Scabs and Leeches

[MindsetOverhaul]

about a month ago i met up with a few dudes from OTCA. During one of many short discussions regarding the 3rd party s#!ts, it was pointed out how lame it is when some of these companies make add-ons for other 3rd party releases. Golden Pheonix joked "who are these guys? 4th party?", which stuck with me cos it hearing it roll off his tongue was like lotion for my ears (it was awesome. LOL).

Many/most 3rd parties have released kits for Has/Tak figures and it's commonly accepted that this is OK. When the same thing is done for 3rd party $#!7 it erks me. I't just seems more scabby than the usual kit release, don't ask why.

so anyway, DR WU is a more recent goose that springs to mind. I personally feel his face and head add-ons are so unnecessary, like a parasitic leech. It's just there feeding off others' hard work and contributing to the overwhelming mass of not great 3rd party stuffs. Objectively, It could be justifiably argued that any 3rd party kit is bludging off Has/Tak in the same fashion and you'd be right, although some of the add-ons are seriously in certain Has/Tak figures' favor in terms of playability and canon.

i could probably go on but, yeh, whatever.
please chime in with their thoughts on sh!7 related to this...

[Hursticon]

I felt very similarly with regards to PerfectEffect (PE) initially but they have since moved away greatly from that and have proven to be quite astute with their design team. :)

I agree it is silly though, but its a quick and easy way to fill a niche within a niche and make a name for one's self although many, like iGear, end up simply announcing 20 odd items and only ever have 4 or so see the light of release - This is what I think is stupid. ;):cool:

[MindsetOverhaul]

there were a heap of FP CityCommander add-ons, from PE, iGear and maybe even TFC, i can't remember exactly. None of them really improved it's overall appearance IMO.

[Hursticon]

there were a heap of FP CityCommander add-ons, from PE, iGear and maybe even TFC, i can't remember exactly. None of them really improved it's overall appearance IMO.

Oh yeah, I agree - Most of PE's early stuff were silly flame-blaster thingies and a jet pack; no amount of thrust is going to get that hulk off of the ground IMO. :p:D

Then you had replacement faces, weapons etc. :rolleyes: - About the only real decent 4th party item for any 3rd party piece that I've seen come in the form of stickers from Reprolabels. :)

[MindsetOverhaul]

About the only real decent 4th party item for any 3rd party piece that I've seen come in the form of stickers from Reprolabels. :)

mmm, copy that. i agree, they're wicked

[Sky Shadow]

It's just a leech sucking on a leech. They all deserve the same amount of salt.

[kup]

It's just a leech sucking on a leech. They all deserve the same amount of salt.

I know you are ideologically against unofficial toys and that's your prerogative but please don't troll.

[Sky Shadow]

I know you are ideologically against unofficial toys and that's your prerogative but please don't troll.

The topic is 'Scabs and Leeches'. There is no justifiable reason for one and not the other. Either you should approve of both or disapprove of both. Ergo - the same amount of salt.

[kup]

The topic is 'Scabs and Leeches'. There is no justifiable reason for one and not the other. Either you should approve of both or disapprove of both. Ergo - the same amount of salt.

Very well. It is up to you and others if they see your post as constructive to the argument the thread topic puts forth regardless of bias.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Taking away the bile, and ignoring the inconsistency in condemning 3rd-party producers for 'ripping off' Hasbros IP (which for the most part consists of reimaginings of old Diaclone and Microman toys) while giving them a pass on pieces like, say the Universe Sunstreaker mold (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sunstreaker_%28G1%29#Universe_.282008.29), SS is pretty much right IMO. 3rd-Party additional add-ons for other 3rd-Party pieces are just as valid as any other add-on for any other piece.

As far as the morality of it goes, well...I aim for amorality as often as is possible, and especially for TF collecting. If I started getting all moral about it I'd have to consider that I blow hundreds of dollars a year on collecting toys while millions of people starve to death all over the world every year, and then every time I looked my TF collection I'd end up thinking about how many starving kids the money I've spent on those complicated plastic puzzles could have fed. It's kind of depressing, so I prefer to down a few beers and fool around with my MP10 and my PE Night-Ops Not-Reflector instead.

