Hasbro bans KOs & 3rd party goods at Botcon

[kup]

As the title says, Hasbro has finally taken a stand in regards to Knock offs and Unofficial toys at Botcon.

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/3rd-party-ban-at-botcon-2012/24308/

Although this is only affecting dealers at Botcon, at least they are taking a stand. Hopefully the 3rd party movement success has opened their eyes and allowed them to acknowledge that quality collector focused toys can be profitable and a good market to exploit with the right items.

...On the other hand, they may be all bark and no bite and nothing will really change

[The_Damned]

why is this topic doubled up?

[griffin]

It isn't... ;)

[griffin]

...On the other hand, they may be all bark and no bite and nothing will really change

This is exactly what I expect will happen... as it happened with KOs - they issued a stern warning 2-3 years ago for BotCon about counterfeit toys, and then we saw nothing from them about it from then on.

[5FDP]

Without trying to spark a debate on KO's and 3rd party items, I agree with this move completely. It's their con therefore they have every right to dictate what is sold / displayed there. If people don't like it, don't go.

[MindsetOverhaul]

I'm all for 3rd Party and 100% against KOs. Ar$3holes trying to get bucks from thieving other peoples intellectual properties $h!7 me to no end.
It's good to hear they're getting cracked down on, i only hope they do a thorough and proper job of it!
It's kindof a shame that 3rd party stuffs might have to cop some on the chin through all of this. I think these conventions should celebrate all things transformers related. A handful of these 3/P-companies actually make great contributions to our capitalist hobby and shouldn't be ignored. I do however accept that 3/P dealer booths may not be allowed that's plenty fair enough but having said that, i'd prefer to see them stay.

[Doubledealer]

I'm all for 3rd Party and 100% against KOs. Ar$3holes trying to get bucks from thieving other peoples intellectual properties $h!7 me to no end.

Are you suggesting that 3rd party companies don't infringe on Hasbro and Takara's intellectual property? :/

[SkyWarp91]

The question now is would 3rd party sellers set up shop like 5m outside Botcon?

[Quickstrike]

They'll sell their stuff across the road at Robot Convention.

[kup]

They'll sell their stuff across the road at Robot Convention.

Given the current climate, it wouldn't surprise me if the 'Robot Convention' dealer room ends up overshadowing Botcon's after a couple of years.

Hasbro should be smart enough to recognize what is missing in their current business plan and adjust to compensate.

[MindsetOverhaul]

Are you suggesting that 3rd party companies don't infringe on Hasbro and Takara's intellectual property? :/

nope.

EDIT: i think i know what you're alluding to and if so, i get it.

imo, most 3rd party stuff is just junk. Some of it REEEALLY f#@king sucks, and some of it crosses my makeshift moral margins regarding the whole subject. anyhow, there's a big difference between producing KOs and "infringing" upon HasTaks' intellectual property ie; scratch-building a transformable toy in the likeness of Transformers brand character. shi7 tonne of grey area

[King Atlas]

This doesn't affect me whatsoever. So much butthurt on those forums, sad and hilarious at the same time.

I'd be happy just having a convention, be it official or unofficial (big or small wouldn't matter).

[Hursticon]

This doesn't affect me whatsoever. So much butthurt on those forums, sad and hilarious at the same time.

I'd be happy just having a convention, be it official or unofficial (big or small wouldn't matter).

That's very much the way I feel too dude, such a pity that what was a constructive thread (In the case of TFW2005) descended into such a cesspool of ridiculousness - Botcon is Hasbro property, they have the right to dictate what does and doesn't occur there and I feel this move is for the benefit of all those in attendance; unfortunately it'll be quite some time before I'm one of those people. :o

[GoktimusPrime]

Another thing is... it is a federal offence* in the U.S.A. to sell goods that infringe on someone's intellectual property, such as counterfeits. So if Hasbro and/or FunPub decide to enforce a policy that cracks down on it - hey, they're actually helping to enforce the law. And ultimately if people don't follow the rules, then Hasbro's fully within their right to take legal action against them.

Ultimately law-abiding sellers & collectors who don't buy unlicensed toys have nothing to fear. So I'm all good. :D



imo, most 3rd party stuff is just junk. Some of it REEEALLY f#@king sucks, and some of it crosses my makeshift moral margins regarding the whole subject. anyhow, there's a big difference between producing KOs and "infringing" upon HasTaks' intellectual property ie; scratch-building a transformable toy in the likeness of Transformers brand character. shi7 tonne of grey area
I agree that the 3rd party TFs are a "lesser evil" over KOs because they're not attempting to deceive people into believing that they're the real product, but even scratch-built Not-Transformer toys are still ripping off Hasbro's intellectual property because they're using the character image/likeness which they own. Some may be different looking enough to technically get away with it... but others, like Not-Arcee, are so dead-on accurate with the character likeness that if Hasbro were to take those producers to court... well I hope those producers have a good lawyer.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/shortpacked/shortpacked_fansproject.png

-----------------------------------------------------------
*Trademark Counterfeiting Act 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_Counterfeiting_Act_of_1984)

[Doubledealer]

scratch-built Not-Transformer toys are still ripping off Hasbro's intellectual property because they're using the character image/likeness which they own.

Zactly right Gok. :)

[kup]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/shortpacked/shortpacked_fansproject.png

-----------------------------------------------------------
*Trademark Counterfeiting Act 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_Counterfeiting_Act_of_1984)

That comic is spot on what is wrong with Hasbro rather than the third parties.

FansProject had originally announced a 'not-Wreckgar' simply because Hasbro had not revisited the character (G1) for over 20 years. However when Hasbro finally released their version, FP quietly cancelled their release as they knew they could not compete with the official article when it comes to price and availability, specially when it wasn't bad but rather a good 'Classics' tribute - Sadly the same cannot be said about Hasbro's new Bruticus :rolleyes:

As I said before, if Hasbro made more stuff that was appealing to the collector market, there would be no need for 3rd parties. Only they have the power to stop the 3rd party movement but it won't be done with 'banning' or 'confiscating' toys but by acknowledging that there is money to be made from collectors with the right toys.

I support the 3rd party movement because they cater to what I like as a collector while Hasbro has not been making much that is appealing to me for a number of years now.

Hasbro has every right to ban unofficial toys at Botcon so no complaint from me on that but it's their neglect that caused 3rd parties exist to begin with. As long as Hasbro continues to neglect the collector market, 3rd parties will exist and as long as they exist, they have my support.

[Doubledealer]

kup, Hasbro does make stuff that is appealing to the collector market, here's one example: The Classics line. We've seen plenty of updates to fan-favourite characters over the last few years, and I'm sure we'll see plenty more in the future. Just because Hasbro hasn't released a Classics Ultra Magnus, Kickback or whatever yet, it doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future. We seem to be quite an impatient bunch these days wanting everything now and if we can't get it now then we buy the thing that someone else has made just to scratch that itch. I'm glad Hasbro take their time releasing these toys, it's all about the journey. :)

[gavnushkatron]

All Hail the king! :p

No seriously, as a collector I loathe KO's. And as to 3rd party stuff, well I am biased due to the lack of knowledge!

