Martial arts discussion thread

[GoktimusPrime]

Here's the old thread (http://otca.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=2333&hl=martial)

There are two things I want to start discuss here:
1. Roundhouse punches: dos and don'ts
2. Ducking and weaving: why bother?

Roundhouse Punches

Believe it or not, but some people don't know how to throw a real roundhouse punch - and I think this comes from the fact that some people are too used to training with boxing gloves on or that they train for competitions rather than self defence... I don't know... I've only seen a few schools teach this dubious style of roundhouse punching (thankfully most schools I've seen don't teach this way).

Anyway, here's what I'm talking about...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/toys/roundhousepunches.jpg

Fig.A1: This is the dubious roundhouse punch in question here. I've heard some people describe it as "holding a coffee mug" - so you imagine you're holding a coffee mug while swinging your fist around to the opponent. In other words, your palm is facing toward the opponent. I have two problems with this method of punching.
1/ it doesn't deliver as much torque (and thus generate as much power) as more conventional forms of roundhouse punching (Fig.A3) due to the lack of rotation in the forearm. Remember that torsion is rotational energy - the more you twist the more torque you generate. So bio-mechanically speaking this is a weaker punch.
2/ It leaves exposes the softer part of the forearm and wrist (re: tendons!) toward the attacker, which leaves it vulnerable to attacks, particular to being cut by a blade (more on this in a moment).

Fig.A2: Not a roundhouse punch, but a "Karate chop" which is a similar style attack only that it's an open hand instead of a fist. I think it's also called a knife hand or "shuto" in some styles. Although not a punch I prefer this over the "coffee mug" style as it at least gives you a 90 degree forearm/wrist rotation, thus generating more torque. The palm is facing "Heaven" (upward) and the softer part of the forearm and tendons are not directly facing the opponent.

Fig.A3: What I consider to be a more conventional roundhouse punch and it's what I've seen more commonly done in martial arts - Kung Fu, Karate etc etc.
1/ This gives you a 180 degree rotation, double the amount of torque generated by the 'chop.' This kind of roundhouse punching was favoured by Muslim warriors during the Crusades.
2/ The palm and tendons are facing away from the opponent, leaving the harder part of the forearm/wrist facing the opponent.

Now, in the chance that your roundhouse punch is intercepted by a blade and you get cut, here are the options offered by the "coffee mug" and more conventional styles of roundhouse punching.

Fig.B1: In the conventional style, the blade cuts the harder side of the forearm/wrist (this part of the arm can be hardened through conditioning) - although it's painful and unpleasant, with most superficial slashes you will be able to continue using that forearm and hand in fighting.

Fig.B2: In the "coffee mug" style, the blade cuts the softer side of the forearm/wrist and it doesn't take a deep slash to cut the tendons. Once the tendons are cut, your hand is rendered ineffectual - not to mention that it's a whole lot more painful too. This part of your forearm cannot be hardened through conditioning. Even the toughest body-building gym junkie will have soft wrists around the tendons. That's why it's easy to feel someone's pulse around there. ;)

So yeah... my conclusion about the coffee mug style is that it's just a big waste of time. :/

Ducking and Weaving

Ducking and weaving is a technique commonly used in competitive fighting sports like modern boxing. This is all fine in a sport environment where you're essentially just fighting as a game, but it's a whole different matter when you're looking at self-defence. The reason why I'm bringing this up is because I have come across a few schools that actually teach their students ducking and weaving but without disclaiming that the move cannot be used in a real fight, and in some cases, claiming that it can be used in self defence.

Here's a simple description of how ducking and weaving works and why I have my doubts about its application in self defence...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/toys/ducking_weaving.jpg

Fig.A: The attacker (Green Goblin) throws a roundhouse punch at the defender's (Spiderman) head.
Fig.B: The defender ducks under the attacker's incoming punch and will weave out to the side for a counterstrike.
Fig.C1: Defender has weaved and stepped out to the side and launched a punch back at the defender.

That's ideally how ducking and weaving is supposed to work. My question about this move is that when the defender is ducking and weaving under the incoming punching arm, he leaves his neck and upper spine exposed, allowing the attacker to quite easily attack the neck/spine (Fig.C2). In this example I've got the Green Goblin dropping his elbow onto Spidey's vertebrae, but he could also deliver a downward chop, punch etc. - all kinds of nasties... the problem here is that Spidey has left his spine totally exposed.

In competitive sports like boxing, it is illegal to attack the spine, hence they don't defend it. In a real fight, there are no rules.

[Borgeman]

roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...

George

[TheDirtyDigger]

I don't know Gok. Looks a little contrived to me.

[GoktimusPrime]

Charming.

That's the difference between ducking and weaving (bobbing) and other more conventional forms of ducking in traditional martial arts, e.g.: using a Circle-Entering Step or Kneeling Stance - the crucial difference is that with something like a Circle-Entering stance the spine is kept erect thus keeping it unexposed. With a modern boxing style duck and weave, the head leans forward and thus the spine faces "Heaven" and is exposed.

A boxing style duck and weave is easier to do because it doesn't require as much crouching/kneeling with the leg work, but at the expense of exposing the spine - which is an illegal target in boxing, so boxers don't really care about that. It is possible to be quite dexterous with a Circle Entering stance, but it requires more lower body work - more springing, hopping, sliding etc., and of course, it keeps the spine less exposed.

It's for this same reason why boxers will lean their head forward when delivering an uppercut - it gives more power to the uppercut, but exposes the head and upper vertebrae to danger from a strike or head lock/neck-twist

Here are some images of how boxers will happily lean their heads forward...

An illustration of the bobbing style of ducking/weaving used in modern boxing and other competition fights
http://www.boxrec.com/media/images/thumb/1/1a/T%C3%AAte1.jpg/110px-T%C3%AAte1.jpg

The boxer on the right is blocking his attacker's uppercut by dropping his elbow, but notice how he's willing to lean his head toward his opponent - this would only work in a sport/comp fight. In a real fight it is dangerously exposing the head/neck/upper spine
http://www.eastsideboxing.com/boxing-news/images/brockcrunchingettienne.jpg

A boxer will lean his head forward to deliver more power for his uppercut, but again leaving the head/neck exposed to danger if he were in a real fight
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41865000/jpg/_41865474_enzo_uppercut_203.jpg


Now compare this with more traditional martial arts...

A Kneeling Stance - although in this application he's attacking an opponent on the ground, which is kinda strange. If I wanted to attack a grounded opponent I'd just repeatedly kick/stomp. But anyway, the actual stance here is sound - note how the upper body is erect.
http://www.ingber.com/karate00_keri_no_kata/keri_27.jpg

When attacking a standing opponent, the Kneeling stance should look more like this...
http://www.darkwhysper.net/gallery/kubodo/kubodo17.jpg
...although this guy is leaning to his left for some odd reason. Combine this guy's handwork with the guy above's leg/body position and you have a more ideal kneeling stance. ;)

A Circle Entering stance - this stance is effectively spot on. This application has him kneeling quite low which a lot of people do for conditioning.
http://thump01.pbase.com/u44/foxchest/small/28618867.jpg


roundhouse punching donts - dont do it from behind, thats evil...
That sounds like a competition attitude. In a real fight or actual self defence situation, there are no "dirty" moves - you do what you can to survive. There are legal limits in what you can do (i.e.: equal or lesser force) but beyond there's virtually no limitation on what you can do to defend yourself in real life.

[sifun]

I think bob and weave can be used in the correct situation, even works in the ring to some extent as well, so i don't see how it can't in a real fighting situation.
if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly

Maybe they do it for take downs as well for ground fighting

[GoktimusPrime]

It works well in the ring because it is illegal to attack (and especially illegal to break/severe) the neck and upper spine. Aside from laws, there are also referees, judges and the audience (re: witnesses!) who would greatly disuade your attacker from pulling an illegal move like that. In a street fight, you don't have these conditions.

Although the law does restrict what we can do in a fight - mainly in regard to using equal or lesser force - you cannot automatically assume that your opponent is going to be totally law-abiding. I mean, in a self-defence situation, if the other person started the fight, they've already broken the law by assaulting you, so it's not as if they've established a good reputation with you for being a nice law-abiding citizen! :) It's for this same reason that I've often been critical against people who expose their genitals in a fight. Works fine in the ring where attacking the genitals is disallowed, but not in a real fight.


if someone if punching widly, i'm sure they just want to hit something and not aiming properly
In other words, assuming that your opponent is inferior. That's a dangerous assumption to make in a fight. In a fight you should always assume that your opponent is superior to you. They may not be, but you ought to assume that they are stronger, faster and better skilled than you are. And that's another gripe I have with a lot of martial arts schools/instructors. :/

The one thing to keep in mind in a real fight is Murphy's Law: anything that can go wrong will. Always have a Plan B in case Plan A screws up and a Plan C in case Plan B screws up too and so on and so on - it becomes a connective cyclical flow that changes according to how the situation changes. This is visually represented in the Yin Yang and Ba Gua hexagrams (King Wen)which actually forms a 64-bit algorithm as it's all based on a series of sequential logic gates.

The Ba Gua Hexagrams: 8 across x 8 down = 64b (bits) = 8B (bytes)
http://www.kheper.net/topics/I_Ching/loshu64.gif

It is also the nature of the Art of War. You must be able to constantly adapt and change to outmaneouvre your opponent. You don't need martial arts training to fight an inferior foe... the real art of war is defeating someone who's better than you are! ;)

[Saintly]

that hexagram just waaaaay over my head!

just fight already :P

[i_amtrunks]

You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...

[GoktimusPrime]

It's binary logic - 00010011110100001010011101010001110010

0 = yin, 1 = yang

http://hinessight.blogs.com/hinessight/images/yin_yang.jpg

It's all about what technique to use when, and the timing is often dependent on the situation, which is constantly in flux. So Yin Yang often represents two extreme techniques in fighting...
e.g.:
0 = soft, 1 = hard
0 = high, 1 = low
0 = retreat, 1 = advance
0 = grapple, 1 = strike
0 = close range, 1 = long range
0 = circular, 1 = linear

When should you be 0, when should you be 1? It depends on what the opponent is doing. And another thing that the Yin Yang symbol points out is that in each extreme there is an element of the other. You can be hard with some element of softness (e.g.: Okinawan Goujuu), and soft with some element of hardness (e.g.: qigong).

Quick example, one mistake that a lot of newbs make when they're grappled and/or placed into submission holds is that they hardened/seize up their body and try to flee by moving/pulling away from the grappler... and usually all that does is allow the grappler to tighten their lock! They're often surprised when you show them that counter-grappling usually involves relaxing and softening your body and moving into the grappler rather than away from them.


You forgot to mention another good attack when your opponent ducks under a punch...

Knee to the face or sternum...
That would work too, but dropping onto the vertebrae is easier IMO and harder to counter. If you were to try to knee someone in the face or sternum while they were bobbing under your punch it's not that hard for them to block it - blocking a downward strike to your back while you're leaning forward - I don't see how that's even possible. You'd be better off just tackling/charging the other guy rather than trying to block.

[i_amtrunks]

That would work too, but dropping onto the vertebrae is easier IMO and harder to counter. If you were to try to knee someone in the face or sternum while they were bobbing under your punch it's not that hard for them to block it - blocking a downward strike to your back while you're leaning forward - I don't see how that's even possible. You'd be better off just tackling/charging the other guy rather than trying to block.

Yeah kneeing is easier to block, but you really have to be focused to block it since you are trying to move almost all your body at once in reaction to another person.

Blocking your neck when under a person is nigh impossible, and even if it's only a hyper-active 6 year old, if they get an elbow your neck it really hurts!

Hell go for the win, knee to the sternum and a blow to the neck simultaneously!

[GoktimusPrime]

that would be difficult to effectively execute because kneeing and downward striking require different weight distributions in your stances. I would say go for one or the other. If he blocks your knee, that's still fine because you've still successfully thwarted his attempt to weave around you. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

So many martial arts and self-defence demonstrations make the common mistake of portraying the opponent as less competent/incompetent - in short, continuing along the dangerous assumption that your opponent is not better than you, and often assuming that they're inferior.

Check out this so-called defence against a bear-hug. (original URL (http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=449))

http://www.fightingarts.com/content04/graphics/bearhug2-1.jpg
"The grab from the rear: mid to high around the defender’s upper arms"

http://www.fightingarts.com/content04/graphics/bearhug2-2.jpg
"The defender drives his elbows out to the side (to loosen the initial hold), while he sinks downward under it."
Okay, at this stage the defender must be aware that his opponent has begun to counter his hold and would be working to either abort the hold or execute a counter-counter technique to maintain his hold.

http://www.fightingarts.com/content04/graphics/bearhug2-3.jpg
The defender drives his elbow backward into the opponent’s lower ribs.
wtf... why is the attacker still trying to bear hug him when it's clearly no longer working?! Is he retarded??

"In this defense the response must be immediate and hard. If you are able to slip away there are many counter attack options in addition to elbow strike shown here. You can then escape."
http://www.fightingarts.com/content04/graphics/bearhug2-4.jpg
If, however, you are well versed in jujutsu or aikido you may elect to control the opponent. If the opponent’s arms are still around you or near your side you could elect to do an arm control technique (called sankyo in aikido). Here your arms move from an elbow strike to grasp your opponent’s right hand.
...and why isn't the attacker thumping this guy with his left arm, legs, shoulders, elbows, hips, head etc?? The defender has just casually waltzed into the attacker's "inside" which is very dangerous because he has instantly exposed himself to the rest of the attacker's body. It would have been wiser for him to step to the "outside." Stepping into the inside requires you to step much closer than what this guy's doing. What he's doing here is a relatively simple grappling technique from a distance which you just wouldn't do when you're standing on the opponent's inside because it's just to easy for him to start pummelling the crap out of you with the rest of his body.

http://www.fightingarts.com/content04/graphics/bearhug2-5.jpg
"You then move back under the opponent’s arm (while changing your grasp)" - and what? The attacker just idly lets you do this how?!? - and turning with your whole body to the left toward your opponent, lift and twist the opponent’s arm up (his elbow pointed upward) and to his back (the full details of this technique are left for another article). (3) This can be very painful."

The end result of this technique with that arm lock is fine - it's just the way that they got there that I find difficult to accept. (-_-)

The article does include a disclaimer that they've presumed that the attacker is "non-trained" - thus admitting that they're presuming that the attacker is inferior. *sigh*

It's hard to find demonstrations that don't make this silly presumption...

[tron07]

Goktimus, are you into any type of martial arts??

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah. I personally mostly train in Seven Star Praying Mantis Kung Fu.
Some basic mantis grappling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9qnAeEaxVk)
Mantis counter to being grabbed from behind (single hand shoulder grab) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b7oCmGmYL4)

[GoktimusPrime]

kup's Omega Supreme video got me thinking about some of the terrible ways that some people walk/step in martial arts - and that also got me thinking about some of the bad ways that people just stand while fighting.

As any martial artist who's even worth listening to will tell you, the most fundamental aspect of fighting is the way you stand - your stance. Even boxers will work on their boxing stance, albeit at a far simpler level compared to martial arts (since modern boxing is more of a sport than a fighting art). I once heard a Goju Karate beginner tell me that her Sensei said that "if stance is wrong, all Karate wrong" - which I agree with.

So long as you're in an environment with a solid surface beneath your feet and gravity to contend with, you will need stances and methods of stepping.

One of the first things you learn as a beginner in almost any martial art is stances - one of the most common of these is the Riding Horse Stance (called "Ma Bu" in Chinese or "Kibadachi" in Japanese). One mistake that a lot of people make with their stances is that they're don't root themselves into their stance. A lot of people make the mistake of standing "on" Earth instead of "into" it.

When we learn striking techniques like punching, kicking etc. we are taught not to punch at the target, but through it. In other words, when delivering the strike, we aim behind the target in order to drive the force of that strike through it. It's a similar concept with stances (although not quite so forceful) - we need to drive our centre of gravity into the ground, not just on it. There's a lot of talk about driving Qi (Ki) from Heaven to Earth yada yada yada, but essentially we're talking about anchorage. When you have a good solid stance, you should be rooted into the ground - metaphorically speaking as if you're a tree spreading your roots through the earth.

Now about walking/stepping - the Omega Supreme video reminds me of how some people step in martial arts, especially people who do some internal styles of martial arts like Baguazhang (Eight Trigram Palm) Kung Fu etc.; they tend to do this "sliding through mud" kind of shuffling step - much like how Omega Supreme walks (well, shuffles). It's like this... mincing about instead of true stepping. Although internal arts like Bagua do have less pronounced forms of stepping, it is still actual stepping and not shuffling. True Bagua walking is more like "stepping on half-eggshells" or "stepping over carpet snakes" - there is a distinct rolling action with the feet.

Shuffling in martial arts is essentially reserved for special situations, like fighting in very wet mud which traps your feet and makes it difficult to step normally... in such situations it makes more sense to shuffle instead of stepping. But on more solid dry surfaces, shuffling doesn't make sense, and it decreases the integrity of your basic stance and step (which again, are vitally fundamental aspects of your fighting form).

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvYDhhbw3x0) shows someone practising a Baguazhang form with that shuffling/mincing step. If you're stepping like this in a fight, and you're not standing in saturated mud (or if you just so happen to be Omega Supreme), then you're not stepping correctly!

This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8l8j2LS6LA) shows someone practising a Baguazhang form, but with much better stepping. As I mentioned before, Bagua stepping is by it's very nature quite subdued compared to a lot of other martial arts (remember, it is an internal martial art) but you'll see that his feet are still clearly stepping, not shuffling or mincing. There is a clear rolling action in his traction (heh). He's not doing the Omega Supreme shuffle! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Here is an excellent throwing demonstration (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QLyIlt6LyoI&eurl) - from an internal Northern Kung Fu style known as "Baguazhang" ("Eight Trigram Palm").

Earlier this week I visited a martial arts school where I tried out their first free trial lesson (which most schools offer and I like to take advantage off to sample their styles :)) ... I didn't get an opportunity to watch or train with any of the senior students there, which was unfortunate - this was yet another school which disallowed students from different levels from training with each other (sigh). Yet I heard the instructor chastise his junior students for being too 'compliant'/'easy' on their partners - which is a fine point, but if you really want to make these junior students train harder, put them up against more senior students! He specifically said, "We only become good because our opponent is good," - something which is hard to achieve if you're only ever training with someone who isn't better than you are! So he knows the concept in theory but fails to put it in practice - all he does is tell his juniors to fight harder... but they're noobs! They can only fight at noob level - if you want them to fight harder, put them up against a more senior student!

Then later on the instructor came up to my partner and me (both of us who were first-timers there) and tried to demonstrate the technique that we were supposed to be practising, which was a defence against a choke resulting in grounding and locking (standing-grappling) the attacker. He told me to choke him, so I did... then he tried to do the counter and ground-lock me, but I easily maneouvred and thwarted him from applying it. So then he tells me that the technique didn't work because I didn't attack him properly and tells me to attack him properly. So I tried again and he tells me that I'm doing it wrong and tells me that I need to try and choke him like I want to kill him, but without actually constricting the trachea (which is fair enough as that would actually be lethal). So I did that. He tried the counter again and I outmaneouvred him again without too much effort. He kinda looked like he was getting frustrated and tells me that I'm not attacking him properly, I asked him if he wanted me to just submit - but he said no. He tells me again that I need to seriously choke him and move forward with the choke. So I tried that, and he goes (with his voice constrained), "that's it," and tried the counter again. Again, I moved and it failed. Again he tells me that I'm not attacking him right and suggested that I don't know how to do a proper choke-attack, so I asked him to correct me and tell me what I'm doing wrong or what I need to do differently - he tells me that he doesn't tell people how to attack him and that it was up to me to attack him however I wanted to and that he would counter it. I did... we had the same tirade again, and he tries to counter it, but I slipped out easily; this time as I slipped out he quickly fires a succession of three punches at me, the first one hits but I blocked the other two. His frustration then seemed to increase - similar conversation reoccured and he tries the counter again, this time SLAMMING my elbow real hard (as if he wanted to break it) then fired a few hits which I blocked/evaded. He then goes on to explain that 'unfortunately' in a class situation he wasn't able to actually break my arm and that in a real fight he would've broken my arm and that would've been the end of the fight.

I said, "No it wouldn't" but I don't know if he didn't hear me or if he deliberately chose to ignore me. Okay, having a broken arm would put me at a disadvantage - but that alone would not finish me and be the end of the fight. I still have the rest of my body at my disposal - even if he attacks me on the side where my elbow was broken I would still be able to block/deflect/barge with my shoulder and execute headbutts, use my hip, knee, leg etc. - and of course, my other side would still be just fine.

I would maybe expect a noob to say something like that - but an instructor?! (O_o) Noone is actually finished unless you've incapacitated their ability to attack you (which doesn't necessarily mean you have to hurt them).

The whole thing really reminded me of this skit by Jim Carey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_vvI26NnwE) :D

...in the end I just submitted and let him put the hold on me because I just couldn't be bothered watching the poor bugger try and fail again and again for the rest of the evening... especially if he's going to get angry and try breaking my limbs - not worth the bloody trouble. :/

This school claims to practice a martial art style that I'd never heard about - and in fact combines the names of two entirely different martial arts and claims it to be a traditional martial art despite the fact that these two arts have entirely different histories. I asked the instructor about the history of his style, he gave me a story which I'd never heard about and kinda indirectly contradicts existing history that I know of... I tried to Google more information about it, but found nothing substantial, and one source says, "The authenticity of these claims are controversial." ... so as far as I can tell so far, the authenticity of this style appears to be dubious at best. :/

I'm not going to name this style or school here. If you're thinking about taking up a martial art, do your research into its authenticity - you can ask me and I'll tell you what I know. Check the instructor or school's claims as you would any other document... by cross-referencing their sources (just as you would examine the bibliography of an essay or publication). I would recommend finding at least three independent sources that can verify their claims.

[GoktimusPrime]

...I haven't been training since December and on Monday I went back... now I'm reeeaaaally sore. (-_-) I'm supervising a football game tomorrow which I usually ref... but looks like I'll be on the bench. :/

[autobreadticon]

you are definetly worthy of prime's title in your name :)

[TheDirtyDigger]

Sent my nephews to Kung Fu. Age 13 and 14. They've been going for about four weeks.
Figure if they're going to become low ranking Triad soldiers they should at least know the basics.

Seems like a decent school but I don't have the knowledge/experience to judge accurately.

[GoktimusPrime]

Which style?

[TheDirtyDigger]

Here's the link to the school.
http://ziranmenkungfuacademy.street-directory.com.au/

Almost certain it's ba gua. Please forgive my ignorance.

[Kyle]

Head of the school appears to be a grand-student of Wan Lai-Seng 萬籟聲. Wan's own teacher Du Xin-Wu 杜心五 was famous for being the "modern" promoter of their art Ziranmen 自然門 early last century. Wan's forte was Shaolin Liuhe 六合. He did have some knowledge of the 3 sister arts (Xinyi, Bagua, Taiji) like many Northern boxers who were active in the Shanghai/Nanking social circle at the time.

A clip from of Wan (in his 90s) from his DVD:

http://hk.youtube.com/watch?v=bI_6jx6lRnI

[GoktimusPrime]

I usually see "Liuhe" translated as "Six Harmony" and "Baguazhang" is translated as "Eight Trigram Palm" although it is often just called "Baguazhang." I think Liuhe would be pronounced as "Roku-ai" (or possibly "Mutsuai") in Japanese - I know that Baguazhang is "Yakkeshou" and Taijiquan is "Taikyokuken."

Kyle: thanks for the kanji! I'm not familiar with Ziranmen but at least I know what the name means now ("Nature's Gate?" <--not sure what the more conventional translation is). Ziranmen is pronounced as "Shizenmon" in Japanese. :)

[TheDirtyDigger]

So am I correct to assume Ziranmen is the style and ba gua is the class/lesson?

[GoktimusPrime]

no, they're both different styles of internal Northern Kung Fu. I don't know much about Ziranmen, but Bagua is based on moving/walking in circles (a common joke is that people practising Bagua forms look like tops ;p) - they fight from the outside of the circle (circumference) in toward the centre.

Xingyi, Taiji and Liuhe are also different forms of internal Northern Kung Fu. Xingyi is more linear than Bagua - taiji is basically the combative form of tai chi. That site doesn't mention which style of Taiji they teach (e.g.: Yang, Chen, Wu etc) so I can't tell you much more than that. I don't know much about Shaolin Liuhe, my knowledge of Six Harmony is mostly in regard to Liuhe Tanglangquan (Six Harmony Praying Mantis), and even there it's admittedly quite limited - all Northern Praying Mantis is classified as internal, and from what little I've seen of Six Harmony Mantis it's a traditionally "soft" internal mantis form.

Classes/lessons don't have individual names. :p You will have names of styles and the forms (set pattern of movements) in which they practice.

[Kyle]

...taiji is basically the combative form of tai chi...

形意, 八卦, 太極...

"Hsing-I, Pa Kua, Tai Chi" were earlier translations used by some, with certain degrees of Hong Kong/Cantonese influence.

"Xingyi, Bagua, Taiji" are the more modern translations used by most Mandarin speaking Chinese nowadays.

[GoktimusPrime]

You mean Romanisation. :) A translation would be conversion to another language like English, e.g.: "Bagua" (or Pa Kua) translates as "Eight Trigrams."

"Hsing-I," "Pa Kua" et al. are Romanisations based on the Wade-Giles system of Sino-Romanisation (that's writing Chinese words in the letters of the Roman alphabet) whereas "Xingyi, Bagua" etc are based on the Pinyin system of Sino-Romanisation. The Pinyin system is in more common usage amongst most texts but I think the Wade Giles system is older so you see it being used in some older texts, and it's also still commonly used in Taiw--, uh, I mean the Republic of China. :p

I think "Tai Chi" is the Wade Giles way of writing "Taiqi" as opposed to "Taiji" - as in...
Taiqi = 太気 (Taiki in Japanese)
Taiji =　太極 (Taikyoku*)

Here's an application of Bagua; knife defence (in this case, Wolverine's claws)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/knifeattack_bagua.jpg
You can see that the Bagua fighter (Mirage) is fighting from outside of the circle in.

*For any Karate practitioners out there, it's the same Kyoku as in Kyokushin (極真); for any Taekwondo people Taiji is pronounced as "Taegeuk" (although your Taegeuk form is nothing like Taiji - the fact that they're written in the same Kanji is probably the only thing they have in common :p)

[Kyle]

You mean Romanisation. :)

Thanks! "Romanisation" is the term I should have used.

[GoktimusPrime]

Training With Beginners

I haven't been going to my regular school because the venue that they use for Sunday classes has been repeatedly damaged by hail and rain - although I'm tentatively considering changing one of my training days from Sunday to some other day (it would have to be either Tue or Fri... considering changing to Fri). But anyway, in the meantime I've been going to another local place every Monday just to keep up with training and exercise.