[kup]

Taking away the bile, and ignoring the inconsistency in condemning 3rd-party producers for 'ripping off' Hasbros IP (which for the most part consists of reimaginings of old Diaclone and Microman toys) while giving them a pass on pieces like, say the Universe Sunstreaker mold (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sunstreaker_%28G1%29#Universe_.282008.29), SS is pretty much right IMO. 3rd-Party additional add-ons for other 3rd-Party pieces are just as valid as any other add-on for any other piece.

As far as the morality of it goes, well...I aim for amorality as often as is possible, and especially for TF collecting. If I started getting all moral about it I'd have to consider that I blow hundreds of dollars a year on collecting toys while millions of people starve to death all over the world every year, and then every time I looked my TF collection I'd end up thinking about how many starving kids the money I've spent on those complicated plastic puzzles could have fed. It's kind of depressing, so I prefer to down a few beers and fool around with my MP10 and my PE Night-Ops Not-Reflector instead.

I am not sure about the morality but I haven't liked any of the '4th party' stuff and the only one that I did buy was horrible beyond believe.

I guess that I don't see any point to them as I would only buy a 3rd party item if I am already liking it for what it is or I wouldn't buy it which makes 4th party items a bit redundant.

[Sky Shadow]

Taking away the bile, and ignoring the inconsistency in condemning 3rd-party producers for 'ripping off' Hasbros IP (which for the most part consists of reimaginings of old Diaclone and Microman toys) while giving them a pass on pieces like, say the Universe Sunstreaker mold (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sunstreaker_%28G1%29#Universe_.282008.29), SS is pretty much right IMO.

I think you have a great argument in there, but Universe Sunstreaker isn't the best example since Takara owned the original design and produced the homage. The one toy that would be a strong case is Classics/Henkei Jetfire. It's clearly a homage to a mould no-longer owned by Hasbro and currently owned by Bandai, TakaraTomy's rival. (There could be a similar argument made of the upcoming Generations Shockwave, depending on who currently owns the Astro Magnum design.)

But I'd prefer a world with no Classics Jetfire, no Generations Shockwave and no third (or fourth) party toys rather than the one we live in, where Transformers forums dedicate half their front pages and much of their content to products that aren't Transformers.

[liegeprime]

I aint against any 3rd party, but as with any product, I only get what I want. Hey, it's my money and Ill use it on whatever , however I want to.:p Plus I collect a lot of stuff anyways not just TFs anymore. Besides I believe that if their product aint good, it's not gonna sell and they wont profit any from it, but if a product indeed is good and it does answer the need of the market consumer then it will prosper and will have a following/support.

The 3rd party stuff I get is for my enjoyment and enhancements of these wonderful toys I collect. IPs and all that issue does not concern me anymore, Hastak's rolling in money already, anyhow Hastak's not concerned about me anyways as well as the final consumer - their more concerned of THEIR target consumer which are Walmart, Target et al. So I just don't see why I should concern myself and get all riled up with supposedly their issues. Since Hastak doesnt seem to be concerned in completely protecting their IPs anyway anytime soon ( bar the barring of 3rd party stuff in Botcon) shows it's not a major concern for them, so WTH do I care.:p Besides Hastak's not gonna stop producing Tfs anytime soon as a result of all the 3rd party stuff... and if they said before that were not doing so and so because of all the 3rd party stuff out there - look at the recent encore devastator set. in other words if it will be profitable you bet they will do it. :rolleyes:

Hehehehe Scabs and leeches, well that's about right - scabs cover a wound ( could be interpreted as a hole in Hastak's market which the 3rd party ppl have exploited in order to sell their product- i.e. they discovered a need and answered it with their goods) and leeches - 4th party ppl who have discovered where there is a leak in the 3rd party stuff that although not so necessary they exploit by sucking out every bit of of blood they can get - to sell their products. nice.