[kup]

kup, Hasbro does make stuff that is appealing to the collector market, here's one example: The Classics line. We've seen plenty of updates to fan-favourite characters over the last few years, and I'm sure we'll see plenty more in the future. Just because Hasbro hasn't released a Classics Ultra Magnus, Kickback or whatever yet, it doesn't mean they won't at some point in the future. We seem to be quite an impatient bunch these days wanting everything now and if we can't get it now then we buy the thing that someone else has made just to scratch that itch. I'm glad Hasbro take their time releasing these toys, it's all about the journey. :)

Hasbro's Bruticus, look how that turned out.

Sorry but I have lost a lot of faith in Hasbro producing toys that I want as a collector and the Classics are too few to really make an impact.

If you don't care for movie or prime lines, there really isn't really much to choose from. The 3rd parties are the ones maintaining my interest.

Maybe some day what you say will happen and we will see Hasbro producing stuff as good as the 3rd parties but I seriously doubt it.

Don't forget that my stance and reasoning remains that the 3rd parties are the consequence of Hasbro neglecting the collector community. Business wise, they left a gap which the 3rd parties filled successfully. If Hasbro had not left that gap wide open, 3rd parties would not have any room to exist. Obviously the 3rd parties are providing something people want that Hasbro is not.

Hasbro could close that gap with matching products and make everyone happy (including myself) which will mean the end of the 3rd party movement but I seriously doubt they are up to it.

[griffin]

One of the unofficial TFs conventions (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/dairycons-stance-on-3rd-party-items/24313/) in America have already jumped on the negativity of this, in a mocking way, to rub it in the face of BotCon/Hasbro of their acceptance of non-TFs items.

One person pointed out something important (which further makes me feel bad for FunPub being caught in the middle), that the Official Club are advertised on all Transformers toys, so are obligated to not support businesses that Hasbro doesn't approve of. It's just taken longer than it should have for Hasbro to finally force FunPub to take action on it... making FunPub look like the bad guys. (and lose attendees to the unofficial conventions)

[Sleeve]

How I feel every day:

http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/2011-12-09-scrolling.png

[griffin]

That's so true... :(

[SharkyMcShark]

neglecting


neglect


neglected


neglected


neglected


neglected

You're nothing if not consistent.

[kup]

You're nothing if not consistent.

I know I am ;)

To built on that consistency, the comic above is interesting in the sense of 'Why do 3rd party stuff dominate the news sections rather than official stuff?'

Sounds like a result of Hasbro practicing the N word again...

[dirge]

I blame kup for... neglect? :p

Okay, on a more serious note... I can understand Hasbro's stance but you do have to wonder how switched on they are having taken so long to crack down on this.

I've been collecting Transformers long enough to not complain. Sure, there are some characters I'd love to see Classics-ised (Gears, Skids, Smurfette) but I can recall eras such as the time of Transmetal IIs, where things were dire & uninspiring. While I'm just as jaded by the 47,224 movie Bumblebees as the next guy, I'll be content with the classics toys we do get (although I would like to see more focus on that line). Content enough to not buy the unofficial stuff, anyway.

[kup]

Since this thread has gone a bit wider than what the core subject here is, just to be clear, this is how I stand in regards to 'no unofficial stuff at Botcon':

From TFW (I am Predacon):



Hasbro has every right to ban unofficial stuff at Botcon - It's their convention after all.

This is not open to debate regardless of which side of the fence you sit in. It's a Hasbro hosted event, what they say goes.

BTW: I am an avid 3rd party supporter but despite so, I can understand that Hasbro has every right to determine what is and isn't sold at their convention provided they give proper warning which they have.


that is the whole crux about this....they did not provide adequate warning....adequate warning would have been at last years botcon( a large mega corp does not make decisions like this quickly) ....

NOT THE MONTH BEFORE THE CONVENTION TICKETS GO ON SALE.


This is their convention and a month's warning is more than enough. If people were relying on buying or selling unofficial toys at botcon then that's not Hasbro's or FunPub's problem.

[primatives]

hehe hasbro can do what they want as it is their convention Im not going to be at any botcon anytime soon. I'd rather go to that singapore one if i read correctly attracts much more people and closer to us!! Dont care if no 3rd party items arent allowed at the convention because if i like it i'll just get it online :p

Whilst I understand Hasbro can't cater to us oldies or me at least that wants updated g1 characters, their target market are small kids and imo we're just a small market for them. Yeah they may make or release characters we want eventually until then if the 3rd party companies can pump out good quality items then I'll just buy it. I'm not really interested in the movie or prime lines other than the classics :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Even though I don't support unlicensed toys, I can understand the frustration that people like kup feel. There IS undeniably a demand for Classicsverse versions of classic G1 characters. Whenever Hasbro releases them, fans scoop them up post haste! But when they don't release them and someone else does - even at much more expensive prices - people are buying them.

From a business POV Hasbro shouldn't be sitting on their laurels and hoping that fans will be patient -- they should be getting their butts into overdrive and developing/releasing these toys into the market. Hasbro are happy to develop and release shelf warming toys like Stealth Force, Cyber Slammers and endless Bumblebees and Optimus Primes; yet if they released new Classicsverse toys I'd wager they'd sell better. And as Sky Shadow pointed out on this thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=13165) they can keep it within budget by retooling a several moulds for different characters (as they have in the past).

The third party folks are satisfying a consumer demand. Are they doing it illegitimately? Yes - that's why I won't support them. But as kup said, the best way for Hasbro to combat this is to satisfy the consumer demand themselves. If Hasbro released a Generations G1 Arcee toy now I would buy it in a heartbeat as well as so many other G1 characters that are "waiting" for the Classicsverse treatment.

Banning people from selling unlicensed toys at conventions is only treating the symptom but not the cause of the problem. Third party folks will just find somewhere else to sell their wares (like the internet)

[kup]

If Hasbro released a Generations G1 Arcee toy now I would buy it in a heartbeat as well as so many other G1 characters that are "waiting" for the Classicsverse treatment.

So true. Hasbro releases a decent Classics Arcee and that will be the end of 3rd party Arcees. There is a precedent to this as the release of a decent Hasbro Classics Wreckgar put a stop to the unofficial one and the 3rd parties have not really visited the character (or resemblance of him) again. However I need to stress the word 'decent' as Hasbro's sorry attempts at Springer resulted in Defender.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

The third party folks are satisfying a consumer demand. Are they doing it illegitimately? Yes - that's why I won't support them.See, I always find this particular argument to be interesting. Outright KOs and Igear resizings aside (neither of which I personally support), it seems to me that the legitmacy of said 3rd party products is very much down to the actual legal stuff - much like HasTak themselves often makes a practice of doing alt-modes with 'just-generic-enough' vehicle modes to avoid paying licensing fees. City Commander might obviously be based on Ultra Magnus, but from a legalese viewpoint if it passes the just-different-enough test it's legit, albeit not strictly a Transformer.
From a moral POV, I'd probably be more sympathetic to the IP theft argument if the stuff that was being done by 3rd Parties wasn;t stuff that HasTak doesn't seem to be interested in doing (because they're not going after the collector market in any big way), and if the stuff that's being done by said 3rd parties wasn't mostly revamping characters birthed from old Diaclone and Microman molds. For sure, Hasbro bought them legally, but again that's a matter of law. For my part at least HasTak hasn't lost any sales over any 3rd party stuff - the only practical difference is one or two of my particular collecting itches have been scratched.