I've only been at this school for a few months and I've never graded - I haven't even purchased a uniform and I don't even hold a white belt. :p So for these reasons I'm usually stuck practising with white belts... occasionally higher belts, but not too often. Whenever I train with someone, I'm always keen to exchange information with them... I like to give them tips or pointers if I see the need arising, or sometimes just generally exchange notes (which is more fun with more experienced fighters). Some newbs don't think much of this - I think some of them lack the experience to appreciate some of the advice I'm giving them, others have trouble understanding it because this school is primarily focused on competition cage-fighting, which has a completely different mentality from self-defence fighting which is what I exclusively train for (comp fighting and self defence go together like oil and water :/). Other newbs - i.e.: those who have come to actually learn self defence, are more appreciative of the advice I give them.

One white belt that I trained with last week told me that he really enjoyed training with me and told me that I was a "very good training partner." He explained to me that most other more experienced/senior students simply focus on their own training and improvement without really caring about helping him as a less experienced student. i.e.: they're happy to simply have him play the role of attacker or defender, but don't give him explicit advice on how to improve his techniques. Often they will pwn him without stopping to explain why and how they were able to do it and also how he could counter that pwnage technique.

Whenever I pull a move that pwns my less-experienced partner, I will usually stop and try to explain to them why I was able to do it. For many newbs martial arts applications can seem almost like "magic" because all they see is a flurry of movement, and suddenly they've lost. They don't understand the process by which they were defeated - and even when people explain how they were beaten, they seldomly explain how they could counter that technique. Every technique has a counter-technique (and counter-counters, and counter-counter-counters etc).

Newbs are often led to believe that if they screw up a technique, that all is lost, and I often see them despairing. Like you throw a hit at them, and they might screw up their block and they go, "aw crap," but I try to tell them not to give up hope and show them that there are always other techniques you can fall back on when others fail - i.e.: if Plan A fails execute Plan B, if Plan B fails execute Plan C etc etc. I've found that in doing so, it really builds the beginner's confidence and enthusiasm... and generally they're appreciative of the fact that I'm willing to openly share my knowledge with them.

The culture of secrecy in martial arts, especially in Kung Fu, is really silly in the context of modern day society. In the old days masters were reluctant to reveal all of their knowledge to students because they were afraid that their students may use their techniques to betray them and usurp leadership of the school. As a result, many styles faded into extinction and to this day it's really really hard to find any decent traditional schools of Kung Fu (well, it's really hard to find any decent martial arts schools period). You actually see some martial arts schools where students are told NOT to teach their martial arts to anyone outside of their school... sometimes they're not even allowed to show their techniques outside of their school unless it's an organised public demonstration. IMO that's a load of bollocks - in this day and age where the culture of challenging your teacher to a death match to win ownership of the school is long gone I just don't see the need in maintaining the culture of secrecy. But I digress...

The point I'm making is that whenever you train with a beginner-level student be helpful and share your knowledge with them! Don't be overtly too picky - correct them within the context of their relative skill level. And when correcting them, give a brief explanation as to why what you're showing them is more correct. I don't bother correcting people if they're doing a technique differently from me so long as I don't see any inherent flaws in the technique. By 'flawed' techniques I mean correct them if they're moving in a way that exposes them to danger (e.g.: moving in a way that leaves your nuts open! <---veeerrrrry common mistake I see, especially in schools that do comps). Sometimes I see other people correcting someone on a technique just because it looks different, but otherwise isn't effecting the outcome of the application... what's the point? If the technique works and it isn't exposing the exponent to harm then who cares? (this is especially important when I'm training with people from different styles - which is the case at this school I've been attending. I don't correct my partners on 'stylistic' differences unless they specifically ask me).

Helping newbs is beneficial for everyone. It's obviously beneficial for the newb who would be getting more benefit from training with a more experienced/senior student (instead of just getting blindly pwned without understanding why/how). It's beneficial for the more skilled fighter because you often teach yourself stuff when teaching others (it's good revision for more basic techniques too). And it's beneficial for the teacher because you're making life easier for him/her - especially in larger classes where his/her attention is more divided.

Sparring With Noobs

I sparred today at the aforementioned school, and because I'm new there I sparred with a whitebelt. Sometimes when I spar with low level students I will set a "handicap" usually by placing one or both hands behind my back which means that I only allow myself to fight with one or no hands. It's beneficial for my partner because it gives them an upper hand (and better fighting chance to whup me) and it's beneficial for me because I can work on my core fighting technique (all fighting comes from your footwork where you float like a butterfly and sting like a bee (or at least try to :p)).

Once I sparred with an "extreme noob" (i.e.: he wasn't just inexperienced in martial arts, he was just generally unco) so I not only restricted my hands but I also intentionally distracted myself by singing the tune to Strauss' Blue Danube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnRT4KNImdg&feature=related) (still managed to majorly pwn my opponent which had all the other students laughing :p). Another time I was sparring with someone even worse so I had my opponent tie my hands behind my back and asked him to blindfold me (still pwned him though).

[sifun]

hey gok, have you ever been in a real street fight? HARDCORE!

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd rather not discuss that publicly. As Mr Miyagi taught us, we train to fight so that we may never have to. Learning self defence is a lot like buying insurance or wearing a seat belt... you hope that you'll never need it, but when it happens you're mighty glad that you have it.

When buying insurance you want to get something decent. Fortunately safety equipment and devices like seatbelts, helmets etc comply to a regulated government standard. There is no such standard for martial arts.

If you're interested in training for practical self defence, I would personally recommend training in a traditional style and preferably at a school whose students do NOT compete in matches/tournaments. I'm quite skeptical of this whole "mixed martial arts" business. It promises a lot but I've yet to see any substantial delivery - and in an age of post-submachinegun warfare, I doubt we'll ever see that promise fulfilled.

Competition fighting: Not recommended in a real fight
http://www.paragonmartialarts.co.uk/images/wtf_taekwondo_athens.jpg

Traditional fighting: Battle-hardened and proven in centuries of warfare
http://www.bajimen.com/pictures/photos/baji3.jpg

[GoktimusPrime]

Another discussion about roundhouse punches - what I consider to be the 'right' and 'wrong' way of doing them, or if you like, a more ideal/optimal way of throwing a roundhouse punch.

For those who don't know, a roundhouse punch is a punch which arcs and hits the target (typically your opponent's head) from the side, 'drawing' a semi-circle in the air.

Sounds simple but surprisingly I see a disturbing number of people who do it incorrectly - and I'll explain why.

Now here is what I consider to be a correct roundhouse punch.
http://www.shotowa.com/Sankakuyama%20Karate%20Dictionary_files/image048.jpg
(See Fig.B)

The main thing to take note of is that the base knuckles are turned inward - i.e.: the base knuckles are the ones which will hit the target

There are two advantages in doing this.
Firstly, by rotating the knuckles inward, you are generating additional torque which in turn creates more force in your hit.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/09/Torque_animation.gif
The second advantage I will discuss later.

Now this is what I consider to be the incorrect way of throwing a roundhouse punch:
http://tn3-2.deviantart.com/fs19/300W/i/2007/257/d/1/Roundhouse_Punch_Screenshot_by_Ukent.jpg
(See Fig.A)

Even though this shot was taken from a computer game, believe it or not, but I've seen several instructors actually teach their students to roundhouse punch like this. The main difference here is that the fist is not rotated to turn the base knuckles inward, rather, the punch is impacting with the mid-finger knuckles. I've heard a few instructors describe it as "holding a coffee mug" when teaching this punch.

IMO there are two disadvantages of throwing a roundhouse punch like this. Firstly, because there's less rotation, there is naturally less torsion.

Here's what the two roundhouse punches look side by side:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/roundhousepunch_figab.jpg

Now onto the second advantage/disadvantage with these two different methods of roundhouse punching.

The roundhouse punch in Fig.B is exposing the 'outside' of the forearm/wrist toward the opponent whereas the roundhouse punch in Fig.A is exposing the 'inside' of the forearm/wrist toward the opponent.

The 'inside' of your wrist houses the flexor tendons which are important for operating your hand and fingers.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/images/446/handatlas.gif

By exposing the inside of your wrist toward an opponent you are putting those tendons in danger - they can be hit or cut by a blade or even knuckles (Leopard Paw is especially used for cutting)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/leopardpaw.jpg
The inside of your wrist is quite soft - feel for yourself. And due to the relative lack of muscle around that area, it's not a part of the body that you can substantially condition to become more resistant to hits (i.e.: it's a part of your body that you can't really toughen up - it will always be soft). These are the same tendons that you use to write and type with and it's the same tendon that becomes sore if you have writer's cramp or RSI.

http://www.cascadewellnessclinic.com/GRAPHICS/4SPORTGX/RSI-CROS.GIF

The 'outside' of the wrist on the other hand is substantially harder and tougher, and it can be conditioned/toughened up to be more resistant. Even if you are cut with a blade, it is far less crucial than being cut on the inside.

If you are cut on the inside and the flexor tendons are severed, then your hand will become basically useless - you won't be able to grab or form a fist. Getting cut on the outside will still hurt, but a superficial cut won't incapacitate your hand.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/roundhousepunch_figcd.jpg

Fig.C illustrates how the roundhouse punch from Fig.A exposes the flexor tendons to a blade
Fig.D illustrates how the roundhouse punch from Fig.B doesn't expose the flexor tendons to a blade

Sure, ideally you would prefer not to be cut at all - but if you're up against an opponent with a knife, the odds are against you and there's a real chance that you will be cut. But if you're going to get cut, you would rather get cut in a way that doesn't compromise your fighting form - i.e.: you want to be able to continue fighting even after receiving a cut. That's as best as I can describe it without going into details about how to receive a cut, which is something that is beyond the scope of what I'm discussing atm.

[Kyle]

Oh my gosh there're two Goks!!! One is already too many~ :D

(Well at least it looks like one will kill the other... :p )

[GoktimusPrime]

The Anatomy Of Fear and How It Relates To Survival Skills Training (http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/anatomy.htm)

This is an excellent well-researched paper analysing the nature of fear in combat and how to deal with it. A must-read.

[Kyle]

What styles do your currently train in now?

[GoktimusPrime]

7-Star Northern Praying Mantis. You?

[Kyle]

Mainly Liuhebafa (very different from the Sydney ones), with the most basic exercises from Lama, Xingyi and Bagua as supplements. My teacher used to train in 7-Star Mantis for years, so I also had some Mantis training.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm not that familiar with Six-Harmony Bafa in Sydney anyway so I wouldn't know the difference - I've seen a tiny bit of Six-Harmony Mantis, but I'm too ignorant of either style to know if there's any similarity between those styles. :p

I've had a little bit of Jiangrongqiao Bagua (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn1XMhK1z6U) training. Can you show me any decent videos of Liuhebafa?

I find it hard to find decent videos on Seven Star Mantis... the late Brendan Lai (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg) was pretty good and the video there shows him demonstrating some good techniques... but I don't like the style of his applications demonstrations. He has this annoying habit of having his assistant attacking him really slowly and leaving himself out there for Lai to counter really quickly, which is cheating. I can understand demonstrating techniques in slow-motion, but if so then the entire technique should be at the same pace - both the attack and the counter. If he wants to demonstrate the technique at full speed then the assistant should be attacking him at full speed. Too many times that dude in the red is essentially just a mobile dummy for Lai rather than simulating an actual attacker. His techniques are good though... I just think that they could've been better demonstrated (and I don't know what's up with the shouting).

[GoktimusPrime]

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv9YQGWb0mY) is a pretty good video of Seven Star Mantis.

I found this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH-kc8AN_iw) on Liuhebafa - do you think it's any good? I can see some similarities to Bagua and Taichi in this form (e.g.: cloud carrying etc). :)

[GoktimusPrime]

You know what's even better than learning from your mistakes? Learning from other people's mistakes! Especially in martial arts where making massive stuff-ups in a fight can be very painful if not deadly...

Watch the first bit of this sparring video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbEGgZ86Ci0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emptyflower.net%2Fforums%2Fi ndex.php%3Fshowtopic%3D6846&feature=player_embedded) (the black and white footage). Their technique is just downright awful and their sparring just reeks of absolute inattentiveness. It's almost like... this is a what fighting style would look like if it were based on ADHD. (-_-)

How many mistakes can you spot?

I've noted...
+ At 00:15-00:18 the attacker lands a shin kick with far too much ease. The defender is clearly not paying attention to what's happening and doesn't even look like he really wants to be there.
+ The defender's head comes in with his attack and doesn't provide cover for the attacker's hands. Even most noobs know to keep their heads back and cover the attacker's hands. (-_-)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/facepalm.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/facepalm_movieprime.jpg

[GoktimusPrime]

From another thread:


The majority of stabbings these days occur from drunking Caucasian after a night of drinking, and the majority of them take up kick boxing classes.
Pppftt, amateurs. The good knife fighter is the one who casually strolls past you then suddenly turns and stabs you in the back multiple times. You can learn more about realistic knife defence by watching this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-uH93EQzKs ) - the guy there is an accomplished practitioner of several styles of martial arts (including Yin Baguazhang, Xingyi, Taijiquan etc.) and also grew up in rough predominantly black ghettoes in the U.S. His home page is here (http://www.blacktaoist.com/default.asp).

I don't know why, but in my experience the majority of people I've come across who train in Thai kickboxing are thugs. I've only met three practitioners of Thai kickboxing who aren't thugs - one of whom only did it for a year before he quit, and another who actually practises Muay Boran, which is the original traditional Thai martial art which Muay Thai evolved from. Muay Thai is the sport whereas Muay Boran is the martial art - their form is far more like other traditional martial arts and quite different from MT/Thai Kickboxing. I'm not saying that all practitioners of MT/kickboxing are thugs - this is just from my own personal experience.

[GoktimusPrime]

Autocon I'll teach you some kung fu... :D
I won't pretend to know much about liuhebafa, but I believe that it's classified as an internal martial art. The internal arts are (typically) more passive and defensive, with a greater focus on awareness and a relatively more relaxed use of biomechanics instead of using brute strength.

Internal styles will teach you to absorb or redirect the force of an attack, which legally puts you in a better position than using say a bone-shattering block from an external style.

Compare:
+ External: Karate block (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7ApyuBNno4) "..he's clubbing down on my bone. Yeah I can feel that on my nerves." - it's simple and effective, but also very painful. You could potentially injure your attacker with this block who could in turn try to use this injury as "evidence" that you were assaulting him and not vice versa (it would be your word against his unless you have an independent third party witness).
+ Internal: Bajiquan application (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78BqjDSjl1U) - in 0:39-1:10 of this video you'll notice that the defender is simply parrying the punch to the face followed by moving in and shoving the attacker away. There's no damaging block or even hitting the opponent back; simply a nice shove to get your attacker to fuck off. The rest of this video shows an actual counterattack - which is not what I would recommend for Autocon at this stage, but even then you can see that the punch works more on using biomechanical force rather than brute strength.

I'm sure Kyle will be able to explain all of this better at the Nexus Fair. It's better to just see this stuff for yourself rather than reading about it. Also have a talk to 1orion2many. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I share MV75's sentiments. I would recommend seeking more professional advice (e.g. LawAccess).


That's nice Goktimus. In my experience, "martial arts" only tend to work in a controlled "gym" environment against other well timed "martial arts".
Surviving traditional martial arts worked in battlefields for centuries before the advent of the submachine gun. I say surviving because it was like natural selection - if your martial art didn't work, you would be horribly killed in battle. A lot of martial arts schools don't teach MAs properly, but that doesn't mean that the styles themselves are inherently flawed. e.g.: just because someone doesn't know how to do maths or apply it doesn't mean maths doesn't work.


Take up mma or boxing instead.
I personally remain skeptical of modern fighting sports like MMA and modern boxing, but that's just my personal opinion. At the end of the day the right martial art for you is the one that teaches you to fight effectively (and hopefully legally). If MMA and boxing works for you, then that's great.

Things to keep in mind about self defence (regardless of what style you prefer):
+ There's no such thing as rules or honour in a real fight.
+ ALWAYS assume that your opponent is stronger, faster and better than you are. Also assume that they're probably armed too.
+ Be prepared to make mistakes. Remember that you will be scared shitless in a fight and you will fuck up, and that's fine as long as you leave a margin of error to compensate for your mistakes.
+ Be prepared to fight in unfavourable conditions. You may not be fighting on a smooth, flat and dry surface. You may be outnumbered. You may be feeling sick or tired. Most attacks are surprise attacks (nobody's gonna announce themselves and bow at you before a fight!) - be prepared to counter attacks that you _won't_ see coming.
+ Be aware of the legal implications of self defence. You are only permitted to use reasonable force in self defence, using excessive force can get you into trouble -- hence my recommendation for internal styles as they don't focus so much on using physical force.

No matter what style you do your training should reflect all this (and more).

P.S.: if you're looking for a combat art that's legally permitted in sport fights, then I'd recommend Brazilian Jujutsu (often mispelt as Jiujitsu). Jujutsu is related to Taijutsu, which was the unarmed combat used by Samurai. Jujutsu is also classified as an internal martial art as it focuses on the use of biomechanics instead of raw strength (i.e.: it specialises in grappling, wrestling and submissions rather than striking)

[kup]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

[GoktimusPrime]

I did try to organise something like that years ago; where we could discuss and demonstrate/practice techniques in safety. Trained martial artists know how to use their techniques with safety (cos that's how we practice), and I also have various kinds of equipment like pads, shields, armour etc. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye and sues you for public liability. :) But yeah, you can get a lot more out of talking about martial arts IRL within one minute than you could achieve in 800 words of text online (a single move tells a thousand words).

Unfortunately the meet never took off due to lack of interest. :( The only other Sydney based OTCA member that I regularly talk to about martial arts nowadays is Rampage. Jimreborn has martial arts training, but he's not an active member these days. I don't know of any other martial arts enthusiasts among our active Sydney members, and any other active members who are MA enthusiasts that I know of are outside NSW and thus too far away to organise such a meet! :p Rampage and I will inevitably talk about martial arts at some stage whenever we see each other at TF meets. :)

[Tabias Prime]

Can would bring my Zangetsu but i think i could get in the shit with the cops..I did do a bit of Kung-fu when i was younger..

[MV75]

+ There's no such thing as rules or honour in a real fight.

That's largely why I commented upon "controlled environments". ;)

As for me, Taekwondo is what I did. It's pretty aggressive and is designed to literally cripple the opponent.

But when I did it, it was mostly a "for fun" type of thing which is pretty much what most martial arts classes these days are for.

Lots of "real world" fights are close up and make sure you hit them harder types of affairs. Street fighting, as that's all drunken / robbers / bullies really know.

I'd also imagine ancient battles were more of a "cut their guts open first" type of affair in the field as well. If you lost your sword, then tackle them and pummel their faces, hit them with rocks and other brutal types of things. You wouldn't be waiting in a defense stance for them to throw a punch and you to counter it, then let them have their turn, etc like you would do in a public showing. ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Lots of "real world" fights are close up and make sure you hit them harder types of affairs. Street fighting, as that's all drunken / robbers / bullies really know.
Yeah but what I was talking about is defending yourself against thugs without becoming a thug. And this is kinda where the difference lies between internal and external martial arts. Now _generally_ speaking external styles are like fight fire with fire. They meet force with force. Internal styles on the other hand neutralise and/or redirect force (back at the attacker). There are various different levels of range - long, medium and close.


I'd also imagine ancient battles were more of a "cut their guts open first" type of affair in the field as well. If you lost your sword, then tackle them and pummel their faces, hit them with rocks and other brutal types of things. You wouldn't be waiting in a defense stance for them to throw a punch and you to counter it, then let them have their turn, etc like you would do in a public showing.
Depends on the context of the fight situation. Sometimes you need to go on the offensive, but other times you need to be defensive. It's like other things that require strategy (e.g.: sports, chess etc.) Some styles like Aikido are _completely_ defensive. They have to wait for the attacker to throw the first punch because they have no attacks. It doesn't mean that they'll let the attacker _land_ that punch, but they'll let them throw it! :) Jujutsu works in the same way as does many other passively defensive styles.

Some other styles/forms intentionally bait their opponent too. i.e.: they let them throw the first punch or kick because, as Admiral Ackbar would say, "It's a trap!" As Beast Wars Megatron once said, "Deception is the better part of valour." ;)

[SGB]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!
LOL!!! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Can would bring my Zangetsu but i think i could get in the shit with the cops..
That's why I like the idea "defend yourself from thugs without becoming a thug." :) Legally we are permitted to use reasonable force in self-defence. It's when you use unreasonably excessive force that you may find yourself in trouble with the law.

It's also because of this that I have a personal preference for the internal martial arts, due to their more passively defensive nature.

Here's an example with a person demonstrating traditional Aikido:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM
You'll notice that at no point does the defender actually strike his attackers. There are no punches, kicks, elbows, knees, headbutts, biting etc.; nothing offensive, all defensive. What may appear as strikes to some people are actually pre-emptive blocks. He's not hitting his attackers, but at times he will stick his hand out to obstruct them or to enforce them to fall down - and the only reason why the attackers fall down so hard is because the defender is using his attacker's force against them. The defender is using very little of his own power. The entire essence is about subduing and restraining your attacker, not hitting them.

Tai Chi is another example of a passively defensive martial art. Their push hands exercise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hec0dQGIL84) is which allows them to practice the principles of redirecting an attacker's force against them.

There are plenty of other passively defensive internal styles and I'd be here forever if I wanted to discuss them all, but I hope that these brief examples give an idea of how the basic concept of passively defensive fighting works. :)

----------------
Disclaimer: Classification in martial arts, just like classification in many other areas, is highly arbitrary and subjective. In reality all martial arts contain both internal and external elements. It is possible for external martial artists to be passively defensive too (just as it's possible for an internal martial artist to be aggressively offensive). It's really up to how the individual chooses to apply his/her training and techniques.

[kup]

The real way to learn to fight is if you fight somebody who you know is willing to do you harm. Sparing in 'Controlled' environments are too artificial and choreographed to be proper training.

In a real life fight you will not know if your attacker is going to kick, punch, bite or throw himself at you. Although fighting technique does help immensely, you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance.

You can only learn that through real full contact fighting rather than the typical dojo 'I stand 1m apart and pretend to hit you with this move and you pretend defending a second after I do it' controlled environment.

I remember when I was a kid, I decided to do Karate for a few weeks - Boy that was a waste of time and money! All the moves were super artificially choreographed into awkward 'if I move I will trip over my leg' stances with lots of repetitive moves and stances that even as a 12 year old I could see how I could counter them through unorthodox thinking.

When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.

When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.

[GoktimusPrime]

I fundamentally agree with what you're saying, but at the same time martial arts instructors have a legal duty of care over their students (the same as school teachers). They cannot allow their students to get hurt or sustain injury during the course of training, and must take measures to prevent injury and deal with injury if it occurs.

If an instructor tells two students to free spar and if a student sustains serious injury that requires costly medical attention (e.g. physiotherapy or surgery etc.) then they can make a claim against the martial arts school/instructor. If the instructor took reasonable measures to ensure student safety (e.g.: elicited them to wear protective gear, used mats to fall on etc.), then his/her insurance will cover the cost of the claim. However if it turns out that the instructor did not take reasonable means to ensure student safety, then the insurance company will not cover the cost of the claim. It works the same as other forms of insurance like car insurance. Instructor makes a claim, insurance company investigates claims and either provides or denies cover depending on the findings of their investigation. So instructors are often torn between trying to provide a realistic fight environment, while at the same time trying to keep their students safe from harm.

And yes, I know there are lots of martial arts instructors who DON'T do enough (or anything at all) to ensure student safety, and this is why the cost of insurance premiums for martial arts teachers is always on the rise. :( (costs which are often passed onto students via costly lesson or membership fees)


you need to know how to implement it almost by instinct rather than choreography (as most dojos teach it) and be able to change and adapt your move based on the split second circumstance
Absolutely right. You should be able to implement your techniques reflexively as if it were second nature -- as you said, instinctively. Qui Gon Jinn described it well in Star Wars Episode I "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." If you need to _think_ about how to counter an attack, then you're going to lose the fight. External martial arts are well known for their explosive ferocity, which is a trademark that distinguishes them from internal styles. And I find it's a common weakness with people who practice internal styles like Tai Chi -- while I really like the internal concepts of passive defence, it's also essential to have an element of explosive ferocity. You need to be like a loaded mousetrap; when someone attacks you you just SNAP with a defence/counter.

Perhaps the most crucial reason why your techniques must be instinctual is because you will be fighting under extreme fear in a real fight. One good way to train for this is to use exercises where you are attacked by surprise. This can be done by having the defender close his/her eyes while the attacker sets themselves up in a completely random position with a punch, kick, elbow, knee, headbutt etc. only a few centimetres from their body. As soon as the defender opens their eyes they MUST counter that attack immediately. You can make it harder by asking the attacker to actually _continue_ their attack as soon as they see the defender open his/her eyes. e.g.: you hold a punch in front of their face and as soon as they open their eyes you move your fist forward and make light contact with their face. It doesn't hurt but it lets them know that they've been hit. The aim of the game becomes to react within a fraction of a second and not get touched. Of course there are many other methods of simulating fear in training, this is just one example. :)

This article (http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html) really describes well how fear works in a fight. One good point the article brings up is the importance of controlled breathing in a fight, which is why so many traditional martial arts have controlled breathing exercises (e.g. controlled breathing during practice of forms/patterns, meditation etc.). Controlled breathing is crucial even in other sports like swimming; you don't want your cells starved of oxygen midway in a fight.


When it came to sparing, it was basically how I described it above 'I hit the air in front of you and then you hit the air in front of me' turn based training. I found it utterly ridiculous as there was no hope in hell that the school's method of teaching was going to work in a real life fight since there is no training on proper adaptive fighting and since the same style of training continued to higher belts, it became utterly pointless.
Again, you can't have students actually hitting each other for legal reasons. But you can do other things like have light contact or elicit students to wear protective gear so you can hit harder while minimising the chances of hurting them.

Schools that teach European martial arts like Broadsword and Spanish Rapier Brawling always enforce their students to be covered head to toe in protective gear (and on top of that they wear armour like gauntlets, breastplates, chainmail etc.), even though they train with swords made from paper (like _extremely_ dense paper which has the same mass as a metal sword; believe me, they f***ing hurt!) or rotand and not live blades.


When it dawned on me how ridiculous the whole thing was during a sparing session, I decided to playfully kick 'my opponent' in the ass while he was waiting for a pretend punch. I found it hilarious but the other kid got really upset and almost cried although the kick wasn't hard enough to hurt him. He kept shouting 'Watch the contact! Watch the contact!' and then I knew I should probably quit since this show wasn't as advertised.
Mmm... yeah. Another problem that some schools have is conditioning students to take hits. In a real fight you're going to be hit and it's something you have to be prepared for. There are conditioning exercises that can harden your body up. e.g.: Karate practitioners often slam their arms and legs against each other, or lightly punch themselves in the guts as they do push-ups. Practitioners of martial arts that involve lots of falling like Jujutsu, Aikido etc. are naturally hardened from all the times they keep falling down on mats. It's the same concept as rugby players who have really good endurance because they get tackled a lot.

[Cmdr Prime]

Goktimus Prime may I ask what belt are you?

AS for myself I am a 2nd Dan Black Belt

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't have a belt. Not all martial arts schools use the coloured belt grading system. :)

The coloured belt grading system's never been a traditional part of martial arts. It's something that was created when Judo decided to become a federated sport around the turn of the 20th Century; and even then there were only 3 belts (white, brown, black - most dojos in Japan only use 3 belts). The other colours were added in later as martial arts became more commercialised.