[MindsetOverhaul]

:rolleyes:
Hehehehe Scabs and leeches, well that's about right - scabs cover a wound ( could be interpreted as a hole in Hastak's market which the 3rd party ppl have exploited in order to sell their product- i.e. they discovered a need and answered it with their goods) and leeches - 4th party ppl who have discovered where there is a leak in the 3rd party stuff that although not so necessary they exploit by sucking out every bit of of blood they can get - to sell their products. nice.

:)Thankyou Liege, they're my sentiments exactly!

i much prefer to see the Has/Tak -vs- 3/P discussions carried on down here rather than the continued derail of the "Banned @ Botcon" thread.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I think you have a great argument in there, but Universe Sunstreaker isn't the best example since Takara owned the original design and produced the homage. The one toy that would be a strong case is Classics/Henkei Jetfire. It's clearly a homage to a mould no-longer owned by Hasbro and currently owned by Bandai, TakaraTomy's rival. (There could be a similar argument made of the upcoming Generations Shockwave, depending on who currently owns the Astro Magnum design.)

But I'd prefer a world with no Classics Jetfire, no Generations Shockwave and no third (or fourth) party toys rather than the one we live in, where Transformers forums dedicate half their front pages and much of their content to products that aren't Transformers.Just to be clear: I was talking less about the toy than the Not-quite-Lamborghini-Gallardo alt-mode, which almost-infringes upon Lamborghini's IP in much the same way as CC almost-infringes on Ultra Magnus. It's not a toy-to-toy comparison, sure, but it is an IP-to-IP comparison. I can't find the clip, but it really got summed up best by the Futurama episode with the 'We-resemble-but-are-legally-distinct-from-the-Lollipop-Guild (http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ligtp6krHC1qepmyjo1_500.png)' bit.
Outright KOs and the Faith Leader type stuff is a different kettle of fish IMO, but all that means is I'm not gonna knowingly buy them myself.

Me, I'd rather have Classics Jetfire and whatever 3rd-party pieces take my fancy, and ideally a world where people didn't die from obesity-related diseases in some countries and starve to death in others. In the meantime, should, would, and could are all things that never happen, and things are the way they are.
I do reckon more boards should do what TFW2005 has done and have a non-3rd-party feed though, just as a courtesy measure.

[reillyd]

You never feed a troll. If you do, the troll always wins.

[MindsetOverhaul]

Ode to a Grasshopper - that is an excellent point. It is a definite splice of Reventon/Gallardo. There's a whole thread of classics comparisons at Sector70.

I know you recognize the irony of our hobbies -vs- the real world, that's a good thing but you and i and anyone else who knows it should do something about it or shut up. i've volunteered for charity work, sponsored children, done respite care for families with disabled children for a few years and still regularly donate to the mighty Sea Shepard. I have a house and 2 children and my Mum lives with us too. No matter what, i'll always be a #ucking hypocrite if i try to preach about it and consume at the rate at which i do. (btw, i'm not calling you a hypocrite)
Transformers mix with politics and charity like Religion mixes with science and logic


You never feed a troll. If you do, the troll always wins.

c'mon bro, no-one's trolling this thread. don't be passive aggressive, just call some-one out if you think they're (i'm) being a jerk.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

I know you recognize the irony of our hobbies -vs- the real world, that's a good thing but you and i and anyone else who knows it should do something about it or shut up. i've volunteered for charity work, sponsored children, done respite care for families with disabled children for a few years and still regularly donate to the mighty Sea Shepard. I have a house and 2 children and my Mum lives with us too. No matter what, i'll always be a #ucking hypocrite if i try to preach about it and consume at the rate at which i do. (btw, i'm not calling you a hypocrite)
Transformers mix with politics and charity like Religion mixes with science and logicFor totes, that's where...
As far as the morality of it goes, well...I aim for amorality as often as is possible, and especially for TF collecting...It's kind of depressing, so I prefer to down a few beers and fool around with my MP10 and my PE Night-Ops Not-Reflector instead....these bits factor in.
The only reason I mention it here is 'cos if we're going to go on about scabs and leeches as regards this particular hobby/addiction, well...that's a hat we all have to wear simply by virtue of collecting toys made form oil-based materials assembled by underpaid Vietnamese and Chinese factory workers. Again, I'm not passing moral judgement/preaching on that (as in I'm specifically not doing so what with the whole Judge-Not approach I generally prefer, what with my being a cheerful nihilist), it's just the reality of life in a Developed nation. I'm just glad I was born into one of the good parts as opposed to the bad parts - what are the odds, hey?:D