Botcon? Yeah, Hasbro can ban whatever it wants - it's their baby. General '3rd Party stuff is bad mm'kay?' Well, that's between HsTak, the 3rd party producers, their respective lawyers, me, and my wallet, and so far me and my wallet are winning and losing.

[GoktimusPrime]

The word legitimate means "according to the law", so any product not manufactured under licence from HasTak is, by definition, illegitimate. I'm not passing a value judgement when I refer to these toys as illegit... that's just what they are as unlicensed products. I do agree that third party stuff that's less similar looking are more legally ambiguous... Hasbro would probably have better odds suing the makers of Not-Arcee than say City Commander.

[Gouki]

It's always amusing to see just how entitled Transformers fans seem to feel they are.

[Gutsman Heavy]

It's always amusing to see just how entitled Transformers fans seem to feel they are.

Welcome to every fandom ever :p

[SharkyMcShark]

We need a TFW2005 Goes Into Meltdown thread

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Oh God, check out the TFW2005 PRiDE Arcee review thread (http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-feedback/549242-prime-rid-deluxe-arcee-46.html). Amazing.

[Quickstrike]

The term "cesspool of ridiculousness" was used earlier in this thread. I think that's a pretty good description of TFW2005 nowadays.

[griffin]

Oh God, check out the TFW2005 PRiDE Arcee review thread (http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-feedback/549242-prime-rid-deluxe-arcee-46.html). Amazing.

A moderator has posted that the topic has been cleaned up, so I'm guessing that you were referring to some degenerated negativity there.


Just as a note to everyone - I don't want us to be seen stirring up trouble or making fun of other fan communities. I know that we are probably the most inviting, least trolling/abusive Transfan community, but we shouldn't really be labelling others with negative, derogatory terms.
I don't want to risk having our site, or the members here who like interacting at those other sites, being black-listed there.
(in other words, please refrain from posting links to their topics that aren't news-worthy)

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Sorry Chief.:o

It was basically a disagreement about whether Arcee's chest-panels become the front of her bike and vice-versa that had turned into a three-to-four-page flame war between two posters about how juvenile they each were for responding to the other.

[griffin]

It's alright... I get frustrated as well when browsing the global/US fan-forums for news articles, so I have to be careful with my own comments. :o

[UltraMarginal]

This is an interesting development, ther were several tables at botcon last year that sold predominantly 3rd party merch. There was also a particular stall that was all KO stuff and a lot of it was easily confusable with the real deal. for example G1 dinobots.:mad:


I think Hasbro are fully justified in making this decision, it's going to make a lot or work for FunPub during the convention. It will most likely promote a black market at the convention as well.

I am fascinated by the claims that HasTak have promoted the third party market by not producing what the fans want. There are always elements of the franchise that people aren't going to be happy with, and there will always be a market for third party items, just look at the automotive market, and what you'll find down at your local autocheap store. a huge proportion of car accessories are not manufactured by the OEM (Original Equipment manufacturer) some stuff is licensed but a lot isn't.

Sure making a generations wreckgar put a stop to there being a third party wreckgar in the short term, but how many Megbatrons have come up on the radar in the last couple months and we already have a masterpiece megatron and multiple versions of classics megatrons. some great and some not.

just because hastak haven't produced a good springer yet doesn't mean they won't in the next few years. Some toys are produced just to keep the dcopyright to the name active. Sure the Warbot defender was fairly good, but I hold out hope that there will be a generations Springer and with luck, it'll be sweet as.
HasTak probably won't produce anything as large as the Hercules version of Devastator, I doubt it would pass any version of their drop test, but then there is a rumour that they are doing a re-issue of Fortress Maximus so you never can tell, up untill that news I would have argued that the Hercules toys were filling a small gap in the market the HasTak would never care to try and fill as a legitimate retailer.

I think it's the right of HasTak to defend their IP however they like, within the law, but I'm not sure that making add-ons and accessories for collectors (which is something that just cannot fit in a mainstream retailers business model) is stealing on behalf of the third parties. If anything it promotes sales and aftermarket value of official products.

Rant done.:rolleyes:

[kup]

just because hastak haven't produced a good springer yet doesn't mean they won't in the next few years. Some toys are produced just to keep the dcopyright to the name active. Sure the Warbot defender was fairly good, but I hold out hope that there will be a generations Springer and with luck, it'll be sweet as.

The thing is why do I want to wait 'years' for a 'what if' that may never happen when I have an excellent representation of a 'Classics Springer' right now available for me to buy that is likely to be better than anything Has-Tak can produce?

It is available for me now, it is good and it triple changes! The only reasons that I can think of anyone not wanting it is: 'a) unaffordable/too costly' or 'b) Not an official product' and both of them are purely subjective.

For those like me who can afford it and not worried about 'officialism' but a good representation of the character (and not a KO), the 3rd parties are providing what fans want and Hasbro is not. I believe that the 3rd party explosion is a result of that otherwise it would have been just as prevalent before City Commander as after it.

...City Commander..an upgrade kit that came about because HasTak's idea of Ultra Magnus was just to release white primes...

[Sky Shadow]

The thing is why do I want to wait 'years' for a 'what if' that may never happen when I have an excellent representation of a 'Classics Springer' right now available for me to buy that is likely to be better than anything Has-Tak can produce?

It is available for me now, it is good and it triple changes! The only reasons that I can think of anyone not wanting it is: 'a) unaffordable/too costly' or 'b) Not an official product' and both of them are purely subjective.

"Not an official product" isn't subjective, Kup. :)

What I notice is somewhat interesting is that a lot of the people here who aren't interested in third-party toys (Griffin, Goktimus, me, etc.) are ones who have never taken a real break from Transformers toys since day one in the eighties. And I think one of the reasons is that there's no real urgency to our collecting - consciously or subconsciously we accept that Hasbro may or may not eventually get around to doing things, but we don't need the immediate gratification of having the things they haven't done yet. What we do get from HasbroTakaraTomy is amazing enough - we never thought we'd get a Straxus mould, or Bludgeon that came with samurai swords, or a Nightstalker toy etc. and yet we now have them twenty years later. What we get from HasTakTom is amazing.

On the other hand, Kup - you've completed your US G1 collection in record time and perhaps it seems like you are being 'neglected' because not everything exists "right now".

People aren't stealing Hasbro's intellectual property because it 'neglects' us, they do it because they make money out of it.

[kup]

"Not an official product" isn't subjective, Kup. :)


But choosing to add it or not to add it into your collection is and that is what I am saying ;)




People aren't stealing Hasbro's intellectual property because it 'neglects' us, they do it because they make money out of it.

I don't think the money making side of it is in question. The point is that they are able to make money because there is demand for the stuff they sell which Hasbro is not adequately satisfying.