I think there are some advantages and disadvantages to using belt grades; but they're not an utterly essential part of martial arts practice. A much more important question over "What grade are you?" is "Can you fight?" -- if your answer is "yes," then you're doing well. :)

I find having a black belt is like having a drivers licence. In theory it should mean that you're a competent, but in reality it all depends on the individual. (^_^)

[Rampage]

Let's start an OTCA fight meet in which we all get together somewhere and have one on one fights to proof which one of us has the more effective fighting style. Afterwards we can get together in the Emergency Room and chat about Transformers!

I choose to fight kuzzy in the first round he's as tall as me sounds fair?.... :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: I hate it when martial arts schools which teach styles that are _clearly_ not intended for fighting and don't point this out to their students, or worse, actually claim that they're teaching self defence. :(

I recently spoke to two guys who'd practised Modern Wushu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wushu_%28sport%29), which is an exhibition sport derived from traditional Wushu (Kung Fu) - but as such, is no longer a fighting form. It's commonly used in Kung Fu movies and looks all pretty and spectacular... quite entertaining, but it's not fighting. Yet neither of these kids were told that what they'd learnt isn't applicable for self defence, thus giving them false confidence. This can be dangerous cos they could be walking around thinking that their acrobatic and gymnastic stylised moves could save them against someone wanting to beat the snot out of them, and if that ever happened they'd be in for a rude shock. :(

One of my university lecturers used to practice Modern Wushu in China and he said that it was great for fitness and he loves the sport, but he also said that if anyone could actually apply it in a fight he'd eat his hat. ;)

[sifun]

what do you use to bridge the gap when you need to attack?

[GoktimusPrime]

what do you use to bridge the gap when you need to attack?
"Sticking" works well. :)

Other styles/schools may have different names for it which I'm not familiar with, but we call it sticking. It's basically attaching part of your body (e.g.: forearm) onto their body and then "sticking" onto them. Tai Chi's Push Hands (Tui Shou) is a good exercise that trains you to continue sticking onto your opponent while they're moving (e.g.: trying to "unstick" themselves from you) and then leading to defeating them (typically by penetrating their centre of mass/gravity).

While the exercise is quite good, a mistake that a lot of Tai Chi practitioners make is that they begin the sticking exercise with their bodies _already_ in contact, and not starting at a distance. This of course doesn't teach you to bridge gaps. :( But the concept of the Push Hands exercise is still sound - you just have to remember to use it to bridge the gap first by starting at a distance and not already in-contact. "Seeking" or "latching" should be the initial stages of sticking.

But I guess it's because a lot of people do Tai Chi as a form of exercise and don't really care about its fight apps.

Push Hands video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyq9FljlG8

[Bartrim]

I choose to fight kuzzy in the first round he's as tall as me sounds fair?.... :p

$50on Kuzzy

[GoktimusPrime]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt? My first thought is, "So?"

As I said in post #54, the coloured belt grading system:
+ Is not used in all martial arts
+ Is not even a traditional element of Japanese or Korean martial arts and was something created when Judo became a sport.

Furthermore, black belt means that you are a beginner. Yup. The other colours are all preliminary levels leading up to the beginner level. After you get your black belt you are promoted to a dan or kyu. The words dan (段) and kyu (級) mean "level" or "grade." So a 1st Dan Black Belt is someone who is Level 1, 2nd Dan is Level 2 and so on. A pre-dan black belt is like level 0, and the belt before black (typically brown belt in Japan) is like Level -1.

In my experience I've seen a wide range of abilities from black belts. Some are really good and others are so bad that you question whether or not they deserve to wear a black belt. So really... holding a black belt alone, in my observation, doesn't automatically make you a good fighter. I've come across people who can fight really well despite having NO training in martial arts or boxing, as well as people who hold black belts (or have had an equivalent level of training) and are appallingly awful fighters.

This goes back to what I was saying before in post #54 -- belt colours, grades and ranks meaning nothing to me. The basic question remains: "Can you fight?" How you answer this question means a lot more to me than the colour of a piece of cloth wrapped around your waist.

Thank you.

[Lint]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt? My first thought is, "So?"


What do you guys think when you hear that someone doesn't have a black belt? My first thought is, "Whew!"

Because that means they probably haven't spent a few years or more actively taking martial arts classes building strength, fitness, technique and confidence. It also means they probably didn't have to sit an exam where their abilities were tested to a high level covering strength, form, spirit, weapon technique, resilience against multiple rounds of sparring and discipline.

Sure theres always the possibility that a black belt is a complete pussy but the fact that they are 'just a beginner' doesn't make me any more complacent.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sure. We should always assume that our opponent is superior to us in every way, and train to fighting against superior opponents (I don't see the value in training to fight against someone who is equal or inferior to yourself - the real challenge/skill is defending yourself against a superior foe).

But at the same time I'm saying that just because someone has a black belt doesn't necessarily mean they're really good. Likewise just because someone has a white belt, or perhaps doesn't have ANY martial arts or boxing experience/training, doesn't necessarily mean they're bad either! I once heard a story from a guy who was a black belt, I think he was 1st degree iirc. He considered himself quite good and was thinking about becoming an instructor at his school. His friend had just started learning martial arts at a different school/style; he'd only been learning for a few months. They decided to have a friendly spar. The novice defeated the black belt decisively in three moves. The black belt couldn't believe what had happened to him and thought it was just beginner's luck, so they tried again. The novice defeated the black belt in two moves. They tried again and the fight was finished in one move to the novice's favour.

Even the novice had no idea how he had managed to defeat the black belt so easily, as his understanding of martial arts at the time was very minimal. It was simply because the novice was a better fighter (in this particular case because he had a better teacher - but obviously you have to be a good student too).

If a person simply says, "I'm a black belt," then I'm not immediately impressed. If they then describe or demonstrate their techniques and show me that they actually have decent fighting skills, then I'm impressed! I would be equally impressed if it came from a white belt or a person with no belt at all. :)

[liegeprime]

bah just shoot em.:mad::mad:

[GoktimusPrime]

bah just shoot em.
Self Defence Against Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w) :D

[bruticus]

What do you guys think when you hear that someone has a black belt?

err. whats the big deal anyways?
i have a couple black belts at home...
in fact, i wear one everyday...you know the leather ones that keeps your pants up?? :p

[klystron]

Very interesting thread, Gok. Enjoyed all the reading, vids, and links. Especially the posts with your Spidey, GG, Wolverine & Mirage assistants (Sempai). :)
I have been training in Karate for a couple of years now, and was quite surprised to read your mentions about schools that segregate students of different grade levels when sparring. Ours does not. I remember sparring brown and black belts before I even had a uniform. Nowadays I am a brown belt and often spar against lower grades. I am happy to "ease off" a bit and work with them on techniques (etc) during our rounds, just as done to me when I started. Sparring against the yellows/orange/greens serves to remind me how far I have come. The lower belts often expend much energy in brute attacks which I can easily block and counter. Often at the end of a round they are breathing heavy and exhausted, where as I am not. I was once like them but since I have learnt to relax in my karate and control my breathing. Mind you, the black belts in my class still give me a good working over.
I was also interested in the lack of contact aspects. Whilst I agree with you that nowadays contact and any resulting injury is a potential can of proverbial worms, some contact is like an unwritten requirement for progressing thru the grades. When I graded to blue, I remember the black belts telling me that blue is when learn to take hits. I feel that this is an essential part of any (non demonstration) martial art. Its like playing football -- you might be the best winger the world has ever seen, but you're not worth shit if you cant get tackled without ending up broken. I have seen broken noses and ribs at our higher belt gradings. I have seen people throw-up from exhaustion and hits to the gut during gradings. Its all part of karate as far as I am concerned. Sparring in class is necessary to prepare for sparring at gradings. It needs to be free, and there needs to be some amount of (controlled) contact.

The above comments are not the only, nor most, important aspects of mine, or any other form of karate. They are just 2 dumb rambles that I wanted to contribute.

[bruticus]

Self Defence Against Fruit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w) :D
this is how you really defend yourself against a watermelon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hr1LGLbOmA&feature=related) (1 minute 16 sec in the clip) :p

i wonder if klystron does this kind of karate?

[GoktimusPrime]

klystron: I know where you're coming from, but keep in mind that martial arts instructors have a legal Duty of Care over their students, just like school teachers. Sparring isn't a traditional part of martial arts training - and while I can see the merit of free sparring, the fact is that traditional martial arts have survived for centuries without the need for it... and that was back during the age where martial arts mattered a lot more than they do now (i.e.: before the invention of modern-day firearms where people would use martial arts in warfare, whereas today it's only used for civil self-defence and sport/entertainment).

Also people do have lives outside of martial arts. They need to go to school or work the next day; something that can be greatly inconvenienced if they become seriously injured during training. People like Buddhist Monks (e.g. Shaolin) were able to beat the snot out of each other during training because they had no lives. They lived in secluded temples with vows of poverty and chastity. If you had to take a day off it just meant you got a break from meditating and praying all day. More importantly, monks were highly skilled healers too, so usually if you got grievously hurt your fellow monks would spend the following day(s) healing you. You didn't need to take time off school or work... or toy hunting... ;) :p

There are other ways to condition the body to take hits, such as hitting your own body or against a partner's. Start gently/lightly then gradually increase the strength of the hits as your tolerance improves. I've seen some Karate practitioners repeatedly punch themselves lightly in the guts as they do sit ups. I've also seen several Karate and Kung Fu practitioners practice limb knocking. Some people use those wooden dummies (often called Wing Chun dummies). I've seen some people practicing jabbing their fingers at sandbags. I also always punch bare knuckle and I have focus pads which are designed to sting your knuckles (the contact area is harder than regular pads - some actually have a small piece of wood behind the padding (mine's just really dense padding)). Throwing/grappling practice is good for building up endurance by virtue of being thrown around all the time (similar to your rugby tackle analogy) -- that's why a lot of good practitioners of throwing arts like Jujutsu and Aikido have pretty solid endurance.

Fear training is also really difficult because you know you're in a safe environment. Sparring introduces a slight element of fear because everything's random, but ultimately you still know you're safe. It's a difficult dilemma for instructors who want to teach their students to fight under stress and fear, but of course they have to keep their students safe. See my previous posts about fear simulation training, which I consider to be safe but still induce that "Holy F***!" element of being attacked by surprise - which is something regular sparring doesn't do. Unless you introduce fear element training into sparring.

Having said all that it is possible to have safe sparring. But you'd have to ensure that participants are fully armoured, and IMO I would recommend as a minimum:
+ headguard (although I find faceguards to obstruct my vision, so I detach them - also because I wear glasses)
+ chest/body guard
+ groin guard
+ shin pads

And these I consider optional, but not absolutely essential:
+ mouth guards
+ neck guard

And of course the sparring match must be actively supervised by the instructor. Ultimately the instructor/school is legally liable for student welfare/safety. If a serious injury occurs then the student can make a claim against to school. This is why instructors have insurance (paid through membership and class fees), which will cover the cost of the claim if it can be demonstrated that the instructor was not derilict of his/her Duty of Care. If there is no negligence, then the insurer will cover the cost of the claim, but if there is negligence then it isn't covered, but the cost of insurance premiums will go up (similar to why insurance for under 25yo drivers is more expensive) - which effects us all because cost of membership and lessons increase. Just look at how much you were paying for lessons when you started martial arts compared to now - have you noticed an increase? (it can also depend on the school - some larger schools are able to absorb the cost whereas smaller ones have to pass it onto students)

Believe it or not, but I frequently come across martial arts schools which allow students to free spar without any protection. I knew of one guy who was sparring without protection and he got kicked in the groin so hard that his left testicle ascended into his abdomen, and he had to be taken to hospital where the doctor had to re-descend it! His girlfriend laughed and told him, "Now you know what it feels like to have ovaries!" The instructor wasn't even there when it happened. If that student had decided to make a claim, he would probably succeed. But instead he did was most students do when this sort of thing happens... he left the school.

bruticus: Meh, I'm personally not impressed by people breaking stuff. As Mr. Miyagi once said when Daniel-san asked him if he could break stuff, "Don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

I'm also not a great believer of the leaping/flying kick. It looks fancy but is quite impractical for most fight situations (I heard that the odds of you actually successfully pulling off a leaping kick in a real fight against a competent opponent is about the same as being hit by lightning or winning lotto -- i.e.: pretty darn low!). One hilarious justification I hear for the leap kick is that it was used for dismounting riders! Yeah right... you have the mass of a grown man charging at you with the acceleration and velocity of a horse at full gallop, and you jump at him with your leg extended?! Riiiiiight. (Shaolin monks would actually dismount riders by attacking the horse (you don't even need to hit them hard, horses are easily startled/frightened when attacked directly and will throw their riders off their backs when they panic)).

Anyone who's cut a watermelon would know that they're pretty _easy_ fruit to break (once you pierce the outer shell it pretty much crumbles). I'd be more impressed if I saw someone shatter a coconut with their head. ;)

But I once spoke to a Kyokushin Karate practitioner who said that the stuff-breaking exercises have nothing to do with practical techniques or application, but all to do with building confidence. He said that the first time he broke a piece of wood he felt that he could do anything and that it was a massive boost to his self-esteem. :) They have reusable breaking boards now which is much more environmentally friendly.

Just out of interest klystron, what style of Karate do you practice?

[autobreadticon]

man i miss playing Double Dragon two player on super nintendo..

[GoktimusPrime]

The electronic gaming thread is here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=6214).

[klystron]

Our free sparring is supervised and we are constantly reminded that there should little to no contact. However contact happens, especially between higher belts. We also wear shin pads, mitts, groin guards (not me though), and mouth guards. I know first hand about getting hurt during training. I have limped around at work the following day and would much rather have spent it at home in quite meditation. Or mucking about with TFs.

The fear training aspect is indeed much harder to train for. And I must admit we dont really cover much of that. Although as a yellow belt its pretty scary to spar against black belts! :D
I wonder if I might get our sensei to incorporate some of your ideas on fear training.

I have done a little board breaking work, with the re-usable boards and tiles. Its not real practical but it really does make you feel good. It makes you aware of certain aspects - are you focusing your power the way you should; are you using your hips to generate that power. I also like the feel of your fist actually hitting something hard. Again, if you're not doing things right, these exercises will let you know - like striking without straight wrist, etc.
Outside of that, its pretty much just a demo thing to impress on lookers and non-martial artists. Still fun though.

Never been attacked by a watermelon though...

Gok -- PM'ed.

[GoktimusPrime]

It makes you aware of certain aspects - are you focusing your power the way you should; are you using your hips to generate that power. I also like the feel of your fist actually hitting something hard. Again, if you're not doing things right, these exercises will let you know - like striking without straight wrist, etc.
Well actually, your entire body should be generating the power for the strike. It's what Chinese martial arts refer to as energy transferring between "Earth" (beneath your feet) and "Heaven" (the point of contact).

Now I wanna go watch Masterforce! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Agreed. Hapkido is definitely more practical as it is a practice that teaches the individual to use the energies of their attacker rather than relying on flashy kicks and punches.
IMO "flashy" moves are useless in a real fight. They're widely used in sport and performance martial arts because those martial arts have been modified for use other than combat.

That's why I like the dirty and messy fight choreography in the Transformers live action films - it's what a _real_ fight looks like. Just chaos happening all over the place. The "art" in being a martial artist is being able to ride along with that chaos. Toy Story actually has one of the best quotes that describes martial arts: it's not flying, it's falling with style. :)


The best way of describing Hapkido to someone that doesn't know the style is to compare it to Taekwondo. Taekwondo is mostly about the big 'circle' movements and kicks whereas Hapkido is more about smaller circles and redirecting your oppponents energies e.g. grapples, holds, breaks etc.
I disagree with the statement about Taekwondo's circular nature. I think Taekwondo is a very linear style. Even if you look at their reverse spin kick, the kick itself doesn't spin. You turn your body 180 degrees then the leg kicks up in a linear movement. The body itself turns, but the kick itself doesn't. If you look at Taekwondo's Taeguk Poomsae, there's virtually bugger all circular movement.

This is all rather ironic considering the history of Taekwondo's creation. Much like how Frantzis argues that Aikijutsu was derived from Baguazhang, but Ueshiba would never have admitted this as it would have been extremely politically incorrect at the time, Taekwondo is essentially derived from Shotokan Karate. TKD's founder Choi Honghi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_Hi) lived in Japan for some time where he learnt Shotokan Karate from Funakoshi Gichin himself. At the end of WWII Korea underwent a period of intense anti-Japanese sentimentality after having been forced to be a Japanese colony for 30 years. Thus it was not PC for Koreans to be seen openly embracing anything Japanese. So in order for Karate instructors like Choi to stay in business, he had to redesign and remarket his martial art. He modified his Karate and renamed it "Taekwondo" to make it look and sound more Korean. Now the real irony is that in Taekwondo's modification of Japanese Shotokan Karate, they've actually played DOWN Karate's original Chinese elements, and amplified its Japanese elements!

Chinese Kung Fu is quite circular and fluid in nature. Okinawan Karate is also quite circular. Japanese Karate became less circular and more linear. Taekwondo is even less circular and more linear! There are claims that Taekwondo is merged with traditional Korean martial arts, but I don't see it. If you look at Taekkyeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon) (which today is primarily a performance art), its movements are circular. A lot of Taekwondo practitioners claim that Taekwondo evolved from traditional Korean martial arts, but there's insufficient evidence to support this theory. All the evidence I've seen indicates that it was derived from Japanese Karate. Arguments against Taekwondo's Japanese origins seem more based on Korean national sentimentality rather than on substantial evidence.

One of the most detailed texts on ancient Korean martial arts is the Muyedobotongji; which has sources that can be traced back to Ming Dynasty China. The ancient Korean art of bare-handed fighting, known as Gwonbeop is derived from Chinese Quanfa (boxing), and is written in the same Kanji (which in Japanese is Kempo (拳法), although as I've said before, Kempo doesn't have a direct lineage to Chinese Boxing). So evidence, both in terms of ancient texts and by examining pre-Taekwondo Korean martial arts like Gweonbop, Taekkyeon etc., indicates that traditional Korean martial arts were more similar to Chinese martial arts (more circular) rather than of Japanese Karate (more linear). Even older Japanese martial arts (e.g. Taijutsu) is more circular in nature than Japanese Karate. Some people argue that the linear nature of Japanese martial arts is derived from Kenjutsu -- i.e.: using straight linear movements like you would when hacking with a sword. Admittedly my knowledge here is rather limited, but my initial thoughts are skeptical considering that Karate was widely practised by commoners whereas Kenjutsu was restricted to the Samurai class. Also some might argue that pre-Bakumatsu Samurai used more circular techniques anyway (which I imagine would have been particularly important during the second Mongolian invasion of Japan in 1281.

[5FDP]

I disagree with the statement about Taekwondo's circular nature.

That's OK. We'll just agree to disagree then shall we ;) :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Actually, I think I misunderstood what you meant by "circle movements." Perhaps what you meant to say was that Hapkido, like all internal styles, has a greater focus on the use of small and subtle circular motions than external styles like Taekwondo.

Internal styles will use small and subtle circular movements to manipulate rotational force (torque), as well as the use of other biomechanic principles like leverage etc. This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnfZVDcnwww) demonstrates how you can counter your opponent's power just through the use of small and subtle rotations.

Having said that, not all internal styles use small circular movements though. Most do, but some don't. An exception that comes to mind is none other than Hapkido's forerunner, Aikido, which uses quite outwardly large circular movements (even their wrist and ankle rotations are rather "large"), as can be seen in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM). However Aikido practitioners justify this by saying that Aikido techniques were based on Taijutsu used by Samurai, this should be able to be used when holding a sword, thus you're unable to do the smaller and tighter turns that other internal styles use, lest you run into your own blade! ;D

But I personally prefer smaller, tighter and more subtle circular movements. :) :)

--------------------------------
Note: I'm not saying that circular movements or styles with more of an emphasis/focus on circular movements are inherently superior to linear movements and styles that emphasis those. While circular movements have the advantage of being able to manipulate your opponent's power, linear movements have the advantage of being faster (since the shortest distance between any two points is a straight line!). In reality, all martial arts have both circular and linear elements to them and both have their values in practical application. While I enjoy discussing different elements between styles, I'd like to remind people that by doing so I'm not encouraging or condoning "style discrimination." As I've often said before, the best style is the style that works for you (the individual). Besides, my favourite move would have to be a straight external and linear kick to the janglies! :D

[klystron]

Taekwondo is essentially derived from Shotokan Karate. TKD's founder Choi Honghi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Hong_Hi) lived in Japan for some time where he learnt Shotokan Karate from Funakoshi Gichin himself.

I did not know that. Very interesting.


Besides, my favourite move would have to be a straight external and linear kick to the janglies!
:eek:
A very effective move regardless of which style you practice!

[5FDP]

Actually, I think I misunderstood what you meant by "circle movements." Perhaps what you meant to say was that Hapkido, like all internal styles, has a greater focus on the use of small and subtle circular motions than external styles like Taekwondo.


That's another way of saying it, but I get your point now. It seems we are on the same page now :)

[GoktimusPrime]

TakaraTOMY Bludgeon (L) vs. Hasbro Bludgeon (R):
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/comparisons/comparison_rotfbludgeons_taiketsu.jpg

Okay, I don't know if anyone can tell, cos I posed these in a real hurry and the stances/positions probably aren't very accurate - but the intention at least was to have TOMY Bludgeon using Japanese kenjutsu vs. Hasbro Bludgeon using Spanish Rapier Brawling (so the Japanese toy is using a Japanese martial art and the Western Bludgeon is using a European martial art ;)). But anyway, this demonstrates a basic technique from Rapier fighting -- using the dagger to make contact and 'stick' to your opponent's sword, thus trapping it, then following up by bringing your own sword down and slashing across the opponent's throat (cutting the jugular vein).

[kup]

Offtopic: Why do you have two Bludgeons?

[Autocon]

which martial arts dont u do because its crap? lol karate, tai kuondow....?

[GoktimusPrime]

We try not to encourage any form of style discrimination by labelling any particular style as "crap."

The individual matters more than the style. Learning a 'good' style doesn't mean you can fight, and conversely not learning a martial art doesn't mean you can't. Arguably one of the greatest fighters of the late 20th Century was Mohammed Ali - who didn't learn any traditional martial art, but a fighting sport (modern boxing). Yet if we took Ali in his prime and put him up against say Bruce Lee in his prime, I'd put my money on Ali.

A more important question over "what style do you do?" is "Can you fight?"

Now having said all that, I'm speaking from a combat/self defence martial arts perspective. People do martial arts for different reasons - not everyone learns it for fighting. There are some people who learn it as:
+ a sport, e.g.: Olympic Wrestling/Judo/Fencing/Taekwondo etc.
+ a performance art, e.g.: Capoeira, Modern Wushu, Pencak Silat etc.
+ for holistic health, e.g.: non-combative styles of Tai Chi

None of those reasons are "wrong" or "crap." The best style is the style that works for you. :cool:

[5FDP]

The term 'martial arts' speaks for itself - it is a form of art. The term 'self defence' is also self explanatory.

I don't think that it's either necessary or practical for someone to self-profess that they can fight. It should be "can you defend yourself".

In my experience, the first person that says they can fight is usually the first to hit the pavement.

[GoktimusPrime]

The term 'martial arts' speaks for itself - it is a form of art. The term 'self defence' is also self explanatory.

I don't think that it's either necessary or practical for someone to self-profess that they can fight. It should be "can you defend yourself".

In my experience, the first person that says they can fight is usually the first to hit the pavement.

Erm, I think this is a matter of semantics going by one's definition of "fight." From a traditional combat POV martial arts isn't about winning. It's not about defeating an opponent or even smacking their heads in. It's about survival. From a personal perspective, being a good fighter isn't about hurting or killing lots of people - it's about coming home in one piece.

And this is where combative martial arts differ so much from other forms of martial arts like sports martial arts. Because the core definition of "fighting" is entirely different (i.e.: survival), it is substantially different from martial arts used in competitions where the definition has changed to victory (i.e.: winning points, matches, tournaments etc.).

Hence why if someone tells me they want to learn martial arts for self defence, I recommend that they consider studying a traditional style rather than a competitive sport style. In traditional martial arts the only competition you have is with yourself in an effort to achieve continual self improvement.

From a self defence perspective, if someone gets into a fight the question is not, "Did you win?" but rather, "Did you survive?" Well... if the person has _lived_ to tell you that they've been in a fight, then the answer is obvious. :)

So yeah, when I say "fight" I don't mean fighting in terms of winning and losing - but just in terms of surviving. If a person swings a hit at you and you manage to block or dodge that hit, then quickly turn and run away - then "Great Success!" =D

[5FDP]

So yeah, when I say "fight" I don't mean fighting in terms of winning and losing - but just in terms of surviving. If a person swings a hit at you and you manage to block or dodge that hit, then quickly turn and run away - then "Great Success!" =D

Agreed, however while we're on the subject of semantics, I would suggest that in order to survive you have to be able to defend yourself first which brings me back to my point ;) :D

BTW - I am referring to the traditional styles rather than any competitive sport style.

[GoktimusPrime]

Perhaps we can simplify the question into "Are you competent?" :)

Cos ultimately competence is more important than stylistic differences. Now that's not to say that it's wrong to ask about styles or to discuss them... but simply not consider styles as the penultimate factor that defines fighters.

Another factor to consider is finding a good teacher. I've seen lots of students who study traditional martial arts styles, but are not competent fighters because of the teacher. For example, I've come across a lot of schools that are really good at teaching forms, moves etc., but hopeless at teaching application. So their students become really good at performing the movements and are probably brilliant at passing grading exams... but are incompetent fighters.

[5FDP]

To be honest, I don't think there would be any way to simplify the question "are you competent", "can you defend yourself", or "are you a good fighter" because they're all subjective questions anyway with no real way to gauge the accuracy of the response.

Obviously in western cultures there are grading systems but as you said, you may have an incompetent teacher and by no fault of your own, may be an incompetent fighter (yes, I used the word fighter only for lack of a better word :D) however do not know any better.

I completely agree with your statement to "not consider styles as the penultimate factor that defines fighters", as this means nothing and only highlights further that assuming someone is a good defender / fighter / competent is impossible and potentially a dangerous assumption at that.

[SamLoi888]

Language warning on this and even though the main purpose of the article is humour it does make some very relevant points about modern day martial arts.

McDojo (http://encyclopediadramatica.com/McDojo)

[GoktimusPrime]

Sadly the majority of martial arts schools I encounter are McDojos. :( Finding a good authentic non commercialised martial arts school is becoming increasingly hard.

Having said that, I guess McDojos are kinda like knock offs. Just as people say that so long as KO sellers openly let people know that what they're selling are KOs then there's no harm or foul because then consumers can make an informed choice. It's more of the sellers who don't admit it, or even claim that their KOs are legit that infuriate collectors more because they're actively deceiving collectors.

