar to Sport Taekwondo's "Taeguk" form (poomsae); also written in the same Kanji. By comparison, Taeguk is a simplified version of Taigyok/Taikyoku (I say this because TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate - so Taikyoku would have come first) - Taeguk lacks any of the turns (so they don't use the the cross-legged/twisted stance, only using the Forward Stance).

I also finally found some info on the lineage of GKR -- apparently Kancho Sullivan^Sullivan-Kancho*** developed GKR as a hybrid of Goju, Keishinkan and Shotokan.

-----------------------
Semantic Notes:
*Shodan (初段) literally means "First Level", although Sensei translated it as "Level 1" (which would translate as "Ichi-dan" (一段) in Japanese). Japanese speaking Transformer fans often refer to G1 as 初代 (Shodai), meaning "First Generation." ;)
**I suspect that "Taigyoku" is probably a corruption of "Taikyoku," because "Taigyoku" means "Great Jade" (太玉), and I'm not aware of any Karate form or style by that name (although there is a style of Aikido called "Taigyokuryu" ("Great Jade Style")). Taikyoku means "Great Extreme," as opposed to the Smallest Transformers which are called 極小変形 ("Kyokushou Henkei"), meaning "Smallest Transformation". ;)
***My Sensei introduced herself as Sensei-"Jane" (not her real name) and Robert Sullivan as "Kancho Sullivan," e.g. during the beginning and end Keirei Sempai says "Kancho Sullivan rei." I think what's happened here is that they've imposed Germanic word-order onto a Japanese term. Whereas in Germanic (and many other European) languages we put the title before the name (e.g. Dr. Smith, Mademoiselle Dubois, Herr Schmidt etc.) in Japanese the title comes after the name. So it should be Sullivan-Kancho, not Kancho-Sullivan. For example, in the Japanese version of Transformers, Optimus Prime is often called "Convoy-Shireikan" (コンボイ司令官) - "Commander Convoy," but in Japanese word order is literally "Convoy Commander." Also, Japanese people very infrequently use given names - titles are usually attached to family names... which is also the same as European language conventions too. e.g. imagine if there were a school teacher called "John Smith" - for a student to refer to that teacher as "Mister John" would sound strange and arguably lacking in respect. Because "Sensei" is an honorific title, it ought to be preceded by a surname, not a given name. So if my Sensei's name is Jane Doe (not real name), we should be calling her "Doe-Sensei," not "Sensei-Jane." I just call her "Sensei." ;)

____________________________________________

Videos
1. GKR Taigyoku Shodan Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-C61IicT3g): sloppy footwork (http://www.agkk.com.au/resource/zenkutsu_dachi.gif)
2. Shotokan Taikyoku Shodan Kata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI0hwg3dOQs): Nice looking stances/posture, and clean looking C-steps. :)
3. Taekwondo Taeguk Il Jang (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Twp7tL6B6I): sloppy (http://www.taekwondo-information.org/images/taekwondo-basics-front1.jpg) posture (http://www.steveconway.net/stances/images/front_stance.png) (imagine stepping into a Front Stance like that against a grappler!).

i'm glad you have done some research mate, yes i got your pm, i added you on skype.

[GoktimusPrime]

So I had a chat with a dude who's a retired Sensei who's taught traditional Okinawan Karate for 30 years and asked him about his thoughts on GKR. He said that it is a massively huge club and the people there are really nice and it's a great social opportunity to make friends. He said that their point-sparring/tournament techniques are good (I've heard others say this too) and - as I've often said before - excellent for teaching martial arts novices. He totally agreed with me that it's a good style for someone to start in who has absolutely zero martial arts experience and/or underdeveloped coordination skills.

He then said that most of the people who train in GKR see it just as a 'fun hobby,' i.e. they don't take it very seriously as a fighting form. To them it's just something they do for fun and fitness, perhaps to win comps for sport fighting, but not actual combat fighting isn't something they think about. In that regard, he believes that GKR isn't ideal as an actual combat art because they train for tournament fighting with non-contact etc. - he also spoke about how, in his experience/observation, many GKR practioners lack a lot of basic traditional martial arts skills and make common mistakes like standing on their stances and not in them (he said that whenever he gave a GKR Karateka the "push test" they'd topple over quite easily), and lack the ability to drive any power behind their strikes -- which isn't surprising considering that they teach you to hold your strikes back (because of the non-contact rule) and teach you to punch in front of targets at not through them.

But he also said that this problem isn't unique to GKR - it occurs in a lot of martial arts schools, even many schools of traditional martial arts. And I must say that I do wholeheartedly agree with him there.

[KalEl]

So I had a chat with a dude who's a retired Sensei who's taught traditional Okinawan Karate for 30 years and asked him about his thoughts on GKR. He said that it is a massively huge club and the people there are really nice and it's a great social opportunity to make friends. He said that their point-sparring/tournament techniques are good (I've heard others say this too) and - as I've often said before - excellent for teaching martial arts novices. He totally agreed with me that it's a good style for someone to start in who has absolutely zero martial arts experience and/or underdeveloped coordination skills.

He then said that most of the people who train in GKR see it just as a 'fun hobby,' i.e. they don't take it very seriously as a fighting form. To them it's just something they do for fun and fitness, perhaps to win comps for sport fighting, but not actual combat fighting isn't something they think about. In that regard, he believes that GKR isn't ideal as an actual combat art because they train for tournament fighting with non-contact etc. - he also spoke about how, in his experience/observation, many GKR practioners lack a lot of basic traditional martial arts skills and make common mistakes like standing on their stances and not in them (he said that whenever he gave a GKR Karateka the "push test" they'd topple over quite easily), and lack the ability to drive any power behind their strikes -- which isn't surprising considering that they teach you to hold your strikes back (because of the non-contact rule) and teach you to punch in front of targets at not through them.

But he also said that this problem isn't unique to GKR - it occurs in a lot of martial arts schools, even many schools of traditional martial arts. And I must say that I do wholeheartedly agree with him there.

a problem with such a large club can be inconsistency with teaching and technique, i disagree about the stopping in front theory as it only appears this way because one is punching the air. all techniques should be conducted the a full blooded manner (with adequate control and technical aptitude this is easily possible. (i myself could knock a larger opponent down very easily using standard gkr technique properly).
The term "individual results may vary" would be the best way to take any club, regardless of the training type.
The other thing is the opinion and thoughts of any one instructor may not be correct as a whole nor the correct thing, most grk instructors are student that have progress through a training program, black and white belts can vary from 6th kyu green belt to 1st kyu brown belt. this has itd merits and problems, as i say it can effect consistancy. But by no means am i putting these people down as we all strive to learn and progress.
As i say mate im happy to chat to you some time, i'll pm you when im on.

[GoktimusPrime]

i disagree about the stopping in front theory as it only appears this way because one is punching the air. all techniques should be conducted the a full blooded manner (with adequate control and technical aptitude this is easily possible. (i myself could knock a larger opponent down very easily using standard gkr technique properly).
Last Friday Sensei repeatedly told us that there is "hitting" in Karate, and that our punch techniques are intended to make the fist stop short of actually reaching its target. That's what Sensei told us.

I've always been taught to - as you said, go "full blooded." i.e. to plow my strikes through the target, and not simply at it. But each time I tried punching like this last Friday, Sensei corrected me and got me to retract my punches, negating any driving momentum and force behind it. It felt like trying to drive by putting one foot on the accelerator and the other on the brakes.


The other thing is the opinion and thoughts of any one instructor may not be correct as a whole nor the correct thing, most grk instructors are student that have progress through a training program, black and white belts can vary from 6th kyu green belt to 1st kyu brown belt. this has itd merits and problems, as i say it can effect consistancy.
Well yeah, opinions are just that - opinions. And I was just seeking the opinion of someone whom I consider has some level of authority on Karate being a retired Sensei... at least, a lot more authority than me! :D But at the end of the day, it's an individual's opinion, and I acknowledge that.

While I have some reservations about GKR, I'll reserve my final judgment about it for when I've completed the 3 month trial. If I'd already made up my mind about GKR in a negative way, then I would never have signed up for the 3 month trial, parted with $65 plus $15 for 2 lessons last Friday. And I put in 100% effort - going through all the basics plus learning the entire Taikyoku* Shodan Kata. Sensei kept teaching it to me bit by bit and asked me if I wanted to learn more, and I said yes. The more she taught me the better. :)


But by no means am i putting these people down as we all strive to learn and progress.
Different people learn martial arts for different reason. Not everybody wants to learn it for fighting, and I'm fine with that. But that's why I'm also clear in telling any instructor that I do want to learn for self defence - so that if that's not what their training is geared for, then they'll tell me.

I don't think there's anything wrong with learning a martial art as a fun hobby, sport or form of health/relaxation instead of a fighting form -- but I think in order not to waste people's time and money, it's better for schools to be open about what they or the majority of students are training for. I spoke about this extensively with the salesperson who came by last week, and she assured me that GKR is absolutely geared for realistic self defence combat fighting. If she hadn't vehemently given me that assurance, I wouldn't have bothered signing up. She asked me to give GKR 3 months to "prove itself" to me - after that if I'm still not convinced and I choose to walk away, then no dramas. But if it does manage to convince me, then I will have discovered a new fighting form that suits me. "What have you got to lose?" (apart from $185+ in sign up & lesson fees :p)

So come on GKR... I'm yours for the next 3 months. Bring it! :D

----------------------------
Sorry, I can't bring myself to call it "Taigyoku"... just sounds wrong.

[KalEl]

Last Friday Sensei repeatedly told us that there is "hitting" in Karate, and that our punch techniques are intended to make the fist stop short of actually reaching its target. That's what Sensei told us.

I've always been taught to - as you said, go "full blooded." i.e. to plow my strikes through the target, and not simply at it. But each time I tried punching like this last Friday, Sensei corrected me and got me to retract my punches, negating any driving momentum and force behind it. It felt like trying to drive by putting one foot on the accelerator and the other on the brakes.
.

It's very possible to do full blooded techniques without a driving movement.
As you progress through you will become quite capable of this.

Although a 3 month trial will give you an insight, its not truly a fair amount of time to make a solid opinion, i would suggest once you achieve your yellow belt that you start visiting other classes in you area and especially those with black belt sensei. This which widen your scope and improve your training 10 fold :)

If you get an opportunity to train with Anthony Ryan, take it :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Although a 3 month trial will give you an insight, its not truly a fair amount of time to make a solid opinion, i would suggest once you achieve your yellow belt that you start visiting other classes in you area and especially those with black belt sensei. This which widen your scope and improve your training 10 fold :)
I can visit other GKR classes now - I don't have to stick with the current one. It's just that the current one is at the most convenient location/time for me. If I'm able to make it along to another class, then I'll try... also if I can afford it. I need to start saving my money for some expensive Japanese Transformers that I've preordered (though it usually works out to be lots cheaper than paying aftermarket prices) ;)


If you get an opportunity to train with Anthony Ryan, take it :)
Cheers, I'll keep that in mind if the opportunity ever arises. :cool:

[KalEl]

I can visit other GKR classes now - I don't have to stick with the current one. It's just that the current one is at the most convenient location/time for me. :
i know you can, but i suggest it after yellow belt so than you build a consistent base through one instructor first.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, this is getting hard to properly discuss in text - will have to continue this over Skype. :)

Onto another topic... shoes. What shoes do you guys prefer wearing when you train? (unless you prefer training barefoot, in which case this discussion may be moot for you ;))

My Chen Taiji teacher always recommended tennis shoes (http://cornedbeefhash.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/446194742_0366cd0c19.jpg) because they're designed for the sudden stop and turn plyometric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics) ("explosive ferocity") movement that's used in both tennis and martial arts. He also said that some martial arts shoes, like Kung Fu shoes (http://www.roomaifootwear.com/kungfu/gents1.jpg) actually aren't that ideal for martial arts. Rather the treads on their soles are designed more for linear shuffling forward and backward which beginners are often taught, but of course, in more advanced practice (drills, sparring etc.) you're gonna be doing much more than that! The shoes I currently use in GKR training are Feiyues (http://urbanfreeflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/feiyues.jpg) (view of front sole (http://importantbutnotatall.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/feiyue-white34.jpg)); but it's a Kung Fu shoe which typically is designed for basic linear shuffling rather than plyometric footwork. :/ But I got them now, so I might as well wear them out before buying another pair. I actually bought these Feiyues expressly for the purpose of training with barefoot fighters or in barefoot schools that don't allow hard sole street shoes. They've never been worn outside of a MA school.

But in my regular Tai Chi training I use cheap sneakers - I usually buy cheap tennis/badminton/basketball shoes (e.g. Kmart) because I don't wanna buy good shoes that are gonna cop a lot of physical punishment. I have a pair of Nike basketball shoes that my wife bought for me, but they're far too nice to use for MA training! The shoes I currently use for personal training are running shoes (my wife bought them without understanding the types of soles and footwork required for martial arts). So I'm still using them, but check out the soles...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/soles.jpg
After several months of training the treads have been completely worn out! :eek: And it's not just from plyometric sudden stopping, turning, hopping etc., it's also just from practising stances and doing forms - simple things like moving between Riding Horse Stance (Kibadachi) and Bow Stance (Zenkutsudachi) etc. - in fact, it's always the ball of the foot and heel that wear out first. In some of my previous shoes I've actually worn holes through those areas! :D Btw, these aren't cheap Kmart shoes - they're actually proper Adidas... which is why they still haven't completely fallen apart on me like Kmart shoes would have by now (actually, I would've had to chuck them out long ago). ;)

So these shoes are already past expiry... next time there's a shoe sale I might see if I can get myself a pair of decent tennis shoes. :) But of course, these would probably be considered hard sole street shoes and may not be accepted by barefoot schools. So I'm wondering what I should replace my Feiyues with. Is there a soft-soled shoe (e.g. martial arts shoes) that also have soles designed for plyometric footwork? What about Taekwondo shoes? Looking at some images, it seems that the soles of some TKD shoes like these (http://www.sbtkd.com/store/image.php?type=T&id=16382) have treads designed for sudden turning on the ball and heels of the foot, but the "smooth" appearance of the rest of the sole leads me to wonder how well it caters for the other aspect of plyometric footwork - sudden stopping. But then these TKD shoes (http://www.gungfu.com/media/products/apparel/footwear/apparel-footwear-taekwondo-shoes-a-adidas-child-original-sm-2-martial-arts-black-red-sole-view.jpg) look like they have a sole that does cater for more plyometric movement. I've never worn Taekwondo shoes before, so I'm only guessing from images that I'm looking at - for anyone who's ever worn TKD shoes in training, what are your thoughts?

[Bartrim]

Bare foot for me... Gotta toughen up:p

First lesson back on MOnday after a 2 week break... still sore in the gluts and theighs.:o

[GoktimusPrime]

Hurt my foot this morning cleaning the kitchen. Hopefully will recover before this Friday's lesson.

[Bartrim]

Hurt my foot this morning cleaning the kitchen. Hopefully will recover before this Friday's lesson.

See... you wear shoes and your feet are weak. I train barefoot and my feet are tough as (liquid) nails:p

[KalEl]

Yeah, this is getting hard to properly discuss in text - will have to continue this over Skype. :)

Onto another topic... shoes. What shoes do you guys prefer wearing when you train? (unless you prefer training barefoot, in which case this discussion may be moot for you ;))

My Chen Taiji teacher always recommended tennis shoes (http://cornedbeefhash.files.wordpress.com/2007/04/446194742_0366cd0c19.jpg) because they're designed for the sudden stop and turn plyometric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics) ("explosive ferocity") movement that's used in both tennis and martial arts. He also said that some martial arts shoes, like Kung Fu shoes (http://www.roomaifootwear.com/kungfu/gents1.jpg) actually aren't that ideal for martial arts. Rather the treads on their soles are designed more for linear shuffling forward and backward which beginners are often taught, but of course, in more advanced practice (drills, sparring etc.) you're gonna be doing much more than that! The shoes I currently use in GKR training are Feiyues (http://urbanfreeflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/feiyues.jpg) (view of front sole (http://importantbutnotatall.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/feiyue-white34.jpg)); but it's a Kung Fu shoe which typically is designed for basic linear shuffling rather than plyometric footwork. :/ But I got them now, so I might as well wear them out before buying another pair. I actually bought these Feiyues expressly for the purpose of training with barefoot fighters or in barefoot schools that don't allow hard sole street shoes. They've never been worn outside of a MA school.

But in my regular Tai Chi training I use cheap sneakers - I usually buy cheap tennis/badminton/basketball shoes (e.g. Kmart) because I don't wanna buy good shoes that are gonna cop a lot of physical punishment. I have a pair of Nike basketball shoes that my wife bought for me, but they're far too nice to use for MA training! The shoes I currently use for personal training are running shoes (my wife bought them without understanding the types of soles and footwork required for martial arts). So I'm still using them, but check out the soles...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/soles.jpg
After several months of training the treads have been completely worn out! :eek: And it's not just from plyometric sudden stopping, turning, hopping etc., it's also just from practising stances and doing forms - simple things like moving between Riding Horse Stance (Kibadachi) and Bow Stance (Zenkutsudachi) etc. - in fact, it's always the ball of the foot and heel that wear out first. In some of my previous shoes I've actually worn holes through those areas! :D Btw, these aren't cheap Kmart shoes - they're actually proper Adidas... which is why they still haven't completely fallen apart on me like Kmart shoes would have by now (actually, I would've had to chuck them out long ago). ;)

So these shoes are already past expiry... next time there's a shoe sale I might see if I can get myself a pair of decent tennis shoes. :) But of course, these would probably be considered hard sole street shoes and may not be accepted by barefoot schools. So I'm wondering what I should replace my Feiyues with. Is there a soft-soled shoe (e.g. martial arts shoes) that also have soles designed for plyometric footwork? What about Taekwondo shoes? Looking at some images, it seems that the soles of some TKD shoes like these (http://www.sbtkd.com/store/image.php?type=T&id=16382) have treads designed for sudden turning on the ball and heels of the foot, but the "smooth" appearance of the rest of the sole leads me to wonder how well it caters for the other aspect of plyometric footwork - sudden stopping. But then these TKD shoes (http://www.gungfu.com/media/products/apparel/footwear/apparel-footwear-taekwondo-shoes-a-adidas-child-original-sm-2-martial-arts-black-red-sole-view.jpg) look like they have a sole that does cater for more plyometric movement. I've never worn Taekwondo shoes before, so I'm only guessing from images that I'm looking at - for anyone who's ever worn TKD shoes in training, what are your thoughts?


See... you wear shoes and your feet are weak. I train barefoot and my feet are tough as (liquid) nails:p
I used train 15-20 hrs per week barefoot. They were like concrete. Now not so much lol

[GoktimusPrime]

I fell off a step ladder.

There are pros and cons to using shoes and being barefoot; and I do train barefoot when I'm at home. But otherwise I prefer to train with shoes on... it's my personal preference. Barefoot training in Japanese martial arts didn't start because of podiatry reasons, but because of cultural reasons which - as far as modern Dojos are concerned - aren't relevant anymore (i.e. modern Dojo floors aren't covered with straw tatami mats anymore - they're either bare wooden floors or they have modern mats).