When it comes to 'patience', again, I don't care about waiting 20 years for something that may or may not happen when I have a perfectly good alternative 'existing' right now. Since I don't have any misgivings or ideologies about a lack of officialism, I can buy it and enjoy it. My collecting ideology is not about officialism but of a good representation of G1 characters which to me, the 3rd parties are hitting the mark a lot more than Hasbro.

I don't find several of the current official toys as 'Amazing'. MP Rodimus was a mess and the upcoming Bruticus is lacking. However for the toys that I consider Hasbro to have made right, I don't care to buy a 3rd party alternative for. An example would be the IGear Ironhide and Ratchet, I don't care to buy them because I am happy with the Henkei ones.

[GoktimusPrime]

just because hastak haven't produced a good springer yet doesn't mean they won't in the next few years.

Sure the Warbot defender was fairly good, but I hold out hope that there will be a generations Springer and with luck, it'll be sweet as.
Some fans may not hold as much faith in Hasbro and would rather get a Warbot Defender than risk trusting Hasbro. I wouldn't hold my breath for a HasTak Springer - but I'm not "desperate" enough to get a WD either. If HasTak releases one then I'll grab it for sure, but if they don't then oh well... I'm no worse off. :o :)


HasTak probably won't produce anything as large as the Hercules version of Devastator, I doubt it would pass any version of their drop test, but then there is a rumour that they are doing a re-issue of Fortress Maximus so you never can tell,
Fort Max mould already failed the current drop test, that's why they couldn't release RiD Fortress Maximus (Brave Maximus). TakaraTOMY could reissue Fortress Maximus, but I've heard that the larger reissues have shelf warmed. I still saw some of the larger Encore toys when I was Japan earlier this year.


I think it's the right of HasTak to defend their IP however they like, within the law, but I'm not sure that making add-ons and accessories for collectors (which is something that just cannot fit in a mainstream retailers business model) is stealing on behalf of the third parties. If anything it promotes sales and aftermarket value of official products.
I agree. I personally see the third party products as having a symbiotic relationship with HasTak's Transformers as both parties benefit (e.g. the accessory kit for Reveal The Shield Deluxe "G2" Optimus Prime), whereas 3rd party action figures (e.g. Not-Arcee etc.) are parasitic - they profit from using Hasbro's IP likeness but Hasbro doesn't benefit from it.


What I notice is somewhat interesting is that a lot of the people here who aren't interested in third-party toys (Griffin, Goktimus, me, etc.) are ones who have never taken a real break from Transformers toys since day one in the eighties. And I think one of the reasons is that there's no real urgency to our collecting - consciously or subconsciously we accept that Hasbro may or may not eventually get around to doing things, but we don't need the immediate gratification of having the things they haven't done yet. What we do get from HasbroTakaraTomy is amazing enough - we never thought we'd get a Straxus mould, or Bludgeon that came with samurai swords, or a Nightstalker toy etc. and yet we now have them twenty years later. What we get from HasTakTom is amazing.
That's a pretty cool observation there. :) I'd never thought of it before, but now that you mention it I think you're right.


People aren't stealing Hasbro's intellectual property because it 'neglects' us, they do it because they make money out of it.
If third party makers were doing it for the fandom, then they'd sell the products at cost (only charging enough to recoup cost of production).

[kup]

Another point to discuss:

Why do people who do not collect or are against 3rd party toys think that people who do are doing so because they are "desperate" to get the character or any toys? I am not desperate and don't know of any other 3rd party collector who is, I am getting it because it's available and I like it.

A non-TF example:

I really like the MOTU characters of Buzz-Off, Roboto and Clawful but I did not buy their MOTUC figures. Yes, I would really love to see fully articulated modern takes on those characters but I found their MOTUC figures to be lacking when it comes to my own tastes so I did not buy them. Since there are no 3rd parties that I am aware of for MOTUC figures, I am fine to be without those characters than official toys that I don't like - Mattel does not get my money.

On the other hand, if a MOTU 'inspired' 3rd party appears which sells new figures or upgrades for those characters that match my expectations, I would start to buy them. If it's 3rd party upgrades, both Mattel and the 3rd parties benefit because I will be buying both. If it's a complete 3rd party figure, I will buy that one instead of Mattel's.

To re-apply the same mentality back to TFs - I had absolutely no interest in the RTS G2 Prime. I simply wasn't interested at all. However when I saw the Battle Tanker upgrade complete with a trailer and functioning 'laser' sword, it prompted me to immediately seek out the official toy. If it wasn't for the upgrade, I would have done without an RTS G2 Prime and not think twice about it as I have other official (and unofficial) toys of characters that I don't have which did not meet my expectations.

It's not about being "desperate" but rather someone selling me something that I like without having any misgivings if it's official or not. If that guy wasn't selling that something and Hasbro wasn't either then it would simply mean no purchase at all just as I have no current MOTUC Clawful, Buzz-off and Roboto despite me wanting toys of those characters very much.

[Prowl]

My collecting ideology is not about officialism but of a good representation of G1 characters which to me, the 3rd parties are hitting the mark a lot more than Hasbro.


That says it all to me. Now 90% of my collection is official but if a well done 3rd party product (not KO) is offered to me then I will buy it without guilt or hesitation. I understand those who only buy official products & if that is their stance then fine by me.

The FP non insecticons is a great example as I don't believe that Hasbro would ever release robots that transform into insects. That is not cool now & as a kid it was never cool.

[kup]

That says it all to me. Now 90% of my collection is official but if a well done 3rd party product (not KO) is offered to me then I will buy it without guilt or hesitation. I understand those who only buy official products & if that is their stance then fine by me.

The FP non insecticons is a great example as I don't believe that Hasbro would ever release robots that transform into insects. That is not cool now & as a kid it was never cool.

To be fair, they have recently released a transformer that turns into an insect but it is hardly a representation of the G1 Insecticons:

http://www.yahobby.com/products4/tf_rotf_scout_insecticon_a.jpg

I was looking at my collection and despite my liking of 3rd party toys and the perception that I prefer them over official toys; only about 3% (5% at the very most) are unofficial.

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't believe that Hasbro would ever release robots that transform into insects.
I (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Insecticon_%28BW%29) b (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Insecticon_%28Energon%29)e (http://jebr0nie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/toys-reissue-insecticons.jpg)g (http://www.krazykingsoftoys.com/images/detailed/1/Transformers-Animated-Deluxe-Blackarachnia-%28Box%29.jpg) to (http://www.tfu.info/2009/Decepticon/Waspinator/carded.jpg) dif (http://tfu.info/2010/Decepticon/Insecticon/carded.jpg)fer (http://www.seibertron.com/images/toys/files/35/r_reissuewaspinator001.jpg) :) (http://cybertron.grantgarrison.com/images/8110535b8b73_B400.jpg)

[Prowl]

I (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Insecticon_%28BW%29) b (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Insecticon_%28Energon%29)e (http://jebr0nie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/toys-reissue-insecticons.jpg)g (http://www.krazykingsoftoys.com/images/detailed/1/Transformers-Animated-Deluxe-Blackarachnia-%28Box%29.jpg) to (http://www.tfu.info/2009/Decepticon/Waspinator/carded.jpg) dif (http://tfu.info/2010/Decepticon/Insecticon/carded.jpg)fer (http://www.seibertron.com/images/toys/files/35/r_reissuewaspinator001.jpg) :) (http://cybertron.grantgarrison.com/images/8110535b8b73_B400.jpg)

Prowl has egg on his face. Of course I know about the beast wars & animated figures I was referring to a generations release of the original insecticons more than anything. I should have been clearer in my opinion.