Likewise I personally get miffed when I see really McDojos who use the words "Self Defence" in their marketing. I understand that different people do martial arts for different reasons, and not everyone is necessarily interested in doing them for learning how to fight or for self defence. Some people just like to do it for the sport, or for fitness... or just as a fun hobby. Whether they can actually defend themselves in a real fight or not isn't terribly important to them. It's not my thing (cos personally if I wanted to play a sport but had no interest in fighting, then I'd play football or tennis etc.) -- but hey, everyone has different opinions.

I've come across ONE martial arts school that didn't use the words "self defence" in their marketing, and when I spoke to the instructor, he admitted that what they were doing was just a sport and advised that I look elsewhere if I wanted to actually learn fighting. And I can respect that -- they're open and honest about where they're coming from and what they're doing. This school happened to be teaching Olympic Judo and they were teaching people aspiring to win competitions (possibly even compete in the Olympics); they didn't really care about practical fighting.

So my objection with most McDojos -- aside from the commercialisation -- is the dishonesty. It must be awful to attend one of these schools, pay loads of money for membership, lessons, uniforms, gradings, belts etc., then one day if you actually get into a real fight (or even a friendly spar with someone from another style/school), realise that everything you've been learning for months/years (and PAID for it with your money) has been a complete WOFTAM in terms of learning practical self defence (being being led to believe that you were learning just that).

There was one time I met a dude who recently returned from overseas after winning a trophy from coming first place in an international tournament. He was boasting and bragging about how great he was and how easily he beat his opponents. So I invited him to a friendly spar at a mutual friend's garage. He threw out a few kicks which I easily blocked, then in my opening move I just grabbed his throat and put him onto the floor where I then placed my knee onto his upper chest (across the pectoral muscle). He was so inept at trying to counter my grapple that he reverted to scratching my hand with his nails (umm... okay). Because it was just a friendly match I only squeezed his throat hard enough to restrict his breathing but not actually choke him (so it would've felt more like an asthma attack - he could still breathe, but it was shallow and uncomfortable). And the entire fight only lasted about 3 seconds tops.

But yeah... it was a bit of a rude reality slap... I could tell he was heartbroken after being defeated so easily (and anyone who's met me knows that I am NOT the most athletic person in the world - so if I can beat you then you know you're in trouble! :D)

[GoktimusPrime]

A colleague of mine has black belts in 3 different kinds of martial arts and he wants to do a demonstration - which I volunteered to assist with. Today we did our first practice and... well... here are my thoughts.

He did one thing that I see in a LOT of martial arts demonstrations that I don't quite like - and that is he asked me, as the attacker, to be a very _compliant_ attacker. i.e.: I launch my attack then pretty much LET him counterattack me. He doesn't want me to continue fighting him once he's started his counter.

Umm... buh!?

Sadly this is an all too common occurence with martial arts demonstrations. At one stage I asked him why I couldn't counter him and he said, "Cos I need to win." In other words, in order for him to demonstrate his techniques nicely he needs me to be perfectly compliant. Now it seems that this is the way he normally trains too. So he's very, very good at beating up compliant attackers who just throw 1-3 attacks then pause. Right now I'm sore all over from being twisted, thrown about and hit over and over again... each time, as per his request, offering virtually no resistance against him.

For example at one stage he told me that I had to punch him like this (http://www.bccorefitness.com/images/karate-punch.JPG). Now I understand the use for the fist's nest in drills, set forms etc., but in actual application against an opponent I'll always instinctively punch more like this (http://www.goju-karate.co.uk/uploads/images/Club/GavPunch.jpg) (i.e. with my guard UP). It's not something I even think about, it's just instinctual, so naturally when the threw hits at me, I just automatically responded with a block or evasion etc. Each time he either told me to lower my guard or stand still and not move out of the way!

IMO that's not a really good way to demonstrate martial arts. Of _course_ someone can beat me if you've explicitly instructed me to stop resisting or countering you! I'm not having a whinge because he beat me; what I'm a bit miffed about is the way I got beaten... on completely unfair terms.

Imagine if we had a Chess game and I told you that:
a/ You could only take my pieces in the first two or three turns.
b/ You CANNOT enforce Check or Checkmate on me.
...only under such conditions can I show you how awesome my Chess playing skills are!

I can understand reasonable restrictions for safety reasons, e.g. light contact, no full force throws etc. - but beyond such restrictions I'd expect to be able to move as I'd like.

Another interesting moment was one of his defence techniques against a downward knife attack. He intercepted my incoming hand holding the knife (empty plastic water bottle :p) by crossing his forearms together (like this (http://www.logansmartialarts.com/style/img/block.png) but raised up against a downward stab). After we finished rehearsing, I asked him if he would indulge me curiosity and show me how he would defend against a fighting opponent. So I did the downward knife attack, but this time not a straight stab but a hooking raking action. He did the same block but this time the knife went down and 'cut' across both wrists. I pointed this out to him as he didn't seem to notice (or mind). So we tried again and he countered with a crescent kick and said, "See, I've kicked you." Yeah sure, you kicked me, but I've slashed both your wrists open! -- guess who's worse off? :p But yeah, once I could actually fight back he wasn't able to twist or throw me about like he was doing before (how about that eh?!)

The thing that I dislike about such demonstrations is that they're approaching it with such an unrealistic scenario. NOBODY would ever throw an attack and then just pause! Even a person with no fight training, no sport experience and poor athleticism would still put up _some_ kind of struggle... even if it's just flinching. A lot of our counterattacks actually start from a flinch movement because that's what your body naturally wants to do.

But anyway, for the purposes of my colleague's demonstration I'm gonna have to play nice and be this "brainless thug"... simply because he doesn't seem able to execute his moves if I put up a resistance. Blargh. (-_-)

[5FDP]

I have no problem with a senior belt being compliant when teaching a junior belt; it's the best way for a junior belt to learn... but the other way around seems a bit pointless as you would expect someone who has trained in martial arts for years to be able to counter an agressive attack i.e. it should be second nature.

When I first started out learning Hapkido I appreciated it when the black belts would take the time to show me the various techniques in slow motion. It wasn't until I progressed through the belts that I gained speed and could execute movements without thinking about them. As they say - you need to learn how to walk before you can run.

[Oldschool78]

Hi guys, sorry to jump in on the thread. Just wondering what art everyone does here? Gonna go back and read the whole thread... whew make take a while, but will be easier to read if i know which styles you guys train in :):)

[GoktimusPrime]

Just wondering what art everyone does here?
I mostly do Seven Star Northern Praying Mantis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Praying_Mantis_%28martial_art%29) Kung Fu. To my knowledge, we have members here who practise:
+ Liuhebafa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liuhebafa) Kung Fu
+ Taekwondo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo)
+ Hapkido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido)
+ Uechiryuu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uechi-ry%C5%AB) Okinawan Karate
+ Brazilian Juujutsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazilian_Jiu-Jitsu)
...apologies if I've forgotten any.

I've intentionally not mentioned who does what style other than myself -- I'll leave it to those people to re-identify themselves or not if they want to. :)

Something else I'd like to discuss is the idea that Asians are inherently better at martial arts than non-Asians. Some of the best martial arts instructors I've come across have been non-Asians. Yet they sometimes suffer from many students who refuse to learn from them, simply because they're not Asians... including fellow Caucasians! I've spoken to some of these teachers and they say that often other white people come to their school, see a white guy teaching an Asian martial art, then quickly conclude that their teaching must be rubbish -- simply because the teacher is a white guy.

Now apart from the obvious stupidity of such a concept, what I also find laughable is that if a white person refuses to learn martial arts from a white teacher because they think that white people can't be as good at martial arts as Asians... then WHY, as a white person, even bother learning an Asian martial art in the first place?? According to their own logic, if they believe that white people can never truly master an Asian martial art -- then that would include themselves!

To make things worse, I have met several Asian martial arts instructors who are really not very good... but they have lots of students who just _flock_ to them simply because they're Asian! Especially if they speak really poor English too (I wish I were kidding). It's as if... these people want to live the "Karate Kid" dream and have their own Mister Miyagi. They're ideal image of a good martial artist is an old Asian man who speaks with a heavy Asian accent. You see a white guy with an Australian accent... RUN FOR THE HILLS PA KENT!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/th_facepalm_movieprime.jpg

I decided to bring this up because in the past week I've been practising with a guy who seems to have this preconception that people who come from the country where a martial art originated from are naturally better than those who don't. i.e. He seems to believe that Japanese people are naturally more gifted at say Kendo, Chinese people are gifted at Kung Fu etc.

This whole attitude is about as ridiculous as saying that only the French can ever truly master tennis, since tennis originated from France. Yeah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafael_Nadal) right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Federer)!

Has anyone else ever witnessed or experienced discrimination in martial arts?

[5FDP]

To my knowledge, we have members here who practise:
+ Hapkido (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido)

I've intentionally not mentioned who does what style other than myself -- I'll leave it to those people to re-identify themselves or not if they want to. :)

That would be me.


Has anyone else ever witnessed or experienced discrimination in martial arts?

We had an asian student in our class many years ago and he was constantly ridiculed by people making Bruce Lee noises (you know the ones) whenever he was around.

It wasn't until after he left that I found all this out. I tried to encourage him to return but the damage was already done. Fortunately, the idiots who made life hard for him were also weeded out fairly quickly.

[GoktimusPrime]

We had an asian student in our class many years ago and he was constantly ridiculed by people making Bruce Lee noises (you know the ones) whenever he was around.

It wasn't until after he left that I found all this out. I tried to encourage him to return but the damage was already done. Fortunately, the idiots who made life hard for him were also weeded out fairly quickly.

That's sad, but I'm glad to hear the perpetrators aren't around. Which leads me another thing with martial arts... responsibility. Teaching someone martial arts is in effect giving them power (because you are empowering someone when you teach them to defend themselves). And as Spiderman's Uncle Ben always says, "With great power comes great responsibility." And when it comes to schools, I think teachers have a responsibility not to teach martial arts to irresponsible people. If you have an irresponsible student, then I think it's best to encourage them to leave.

For example we once had this one guy come to our school -- he was an obvious thug who wanted to learn martial arts to beat people up. My instructor made a conscious decision to ONLY teach him very basic stuff. He knew that he'd done other martial arts before, so he only taught him things that he already knew... i.e. he never learnt anything new at our school. He would come class after class, hoping to advance and learn new techniques, but he was always held back. Eventually he got fed up and just stopped coming to lessons. A lot of Kung Fu teachers also know Taiji (Tai Chi) - and some of them, if they encounter aggressive and potentially thuglike or otherwise irresponsible students, will exclusively teach them Taiji. That way they're still learning martial arts and self defence, but in an entirely passive and defensive way that cannot be used to beat people up.

One sad story: I once visited a Goujuu Karate Dojo and I came across this brown belt who had serious anger issues. After the class I spoke with the Sensei and told him that I was quite surprised that a student with such a bad attitude had already achieved brown belt and advised that he really should never be allowed to obtain a black belt. The Sensei said that while he he agreed with me in principle, this student just refuses to give up. Apparently he'd been trying to get a black belt in Karate for thirty years. This is despite the fact that he's extremely dedicated and persistent (the guy attends classes 3 times a week). His previous teachers must have tried to hold him back, but due to just incredible patience and perseverance, he's gone from school to school and worked himself up to brown belt and now at this school I'd visited, was qualified to go for black belt. The teacher said that there was technically nothing he could do at that point to deny him permission to sit for the black belt exam - and also because he attends so many classes he's a main source of income for his relatively small school (i.e. losing such a regular student would mean a significant loss of income for him).

So I was quite frustrated at seeing yet another thug - who should never have even graduated from white belt - on the verge of receiving a black belt, simply because he persisted for 3 decades and paid lots and lots of money. (-_-) IMO a responsible teacher should absolutely exercise discretion on who s/he should accept as students based on their psychological disposition.

So I applaud any martial arts teacher/school that - either discreetly or directly - refuses to teach martial arts to bullies/thugs (and good on your Hapkido school for weeding those guys out). :) The quality of your students is better than the quantity. But having said that, at the end of the day martial arts instructors also need to feed their families, and good intentions don't pay bills. But there are ways around that too - e.g. only teaching them bare basics or only teaching passive techniques. That way the teacher still gets their income but safe in the knowledge that they aren't creating more thugs. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Hi guys, sorry to jump in on the thread. Just wondering what art everyone does here? Gonna go back and read the whole thread... whew make take a while, but will be easier to read if i know which styles you guys train in :):)
I just remembered, there's a poll about what martial arts styles are practised here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=7326). :cool:

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay... the new "Karate Kid" movie is out -- and yeah yeah, I know that movie martial arts are never anything like real martial arts, but that's not what I wanna raise here.

The movie is called Karate Kid right... but from all the images and trailers I've seen, it appears to be set in China, and uses Kung Fu (or at least the theatrical version of it), not Karate.

Now I kept on thinking... surely there's more to this than meets the eye. Surely NOBODY in their right mind, in this day and age, would do something as blatantly stupid as making a movie called "The Karate Kid" and have it feature an entirely different martial art. Surely not.

But I just had this sinking feeling that I could be wrong, so my curiosity got the better of me today - and no, I didn't go pay to watch the movie - but I Googled it and came across this on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Karate_Kid_%282010_film%29):
"Unlike its 1984 counterpart of the same name, the 2010 remake, despite its title, does not feature karate, which is from Okinawa, but focuses on the main character learning kung fu in China. Allegations of cultural ignorance and potential racism have resulted from the film's title as the lack of distinction between Japanese and Chinese culture demonstrates deindividuation."

WWHHHHHAAAAAAATT?!? So my suspicions were true!?! If this is true, then I completely agree with the allegations of cultural ignorance and deindividuation - and yes, even potential racism - could you imagine if there were a movie set in the Australian outback with Aborigines performing a Maori Haka! Or if someone made a movie called "Transformers" and it just actually about GoBots! :o

The fact that the movie is set in China and that the Master (Jacky Chan's character) is probably Chinese doesn't bother me. After all, the original Karate Kid was set in the United States and the Master (Mr. Miyagi) was an American patriot (of Okinawan heritage). So I have no problem with the movie being set outside of Japan and lacking Japanese characters... fine. Karate, like most martial arts, is practised internationally - not only in Japan/Okinawa. But in a movie called The KARATE Kid, I would expect the kid to... ya know... use Karate! -- regardless of characters' ethnicity or the story's location.

So yeah... I'm not happy about this film coming out and deindividuationising (is that a word?) Karate and Kung Fu. It's condescending and insulting to both martial arts (and to their background cultures). Just as well I had no prior intention of seeing this film in the first place.

[5FDP]

You mean there are movies out there that do not accurately reflect conventional wisdom. I thought Hollywood was an honest industry. This changes everything :rolleyes: :D

[SamLoi888]

Kung-Fu Kid just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Oldschool78]

A lot of the old Kungfu movies in the 70s had billings with Karate on them. Was just the fad at the time i guess.

[Bartrim]

They are marketing it as a remake of a popular movie from the 80's. If they didn't then it wouldn't of attracted anywhere near the attention it got. I'm guessing they felt Joe Public really wouldn't be bothered by that fact.

[GoktimusPrime]

You mean there are movies out there that do not accurately reflect conventional wisdom. I thought Hollywood was an honest industry. This changes everything :rolleyes: :D
I know! At least we can trust that the Internet will never lie to us! *hugs computer* :p

Kung-Fu Kid just doesn't have the same ring to it.
So call it something else. Or - here's an idea - make the characters use Karate!!

A lot of the old Kungfu movies in the 70s had billings with Karate on them. Was just the fad at the time i guess.
It was a different time because until Bruce Lee came along, most Western audiences were rather ignorant of Chinese martial arts. This was partially due to entrenched racism in the Chinese community with many teachers who refused to teach Kung Fu to non-Chinese students. Bruce Lee was the first to begin teaching Chinese martial arts to blacks, whites... anyone who wanted to learn. IMO that was Lee's greatest legacy. Unfortunately there are still a small number of Kung Fu teachers who continue to refuse to teach non-Asians (sigh). Karate was already quite well known by because of one word: Elvis. ;)


They are marketing it as a remake of a popular movie from the 80's. If they didn't then it wouldn't of attracted anywhere near the attention it got. I'm guessing they felt Joe Public really wouldn't be bothered by that fact.
Karate is definitely more widely known amongst Western audiences than Kung Fu - in Australia the most commonly practised martial art style is Gokanryu Karate. I get that... so with that rationale, why not make the movie based on Karate?

My guess is that this movie will elicit one of the following reactions from audiences in regards to the martial arts:
+ Perpetuating ignorance in allowing people to believe that Karate and Kung Fu are "the same thing."
+ Confounding people with some knowledge of Karate who are wondering why the moves look like stylised Kung Fu.
+ Confounding people with some knowledge of Kung Fu who are wondering why the characters are using stylised Kung Fu in a movie entitled "The Karate Kid."

I'm not comfortable with the excuse of "Most people won't know the difference, so let's run with it." That'd be like if a Transformer movie had an entirely GOBOT cast with the same excuse. Cos it'd probably work - Joe Average probably wouldn't honestly know the difference between Bumblebee and Scooter (at least, not prior to 2007). You can just imagine the fan reaction to that!

Suddenly Drift doesn't seem so bad...

[Bartrim]

I saw a doco ages ago that said something about even though he is fluent in several styles of fighting Kung Fu is his first (or favoured) discipline... I think, it was ages ago.

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.

[5FDP]

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.

Pfft... next you'll try to convince everyone that E.T. wasn't based on a true story :rolleyes:

[Bartrim]

Pfft... next you'll try to convince everyone that E.T. wasn't based on a true story :rolleyes:

What it isn't true?:p

[GoktimusPrime]

But seriously Gok let it slide man. I could bitch and moan about the errors in "The Perfect Storm" until your ears bleed but it's a movie so I let it slide.
I already suspend a LOT of disbelief in terms of the so-called "martial arts" that they use in movies - because most of the time, the "martial arts" in martial arts movies are anything but. Most of the more realistic martial arts are often seen in non-martial arts movies like The Last of the Mohicans and even The Lord of the Rings (ignoring stuff like magic and super-human moves like Legolas jumping all over Oliphants ;)). So I never watch a 'martial arts' movie expecting to see any remotely realistic martial arts. But I accept that it's part of the genre -- the objective is entertainment, and acrobatic and gymnastic over-stylised moves are more interesting to watch to the Joe-average movie goer I guess.

But even with that... one would expect a movie called "Karate Kid" to feature Karate. I haven't seen The Perfect Storm -- but I assume there's a storm in it somewhere right? Imagine if the movie didn't feature a storm and instead focused on some other meteorological phenomenon like... spooky overcast skies or clear fine weather.

It's the misleading nature of the title that bothers me. Again, the Michael Bay TF films may not be cinematic masterpieces, but at least they feature Transformers in them (Autobots, Decepticons - warring etc.). Some people might not like the way the films portray the Transformers, but at least they're there! Imagine if they made movies called "Transformers" and all they featured were My Little Pony... imagine the fan rage!

[GoktimusPrime]

Demonac directed me to this great video -- from Penn & Teller's B.S. episode on Martial Arts. It pretty much sums up a lot of the garbage that's floating around martial arts today. Enjoy. :)

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_3BSk2TbK4
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB3y10i_T9E
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggroj7w9J5k

Parental Advisory: Videos contain coarse language, adult themes and violence.

[GoktimusPrime]

Gah, unfortunately YouTube's taken those videos down now and I can't find them on another site. :( I hope folks were able to watch them before they were removed.

Edit: For those who didn't see the videos, here's a brief summary on a few of the highlights from the show. Penn and Teller's BS! is of course about skeptics debunking myths, in this case, the myths of martial arts as a means of self defence. This isn't to say that martial arts are inherently useless for self defence, but unfortunately the way that martial arts are often taught in many schools today - they have become ineffectual. In short, a lot of people don't know how to teach martial arts properly as a means of self defence, and thus they often become rather useless. Those of us who've been in the game long enough know that it's actually hard to find a good martial arts school.

Anyway, the show looks at three different kinds of martial arts:
1: traditional martial arts
2: mystical martial arts
3: beat the living excrement out of you martial arts
The found three rather dodgy instructors to prove their point - and they also found one competent instructor who acted as the martial arts skeptic (i.e. voice of reason :)).

The traditionalist was a Karate teacher who held some world record for board breaking, which he claimed came from his Chi power. They debunked that and explained the science behind board breaking and demonstrated how simple it was to do it. The MA skeptic had his wife break a board with the palm of her hand and Teller easily broke a board too. The Karate teacher also admitted that a lot of the techniques he teaches is "fantasy fighting" -- i.e. impractical for self defence, but he teaches them to build confidence. Penn and Teller said that this is dangerous bulldust, and I agree... because you're giving students false confidence. Yes, having confidence is really important and a good thing to teach... but you should teach it by actually making your students competent rather than letting them pretend that they can fight and letting them believe in a fantasy. Cos that fantasy belief can get them hurt or killed in a fight. As I've often said, in our training we should _always_ assume that our attacker(s) is/are stronger, faster and better than we are. It is pointless to assume anything else.

The mystic was a Chi Kung teacher - and you can see that part of the video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHXUdU5bBQ4). Now I like internal martial arts, I like Chi Kung... I'd _like_ to say that what this lady is teaching is fake bollocks, but unfortunately the reality is:
a/ There are a LOT of internal martial arts school like this. Many who believe they can fight without making physical contact. These people _literally_ believe in using something like the Force from Star Wars. And it's pointless trying to argue and rationalise with these people because it's like trying to argue with some really deeply fundamentally religious person -- they always have some pseudo-logical excuse that makes perfect sense to them but you can't argue against. The excuses are of course, complete bollocks, but they just present it in a way where you can't counter them. e.g. "I couldn't possibly show you my power because then I'd kill you." <--I kid you not, I've had people say this to me! Unless I'm willing to actually try and seriously injure him or kill him (in which case I'd be arrested for assault or murder) then I can't argue against these people!
b/ This hippie style of Chi Kung is actually nothing new, and are probably as old as the more practical schools of Chi Kung and Tai Chi. A lot these Chi Kung and Tai Chi schools were formed by rich aristocrats in ancient China who marveled at the power of martial arts practised by warriors, monks and even commoners - and wanted to have this power too. But they didn't want to... ya know, break a sweat or damage a fingernail. So they pretty much created this fantastic idea of "Chi Kung" where they would shove each other about with their imaginary Force Powers, then link it with Chinese medicine (trying to use science to explain the supernatural (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_Science)).

I divide internal martial arts into 3 different categories:
1/ Fighting styles: e.g. Yang Tai chi, Baguazhang, Jujutsu, Hapkido etc.
2/ Holistic health styles: e.g. Tai Chi - some styles of Tai Chi are only practised for health, like Yoga, and don't have practical fight apps.
3/ Mystical styles: like the stuff shown in Penn and Teller. And Star Wars. But ya know, Star Wars is cool (cos Jedi are able to back up their weird beliefs with this thing called a lightsabre!). :)

This lady believes that she can actually talk to her organs, and that her organs actually use language to communicate with her. Wow... her kidneys speak English! Or maybe they speak Rygidian, which coincidentally is exactly the same as English. :p

The beat the living f*** out of you guy is someone who teaches their own modern form of martial arts. This guy loves teaching students LETHAL moves and advocates the use of lethal unarmed force as a means of self defence! Penn asked the teacher how he'd feel if any of his students killed someone with the techniques he's taught them, and he said, "I'd feel pretty good," because he believes that you should do ANYTHING to defend yourself. The show then pointed out that in the United States (as in Australia), you're only allowed to use reasonable force in self defence, in the context of the assault. Teaching his students such excessively lethal force can get them charged with manslaughter (the skeptic pointed out that he's seen some martial arts schools which teach their students to break an attacker's neck _after_ they've been subdued, which is murder). The skeptic pointed out that the problem with people who teach lethal moves is that they automatically assume that their students are always the victims and are innocent... never perpetrators.

This goes back to what I was talking about before about teachers needing to exercise discretion in whom they choose as students, and that there are certain members of society who should _never_ be taught martial arts. But unfortunately a lot of schools don't discern... as long as you pay your membership and lesson fees, they'll teach you. :(

Penn then said that if you're going to have this attitude that lethal force is perfectly acceptable for self defence, then there's a far easier and cheaper alternative to learning martial arts -- buy a gun! Morally and legally it equates to nearly the same thing (i.e. you are defending yourself with lethal force, and you will be arrested!)

So of course, this goes into a point that when learning self defence, you need to be able to apply it in a legally acceptable way - i.e. that you are only using enough force to defend yourself.

[Tabias Prime]

The traditionalist was a Karate teacher who held some world record for board breaking, which he claimed came from his Chi power. They debunked that and explained the science behind board breaking and demonstrated how simple it was to do it. The MA skeptic had his wife break a board with the palm of her hand and Teller easily broke a board too. The Karate teacher also admitted that a lot of the techniques he teaches is "fantasy fighting" -- i.e. impractical for self defence, but he teaches them to build confidence. Penn and Teller said that this is dangerous bulldust, and I agree... because you're giving students false confidence. Yes, having confidence is really important and a good thing to teach... but you should teach it by actually making your students competent rather than letting them pretend that they can fight and letting them believe in a fantasy. Cos that fantasy belief can get them hurt or killed in a fight. As I've often said, in our training we should _always_ assume that our attacker(s) is/are stronger, faster and better than we are. It is pointless to assume anything else.

I never understood the whole breaking wood thing, I have never heard of a piece of wood attacking someone and what did the piece of wood ever do to anyone....

My brother taught the GKR form of karate and the way general get people in is cold canvas an any until they meet their quota, Its kind of like J.Ws of the martial arts....

With the whole Karate Kid issue, Could they not of used the same story but set it in Japan instead of china, that way there would be no confusion
in regards to the whole karate/kung fu issue...

[GoktimusPrime]

I never understood the whole breaking wood thing, I have never heard of a piece of wood attacking someone and what did the piece of wood ever do to anyone....
Heh, yeah. My favourite line from Karate Kid II is:
Daniel: "Do you think you could break a log like that?"
Miyagi: "Don't know. Never been attacked by tree."

I also once saw a newspaper cartoon where there's a Dojo full of Karate students, and outside the window is a UFO that's landed and the aliens coming out to attack are made of planks of wood. ;D


With the whole Karate Kid issue, Could they not of used the same story but set it in Japan instead of china, that way there would be no confusion
in regards to the whole karate/kung fu issue...
I don't mind the story being set in China, cos:
a) The original Karate Kid wasn't set in Japan, it was set in America.
b) Karate originated from Okinawa, not Japan. And in the original Karate Kid movies, Miyagi was an American of Okinawan (not Japanese) descent and instructed Daniel in Okinawan (not Japanese) Karate. There is a subtle but distinct differnce between Okinawan and Japanese Karate (e.g. Okinawan Karate has tighter blocks and isn't as rigid and jarring as Japanese Karate -- it's more similar to Fujian Kung Fu from which Karate was originally derived from).

I'm just unhappy that a movie called "Karate Kid" is completely devoid of any Karate.