Your Dojo is privately owned by your Karate school, is it not? And I assume that it doesn't get used by anyone else? If so, then you guys have full control of your training hall's floor - in terms of hygiene and hazard prevention. Many other classes are held in hired venues, like school halls or function centres, and don't have that level of absolute control over hygiene and hazards. During last Friday's GKR training one girl pricked her foot on something sharp during warmup. Sensei stopped the exercise and tried to look for what had pricked her foot, but couldn't find it. Now fortunately for the student it was only a slight pricking sensation - Sensei checked her foot and there was no blood. But it could have been worse. Our Karate class is held in a school hall used not only by the Karate club, but by other sports clubs too (e.g. indoor soccer). So from a practical health and safety POV the best way to prevent injuries would be either:
(a) Establish your own exclusive training facility.
(b) Have your students wear shoes during training. Every Tai Chi class I've been too has either been held in a carpeted hall or outdoors in a park or basketball court etc. - not the kind of places I would trust walking barefoot on.
(c) Have your students clean the halls themselves. That's what they do in Japan (http://unreasonable.org/system/files/images/SANY0279.preview.JPG) - every student lines up against a wall and are given a large wet rag. They then get down on their hands and knees and go up and down the hall cleaning the floors. I used to wonder why they don't just use mops, but being on one's hands and feet does mean that you can get a better view of any small hazards that could potentially injure someone during training.

I'm happy to train barefoot at home where I know my floors are clean and hazard free; and I'd be willing to do so in a privately run exclusive martial arts hall - but in a publicly shared hired venue where we can't control what other hirees are doing in there... hrmm... you wouldn't believe the number of times I've been in a hired venue that's been left an absolute mess by previous hirees -- sometimes school furniture/equipment left strewn about, but the worst times is when they leave food scraps around and it's covered in ants, maggots etc.! :eek: <shudder>

Anyway... any advice/comments on the use of Taekwondo shoes?

[KalEl]

I fell off a step ladder.

There are pros and cons to using shoes and being barefoot; and I do train barefoot when I'm at home. But otherwise I prefer to train with shoes on... it's my personal preference. Barefoot training in Japanese martial arts didn't start because of podiatry reasons, but because of cultural reasons which - as far as modern Dojos are concerned - aren't relevant anymore (i.e. modern Dojo floors aren't covered with straw tatami mats anymore - they're either bare wooden floors or they have modern mats).

Your Dojo is privately owned by your Karate school, is it not? And I assume that it doesn't get used by anyone else? If so, then you guys have full control of your training hall's floor - in terms of hygiene and hazard prevention. Many other classes are held in hired venues, like school halls or function centres, and don't have that level of absolute control over hygiene and hazards. During last Friday's GKR training one girl pricked her foot on something sharp during warmup. Sensei stopped the exercise and tried to look for what had pricked her foot, but couldn't find it. Now fortunately for the student it was only a slight pricking sensation - Sensei checked her foot and there was no blood. But it could have been worse. Our Karate class is held in a school hall used not only by the Karate club, but by other sports clubs too (e.g. indoor soccer). So from a practical health and safety POV the best way to prevent injuries would be either:
(a) Establish your own exclusive training facility.
(b) Have your students wear shoes during training. Every Tai Chi class I've been too has either been held in a carpeted hall or outdoors in a park or basketball court etc. - not the kind of places I would trust walking barefoot on.
(c) Have your students clean the halls themselves. That's what they do in Japan (http://unreasonable.org/system/files/images/SANY0279.preview.JPG) - every student lines up against a wall and are given a large wet rag. They then get down on their hands and knees and go up and down the hall cleaning the floors. I used to wonder why they don't just use mops, but being on one's hands and feet does mean that you can get a better view of any small hazards that could potentially injure someone during training.

I'm happy to train barefoot at home where I know my floors are clean and hazard free; and I'd be willing to do so in a privately run exclusive martial arts hall - but in a publicly shared hired venue where we can't control what other hirees are doing in there... hrmm... you wouldn't believe the number of times I've been in a hired venue that's been left an absolute mess by previous hirees -- sometimes school furniture/equipment left strewn about, but the worst times is when they leave food scraps around and it's covered in ants, maggots etc.! :eek: <shudder>

Anyway... any advice/comments on the use of Taekwondo shoes?
1 gripe a have with Gkr is that they should supply the branch sensei each with their own dust mop(broom) so that floors can be swept prior to training to help about issues. I small cost that they should cop if they want to use hire venues.

[5FDP]

I remember the first time I started training bare-foot... I'd dab my feet with metho to toughen them up. After about 2 weeks, all of the skin underneath my feet pealed back and came off like one massive insole. Should've kept them as trophies :cool:

[KalEl]

I remember the first time I started training bare-foot... I'd dab my feet with metho to toughen them up. After about 2 weeks, all of the skin underneath my feet pealed back and came off like one massive insole. Should've kept them as trophies :cool:

lol

[GoktimusPrime]

Eewww gross!!! :eek: :eek:
My feet are as tough as nails (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-XXgNjJ8eQys/T0uyVAt93OI/AAAAAAAAAWo/JG-thg17yu0/s1600/fingernails_care1.jpg) :p ;)

[KalEl]

how long have people been training?

[5FDP]

On and off again for the last 13 years. Now I just train with a mate of mine who's an instructor because with two kids it's hard to make it down to training on a regular basis.

[Bartrim]

Around 2 years. 2-3 classes per week. Only wish I had gotten into it sooner because I love it.

[KalEl]

Around 2 years. 2-3 classes per week. Only wish I had gotten into it sooner because I love it.

i know how you feel

[5FDP]

Around 2 years. 2-3 classes per week. Only wish I had gotten into it sooner because I love it.

Because you love it or you are starting to realise you're getting too old for physical activity? :D

[Bartrim]

Because you love it or you are starting to realise you're getting too old for physical activity? :D

You young whipper snapper. No respect for us oldies:p

Honestly if I was 10 years younger with no commitments (wife, kids, mortgage etc) I would of loved to have a crack at competing in MMA.

[Oldschool78]

Trained Kungfu for 11 years 2-3 times a week. :) Love it

[KalEl]

Trained Kungfu for 11 years 2-3 times a week. :) Love it

awesome

[5FDP]

You young whipper snapper. No respect for us oldies:p


Hang on... I'm pretty sure I'm older than you :confused:

[Bartrim]

Hang on... I'm pretty sure I'm older than you :confused:

Great now I'm old and confused:p

[KalEl]

Great now I'm old and confused:p

Nothiing below the belt, i wanna clean fight :P

[GoktimusPrime]

So had my second GKR lesson today - really sore and tired atm cos I put in 110% effort again, and Sensei made us do "hard and fast" drills - and also when I was practising kata, I forced myself to go hard and fast on it after practising it a few times slowly first.

I arrived early, so before class started I started warming up and practising the Taikyoku Shodan kata on my own. Other students rolled in and were just standing around chatting. I forgot to bring my membership card for Sensei to tick (d'oh!). That's something new I need to get used to.

Started off doing punching and blocking drills, this time in 3 to 5 move combos. What got confusing for me was when Sensei started yelling out the names of these moves in her "Senseinese." I wish she'd just say them in English. (o_O) During some of these drills, students from orange belt and above were doing certain hand moves with open hands, but I was told to keep my fists clenched at all times. Sensei told me that white belts aren't allowed to use open hand techniques because they're considered too dangerous. That's interesting, because in Tai Chi (and other internal Kung Fu styles like Bagua etc.) open hand strikes are considered less dangerous than closed fist strikes. ;) But what I find a bit odd is that I'm expected to keep my hands in closed fists at all times, whereas previously I've been taught to only clench my fist at the moment of impact during a punch -- otherwise I'm to keep my hand relaxed "neutral" guard that is neither fully opened or closed - kinda like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/BruceLeecard.jpg). <shrug>

We also did some more stance practise, this time I was taught the Nekodachi (Cat Stance), Kibadachi (Riding Horse Stance), Sanchindachi (Sanchin (aka "Three Wars") stance) and sumo stance. Sensei then spoke about the importance of stances and how we should be standing in a way where if someone pushed us, we wouldn't fall over - but she didn't know how to verbally describe it in further detail than that (although I could tell she wanted to). She did walk around and push the more experienced students in their Lower Dantian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian) - a green belt moved when she did it, and she said that it shouldn't happen. She pushed the other students who stood firm except one brown belt who was moved. So most of the more senior students were firmly standing in their stances. :)

Then the class was divided -- all students from blue belt and above did Kumite, and the rest of us did Kata. So we had student segregation... beginners with beginners, more experienced students with more experienced students -- no mixing... :( I hope not every lesson is like this, because as I've said before, I think the best way to learn is to train with someone who's _better_ than yourself... and I'm not going to do that if I'm only going to relegated to other junior belts all the time.

So yeah, the rest of the evening was just kata practise for me, which was beneficial because I got to iron out some mistakes I'd been making during my private practise at home. I was watching the other belts do their kumite - there were students from blue to brown belt. All of them were fighting at "noob" long distance range (i.e. punch/kick range). Not once did I see anyone move into intermediate mid-range (e.g. elbowing, punching, clinching etc) or advanced close-in body range. Not even the brown belts. And they were all punching and kicking at their opponents' hands and feet -- nobody seemed to be targeting the head or body or legs or groin etc. (o_O) If someone were to punch or kick in front of me, I don't think I'd even bother trying to defend against that (what's the point? It's not going to make contact unless I stick my hand or leg out there to get hit). At no point did anyone try to close the gap. It looked like what someone once described to me as "tit-for-tat fighting." :eek: I'd love to see these guys go up against anyone who is capable of fighting at mid range or closer. Or anyone with even rudimentary grappling/wrestling skills. ;)

And they all spent a LONG time sparring with each other without any decisive result, especially one brown belt who kept on going and going and going and going and going... it was painful to watch. Whatever happened to Karate's famous motto of 一撃必殺 (ichigeki hissatsu: "one hit one kill")? (o_O) Real fights start and end in a matter of seconds... spending even an entire minute or longer in a single "match" against an opponent seems much too long.

So yeah -- another lesson of complete non contact. But on the whole I did enjoy this lesson more than last week's. Got to do faster moves, combos, more stance work -- great to hear Sensei talk about the important traditional concepts of being "anchored" in one's stance. :) I came home really puffed out, sweating and sore all over from all my repeated kata practise! :D

But boy... I'm dying for some contact! (bad enough my previous Tai Chi school was also complete non-contact too!) *sigh* If it's gonna continue to be complete non-contact, then I might as well bring my strap-on wrist and ankle weights and train with them on... that's what I did during all my Yang Tai Chi lessons. If I'm not going to make contact with anyone, then I might as well chuck in some weight training with my drills and kata stuff.

[KalEl]

But what I find a bit odd is that I'm expected to keep my hands in closed fists at all times, whereas previously I've been taught to only clench my fist at the moment of impact during a punch -- otherwise I'm to keep my hand relaxed "neutral" guard that is neither fully opened or closed - kinda like this (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/51/BruceLeecard.jpg). <shrug>



You are meant to keep your hand in a fist, i doesn't have too be white knuckled clenched though until impact, Therefore you are both right and wrong :P

I think you are seeing very bad examples or gkr sparring/fight potential. Get yourself along to a tournament and watch the open division, or check out some youtube stuff maybe?
It can get quite impressive even for "non-contact"

[KalEl]

How'd you latest session go goki

[Bartrim]

Had a disagreement with my sensei last week. We had 8 people with sparring gear in class so we had a points sparring tournament. Unfortunately I drew him in the first round so I was expecting to lose. I don't know how other points sparring contests work but within Kumiai Ryu only shots from the waist up count and controlled shots to the head. Anyway I was losing as expected but then I decided to change up my attack and threw a feint front leg kick. As my knee reached the correct height instead of throwing my leg out I dropped it back down, closing the gap on my and my sensei and he lowered his arms to block the kick and I hit a nice jab onto his chest. I shouted "Yay 1 for me" and he said it didn't count as I threw a leg kick. I argued that it did count as it was only a feint and not even a kick. End result was he pulled rank and said it didn't count so I lost without getting a point:(

What was interesting was even after we were eliminated we kept fighting other eliminated sparrers to determine ranking. I ranked 4th. Had a chance to rank 3rd but walked into a spinning back fist like a moron. Seriously it is such a telegraphed move I was so dirty on myself for getting hit by it.

[KalEl]

Had a disagreement with my sensei last week. We had 8 people with sparring gear in class so we had a points sparring tournament. Unfortunately I drew him in the first round so I was expecting to lose. I don't know how other points sparring contests work but within Kumiai Ryu only shots from the waist up count and controlled shots to the head. Anyway I was losing as expected but then I decided to change up my attack and threw a feint front leg kick. As my knee reached the correct height instead of throwing my leg out I dropped it back down, closing the gap on my and my sensei and he lowered his arms to block the kick and I hit a nice jab onto his chest. I shouted "Yay 1 for me" and he said it didn't count as I threw a leg kick. I argued that it did count as it was only a feint and not even a kick. End result was he pulled rank and said it didn't count so I lost without getting a point:(

What was interesting was even after we were eliminated we kept fighting other eliminated sparrers to determine ranking. I ranked 4th. Had a chance to rank 3rd but walked into a spinning back fist like a moron. Seriously it is such a telegraphed move I was so dirty on myself for getting hit by it.

I disagree with your sensei entirely. He obviously just didn't like that you bettered him (especially with a simple combination).
The problem you has is it's a case of house rules in the sense that it's your sensei' dojo and being that he is your sensei and a hight rank, one must respectful take the decission on the chin, wrong or right.
I have had this same problem with higher ranks, sometimes it's a one off (maybe they were having a bad day) and others when they clearly are insecure about being bettered.
Personally as the higher rank in a situation like this I take it as a perfect learning opportunity. Sometimes even thanking the opponent or partner. Though this depends on personal relationship with the individual and or their understanding of correct etiquette and respect.

[GoktimusPrime]

From a game/competition POV you may have lost Bartrim, but from an actual martial arts fighting POV I don't think you did anything wrong. :)


I disagree with your sensei entirely. He obviously just didn't like that you bettered him (especially with a simple combination).
The problem you has is it's a case of house rules in the sense that it's your sensei' dojo and being that he is your sensei and a hight rank, one must respectful take the decission on the chin, wrong or right.
I have had this same problem with higher ranks, sometimes it's a one off (maybe they were having a bad day) and others when they clearly are insecure about being bettered.
This attitude seems contradictory to the values of self-control, discipline and humility that martial arts are traditionally supposed to encompass. It also seems kinda odd to have all these strict formalities on rank, address, bowing etc., only to have someone have a whinge like a sore loser. :o Ironically in my Chen Tai Chi school we had no formalities -- no rank, no titles of address (he refused to allow anyone to call him "Shifu" and insisted on first name basis - junior students always referred to all seniors by first names too) we used to bow, but then everyone just gave up. :p Yet there was always mutual respect. If someone got a hit in, it was because their attack was better than your defence. Nobody ever had a cry about it.


Personally as the higher rank in a situation like this I take it as a perfect learning opportunity. Sometimes even thanking the opponent or partner.
Exactly!

If someone gets a hit in because they exploited a weakness in your defence, then you've learnt something!
If someone gets a hit in because you just made a mistake and stuffed up, then you've learnt something!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, onto debriefing about my latest Karate lesson...

Weights

Because previous lessons have all been completely zero contact, I decided to bring along my velcro strap-on wrist and ankle weights. I always used it in Tai Chi, especially my Yang Tai Chi classes where we almost never did apps, just so I can get some weight training done along with practising my form or fighting against thin air. I had intended on arriving to class early to speak to Sensei about it beforehand, but I had some stuff to do after work, so I only arrived just on time to class and I just quickly strapped on the weights because Sensei wanted everyone to line up to do the formalities. The reason for Sensei's objection: because it looks different from everyone else. Yeah, that's seriously what she said.She said that she would speak to her regional director about it. A few other students told me that they thought it was a neat idea to train with weights on - they could immediately see the benefit of practising punches, blocks, kicks and doing kata with weights on. And indeed, I could feel the burn in my arms and legs as I was training! When we did partner work, I took the weights off to avoid contact injury.

At the end of the class, Sensei spoke to me again about the weights and reiterated that she would speak have to speak to her regional director about it (she also said that same thing about the shoes - she still hasn't gotten back to me about it). She then asked me why I wanted to train with weights on (seriously?), and I told her that it was for strength/conditioning (that's the general purpose of weight training, is it not?). She said that she would need to check with on it because using weights is not part of Karate. W (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-66X-0q18L08/ThFdTZWKThI/AAAAAAAAAeI/dKBtNLVezjU/s1600/Kangeiko+2011+018.jpg) h (http://www.shoryukan.com/Graphic/new%20walk%20thru%20dojo/bandwchishi.jpg) a (http://www.eastwindbudo.org/index.php?action=openPage&pageID=16) t (http://www.karateblogger.com/stari/images/hojo%20u1.gif) ? (http://img05.ti-da.net/usr/kuroobikai/DSC00506.jpg) ? (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CzavL68QN_Y/Te4SiwOMLkI/AAAAAAAABf8/_IbWIDWSejU/s640/KONGOKEN.JPG) :eek:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hojo_und%C5%8D

This wasn't some lower belt telling me that weight training isn't part of Karate... this was a black belt Sensei... <speechless>
I told her that the Okinawans traditionally used weights in their training, and she told me that that was a "different style" and that it may not be an accepted part of training in GKR. Now, I just bit my tongue real hard and nodded politely. I could then see her think about it, and then she told me that there might be an issue of insurance, although one of the sempais said that it shouldn't be an issue. <shrug> I told her that when consulting her regional director to please explain it in the context of weight/conditioning training, and that I would always remove the weights if there were any contact/partner work... she didn't seem to be listening at that stage though.

Form over function

Sensei seems to insist on everyone doing everything the way she wants it done, regardless of reason or function. I saw her snap at one of the brown belts because he was doing something a bit differently, and he said that one of the other Senseis taught him to do it that way, and she just yelled, "Well this is my class and you'll do it my way!" (or words to such effect). :eek:

Wow... so different from my Chen Tai Chi teacher who always told us that as long as we weren't getting hit and we weren't compromising ourselves (e.g. leaving openings, being unbalanced etc.), then what we were doing was right, even if it was different from other students or even different from what he was doing. I remember in the beginning I'd practise a defensive move, and I'd do it a bit different from what I was shown, and I'd say, "Oops, I'm sorry, I stuffed that up," and my teacher would say, "You got out of the way and you didn't get hit. It worked just fine!" I much prefer this way of just focusing on what works rather than insisting on conformity for conformity's sake. I prefer function over form rather than form over function.

I had the exact same issue with my Yang Tai Chi teacher -- she also insisted on form over function. Likewise a former colleague of mine who's a black belt in Shorinji Kempo, Kendo and Iai. And in that regard, Sensei shared another thing with my Yang Tai Chi teacher - they both keep telling me that my Bow Stance (Zenkutsudachi) is too 'narrow' and that it's unstable and that I should stand with my legs wider apart... exposing my janglies :eek: This (http://www.training-notebook.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/zenkutsudachi.jpg) is similar to how I stand in forward stance (not quite as narrow as this dude's, but close enough). That's pretty much how my Chen Tai Chi teacher taught me bow stance. Both my Yang Tai Chi & GKR teachers insist that the bow/forward stance should look like this (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mypentaxpics/3755063431/)... each time I practised this wider version of the Forward Stance, I gotta tell ya, the tune for Tchaikowsky's Nutcracker (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBDODIWeKbE) kept playing in my mind! :o Maybe it's because both my Yang Tai Chi and GKR instructors are female... <shrug>

Working with partners!