I am pretty sure that my non insecticons are my only 3rd party items out of 100 or so transformers & they fill a space nicely for me.

[kup]

Here is another new example of the 'symbiotic' relationship that Gok was referring to when it comes to 3rd party upgrades:

Although I acknowledge them as pretty decent molds, I never had an interest in buying a DOTF Skyhammer and certainly no desire for a ROTF Mindwipe.

However after Headrobots announced their latest Alpha prototypes now I am strongly thinking about buying those molds that originally never got my attention. If Hasbro releases repaints of them, it will be a pretty good bet that I will indeed buy them when otherwise, I wouldn't have looked at them twice (or at all).

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/headrobots-next-generation-darksol-savant-courageous/24354/

Now depending on how well received these upgrades are, it will create extra demand for those official molds than previously.

[SharkyMcShark]

I don't think that that would qualify as a symbiotic relationship - you can't get Mindwipe direct from retail anymore, you'd be buying him from a fellow fan or Internet reseller, so it's not like Hasbro would be part of the transaction. Skyhammer is newer so you may have a bit more luck with him but the point still stands.

Even if head robots were making a run of 10000 heads, which is 5-10 times as many as they make, and all of the 10000 people buying needed a fresh Skyhammer or Mindwipe it still wouldn't be enough of a profit to justify Hasbro shoe horning them in to one of the existing lines again.

[kup]

I don't think that that would qualify as a symbiotic relationship - you can't get Mindwipe direct from retail anymore, you'd be buying him from a fellow fan or Internet reseller, so it's not like Hasbro would be part of the transaction. Skyhammer is newer so you may have a bit more luck with him but the point still stands.

Even if head robots were making a run of 10000 heads, which is 5-10 times as many as they make, and all of the 10000 people buying needed a fresh Skyhammer or Mindwipe it still wouldn't be enough of a profit to justify Hasbro shoe horning them in to one of the existing lines again.

It doesn't matter if it's 2% or less. There would still be new sales that otherwise would not have occurred.

Mindwipe and Skyhammer may no longer be in retail but knowing Hasbro, they are likely to re-use the molds sometime in the future and although it may be 'minuscule' as you implied, there may still be an increase of sales due to the upgrade kit. Plus no one is saying that Hasbro would re-release those molds based on the new kit, they don't really seem to pay attention to what is released by 3rd parties anyways just that the market exists.

When 'Hot Head' was announced, the Hasbro Universe Hard Head repaints were still on shelves. After the announcement, they sold a fair bit of them and ebay prices increased considerably showing demand (even though that is secondary market).

1%, 2%? It doesn't matter, the point is that 3rd party upgrade kits do appear to promote increased demand and awareness for Hasbro products, some which would have otherwise had a long shelf life like the Universe/ROTF Bruticus Maximus repaints.

[heroic_decepticon]

When 'Hot Head' was announced, the Hasbro Universe Hard Head repaints were still on shelves. After the announcement, they sold a fair bit of them and ebay prices increased considerably showing demand (even though that is secondary market).

1%, 2%? It doesn't matter, the point is that 3rd party upgrade kits do appear to promote increased demand and awareness for Hasbro products, some which would have otherwise had a long shelf life like the Universe/ROTF Bruticus Maximus repaints.

sounds like a sound argument. If not for Headrobots, I would never have picked up Universe Hardhead.

[Paulbot]

Skyhammer is a great figure. Easily the best DOTM toy IMHO. It doesn't need to be forced into a G1 homage to be worth buying.

[kup]

Skyhammer is a great figure. Easily the best DOTM toy IMHO. It doesn't need to be forced into a G1 homage to be worth buying.

I agree, it is a great figure but since I don't know anything about the character and don't really care about the universe he is from, I didn't buy him. Now this upgrade kit gives me reason to seek him out.



sounds like a sound argument. If not for Headrobots, I would never have picked up Universe Hardhead.

When Universe Hardhead was first announced, I dismissed it as another worthless repaint but after the upgrade kit was announced, it was at the top of my list of toys to buy. Now I am proud to own him and display him in my collection.

[SharkyMcShark]

Skyhammer is a great figure. Easily the best DOTM toy IMHO. It doesn't need to be forced into a G1 homage to be worth buying.

To be fair that's akin to being least gammy in a pack of lepers.

[griffin]

1%, 2%? It doesn't matter, the point is that 3rd party upgrade kits do appear to promote increased demand and awareness for Hasbro products, some which would have otherwise had a long shelf life like the Universe/ROTF Bruticus Maximus repaints.

Those percentages might well be negligible for a general release item, even if the add-on was released during Hasbro's product's release... but I'd like to see the add-ons targeting items that shelfwarm, otherwise it's not going to be of any benefit to us & Hasbro, as stores still still be stuck with the same stock that prevents them reordering anyway. And the add-ons sometimes target limited-edition items - making it impossible for collectors of "untouched/pure" toys, to be able to afford them.
I really wanted the Henkei Wildrider, as it's the only Gen1 Henkei that I'm missing - but when the redeco Rodimus trailer add-on was released, the price jumped from a "standard" $200 to $600 overnight, and has never come back down. I was willing to allow for a desperate splurge at $200 (at a future BotCon to at least save on shipping), but not at $600.

The same happened with Classics Ultra Magnus, making it more expensive for new fans of TFs or even Classicverse, of that toy to complete the Gen1 set, which was already a hard enough toy to find due to its limited release.
I'm guessing the same probably happened with the Hardhead toy and Aerialbots, but at least with those ones and the latest "Headmaster" add-ons, less newbies were likely to come back to them, as the Movie toys aren't as popular as Classicverse. Most of those who will be fighting over those toys on the secondary market will be those wanting to modify them with these add-ons.

Some fans will indeed benefit from the add-ons enhancing their toys, but others will suffer from paying out more for those toys, especially if they don't intend to get the add-ons.

[kup]

Some fans will indeed benefit from the add-ons enhancing their toys, but others will suffer from paying out more for those toys, especially if they don't intend to get the add-ons.

I cannot argue against that, it is a perfectly reasonable and valid point but like all things in life there are always some who benefit and some that will not.

With just the Upgrade kit, the Shadow Scythe set was valued to around $1000 so it's not just the buyers of official toys that miss out due to demand but a bit of a universal circumstance.

I have too missed out on official toys which value was drastically increased due to demand from high end collectors which were committed to pay a premium. Those official toys didn't necessarily need a 3rd party upgrade to drive their value up. It can happen to anything regardless of 3rd party upgrades or not, it's all about supply and demand.