[Tabias Prime]

I don't mind the story being set in China, cos:
a) The original Karate Kid wasn't set in Japan, it was set in America.
b) Karate originated from Okinawa, not Japan. And in the original Karate Kid movies, Miyagi was an American of Okinawan (not Japanese) descent and instructed Daniel in Okinawan (not Japanese) Karate. There is a subtle but distinct differnce between Okinawan and Japanese Karate (e.g. Okinawan Karate has tighter blocks and isn't as rigid and jarring as Japanese Karate -- it's more similar to Fujian Kung Fu from which Karate was originally derived from).

I'm just unhappy that a movie called "Karate Kid" is completely devoid of any Karate. Agreed

Sorry my bad its been a while since I've seen any of the K.K movies...

[GoktimusPrime]

Getting back to the board-breaking thing... while I agree with you Tabias - IMO it's effectively a parlour trick that doesn't seem to bear much relevance to fighting application. It's also a waste of trees which impacts on the environment (although they do have reusable plastic boards now, but still a lot of demos I see use still use wooden boards).

But for the sake of discussion, let's look at some possible arguments supporting board breaking:

1/ A method of conditioning. It toughens up your hands cos hitting things like people's skulls with your bare fists really hurts! Japanese martial arts have this thing called "Tameshiwari" and the Chinese call it "Iron Hand" or "Iron Palm" training. However, the traditional form of Iron Hand training does NOT involve breaking objects. It involves striking a hard padded object, such as a Makiwara (http://www.karatedo.co.jp/shureido/english/e_tanren/makiwara.gif) (padded striking post) or a canvas bag filled with gravel (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/22/Iron_palm_.jpg). But in this day and age there are other less archaic methods. I personally own a pair of focus pads which I call "sting pads." The contact surface is intentionally hardened with toughened materials. Well, I don't feel it anymore... :p Other devices like the Wing Chun Dummy (http://www.acasports.co.uk/images/products/full/wooden-dummy.jpg) allow for some hardening of the fists, forearms and feet - and again, doesn't involve breaking (although those dummies are prohibitively expensive).

2/ A method of teaching striking technique. One mistake that all beginners make is that they strike at targets rather than through them. Proponents for board breaking might argue that this exercise demonstrates the value of striking through a target. The problem with this argument is that, as debunked by Penn and Teller, the exercise doesn't necessarily require you to strike through the target per se. As long as you're striking at the correct angle to the board and aligned properly with the grain of the wood, breaking the board doesn't take as much force as one might think (as demonstrated in the video by the skeptic's wife and by Teller. From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_%28martial_arts%29):
"The practice of breaking is controversial within the martial arts community. It is common for public demonstrations to use specially prepared materials that break more easily, without informing their audience of this fact. Thus, the audience is given an impression that the performers are more powerful than they actually are." Penn and Teller also debunked breaking multiple boards at the same time, explaining how once the first board is broken, gravity pretty much does the rest of the work.

3/ Building self-confidence. I once spoke to a practitioner of Kyokushinryu Karate who told me that when he first started as a boy, he was really timid and lacked confidence. When his Sensei told him to break a board, he thought there was no way he could possibly do that. But Sensei snapped at him and insisted that he could do it and told him to believe it. He then went for it, and successfully broke the board. He told me that it felt so good and gave him the most incredible boost of confidence he'd ever felt. He knew it wasn't a practical technique for self-defence... but once he realised that he could break that board, he realised that he could accomplish anything so long as he put his mind to it. It reminded me of The Empire Strikes Back when Yoda told Luke, "Do or do not. There is no try." But having said that, there are obviously other ways to build confidence... like ya know, making your students competent fighters. IMO one of the more uplifting moments in martial arts training is realising that your techniques can work and that you can actually execute them... much like in the famous wax on wax off scene from the original Karate Kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aYl7N0JPWs). :)

[Bartrim]

Pfft... next you'll try to convince everyone that E.T. wasn't based on a true story :rolleyes:

I knew eventually I would find proof that ET was based on a true story. It's a biopic of Lady Gaga

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/et.jpg

[daehenoc]

I was just having a bit of a browse while recovering from a particularly strenuous meeting and found this thread! Very good timing as I've just recently gotten back into my training :)

[5FDP]

I knew eventually I would find proof that ET was based on a true story. It's a biopic of Lady Gaga

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm218/Bartrim/et.jpg

LMAO... the likeness is uncanny :D

[Bartrim]

Can someone explain to me what the hell happened in Green vs Briggs last night? I watched the vid a heap of times and still can' work it out?:confused:

[SamLoi888]

Can someone explain to me what the hell happened in Green vs Briggs last night? I watched the vid a heap of times and still can' work it out?:confused:

Briggs has fight induced brain damage - it is a disgrace that he was even allowed to fight!

[kup]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdrFwikfJNk

[Bartrim]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdrFwikfJNk

LMAO:D Thanks

[GoktimusPrime]

Can someone explain to me what the hell happened in Green vs Briggs last night? I watched the vid a heap of times and still can' work it out?:confused:
From a martial arts POV I thought it was perfect. A common saying from Bushido is "one hit one kill," which is the ideal way of fighting (i.e. ending the fight with a single move; remember that Bushido was created in the context of feudal samurai warfare. In the context of modern civilian self defence it can be something as simple as subduing your attacker in a hold or grapple).

This is the difference between sport fighting and actual real fighting. In a sport, fights are prolonged, but real fights end quickly. The objective of a real fighter like a martial artist is not to engage in a sustained fight, but to end a fight as quickly as possible. In reality you're pretty lucky if you can finish your opponent with a single move. Think of Chess... you want to be able to Checkmate your opponent in as few moves as possible.


Briggs has fight induced brain damage - it is a disgrace that he was even allowed to fight!
From a sport POV I agree. From a martial arts POV we need to remember that in a real fight there are no equalising conditions like weight or size classes. And as I've often said, martial artists _should_ train with the assumption that your opponent will always be superior to you.

I was appalled by Green's response and the crowd's reaction to Briggs' defeat. IMO there's no honour in trying to further disgrace a defeated opponent... but this just further highlights how sport fighting and non-competitive martial arts are worlds apart.

[Bartrim]

But the knockout shot wouldn't of hurt a fly. I agree there is honour in disgracing a defeated opponent but their is no honour in taking a dive either.

[GoktimusPrime]

But the knockout shot wouldn't of hurt a fly.
Seemingly simple hits can be deceptively devastating, especially with brain damage/head trauma. When Samurai were disbanded during the Meiji Period, many former Samurai - now forbidden to carry metal swords - actually scored more kills using wooden swords (bokken/bokuto). This was because when they used metal swords they would often dismember their opponents, but leave them alive (albeit as amputees), whereas seemingly "less harmful" hits with bokken often dealt lethal internal damage.


I agree there is honour in disgracing a defeated opponent but their is no honour in taking a dive either.
gah, this is my fault... I should never had mentioned "honour" because there's no such thing as "honour" in a real fight. My bad.

In a real fight, the best moves are the ones that stop the fight and keep you alive - and if that move happens to be running away or surrendering, then so be it. The first thing any proper martial arts teacher should teach their students is how to run away. All the techniques we learn should be used if:
1/ Your attacker is obstructing your exit, in which case you engage them in a fight long enough before gaining the opportunity to flee (e.g. blocking a hit then shoving them out of the way and legging it)
2/ If retreat or surrender is not an option

So again, from a martial arts POV, if taking a dive or surrendering terminates the fight - then it's the right thing to do. Of course, sport fighting creates an artificial and unrealistic fight environment. If you don't want to fight, then just surrender to your attacker's demands (e.g. give them your money) or leg it. If you have to fight then just taking a dive will just make things worse for you (cos they'll just kick you while you're down -- the best time to kick someone is while they're down!! :D).

[Bartrim]

Seemingly simple hits can be deceptively devastating, especially with brain damage/head trauma. When Samurai were disbanded during the Meiji Period, many former Samurai - now forbidden to carry metal swords - actually scored more kills using wooden swords (bokken/bokuto). This was because when they used metal swords they would often dismember their opponents, but leave them alive (albeit as amputees), whereas seemingly "less harmful" hits with bokken often dealt lethal internal damage.



But we aren't talking about Samurai killing people here. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has boxing experience on the forum and I can tell you that shot by Green wouldn't of knocked me out. I put this in this thread as I didn't think it deserved it's own thread. So from a competitive fighting point of view that fight was a farce.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has boxing experience on the forum and I can tell you that shot by Green wouldn't of knocked me out. I put this in this thread as I didn't think it deserved it's own thread. So from a competitive fighting point of view that fight was a farce.
From a sport fighting POV I agree.

TBH this thread is just called the "Martial Arts Discussion Thread", and there are different kinds of martial arts, which I see as:
+ Traditional (used for fighting, self defence)
+ Sport (used for competitive sport fighting)
+ Health (used purely for maintaining fitness/health, e.g. non-combative Tai Chi)

While my personal preference is for traditional martial arts - and up till now it has been the predominant focus of this thread - I've never specifically stated that this thread was exclusively for traditional martial arts. So I think it's only fair that all kinds of fighting/martial arts be accepted here, as it wouldn't be fair for me to allow my personal bias to stop other people from talking about other kinds of fighting arts. :)

And there have been some genuinely good fighters produced from non-traditional arts. I've often said that we could take Bruce Lee and Mohammed Ali in their primes and stick them in a cage, I'd put my money on Ali. Bruce Lee was a rather ordinary fighter whereas Mohammed Ali was exceptional - and ironically had a better understanding of Yin and Yang than a lot of martial artists I've seen. Ali knew how to combine being hard and soft and how to execute it into a connective flow, or as he called it, "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee."

[GoktimusPrime]

Oh yeah, other kinds of martial arts I neglected to mention include:
+ Dance/performance martial arts, e.g. Capoeira, Modern Wushu etc.
+ Historical martial arts - by this I mean martial arts primarily studied for historical reasons and unlike other traditional martial arts, aren't appliable for modern day civilian self defence. e.g. Spanish Rapier Brawling, European Broadsword, Kenjutsu, Kobudo, Kyudo etc. Sports that have evolved from historical weapon arts (e.g. fencing, modern archery etc.) should fall under the "Sport" category.

Again, while these aren't necessarily my cups of tea, I would accept discussions about any of these sorts of martial arts here. :)

[Bartrim]

Just about to go to first martial arts lesson at the local KRMAS dojo

http://www.kumiai-ryu.com.au/mainpage.html

I'm pretty nervous:o

[GoktimusPrime]

I've never heard of Kumiai ryu before. Could you ask for some information about the style's lineage/history? According to the web site it seems to be a blend of various different martial arts and martial sports. I punched "Kumiai ryu" into Google but I couldn't find much information about it (other than from their site and local business listings - I can't find any independent sources of information; I couldn't find anything about Kumiai on Wikipedia).

Without having seen this school or style, I really can't comment about it. But my advice would just be mindful of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none." But anyway, I hope it all goes well -- at the end of the day, as long as you enjoy it and the system works for you then it's all good. :) Your body will probably be pretty sore for a while now. ;)

[Bartrim]

I've never heard of Kumiai ryu before. Could you ask for some information about the style's lineage/history? According to the web site it seems to be a blend of various different martial arts and martial sports. I punched "Kumiai ryu" into Google but I couldn't find much information about it (other than from their site and local business listings - I can't find any independent sources of information; I couldn't find anything about Kumiai on Wikipedia).

Without having seen this school or style, I really can't comment about it. But my advice would just be mindful of the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none." But anyway, I hope it all goes well -- at the end of the day, as long as you enjoy it and the system works for you then it's all good. :) Your body will probably be pretty sore for a while now. ;)

Hell yes I'm sore today:p but I enjoyed myself and I'll be going back for more.

It is mainly okinawan karate (I think... sorry I'm only very new at this) but incorporates other martial arts to provide practical self defence techniques. I would like to study a set discipline but given my location my opitions are restricted. (ie: this is the only martial arts class in Ulladulla)

[GoktimusPrime]

It is mainly okinawan karate (I think... sorry I'm only very new at this) but incorporates other martial arts to provide practical self defence techniques.
There are numerous different styles of Okinawan Karate e.g. Gojuryu, Uechiryu etc. I tried Googling for Kumiairyu in Japanese with Google Japan, but I just found results relating to football (soccer)! (O_O)


I would like to study a set discipline but given my location my opitions are restricted. (ie: this is the only martial arts class in Ulladulla)
Yeah fair enough. :)

[SGB]

There are numerous different styles of Okinawan Karate e.g. Gojuryu, Uechiryu etc.
You forgot to mention the original style of Karate, Okinawa-Te. :p


If anyone is considering studying Go-Kan-Ryu Karate, don't. It's a useless style with a ridiculously limited arsenal. Took one lesson a couple of years back and regret wasting my time with it.

[GoktimusPrime]

I once sparred with a GKR Black Belt 3rd Dan (note: I'm not an advanced fighter - anyone who's met me or even seen a photo of me can easily see that I'm not the most athletic person in the world) and I managed to defeat him. Turns out he wasn't wearing a cup! ;)

But before we all start ganging up on GKR, I will say that it is an alright style to choose if you've never done any kind of martial art or sport before (and are effectively unco). GKR is pretty good at teaching you the bare basics of fighting, like stances, punching, kicking etc. GKR's basics are decent. But in my observation I find that beyond the beginner's level it's not an impressive style. I would recommend Gokanryu to someone who had no prior martial arts or sport experience and also had difficulty with coordination or the gross motor skills required to master the basic movements in martial arts. I've encountered two people who had really poor coordination and physical skills and struggled with the basics of Muay Thai and Kung Fu - and IMO they would've been better off with something simpler like GKR.

So IMHO I think GKR can be a good preliminary style for people who may be experiencing difficulty breaking into more complicated forms of martial arts... but after mastering GKR basics I'd probably recommend changing to something else.

Gokanryu is the most popular martial art in Australia. It's also an Australian style of Karate and NOT a traditional style from Japan (let alone Okinawa). I remember once visiting a Gojukai Karate Dojo in Japan and - at the time not knowing that GKR was Australian - asked them if the knew about Gokanryu. The answer was, "What's Gokanryu??" ;)

I suspect that Kumiairyu may also be a non-traditional Australian (or Western) made style too cos I've never heard of it and I can't find any independent information about it. But I could be wrong... maybe it's just a really obscure style (like Goroquan* Kung Fu - the direct ancestor of Okinawan Karate... it's freaking hard to find any information about that style!)

----------------------------
*The Chinese characters (Kanji) for Goroquan is pronounced as "Goujuuken" in Japanese; 剛柔拳 :) I've never seen Goroquan IRL, never seen any videos -- saw one grainy black and white photo in an article once. The closest forerunner to Karate I've personally witnessed is Wuzuquan (Five Ancestors Fist); also a Fujian style of Kung Fu like Goroquan, but _much_ easier to find! One distinguishing characteristic of Fujian Kung Fu is the "Sam Chiem (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7cG_DKeZII)" (三戦) stance and form, which of course is called "Sanchin (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RATZKxRW_FE)" by the Okinawans.

[Bartrim]

The rep from one of my supply companies came in today and told me he is brown belt at Kyokushin Karate and showed me some you tube videos of Kenji Midori. All I can say is:eek:

[GoktimusPrime]

My knowledge of Kyokushin Karate is limited, but I know it is definitely a legit style of Japanese karate. I visited a Kyokushin Karate Dojo in Japan once. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay... I have a bit of a dilemma here... I teach self defence as a school sport and it seems that one of the students who's signed up for the new sport season (beginning next week) is a disabled student (wheelchair bound). And of course, the single most fundamental aspect of fighting is standing (stances). So if anyone here has ever had any experience teaching, training with or have even ever observed martial arts training with mobility challenged students, I would really appreciate any advice.

My current thoughts are:
+ Everything will have to be very internal as this person's disability means that have very little muscle mass. The student will need to rely purely on biomechanics and not strength. So atm I think most of what I'll be teaching will be modified Taiji (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEbupVWZ6mk) w/ some Aikido.
+ I will need to teach him breakfalling techniques quite early. Usually breakfalling is a technique I teach later... as most instructors will tell you, you do NOT ever want to fight from the ground. But given this student's condition, he would most likely end up on the ground and have to defend himself from there. Standing and fighting just isn't an option for him.
+ I will need to teach him self-defensive techniques from a sitting position (e.g. Suwariwaza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRoYyF2lCgY)), but it would have to be modified since the student cannot use his legs.

...I'm honestly not entirely sure how I'm going to modify these techniques. I suspect it will have to be trial and error. :/

[Bartrim]

Maybe you could concentrate on strike techniques Gok. We spent all of our last lesson doing strikes. Our white belt kata is all upper body technique which is kinda hard to do after 80 pushups:o(yeah I'm out of shape)

[GoktimusPrime]

This student has very little muscle mass - he gets exhausted just from handwriting (he has aides who help him in class; often taking over the task of handwriting when he is too fatigued to continue). As such, I think doing external techniques wouldn't be terribly practical for him. Even if he did learn how to strike, I doubt he'd be able to deliver them with sufficient strength to be able to use them in a practical self-defence situation. And unfortunately he has been a victim of unprovoked bullying before. :( (sadly there are people out who are willing to attack even wheelchair-bound victims (http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/youth-charged-over-attack-on-wheelchairbound-canadian-at-sydney-station-20100310-pwdz.html) :mad:)

So I need to think of something that he can physically do given his disability, and can hopefully work in a self-defence situation. Teaching this student is definitely going to be a challenge as I'm going to have to disregard the single most core feature of fighting -- stances. As I once heard a Karate teacher say, "If your stance is wrong, all your Karate is wrong." - and this is something that I'd wholeheartedly agree with. Unfortunately you just cannot apply this principle with someone who physically cannot stand. So it flies against everything I've learnt and know about martial arts - and I'll have to teach him the one thing I always tell my other students not to do -- leading with their hands!

So far my ideas are:
+ Modified Silk-Reeling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzDsAzbsyH4). Silk-reeling is a basic technique I teach to all of my students anyway.
+ Modified Suwari-waza (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHSKdCmRAGc).
+ Modified Push Hands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkyq9FljlG8)

...any other ideas are welcome, but due to the student's condition external techniques like striking aren't really possible. As such all my ideas atm are confined to more internal techniques.

[Bartrim]

Why don't you talk to the student and ask what they hope to gain from the class

[GoktimusPrime]

The sport is specifically called "Self Defence." This was done intentionally so that there can be no confusion about our objective. Also, this student has told me before in the past that he wants to learn self defence (again, he specifically said "self defence" and not "martial arts").

[GoktimusPrime]

Today I spoke to someone who is a senior ranking martial artist who also has a history of getting in trouble with authorities for aggressive violent behaviour. People like this should either never be taught martial arts, or if they are, should only be taught passive defensive techniques. Unfortunately this is not the case -- this person's style is external and I believe he has been taught aggressive, offensive techniques. (-_-) This is an all too common occurrence... teachers just teach their students so long as they pay their fees and attend classes. A responsible instructor should either refuse to teach aggressive students or modify the content that they teach to them so that the techniques cannot be used to attack others.

*deep.sigh* http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/ngsmoov_facepalmmegatron.jpg

[Bartrim]

Today I spoke to someone who is a senior ranking martial artist who also has a history of getting in trouble with authorities for aggressive violent behaviour. People like this should either never be taught martial arts, or if they are, should only be taught passive defensive techniques. Unfortunately this is not the case -- this person's style is external and I believe he has been taught aggressive, offensive techniques. (-_-) This is an all too common occurrence... teachers just teach their students so long as they pay their fees and attend classes. A responsible instructor should either refuse to teach aggressive students or modify the content that they teach to them so that the techniques cannot be used to attack others.

*deep.sigh* http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/ngsmoov_facepalmmegatron.jpg

That was the first thing I learnt. Our whole techniques are based on a defensive point of view. Our instructor actually made a humourus/ interesting point. If someone wants to rob you of your mobile phone. Don't fight them, let them take it as it'll be obsolete in 6 months anyway:D

[GoktimusPrime]

well yeah - no material possession is worth fighting for. Except maybe Time Warrior.

Self defence techniques are learnt in situations like:
+ Someone is obstructing your nearest point of exit and you need to get through/around them in order to escape.
+ Someone has already launched an attack on you without making any demands (e.g. surprise attack). Like it or not, the fight has already started and you need to react.

Unfortunately we have certain members of our society who start fights unprovoked just because they can (typically angry people with low self-esteem who feel like randomly lashing out at strangers).

[klystron]

There is no first strike in karate.

[GoktimusPrime]

Nice one. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

i disagree with some of what has been said. to me defensive tech is blocking,parry,covering and footwork. unless u have a clear escape path you normaly have to fight back. attacking techniques such as strikes, grabs,chokes,throws are essential. why wait to teach a student this, surely they are better off building a solid well balanced foundation to begin with. pre emptive striking can also be neessary at times.this does not mean i agree with starting fights as the person you refer to though Gok.
apologies too as i am using a t-hub to write this qnd it takes ages and wish i could type more but frustrating thing this touch pad is lol.

[GoktimusPrime]

It all depends on the situation. Legally we're entitled to use reasonable force in self defence - so if an attacker is presenting us with sufficient force, then we can retaliate with more aggressive techniques such as striking. I don't think anyone is saying that attacking and striking are necessarily wrong or bad.

Funakoshi said there is no first strike which means that a Karateka shouldn't be making the first attack. Now remember that you don't need to wait to be hit in order to defend yourself. The law defines assault as any act which makes you fear for your safety. The following scenarios also legally count as assault which would entitle you to act in self-defence:
+ Credible verbal threats. e.g. if someone says, "I'm gonna f***ing smash you!" then you can strike. They already verbally attacked your first, so your strike really isn't a "first" strike.
+ Violent/hostile/aggressive gesture or body language. e.g. if a person raises a fist at you or presents a weapon in a threatening manner then you are entitled to pre-emptively engage in self defence. Even if a person looks like they're about to throw a strike (e.g. chamber a punch) then you can strike.
...but in all of these scenarios, it's not you who's the instigator. You can pre-emptively react to an attack, but not initiate the attack - and I believe that's what Funakoshi meant by a "first strike".

Also there are many ways to _passively_ attack and strike that are less aggressive and devastating. For example, if someone is obstructing your escape path you can grapple an incoming strike and move them out of the way so that you can run away. You don't _have_ to hit them. Depends on the situation of course.

But my earlier point - and it's a point I've made before - is that teachers need to be selective in terms of what techniques they teach to who... and particularly be careful in avoiding teaching more aggressive techniques to people with an aggressive disposition (i.e. someone who's inclined to be a thug or bully). A morally responsible instructor should feel quite concerned if any of his/her students were to use techniques taught by them to go around attacking people. Unfortunately it seems that some instructors don't seem to care -- just as long as their student turns up to lessons, pays their fees and behaves at the Dojo then it's all good. They're not too concerned about their behaviour outside of the Dojo (where it matters). Some instructors are just as bad. I once met an instructor who worked as a bouncer and he was suspending from bouncing for a period of time because he had used excessive force in dealing with clients. :/

IMO people with such dispositions should NOT be taught aggressive martial arts techniques. If an instructor becomes aware that a student of theirs has such a disposition, then they should either:
+ Stop teaching them any more aggressive techniques (either solely revise techniques already learnt or just expel them - depending on the situation)
+ Teach them passive defensive techniques.

A lot of internal martial arts specialise in passive techniques, and some like Aikido (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM) almost exclusively uses defensive techniques -- Aikido has almost no attacking moves. Aikido (as well as Jujutsu) evolved from Taijutsu which was used by Samurai in situations where they were unable to draw their sword (e.g. caught by surprise or in the presence of a Lord (where drawing one's weapon was illegal and redeemable by honourable Seppuku (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku)).

[Hot Rodimus]

Sorry Gok but I read your posts in this thread and I can't help but think your someone who reads a little bit too much into the theory of things and idolises the 'old masters'.
In reality it is better to practise simple techniques as your fine motor skills rapidly get thrown out the window and all your fancy techniques that have been practised with a compliant partner (most schools are guilty of this as are most demonstrations on youtube and ones shown in this thread) do not work.
You were reluctant to answer if you had ever been in a real fight earlier, if you have you will know this to be true, hence why a lot of 'martial artists' or 'blackbelts' get snotted in a real fight. They have either never been exposed to real violence before or not trained for it or they are ineffectual as there perfectly practised roundhouse punch or spinning dragon magic kick with no shadow didn't turn into the fight stopper like it did in the dojo/kwoon.
A lot of what you type has sound principles as I have read a lot of this before but instead of taking other peoples words as gospel broaden your horizons and expose yourself to other styles and training so you can actually comment on it from experience. You bag out some styles for being 'sport' styles etc but in reality a lot of these guys who train in these styles are better equiped for a real fight than you and your traditional stylist practitioners.
Just wondering how long you have been training for?
Considering you can spar with your arms tied behind your back and with a blindfold you must be impressive, regardless of wether it is with white belts or not....though then again if I was a white belt again (something which has been the case many times over the years as I expose myself to different styles) I would have found this rather insulting.
Looking forward to chatting with you about this.

[Bartrim]

This is an interesting point that Hot Rodimus makes. When I first looked into starting martial arts I really wanted to learn one specific discipline, but due to lack of schools in Ulladulla I had to study KRMAS. I was a little bit hesitant at first as although it is mainly a type of karate (I'm not sure of what style yet as I haven't asked my instructor) it also incorporates other disciplines. Now after going for 6 weeks this is now my preference as it is a very practical system that we learn. My instructor demonstrated this last night. He got mysef and several other late 20's-early 30's in the class who have had some real fight experience. (By real I mean out a pub real) He then gave us a variety of (training) weapons and asked as to attack as best we could. I gave my instructor every thing I had and he took me out with ease, sorta embarresed that I squealed like a girl too:o

[Hot Rodimus]

Bartrim thanks as you sort of reinforce one of the points I was making.
No one style covers everything, there are great striking arts, great grappling arts and great weapon styles but no one particular style contains everything.
While it is a sport MMA has really put it into the spotlight for martial artists that striking and grappling skills are necessary. Don't believe me? hop on youtube or search the net for real fight footage, you will almost always see that a real fight contains elements of both striking and grappling.
Not all schools can offer a syllabus that incorporates grappling and striking techniques especially if they are more 'traditional' schools so if you have the time join another school that does offer the component that is missing.
But the most important thing is how do you train your techniques? If it is with compliant partners and bouncy bouncy touch sparring (think NAS tournaments, and taekwondo to generalise) then you are wasting your time. Practising technique with non compliant partners and Pad work/bag work and controlled sparring with contact is essential....... or you could just do Tai Chi instead and tell everyone you are a martial artist lol

Good to hear you are training Bartrim, your style actually sounds interesting would love to hear more about it. I read in an earlier post about you being nervous before starting, happens to me too every time I try a new school. I am starting boxing at a well known gym next week, I know how to box and have done a fair bit of Muay Thai but I still get a butterfly in the tummy feeling lol.But you have done the hardest part I reckon which is the initial commitment. Good work!

[Hot Rodimus]

Just had a look at your style Bartrim on this website
http://www.krmas.com.au/karate.html

I have never heard of it before but looks pretty good to me mate. The Karate they teach is freestyle karate from the sounds of it which can be a very good system. Just depends on what elements are incorporated from each style and how it is trained.