YES!! :D Oh man... having gone through Yang Tai Chi with bugger all partner contact, and also my initial Karate lessons with no contact it felt so good to be training with a partner again!! :) The training itself was extremely basic, but I was just glad to be doing contact work again. ;)

In each drill, the attacker would step forward with an attack, and the defender would step back with a defence. That's fine; retreating defences is definitely what beginners should be taught. :) Our initial defences involved blocking the attack, and then striking back. When striking back the blocking arm would then return to the hip. In practical fighting apps the spare hand should be guarding, but I understand that for beginners the spare hand is placed on the hip to help them learn how to align their hips/waist into their stances properly -- so as a learning technique, that's fine too... the only thing is, everyone had to do this, even the brown belts. :confused: I can understand we white belts and keeping the spare hand on the hips because we're noobs... but surely anyone above white belt should be keeping their spare hand in guard. :o

At one stage we were practising blocking a forward kick with an inward lower block (Gedan-uke?). Sensei told us to use this to contact the inside of the attacking leg... I didn't think much of it (I guess cos I was just so happy to be doing contact work), but my brown belt partner noticed that something was wrong -- by blocking the inside of the leg, the defender was of course stepping into the attacker's inside, right into danger! It made more sense to block the outside of the leg. My partner mentioned this to Sensei who admitted that she was correct and thus we all practised it correctly after that. I told my partner that she made good call on picking that up - so it all worked out well in the end. :)

Then we did some grappling. The attacker throws a punch, defender uses the "mirror side" hand to push on the outside of the punching arm. Then the "diagonal" (or "cross") arm performs a Kakeuke block and grapple and then punches with the spare hand. There are two parts of this drill that seem dubious to me.
(1) The Kakeuke should begin with the outside of the arm facing the opponent (reference (http://www.ilovegkr.com/pages/techniqu/Blocks/kakeuke.html)). This is really important for two reasons I can think of; (a) it's a basic pre-requisite for sticking, (b) the inside of the arm is soft and weak - if the attacker has a knife they can sever your tendons, or worse, cut a major artery and you could potentially bleed to death.
(2) This drill seems far too complicated - and in its complexity I have doubts over its effectuality in combat. This drill is heavily reliant on overt partner compliance - i.e. after the attacker throws the punch, s/he just leaves it there while the defender three separate moves (block>kakeuke>punch)! :eek: Who in their right mind is going to do that in a real fight??? :confused: I would hate to think that these kinds of drills are giving students false confidence if they seriously think they can defend themselves with this technique as we practised it.

Why not just use the Kakeuke as the initial defence?? If done properly, with the outside of the arm facing the opponent, then you should be able to _stick_ onto the attacking arm, like this (http://www.karatekas.com/tecnicas/tekubikakeuke.jpg). As soon as this contact is made, the kakeuke hand rotates 180 degrees and grapples the arm, dragging the opponent in while the spare hand delivers the punch simultaneously (instead of punching after the grapple -- cos you're naturally going to resist/struggle when someone grabs you, even if it's just instinctually yanking that arm out). Another advantage of doing the grapple and counterpunch simultaneously is that you're dragging the attacker towards you, so not only are you punching them, but their body is actually on a collision course with your fist! :D Here (http://www.thewingchunschool-clapham.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Yip_Man_wooden_dummy.jpg) is a photo of Yip Man (Bruce Lee's Wing Chun Kung Fu master) practising sticking (and here's a photo (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ve8LfyD_gmg/ScoTa7yWBnI/AAAAAAAAALQ/KTJdgCpZ6e8/s320/Chisao.bmp) of him practising it with Bruce Lee himself ;)).

And when I was practising this - again, even the brown belts would simply throw a punch out and leave it hanging. No attempt to resist or block the defender's counteroffensive, even from the senior belts. :( IMO this kind of over-compliance is both counter-intuitive and counter-productive to learning self defence. Some of the brown belts have recommended to me that I should come along to another class on a different day with a different Sensei. Yeah well... easy to do when you're a single young fella... not so hard when you've got work and family commitments to work around. :(

[KalEl]

It seems like your sensei is ignorant and unwilling to learn. To me she sound very disrespectful :(

[GoktimusPrime]

It seems like your sensei is ignorant and unwilling to learn. To me she sound very disrespectful :(
It also seems rather insular to me... as if she's never looked at martial arts outside of her Dojo/system. As someone who carries the title "Sensei", I would expect a higher level of knowledge/expertise about Karate. I was already quite surprised that, as a Sensei, she couldn't even tell me GKR's lineage. And GKR's a modern style of Karate (its founder is still alive!)... it's not like older martial arts where the origins of their styles are really hard to trace due to records being lost or destroyed (if indeed they ever existed).

So anyway, on the advice of some of the brown belts, I went to another class this morning. I'm usually not able to go out on a Sunday morning because my wife usually does stuff and I'm hope looking after the baby (I give her advanced notice if there's any collector fairs/conventions that fall on a Sunday ;)). But this morning she let me go, so yay. :)

So I met another Sensei, and this class had a lot less "down time" compared to the Friday classes. There were quite a lot of new students there, so the entire class had to go through the basics again... I found that kinda frustrating. Why not get one of the brown belts to take the first timers aside and go through the beginning stuff with them, and let the rest of us do other stuff? It's like everyone has to do the same thing, and any time a newbie comes along, everyone else has to go back and do the beginner's stuff all over again. :( He was able to give some of the colour belts more complex variations of what he was teaching the newbies, but as a white belt I had to do it all over again.

On the plus side, I did arrive a bit early and I asked this Sensei if he was cool with martial arts shoes and weights - he said the shoes were fine, and weights were okay as long as they weren't "too obvious" (e.g. bulky, brightly coloured). I showed him the weights and he said they were fine. :) So at least while I had to do all the boring basics again, I managed to get some weight training done. The funny thing was, when we were practising stances even some of the coloured belts were whining about how their legs were hurting. Considering that I was standing there in deep stance with weights on my wrists and ankles, and that I often practice my Tai Chi forms slowly with weights, and in Chen Tai Chi we often meditated in our stances (sometimes holding up to 29 postures! :eek:) I had no sympathy for these people who were just whinging about holding two stances for a minute. ;)

Sensei took all the white belts through first kata - he then allowed me and three other white belts who had already learnt first kata to learn second kata. Which is basically the same as first kata with some punches and kicks added. :rolleyes: Sensei just looked at me and told showed me the punch and kick for the 'sideways' movements, and the kick and punch for the 'lengthwise' movements, then told me to lead the others through it! :cool: :)

No contact work today though. :( Just drills in the air and kata.

I had an interesting chat with Sensei after class, because in the beginning Sensei asked me if I had done martial arts before, and I told him that I've done some Tai Chi and I also explained that I was interested in learning martial arts for self defence. Sensei and I discussed GKR and its effectiveness in self defence both before and after the lesson, and these are some things that this Sensei said about GKR:

+ One big problem is the fact that GKR teaches students from the very beginning to hold back and pull their hits. To always stop short in front of the targets and not through them; so students don't start off learning how to issue power and their strikes are often ineffectual.

+ Kumite and competitions impose lots of restrictive rules, and once you introduce rules, your fighting form becomes less effective. He said that some GKR fighters get a rude surprise when they go to train in Dojos in Japan where Japanese fighters will just begin the fight with a sharp kick to the family jewels and drop them like a sack of potatoes. He said that Kumite really doesn't well prepare students for a real fight.

+ I told Sensei that 2 weeks ago I had witnessed the coloured belts on Friday sparring in Kumite, and it was all long-range "tit-for-tat" fighting... like aggressive patty-cake... but nobody tried to close the gap, not even elbow/kneeing range. Sensei nodded and said that was no surprise because the students are all too afraid to come any closer! So because of the point-scoring nature of Kumite, it allows them to comfortably play patty-cake with hands and feet, but ill prepares them to get any closer. Sensei said that if you ever just go right up close to the average GKR fighter, they'll freak out and they won't know what to do! I told him that I would wonder how they would handle fighters that specialise in up-close fighting, like Brazilian Jujutsu - and he said, yeah... they just wouldn't cope. And since I'd brought up BJJ...

+ GKR has does no grappling, wrestling or throwing, and as such doesn't teach breakfalls. He said that none of his students know how to fall - and even he only learnt how to grapple and fall by Jujutsu - and that GKR itself never equipped him for any of that.

+ Sensei said that as a fighting system GKR is 'incomplete'. He said that their defences are good in terms of blocks (I suppose only good against basic long range attacks -- I'd like to see how GKR fighters would defend against more advanced mid to close range fighters including grapplers and wrestlers etc.) but their attacks are lacking. He told me that I want to learn a fighting form, then I might consider looking elsewhere. He also said that if I'm already trained in another style then it'd be more beneficial to continue doing it rather than starting from scratch with another style. I explained to him that my Yang Tai Chi school: (a) doesn't teach apps and rarely has contact work, and (b) only has ONE class a week, which happens to occur on the one day that I have to work late. :( So I joined GKR because I was desperate for some kind of martial arts training instead of just sitting on my bum thinking about it. ;)

So Sensei gave me some interest food for thought and I must say that with what I've seen and experienced of GKR so far, I'm inclined to agree. But I'll keep persevering through the rest of my three-month trial period and see if GKR shows me anything that will convince me to stay on. I've already started making friends with some of the brown belts there... I'm thinking that if I decide to drop out after the trial period, I might keep in contact with them and we might cross-train with each other privately. :)

I must say kudos to this Sensei for his no-nonsense approach and open honesty in his discussion with me. Another thing I found out though... GKR Senseis are unpaid! :eek: They're all volunteers who don't receive a single cent for their teaching (other than maybe a paltry token $30 "bonus" around Xmas). :eek: Now... considering how much money GKR generates (I often hear other students talk about how expensive GKR is; just this morning I heard 2-3 students complain about it) surely they can afford to pay the Senseis some money for their time and effort! Sensei was like, "Well we all do it for the love of the sport," yeah but... dude, it's your _time_. Everybody's time is important... and considering that GKR is reputed to be such a big business, surely they can afford to pay their teachers (fair pay for fair work). :(

[KalEl]

It also seems rather insular to me... as if she's never looked at martial arts outside of her Dojo/system. As someone who carries the title "Sensei", I would expect a higher level of knowledge/expertise about Karate. I was already quite surprised that, as a Sensei, she couldn't even tell me GKR's lineage. And GKR's a modern style of Karate (its founder is still alive!)... it's not like older martial arts where the origins of their styles are really hard to trace due to records being lost or destroyed (if indeed they ever existed).

So anyway, on the advice of some of the brown belts, I went to another class this morning. I'm usually not able to go out on a Sunday morning because my wife usually does stuff and I'm hope looking after the baby (I give her advanced notice if there's any collector fairs/conventions that fall on a Sunday ;)). But this morning she let me go, so yay. :)

So I met another Sensei, and this class had a lot less "down time" compared to the Friday classes. There were quite a lot of new students there, so the entire class had to go through the basics again... I found that kinda frustrating. Why not get one of the brown belts to take the first timers aside and go through the beginning stuff with them, and let the rest of us do other stuff? It's like everyone has to do the same thing, and any time a newbie comes along, everyone else has to go back and do the beginner's stuff all over again. :( He was able to give some of the colour belts more complex variations of what he was teaching the newbies, but as a white belt I had to do it all over again.

On the plus side, I did arrive a bit early and I asked this Sensei if he was cool with martial arts shoes and weights - he said the shoes were fine, and weights were okay as long as they weren't "too obvious" (e.g. bulky, brightly coloured). I showed him the weights and he said they were fine. :) So at least while I had to do all the boring basics again, I managed to get some weight training done. The funny thing was, when we were practising stances even some of the coloured belts were whining about how their legs were hurting. Considering that I was standing there in deep stance with weights on my wrists and ankles, and that I often practice my Tai Chi forms slowly with weights, and in Chen Tai Chi we often meditated in our stances (sometimes holding up to 29 postures! :eek:) I had no sympathy for these people who were just whinging about holding two stances for a minute. ;)

Sensei took all the white belts through first kata - he then allowed me and three other white belts who had already learnt first kata to learn second kata. Which is basically the same as first kata with some punches and kicks added. :rolleyes: Sensei just looked at me and told showed me the punch and kick for the 'sideways' movements, and the kick and punch for the 'lengthwise' movements, then told me to lead the others through it! :cool: :)

No contact work today though. :( Just drills in the air and kata.

I had an interesting chat with Sensei after class, because in the beginning Sensei asked me if I had done martial arts before, and I told him that I've done some Tai Chi and I also explained that I was interested in learning martial arts for self defence. Sensei and I discussed GKR and its effectiveness in self defence both before and after the lesson, and these are some things that this Sensei said about GKR:

+ One big problem is the fact that GKR teaches students from the very beginning to hold back and pull their hits. To always stop short in front of the targets and not through them; so students don't start off learning how to issue power and their strikes are often ineffectual.

+ Kumite and competitions impose lots of restrictive rules, and once you introduce rules, your fighting form becomes less effective. He said that some GKR fighters get a rude surprise when they go to train in Dojos in Japan where Japanese fighters will just begin the fight with a sharp kick to the family jewels and drop them like a sack of potatoes. He said that Kumite really doesn't well prepare students for a real fight.

+ I told Sensei that 2 weeks ago I had witnessed the coloured belts on Friday sparring in Kumite, and it was all long-range "tit-for-tat" fighting... like aggressive patty-cake... but nobody tried to close the gap, not even elbow/kneeing range. Sensei nodded and said that was no surprise because the students are all too afraid to come any closer! So because of the point-scoring nature of Kumite, it allows them to comfortably play patty-cake with hands and feet, but ill prepares them to get any closer. Sensei said that if you ever just go right up close to the average GKR fighter, they'll freak out and they won't know what to do! I told him that I would wonder how they would handle fighters that specialise in up-close fighting, like Brazilian Jujutsu - and he said, yeah... they just wouldn't cope. And since I'd brought up BJJ...

+ GKR has does no grappling, wrestling or throwing, and as such doesn't teach breakfalls. He said that none of his students know how to fall - and even he only learnt how to grapple and fall by Jujutsu - and that GKR itself never equipped him for any of that.

+ Sensei said that as a fighting system GKR is 'incomplete'. He said that their defences are good in terms of blocks (I suppose only good against basic long range attacks -- I'd like to see how GKR fighters would defend against more advanced mid to close range fighters including grapplers and wrestlers etc.) but their attacks are lacking. He told me that I want to learn a fighting form, then I might consider looking elsewhere. He also said that if I'm already trained in another style then it'd be more beneficial to continue doing it rather than starting from scratch with another style. I explained to him that my Yang Tai Chi school: (a) doesn't teach apps and rarely has contact work, and (b) only has ONE class a week, which happens to occur on the one day that I have to work late. :( So I joined GKR because I was desperate for some kind of martial arts training instead of just sitting on my bum thinking about it. ;)

So Sensei gave me some interest food for thought and I must say that with what I've seen and experienced of GKR so far, I'm inclined to agree. But I'll keep persevering through the rest of my three-month trial period and see if GKR shows me anything that will convince me to stay on. I've already started making friends with some of the brown belts there... I'm thinking that if I decide to drop out after the trial period, I might keep in contact with them and we might cross-train with each other privately. :)

I must say kudos to this Sensei for his no-nonsense approach and open honesty in his discussion with me. Another thing I found out though... GKR Senseis are unpaid! :eek: They're all volunteers who don't receive a single cent for their teaching (other than maybe a paltry token $30 "bonus" around Xmas). :eek: Now... considering how much money GKR generates (I often hear other students talk about how expensive GKR is; just this morning I heard 2-3 students complain about it) surely they can afford to pay the Senseis some money for their time and effort! Sensei was like, "Well we all do it for the love of the sport," yeah but... dude, it's your _time_. Everybody's time is important... and considering that GKR is reputed to be such a big business, surely they can afford to pay their teachers (fair pay for fair work). :(

what previous ma experience do you have if you don't mind me asking :P
i had suggested you check out other classes :P
and though senseis are unpaid, they do receive more than 30 dollars. (when i taught it was 5 % of your classes takings over the year up to i think 500 dollars) and all of a senseis training is free.

a problem that occurs with gkr is that their senseis do not usually have enough experience when they begin teaching, imo i can understand well knowledge colour belts being sempais but only black belts should be eligible for a sensei role and only if ready.
When i completed my sensei training (all be it it was a hell of a lot harder 10years ago to get in) i was a yellow belt, i was then triple graded which is extremely rare. but i was naive and didn't quite understand it all then. Not to blow my own horn but i excelled fairly quickly but again this doesn't always happen.

[GoktimusPrime]

what previous ma experience do you have if you don't mind me asking :P
Primarily Tai Chi; initially Chen style, then more recently Yang style.

I have encountered several different martial arts before - because I like to cross-train with people who do different styles (so I don't just get used to fighting against people who do the same style as me). As far as Karate's concerned, I have dabbled in Goju Karate and Kobudo. And I have observed some Kyokushinkai, Shotokan, Seidokan and some other non-traditional styles whose names I can't remember. In Sydney there are lots of Karate Dojos with style names that I've never heard of and have never been able to authenticate either.


i had suggested you check out other classes :P
That's why I went to this Sunday's class. :) I wanted to see what GKR was like under a different Sensei. As I said, it's harder for me now to get the time to check out every class when I'm working around work and family commitments. If I can find the time to attend another class on another day, then I will... but as it is, Friday night is the most convenient for me.


a problem that occurs with gkr is that their senseis do not usually have enough experience when they begin teaching, imo i can understand well knowledge colour belts being sempais but only black belts should be eligible for a sensei role and only if ready.
One would assume that a Sensei is a black belt and even then preferably above first dan, since "Shodan" literally means "Beginners Level." When I trained in or observed Dojos in Japan, there would often be nobody in the Dojo with the title "Sensei." Some Dojos would have maybe 1/3 of the class being black belts, but none of them held the title "Sensei" despite being black belts - not even the ones that were the instructors. The first class I ever attended in Japan; when I called the instructor "Sensei," he and the other black belts laughed and told told me that he was by no means a "Sensei," just a "captain." So it seems that it's much rarer in Japan for someone to achieve the title of "Sensei" -- which is a very honorific term that's usually reserved for someone who has achieved mastery in their field (as "Sensei" can also translate as "master").

Then again, I find that Dojos in Japan and Australia seem to run quite differently. For one thing, Japanese Dojos only have three belts - white, brown, black. A student stays on a belt for about 1 year, so it takes about 3 years to get a black belt, which makes sense, cos you don't want to spend too long before you become a Beginner Shodan. ;) I think that because in Japan it's faster to get a black belt, it's also not as big a deal, especially when 33% of the class are black belts. One of the brown belts in Friday's class told me it may take six years of persistent training to get a black belt in GKR! :eek: :confused: You can complete a double university degree in that time...


When i completed my sensei training (all be it it was a hell of a lot harder 10years ago to get in) i was a yellow belt, i was then triple graded which is extremely rare. but i was naive and didn't quite understand it all then. Not to blow my own horn but i excelled fairly quickly but again this doesn't always happen.
I think it makes perfect sense to accelerate students if they demonstrate enough proficiency. I see no point in holding students back just for the sake of "timing conformity."

Both my Chen and Yang Tai Chi teachers would often accelerate students if they showed proficiency, especially if they had prior martial arts experience. When I did Yang Tai Chi, I told the instructor that I'd done Chen style before. After we did some basic stuff, she just skipped me right past the first form and got me right into the second form. And later she forgot that she did this, and when we had some new students come along who had NO previous experience, she asked me to teach them the beginners 8 step form, and I was like... I don't know this form! I can only show them the 24 step form which would probably confuse the hell out of them! :p

So yeah... I'm hoping that within my 3 month trial my Senseis will allow me to accelerate through some stuff. And to be honest, they have let me progress a bit faster. On Friday I did a drill that involved Kake-uchi, and open handed technique, and both Senseis keep telling me that white belts are only allowed to do close fist stuff. I'd never even been shown Kake-uchi before, I was just told to do it -- but I picked it up easily enough. :) And today I was taught the second Taigyoku kata despite only being my fourth lesson... is that fast?