[Prowl]

The same happened with Classics Ultra Magnus, making it more expensive for new fans of TFs or even Classicverse, of that toy to complete the Gen1 set, which was already a hard enough toy to find due to its limited release.


That alone should be a signal to Hasbro that there is market demand for certain lines to be rereleased such as Ultra Magnus, Ironhide, Ratchet & Skywarp being prime examples.

Then again if Hasbro did UM properly in the first place then 3rd parties would not have made kits to do the original mold justice.

[kup]

That alone should be a signal to Hasbro that there is market demand for certain lines to be rereleased such as Ultra Magnus, Ironhide, Ratchet & Skywarp being prime examples.

Then again if Hasbro did UM properly in the first place then 3rd parties would not have made kits to do the original mold justice.

I totally agree with what you are saying about Ultra Magnus but I am unsure of what you mean with the other characters as Has-Tak-Tom has done a decent Ironhide, Ratchet and Skywarp already.

[Sky Shadow]

I totally agree with what you are saying about Ultra Magnus but I am unsure of what you mean with the other characters as Has-Tak-Tom has done a decent Ironhide, Ratchet and Skywarp already.

Prowl is saying that they need to be rereleased. I'm not sure about Ironhide, Magnus and Skywarp as they were shelfwarmers, but certainly Ratchet deserved a wider release.

[Prowl]

I totally agree with what you are saying about Ultra Magnus but I am unsure of what you mean with the other characters as Has-Tak-Tom has done a decent Ironhide, Ratchet and Skywarp already.

No no I am saying that there is a market for them to be rereleased. that is if I go by looking at the aftermarket pricing for these figures nowdays.

If they did a rerelease I am sure plenty would be snapped up by fans especially at regular retail pricing.

[Prowl]

Prowl is saying that they need to be rereleased. I'm not sure about Ironhide, Magnus and Skywarp as they were shelfwarmers, but certainly Ratchet deserved a wider release.

Really? I have only been collecting for a year or so but as I said above looking at aftermarket pricing I am pretty sure that Hasbro would not lose money on a reissue of these figures.

[kup]

I didn't see Ironhide, Magnus and Skywarp shelf warm for too long either except in stores that were charging ridiculous prices for them like Uncle Pete's and TrU.

However Magnus and Skywarp did shelf warm for a bit (I don't recall it being overly long like movie toys) as back then, there was no City Commander upgrade kit to create demand for another 'white prime' so the main selling point was Skywarp.


No no I am saying that there is a market for them to be rereleased. that is if I go by looking at the aftermarket pricing for these figures nowdays.

If they did a rerelease I am sure plenty would be snapped up by fans especially at regular retail pricing.

I would agree that re-releasing those molds with some new (but still true to character) paint decos would be good just as they have done with Classics Bumblebee and Starscream. It would allow for people who missed out to get them at reasonable prices otherwise there may only be the choice to seek out the 3rd party offering which could be more accessible by value and accessibility and hence it goes back to the point of this argument.

[GoktimusPrime]

but I'd like to see the add-ons targeting items that shelfwarm, otherwise it's not going to be of any benefit to us & Hasbro
Not-Stylor for Bumblebee? :p :p


Then again if Hasbro did UM properly in the first place then 3rd parties would not have made kits to do the original mold justice.
To be fair to Hasbro though it wasn't viable for Hasbro to design a trailer-armour for Classics Ultra Magnus. Aside from engineering issues it would make the toy really expensive.

[Aqua Prime]

I didn't see Ironhide, Magnus and Skywarp shelf warm for too long either except in stores that were charging ridiculous prices for them like Uncle Pete's and TrU.

However Magnus and Skywarp did shelf warm for a bit (I don't recall it being overly long like movie toys) as back then, there was no City Commander upgrade kit to create demand for another 'white prime' so the main selling point was Skywarp.

I don't recall the Magnus Skywarp pack shelfwarming either, but Transformers here on my neck of the woods sell quick. You pretty much have a couple of chances to get something while it's new and then you might not see it again. I think I had 1 or 2 chances to buy DOTM Skyhammer, passed on it and never saw it again, same with DOTM Shockwave.

The thing with the whole 3rd party thing is, all they're doing is trying to fill the void and give collectors something we want. If Hasbro/TakTom where doing that, they'd probably still be finding something else to fill that void. I don't think there'd be so much 3rd party stuff but I reckon it would still exist. The collectors market has continued to grow and will grow until something is done. What that is? I have no idea but I love my 3rd party stuff and look forward to Hexatron and Knightmorpher Hearts of Steel Not Starscream :)

[Sky Shadow]

Ironhides pegwarmed at David Jones and Magnus/Skywarps shelfwarmed Target. UM/S started at $45 but went on sale and it still took them a good while to sell even though it was a Voyager with a free Deluxe. In the US, Magnus/Skywarps shelfwarmed clearance shelves at $8-$13. They may sell now; they didn't at the time.

Ratchets would definitely sell if rereleased.

[MindsetOverhaul]

It's always amusing to see just how entitled Transformers fans seem to feel they are.

:rolleyes:and sometimes obnoxious

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

To be fair to Hasbro though it wasn't viable for Hasbro to design a trailer-armour for Classics Ultra Magnus. Aside from engineering issues it would make the toy really expensive.CC wasn't exactly cheap either, but it still sold pretty well.
There's a market for pricey-yet-superior adult collectible TFs out there if HasTak wants to pursue it. It's not the mass-market angle they're going for atm, sure, but it's there and 'the fans' have shown they're not averse to large purchases - there's a nice fancy MP10 accompanied by a Night Ops PE Not-Reflector currently overlooking my bedroom to prove it.:o

Also, I'd totally buy a rereleased UM for my empty CC armour. I keep hoping Takara will release one while I'm here, but no luck so far.

[Prowl]

To be fair to Hasbro though it wasn't viable for Hasbro to design a trailer-armour for Classics Ultra Magnus. Aside from engineering issues it would make the toy really expensive.

I do agree. My comment was more a dig at how a 3rd party product can completeley change Hasbro figure for the better. Hasbro loves a repaint & the city commander made UM many many times better in my eyes.

Then again the only good thing UM ever did (to me at least) was get destroyed by the mightly Galvatron the 86 movie :cool:.

[Prowl]

Ironhides pegwarmed at David Jones and Magnus/Skywarps shelfwarmed Target. UM/S started at $45 but went on sale and it still took them a good while to sell even though it was a Voyager with a free Deluxe. In the US, Magnus/Skywarps shelfwarmed clearance shelves at $8-$13. They may sell now; they didn't at the time.

Ratchets would definitely sell if rereleased.

That is interessting for a noob like me. I do remember seeing Ironhide in a Kmart somewhere & thinking to myself "thats not f**king Ironhide" being that I grew up on G1 & the cartoon. I did not collect at the time or anything but I wish I had grabbed every last one of them now!

I think 3rd party products have a place & it is up to the induvidual if they wish to buy them or not. I have no overriding loyalty to Hasbro but obviously I prefer to buy their product if available. My loyalty is to making my collection the best representation of the 84-86 Transformers I can so that it pleases me.