If they also teach some of the other styles like Muay Thai and MMA at the location you train at I think you should try those out too after you feel comfortable with the Karate and have a good base set of skills.

[Bartrim]

Thanks Hot Rodimus. It is a great style and I really enjoy it. In the 6 weeks I've been going we have done all sorts of striking (punching, knees, kicking) and last night we did hip throws. Again I like how practical it is. While we learn techniques we partner up with someone our own size, but once we learn the techniques we switch partners around to learn about leverage and throwing people of different shapes and sizes. I also questioned my sensei last night because he was explaining about how all the moves in our kata including the prep are actual fighting moves. One movement we do is an eye gouge. I questioned the honour of using an eye gouge. He told me that while it wasn't honourable KRMAS concentrates on practicality and if you ever get into a situation where you need to use the techniques chances are your opponent wont exactly to be concerned with honourable fighting techniques.

[Hot Rodimus]

sounds good Bartrim, an instructor who will explain things like yours does is a good sign also if you question things your instructor should be able to explain the principles or reasoning behind it instead of not knowing or saying something like "that is how the masters did it".

Totally agree with using things like eye gouges not that I ever have. If you train to use it effectively then it can be a great weapon to have in your arsenal. It is not something I have trained much to do, we did learn them when I did wing chun years ago but to me it was hard to train as I prefer other strikes. He is spot on the money about honour having nothing to do with it too, honour really has nothing to do with fighting once the actual fight begins.

Sounds like you have got a good school, thank god you didn't have a GKR dojo near you, those guys are almost everywhere and are the Amway of Martial Arts....but I better not get started on that lol.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sorry Gok but I read your posts in this thread and I can't help but think your someone who reads a little bit too much into the theory of things and idolises the 'old masters'.
I have a preference for traditional styles for reasons I've mentioned before.


In reality it is better to practise simple techniques as your fine motor skills rapidly get thrown out the window and all your fancy techniques that have been practised with a compliant partner (most schools are guilty of this as are most demonstrations on youtube and ones shown in this thread) do not work.
I absolutely agree.

The difference between training and a real fight is fear. There is no fear in training because you know you're in a safe environment. And you _will_ be scared in a real fight (unless you're incredibly brave or stupid, and Aristotle did imply that there's little difference between the two ;)). And studies show that one thing that occurs when you're afraid is that you LOSE your fine motor skills. Hence why learning fine motor skills for self defence is bollocks. However studies also show that gross motor skills are optimised when you're afraid; so it makes more sense to learn techniques that work on gross motor skills instead.

So I'm in complete agreement with you there.


You were reluctant to answer if you had ever been in a real fight earlier, if you have you will know this to be true, hence why a lot of 'martial artists' or 'blackbelts' get snotted in a real fight. They have either never been exposed to real violence before or not trained for it or they are ineffectual as there perfectly practised roundhouse punch or spinning dragon magic kick with no shadow didn't turn into the fight stopper like it did in the dojo/kwoon.
90% of a fight is psychological and I find a lot of competent fighters actually avoid getting into fights rather than experiencing them. I agree that a lot of well trained martial artists _do_ get creamed in real fights. This would be, as you've implied, due to ineffectual training.


A lot of what you type has sound principles as I have read a lot of this before but instead of taking other peoples words as gospel broaden your horizons and expose yourself to other styles and training so you can actually comment on it from experience. You bag out some styles for being 'sport' styles etc but in reality a lot of these guys who train in these styles are better equiped for a real fight than you and your traditional stylist practitioners.
I don't think I ever "bagged" out sport styles. I simply said that I'm skeptical for reasons that I've mentioned before.

But I have repeatedly said time and time again that ultimately the best style is the style that WORKS for you - even if it's a sport style. And I have also said that sometimes a practitioner of a sport style CAN be a better fighter than someone from a more traditional background.

A classic example would be Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee. Mohammed Ali practised modern boxing, what I consider to be a sport style. Bruce Lee's background was in Kung Fu and he developed Jeet Kune Do, what might be considered to be traditional. But if you put Mohammed Ali and Bruce Lee - in their prime - in a cage fight, I would put my money on Mohammed Ali.

Mohammed Ali was a bloody fantastic fighter who actually understood and executed the concepts of traditional martial arts BETTER than a lot of traditionalists; i.e. "float like a butterfly sting like a bee" = you need to be hard and soft = yin and yang. For all of Bruce Lee's training in traditional styles he was - at best - a mediocre fighter.

So while I have a preference for traditional styles, please don't think that it means that I therefore disregard anyone who practises sport styles.

I've said this before too - the important question is NOT "what style do you do?" but "Can you fight?"


Just wondering how long you have been training for?
Considering you can spar with your arms tied behind your back and with a blindfold you must be impressive,
No, I've never said I was impressive. I just happened to be sparring against a very ineffectual opponent at the time.


But the most important thing is how do you train your techniques? If it is with compliant partners and bouncy bouncy touch sparring (think NAS tournaments, and taekwondo to generalise) then you are wasting your time. Practising technique with non compliant partners and Pad work/bag work and controlled sparring with contact is essential.......
Absolutely agree. I dislike training with overly compliant partners. Your partner needs to compliant enough to keep your training safe - but not too compliant that they're letting you win or not providing a realistic challenge.


or you could just do Tai Chi instead and tell everyone you are a martial artist lol
That's an unfair generalisation.

First of all, there are many styles of Tai Chi - some are usable in fighting, some aren't. Secondly, even with the fighting styles of Tai Chi - you have competent practitioners and not so competent practitioners.

As someone once said to me, "The individual matters more than the style."

[Hot Rodimus]

I am confused Gok, or it could be my ignorance of Tai Chi, I have heard of a few styles but never really seen much more than people practising flowerery moves in the air.
How is this going to be of use? Yes most of the moves performed in Tai Chi are actual combative techniques and if you really analyse them you can find brutal techniques that eyegouge twist necks etc but it lacks real training methodologies
I do believe that any style trained in the 'right way' can work or be adapted to work in real fight situations. I am not saying your wrong but I have never seen tai chi practitioners hit pads or spar etc. I do profess ignorance when it comes to Tai Chi but I would be suprised if it was effective.

I would also be interested if anyone has clips off youtube of martial arts working in real fights. Whenever I have seen footage of traditional martial artists spar with hard contact or get in a real fight it always ends up looking like kick boxing or boxing.

I am probably coming across as arrogant or a hater of traditional styles ( I have trained in Shito Ryu Karate,Wing Chun, Goju Karate in the past and had a great time doing so.). I don't intend for this to happen but from my real life experiences my opinions differ greatly from what has been posted by others and as this is a 'forum' I thought I would throw my two cents in.

[Hot Rodimus]

How long have you been training Gok?

[GoktimusPrime]

Tai Chi works like many other internal styles of martial arts (e.g. Aikido, Jujutsu, Baguazhang etc.) in that it relies more on principles of biomechanics for fighting rather than brute strength. Do not be deceived by the "flowery moves" into thinking that Tai Chi can't be an effective fighting form - for example there's one move in Chen Taiji where you grab your opponent's scrotum then proceed to "start the lawnmower" as you tear it off and simultaneously deliver a punch to the face.

But keep in mind:
1/ Not all styles of Tai Chi can be used for fighting. Some styles are purely for health. The main fighting forms of Tai Chi (also spelt "Taiji") are Chen, Wu and Yang. So if you want to learn more about fighting Tai Chi, I would recommend investigating those styles.
2/ Not everyone learns Tai Chi for self defence - even a lot of people who practice the fighting styles do so for health purposes.
3/ One weakness I see in a lot of Tai Chi training is that they start their exercises already in contact. For example one typical form of practice is an exercise called "push hands" and people usually start in contact before pushing against each other. The problem with this of course is that in a real fight, your attacker isn't going to be so compliant as to let you make contact with them first before you both start pushing against each other. It's better to practice what I call "sticking" (others may call it "searching") in order to locate your opponent's limbs and then you can commence pushing. The problem with the way a lot of people practice push hands is that they don't practice 'sticking' first. So the problem is - as you've pointed out before - overcompliant partners in training. :(

But this doesn't mean the techniques are flawed or the style is weak... it's a training issue.


I have trained in Shito Ryu Karate,Wing Chun, Goju Karate in the past and had a great time doing so
I'm ignorant about Shitoryu, but I've tried a bit of Wing Chun and Goju. I like the way Wing Chun penetrates an opponent's defences and I like the tight defensive blocks of Goju. :)


How long have you been training Gok?
A few years - but I very badly take massively long breaks between training which is slack and it's something I'm working on changing (long story - PM me if you really want to know more).

In terms of my competency, I'm by no means an advanced fighter. I would optimistically describe myself as being an 'intermediate' fighter - i.e. better than a novice, but definitely NOT an expert.

[GoktimusPrime]

While we learn techniques we partner up with someone our own size, but once we learn the techniques we switch partners around to learn about leverage and throwing people of different shapes and sizes.
That's good. It's good to always practice with different people, not just because of different size but also different speed, tempo etc. Even in the same style/school everyone fights differently; I find fighting forms are like handwriting - it's unique to each individual and no two are exactly identical. Having two people from the same school trained in the same style is like watching two people write the same text in the same language... but the actual handwriting itself is uniquely distinct.


I also questioned my sensei last night because he was explaining about how all the moves in our kata including the prep are actual fighting moves. One movement we do is an eye gouge. I questioned the honour of using an eye gouge. He told me that while it wasn't honourable KRMAS concentrates on practicality and if you ever get into a situation where you need to use the techniques chances are your opponent wont exactly to be concerned with honourable fighting techniques.
Very true.

And I suppose this is where some of my skepticism about sport fighting comes from because when you fight as a sport you are fighting within set conditions and set rules; whereas when training to fight for self defence we should never assume that anything will be set. For example one of the single most common mistakes I experience with sport fighters is that they often leave their groin exposed, and I've even met some sport fighters who outright REFUSE to guard their groin (instead they just demand that I don't attack there) - insisting that it's a "dog" move. Of course it's a dog move... but as your sensei says, we should never assume that our opponent carries a sense of honour that prevents them from using cheap moves.

My question about the eye gouge would be that it seems to me to be more of a fine motor skill technique, which as Hot Rodimus pointed out before, is impractical in a real fight where you're scared poopless. Furthermore, I've heard people say that eye gouging is overrated as even dogs will continue fighting with eyes bitten out. But I suppose it all depends on the exact scenario and situation too... <shrugs>


I am probably coming across as arrogant or a hater of traditional styles.....I don't intend for this to happen
I'm glad you cleared it up. :) And I'm sure I sometimes come across as an arrogant hater of modern styles too - which isn't my intention either.


but from my real life experiences my opinions differ greatly from what has been posted by others and as this is a 'forum' I thought I would throw my two cents in.
We're all entitled to our own preferences and opinions. You're right about me having a greater theoretical knowledge of martial arts than a practical one though. :( I recognise this as a weakness of mine and I do definitely plan on changing this.

If there's anyone in Western Sydney willing to get together on a casual basis for some friendly training, I'd be up for it. I have all kinds of equipment to keep it safe. All styles and levels of experience welcome of course... we are all students of the martial arts. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

having boxed and done muay thai before and sparred against those guys I would still back one of these guys in a street fight over any traditional stylist, especially if both have only been training for a short amount of time.
Having trained in traditional and 'sport' styles I have pretty much moved on to only being interested in training in sport styles... I will throw judo in as being a sport style too lol.
Ask yourself, which styles are respected world wide for striking? muay thai and boxing. Grappling - Brazilian Ju jitsu and judo most likely, both very much sporting styles. What makes them effective? All of them are relatively simple in their approach and techniques but most importantly they are all trained in a manner that prepares students for what a real fight is like.
If you train in martial arts, ask yourself when was the last time you got hit in class? Sure most people learn this stuff so they don't get hit but if you have never been hit your never going to know how to not get hit or what to do when it does happen.
Once again I don't intend to put down traditional styles as they do have a lot going for them but for a lot of them to advertise they offer 'self defence' is a joke and it really cause for false advertising claims lol

[Bartrim]

My question about the eye gouge would be that it seems to me to be more of a fine motor skill technique, which as Hot Rodimus pointed out before, is impractical in a real fight where you're scared poopless. Furthermore, I've heard people say that eye gouging is overrated as even dogs will continue fighting with eyes bitten out. But I suppose it all depends on the exact scenario and situation too... <shrugs>



The eye gouge in our Kata comes after a back elbow. I believe it is in only in there because our arms extend completely in the opposite direction in that movement and they want us to show martial intent.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ask yourself, which styles are respected world wide for striking?
I think that entirely depends on which people you ask and which circle you're looking at.


muay thai and boxing. Grappling - Brazilian Ju jitsu and judo most likely, both very much sporting styles. What makes them effective? All of them are relatively simple in their approach and techniques but most importantly they are all trained in a manner that prepares students for what a real fight is like.
It depends on the training. And this applies to both all martial arts - sport or traditional.

In my experience a lot of muay thai fighters that I've sparred with are just shockingly POOR at defending their genitals and often hitting them in the groin is just too easy. And as I said in my last post, I've come across some (not all) sport fighters who, instead of thinking, "Gee, I need to keep that area guarded," just outrightly _refuse_ to do so and instead just tell me not to attack there (i.e. they're asking me to be a compliant partner, which as you pointed out is a training flaw).

Of course traditional styles work. They were forged in war across countless battles fought before the advent of the machine gun. The evolution of traditional martial arts is a lot like Darwin's evolution by natural selection - survival of the fittest. Hundreds of years ago if you went to war trained with an ineffective martial art you would be quickly killed in battle. Simple as that. If a traditional style can equip someone to defend themselves against an armed enemy combatant whose sole preoccupation in battle is to kill you quickly (so they can move on and kill your comrades and win the war), then surely it can work in modern civilian street self defence.

Scientifically speaking in order to demonstrate something you need to be able to consistently repeat a result over and over and over again right? If we look at the pre-machine gun history of martial arts... that's your continual repetition and we can see consistent results. Techniques that survived have done so because they've repeatedly worked. If we take sport martial arts and observe the volume of people around the world who train in it versus the number of people who actually become good enough to win tournaments and be considered exceptional fighters, I'd argue that those exceptional fighters would be a selective portion (arguably a minority?) of all people who practice sport martial arts. YES - you can also make the same conclusion about traditional martial arts, I will accept this - and I would say that this demonstrates the decline in the quality of traditional martial artists (note I said artists, not art).

Theoretically speaking, if we could wave a magic wand and undo the invention of the machine gun, then teach different martial arts to various armies of the world (say for example if the Australian army learnt a sport style and the North Korean army learnt a traditional style etc.) and then had a world war -- THEN we could see how well the styles and practitioners would fare! Of course this is impossible.

I'm not to say that learning a traditional martial art is an instant guarantee that you will be an effective fighter. It all depends on the training, as well as other factors like teacher competency and student competency. The best martial art will still fail at the hands of an incompetent practitioner. It's like say taking a really well made car and letting a bad driver drive it - then they smash the car. Do you blame the car or the driver?


If you train in martial arts, ask yourself when was the last time you got hit in class? Sure most people learn this stuff so they don't get hit but if you have never been hit your never going to know how to not get hit or what to do when it does happen.
Legally you're not meant to get hit in class. A martial arts instructor has the same legal duty of care as a school teacher and is lawfully bound to maintain student safety. Students can and do take legal action if injury occurs were reasonable means have not been taken to ensure student safety and/or treat injury if it occurs. I'm aware that a lot of martial arts teachers do ignore these regulations - and as many instructors have told me, it's a major factor as to why the insurance premiums for instructors keep going up every year... a cost which is then passed onto students with increasing fees.

Now I do agree that people do need to be conditioned to take hits... but there are safer and more legal ways to do this beyond allowing students to actually hit each other. Because if simply getting hit was enough, then just smack yourself with a hammer all over every day and you should be invincible. Traditional martial arts use body hardening conditioning exercises like arm knocking and leg knocking. I've seen this done in Goju Karate so perhaps you've experienced it. Others exercises like Pigua also involve striking yourselves in places like the body just to condition it to being hit. The difference between this and allowing yourself to be hit is that you can control the degree of how hard or soft you want to be hit. The idea is to start of with gentle bumping then gradually increase the severity as your tolerance improves. It's the same with any kind of conditioning -- if I started doing weights for the first time I wouldn't jump onto 100kg dumbells straight away. You start with something light first then gradually lift heavier weights as you get stronger.

I visited a Goju Karate Dojo in Japan and this black belt asked me to punch him in his stomach as hard as I could as many times as I wanted. I belted away as his gut and he didn't flinch! This was obviously done through gradual conditioning. I know that Seido Karate practitioners do little punches over their body as they do sit-ups.

Some sport martial arts and non-martial art sports have stuff which conditions endurance too. Practitioners of any art that involves throwing/falling like Aikido, Jujutsu, Judo etc. are naturally conditioned because their bodies are frequently hitting the mat. Anyone who plays a sport that involves tackling (e.g. rugby) have good endurance too for obvious reasons.

So there are ways of conditioning the body to endure hits in a safer and more legal way beyond just hitting people. :)


Once again I don't intend to put down traditional styles as they do have a lot going for them but for a lot of them to advertise they offer 'self defence' is a joke and it really cause for false advertising claims lol
You know what - the majority of martial arts schools I come across - traditional, sport or otherwise - do not teach proper self defence. And it's simply because the training is wrong.

If traditional martial arts are unworkable, then what the hell did people do in battle for the last several centuries and millenia of human conflict?? You think the Spartans just stood in front of the Persians and hurled "Yo Momma" insults? Or that the Romans Legion just carried weapons for the fun of it?? It's not as if it's only been in recent times that effective martial arts were suddenly invented and anything before it didn't work.

Just because a lot of people don't know how to use traditional martial arts properly doesn't mean they don't work. Imagine if you found a group of children with Transformer toys, and most of them didn't know how to transform them properly. Does it mean that all Transformer toys are crap and poorly designed? Not necessarily... it could just be a group of kids who don't know how to play with them properly

[GoktimusPrime]

My last post was written in a rush, so it probably comes off as being more defensive than it ought to be. So here's a hopefully more measured response... ;)


having boxed and done muay thai before and sparred against those guys I would still back one of these guys in a street fight over any traditional stylist, especially if both have only been training for a short amount of time.
That's too much of a generalisation for me. There are too many variable factors. If I had to make a bet I'd look at both fighters individually and decide which one I thought was better. Even though I have a preference for traditional arts, if I thought the sport fighter was better I'd back the sport fighter. As in the hypothetical Mohammed Ali (sport fighter) vs Bruce Lee (traditional fighter) scenario, I would definitely put my money on Ali, not Lee.


Having trained in traditional and 'sport' styles I have pretty much moved on to only being interested in training in sport styles... I will throw judo in as being a sport style too lol.
I can accept that. You've tried both traditional and sport styles and find sport styles work better for you. That's great - as I always say, do the style that works for you. For me I've tried both traditional and sport styles too and my interest is primarily in traditional styles cos I find that works for me. But I would never recommend that you abandon doing sport styles and change to traditional if traditional doesn't work for you.


Once again I don't intend to put down traditional styles as they do have a lot going for them but for a lot of them to advertise they offer 'self defence' is a joke and it really cause for false advertising claims lol
As I said in my last post, this is a widespread problem among all martial art schools - regardless of being traditional or sport oriented. In my last post I talked about my experience with sport fighters with poor groin defence - but to be fair, I've also encountered traditional fighters with poor groin defence too.

I once sparred with some Karate fighters - and I was once sparring with this black belt 3rd Dan, and during the skirmish I grabbed his groin expecting him to be wearing a cup (as was the regulations of this Dojo). He wasn't. As soon as I felt his scrotum in my hand I immediately released and profusely apologised - he said it was okay as I had "let go just in time" and we both had a good laugh about it later. But I find the difference between this guy and those Muay Thai fighters mentioned in my last post is that the Karate fighter admitted that it was his fault for leaving his groin open and knew that he simply needs to keep his groin better covered. In other words, he was willing to learn from his mistake.

The muay thai fighters I sparred with vehemently refused to accept the suggestion that they should protect their groins. The next time I came to spar with them I actually used my own money to purchase an external groin guard (because they didn't have any guards of their own) and brought it along to the school and offered it to my partner for use in sparring. My partner angrily threw the guard away and stormed away from me complaining about how people can't attack the groin because it's an illegal target in competitions. I was told that I either had to guarantee not to attack the groin otherwise I was disallowed from sparring.

So I was given 2 choices:
A/ Become a more compliant partner, or...
B/ Leave

I went with option B. I have no hard feelings against those sport fighters, but if they expect me to become a more compliant partner and lower my standards, then it's just a waste of time for me.

[Hot Rodimus]

on the t hub again so hard to type but i think u misunderstood me gok. by getting hit in class i did not mean kids getting snotted. look at boxing, muay thai and mma classes. use protective equipment....unless they are meat heads lol. this still allows reasonable contact to be made without injury and law suits. students usually arent thrown in the deep end either.

i didn,t say traditional martial arts are ineffective, i said in an earlier post that any style can be made to work if trained right, which is my point. it is pretty fair to say alot of traditional schools dont train in a way that prepares students for real violence. and yes some sport styles are guilty of this to but it would be a minority as their very nature dictates students learn to hit properly, get hit and lots of hard sparring.

i agree that traditional styles would have been very effective back in the day but few if any train like they did back then. they werent worried about law suits from students they were worr about dieing and the training would have been gruelling. now with the commercialisation of martial arts and it becomming a busiess ppl are more likely to make things easier to retain students and boost revenue but preach they teach the methods of old.

[Hot Rodimus]

my preference for sport styles comes from the simple techniques and the limited number of them. they translate to a real fight situation easily and the practitioner is used to actually getting hit and aally hitting back instead of pulling punches or punching air. it is very easy to become conditioned to pull your punches and have it translate to real life.
the reason i would back a noob sport fighter over traditional stylist is that 'simplistic' styles like boxing or muay thai allow the practitioner to reach a reasonable level of proficency in a relatively short time compared to most traditional styles as they tend to be more complex which includes wing chun which one of the reasons it was developed was the other styles at the time took too long to become proficient in them.
once again not knocking trad styles just explaining my reasons why i typed what i did, and yeah u r right in that a major part of what determines the outcome is the person themselves and not the style but i firmly believe the other part how u trained.

[GoktimusPrime]

i didn,t say traditional martial arts are ineffective, i said in an earlier post that any style can be made to work if trained right, which is my point. it is pretty fair to say alot of traditional schools dont train in a way that prepares students for real violence. and yes some sport styles are guilty of this to but it would be a minority as their very nature dictates students learn to hit properly, get hit and lots of hard sparring.
That may be in your observation but not in mine. In my observation I find more traditional schools better train their students for actual fighting compared to sport fighting schools which seem more oriented at scoring points and impressing judges. But that's just my observation.

I think it's fair to say that there are plenty of good and bad schools of both traditional and sporting sorts, and it seems that you've happened to come across more good sport schools and I've happened to come across more good traditional schools. The ratio between good and bad traditional and sport schools may vary depending on where you live. For example when I was in China I travelled to Foshan, a place reknowned for producing famous Kung Fu practitioners like Yip Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yip_Man) and Huang Feihong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huang_Fei_Hong) - and I observed a demonstration at a school there... and it was just rubbish. The demonstration was supposed to be Hongjia Kung Fu, but instead of looking like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBHS_aLIRas) it looked like this:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/China/china_foshan_wushu9a.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/China/china_foshan_wushu9.jpg

...yeah, cos that's gonna be really useful in a fight... </sarcasm>
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/ngsmoov_facepalmconvoy.jpg


i agree that traditional styles would have been very effective back in the day but few if any train like they did back then. they werent worried about law suits from students they were worr about dieing and the training would have been gruelling.
Teaching methods have changed, but that's not always a bad thing. You're right about training being far more gruelling in the old days - especially in temples like Shaolin. Cos when you're a full time celebate monk you have NO life outside the temple. But for people with commitments to family, study, work etc., such sadistic methods of training just aren't practical in the modern age. Also - in places like the Shaolin Temple, the monks also spend a lot of time healing each other as well.

A lot of modern age equipment and training techniques can be used quite effectively in traditional training... like velcro strap-on wrist/ankle weights or the incorporation of plyometrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plyometrics) etc. Martial arts - especially the external styles - have always had plyometric movements; but modern sport science has given us a better understanding of how it works and how to better train in it.


now with the commercialisation of martial arts and it becomming a busiess ppl are more likely to make things easier to retain students and boost revenue but preach they teach the methods of old.
Yeah, these are the "McDojos" that's been discussed before. (-_-) And ya know, that Kung Fu demonstration I saw in China was commercialised too... it was all acrobatic showmanship to attract tourists. But I'm sure you can appreciate that a commercialised martial art is not exactly an authentic representation of that art.

[Hot Rodimus]

we are going to agree to disagree I think Gok. You love traditional styles and the mystery and mysticism and smoke and mirrors that surround them. I have come to appreciate more realistic methods of protecting myself based on real life experiences.
What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.
What styles do these guys train in? Not traiditonal arts, even Machido who states he does Karate doesn't actually do Karate even though he markets it like that for his family business.
How come we have never seen any traditional stylists do well in them?
I am sure you have an answer for this.
Anyway I am tired of going round in circles, I never intended this to be a traidtional vs sport/modern arguement, merely that you should base your opinions on many different experiences instead of theory and reciting thousands of words of text that I have already read before in other media.
But in all honesty I wish you good luck with your training, I admire anyone who gets off their but and trains, I also hope that if you ever have to protect yourself or a loved one your training will be of use (though I pray that never eventuates, for you or anyone else here).

[GoktimusPrime]

we are going to agree to disagree I think Gok. You love traditional styles and the mystery and mysticism and smoke and mirrors that surround them. I have come to appreciate more realistic methods of protecting myself based on real life experiences.
But I've REPEATEDLY harped on about how much I hate the "mysticism" and "smoke and mirrors" as well as unrealistic methods in martial arts. And yes, there are a lot of traditionalists who go on about the mysticism and stuff, and I don't agree with their approach at all.

Mind you, it doesn't necessarily mean that the "mystical" explanations are 'wrong'... sometimes they can be when people get a bit too deep into the spiritualism. You have to understand that a lot of ancient literature on martial arts was written before the advent of modern science. I prefer to think of martial arts in modern scientific terms.

e.g.
external "chi" = biomechanics and principles of physics (e.g. leverage, acceleration, force, torque etc.)
internal "chi" = metabolism (e.g. adenine triphosphate, mitochondria, adrenaline etc.)

A lot of these mystical terms are based on the ancient Asian understanding of medicine and science, for example modern medicine sees the human body as a series of systems whereas Chinese medicine divides into meridians. Chinese medicine may be more holistic but it's not necessarily outright incorrect. Asian medicine tends deal with looking after overall wellbeing whereas modern Western medicine looks at treating symptoms and curing diseases when they occur.


What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.
Or perhaps the style that works for you. If I train in a traditional style and it _works_ for me in a fight... then why tell me not to use it? Likewise if someone did a sport style and it works for them, then what right does anyone have to tell them to not do it?? I wouldn't.