Anyway... all I can do is keep giving Sensei 110% of my effort, which I always do... and hopefully demonstrate sufficient proficiency to convince them to push me along faster. :)

[Bartrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dADz2E5xcmc

A funny boxing match. I love when people claim to be street fighters and think they are so tough only to be KTFO. This guy had no technique and I was surprised that the fight lasted aslong as it did.

On a serious note I am concerned over whoever gave this guy a fighters licence when it is clear he wasn't ready to box professionally. This could easily lead to someone untrained suffering a serious injury.

[Oldschool78]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zStRY4q502A&feature=related

Check out the last fight on this clip.

[Bartrim]

Lyoto Machida vs Ryan Bader has been announced as the headline fight for UFC on FOX in August. Two of my favourites going against each other on free to air. Don;t have to buy a PPV to watch them two fight:)

[KalEl]

Lyoto Machida vs Ryan Bader has been announced as the headline fight for UFC on FOX in August. Two of my favourites going against each other on free to air. Don;t have to buy a PPV to watch them two fight:)

awesome

[GoktimusPrime]

One of my colleagues practices Yang Tai Chi, but she's recently started learning Chen style - as opposed to me who started with Chen Tai Chi then moved onto Yang. ;) It was funny... she was telling me that she's finding Chen style difficult because she finds it "so different" from Yang, whereas I find Yang trickier because I started with Chen. :D For those who may not know, Chen style is generally uses more "broader" circular and "explosive" movements, whereas Yang is relatively more linear and their footwork lacks the ferocity of Chen.

[GoktimusPrime]

Had a rather unproductive lesson tonight despite the fact that we had TWO senseis in the school. (-_-)

3 things that I found disappointing tonight:

(1) The partner that I worked, who's like 5 levels above me (but the 2nd most junior ranking student; so we got paired together) just has NO idea on anything... stances were virtually non-existent, no concept of distance and absolutely no concept of putting any force behind the punches (even in non-contact, you can tell when someone throws a proper, solid & forceful punch). Really... I had NO reason to even try and counter my partner's punches as they ended so far away that they weren't even making contact. And if they did... my 2 year old hits harder than that. *sigh*

(2) No partner rotation. I was stuck working with that same partner all night. :( *sigh* Last week was better when we rotated - got to work with some brown belts too.

(3) Endless use of repetitive rote learning :mad: I know that there are benefits to rote learning in the beginning of a lesson when you're familiarising students with core concepts, but once you've done that, then bloody well move on and engage in some more deep learning! But our entire lesson was based on moving from one rote activity to another. I would never even teach a Year 7 class entirely in rote (they'd go absolutely bonkers from boredom for one thing)... this was an adult class... people who are cognitively developed.

This is like my Yang Tai Chi school all over again - cos that was endless rote learning too. Teaches you the moves just fine... but did teach me to use it in a fight? Nope! Likewise each lesson I'm feeling more and more confident in executing moves and doing the katas... but do I feel like I could use any of these moves if someone suddenly jumped me in a dark alley? I doubt it. Even beginners should be able to execute what they've learnt instinctively appropriate to their ability level. i.e. a beginner should be able to execute beginner level moves like it was second nature. e.g. if some tried to kick me, I should block it with a basic gedan-barai without thinking about it. But if you kicked me now, that would not naturally come to me. Conclusion: I do _not_ have a deep understanding of gedan-barai. I can do it in a kata, I can do it in a drill (either single or with a partner) just fine... but unless I can do it in a more spontaneous scenario (e.g. spontaneous/randomised partner work, sparring etc.) then my knowledge of this block is only superficial.

The Sensei I spoke to on Sunday told me that they do lose student retention because people don't like the repetition -- and previously when I've spoken to people who "used to do Karate," and I asked them why they stopped, they usual answer is "It was too repetitive and it got boring." Sensei said that people today lack patience... well... then adapt and create more engaging lessons!! That's something that classroom teachers face everyday. It's a FACT that kids today are used to being constantly stimulated -- from the moment they wake up they have television, mobile phones, computers etc. -- then they sleep. Generation Y are used to constant stimulation. And Generation Z (those born in 1995 or later) are gonna be even worse, as they are the first generation of people who have never known the world without the internet. My daughter already knew how to shuffle through photos on a smart phone when she was 1. Welcome to the digital generation.

[GoktimusPrime]

Went to a Thursday night class today - "new" (to me) Sensei and students. Unfortunately yet another mundane lesson... everything was very set routine, repetitive... extremely basic (even the stuff the coloured belts were doing). Everything seemed geared toward "performance" -- doing the moves nicely, doing the katas nicely. At NO point did we do any work that was remotely useful for direct fight applications. This is really a lot like my Yang Tai Chi school all over again. It's like most people are "forms collectors," more interested in just collecting forms, collecting forms, but nobody seems interested in using forms. (-_-)

So anyway, I'm nearing the end of my first month of GKR - and from tomorrow I will have attended seven lessons and I don't feel satisfied - certainly don't feel like I've gotten by $60 worth so far ($70 after tomorrow night), on top of the $65 3 month trial membership fee. :( I've attended 1.75 lessons per week, and so far all I've learnt has been:
+ 6 stances, but only taught applications for 3-4 of them (and Heikodachi isn't even a fighting stance).
+ Four punches, but have mostly practised this against thin air.
+ 6 blocks, mostly practised against thin air. I've only done partner work TWICE, and the second time my partner was so massively out of range (as one Sensei said, a lot of these students seem too scared to come in really close)... I was getting more benefit out of fighting thin air!
+ NO randomised/spontaneous drillwork. In the two times we did partner work, everything was set routine - the entire class had to even attack and defend simultaneously... it was completely choreographed! At NO time were we allowed to do partner work at our own pace! :eek: :eek:
+ No sparring. Now I can accept this, as sparring isn't a traditional martial arts practice (although it is useful) -- and I can certainly understand not allowing junior grades to spar. But traditional martial arts schools will still allow beginners to do contact partner work with random/spontaneous elements constantly thrown in (so it becomes kinda like "controlled miniature sparring").

So after dishing out $125 in fees ($135 after tomorrow), and attending 1.75 classes per week, after my first month of GKR I've paid a lot of money and learnt very little in return. Everything I've seen has reinforced my perception that GKR seems useful for people who have zero prior martial arts or sports experience and below-average motor skills.

Then there's this (http://www.gkrkarate.com/index27.php?x=ABOUT-GKR~Yellow-Belt-8th-Kyu|History-of-First-and-Second-Kata^%60):
Interesting things to note about the history of Taikyoku Shodan Kata, according to the official GKR web site...
+ It was created in the 20th Century in Japan, thus it is NOT a traditional Okinawan Karate kata.
+ It was created with the explicit intention of simplifying Karate when it was taught to children in public schools.

This explains everything. It explains why the kata is so incredibly simple and why the training seems aimed at teaching people with underdeveloped motor skills... because that was its original intent!! Now when it comes to teaching children who have immature motor skills and many have limited athletic experience, yes, this makes perfect sense. But when teaching:
+ Adolescents and adults who have matured motor skills
+ Adolescents and adults who have experience in a previous kind of physical activity (e.g. sport, dance, another martial art)
...I fail to see the benefit of teaching us in such a slow and basic manner. Other than massively prolonging learning and making students attend more classes and pay more fees before they can get up to the point where they can start to learn some actual decent fight techniques. Everything continues to be superficial rote learning with no real focus on deep knowledge. I see students learning how to memorise the performance of katas and techniques like just regurgitating knowledge (which is what rote learning does), but as I've said before, I still see even brown belts who can't stand in stance properly (:eek:). Tonight Sensei had to correct some of the coloured belts because they couldn't make a proper fist. Coloured belts... these people have trained for years to attain these ranks and they can't make a decent fist?? :confused: Perhaps this is another result of constantly punching thin air and having no contact -- because if you slog a pad or boxing bad with a sloppy fist, you'd feel it!

Each time I go to GKR I think of what Bruce Brazos said to Sam Witwicky in Dark of the Moon: "Impress me.". Two more months to go...

[GoktimusPrime]

Btw, one good thing I liked about last night's Sensei -- she spoke ENGLISH! I mean, when she wanted us to do a head high punch, she said "Head high punch"! :D So much more understandable than the Senseis who speak in "Senseinese". But still... a few words she tried to say in Japanese and I had no clue what she was saying.

I've been to 6 GKR Karate lessons so far, and it's only dawned on me about 5 minutes ago what "Hai-koo-dach" is... because I keep on thinking "Haiku stance?" Do they want us to stand in 5-7-5 syllable structures?!? :confused: :p But they're actually trying to say Heikoudachi (平行立). O M B G ! :eek: Seriously... if you can't say it right, just say "Open Parallel Stance." Then everyone will know what it means! For anyone who may not know, it's said like "Hey-koh-dah-chi", and _not_ "High-koo-duch" like all my Senseis say it.

I once met a Kenjutsu Sensei -- German fellow, who pronounced "Sensei" in the German way, so he said "Sen-sigh" (like how "ei" is pronounced in German words like "Nein" and "Einstein" etc.) :rolleyes:

[GoktimusPrime]

Finally got to spar!! :D \(^O^)/

...but it's meant to be non-contact sparring, which feels completely counter-intuitive to me. How are you meant to spar without making any for of contact? When I spar I make _light_ contact, what I call "tip-sparring" where I just lightly tap the target (e.g. face, shoulder, chest, stomach etc.) like when someone taps you on the shoulder to get your attention or when kids play tips at school -- that amount of force (or lack thereof). It's enough for you to feel that I've made contact, but it doesn't hurt. But nonetheless, any time I even made light contact my partners or Sensei would be quick to remind me, "Hey, it's non-contact!"

And I wasn't contacting just to be a Dojo-troll... but as I'm sure you can all appreciate, when you've had some martial arts training, when you go into a sparring situation you just go on automatic instincts based on your training. There's little conscious thought. And my training is to penetrate my opponent, not stop in front of them. So I had to work really hard to pull back all my moves, but it's hard and goes against everything I've been taught! It was a lot like the G1 cartoon - where everyone just shoots around each other like Imperial Stormtroopers, but hardly anyone actually hits their target!
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Photocomic%20Henkei%20Prowl/photocomic_henkeiprowl_a03.jpg
People just stand there throwing punches in front of each other like pew pew pew pew pew pew pew, but nobody ever lands a hit. Or imagine playing a game of Chess where it's against the rules to Check your opponent! :eek:

The Sensei from Sunday was absolutely right -- all I had to do was get really close and they just didn't know what to do. Everyone else was just standing in their spots and throwing punches at each other, like Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots. I advanced in on my partners, so we ended up move around half of the hall (as my partners kept back-pedalling in desperate attempts to distance themselves away from me - but I can walk/leap forward faster than they can backstep!). I decided to give my first partner a sporting chance and I put one hand behind my back to fight him with one hand. He asked me, "What's wrong with your hand?" and I said, "Nothing. I just wanna give myself a challenge." ;) But still, because I kept closing the gap, he just didn't know how to effectively counter me.

With my second partner it was a similar story... so I just started walking aggressively toward her, but otherwise using no technique. I didn't have a proper guard up, no stances, I left myself completely wide open... the only thing was I was walking into her personal space - much like a schoolyard bully does when they want to intimidate you by invading your personal space. That's it. Then she tried to plow a hit into me... not very well, and I grabbed one shoulder and spun her around 90 degrees so that her back was facing me -- a precursor to doing a headlock, but I didn't go ahead with the headlock (being all non-contact and stuff)... I just had my hands on the shoulders... not even tightly -- but it completely freaked her out, so I stopped sparring with her after that. :(

With my third partner... dear me... she would randomly block and punch the air. Like I hadn't even thrown a punch, she would do a block. What's she blocking?? Then when I throw a punch and stop it front of her, a few seconds later she'd block. Yeah, kinda late. :rolleyes:

With my next partner; a brown belt, I just decided to go on the defensive... he kept throwing all these punches at me which were easy to block. So then I used one hand... yeah, easy enough. Then I put both my hands behind my back and started dodging/evading punches or blocking them with my shoulders -- then I went on the offensive (with no hands)... so again, just needed to get in close before my partner started struggling with what to do with me. But even then, I wasn't even charging that hard (because again, I was seriously restraining myself for the sake of "non contact"). Then that was the end of sparring, and we went back to good old rote learning fighting against the air and practising katas (but no applications!) for the remainder of the lesson.

I'm finding this non-contact rule... difficult to work with. Oh, and there was another newbie there today - first lesson tonight, but he'd done Kyokushin Karate before. And after the lesson when I spoke with him he did mention how incredibly easy everything felt. And one of the brown belts I spoke with before class did say that the learning curve in GKR is v e r y slow; and I said that I can see how that would be beneficial for children and people with underdeveloped motor skills (or learning difficulties)... but for adults with average motor skills and learning ability, I find it to just be too slow, and the brown belt agreed with me.

Active associative learning >>>>>>>>>>> rote learning.

Btw... is anyone still reading this? If not, then I'll stop logging my GKR journey here. I won't be offended at all if nobody wants to read about it - seriously. If only 1 or 2 people are interested maybe I can continue it in PM rather than hogging the thread here. :)

[Oldschool78]

I like to read them. Its a good insight into a newbs point of view in a new club. Helpful too, as you've tried different styles.

[KalEl]

I'm still reading them. Too bad your not in Vic. I could show you what gkr karate has the potential to do :p

[Bartrim]

I read them. I find them quite interesting. Although I will say this. I think you are way to critical of every school you attend. It seems like you are on this quest to find the perfect martial art, which will never happen as none of them are perfect. It just seems like you go from school to school learning bits and pieces but not really getting anywhere because as no school can live up to your high expectations so you just move on.

Mind you I say that only coming into this thread two years ago when I started actively training. I'm not 100% certain of your training methods or history prior to then.

[KalEl]

I read them. I find them quite interesting. Although I will say this. I think you are way to critical of every school you attend. It seems like you are on this quest to find the perfect martial art, which will never happen as none of them are perfect. It just seems like you go from school to school learning bits and pieces but not really getting anywhere because as no school can live up to your high expectations so you just move on.

Mind you I say that only coming into this thread two years ago when I started actively training. I'm not 100% certain of your training methods or history prior to then.

I am enclined to agree I think you (goki) are expecting to much and underestimating what is right in front of you. You have to be an empty cup, but your cup seems to be full and all the training you do now just flows right off the top. As I've said before 3months is not a fair period to assess any martial arts properly regardless of prior experience. Your sinercism toward it won't give you a fair outlook on it. Don't get me wrong I'm not attacking you, but you need to empty that cup.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm looking at everything from a self defence POV, because that's my reason for learning martial arts. It's what I told the GKR rep and I've said the same thing to my Sensei. I told the rep that I'm _not_ interested in learning martial arts for competition, and she assured me that GKR IS geared for purely self defensive training. It was under that assurance that I agreed to the 3 month trial period.

My comments about my GKR training have been focused around one thing: Is this teaching me to fight? -- simple as that. I am NOT at any stage criticising it because it's different from Tai Chi or what not... I don't mind different, as long as it gets the job done and performs the function of teaching me how to fight, and how to fight well.


I am enclined to agree I think you (goki) are expecting to much and underestimating what is right in front of you. You have to be an empty cup, but your cup seems to be full and all the training you do now just flows right off the top.
Honestly... compared with the traditionalists that I used to train with... my standards are LOW. I am NOT a high level martial artist... don't let the gut fool you. :p If you met any of the guys I used to train with, you'd know that I'm by NO means advanced and my standards really aren't that high -- by traditional martial arts standards.

And if I'd initially thought that GKR was completely rubbish, I wouldn't have bothered paying $65 for the trial membership and rocking up to 1.75 lessons per week at $10 per lesson. And at each lesson I put in 110% effort, which Sensei has always praised me for (she sometimes uses me to motivate some of the lazier coloured belts, saying that "even this white belt is trying harder than you!"). But ultimately, it is up to GKR to impress me. That's what I'm here doing the trial for.

It's like, well GKR.. here I am. Now prove yourself to me. I'm giving GKR everything I've got... now let's see what it gives me in return. And so far, I'm still waiting to be impressed.


As I've said before 3months is not a fair period to assess any martial arts properly regardless of prior experience.
Well dude, I'm not going to continue spending money on a school that isn't giving me desired results. Would you?

Perhaps your GKR school is better... but all I can tell you is that the GKR schools around my area have yet to impress me. I mean, we all can only make judgments on things based on our own experiences, right? And so far, in my personal experience, I remain unimpressed with GKR.

Let me put it this way, a lot of people are critical of Tai Chi as a martial art. And I don't blame them. A lot of Tai Chi schools are rubbish in terms of teaching self defence - my own Yang Tai Chi school included. If someone told me that they did trial lessons of Tai Chi and found that it taught them nothing useful for fighting, then fair enough. It doesn't mean that Tai Chi itself is useless for fighting, but I will concede that there aren't many good schools out there who can TEACH Tai Chi properly for fighting. Most Tai Chi is taught as a form of holistic meditation and exercise... some people don't even know it's a fighting form, they just think it's like Yoga or Pilates (which is understandable, as Tai Chi does offer similar health benefits as those).

If, for example, you went and learnt Tai Chi because I told you that it's an awesome martial art (and I do believe this)... but you came back and said, "Gok! This Tai Chi school I'm going to is crap! All we do is slow form meditation and practice! And when we do Push Hands, we already start in contact. That's stupid... as if you're gonna start a real fight like that! These people are way too soft, they would get absolutely creamed in a real fight!" etc. -- then I'm not going to disagree with you. A lot of Tai Chi schools _do_ teach like that... even in China... and I think it's silly (from a self defence POV).

So I'm not necessarily saying that GKR itself is a "bad style," but so far I've yet to be impressed by the GKR schools in my local area. Ultimately -- the teacher/school is more important than the style. :) Since my Chen Tai Chi teacher stopped teaching I've been searching for another school to train at. The Yang Tai Chi school is the best (re: least worst) of what I've found in my area so far... but unfortunately they only have one lesson a week and it happens on the one day where I have to work late. :( My timetable will change in September-October, so if it frees up my Wed evenings then I'd like to resume my Yang Tai Chi training... unless I find something better in the interim.

[GoktimusPrime]

:confused: Umm... okay?

Anyway, allow me to simplify what I said in my previous post(s) like this:
Any opinions expressed by me about GKR are based on my experiences with individual schools that I have participated in and do not necessarily reflect an extension of how it may be practised or taught in other schools.

Here's a quick sketch I made contrasting my experience of Karate at my local GKR dojos, with my experience of Okinawan Goju Karate in a dojo in Japan. ;)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/artofwar.jpg

The practitioner of traditional Okinawan Karate asked me to punch him as hard as I could, as many times as I liked. He didn't flinch. At my GKR Dojo, if I so much as tap my partner they cry foul. :o

I understand the need for safety in training. As I've mentioned many times on this thread, martial arts teachers have a legal duty of care. Having said that...
1. Safety shouldn't mean that training is so far "sanitised" that it becomes counter-productive to teaching students how to fight. Tip sparring works on the same principle as Touch Footy. Instead of hard contact (e.g. punching or tackling), you just tip and that counts as a "hit". It doesn't hurt, but it gives you tactile feedback letting you know that you've been "hit" (or "tackled" in the case of Touch Footy). Could you imagine trying to play Non-Contact Footy?
2. Insurance will cover schools/instructors so long as reasonable care is taken. Insurance companies recognise that martial arts is a potentially dangerous activity... that's why you take out insurance. But so long as reasonable measures are in place, then insurance companies will cover you. e.g. providing students with safety equipment, giving reasonable instructions for safety (e.g. tipping only, no full strengthed strikes, instructors have valid first aid training, coaching qualifications etc.). Teachers/schools get in trouble is where there are reasonable measures aren't taken and are found to be negligent and/or derelict in their duty of care. If you try to provide a reasonably safe training environment and an injury occurs, then you're covered. It's the same legal duty of care that school teachers have.