On the subject of 3rd party vendors at Botcon I completely understand Hasbros stance. It would be nice if they worked together to make the fans experience of their products as complete as it can be but that is wishful thinking at best :).

I may be wrong in my assumption but a 3rd party product enhances a existing Hasbro line or figure & a KO is a straight rip off of a already released product?

[Sky Shadow]

I may be wrong in my assumption but a 3rd party product enhances a existing Hasbro line or figure & a KO is a straight rip off of a already released product?

'Third party' toys also include toys that are ripoffs of characters but not moulds and don't enhance a HasTakTom product, for example - making toys that are clearly meant to be Devastator, Reflector, Springer etc.

[griffin]

(posts about committing fraud and bragging about it, removed, as per board rules)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, I remember seeing Ultra Magnus, Skywarp and Ironhide shelf/peg warming. But I think Skywarp would've sold better if he were on his own and not in a 2 pack with Ultra Magnus. I bought Ultra Magnus purely because I wanted Skywarp. I kept skipping the set and erming and aahing about it, then I finally caved and got it at Target (can't remember if it was on sale or not) - just cos I wanted Skywarp!

Ironhide might have sold better if he'd been released more widely other than just DJs. Ratchet never even came out here did he? I certainly never saw him.


CC wasn't exactly cheap either, but it still sold pretty well.
There's a market for pricey-yet-superior adult collectible TFs out there if HasTak wants to pursue it. It's not the mass-market angle they're going for atm, sure, but it's there and 'the fans' have shown they're not averse to large purchases - there's a nice fancy MP10 accompanied by a Night Ops PE Not-Reflector currently overlooking my bedroom to prove it.:o
Yeah but MP-10 is an expensive collector-centric action figure, not an accessory. We've never seen either Hasbro or Takara(TOMY) create just an accessory for a Transformer. Also, remember that Classicsverse isn't part of the "high end" collectible range, they're regular Transformers which means the primary target market is children. That's why Megatron is a Nerf Maverick and not a Walther P38 like the adult-oriented reissues and Masterpiece.

Hasbro would be more inclined to release Ultra Magnus with a trailer rather than just a separate trailer. But this would be really big and expensive. A more viable alternative is to take a smaller Optimus Prime mould (like say Legends Reveal The Shield Optimus Prime; or possibly the Deluxe mould if they're feeling ambitious), repaint that and then design a new trailer-armour for it. Designing a trailer-armour for an existing Optimus Prime mould instead of creating a whole new cab-robot design would be cheaper. Besides, we know that any new cab-robot would be simplified at the expense of the trailer-armour... also... I don't trust Hasbro to make a trailer-armour that itself isn't simplified at the expense of some useless electronic light and sound gimmick. :rolleyes:


I do agree. My comment was more a dig at how a 3rd party product can completeley change Hasbro figure for the better. Hasbro loves a repaint & the city commander made UM many many times better in my eyes.
Yeah but that's cos repaints and cheap and easy to do. :) The toy may have shelf warmed, which isn't as bad a loss for Hasbro compared to if they'd engineered a new accessory for the and it shelf warmed (like say with Ultimate Optimus Prime and Jetwing Optimus Prime - which is still shelfwarming even though Target's massively slashed its price! :eek:).


Then again the only good thing UM ever did (to me at least) was get destroyed by the mightly Galvatron the 86 movie :cool:.
It's true that Ultra Magnus did spend a LOT of his time in G1 getting repeatedly whooped by Galvatron... but Galvatron was portrayed as a demi-god (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/79/MarvelUK-205.jpg), and Ultra Magnus did pretty well fighting up such an impossible opponent. Even Fortress Maximus struggled to defeat Galvatron.

[liegeprime]

I saw Ratchet and bought mine from Kmart, Gok. Our local one. It was the only one there..... on the other hand I didn't see a shelfwarming UM/Skywarp 2 pack... I had to trek all the way to Burwood just so i could get 1.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah right. :) I got my Ultra Magnus/Skywarp from Parramatta Target.

[kup]

Ah right. :) I got my Ultra Magnus/Skywarp from Parramatta Target.

The place that I saw the Magnus/Skywarp pack last after it had sold out from everywhere else was Uncle Pete's in Roselands but that is only because they were charging something ridiculous for it.

Something that did shelf warm for much longer was the G2 Megatron and deluxe Classics Prime pack that came with that Cybertron DVD.

[MindsetOverhaul]

The more i think about it the more i realize that this is a really good business move by Hasbro & Botcon. The number of people who bring their expendable funds to Botcon to spend on whatever, including KO's or 3/P stuff, will no longer have the latter option. Like it or not. And that money will be directed at other dealers of official merch (and mini-bars of hotel rooms).

Whether we agree with the move they're making or not won't see any defectors from the event.
Even more subjectively, I'm on the record as being OK with some 3/P goodies but eh, if i were going to Botcon, and found out that all non-Has/Tak s#i7 wasn't gonna be there, I wouldn't skip a beat.


(posts about committing fraud and bragging about it, removed, as per board rules)
:oword:cool:

[GoktimusPrime]

Good point. As an officially sanctioned Transformers convention then it should be about promoting the officially sanctioned brand/franchise and products. :)

[kup]

Good point. As an officially sanctioned Transformers convention then it should be about promoting the officially sanctioned brand/franchise and products. :)

Indeed. They have every right to do what they did.

[griffin]

Looks like Hasbro are prohibiting unlicensed artwork as well, according to this (http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/conventions-15/botcon-2012-policy-update-regarding-fan-art-174729/). Admittedly, the artist tables have only been numerous in the last 2-3 years, and since IDW don't sell posters, I don't think anyone (including IDW) were objecting to fans & past/present Comic Artists selling posters & prints of TFs characters.
I know that a lot of fans like buying/requesting certain characters being done, especially by past/present comic artists... so I think this may hurt more than it helps. Especially to FunPub, who are losing a lot of revenue from the people (artists & dealers) cancelling tables, as well as the people not attending now if they can't buy custom figures or artwork.

I think the Dealer Room is going to be pretty empty this year...

FunPub have always neglected promoting/hyping the non-toy elements of the Transformers convention (the guests, events, the annual meeting up with friends socially), so now that Hasbro are putting the squeeze on the one element FunPub always focussed on (to get in the toy dealers and scalpers), they've left themselves with an event that doesn't have much to boast about.

[Sky Shadow]

I know that a lot of fans like buying/requesting certain characters being done, especially by past/present comic artists... so I think this may hurt more than it helps.

As far as I can tell, they can still request drawings of Transformers, they just can't be charged for them. People can draw/display/give away drawings of Transformers, but can't sell them.

[liegeprime]

Looks like Hasbro are prohibiting unlicensed artwork as well, according to this (http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/conventions-15/botcon-2012-policy-update-regarding-fan-art-174729/). Admittedly, the artist tables have only been numerous in the last 2-3 years, and since IDW don't sell posters, I don't think anyone (including IDW) were objecting to fans & past/present Comic Artists selling posters & prints of TFs characters.
I know that a lot of fans like buying/requesting certain characters being done, especially by past/present comic artists... so I think this may hurt more than it helps. Especially to FunPub, who are losing a lot of revenue from the people (artists & dealers) cancelling tables, as well as the people not attending now if they can't buy custom figures or artwork.