How come we have never seen any traditional stylists do well in them?
I am sure you have an answer for this.
You do know that traditional martial arts - in their authentic form - aren't used in competitions right? Only modified martial arts are used in competitions.


Anyway I am tired of going round in circles, I never intended this to be a traidtional vs sport/modern arguement, merely that you should base your opinions on many different experiences instead of theory and reciting thousands of words of text that I have already read before in other media.
We've always tried to be tolerant of different styles on this thread - hence why I always say that the best style is that one that works for you. I've said this over and over again to try and be inclusive all all styles and forms of martial arts.

While I have a personal preference for traditional arts, it doesn't mean that therefore I will blindly state that sport styles cannot work, because clearly modern arts have produced some good fighters such as Mohammed Ali, Cung Le and of course, Chuck Norris. Likewise a person who has a strong personal preference for sport styles ought not go around putting down traditional arts either, because the traditional arts have produced good fighters too, such as Huang Feihong, Huo Yuanjia, Miyamoto Musashi, Bruce Lee, Yip Man, Alexander the Great, Attila the Hun, Hannibal Barca, Saito Hajime, William Wallace, Spartacus, Leonidas I and so on. (and of course, the countless number of warriors and soldiers who fought in pre-automatic machine gun warfare)


But in all honesty I wish you good luck with your training, I admire anyone who gets off their but and trains, I also hope that if you ever have to protect yourself or a loved one your training will be of use (though I pray that never eventuates, for you or anyone else here).
Well I know my style works for me so I'll continue practising it, thank you very much. And you should definitely continue practising what works for you and I also hope that it will keep you safe.

[5FDP]

Hit the showers you two :p

[Bartrim]

Hit the showers you two :p

I thought knuckle push ups would be in order:p

[Lint]

What is the most realistic form of fighting these days? MMA surely, yeah it is a sport but it is also the closest thing you can get to a street fight without being in one.


I'm not bagging MMA, but some decent weapons skills (defending against and disarming) and learning to cope with multiple opponents would be quintessential to participating in a street fight. As far as I know MMA doesn't give you any tutelage for this because it is a sport but any good self-defense school would.

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.

[GoktimusPrime]

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.
Traditional arts also have a lot of conditioning exercises for building endurance such as:
* jabbing palms and fingers at a gravel-filled bag (known as Iron Palm or Iron Hand)
* bumping limbs against teach other (known as "knocking")
* gradual striking of parts of the body

Here are some videos showing conditioning exercises to harden parts of the body:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fKSoB2GByM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poN-ExZRQxw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im9NzBciths

[Hot Rodimus]

lol much to say but I am going to stay in the shower :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Some of what's demonstrated in the third video are more parlour tricks than conditioning exercises. You just need to be able to sift through the relevant stuff away from the 'smoke and mirrors.'

See the previous posts regarding "Penn & Teller's Bullshit!: Martial Arts" in:
Post 106 (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=180005&postcount=106)
Post 107 (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=180005&postcount=107)
Post 108 (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=180005&postcount=108)
Post 111 (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=180005&postcount=111[/url)

That's a great episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit! which goes about debunking a lot of the myths and mysticism surrounding martial arts. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

I'm not bagging MMA, but some decent weapons skills (defending against and disarming) and learning to cope with multiple opponents would be quintessential to participating in a street fight. As far as I know MMA doesn't give you any tutelage for this because it is a sport but any good self-defense school would.

Don't get me wrong, someone who practices MMA would have the advantage in a punch up since you are trained to take and deliver punishment but as soon as weapons or multiple opponents are involved (typical in a street fight) it becomes a whole new ball game.

I am in total agreance with what you have said.

[Hot Rodimus]

oh and I got bored in the shower and my skin got all wrinkly lol

i agree with conditioning, most martial arts will do this in some form wether it's hitting/kicking bags or pads, hitting eachothers bodies etc. I have done a lot of this in the past when I did traditional styles and I do agree with its purpose. Some of the guys I trained with would really hurt you when they blocked your attacks doing drills or could deliver a wicked forearm strike.

It only goes so far though and is not the answer to conditioning your body and mind to what happens in a real fight and the sort of abuse you can potentially recieve.

This sort of leads me into something else I have pondered and actually discussed with a number of well respected martial artists and self defence instructors.

I mentioned that the blocks of someones arms that have been conditioned can be very painfull but in reality the blocking that quite often gets practised in two man drills and sparring is not realistly achieved in a real scenario. Action is always quicker than reaction, it is a fact. Covering or evading tends to be more achievable, think boxing/kickboxing gaurd and other self defence systems that teach gaurds like 'crazy monkey' or 'spear' guards. These guards try to provide reaction from the defender which will allow them to react quickly and have a great chance of being able to absorb almost any attack as it can be applied quickly and instinctively (if trained correctly) and react accordingly with attacks.

I was ignorant to this sort of thing until I discussed it with some other martial artists (as said before) who really are well respected in the martial arts community and a lot of them have their own schools. It really did open my
eyes and changed the way I train.

Blocks are not totally useless, you may be fighting at a distance which allows you more time to react (this is not the norm though, think about how fights usually start with ppl in your face) or you are lucky and your skills are far superior than the attacker. But the idea that you will be able to block someones attacks at full speed and force 2 to three times or more and then recipricate is quite unrealistic.

Gok do you do any sort of conditioning? Also just wondering if you could describe your average training session for me?

[Bartrim]

Conditioning is very important. Since I've only been to 6 lessons I'm stuffed by the time we finish our warm ups:p

[Hot Rodimus]

Conditioning is very important. Since I've only been to 6 lessons I'm stuffed by the time we finish our warm ups:p

haha I can remember what it feel like Bartrim, actually if I was to undertake some of those conditioning exercises that I used to do now I would be very sore indeed. The body can be hardened fairly quickly but you also loose it fairly quickly too if you don't keep it up.

good to see your sticking with it too mate, just wondering....I saw in a post of yours that you have 2 kids, are they inspiration in learning martial arts?

[GoktimusPrime]

i agree with conditioning, most martial arts will do this in some form wether it's hitting/kicking bags or pads, hitting eachothers bodies etc. I have done a lot of this in the past when I did traditional styles and I do agree with its purpose. Some of the guys I trained with would really hurt you when they blocked your attacks doing drills or could deliver a wicked forearm strike.

It only goes so far though and is not the answer to conditioning your body and mind to what happens in a real fight and the sort of abuse you can potentially recieve.

This sort of leads me into something else I have pondered and actually discussed with a number of well respected martial artists and self defence instructors.

I mentioned that the blocks of someones arms that have been conditioned can be very painfull but in reality the blocking that quite often gets practised in two man drills and sparring is not realistly achieved in a real scenario. Action is always quicker than reaction, it is a fact. Covering or evading tends to be more achievable, think boxing/kickboxing gaurd and other self defence systems that teach gaurds like 'crazy monkey' or 'spear' guards. These guards try to provide reaction from the defender which will allow them to react quickly and have a great chance of being able to absorb almost any attack as it can be applied quickly and instinctively (if trained correctly) and react accordingly with attacks.

I agree. One's training should involve a variety of different activities. I think conditioning is useful, and I also think that covering and evading is extremely important too. They're all useful things to learn. When you use them entirely depends on the scenario of course.


Blocks are not totally useless, you may be fighting at a distance which allows you more time to react (this is not the norm though, think about how fights usually start with ppl in your face) or you are lucky and your skills are far superior than the attacker. But the idea that you will be able to block someones attacks at full speed and force 2 to three times or more and then recipricate is quite unrealistic.
Yep, I agree with this too. Most fights IRL will be surprise attacks that we won't see coming.

Remember that there are different types of blocking and deflecting. The basic level blocking is more long range, as that's how beginners train (cos it's easier) - but at more higher levels you have shorter range blocks; e.g. using your shoulder to deflect an incoming punch to the head because you didn't notice the attack until it's only a few centimetres from your head.

One exercise we sometimes do is fear simulations where we have to close our eyes and relax ourselves - then open our eyes where our partner will have a punch, kick, grab etc. only a few centimetres away from our body, and as soon as they see our eyes open they commence the attack, giving us less than a second to respond to an attack that's almost making contact.


Gok do you do any sort of conditioning?
Limb knocking, Pigua body striking and I also practice breakfalling which incidentally conditions your body. Sparring helps with conditioning too - even with protective gear on a lot of those hits hurt. But I very seldomly spar (although I can see its benefit).


Also just wondering if you could describe your average training session for me?
It depends... the focus of sessions can vary on things like theme or even climate. Our sessions include stuff like: forms (sometimes practised with weights), conditioning, drills, padwork, stretching, breathing meditation etc.

P.S.: We usually don't do sparring at our school, but I do sometimes do sparring outside of class with other martial artists.

Here's a pic of me sparring with a Muay Thai fighter - captured from a video at the exact moment where my hand strikes his ill-defended groin.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Martial%20arts/th_ballseekinghand.jpg

[Bartrim]

haha I can remember what it feel like Bartrim, actually if I was to undertake some of those conditioning exercises that I used to do now I would be very sore indeed. The body can be hardened fairly quickly but you also loose it fairly quickly too if you don't keep it up.

good to see your sticking with it too mate, just wondering....I saw in a post of yours that you have 2 kids, are they inspiration in learning martial arts?

Aint that the truth:)

Yeah I have 2 kids. They are part of the reason I started.Work was getting to me and I was getting annoyed at my kids quite quickly, karate is my way of venting about my business problems. Another reason is my personal fitness. My oldest boy is 3.5 and I plan on signing him up when he starts school as he is a bit ill desciplined due to my parents spoiling him rotten:p

[Hot Rodimus]

Aint that the truth:)

Yeah I have 2 kids. They are part of the reason I started.Work was getting to me and I was getting annoyed at my kids quite quickly, karate is my way of venting about my business problems. Another reason is my personal fitness. My oldest boy is 3.5 and I plan on signing him up when he starts school as he is a bit ill desciplined due to my parents spoiling him rotten:p

lol oh ok that's cool though slightly different to what I thought it would be lol.
My daughter was incentive to resume training after a break from it as I wanted to do whatever I could to protect my family. But your totally right about letting off steam, I work an annoying office job surrounded by jerks, it provides tonnes of enthusiasm for heating the pads at the end of the day lol.

I think it's a great thing for kids too, I hope to get my daughter and any other kids we have into it when they are old enough (and if they want, I won't force it). I had my first class when I was 12 and was a bit of a little shit at the time, it certainly helped me.

[Bartrim]

Learnt how to knock someone out in a few seconds last night with a neck pressure point hold:cool: Now when my wife nags me that she can't get to sleep at night...:p

[Hot Rodimus]

Learnt how to knock someone out in a few seconds last night with a neck pressure point hold:cool: Now when my wife nags me that she can't get to sleep at night...:p

:D lol nice

did you get to see it demonstrated? I have only seen someone knocked out like that once. when I did wing chun the syllabus also taught brazillian ju jitsu for ground work. one of the guys thought he was tough and wouldn't tap out when he was in a collar choke hold. he made a weird noise and then his eyes rolled back into hi head and then he was out of it. pretty scary stuff as the instructor was slapping him in the face and it took him a while to wake up.

[Bartrim]

:D lol nice

did you get to see it demonstrated? I have only seen someone knocked out like that once. when I did wing chun the syllabus also taught brazillian ju jitsu for ground work. one of the guys thought he was tough and wouldn't tap out when he was in a collar choke hold. he made a weird noise and then his eyes rolled back into hi head and then he was out of it. pretty scary stuff as the instructor was slapping him in the face and it took him a while to wake up.

Not all the way but he did put it on me for a few seconds and it didn't feel nice.:D

[Bartrim]

Woo Hoo.

Found out that I'm eligible for grading next week:) Kinda funny since I don't even have a gi yet.

[GoktimusPrime]

Awesome. Good luck. :)


Kinda funny since I don't even have a gi yet.
I hope this means that it must be because they think you're good enough to grade so they're pushing you ahead.

I prefer this attitude over other schools that force you to stay at white belt for like a really long time (sometimes up to a year or more) regardless of the frequency and dedication of your training - and most importantly - regardless of your actual skill level. I think if a student exhibits the competency to go up another grade, then why hold them back? I think some schools purposely make students wait a really long time to go up grades just so they can make more money off them.

And the fact that they're letting you grade even without a gi sounds like a positive sign to me because it sounds like they're more concerned with your training as opposed to superficial things like your uniform; which is ultimately another money-making venture... there's no reason why you can't train in comfortable and reasonably tight fitting plain clothes. I always train in plain clothes (at most on a _rare_ occasion I might wear gi pants - but I never wear the top or belt). I prefer training with plain clothes as it feels more realistic (cos I'm unlikely to be attacked by someone wearing a gi or pyjamas IRL). I remember once training with a Judo black belt who had trouble grabbing me because I was just wearing a cotton T-shirt. He had become so reliant on holding onto a gi (i.e. the sleeves and collar) that he had trouble just gripping my arms and shirt.

Anyway, glad to hear that you're progressing well at your school and best of luck with your grading. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

good work Bartrim!
How are you feeling about it? Nervous? Excited?
I was very nervous before my first grading.

[Hot Rodimus]

And the fact that they're letting you grade even without a gi sounds like a positive sign to me because it sounds like they're more concerned with your training as opposed to superficial things like your uniform; which is ultimately another money-making venture...:)

totally agree with this, I have a black and a white gi that I obtained over the years from training in different schools. A few times I have tried out a new school and when the time has come for me to wear a gi (never do for the first few weeks as a sign of respect, just a personal thing and has saved me a beating too lol) and when I tell the instructor I already have one you can see it in their face they are dissapointed at not being able to make a few more bucks from selling you a cheap gi at an inflated price.

[GoktimusPrime]

My instructor only asks for the following as far as dress code is concerned:
* Something light fitting and comfortable, but not baggy (cos baggy clothes can get caught, snagged etc.)
* No uniforms or shirts from other martial arts schools - simply because it can mislead/confuse newcomers.
* No watches, rings, bracelets, dangling earrings, necklaces or any other kind of jewellery/ornaments that can get caught/snagged or damaged.
* Closed footwear (sneakers)[1]. Because our footwork is based on Monkey the most ideal are sneakers designed for rapid/sudden stopping and turning, like tennis shoes. I've been wearing runners and my soles have become so worn that they're as smooth as a baby's bottom! (I need to buy new trainers :p)

Other than that we can pretty much wear whatever we want. When I train I usually wear:
+ Football shirt - I prefer it over cotton because it has that breathable fabric and feels more durable than cotton too.
+ track pants
+ runners

------------------------------------------------------------
[1]Different kinds of shoes are more ideal to different kinds of fighting styles. While court-sport shoes like tennis, basketball, badminton etc. are more suited to styles with rapid turning (e.g. Monkey-based footwork), other kinds of shoes like runners and those "Kung Fu slipper" shoes are more suited for styles with linear stepping, like styles with Snake-based footwork (e.g. Wing Chun, Bagua etc.). A lot of people like to use those Taekwondo shoes - but I've never tried them so I can't comment. One reasonably decent brand of shoes commonly used by martial artists these days is Feiyue (http://urbanfreeflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/feiyues.jpg). Their soles are hard enough to be used outdoors but soft enough that you can use them indoors (as they won't scratch up waxed floors and mats etc.) -- I personally dislike training barefoot, so I have a pair of Feiyues which I use if I need to train at a barefoot school. I ask the instructor first of course, and usually they're cool with it because they're not considered "street shoes." I recently did a demonstration with a colleague who goes barefoot - and during our practice I accidentally stepped on his toes a few times with my sneakers which really hurt, so for the actual demo I wore my Feiyue. I bought mine from a martial arts shop, but I know someone else who buys his online.

[Bartrim]

Thanks guys. I don't have a gi because they don't have one in my size. It's on order. We get graded 4 times a year (at the end of each term) if the instructor thinks you are up to it.

To answer your question Hot Rodimus I was feeling really confident I've been practicing heaps at home but now I found out about the grading I just tried to practice a bit and really stuffed up... so I guess you could say I'm nervous. It's cool though I have one more training session before my grading so I think I'll be fine.

Also they actually encourage us to wear loose fitting clothing if we don't have a gi. At the moment I prefer not wearing a gi as I am so out of shape even though it's cold as at night I'm sweating pretty hard in t-shirt and shirts I don't want to have to wear long pants:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah... that's another good point. Gis are DAMN HOT and you sweat like a pig in them! And you think Karate Gis are bad? Try wearing a gi from a grappling art like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido etc. - their tops are a lot thicker than a Karate gi (because they're constantly being grabbed and thrown about they need to be hardier)... those are really freak-ing uncomfortable!

[Hot Rodimus]

To answer your question Hot Rodimus I was feeling really confident I've been practicing heaps at home but now I found out about the grading I just tried to practice a bit and really stuffed up... so I guess you could say I'm nervous. It's cool though I have one more training session before my grading so I think I'll be fine.



Mate you will ace it for sure. Look at it this way, your instructor seems to be a good one who runs a reputable school, his students are a reflection on how good he and his school are (nothing says dodgey more than a school with students wearing belts they are not good enough to have actually earnt). You would not get asked to grade if you were not ready. Sure it's your first belt but I have seen plenty of people held back from gradings even for their first one. You've done the hard work and it has been recognised by your instructor, I have no doubt you will pass.

[Hot Rodimus]

Yeah... that's another good point. Gis are DAMN HOT and you sweat like a pig in them! And you think Karate Gis are bad? Try wearing a gi from a grappling art like Judo, Jujutsu, Aikido etc. - their tops are a lot thicker than a Karate gi (because they're constantly being grabbed and thrown about they need to be hardier)... those are really freak-ing uncomfortable!

haha if your not sweating Gok your not training hard enough :D
A good quality gi that has been fitted properly should never be uncomfortable.

[GoktimusPrime]

well we don't wear gis at our school so it's a moot point for me. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

well that is good since you clearly found them uncomfortable in your earlier post.

[GoktimusPrime]

I must confess that I find the "VOOSH!" sound that the gi makes pretty darn cool. :D

[Bartrim]

Got my Gi on Monday Night. I can see why you aren't a fan Gok I was sweating my ass off.

Grading tonight and I'm on the verge of getting a cold/flu type a thing. Really sore throat, nose is starting to run and my whole body is aching... Just have to get through tonight.

[Bartrim]

100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 50 squats, 30 leglifts, 20 squats with extended arms and a half ballsed up kata later... I got my yellow belt. I am so sore and tired now.

[Hot Rodimus]

100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 50 squats, 30 leglifts, 20 squats with extended arms and a half ballsed up kata later... I got my yellow belt. I am so sore and tired now.

Congrats Bartrim!!!!!!!!!!! the first of many gradings out of the way!!..... they get easier as you get better technique,flexibilty and fitness...at least for a while lol. Brown to black belt gradings do bump up the difficulty level again.
Good to see your grading involved a level of fitness assesment too, that is a good sign.

[GoktimusPrime]

I've heard that the difficulty significantly bumps up after black belt. Technically a black belt means that you are a Beginner because after black belt you get dans and "dan" is the Japanese word for "level." So by its very definition, 1st Dan means "Level 1" (so I guess by default a pre-1st Dan black belt would be level 0). This may very well depend on the actual style/school as well though as different schools often teach to different curriculums.

I once spoke to someone who told me that after he got his black belt the training after that was nothing like pre-black belt. He described pre-black belt training as just "preliminary basics" and training at black belt and beyond as the _real_ training. He did complain that as a result the fundamental techniques he learnt at white and yellow belt were counterintuitive to what he was learning beyond black belt; e.g. at white/yellow belt level he was taught to block in a certain way, then after he got his black belt he was effectively told to disregard that technique in favour of an entirely different way of blocking. While he conceded that the new way was better, he argued that beginners should never be taught something entirely different if it's going to be scrapped at the advanced level.

I'm inclined to agree with this sentiment... I think what is taught at beginner's level SHOULD compliment with what you learn at advanced level. That's why I refuse to use Romaji (Romanised Japanese) in my teaching. One of the first things I teach my students is to learn to read and write Hiragana - then I start teaching them more vocabulary and grammar etc. There are some teachers who will start off using Romaji and others who won't - and there are pros and cons to both methods. But IMO Romaji is counter-productive in the long term for students who seriously want to learn the Japanese language (and will need to be able to be literate in Japanese script).

By all means simplify techniques for beginners, but I don't agree with teaching them something entirely different and counter-intuitive to what they will learn at the advanced level.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Disclaimer: I'm not saying that all martial arts schools teach basics at that are counter-intuitive to their advanced syllabus. But it would appear that there are a few that do.

[5FDP]

Congratulations Bartrim :)

[Bartrim]

Congratulations Bartrim :)

Thanks dude. :)

[griffin]

How does that relate to the discussion of this topic?

[MV75]

How does that relate to the discussion of this topic?

It doesn't, not in photochopped parody form anyway.

If anyone wants to put forth an example, do it properly for this thread.

[Hot Rodimus]

I obviously stepped on a few toes and hurt some feelings, for that I apologise.

[SamLoi888]

I obviously stepped on a few toes and hurt some feelings

I thought Martial Arts taught control of emotions?

Does it? Can anyone answer? To what degree? What Martial Arts are the best for controlling emotions?

[Hot Rodimus]

Gok would probably be the best person to answer this.

[GoktimusPrime]

Emotional control is a traditional element of martial arts training. From a practical POV it's an important part of training because one needs to keep one's head relatively cool under extreme fear and pressure during a real fight. Without emotional training it's becomes very difficult for someone to put their training into practice.

There have been studies into this - one particular interesting study was conducted by Darren Laur in his article "The Anatomy of Fear and How It Relates to Survival Skills Training." (http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html) Laur himself is a serving law enforcement professional and some of his research was conducted with riot police training.

Anyway, you can follow that link and read it in more detail for yourself, but to put it simply:
+ You WILL experience fear in a fight. Your metabolic rate increases under fear, which Laur measures according to heartrate (beats per minute - bpm) - in a fight a person's heartrate can change from 70bpm to 220bpm in less than half a second.
+ At 115bpm fine motor skills are diminished, but your gross motor skills are heightened. Thus the optimum performance range for fighting is between 115-145bpm.
+ Once you exceed 145bpm most people will lose complex motor skills and may suffer things like diminished hearing, peripheral narrowing (tunnel vision), memory loss, disassociation (a sense of detachment from reality), intrusive distracting thoughts, memory distortion -- and in some individuals, even temporary paralysis. Beyond this level some individuals may even urinate and/or defecate themselves as the body automatically engages in "losing ballist" to make your body lighter for a faster escape.
+ At 185-220bpm most people go into a state of "hypervigilance" or "deer in the headlights" mode where they simply freeze up or engage in irrational behaviour like going into danger (this is because the brain goes into some kind of feedback loop).

Thus emotional training is important to teach students to remain focused and optimised in order to use their skills in self defence. You cannot ignore your fear - you have to accept the fact that you WILL be frightened like all bugger in a fight. But emotional training teaches you how to work with your fear - not against it; after all, fear has some advantages in a fight, like the optimisation of gross motor skills. Some people experience heightened visual clarity and "slow motion" time (ever fallen off your bicycle and felt like time was slowing down? It's because your brain is actually thinking faster, hence why time seems to go slower - again a natural defensive reaction).

There are lots of training techniques that can be employed to ensure that self defence skills can work in a frightening survival situation, and the article explains them in detail. One time-honoured practice is autogenic breathing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogenic_training). Studies have shown that autogenic breathing can decrease one's heart rate up to 30% for up to 40 seconds. So if a person's heartrate was sitting at 175-220bpm, autogenic breathing can reduce it to 115-145bpm, which is the optimum range for combat effectiveness. So as you can see, all that Zen meditation stuff that martial artists practice actually do serve a practical purpose.

Anyway, check out Laur's article as it does document the research in thorough detail. :)

[Hot Rodimus]

has this helped you in the fights you have been in Gok?

[GoktimusPrime]

I've already repeatedly told you about my policy regarding discussing personal fight experience on a public open thread. (-_-)

Click on the link (http://www.lwcbooks.com/articles/anatomy.html). There's thorough evidence from research conducted by Laur as well as others that he references, and a lot of that research was conducted thoroughly too (e.g. as with scientific experiments, they had test groups and control groups).

Proper studies into survival stress reaction and its relation to combat performance dates back to the 1930s;
e.g.
+ Soldiers experienced immense difficulty transmitting Morse code during combat compared to during training. Transmitting Morse is a fine motor skill and research shows that fine motor skills are the first thing that most people lose under combat stress.
+ During the Vietnam War the location of buttons and switches in fighter cockpits were reconfigured according to survival stress reaction research results in order to make them more intuitively accessible during combat

The majority of survival stress reaction research was conducted by the military up until the mid 1960s. Since then there's been a lot more research from non-military researchers as well from sports sciences (seeing how extreme stress reaction relates to athletic performance). If you'd like to learn more check out Laur's bibliography at the end of the article.

[MV75]

A "fight" is also encompassing training and sparring.

I do believe there is a difference myself to calmly writing an essay on the subject and then being in the situation... You don't count your heatbeats, rather you are more aware of the state the adrenaline rush is doing to you. ;) BUT, also it is good to be able to categorise different states of being and stresses into examples and groups so further understandings can be had after the event.

[Hot Rodimus]

A "fight" is also encompassing training and sparring.

I do believe there is a difference myself to calmly writing an essay on the subject and then being in the situation... You don't count your heatbeats, rather you are more aware of the state the adrenaline rush is doing to you. ;) BUT, also it is good to be able to categorise different states of being and stresses into examples and groups so further understandings can be had after the event.

I agree with this.

I am also very aware of people such as Laur, Geoff Thompson and Richard Dimitri who all teach this stuff albeit with their own personal spins. None of this is new stuff and has been around for years.

Why would you be reluctant to discuss fights you have had if you were acting in self defense.......or did you kill someone Gok lol.

[griffin]

Badgering someone who has declined to publically comment on matters (that may or may not be incriminating - not to mention, discussions of personal violence is innapropriate for this forum) is best avoided.

[Hot Rodimus]

I wouldn't have called it badgering, i asked a question and attempted to use a bit of humour to close it. fair enough my comedic stylings may be lacking but as someone brought up the topic of emotional control it does make me wonder if ppl are being a bit sensitive.
It is obviously time for me to hit the showers once again.

[GoktimusPrime]

So I'm looking at getting back into martial arts training after taking a god-knows-how-long hiatus. Today I Googled for martial arts schools around my local area and tonight I went and had a free trial lesson at a nearby Hapkido school. They've offered me a 2nd trial lesson too. Yay - love free stuff. :)

One actual question I have is to do with the pricing. This school charges $140 for registration which covers uniform, insurance, membership, a DVD showing the white belt syllabus, and some other pieces of merchandising. On top of this they charge a minimum of $50 a month if I attend lessons once a week, so the initial start up cost would be $190!!! :o And on top of that, they have gradings which cost $50!!