[Hot Rodimus]

Gok I am truly suprised, hence my first post in such a long time. I would have thought that someone so experienced in martial arts like yourself would have heard of the reputation GKR has?

GKR in martial arts circles is commony referred to as 'Amway Karate' and derives very little respect from all outside it's braiwashing like influence. Google it and you will see what I refer to, its all a pyramid scheme to make money for those at the top of the organisation (hence poor classes, sub par sensei's or sensei's who are only green belt etc but get fast tracked to black so the can open a dojo or start teaching). Even the syllabus is to be laughed at (though I think you are finding this out).

In the past I have trained in Shito ryu and Goju Karate for many years, when I bought a new house and moved to a new area and looked for places to train the only place remotely close was GKR, it was never a consideration and I opted to travel 30 - 40 mins each way to a decent school.

If recognised for what it is, GKR can have some benefits, mostly for kids I think as the fitness, coordination and discipline can be good for them but that is all. Google and you shall see.

[Bartrim]

One of the few times I felt dissapointed with a lesson last night. It was freezing cold. We got warmed up and pushed pretty hard by Sensei who kept us warm by constantly having us on the move doing stuff. So I was looking forward to a real challenging lesson as I thought it would be a fast paced lesson to keep us warm and prevent injuries. It was the exact opposite. After the warm we worked on de-escalating volatile situations for the rest of the lesson. It was the first lesson when I haven't used my rehydration formula at the end as I felt fine.

[GoktimusPrime]

Gok I am truly suprised, hence my first post in such a long time. I would have thought that someone so experienced in martial arts like yourself would have heard of the reputation GKR has?

GKR in martial arts circles is commony referred to as 'Amway Karate' and derives very little respect from all outside it's braiwashing like influence. Google it and you will see what I refer to, its all a pyramid scheme to make money for those at the top of the organisation (hence poor classes, sub par sensei's or sensei's who are only green belt etc but get fast tracked to black so the can open a dojo or start teaching). Even the syllabus is to be laughed at (though I think you are finding this out).

In the past I have trained in Shito ryu and Goju Karate for many years, when I bought a new house and moved to a new area and looked for places to train the only place remotely close was GKR, it was never a consideration and I opted to travel 30 - 40 mins each way to a decent school.

If recognised for what it is, GKR can have some benefits, mostly for kids I think as the fitness, coordination and discipline can be good for them but that is all. Google and you shall see.
Damnit, you sound like my conscience! :p I must say that I am inclined to agree with you. But at the time I signed up I was feeling...

1) Desperate for any sort of MA training, as my Yang Tai Chi classes only run once a week, and since last Sept/Oct it's clashed w/ my work schedule, so I haven't really done much training since then. :(

2) I told the GKR sales rep about my reservations about GKR and I told her that I was solely interested in learning GKR for self defence. She repeatedly and vehemently assured me that GKR is geared for self def, and convinced me to try it out for 3 months and judge for myself. So I agreed.

...perhaps I should get a Gi and sew a Chupa-Chups logo onto it. :p Ah well... at least I can say that I gave GKR a go, and that my opinions about it come from more substantial first hand experience and not based solely on reputation. But I must say that so far, my GKR Dojo is absolutely living up to its reputation as a McDojo. :(

KalEl: perhaps your Dojo isn't like this... but Dojos like mine are giving your school/style a bad reputation.


One of the few times I felt dissapointed with a lesson last night. It was freezing cold. We got warmed up and pushed pretty hard by Sensei who kept us warm by constantly having us on the move doing stuff. So I was looking forward to a real challenging lesson as I thought it would be a fast paced lesson to keep us warm and prevent injuries. It was the exact opposite. After the warm we worked on de-escalating volatile situations for the rest of the lesson. It was the first lesson when I haven't used my rehydration formula at the end as I felt fine.
+1; climate should be taken into account when preparing lessons.

I also don't like having much down time during lessons. My Chen Tai Chi teacher said that we should always be doing something physically productive in class... so for example, when all students are demonstrating forms, once you've done all you know, rather than just sitting down and watching the more senior students do their form, you either go back and practice your forms again, or if you want to watch, stand in a stance or sit down and stretch while you're watching. In GKR they sometimes get us all to do kata, and they get us to sit down while the higher belts finish off their katas, but in the mean time you can feel yourself cooling down. So I just keep stretching to keep myself warm -- cos later when everyone's told to get up and resume training, I hear all the non-brown belts moan because they feel stiff... whereas I'm ready to jump right into it. :)

------------------------------
*Yeah, I don't know why they spelt "defence" as a verb instead of a noun. :rolleyes:

[KalEl]

KalEl: perhaps your Dojo isn't like this... but Dojos like mine are giving your school/style a bad reputation.

As i have said before i am fully aware of the clubs (massive) downsides, but as a long term student and sensei of the club (also worked for them for 6mths) I have a very good understanding of the club.

Unfortunately you got the bad end of the spectrum i think, i have experienced this before within gkr and outside of it.

I don't have a dojo, as in a club like gkr it is best to train between a couple of different instructors (black belt). Later classes (second class) are gerally better quality for people more serious as children tend not to participate, there are also advanced classes.

As for a combat based club, no they are not one. As a technical style the training has great potential for this, watch any of the open division forms.

I often watch the kumite from gkr and shake my head, but that being said at higher levels it can be quite interesting.

If you want true "combat" do boxing or kickboxing competitively (not just cardio stuff) or mma training, otherwise you will always be disappointed.

[GoktimusPrime]

If you want true "combat" do boxing or kickboxing competitively (not just cardio stuff) or mma training, otherwise you will always be disappointed.
I've always been pretty happy with traditional martial arts for combat (that's why I'm often interested to learn about the lineage of a style when I hear about it, to see how authentic/traditional they are, or if it's a modern style)... after all, that's what they were created to do (and refined over centuries in battlefields before the advent of the submachine gun). That's what my Chen Tai Chi training was like and I found it worked really well.

People stopped using martial arts in battle after the advent of the sub machine gun; invented in WWI, but came into common use around WWII. Before then melee fighting was still highly used in combat.

I've tried kickboxing/muay thai and MMA... I found them disappointing because like many modern MAs I come across, because they enter in tournament comps, they always fight according to some set of rules. The moment you introduce any "rules" to a fight, then your training becomes less effectual for combat because in a real fight there are NO rules and the best moves are also the dirtiest. Competition fighters like a "nice and clean fight," traditionalists have no qualms about fighting dirty. :)

[KalEl]

I've always been pretty happy with traditional martial arts for combat (that's why I'm often interested to learn about the lineage of a style when I hear about it, to see how authentic/traditional they are, or if it's a modern style)... after all, that's what they were created to do (and refined over centuries in battlefields before the advent of the submachine gun). That's what my Chen Tai Chi training was like and I found it worked really well.

People stopped using martial arts in battle after the advent of the sub machine gun; invented in WWI, but came into common use around WWII. Before then melee fighting was still highly used in combat.

I've tried kickboxing/muay thai and MMA... I found them disappointing because like many modern MAs I come across, because they enter in tournament comps, they always fight according to some set of rules. The moment you introduce any "rules" to a fight, then your training becomes less effectual for combat because in a real fight there are NO rules and the best moves are also the dirtiest. Competition fighters like a "nice and clean fight," traditionalists have no qualms about fighting dirty. :)

why do you want to learn to quote un-quote fight?

[GoktimusPrime]

Later classes (second class) are gerally better quality for people more serious as children tend not to participate, there are also advanced classes.
I always go to the second class. I went to the first class the first time I went because I didn't know... but that first night I stayed on for the second class. But after that I've only ever been to the teen/adult classes.


As for a combat based club, no they are not one.
Gah! The GKR rep told me the complete opposite of this, even after I'd explicitly told her that I only wanted to learn martial arts for fighting/self defence and nothing else. She then vehemently assured me that GKR was totally suited to fight training. :(


I often watch the kumite from gkr and shake my head, but that being said at higher levels it can be quite interesting.
In traditional MA schools you learn how to fight a lot faster than that. It's because in the old days you needed soldiers/militia/guards to be combat ready sooner rather than later. I used to know a guy who'd learnt a sport martial art for about a year. I sparred with him and I got lots of "hits" into him yet he couldn't get hits onto me, which frustrated him. I didn't see him for months after that, in the meantime he went off and started learning a traditional martial art. When I met him again he'd been learning the traditional MA for 3 months, and we sparred again. While he still couldn't get any hits onto me, I also couldn't get any hits onto him! So in a span of only 3 months he'd already learnt to become fairly competent in not getting hit! (e.g. blocking, parrying, evading etc.)

I also knew another guy who'd NEVER done any martial art before, and started learning a traditional style. After learning it for 5-6 months he met up with a friend who had a black belt 1st or 2nd dan in a sport martial art. They sparred. The newbie guy floored the black belt in 3 moves. They tried again - finished in 2 moves. Tried again, finished in 1 move. Traditional MAs isn't about "Let's keep throwing hits at each other and see how many points we get," it's about "This ends now!" Hence Karate's saying of "One hit one kill" -- the ideal fight is one that finishes in one move (unlikely in reality against a competent opponent, but still - you aim to finish a fight as quickly as possible and not to prolong conflict).


why do you want to learn to quote un-quote fight?
Different people like to learn martial arts for different reasons. Some people just like to learn it as a fun competitive sport, others like to learn it as an "art form", others like to learn it to health/fitness, and others like to learn it for "fighting." Some like to learn it for a combination of reasons and there are a variety of different martial arts schools out there that cater for these different needs. Everyone's entitled to their personal preferences... but when the GKR rep came to my door I clearly and explicitly told her that my primary interest in learning martial arts is for self defence. She asked me if I was interested in any of the other reasons, and I said no. On that premise she then assured me that GKR was absolutely suited to my needs... so far, I'm finding that it's not. :rolleyes:

Different strokes for different blokes... I get it, that's fine. I don't expect every school to teach martial arts for self defence nor do I expect every martial artist to be learning for that reason. But I think people should at least be upfront and honest about what their school is teaching. If a person joins a martial art that's geared toward being more of a "hobby art" rather than a "fighting art," then that school ought to be upfront and honest about it. That's why I respect the Sunday Sensei, because he _was_ upfront and honest with me. He openly admits that GKR isn't ideal for self defence/fighting. If only the sales rep was as honest as him... I wouldn't have bothered signing up and wasting my money on something that doesn't suit my needs. :( In education we say "the right course for the right student," i.e. there isn't one subject that's "better" or "worse" than another... it depends on the individual student.

[KalEl]

Different people like to learn martial arts for different reasons. Some people just like to learn it as a fun competitive sport, others like to learn it as an "art form", others like to learn it to health/fitness, and others like to learn it for "fighting." Some like to learn it for a combination of reasons and there are a variety of different martial arts schools out there that cater for these different needs. Everyone's entitled to their personal preferences... but when the GKR rep came to my door I clearly and explicitly told her that my primary interest in learning martial arts is for self defence. She asked me if I was interested in any of the other reasons, and I said no. On that premise she then assured me that GKR was absolutely suited to my needs... so far, I'm finding that it's not. :rolleyes:

Different strokes for different blokes... I get it, that's fine. I don't expect every school to teach martial arts for self defence nor do I expect every martial artist to be learning for that reason. But I think people should at least be upfront and honest about what their school is teaching. If a person joins a martial art that's geared toward being more of a "hobby art" rather than a "fighting art," then that school ought to be upfront and honest about it. That's why I respect the Sunday Sensei, because he _was_ upfront and honest with me. He openly admits that GKR isn't ideal for self defence/fighting. If only the sales rep was as honest as him... I wouldn't have bothered signing up and wasting my money on something that doesn't suit my needs. :( In education we say "the right course for the right student," i.e. there isn't one subject that's "better" or "worse" than another... it depends on the individual student.

You didn't answer :P why do YOU want to learn to 'fight'?

[Hot Rodimus]

I agree with KalEl 100%. If you want to learn how to fight and be challenged so you don’t spar one handed (which despite how you might explain it to your training partner is very disrespectful regardless of their skill) then take up Muay Thai or MMA.

A traditional MA is most always geared to the student who is a bit of a romantic and wants to learn the art of “insert name here” as it has been passed down from the mystical hands of Master whoever or they are looking for something structured with clearly defined goals/rewards (think coloured belts). Another reality is that TMA schools have to try and retain students so making it ‘easy’ or less contact orientated helps attract and retain students while operating under the guise of teaching effective self-defense.

Having said that, I have met some great fighters in my time doing karate and other TMA but they were a rarity and usually black belt level or higher Dan grades. Quite often this ability to fight is also a combination of their personality (some people will never be fighters) and life experiences.

My eyes were truly opened the first time I took up Muay Thai, those guys train hard, teach effective, simple, easily learnt techniques and have plenty of contact. Heck you even cop a beating holding the pads for your training partner a lot of the time. It will sound like I have a massive ego but in TMA circles I was a better than average fighter and had real life experience to back it up, I was nothing compared to a lot of the guys I trained with and despite me thinking I could take a hit I was actually pretty soft compared to these guys.

You keep stating what you want and how such and such a school has let you down. If you want contact join Muay Thai or MMA, sure you say there are rules and that is no good but also keep in mind nothing else is going to prepare or condition you for apply force to an opponent or receiving it. Cross train it with BJJ (I can vouch for its effectiveness from experience) and then you negate the lack of grappling and groundwork. Or better yet train MMA which is very close to real fighting as all aspects or range are covered.. Also you are always going to encounter rules, they are a there to help keep you and your training partner safe and able to turn up the to the next training session/work etc.

Unless you want to start a fight club or go down to your local pub and start smashing punters you are never going to get a ‘real experience’. Training is almost always a compromise as nothing teaches you on what to really expect in a fight or will show you how effective you really are except for a real fight.

[Bartrim]

Honestly... compared with the traditionalists that I used to train with... my standards are LOW. I am NOT a high level martial artist... don't let the gut fool you. :p If you met any of the guys I used to train with, you'd know that I'm by NO means advanced and my standards really aren't that high -- by traditional martial arts standards.



Gok I just went to Yellow Pages and searched Martial Arts Schools in the Blacktown area (I just picked that as a generalisation. I know you live out west I'm not sure where... even though I have been to your place:o) and I got quite a few listings. Now if you do have low standards then one of the schools in that long list should be able to provide you with what you are looking for. If you can't find anything satisfactory then I think your standards are higher then what you initially believe.

[5FDP]

Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya ;) :D

[GoktimusPrime]

You didn't answer :P why do YOU want to learn to 'fight'?
Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.


I agree with KalEl 100%. If you want to learn how to fight and be challenged so you don’t spar one handed (which despite how you might explain it to your training partner is very disrespectful regardless of their skill) then take up Muay Thai or MMA.
We have established a friendly rapport from previous lessons (where we've often chatted during breaks or before/after lessons), so he wasn't upset by it. He was MUCH more upset by me tapping him. And as I'm sure you know, when you fight/spar, you just go off automatic instinct. It's all well and good for people to say "no contact," but ultimately I'm just gonna do what I'm trained to do - as I'm sure you (and everyone else here) would do as well.


A traditional MA is most always geared to the student who is a bit of a romantic and wants to learn the art of “insert name here” as it has been passed down from the mystical hands of Master whoever or they are looking for something structured with clearly defined goals/rewards (think coloured belts).
I want to learn what works. I will admit that I have a preference for TMAs because it has a history of being demonstrated to work, but tbh if I found a Mod MA school that worked I'd train with them. There are plenty of TMA schools that don't effectively teach self defence too; the individual teacher/school matters more than the style.


Another reality is that TMA schools have to try and retain students so making it ‘easy’ or less contact orientated helps attract and retain students while operating under the guise of teaching effective self-defense.
Yeah, that's a fair point. TMA classes are incredibly tiny compared to Mod MA classes. When I did Chen Tai Chi, toward the end if we were lucky to have 3 people in the class. TMAs seem to lack the "glamour appeal" of some Mod MAs because we don't do competitions, we don't have fancy ceremonies (we never bowed at anyone -- just called the teacher by his first name; he _refused_ to be called "Shifu" and insisted on being treated as a "learned equal")... our school had a uniform but nobody ever wore it. We didn't have coloured belts/sashes, no grades, no tests... just pure training. Eventually class numbers just kept dwindling so yeah... now those classes no longer run and I'm looking for a new school. Maybe teaching pure Traditional MAs just isn't commercially viable in Australia these days. :(


My eyes were truly opened the first time I took up Muay Thai, those guys train hard, teach effective, simple, easily learnt techniques and have plenty of contact. Heck you even cop a beating holding the pads for your training partner a lot of the time.
That's the way training should be! Every hit should be aimed at issuing/delivering power _through_ the target and not at it! (and the pad holders should be standing in proper stances to absorb the power of the hits - it also helps teach you how to hold your stances while you're being pummeled). :) As I've mentioned before, I have tried MT and MMA and I personally found them to be disappointing. Perhaps it's just the schools (maybe I've yet to find a good MT and MMA school). I'd like to really try Muay Boran -- the traditional/ancient Thai martial art that Muay Thai is derived from! I've heard about it, but I've never seen it for myself IRL! :) I've been told that they use more wider and solid stances (like in other TMAs) compared to the higher up stances of MT.

I was training with a local MMA/Kung Fu school for a while, but then they actually closed shop and nicked off. I asked one of the neighbouring business operators what happened to them, and they told me that they'd stopped paying their rent and just did a runner! :eek: :eek:


You keep stating what you want and how such and such a school has let you down. If you want contact join Muay Thai or MMA, sure you say there are rules and that is no good but also keep in mind nothing else is going to prepare or condition you for apply force to an opponent or receiving it. Cross train it with BJJ (I can vouch for its effectiveness from experience) and then you negate the lack of grappling and groundwork. Or better yet train MMA which is very close to real fighting as all aspects or range are covered.. Also you are always going to encounter rules, they are a there to help keep you and your training partner safe and able to turn up the to the next training session/work etc.
I don't mind rules for safety -- what I mind are rules that are counter-intuitive to self defence. Like saying "Don't target the groin" (which means that you don't bother to keep your groin safe if nobody's ever going to strike you there) or "no contact", which of course means you stop learning to make contact with your hits, let alone issuing power.

For example, I often do "tip sparring," where "tipping" is a safety rule so that you're not actually hitting the person with force, but just tapping them with your hands, feet, elbow, knee etc. Enough force to make contact and let them know that they've been contacted, but not enough to really hurt (at worst it's like a slap). When going for the groin, we go for the inner groin muscle or upper inner thigh, striking just next to genitals, but actually at them. Alternatively or additionally you can also enforce students to wear protective gear. So I'm fine with rules that modify fighting for safe training -by law schools have to do this (re: Duty of Care), but it should be done in a way that isn't counter-intuitive to how a fight should go.