I think the Dealer Room is going to be pretty empty this year...

FunPub have always neglected the non-toy elements of the Transformers convention (the guests, events, the annual meeting up with friends socially), so now that Hasbro are putting the squeeze on the one element FunPub always focussed on (to get in the toy dealers and scalpers), they've left themselves with an event that doesn't have much to boast about.

It would indeed be an interesting Botcon to see.... tumbleweeds......:p

[Paulbot]

This would seem to be a response to what's been happening in the comic convention world.

Earlier this year the creator of Ghost Rider took Marvel to court over a claim for rights/money to the character being used in movies. He lost and Marvel then sued him for selling prints of his Ghost Rider artwork at conventions.

Source (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/02/09/marvel-demands-for-gary-friedrichs-ghost-rider-prints/)

This apparently puts all artists doing convention art at risk...


There has been an… unwritten rule. That comic publishers don’t try to gain monetarily from artists selling work in such a fashion… as long as it doesn’t go too far. It doesn’t extend into merchandise, it doesn’t offend, and it doesn’t cannabilise any of a publisher’s own licenses. Legally, publishers could, arguably, go after so many creators for selling a head sketch of Captain America for $5, but they don’t. It’s considered promotion of the company, of the characters, of the brand, and helps creators make a living.
Source (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/02/10/the-day-that-marvel-put-a-bullet-in-the-head-of-artists-alley/)

With advice to:


... QUIT doing, creating, selling ANY sketches or sketchbooks or prints featuring Marvel/Disney characters, IMMEDIATELY. And let fans know WHY you are no longer doing them, and/or CANNOT do them ever again.
Source (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/02/14/jean-marc-lofficier-on-the-consequences-of-the-gary-friedrich-decision/)

With all this going on I can totally see why BotCon might want to avoid a similar issue and it would protect the TF artists from legal risks.

[GoktimusPrime]

Perhaps artists can simply ask for donations for a chosen charity in exchange for custom art. That's what Neil Kaplan did when he came to Australia for SupaNova -- never charged anyone for autographs, recordings, photos etc., but simply asked that people make a donation (how much was up to them) to his selected charity. I was happy to donate to get his John Hancock and photo/video ops! :D

If customisers want to make some money back to cover the material costs of constructing the customs, perhaps they can ask for a contribution fee? Or perhaps "give" the toy away as a lucky draw prize, but people need to pay a fee to enter the draw; thus they're technically charging contestants a competition entry fee and not a purchase charge for the custom toy. And people can enter as many times as they like (thus encouraging people to purchase more raffle tickets for more chances to win). <shrug>

[kup]

Perhaps artists can simply ask for donations for a chosen charity in exchange for custom art. That's what Neil Kaplan did when he came to Australia for SupaNova -- never charged anyone for autographs, recordings, photos etc., but simply asked that people make a donation (how much was up to them) to his selected charity. I was happy to donate to get his John Hancock and photo/video ops! :D

If customisers want to make some money back to cover the material costs of constructing the customs, perhaps they can ask for a contribution fee? Or perhaps "give" the toy away as a lucky draw prize, but people need to pay a fee to enter the draw; thus they're technically charging contestants a competition entry fee and not a purchase charge for the custom toy. And people can enter as many times as they like (thus encouraging people to purchase more raffle tickets for more chances to win). <shrug>

Hasbro is more likely to take a 'Black or White' approach here as they have already done. They are likely not to see a distinction between donations/draws and paying for the goods. No artist or customizer is going to risk having their stuff confiscated just because Hasbro was unable to see the distinction.

Plus who would want to risk it or offer their hard efforts on a custom or art as a donation or price draw? They are more likely to sell their stuff online or at a more fan friendly con since there are a few to choose from now.

Frankly, none of this is surprising, an approach like this from Hasbro is to be expected.

I would not be surprised that if this 'unfriendliness' to fans continues in the following years, an unofficial con may actually end up becoming more popular or the 'prominent' Transformers convention for fans.

[GoktimusPrime]

Surely they'd be able to sell pictures of artists' own original creations - i.e. generic transforming robots. Hasbro doesn't own rights over transforming robots that aren't Transformers (after all in the 1980s we also had competing Go-Bots/Machine Men and Robotech etc. -- and in Japan there are still lots of transforming robot toys outside of Transformers... heck, Transformers was born from various different transforming robot franchises!). Even in the Western market we have stuff like RoadBots, Power Rangers (Zords) etc.

If Hasbro wants to crack down on fan art of their IP, then fine... that means artists will need to get more creative and make up their own stuff! :) Like SofaMan (http://otca.com.au/boards/member.php?u=32). :D Perhaps they can allow fans to display artwork of Hasbro IP Transformers but not allow them to sell them. I think that's fair. We already have such a policy in Australian conventions where fan artists are only allowed to sell their own original creations etc. of their own original works and not fan-works based on someone else's IP.

[griffin]

But who's going to go to a Transformers Convention to buy drawings of robots that don't exist or even seen before, in or out of the Transformers Universe. The artists would have trouble giving them away.
Very few fans would have a custom character in mind to solicit an artist to draw for them... and that'd occupy one artist at best. Last year had over 10 artists selling artwork. All of it was of actual characters.
I don't think that the Lil'Formers artist will escape this either, and he's been hocking his stuff at BotCon pretty much ever since I've been going.

[kup]

Hasbro has reversed the 'ban' on fan artists:


We're pleased to announce, per Hasbro, that artist tables will be allowed at BotCon 2012 as we have allowed it in the past, and will be permissible as part of the show. Hasbro sympathizes and understands fans' discouragement with the previous statements concerning fan art, and while remaining steadfast in the right to protect its IP in regards to unlicensed merchandise, wants to ensure fans can continue to enjoy the BotCon experience which they know is made so great in large part by the fan community.

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/botcon-reverse-ban-on-fan-art-sales/24480/

Good news as Hasbro's previous statements sounded too draconian and somewhat crossing the line between defending their IP and becoming unfriendly to fans.

[Sky Shadow]

http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-14/01-deady-dearest/lefty/

[Lint]

http://www.shortpacked.com/2012/comic/book-14/01-deady-dearest/lefty/

In a way, wishing I never clicked that link :rolleyes:

[Paulbot]

Those Cassette pillows! Want! :D

[Skullcruncher]

Those Cassette pillows! Want! :D

Meeee tooooo :D

[Hursticon]

Meeee tooooo :D

Me 3!!! :eek::D

[1AZRAEL1]

Me 3!!! :eek::D

Me 4 lol

[Paulbot]

I've tracked them down via a YouTube interview, to this website (http://orgxiii.org/), but they still haven't updated with the BotCon pics.

[Hursticon]

I've tracked them down via a YouTube interview, to this website (http://orgxiii.org/), but they still haven't updated with the BotCon pics.

Well found dude! ;), will have to keep an eye on this one. :)