Sweet mother of Primus... now... I've come from a school that has no belts, no federation fees, no uniforms, no gradings. I just paid for an annual fee to cover insurance and then paid for lessons. The $50 for a month's worth of once-a-week lessons I think is okay, but what about the join-up fee and grading cost? Is this a reasonable price to pay or would I be ripped off?? :confused: The instructor told me that I seemed able to perform at red belt level (I don't know if I'd rate myself that highly, but it was a nice compliment :)). But at any rate, I don't think they'd let me skip through the lower belts and I'd probably have to start at white belt and work (and pay) my way up to black belt level.

I asked them what would happen if I failed a grading, and I was told that there was no refund for a fail and that in event of failure I'd have to pay $50 again for another grading (it's like the bloody RTA!). But, I was told by both a black belt student and the instructor that virtually nobody fails... which made me kinda wonder what the point of grading is if everyone can pass.

My knowledge of how Hapkido schools work is like, zero... so I just wanna know, is this normal pricing and practice?

Thank you.

[5FDP]

Which Hapkido school was it Gok? Can I suggest you contact Geoff Scully - he runs a few classes around Sydney and is the best person to learn from.

[gekisou]

I know nothing about Hapkido but when I studied Taekwando in Singapore, I remembered having to buy a gi and pay for lessons.
Paid grading as well but nowhere near 50 AUD. And it included the new belt... if you passed of course.

[Bartrim]

My annual fee is around $90 and includes my grading fees. I'm entitled to two gradings a year (if I'm good enough) also I have to $30 a month for lessons going once a week or if you can make two lessons a week you pay $38.

[GoktimusPrime]

5FDP: Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to discuss this with you in further detail next time we meet up IRL if you don't mind. :)

-----------------------------------

Some concerning things I experienced at the Hapkido class:

+ At one stage we were kicking at pads. One student I was training with unleashed a volley of high kicks. His posture had absolutely bugger all stability - it was like watching someone do leg swings as part of a warm-up routine. He had no grounding in his stance at all (and as such his kicking form was rather sloppy). Not surprisingly he also had little power behind his kicks. He was kicking at the pad (and even then he was barely tapping the pad's surface) rather than smashing through it. When it was my turn to kick I managed to kick the pad right off his hand several times and he had trouble holding on. After most kicks I also held my leg in the air for a while to practice my balance and correct posturing (rather than simply wildly swinging my leg to get power, in which case my kicking leg would immediately drop to the floor after contact).

+ At another stage of this exercise I was being shown how to do a hooking kick (I think that's what they called it). At first both my partner and I finished the kick in a perfectly side-on position, which I thought was fine. Then a black belt came and corrected us and told us that the correct way of doing it was to land with the leg slightly out. The black belt admitted that this position did open the groin up and exposed it... but did NOT follow up with a justification for why this was done! Wha?! I looked at my partner and told him that I thought his way made more sense than the prescribed correction given to us from the black belt. I can't imagine why one would intentionally leave one's groin (or any vulnerable body part) exposed unnecessarily... the only possible explanation I can come up with is baiting - but this wasn't explained, and there certainly wasn't a follow up move shown to us that demonstrated it as a baiting manoeuvre. Odd.

+ There was a sparring session but with two main rules: absolute non-contact and only 3 moves allowed. I have 2 issues with this - first of all, while I completely understand that the instructor is being diligent in his legal duty of care by enforcing non-contact, the problem is that students have no idea if their moves actually worked or not without any kind of tactile contact. I prefer light-contact sparring where the force of the touch is like playing Tips in the school playground (e.g. you "tip" each other with fingertips and feet etc. instead of full force punches and kicks). That way when you feel that you've been "tipped" you immediately know that you've taken a hit. Another problem for me is that my fighting style is half striking half grappling, so I rely on doing a lot of sticking and grabbing... not possible if I have absolutely no contact at all. I used light contact myself, not because I was intentionally trying to disobey instructions, but because that's just how I automatically operate in a sparring situation. Nobody got hurt though and nobody made any complaints. <shrug> The problem with only allowing 3 moves I think is quite evident... the exercise becomes more of a game. What would often happen is that everyone would move three times then STOP and reset. I'm not used to this - usually I just keep going until the fight's over. So my partner moved three times and stopped and lowered his guard while I just moved in -- he quickly picked his guard up again, but that momentary lapse in vigilance put my opponent at a serious disadvantage.

+ Another issue: and I experienced this both during the drill exercises and sparring - students liked to keep a massively long distance. For example, during one kicking-pad exercise my partner told me stand 2 metres away from him. And during sparring my partner just kept back-pedalling to avoid getting anywhere near me. It was like they were fighting with fingertips and toes and didn't want to get in any closer than that. So during the exercise I had to put an extra hop in my step to try to close the gap between me and the pad. During sparring I eventually just used 'crushing' steps to effectively pounce in and invade my opponent's personal space. Cos really, if your personal space isn't being invaded then there's no need to fight (you might as well run away). IMO the point of self defence is that your personal space is being invaded and you have little choice but to fight to protect yourself.

+ This is something that 5FDP, myself and others have griped about -- over-compliance in training. During a self-defence exercise, the attacker had to grab the defender, then the defender executed the defence, but when this happened the attacker was expected NOT to either continue attacking or attempt to counter the defence. For example, I'd grab my partner's wrist, then he'd break free of the grab and follow up with an elbow which I'd instinctively blocked. I was then told not to block the elbow. Huh?!

+ Another time I grabbed my partner's wrist, then he stuck onto my grabbing hand and turned me around to put me in a restraining hold, but I easily turned around to reposition myself so that he couldn't execute the submission hold. My partner told me that in a real fight this move would be executed so quickly that the force would dislocate my shoulder (and thus suggesting that I would never be able to outmanoeuvre him and prevent the dislocation). My partner was making the rather dangerous assumption that he's faster and more manoeuvreable than me -- which may be true, but it shouldn't be an assumption that one makes in a fight nor during training. I was taught to always assume that your opponent is your superior.

...so, I came across a lot of issues which I've seen before. Now I must say that this experience was only with 3 students at the school and their attitude may not reflect the overall attitude of the instructor or the school itself. But it was disappointing to come across the common problems of:
* poor posture/stances
* poor ability to issue power in strikes (i.e. hitting at targets instead of through them - although having poor stances contributes to this too)
* unnecessarily exposing oneself
* fighting in predictable rhythms
* over-compliance with training partners
* assuming that one's opponent is inferior

And new issues that I haven't come across before were:
* keeping too great a distance (why fight if you're in immediate danger?)
* complete lack of tactile contact
...I've heard of these issues from other people before, but this was my first time to experience it first hand.

And to be fair to this school, the non-contact sparring is only enforced with junior students. I was told that senior students had contact sparring but had to wear protective equipment - which is fair enough (again I greatly respect the fact that the instructor is diligently observing his legal duty of care).

[5FDP]

5FDP: Thanks for the feedback. I'd like to discuss this with you in further detail next time we meet up IRL if you don't mind. :)

Just PM'd ya :)

[Bartrim]

The local paper finally got around to posting an article about the last karate grading. Their is also a picture of the adult karate class with myself included. Now unfortunately Ulladulla has an extremely high ratio of tall poppies and as such I've copped alot of flak of locals in the last 48 hrs.

Why can't these people be supportive:mad:

[5FDP]

Why can't these people be supportive:mad:

Just kick their ass :p

[GoktimusPrime]

"How dare you achieve success!" :p

As long as you're enjoying what you're doing and it works for you (e.g. you are able to competently defend yourself) then who gives a hoot what others think. If I were self-conscious about what others thought about me I probably wouldn't be wearing Transformer clothes 24/7 and carrying toys with me in public. :D I've still got those Transformer tatts on me from Sunday... some of the people at my work (both colleagues and clients) have noticed... heh. ;)

[Bartrim]

Just kick their ass :p

But isn't Martial arts supposed to be defensive? so I'd have to get them to attack me before I kick their asses:p

[5FDP]

But isn't Martial arts supposed to be defensive? so I'd have to get them to attack me before I kick their asses:p

There is nothing more I can teach you. You are ready my student :)

[Bartrim]

There is nothing more I can teach you. You are ready my student :)

You could teach me how to provoke them so I can kick their asses:p

[GoktimusPrime]

But isn't Martial arts supposed to be defensive? so I'd have to get them to attack me before I kick their asses
Generally speaking, no. Most martial arts can be easily used quite aggressively and for attack. Remember that most martial arts evolved from ancient battlefields and were used by warriors and soldiers in war. Punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting etc. -- every time you're practising a form of attack, it's not defensive (strictly speaking).

There are some martial arts styles that are more passive and defensive, like Tai Chi, Aikido, Jujutsu etc., but any style that uses striking/attacking is not purely defensive. Now in this day and age, most of us learn martial arts as a means of defence, and lawfully we can use attacks to defend ourselves if we are provoked, so long as we use a reasonable amount of force. But you'll notice that people like bouncers and police officers are often taugh passive techniques like holds, grabs and submissions over actually striking. It allows them to adequately defend themselves and neutralise opponents without actually hitting them. The same goes for teachers, we are allowed to restrain students for their own safety (e.g. if they're trying to harm themselves or others), but of course, we're not allowed to strike them. I've seen the instructional handbook for teachers aides (who often deal with kids with severe intellectual handicaps that they can lash out violently and these aides need to know how to safely restrain them) - and all the techniques were basically the same holds, grapples and submission techniques that I've seen in passive internal martial arts.


You could teach me how to provoke them so I can kick their asses:p
Ask me this next time we meet IRL. I'm not talking about anything illegal or unlawful, but I think it would be best if we discussed this further off the board. ;)

[Hot Rodimus]

if a fight is going to happen (usually there are signs before it does such as verbal, posturing etc) then in all honesty you are better off getting the first one in.
I know all the legal buffs here are going to say "oh but you will get done for assualt etc" which may be the case depending on if there are any witnesses at the time etc but you greatly improve your chances of walking away in good condition.
Action is always faster than reaction, it is a fact that can't be argued. remember back to the school yard when you used to play games like 'slap hands etc'. It always sucked being the person getting slapped didn't it?
You can still act in self defense and throw the first punch.
Sorry my skin was getting all wrinkly in the shower....

[Bartrim]

Generally speaking, no. Most martial arts can be easily used quite aggressively and for attack. Remember that most martial arts evolved from ancient battlefields and were used by warriors and soldiers in war. Punching, kicking, elbowing, kneeing, headbutting etc. -- every time you're practising a form of attack, it's not defensive (strictly speaking).

There are some martial arts styles that are more passive and defensive, like Tai Chi, Aikido, Jujutsu etc., but any style that uses striking/attacking is not purely defensive. Now in this day and age, most of us learn martial arts as a means of defence, and lawfully we can use attacks to defend ourselves if we are provoked, so long as we use a reasonable amount of force. But you'll notice that people like bouncers and police officers are often taugh passive techniques like holds, grabs and submissions over actually striking. It allows them to adequately defend themselves and neutralise opponents without actually hitting them. The same goes for teachers, we are allowed to restrain students for their own safety (e.g. if they're trying to harm themselves or others), but of course, we're not allowed to strike them. I've seen the instructional handbook for teachers aides (who often deal with kids with severe intellectual handicaps that they can lash out violently and these aides need to know how to safely restrain them) - and all the techniques were basically the same holds, grapples and submission techniques that I've seen in passive internal martial arts.


Ask me this next time we meet IRL. I'm not talking about anything illegal or unlawful, but I think it would be best if we discussed this further off the board. ;)

Really? Oh ok. Well we are taught from a strickly defensive point of view. Every move/sequences of moves we are taught begin with us countering an opponents attack. We are never taught to be the aggressor... although make sparring interesting especially with us rookies as we just bounce around waiting for the other to strike:D

Oh and that last comment about provoking was stricly tongue in cheek Gok.

[GoktimusPrime]

if a fight is going to happen (usually there are signs before it does such as verbal, posturing etc) then in all honesty you are better off getting the first one in.
I know all the legal buffs here are going to say "oh but you will get done for assualt etc" which may be the case depending on if there are any witnesses at the time etc but you greatly improve your chances of walking away in good condition.
Action is always faster than reaction, it is a fact that can't be argued. remember back to the school yard when you used to play games like 'slap hands etc'. It always sucked being the person getting slapped didn't it?
You can still act in self defense and throw the first punch.
Actually, I think the law would be in support - providing that you use reasonable force in self defence.

Remember that the law defines assault as "to cause another to apprehend (perceive) immediate harmful contact." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault) Someone does not need to touch you in order to assault you - once they do make contact, then that's battery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_%28crime%29) (thus once you're attacked you're a victim of assault and battery). So if someone gives you the honest perception that they're going to harm you, then they are assaulting you, and you are allowed to defend yourself using a reasonable amount of force.

"A conditional threat, such as 'Don't move or I'll kill you' is still an assault. This is even though, technically, if the victim does not move they will not be killed and have nothing to fear. This is because the basis of the offence is the creation of fear, and someone will always be scared with a knife in their back." (M. Parker, B. Derwent, "Justice, Law & Society 1", Longman Cheshire, 1991)

So there's no need for people to necessarily assume that they're powerless to defend themselves if a potential attacker is merely making threats. Threats can be verbal and non-verbal. For example, adopting a fighting stance (e.g. raising your fists in an aggressive and hostile manner) is a non-verbal way of threatening someone - and thus could be argued to be assault and you would use this as your justification to enact self defence. If a person raises a fist as if they're going to punch you, then it would not be unreasonable for you to punch them first. You don't have to wait for the punch to being as the threat has already been established (and thus you are _already_ under assault). Meeting the threat of a punch with a punch should be perceived as a reasonable amount of force in self defence. The law states "reasonable" force, but most people go by the rule of using "equal or lesser force" compared to the attacker.

Waiting for someone to throw a hit before defending yourself isn't necessary and it can be dangerous - cos after all a single good king hit can be fatal (e.g. David Hookes).


Really? Oh ok. Well we are taught from a strickly defensive point of view. Every move/sequences of moves we are taught begin with us countering an opponents attack. We are never taught to be the aggressor... although make sparring interesting especially with us rookies as we just bounce around waiting for the other to strike
It's really good that you guys are being taught martial arts from a strictly defensive perspective, but to be frankly honest we have to admit that the martial arts were originally designed to hurt, maime and even kill people. They're not called "defensive arts," but martial arts and the word "martial" means "inclined or disposed to war" -- to practice the martial arts is to practice the art of war itself.

I completely agree with learning it as a means of self defence, but at the same time I also acknowledge that most of these techniques were designed for warfare. But that's okay - because it helps to understand how brutal attacks work in order to learn how to adequately defend yourself from them. It doesn't mean you have to or want to use them yourself, but it helps to learn how to defend yourself against them. For example, I can't imagine myself breaking someone's arm, leg, neck or spine (unless they threatened me with lethal force, but even then it wouldn't be my preferred option) - but it doesn't mean I don't learn to defend myself against such brutal attacks.

One thing that I see some martial arts school do - and the school I've recently started training in is guilty of this too - is practice against attacks that are too "gentle" or "kind" (as 5FDP also discussed before, the problem of over-compliant partners in training). It doesn't mean that you should go ape on your training partner, but at the same time I think it's a disservice to let them continue training with the belief that they're successfully countering your attacks when you can see various massive flaws in their technique. e.g. If a throw a punch and a person steps across me while blocking it with their groin exposed, I'm not going to kick them in the nads, but I'll tell them that they're groin is exposed and maybe lift my leg to do a half kick just to illustrate my point, but not make any actual contact.

[Bartrim]

One thing that I see some martial arts school do - and the school I've recently started training in is guilty of this too - is practice against attacks that are too "gentle" or "kind" (as 5FDP also discussed before, the problem of over-compliant partners in training). It doesn't mean that you should go ape on your training partner, but at the same time I think it's a disservice to let them continue training with the belief that they're successfully countering your attacks when you can see various massive flaws in their technique. e.g. If a throw a punch and a person steps across me while blocking it with their groin exposed, I'm not going to kick them in the nads, but I'll tell them that they're groin is exposed and maybe lift my leg to do a half kick just to illustrate my point, but not make any actual contact.

I agree with this. I had this problem at the start as no one in the class was of similar size to me so I had to chop and change partners all the time and as such we were too gentle with each other. Now Mitchell has started class and we are of the same size (actually he is a bit bigger then me) we always partner up together. As such we have gotten a feel for how each other moves and what each other can tolerate as far as how hard we can hit each other we now carry out the exercises with alot more speed and intensity. I feel that sincethis has happened I have improved quicker then what I would of without a regular partner.

[GoktimusPrime]

Training with different partners has its advantages too though. It prevents you from getting too used to one person's particular fighting form - it can be useful to train against various opponents of differing shapes, sizes, strengths, speeds/tempos etc. Even if the person you're training against may feel inferior to you, then that perosn you're training against should be benefitting from training with a superior opponent.

I've seen some schools which only allow their students to train with students of equal status (or as close to as possible), but I think there's a lot to gain by allowing people of different levels to mix and train with each other. A well-trained novice should be able to hold off against an experienced fighter - they may be unlikely to get a hit in or 'win', but they should at very least be able to avoid getting hit themselves, which from a self defence POV is pretty much what you want to fundamentally achieve anyway.

At the same time the more experienced fighter ought to be mentoring the less experienced student as they train - i.e. specifically point out weaknesses and help teach the student how to improve. Or if they don't know how to advise, then do some problem solving and try to work it out. Sometimes when I'm training against a superior opponent, say for example they might put me in a hold that I can't get out of... usually they'll say sorry and offer to restart the exercise again with an easier hold, but I'll ask them to please try the difficult hold again and let me work out how to counter it myself. Cos in a real fight you're not gonna be able to ask the attacker to take it easy on you. ;)

[Hot Rodimus]

Gok I think your last two posts were very informative and spot on.

[GoktimusPrime]

Thanks :)

Looks like my English slipped a bit here...

You don't have to wait for the punch to being as the threat has already been established (and thus you are _already_ under assault).
What I meant to say was, "You don't have to wait for the punch to be thrown as the threat has already been established..." ;) My English is the gooderest. :p

[Bartrim]

Last night we practiced parrying for a while then had to partner up with someone of similar size and play forehead slaps. Due to bad weather hardly anyone was there which meant I got partnered with the Sempai...Needless to say I got my brains scrambled pretty bad. The Sensei got a good laugh out of it. Although I did imoress both of them when we had a grappling session after that and I made a purple belt tap with a wishbone leg lock (I did have a little bit of a size advantage but he won bronze for grappling at the KRMAS nationals so I think it was even).

I'm getting graded again this weekend. Been going for 2 terms and have been graded twice. The Sensei told me last night he was impressed with my determination and commitment.

[Bartrim]

Got my orange belt... very sore but happy:)

Also got to see a brown belt get graded. Apart from the 3 seperate katas he performed he had 10x 2 minute sparring rounds. Geez it was brutal

[5FDP]

Congrats Bartrim :) It's a great feeling getting to the next level isn't it because you have something to show for all your efforts.

[GoktimusPrime]

Good work Bartrim :)

This morning we had a special outdoor training session. It started drizzling about halfway through, but we persevered. Then it started sprinkling as we went through the last form and the instructor sped things up (haha) and just as we finished it started downpouring. So we camped under a nearby pergola having tea and munchies and a social chat... but still getting saturated from the stupid gravity-defying upward rain!! Joy... (;-_-)

[Bartrim]

Thanks guys. This grading was held in the middle of the day instead of in the night because one of the head guys from Sydney was down our way so the heat made it even more gruelling but the reward or the more worthwhile.:)

[GoktimusPrime]

From here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=9702&page=2)


3) Get back into Muay Thai/Brazilian Jiu Jitsu/MMA/Taekwando.
In my experience/observation, if you're primarily interested in learning martial arts for practical self defence, I would recommend BJJ out of that lot. :) But that's just in my personal experience/observation -- if you happen to find those other styles work for you for self defence, then by all means keep training in them.

[ITZTRU]

From here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=9702&page=2)


In my experience/observation, if you're primarily interested in learning martial arts for practical self defence, I would recommend BJJ out of that lot. :) But that's just in my personal experience/observation -- if you happen to find those other styles work for you for self defence, then by all means keep training in them.

Nah it's not actually about self defense for me. It's to maintain my fitness regime. The place I used to train at offered all of these styles (except TKD), plus Karate and Boxing as part of the membership so I just trained in all of them.

Having said that, BJJ is probably by far the art that I was most keen on learning :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Fairy 'nuff. :) BJJ certainly is a very... 'intimate' fighting style. ;) As are all forms of grappling and wrestling really, but it's funny watching people who've never done anything like it get freaked out by the extremely-close personal contact :D

[ITZTRU]

It's also a rather boring (IMO) style to watch in competition. But you blink sometimes and the next thing you know, one opponent taps out and you're left wondering "Wait...what? What just happened?"

It can happen so fast. But I've always been into submission maneuvers. Ever since watching WCW/WWF/WWE since I was a kid :P Which is why it interests me so much.

Can anyone suggest good places to train in Muay Thai between Melb CBD and South East suburbs?

[GoktimusPrime]

It's also a rather boring (IMO) style to watch in competition. But you blink sometimes and the next thing you know, one opponent taps out and you're left wondering "Wait...what? What just happened?" It can happen so fast.
Which, from a self-defence POV, is a good thing. Most of the more effectual fighting styles are actually really boring and dull to watch - that's because they're not designed to entertain an audience, but just to finish a fight as soon as possible. Bushido has a famous saying of "One hit one kill" -- the ideal dream scenario where you can finish a fight in just a single move (highly unlikely, but one should still definitely aim to end the fight in as few moves as possible). This is why I see learning martial arts for self defence and learning it as a competitive sport as two entirely different things.


But I've always been into submission maneuvers. Ever since watching WCW/WWF/WWE since I was a kid :P Which is why it interests me so much.
I dunno about sport fighting, but one good thing about learning submissions, holds, grapples etc. from a self-defence POV is that it's a more passive means of defending yourself (whereas striking/hitting is more aggressive and can potentially put the defender into legal strife if s/he uses excessive force in self defence). That's why police are well trained in submissions and holds - so they can subdue and control an opponent but without actually hitting them. :)

Can't help you with recommending any schools in Melbourne I'm afraid. :(

[ITZTRU]

Yeah I agree with you. I'd never compete in whatever art I choose to train in. It's just not me, or why I'm looking at training. Which is why I think I'm looking at training in two different arts. Muay Thai to help me keep fit and BJJ because I actually have an interest in learning the art.

[Autocon]

i want to learn mai thai(sp) or is there a better self defence? im looking at defending myself against groups of 5 say.

[GoktimusPrime]

Muay Thai is a competitive sport martial art (and Thailand's national sport). If you're interested in self defence, I would personally recommend learning a more traditional style (e.g. Muay Boran (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=357hGHv6sJ8)). But that's just my personal recommendation - it pays to "shop around" and see what works best for you. Most martial arts school offer at least one free trial lesson. :)

Fighting against more than one opponent is an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT thing to do (fighting just 1 vs 1 against a competent opponent is jolly hard enough) and is a more advanced form of fighting, and as such most schools won't teach it until you're more advanced. If you're looking for a style that teaches at least the core principles of multiple opponent fighting from relatively early on, then I'd probably recommend Traditional Long Fist, particularly the Islamic version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRa8_-BSqgA) which was used by Muslim warriors as far out as Turkey during the Crusades. They employ wide sweeping/arcing strikes which serve to improve your upper strength and also generate more force to penetrate an armoured opponent (http://www.mbohbot.com/Empire%20Crusader.jpg). Beware of the "Modern Wushu" styles of Long Fist (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eSbN-1Q1z0) which are designed more for performance entertainment - they have lots of very pretty acrobatic and gymnastic moves which would look great on film, but otherwise fairly useless in a real fight.

But whatever style you choose, the basic rule with fighting multiple opponents is to 'break them down' to fighting one at a time. Never let yourself get caught between two or more people (although if you do, I find Long Fist has techniques to deal with getting caught in between, see 0:28-0:38 of the 2nd video link above). But it's still by no means an ideal situation.

But no matter what, fighting 2 or more opponents is really REALLY hard and extremely dangerous. Always remember that the best form of self defence is to avoid getting into fights. If you're afraid that a group of people are going to attack you (or even concerned that one person wants to attack you), then Contact The Police. (http://www.police.wa.gov.au/ContactUs/tabid/922/Default.aspx) -- you don't need to wait for them to make a move. If you have genuine reasons to be concerned about people wanting to hurt you, you can contact the police and the police may even be able to place an AVO against them on your behalf - at least in NSW they can. For FREE WA legal advice contact Legal Aid (http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/Pages/Default.aspx);
1300 650 579
http://www.legalaid.wa.gov.au/

[Autocon]

just looking for the best self defence style for any kind of situation

[SharkyMcShark]

I'd say the best defence against five opponents AC is learning to, what is referred to in this neck of the woods, "pissbolt".

[Bartrim]

The best thing to do is the first rule we are taught at karate. Avoid the Situation. If there is somewhere you go/hang where people are harrassing you then I would suggest changing where you hang out or contacting the police.

From a technical point I've found the style I learn to be very practical. I study Kumiai-Ryu. We actually had one session last year about being attacked by multiple opponents and how life isn't like a cheesy 80's action flick where they attack one at a time.

http://www.krmas.com.au/mainpage.html

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd say the best defence against five opponents AC is learning to, what is referred to in this neck of the woods, "pissbolt".

Avoid the Situation.
All excellent advice. The best way to survive a fight is to not get into them. :) Self-defence techniques are useful in the unlikely event that avoidance is not an immediate option - i.e. if your attacker is obstructing your nearest exit. Even then, your self-defence should primarily be about making said exit available again then running for it at top speed. ;) Staying around to fight when you don't have to is just stupid.

[GoktimusPrime]

Took some photos yesterday of Animated Rodimus doing various kicks. The names of kicks may vary from other styles/schools, but I'm just gonna use the names I'm familiar with. :)

Heel Stomp Kick
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_front.jpg Similar to the Front Kick or Forward Kick, only that it impacts with the heel of the foot, not the ball.

Side Kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_side.jpg The kicking foot should be rolled over so that the side of the foot is in contact, but the limited articulation of the toy's foot doesn't allow me to do that. :p

Shin Kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_shin.jpg

Lift Kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_lift.jpg My favourite. :D

Door Shutting Kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_doorshut.jpg aka Roundhouse Kick

Backward/Reverse Whipping Kick:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/anirod_kick_revwhip.jpg

[Autocon]

whats the best way to gather strength in your kicks and punches? building muscles or repeated action? both?

the whipping kick looks hard to produce strength behind it to do any damage

[GoktimusPrime]

whats the best way to gather strength in your kicks and punches? building muscles or repeated action? both?
Both. Buy yourself some velcro strap on wrist/ankle weights (http://www.gymworld.co.uk/media/catalog/product/2/5/2545_2.jpg) and wear them during training.


the whipping kick looks hard to produce strength behind it to do any damage
Not all kicks are necessarily used for striking. The whipping kick is used as a 'dumping' move - typically preceded by hooking your foot behind an opponent's whilst simultaneously placing your hand on their shoulder, then simultaneously sweeping the leg back while tilting forward and pushing forward hard on the shoulder (hence why Rodimus' left arm is pointing forward)... you're then pushing the opponent through their centre of gravity (what some martial artists refer to as the Dan'tian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dantian)).