It's like say teaching kids footy but at first you start with Touch Footy rules instead of allowing tackling. But otherwise the rules of the game are pretty much the same as actual tackle footy. It's a rule that allows people to play footy in a manner that's safer than tackling, but isn't necessarily counter intuitive to tackle footy because you're still following the same rules. When I spar in some schools and they say, "You can't go for the groin," well, that's significantly altering the state of play. I'd rather, "Go for the upper inner thigh" or "everyone must wear a groin guard"... that allows for safer and intuitive training.

I have tried some BJJ before and I've found it is quite good for 1 vs 1 fighting. A bit unsure on fighting multiple opponents as BJJ has always taught me to go onto the ground with my opponent (whereas in Chen Tai Chi we do "upright" grapples submission holds and never go to the ground). Also, some BJJ guys I've sparred against leave their groins open... but I think that's because their techniques were sloppy, like they'd be pinning me, but because their bodies are tightly gripping mine, they leave a gap which I can worm my arm(s) into and grab their nards. But I've had instructors explain to me that the holds should be really tight so that there are no gaps. :) There is a BJJ school not far from me, and I am thinking about having a look at that when my GKR trial is over. There's also another Yang Tai Chi that's further away from me... might also try that if I can arrange the time to get there. But yeah, BJJ is a style that I hold in high regard. :) I also have a lot of respect for Goju Karate too; that's a nice traditional Okinawan style that I find has good solid tight defences with excellent endurance training (as part of their Fujian heritage).

So I am still shopping around. Just kinda on hold atm cos I'm locked into GKR for another 2 months.


Unless you want to start a fight club or go down to your local pub and start smashing punters you are never going to get a ‘real experience’. Training is almost always a compromise as nothing teaches you on what to really expect in a fight or will show you how effective you really are except for a real fight.
Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat ;) We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.


Come train with me Gok... I'll learn ya ;) :D
Can you PM me with your school details? I might look into it after my GKR stint is done. :)

[KalEl]

Because that's what I enjoy learning in martial arts. It's a personal preference thing. It's like asking someone "Why do you enjoy entering tournaments?" or "Why do you enjoy keeping your toys MISB?"

I enjoy opening my toys and playing with them because I find it fun/enjoyable. Likewise I find it martial arts enjoyable when it's directly applicable to fighting/self defence. I'm not trying to put down other people's preferences in MAs by saying this... but it's my personal preference.


i understand that :) i was just curious about the reasons behind it.

[Bartrim]

Ya know... I am seriously thinking about making a kind of fight club; like maybe finding other martial arts enthusiasts around my area (even at this GKR school I've met some nice friendly people whom I might keep in touch with even if I choose not to continue GKR) and just get together informally and cross train with each other. I personally have all kinds of safety equipment - protectors, pads, shields... even an old gym mat ;) We could just meet up at a park or something and train with each other.



It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club:D It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

[KalEl]

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club:D It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

if we were only all in the same area

[Bartrim]

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvTxH11O2HU&feature=fvwrel

[KalEl]

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvTxH11O2HU&feature=fvwrel

*mega face palm*

[Hot Rodimus]

anytime your up Brisbane way your more than welcome to join me for a spar or swap techniques/ideas Gok :)

Just be carefull starting up a 'fight club'... as in don't call it a fight club lol. That sort of name will attract unwanted attention and has negative connotations. Forming a training group can be great though, I have been part of one in the past and learnt some interesting concepts and techniques that I wouldn't have normally been exposed to. One thing to watch though is if people get hurt. I would hate to see you on the end of some nasty litigation if one of your training buddies get's injured and decides to sue (may never happen but in today's day and age you have to consider it). As the organiser you may be held responsible? Maybe someone here who has legal knowledge could advise??

[Bartrim]

After watching that previous youtube vid I found this one. All I can say is HADOUKEN!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0&feature=related

feel free to reply with any facepalm images you think are worthy.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's a shame we all live so far apart otherwise we could have an Ozformer fight club:D It's one thing to talk styles but I would really like to see others styles to compare plus I would love to get in some more sparring time.

if we were only all in the same area
+1. That would be an awesome idea if we lived in the same locale (or had teleportation devices :p). :) It's so hard to discuss this kind of stuff in text, whereas when you talk about this stuff with people IRL it's much faster and more efficient! I find it's a case of "a move speaks a thousand words." :)


anytime your up Brisbane way your more than welcome to join me for a spar or swap techniques/ideas Gok :)
Thanks dude, and likewise. :)


Just be carefull starting up a 'fight club'... as in don't call it a fight club lol. That sort of name will attract unwanted attention and has negative connotations. Forming a training group can be great though, I have been part of one in the past and learnt some interesting concepts and techniques that I wouldn't have normally been exposed to. One thing to watch though is if people get hurt. I would hate to see you on the end of some nasty litigation if one of your training buddies get's injured and decides to sue (may never happen but in today's day and age you have to consider it). As the organiser you may be held responsible? Maybe someone here who has legal knowledge could advise??
I've organised and participated in informal training gatherings before too, and I did look into the legality of it. My understanding is that it falls under third party public liability - which means that whoever hurts someone else is legally liable. It's pretty much the same liability that happens for any other sport activity run by private individuals. For example, we could form say a cricket team and play/train in the park. If say Bartrim were to hit me with a cricket ball and I sustained injury, then he may be liable. This is why martial arts schools take out insurance which covers them in the event of injury.

But I think that within reason it would be possible. If anyone here is thinking about starting up such groups in your local area, here are some suggestions:
+ Agree that everyone participates at their own risk.
+ Only allow people who have a prior martial arts training/experience participate.
+ Agree to a set of rules for the sake of safety. If someone doesn't agree, then don't train with them. For example, the last group I was involved with was with MMA and MT fighters. After I badly hurt one of them in the groin, I purchased an external groin guard for my partners to used, but at the next training session, they refused to wear it -- more concerned about just not targetting the groin rather than wearing it for safety. So I refused to continue training with them and left the group.

...basically, you just use common sense. Train hard, but keep each other safe. :)

I would also consider purchasing training equipment too. I personally have chest protectors, head protectors, groin guard, shin guards, mitts, focus pads, kick shield, boxing bag, gym mat etc. -- so I'm equipped to practise with other like minded MA enthusiasts. I guess I just gotta build some contacts around my area. I know one guy near who lives near me that I used to train with. And I've started forming a rapport with some of the people I'm training with at GKR, so I might be able to get some of them on board (particularly one brown belt who seems promising and has expressed his frustration to me about his training).

Another thing I've enjoyed about these informal training groups is that you get to meet a variety of people of different MA backgrounds... you don't get that so much in MA school settings where most people are trained in the same style. So it's a good way to test your own training/style against others too... cos often you see people fight a certain way and think to yourself, "I wonder what I'd do against that?" :) You can theorise all you like, but you'll never know unless you try. The worst injury I've sustained from training outside a school was a bruise near my rib after trying out some European Broadsword! I totally suck at weapons. :p

[KalEl]

+1. That would be an awesome idea if we lived in the same locale (or had teleportation devices :p). :) It's so hard to discuss this kind of stuff in text, whereas when you talk about this stuff with people IRL it's much faster and more efficient! I find it's a case of "a move speaks a thousand words." :)


Thanks dude, and likewise. :)


I've organised and participated in informal training gatherings before too, and I did look into the legality of it. My understanding is that it falls under third party public liability - which means that whoever hurts someone else is legally liable. It's pretty much the same liability that happens for any other sport activity run by private individuals. For example, we could form say a cricket team and play/train in the park. If say Bartrim were to hit me with a cricket ball and I sustained injury, then he may be liable. This is why martial arts schools take out insurance which covers them in the event of injury.

But I think that within reason it would be possible. If anyone here is thinking about starting up such groups in your local area, here are some suggestions:
+ Agree that everyone participates at their own risk.
+ Only allow people who have a prior martial arts training/experience participate.
+ Agree to a set of rules for the sake of safety. If someone doesn't agree, then don't train with them. For example, the last group I was involved with was with MMA and MT fighters. After I badly hurt one of them in the groin, I purchased an external groin guard for my partners to used, but at the next training session, they refused to wear it -- more concerned about just not targetting the groin rather than wearing it for safety. So I refused to continue training with them and left the group.

...basically, you just use common sense. Train hard, but keep each other safe. :)

I would also consider purchasing training equipment too. I personally have chest protectors, head protectors, groin guard, shin guards, mitts, focus pads, kick shield, boxing bag, gym mat etc. -- so I'm equipped to practise with other like minded MA enthusiasts. I guess I just gotta build some contacts around my area. I know one guy near who lives near me that I used to train with. And I've started forming a rapport with some of the people I'm training with at GKR, so I might be able to get some of them on board (particularly one brown belt who seems promising and has expressed his frustration to me about his training).

Another thing I've enjoyed about these informal training groups is that you get to meet a variety of people of different MA backgrounds... you don't get that so much in MA school settings where most people are trained in the same style. So it's a good way to test your own training/style against others too... cos often you see people fight a certain way and think to yourself, "I wonder what I'd do against that?" :) You can theorise all you like, but you'll never know unless you try. The worst injury I've sustained from training outside a school was a bruise near my rib after trying out some European Broadsword! I totally suck at weapons. :p

mutual training is awesome if organised and controlled well. some of my best experience come from this type of setting :D

[Bartrim]

After watching that previous youtube vid I found this one. All I can say is HADOUKEN!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Z0_n7tGnK0&feature=related

feel free to reply with any facepalm images you think are worthy.

I spent a bit of time hunting around reading and watching vids online of bogus martial arts and had quite the laugh at these no touch knock out people. Here is another one, who actually trained under that George Dillman goose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk

Notice UFC fighter Stephan Bonnar at 3:32:D After not being able to knock out any of the BJJ fighters he claims that this will only work on 40% of people and it is very hard to use it on pro-athletes because of their training... but he couldn't even use it effectively on the reporter:rolleyes:

For me I prefer to use the sonic boom over the hadouken:p

[GoktimusPrime]

I'll check that vid out when I get home. :) But yeah, I've definitely heard stories about these kinds of schools. Also, because my MA experience has predominantly been in internal MAs, I've seen these kinds of people before IRL. There was a guy in a group that I used to train with who absolutely believed in this sort of thing... that he can expel his chi energy and kill you without touching you blah blah blah. Trying to argue with these kinds of people is like trying to argue with people who are extremely supersitious or religious to the point that they block out logic and common sense. Like any time I'd ask him to demonstrate this power to me, the excuse would be, "I can't, otherwise I'd badly hurt you or might end up killing you." I'd say, "Yeah, I'll take that risk. Try me." but he'd repeat the same thing and say, "I won't use my power unless I'm under a real attack," and of course, I'm not about to assault the guy to prove a point, so he wins. :rolleyes:

Then I'd ask him what he'd do to defend himself if he were attacked, but the attacker wasn't presenting him with lethal force. Like say if someone had grabbed his shoulder in a threatening way... most of us would physically do something to escape and/or counter that grab, but then we'd quickly assess the threat before choosing what an appropriate response would be. Like if someone's trying to grab shoulder so they can swipe your bag, you can't deliver a lethal blow... then you'd be up for manslaughter charges. But he was like, "If someone attacks me then they deserve to die. I can't be held responsible for that." And again, repeatedly headbutting a brick wall was less painful than trying to argue against that with this guy! He thought the rest of us were being stupid and foolish for training in tactile self defence.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_facepalm_primeratchet.jpg

He was just completely delusional and completely convinced about his ability to project energy to defend himself and kill people. :rolleyes: The rest of us in the group distanced ourselves from him (he'd just stand several metres away from us and do solitary form practice all the time) and just laugh at him... and not just about his conceptions of combat, but also because he wore this super-tight see-through shirt that showed off his ... erm... "radio dials" <shudder>... and he frequently had his fly undone. :p But nobody was gonna tell him that. ;) We all just kept telling each other that any one of us would just so love to be a fly on the wall if he ever found himself in a situation where he had to defend himself! I can just imagine him holding his hands out imagining that he's projecting his chi energy to kill his attacker... yeah. Maybe the attacker would laugh so hard or take pity so he wouldn't bother continuing the attack (in which case this guy would be totally convinced that his powers worked... like a Jedi Mind Trick).

I've heard of this one school that teaches students to fight like this. The teacher charges his students some ridiculous amount of money for each class (like $100/lesson?) ... and he even has students who regularly fly in from interstate just to train with him! Someone told me that he visited this school and saw the teacher "Force Pushing" the students around. He'd make a gesture, and the students would throw themselves back, falling down as if they'd been shoved by an invisible force. When he spoke to the students, they absolutely believed that their master had pushed them with an unseen force. He asked the students if any of them could do it, and they said, "Oh no, it takes a lifetime to achieve this." He then asked the master if he could demonstrate some of this force, and he said, "Oh no, without proper training you would die!" :rolleyes: But he told me that these were the kind of people who just wanted to be conned into something... like they're desperate for some kind of emotional crutch. And he said that quite honestly, if this bogus MA school weren't ripping them off and giving them false hope, then somebody else would be. It's like that scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where the big crowd keeps chasing Brian and won't leave him alone. :)

[Oldschool78]

Ive been to a small circle jiu jitsu Seminar that Leon Jay took. The most memorable part was being moved by Qi.

I was extremely skeptical and starting thinking about the Roof i was working on the next day, Just to take my mind off it.
I was facing away from him and it was like being pulled backwards off balance.
So I can vouch personally that its real (I also learnt some awesome locks that I still use today)

Ive never seen a no touch KO so won't comment on it, but in the clip where Dillman was trying to affect the skeptic guy, all I could think was, Meh just hit the points and wipe that smug look off his face.
Dillman's no mug, he looks silly in that clip but didn't it say he's 8th dan karate? Thats a lot of training.

[Bartrim]

Thats what I can't believe. Dillman is 8th Dan so he must have some skills. He really doesn't need to resort to this BS.

BTW I'm not disputing the pressure point stuff because we do some pressure point work and I love it. So simple yet effective. It's the no touch knock outs that I think is rubbbish.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ahahaha, aw man, I just saw those vids. :D


Thats what I can't believe. Dillman is 8th Dan so he must have some skills. He really doesn't need to resort to this BS.
I've never heard of this guy until now, but I wonder what the authenticity/lineage of his style/training is. After a brief online search it appears that he claims that he trained under Seiyu Oyata, but neither Oyata nor his associates have ever endorsed or sanctioned Dillman's Ryukyu Kempo. There appears to be a lack of evidence that Dillman ever received authentic training... especially when the Ryukyuan head branch flatly deny it.


BTW I'm not disputing the pressure point stuff because we do some pressure point work and I love it. So simple yet effective. It's the no touch knock outs that I think is rubbbish.
I agree. Pressure points still require tactile contact too! For anyone who doubts the existence of pressure points, there's a very simply pressure point attack that is commonly used even in schoolyard and street brawls, or even accidentally in sports... and many of us have may have experienced it -- getting winded. I remember my Chen Tai Chi teacher demonstrating it once... all you need to do is fight the right point in the solar plexus, and push it. He did this with his thumb, and the person he demonstrated it down dropped down gasping for breath. The force applied to that point causes the diaphragm to spasm, which of course makes it difficulty to breathe. Now of course, in a real fight it's jolly hard to hit a pressure point with accuracy... so it's best just to aim at that general area with a large surface area, like your fist (instead of a finger tip). For instance, if you punch someone in the solar plexus, there's a fair chance that some part of your fist will impact on the exact pressure point that causes the diaphragm to spasm and wind the opponent. ;) But yeah, whether you're using finger tips or fists... either way you do need to touch someone to activate a pressure point! I remain an unbeliever in the idea of projecting invisible energy through the air at people. Unless you have extremely powerful farts (especially if they're silent but violent ;)) :D

It was funny watching those guys make excuses for why their techniques didn't work on skeptics. :rolleyes: In comparison, I find a kick to the nards has a much higher chance of success considering:
+ It still works regardless of the opponent's tongue or toe positions!
+ 40% of the population are not susceptible to no-contact? (that's a lot btw) 100% of the male population are susceptible to being smashed in the groin!
+ Natural athletes are the toughest? So you'd better hope that if you get attacked by someone that they're not going to be physically fit! :rolleyes: Also... a kick to the nards still works on fit people. :)

You know what's really flawed about all these demonstrations? NONE of the participants are trying to fight back! They're all just standing there waiting for the attacker to expel energy at them! Cos in a real fight your attacker is totally gonna just stand there and let you do your voodoo! And even if it pushes you off balance... so what? The first thing you learn in martial arts is to stand in a solid stance; absorb the energy from the push (as you would from a physical attack)... or take another step out to catch your balance. Or do a breakfall and get up again. Losing your centre of balance isn't the end of the world. It's almost as if these guys are spending a lot of time and money trying to learn how to do something with their chi energy when you could achieve the same result from just tackling someone! :p (odds are the tackle would have a greater success rate... regardless of tongue misalignment ;))

[Oldschool78]

Cos in a real fight your attacker is totally gonna just stand there and let you do your voodoo! And even if it pushes you off balance... so what?

Because its interesting. Well i find it interesting that i can be moved without being touched.

In a "real fight" your going to do what your trained to do aren't you? Be it Grapple, Strike, Grab nuts if want, ok.
Thats what you train, be it forms, katas, sparring, MMA, Thats what your going to have when fighting.
Everyone knows your attacker isn't going to be compliant, and if you don't you will find out pretty smartly


I don't know much about Dillman either, but he was a karate national champion four times.
http://www.dillman.com/about.asp

[GoktimusPrime]

Because its interesting. Well i find it interesting that i can be moved without being touched.
Well that may be a cool parlour trick (for lack of a better word), but is it self defence/martial arts? I mean, there are people who can levitate themselves and walk in thin air without any wires or supports etc. (only they openly claim that they are illusionists - it's just that they won't tell you how their illusions are performed). Some people can make objects/people disappear or produce objects/people out of thin air. These are all really cool things, sure... but when you start teaching it as a martial art and give people that you're teaching the impression that it can be used in self defence, then there's an argument that you could be giving people dangerous false confidence.

I mean, if someone says, "Wanna see a cool trick? I bet I can move you without touching you." and that was effectively it... then fine. But to do the same thing and then say, "Now I'll teach it to you, and you can use it to protect yourself in real life from attackers," now that's potentially putting people's safety and lives in danger. Like that guy I mentioned before whom I used to train with who believes in this stuff... he absolutely believes that if someone were to try to hit him, that he could stop the attack just by projecting his chi energy. That's why the rest of us in that group just shook our heads in disbelief and always speculated about what would happen to this guy should he actually be viciously attacked IRL and he tried to defend himself with no touch. I'll tell you now, he'd get the crap beaten out of him!

The real problem I have hear isn't just that these people are mucking around with these tricks, but instilling people with the steadfast belief that learning these tricks can keep them safe and possibly save their lives in a self defence situation. Now I find this whole 'no touch push' thing highly dubious and I remain skeptical. You say you've experienced it... fine. But that's anecdotal hearsay testimonial from a single individual. It's not what would be acceptable as actual evidence from an academic POV.

There's a lot better research out there on how fights work, such as those conducted by Darren Laur (http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/52461-The-Anatomy-Of-Fear-And-How-It-Relates-To-Survival-Skills-Training/) and his studies into how fear affects fights, because in his research he actually established:
+ The independent variable: Augmenting standard riot police training with cyclical breathing/meditation training.
+ The controlled variable: one group of riot police did not undergo cyclical breathing/meditation training. There was no alteration to their standard riot squad training. They were the control sample.
+ The dependent variable: the study found that the 'test sample' (officers who underwent the breathing/meditation training) saw a massive improvement in their defensive skills as opposed to control sample who saw only a small/marginal improvement.
Conclusion: cyclical breathing/meditation (an element of traditional martial arts training) greatly increases one's ability to control fear and recall learned techniques in a highly stressful/frightening fight scenario.