I prefer the term 'subjectively-oriented morality' to 'hypocrisy' btw.;)

[Lord_Zed]

Well I don't see how any of these 4th party products are morally any better or worse than the 3rd party products. The only real difference is so far they have almost all universally sucked. Which does make them easier to condemn I suppose as lacking imagination or effort, but really I don't see a big enough difference to be up in arms about it.

Not to say that I've thought to hard about it, I just enjoy collecting robots that I like who transform, Transformer or not. I'll leave the deep moralizing and ethics discussion to others.

[MindsetOverhaul]

For totes, that's where......these bits factor in.
The only reason I mention it here is 'cos if we're going to go on about scabs and leeches as regards this particular hobby/addiction, well...that's a hat we all have to wear simply by virtue of collecting toys made form oil-based materials assembled by underpaid Vietnamese and Chinese factory workers. Again, I'm not passing moral judgement/preaching on that (as in I'm specifically not doing so what with the whole Judge-Not approach I generally prefer, what with my being a cheerful nihilist), it's just the reality of life in a Developed nation. I'm just glad I was born into one of the good parts as opposed to the bad parts - what are the odds, hey?:D

I prefer the term 'subjectively-oriented morality' to 'hypocrisy' btw.;)

Fu@k, i like you!

[canofwhoopass_87]

Dodging the main points of discussion here....but yeh I strongly agree that the Dr Wu "Roaring" upgrade kit for the 3rd party Hercules set is completely unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong though; I feel that the majority of the 4th party add ons do indeed improve the 3rd party pieces they are intended for - but the Dr Wu rage face (amongst a couple of others that I can't recall right now) are in a league of their own crappyness.

[UltraMagnus]

Dodging the main points of discussion here....but yeh I strongly agree that the Dr Wu "Roaring" upgrade kit for the 3rd party Hercules set is completely unnecessary.

Don't get me wrong though; I feel that the majority of the 4th party add ons do indeed improve the 3rd party pieces they are intended for - but the Dr Wu rage face (amongst a couple of others that I can't recall right now) are in a league of their own crappyness.

I bought this upgrade and it still sits in its cheap box in its cheap packaging with its cheap accessories. If this title was aimed at anyone its Dr Wu (mind you it cost $7AUD and is probably worth $2.

Its an interesting subject and I have spoken to many at length about this. There is only 1 simple rule here. Supply/Demand. If people want it and pay for it then there is a demand.

[MindsetOverhaul]

I bought this upgrade and it still sits in its cheap box in its cheap packaging with its cheap accessories. If this title was aimed at anyone its Dr Wu (mind you it cost $7AUD and is probably worth $2.

Its an interesting subject and I have spoken to many at length about this. There is only 1 simple rule here. Supply/Demand. If people want it and pay for it then there is a demand.


thanks for your input mate. Looks like this thread is back on track.
Let's use it to rag on any and all 3/P and 4/P scraps. i really liked Sky Shadow dropping in with his views on the scabs and leeches because having everyone think the same is boring as fook.

[canofwhoopass_87]

Iron Will!

http://robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=DWP03&lang=us

[kup]

Iron Will!

http://robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=DWP03&lang=us

That's an example of why I don't buy 4th party items. They all seem pretty crap.

Who wants a happy Magnus anyways?

[Bartrim]

That's an example of why I don't buy 4th party items. They all seem pretty crap.

Who wants a happy Magnus anyways?

Maybe Magnus can finally deal with it now:p

[Lord_Zed]

It doesn't actually seem that much worse than some 3rd party items I've seen. Some of those old garage heads have been far worse. Still it's not very exciting either, though Magnus's Authoritar glasses should be respected cause they look a bit like his UK comic appearances.