What I've seen in these videos are merely these people performing these tricks on their own students -- who are unlikely to be skeptics and I have no idea what their previous martial arts training may be. If someone wants to gather dependable evidence on 'no touch' fighting, then they need to do a proper experiment like what Laur did with cyclical breathing/meditation. Also remember that a phenomenon needs to be dependably repeatable in order to demonstrate that it does work and it wasn't just a freak occurance. What these guys have done in these videos is establish confounding variables, i.e. "variables that the researcher failed to control, or eliminate, damaging the internal validity of an experiment." (reference (http://www.experiment-resources.com/confounding-variables.html))


In a "real fight" your going to do what your trained to do aren't you? Be it Grapple, Strike, Grab nuts if want, ok.
Thats what you train, be it forms, katas, sparring, MMA, Thats what your going to have when fighting.
Everyone knows your attacker isn't going to be compliant, and if you don't you will find out pretty smartly
And thus training should attempt to simulate such conditions. Which I'm not seeing in these videos (nor similar people that I've met IRL) who claim to be practising/teaching self defence. If there were NO claim of fight/self def applicability, then fine... I wouldn't object. I'd see it just as another "parlour trick" alongside all the cool stuff that magicians like David Copperfield or even Penn and Teller, who often tell the audience how their illusions are done and often go around debunking myths in their documentary series Penn & Teller: Bullsh!t! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!) -- including one episode where they debunked martial arts.

In all seriousness, if someone wants to be able to defend themselves without touching an attacker there is a way. Carry pepper spray. :)

[Bartrim]

I agree with you Gok. These should not be taught as self defence. I know of a guy (I worked with his cousin) who had learnt self defence at a non touch McDojo and thought he was tough. He got confronted outside a club one night by three guys. Instead of trying to avoid or de-escalate the situation like we are taught (violence is the last measure) he believed he had the skills to take all 3 of these guys on. Short version basically this guy is now on a disability fund:( I'm not sure if there were any legal ramifications regarding the martial arts club he learnt at but I always thought they should of been liable in some way.

BTW I like in the second video how UFC fighter Stephan Bonnar is one of the guys that they try to knock out with chi energy. If I was the reporter I would say "Alright you tried to knock Bonnar out now lets see him try to knock you out":p See if his chi protects him then.

Look at the half moons!!!!!Pfffffft:p:p:p

[Oldschool78]

I mean, if someone says, "Wanna see a cool trick? I bet I can move you without touching you." and that was effectively it... then fine.

Thats were I'm coming from too, its interesting stuff.

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay, you ready? This time I'm going to avoid saying anything negative or critical about tonight's GKR training. I'm only going to focus on the positive aspects! :)

We did some endurance training and resistance work at the beginning of the lesson. Then contact punching/blocking. No comment about the rest of the lesson.

The end. ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Just for some laughs, here are some martial arts memes. Most of these I found off the internet, so I didn't make them. But I couldn't find a meme for Kung Fu, so I made that one. :)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_martialarts.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_aikido.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_bjj.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_boxing.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_euroma.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_karate.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_kendo.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_kungfu.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_mma.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_taichi.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/meme_tkd.jpg

[Bartrim]

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO over those memes:mad: There is seriously one for everything. It is past the point of being funny.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/meme.jpg

This is more in my taste:)

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/tapout.jpg

[GoktimusPrime]

Aaah yes... the new martial arts fashion trend with TapOut shirts etc. My Chen Tai Chi teacher never enforced uniform, but even for students who chose to wear it, he always told us to never wear the uniform anywhere in public other than in class. If we were to travel straight from home to training and back again, then no probs with wearing the uniform. But if we were to make a pitstop at a supermarket or something, then he told us to either change out of it, or at least throw a jacket on top to hide the school logo (our uniform was otherwise just a white Tee-shirt/jumper with small crest and black track pants; so unless you see the logo it doesn't look like a martial arts uniform). The reasoning is that you just don't want to advertise to strangers that you do martial arts, because there are just some idiots out there who are looking for an excuse to make trouble, and seeing a MA uniform or logo may just be the trigger that makes them want to challenge you to a fight.

Thankfully the vast majority of martial artists I've met do the sensible thing and avoid wearing their uniforms outside of classes/events, but every now and then I see someone walking down the street or in a supermarket or shopping centre wearing a martial arts uniform or, more recently, martial arts "fashion." Yeah... it's all fun and games until some idiot calls your bluff and decides to "test" your skills in a fight. :rolleyes:

When I signed up for GKR, the sales rep gave me two GKR stickers and suggested that perhaps I could stick one on my car! :eek: Erm... no thanks. I see enough road rage every week without having to worry about some violent moron being provoked by some martial arts imagery on my car, thank you very much. :rolleyes: If anyone would like some free GKR stickers, LMK. :p And another thing about these martial arts fashion shops I see popping around; all their fashion is geared toward the commercialised fighting sport images, like TapOut etc.

[Bartrim]

Well watch out Gok. I'll be wearing a TapouT shirt tomorrow:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Why most adults drop out of martial arts classes (http://www.virtuescience.com/martial-drop-out.html)

[Bartrim]

Why most adults drop out of martial arts classes (http://www.virtuescience.com/martial-drop-out.html)

Interesting. We have found that most adults drop out of our classes (be it karate, Muay Thai or MMA) because they can't handle the pace or the pain. They think they are fit and strong but as soon as they get a sprained finger, a shot to a pressure point or even a hard kick through a pad they freak out. The usual response is "I didn't sign up for this" I always get puzzled when I hear that. You do realise this is a martial arts academy right? My belief is a good martial arts session should be like a game of footy. After it you should feel sore but not hurt.

[GoktimusPrime]

Interesting. We have found that most adults drop out of our classes (be it karate, Muay Thai or MMA) because they can't handle the pace or the pain. They think they are fit and strong but as soon as they get a sprained finger, a shot to a pressure point or even a hard kick through a pad they freak out. The usual response is "I didn't sign up for this" I always get puzzled when I hear that. You do realise this is a martial arts academy right? My belief is a good martial arts session should be like a game of footy. After it you should feel sore but not hurt.
Chi Energy Pawaaaaaaah!! (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5173/5423233651_9f00208d70_z.jpg) :D

[Bartrim]

Chi Energy Pawaaaaaaah!! (http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5173/5423233651_9f00208d70_z.jpg) :D

LMAO:D

[GoktimusPrime]

Yet another counter-intuitive lesson. :/ I'm not sure if this Sensei knows what she's doing... because a lot of times she tries to teach us something, she has to stop and think -- struggling to remember what she wanted to show us. Then when she remembers, she has to stop and think again, struggling to remember how the move goes. Then she teaches us to do something, and sometimes realises that she's just taught us wrong and shows us a whole new way which is supposedly right, but she doesn't sound too sure. This doesn't happen once in a while, it happens almost every lesson.

And I'm talking about really _really_ basic stuff. Like which leg to step forward and which arm to punch with, which arm/leg to step back and block with... nothing at all complicated... and she's a black belt Sensei who's struggling to recall these techniques and teach them to us. Like... she'll pause and you can literally see her eyes rolling up while she thinks hard to remember. W h a t ? ? :eek: This is a clear sign that she herself hasn't even learnt these moves properly because if she had, then she should be able to execute them instinctively/reflexively ... she might struggle with how to articulate an explanation, but she should be able to do it without having to think about it.

It doesn't matter if it's martial arts or mathematics or languages or whatever the subject matter is. If you still need to consciously think to recall knowledge, then you haven't really learnt it. There's no deep knowledge, only superficial understanding... which is - surprise surprise - what you usually get with rote teaching/learning! That's why educators try to avoid using rote as much as possible in preference of associative learning! In the context of martial arts, associative learning would be learning through application and usage. Which we never really do. And I can actually feel that my GKR training is actually making my skills worse; especially in sparring. Because of the no contact thing, I just don't bother even trying to block most hits... because I'm not going to block something that isn't going to contact me - because if it's not going to contact me, then it's not a threat! This in turn is making me lower my guard... a lot. Basically, I'm actually picking up some bad habits from GKR training which, rather than enhancing my fighting skills, is actually making me worse. :(

Before sparring we did partner work. I got partnered up with the dude who's done another style of Karate before GKR... and he was equally confused by a lot of Sensei's instructions. Like Sensei wanted everyone to practice attacking and blocking from the same side over and over and over again, whereas my partner and I both come from a MA background where we've NEVER done this before... we're used to either having our partners alternate left and right sides, which is we were doing instinctively before we paused and realised that nobody else was doing it; or random side alternation.

There's nothing random in GKR. No surprises. Even in sparring everything's so rigidly controlled and sanitised. And if you do anything surprising - people freak out (like contact). :rolleyes: My partners did NOT like to be grabbed -- despite the fact that we practice it in basics and partnerwork (mawashi uke). And all I was doing was grappling wrists and forearms... that's it. Again... I'd reeeaaally love to see a BJJ fighter come into our Dojo sometime and spar with these guys. ;)

After my first spar, I was puffed out because I was trying to push myself. Sensei told me I was going too fast and too hard, and that's why I was puffed out, and told me to slow down and take it easier. Not really -- I was puffed out because I'm unfit! I'm not going to make up excuses for myself... nor am I going to necessarily "soften up" my training because of it. If anything, I need to push myself harder.

Another sparring partner kept moving around with two massive flaws (aside from not reaching in to contact me):
(1) He oftened leaned backward in his stances - something that Sensei had corrected him on when we did basics. I noticed he was doing this during sparring, so I charged at him and placed my left hand on his sternum while I pushed him backward. Not forceful enough to make him fall backwards, but enough for him to back pedal. I wanted to show him _why_ it was important to keep an upright posture. Then Sensei told me no contact -- then she told my partner not to lean backward. I told Sensei that I was trying to show him this... she said that he's still learning. Umm... yes... that's why I was trying to help him learn this by directly letting him feel why leaning backward made him off balance. All Sensei ever does is verbally tell you why you're doing something wrong and show you the correct method, but NEVER allowing you to experience a mistake. We learn from our mistakes. I'm hoping that after I pushed him backward, this guy is reflecting and thinking, "Oh right, I see why leaning back is bad now." But I doubt it. This guy's more concerned about maintaining rules rather than actually learning anything useful for self defence. :rolleyes:
(2) Groin w i d e open! I kept telling him over and over and over again, "Your groin's open." "Cover your groin." -- and I'm trying my best not to hit him in the groin, but a couple of times I had some near misses and I kept reminding him that his groin was open. I honestly lost count of how many times I told him this... then the inevitable happened, and my foot made contact with his janglies. Thankfully it was only a light tap... but as every guy knows, even a light tap to the nads really hurts. I didn't mean to hit him there -- again, when sparring you're just operating on automatic. My partner did admit he wasn't wearing a groin guard when he should have been (Sensei did tell everyone to put one on), but was quick to remind me that it's "no contact." I did apologise for hurting him, but reminded him that he should be keeping his groin covered. But he wasn't hurt too badly - it was a light tap and he recovered after a few excruciating seconds and we continued sparring.

There's just way too many counter-intuitive rules in GKR sparring for my liking... and even one of the brown belt double-black tip students has often told me that he finds it incredibly frustrating too. He told me after class that if I were to spar him, he wouldn't mind if I tried to grab him, but advised that I don't do it with the other students, especially anyone below brown belt.

One funny thing was, when I put my partner in a solid arm grapple, he quickly said "no grabbing," and I said, "Okay, but how would you get out of that grab?" and he said, "There's no grabbing until brown belt," and I said, "Alright, but would you like to know how to get out of that grab?" -- he thought for a while and then hesitantly asked, "How?", so then I showed him and then he thanked me. :)

And here's the other thing about the students at this GKR Dojo... none of them are encouraged to think creatively, critically or analytically. They're just taught to follow what Sensei teaches -- parrot rote learning. There's no real problem solving. How can there be when everything's so rigidly structured with no randomness and a highly sanitised system of sparring? When you pull an unexpected move on these students, they don't cope with it. They'll either ignore it, or tell you not to do it.

At my Chen Tai Chi school, we welcomed new and surprising moves. We were always encouraged to look at them and think, "Now how would I counter that?" Sometimes when people come in and show us new stuff we do experiment and think of ways to counter these new moves. We didn't shirk away from the unexpected - we welcomed it.

So... what are people's thoughts on what I should do at this point? Should I:
+ Finish the 3 month trial period and continue to pay $10 per weekly lesson? That way I can at least say that I gave GKR the full set trial period. Though honestly, it's been over a month and nothing's impressed me. Other good schools I've seen have impressed me after a single lesson.
+ Speak to Sensei or the Regional Director or the Sales Rep about my concerns (especially considering that the Sales Rep assured me that GKR was useful for self defence). I'm a bit hesitant in speaking to my Friday night Sensei as she's not incredibly receptive to criticism and tends to treat adult students as if they're children.
+ Just quit now and save myself future angst and money from training in such a detrimental and ineffectual learning environment.
...any advice?

Oh, and one thing that Sensei often tells us: "Remember this is Karate, so no contact." That's right, she's telling people that Karate is non-contact. Not GKR, but Karate itself. :eek:

[Bartrim]

I don't know if talking to the regional manager, sales rep will achieve anything Gok. I think it's pretty clear GKR isn't doing what you had hoped or expected. I'd move onto another school if I were you.

On the competitive front the UFC PPV today featured all heavyweights. I don't if it was the cardio on the losers (Heavyweights cardio is often called into question in the UFC) or the striking power of the winners or a combination of both but the main card featured 5 fights lasting a total of 21minutes and 50 seconds. There were some great knockouts though.:D

[KalEl]

I don't know if talking to the regional manager, sales rep will achieve anything Gok. I think it's pretty clear GKR isn't doing what you had hoped or expected. I'd move onto another school if I were you.

Yeah i'd suggest you finish your three months and move on, hopefully you have a more 'empty cup' next experience you have.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah i'd suggest you finish your three months and move on, hopefully you have a more 'empty cup' next experience you have.
I'm willing to accept differences, but I have my standards and I'm not about to alter them to make something seem more appealing to me.

We're often discerning when we appraise or review toys, cartoons, movies and comic books. Similarly I'm discerning when appraising martial arts classes - especially considering that my primary motivation is self defence, as my safety or life may very well depend on the training. Dubious or false claims of teaching self defence can be very dangerous, as illustrated by Bartrim's example of that guy who's now claiming a disability fund.

[KalEl]

I'm willing to accept differences, but I have my standards and I'm not about to alter them to make something seem more appealing to me.

We're often discerning when we appraise or review toys, cartoons, movies and comic books. Similarly I'm discerning when appraising martial arts classes - especially considering that my primary motivation is self defence, as my safety or life may very well depend on the training. Dubious or false claims of teaching self defence can be very dangerous, as illustrated by Bartrim's example of that guy who's now claiming a disability fund.

i understand your stance, but i don't think they are making false claims to be teaching self defence.

[GoktimusPrime]

i understand your stance, but i don't think they are making false claims to be teaching self defence.
How do you know that? Have you seen my Dojo? From everything I've seen and experienced at my Dojos, it's counter intuitive to teaching self defence. In fact, it's counter intuitive to good teaching because it's based on rote rather than associative engaged and critical pedagogy.

I mean, I personally find Tai Chi to be a good and comprehensive fighting system. But I also know that not all schools teach it that way -- many don't. And quite frankly, unless I've seen a particular school or seen a demonstration from someone from that school, then it's difficult for me to make any judgment about it. I'm not saying that all GKR schools are making dubious claims about teaching self defence, but IMO the GKR schools in my local area have rather questionable practises when it comes to self def. And that's based on my own first hand experience with these schools. I'm not commenting about your GKR school or any other school that I haven't had contact with.

[KalEl]

How do you know that? Have you seen my Dojo? From everything I've seen and experienced at my Dojos, it's counter intuitive to teaching self defence. In fact, it's counter intuitive to good teaching because it's based on rote rather than associative engaged and critical pedagogy.

I mean, I personally find Tai Chi to be a good and comprehensive fighting system. But I also know that not all schools teach it that way -- many don't. And quite frankly, unless I've seen a particular school or seen a demonstration from someone from that school, then it's difficult for me to make any judgment about it. I'm not saying that all GKR schools are making dubious claims about teaching self defence, but IMO the GKR schools in my local area have rather questionable practises when it comes to self def. And that's based on my own first hand experience with these schools. I'm not commenting about your GKR school or any other school that I haven't had contact with.

Fair enough.

[Bartrim]

Every Thursday before class there is black belt club for senior students. I am the only one who attends on Thursdays so it's like a private lesson which is cool. Because it was so fricking cold last Thursday after we warmed up Sensei asked if I just wanted to spar for the lesson. I love sparring so I said sure. After a few rounds he decided that he wanted to do the final round bare knuckle. I am so sore but I am a glutton for punishment and I loved it. I have some massive bruises on my arms and my left leg. One thing I noticed, bare knuckle exposes a lot more gaps then when you wear gloves. I caught my sensei with a cracking shot to the ribs at one point. Probably the best shot I have ever hit him with.

[KalEl]

Every Thursday before class there is black belt club for senior students. I am the only one who attends on Thursdays so it's like a private lesson which is cool. Because it was so fricking cold last Thursday after we warmed up Sensei asked if I just wanted to spar for the lesson. I love sparring so I said sure. After a few rounds he decided that he wanted to do the final round bare knuckle. I am so sore but I am a glutton for punishment and I loved it. I have some massive bruises on my arms and my left leg. One thing I noticed, bare knuckle exposes a lot more gaps then when you wear gloves. I caught my sensei with a cracking shot to the ribs at one point. Probably the best shot I have ever hit him with.

nice! how are your hands after this session?

[Bartrim]

nice! how are your hands after this session?

Yeah fine. I actually hurt my wrist more in the lesson afterwards mis-timing a left hook on some Muay Thai pads.

[KalEl]

Yeah fine. I actually hurt my wrist more in the lesson afterwards mis-timing a left hook on some Muay Thai pads.

I more mean damage to your fists

[Bartrim]

I more mean damage to your fists

Fists are fine. We do do a lot of punching work so my fists are fine. I've split my knuckles on pads plenty of time so my fists are quite well conditioned.

[KalEl]

Fists are fine. We do do a lot of punching work so my fists are fine. I've split my knuckles on pads plenty of time so my fists are quite well conditioned.

awesome :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't know if you guys have seen or used these, but you can actually get focus pads which have purposely strengthened surfaces which sting and condition your knuckles -- some of them actually have a thin layer of ply wood underneat the padding! :eek: My personal focus pads at home are made from this kind of really thick material that delivers a mild sting when you punch them. It's not enough to really hurt or anything, but it does strengthen your knuckles after you get used to them. ;) Of course, you can always use Thai pads too. :D

[KalEl]

I don't know if you guys have seen or used these, but you can actually get focus pads which have purposely strengthened surfaces which sting and condition your knuckles -- some of them actually have a thin layer of ply wood underneat the padding! :eek: My personal focus pads at home are made from this kind of really thick material that delivers a mild sting when you punch them. It's not enough to really hurt or anything, but it does strengthen your knuckles after you get used to them. ;) Of course, you can always use Thai pads too. :D

yup, very common in karate its called a makiwara board.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah yeah, same concept, but more modern execution. :) Traditional makiwara are attached to stationary posts, whereas what I'm talking about are modern focus pads/mitts that have toughened striking surfaces that's not as cushiony soft as regular focus pads and they deliver a slight stinging sensation to the knuckles when you punch them. My Chen Tai Chi teacher had a set of focus pads that were leather, and inside was a layer of soft material, but under that was a layer of wood.

I've yet to make contact with _anything_ in my GKR training so far. I don't know if my Senseis even bring focus pads, shields or bags to training (if they do, I've never seen them in use). I asked one of the more senior students if we ever do padwork, and he said rarely. :(

[KalEl]

Yeah yeah, same concept, but more modern execution. :) Traditional makiwara are attached to stationary posts, whereas what I'm talking about are modern focus pads/mitts that have toughened striking surfaces that's not as cushiony soft as regular focus pads and they deliver a slight stinging sensation to the knuckles when you punch them. My Chen Tai Chi teacher had a set of focus pads that were leather, and inside was a layer of soft material, but under that was a layer of wood.

I've yet to make contact with _anything_ in my GKR training so far. I don't know if my Senseis even bring focus pads, shields or bags to training (if they do, I've never seen them in use). I asked one of the more senior students if we ever do padwork, and he said rarely. :(

when i was actively teaching gkr classes i used to bring in a variety of pads and shields in regularly.

[Bartrim]

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/photo.jpg

Been a week since the bare knuckle sparring. Still have the marks.

[GoktimusPrime]

Hirudoid Cream is your friend. ;) :)

[5FDP]

Hirudoid Cream is your friend. ;) :)

...Or he could just man-up and grow a set ;) :p

[Bartrim]

Hirudoid Cream is your friend. ;) :)


...Or he could just man-up and grow a set ;) :p

Just need a spoonful of concrete:p

[GoktimusPrime]

At least you guys have contact... <jelly> :(

At last week's training all the white belts had to do distanced no touch sparring. I k i d y o u n o t (though I wish I were). We were all paired off in front of a partner, then we had to stand like two metres apart and not come any closer!! :eek: Then "spar." i.e. if someone throws an attack, we're meant to defend against it. Everyone just treated it as one big joke -- because nobody knew when they should block or dodge or anything. Like I'd throw a combination attack, and my partner would usually either just "take" the hits or block too late. And if I "grabbed" them, they would completely ignore it. Hits to the groin, takedowns... nothing registered because we were standing so far away from each other! Half the people couldn't stop giggling and laughing at the activity. I tried to take it seriously and gave it my best effort... but it felt completely pointless. I'd rather do endless kata rote drills than distanced no touch sparring. (-_-)

Then afterwards we played this game where the colour belts have to grab the white belts and bring them over to the far end of the hall where there are these steps, and if you touch the steps, you lose. It took 2 guys (3 at one stage) a long time to take me down - even then because they were just ignore a lot of my attacks, like when I tapped my attacker's face/throat, or grabbed the fabric part of the trousers just below the groin (i.e. simulating crushing their janglies) -- they just ignored it and kept wrestling with me. But in the end it took 2 senior students to take me down, and even then I used scissor legs to take one of them down with me and continued ground-fighting, but the guy tapped out, so I released him. ;) Later one of them apologised to me for "cheating," but I told him it was cool -- because people do cheat in real fights. Cheating's awesome! :D I like it when my attackers are cheap, because it makes me work harder at trying to defend myself against their cheap attacks, which are always the best attacks. :)

Btw, I'm going to Thursday classes now instead of Fridays. They seem to have a slightly better attitude toward self defence than the people at the Friday Dojo (especially the Sensei, whom I've had interesting discussions with), although Sensei admits that while GKR is capable of self defence, it's rarely the focus of their training. :( But one thing I prefer about Friday's class is that they have separate children's and adult classes -- the Thursday Dojo combines them together... and makes adults and children work together as if they're equals, which I find frustrating. Like half the people I was No Touch Sparring against were kids... one of them was so small I had to get down on my knees (I didn't even bother trying to "attack" him, I just "defended" with one hand). So there are some parts of Thu's training that I prefer, but some parts that I don't.

The No Touch Sparring thing is just ridiculous... aside from really not equipping you with any skills (no more than doing just basics against thin air, which you might as well be doing - in theory students are meant to react to their opponent moving, but reality it doesn't happen (at least not properly) because there's never any threat of them coming in range or ever touching you)), it's potentially dangerous in giving students (especially the children) false confidence in believing that they can defend themselves. (-_-) I told the Thu Sensei that I have sparred before in the Fri classes and I do bring sparring gear with me, but I was told that they never let White Belts spar because of insurance/safety reasons... fair enough... but again, I'd rather be doing katas or basics than this George Dillman inspired form of fighting! :eek:
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n307/Final_Emblem/Hadouken.gif

[KalEl]

Just need a spoonful of concrete:p

hehe

[Bartrim]

So we had a grading yesterday as it was the end of a turn. I am unable to grade until the end of the year as I will be going for my first brown belt. Even though I couldn't grade I participated then the training anyway and got to meet formally (He was at our grand opening but never officially met him) Shihan Rob Williams. We always have guest instructors from other KRMAS academies come to gradings but I consider myself lucky that it was him who came to our grading yesterday. As well as being the Australian National Sanda coach he also owns the Lithgow academy where I will be grading at the end of the year. Got to go to dinner with him and my sensei and he gave me some valuable insight to the path to black belt and the journey afterwards.

[KalEl]

So we had a grading yesterday as it was the end of a turn. I am unable to grade until the end of the year as I will be going for my first brown belt. Even though I couldn't grade I participated then the training anyway and got to meet formally (He was at our grand opening but never officially met him) Shihan Rob Williams. We always have guest instructors from other KRMAS academies come to gradings but I consider myself lucky that it was him who came to our grading yesterday. As well as being the Australian National Sanda coach he also owns the Lithgow academy where I will be grading at the end of the year. Got to go to dinner with him and my sensei and he gave me some valuable insight to the path to black belt and the journey afterwards.

very cool dude

[GoktimusPrime]

They say that black belt is when the real training begins (everything before then is prelim). Do you guys actually incorporate Sanda techniques in your Karate training? (or does is it taught separately?). For anyone reading this who may not know, Sanda (aka Sanshou) is a modern Chinese martial sport. I must admit that Sanda has produced some very impressive fighters, particularly Cung Le... I'm quite impressed at his ability to connect hits and make combos flow from that. He's also quite good at just flooring his opponents in as few moves as possible. :) Which is precisely how one should aim to fight in a self defence scenario -- that "This ends NOW!" mentality (or as Karate calls it, "One hit one kill") :D I've personally never tried Sanda myself, so I can't really comment much more about it.

[Bartrim]

They say that black belt is when the real training begins (everything before then is prelim). Do you guys actually incorporate Sanda techniques in your Karate training? (or does is it taught separately?). For anyone reading this who may not know, Sanda (aka Sanshou) is a modern Chinese martial sport. I must admit that Sanda has produced some very impressive fighters, particularly Cung Le... I'm quite impressed at his ability to connect hits and make combos flow from that. He's also quite good at just flooring his opponents in as few moves as possible. :) Which is precisely how one should aim to fight in a self defence scenario -- that "This ends NOW!" mentality (or as Karate calls it, "One hit one kill") :D I've personally never tried Sanda myself, so I can't really comment much more about it.

He basically said the same thing. Once you get your black belt the world of martial arts opens up to you and then the real training begins. Yes we do incorporate some Sanda techniques into our class. Mainly the sweeps, throws and kick catching work as our striking is mainly karate with a bit of our Muay Thai syllabus incorporated.
One thing that did catch me off guard in our dinner conversation was when Shihan Rob said he likes that I do karate (our school offers 3 seperate classes, karate, Muay Thai and MMA). He said he hates the fakers that take the MMA classes thinking they are going to be the next ultimate fighter. He said by me taking karate it shows I take my martial arts seriously and he respects that.

I am quite surprised that you know who Cung Le is Gok. I thought you weren't a fan of competitive martial arts.

[GoktimusPrime]

I am quite surprised that you know who Cung Le is Gok. I thought you weren't a fan of competitive martial arts.
You're right, and I won't deny that I'm not a fan of competition fighting, but even I must admit that Cung Le has amazing fight skills that puts some traditional martial artists to shame. :)

[KalEl]

You're right, and I won't deny that I'm not a fan of competition fighting, but even I must admit that Cung Le has amazing fight skills that puts some traditional martial artists to shame. :)

I enjoy competitive fighting and cung le :p

[Bartrim]

I enjoy competitive fighting and cung le :p

Same:) It's a shame he fights in a different weight class to Lyoto Machida... That would be an awesome fight.

[KalEl]

Same:) It's a shame he fights in a different weight class to Lyoto Machida... That would be an awesome fight.

I'll fight him :D

[GoktimusPrime]

We were going through kicks in tonight's class, one of the new guys asked how to block a roundhouse kick, and Sensei showed us a block that we (white belts) have never learnt before. One of the red belts recommended that we could use Gedan-Barai, which is probably what I would've said too considering the exceeding limited repertoire that we've been taught, but Sensei disagreed. IMO neither the block she showed or the Gedan are better or worse than the other... and really, kicks are better off being blocked with legs than hands/arms (which you would use only if the kick's come in too fast for you to get your leg up in time - so arm blocks against kicks are still useful IMO as a backup). I was talking to that red belt later and asked him if he's ever been kicked by someone with a massively powerful roundhouse kick (like say, a lot of Muay Thai fighters)... cos blocking those with your arms would cane! :o (even blocking them with your legs hurts, but I'd hate to imagine how painful they'd be to block with arms!)

GKR kicks are similar to Tai Chi kicks insofar that the knee is lifted first before doing the kick, which sacrifices power, but gains greater manoeuvreability and versatility. Other fighters launch their kicks straight from the ground without lifting the knee first. While they sacrifice manoeuvreability and versatility, they gain massive power! XO Although I must say that one significant difference w/ the GKR roundhouse kick is that the knee is lifted up to the side instead of in front like with a front, side and back kick (in Tai Chi we lift to the front, same as every other kick). I can see that this is to help give the roundhouse kick more power, but damn it _completely_ opens the groin!! :eek: If you wanna generate more power, I reckon you're better off just launching the kick straight off from the ground and forget about the knee lift. Lifting it off to the side when kicking straight ahead kinda defeats the versatility advantage since you're exposing yourself anyway. :o

Sensei then asked if there were any other questions, and I asked what the defence is against someone who grabs your kicking leg. Sensei's response said that it would never happen because grabbing is against the rules in GKR. So I said, but what about in self defence? Sensei then said that our kicks just need to be faster than the opponent's grab... but I think she quickly realised that it wasn't a very good answer (because the obvious next question would've been "But what if they do grab you?!") - which was on everyone's face. So she paused and thought for a while, then asked one of the senior students to grab her leg and she tried to get out of it... but couldn't. So she told us that there you can't get out if someone grabs your kicking leg. :eek: :eek: :eek: Again... good luck fighting a grappler, guys. :rolleyes: Heck, even people who do Wrestling (like the kind they do at the Olympics) will grab your legs! I once sparred against a wrestler who dived at my ankles and grabbed both of them and quickly lifted them up over my head before jumping on me -- I had to go into breakfall and use ground-fighting techniques against him because I'd completely lost my footing.

Anyway, I politely asked Sensei if I could show them something, and I asked the senior student to grab my leg, and just showed them a very simple technique where you just shift your weight forward into the leg that's being held (i.e. so that the person holding your leg ends up bearing your entire body weight), and of course with elbows bearing forward as you do. I told Sensei that I wanted to know what GKR's counter to a leg grab was, which was the initial purpose of my question - and she understood that and said that she'll get back to me next week with an answer.

Anyway, next week's the last week of my trial period. Unless something amazing happens then that impresses me and convinces me to continue with GKR in my area, I'm likely to look elsewhere for a more effectual place to learn self defence. There's a BJJ school not far from me that I might have a look at.

[KalEl]

We were going through kicks in tonight's class, one of the new guys asked how to block a roundhouse kick, and Sensei showed us a block that we (white belts) have never learnt before. One of the red belts recommended that we could use Gedan-Barai, which is probably what I would've said too considering the exceeding limited repertoire that we've been taught, but Sensei disagreed. IMO neither the block she showed or the Gedan are better or worse than the other... and really, kicks are better off being blocked with legs than hands/arms (which you would use only if the kick's come in too fast for you to get your leg up in time - so arm blocks against kicks are still useful IMO as a backup). I was talking to that red belt later and asked him if he's ever been kicked by someone with a massively powerful roundhouse kick (like say, a lot of Muay Thai fighters)... cos blocking those with your arms would cane! :o (even blocking them with your legs hurts, but I'd hate to imagine how painful they'd be to block with arms!)

GKR kicks are similar to Tai Chi kicks insofar that the knee is lifted first before doing the kick, which sacrifices power, but gains greater manoeuvreability and versatility. Other fighters launch their kicks straight from the ground without lifting the knee first. While they sacrifice manoeuvreability and versatility, they gain massive power! XO Although I must say that one significant difference w/ the GKR roundhouse kick is that the knee is lifted up to the side instead of in front like with a front, side and back kick (in Tai Chi we lift to the front, same as every other kick). I can see that this is to help give the roundhouse kick more power, but damn it _completely_ opens the groin!! :eek: If you wanna generate more power, I reckon you're better off just launching the kick straight off from the ground and forget about the knee lift. Lifting it off to the side when kicking straight ahead kinda defeats the versatility advantage since you're exposing yourself anyway. :o



That is very odd as to an adult a Gedan-Barai should be taught on you very first day as it is fundamental. I disagree with using the legs to block any more than to 'check a kick. The sweeping blocks (gedan) and exceptionally good for blocking direct straight-line kicks such as a front kick as it required little power and easy control to deflect a kick. round kicks are a bit different as the target area can vary from calf to head to saying one block it better than the other is void.
Using hands9arms) as a back up block for kicks is Like icing a cake before you cook it, karate and kick-boxing a two different beast and should be viewed so. Blocking with the arm is much more efficient than the leg as its faster and uses less energy, this being that the correct block is used for the correct circumstance using the correct technique. Plus how can you block a head kick with your leg?

As for the power argument. It's the same as blocking, regardless of preparation position the technique must be correct or it doesn't matter if you kick from ground up or knee first. For example a club kick from muay thai is from the ground, where a round kick in karate is from the knee. That being said in gkr you get taught the side (groin exposing) prep to create muscle memory for correct hip activation during the kick, but in application the kick is almost a hybrid of knee and ground preps, it almost comes up on an angle. Think of the knee like a baseball pitchers arm, it determines the direction. Even though the Roundkick with said preparation seems weak its not, ONLY if correct hip and core activation is used.

[GoktimusPrime]

That is very odd as to an adult a Gedan-Barai should be taught on you very first day as it is fundamental.
It was. So I was surprised that it wasn't taught as an application to counter a kick - rather we were shown a block that we'd never been taught before. That's rather counter-intuitive from a teaching-learning POV.


I disagree with using the legs to block any more than to 'check a kick. The sweeping blocks (gedan) and exceptionally good for blocking direct straight-line kicks such as a front kick as it required little power and easy control to deflect a kick. round kicks are a bit different as the target area can vary from calf to head to saying one block it better than the other is void.
Using hands9arms) as a back up block for kicks is Like icing a cake before you cook it,
We'll have to agree to disagree on that. At the end of the day, the best block is the block that works for you. :)


karate and kick-boxing a two different beast and should be viewed so.
Sure, but remember that in a fight you're gonna have no idea what kind of fighting technique your opponent has been trained in. They could use a knee-lift first kick, or a straight-from-ground kick... you won't know until the kick's already launched. Thus it's useful to be prepared for all kinds of kicks. If your method of blocking is effectual against all kinds of kicks, then thumbs up to you. :cool:


Blocking with the arm is much more efficient than the leg as its faster and uses less energy, this being that the correct block is used for the correct circumstance using the correct technique.
I agree, but leg blocks can work well if you can anticipate the kick early enough to get your leg up. If not, then yes, arm blocks would be the way to go - hence why I prefer using them as back-ups when the kicks are too fast for me to get my leg up to block. And I find that knee-lift kicks are harder to predict because you see the knee come up, but it could then morph into a front kick or roundhouse or side kick etc., which gives you less time to pre-empt, so more often I'm using arm blocks against knee-up kicks. When I've sparred with people who do off-ground kicks, I find them easier to predict because you just see the kick coming from ages away, and thus I'm more likely to have enough time to get my knee up and block it with my leg. Another advantage of leg blocks is that straight after the block you can step right through the opponent's centre of mass, which can be a good lead in for a grapple or throw or just generally getting them off balance. Simply blocking without closing in gives them the opportunity to kick you a second time.


Plus how can you block a head kick with your leg?
That's true. I'd block it with an arm. Of course, in traditional martial arts we never kick the head because that just opens the groin (if I wanna hit the head, I'll punch/elbow/headbutt it!). If someone were to do a head kick at me, if the kick was too fast, then I'd block it like a roundhouse punch or "cage" myself with my arm. If I'm able to react fast enough, then I'd get under that leg and attack the groin. Or I can do both (i.e. block/grab the leg, then pull them in to grab the janglies).


That being said in gkr you get taught the side (groin exposing) prep to create muscle memory for correct hip activation during the kick, but in application the kick is almost a hybrid of knee and ground preps, it almost comes up on an angle. Think of the knee like a baseball pitchers arm, it determines the direction. Even though the Roundkick with said preparation seems weak its not, ONLY if correct hip and core activation is used.
The problem with this technique though is that it gets students into a habit of lifting their knee up to the side and exposing their groin before delivering a round kick. If, as you say, the actual application is different from this, then why not simply teach the kick closer to how it is applied in the first place?

Also, allow me to clarify - when I said that knee-lift kicks sacrifice power, I didn't mean to say that they have no power or that they're weak. Knee-lift kicks, when done correctly, ARE very powerful indeed! :D "Sacrificing power" probably wasn't the right choice of words -- it's possibly more accurate to say that off-ground kicks generate power through the use of sheer force (due to the wider swings), whereas knee-up kicks rely more on rotational energy/torsion to build power. Off-ground kicks are easier to do because you just swing your leg up like a club - knee-up kicks are more technical, but you're right in that they can generate just as much energy (just in a different manner) -- and knee-up kicks have the added advantage of greater manoeuvrability and versatility. :D

On a completely different matter, Sensei calls the Sanchindachi the "hourglass stance," but for some reason one of the senior students didn't like this and kept correcting her and insisting that it's called "pigeon toe stance" and that the correct translation is pigeon toe stance not hourglass stance. :rolleyes: Actually, neither of them are correct -- Sanchindachi translates as "Three Battles stance" (Sanchin is derived from the Chinese word "Sam Chiem"(三戦)). Quite frankly, I don't care if someone wants to call it the pigeon toe stance or the hour glass stance or the "I really need to pee!" stance. :p Just as long as everyone in the class knows what the teacher means and does it correctly.

Later when I was training with that senior student who was going through stances with us, and again tried to tell us that the 'correct pronunciation' was "pigeon toed" stance, I corrected him and told him that it actually means "three battles stance." He then said, "Oh yeah, that's right, a friend of mine once told me that," then proceeded to keep calling it pigeon toed stance for the rest of the exercise. Again, I don't have a problem with this... but I just thought it was kinda odd that he finds it okay to give this stance an arbitrary name that's not a direct translation, but Sensei can't?? :confused: Righteo then. :rolleyes:

[KalEl]

I'm returning to Judo soon :)

[Bartrim]

I'm returning to Judo soon :)

Awesome:)

I hope Anderson Silva whoops Chael Sonnen this arvo