Ebay "second chance" scam

[griffin]

This isn't the first time, and won't be the last, but this happens enough to make mention of it.

When you bid on an auction, and lose it, but then get a second-chance offer by the seller, claiming that the winner didn't pay... if the offer is at your maximum-bid price instead of what you would have won it at now that the winner's bid is void, it indicates shill bidding by someone they know, to get more for their item. (shill bidding are bids by that person on a different account, or a friend, to bump up a final bid price... and if it goes over the price of the legit bidder, a second-chance offer is sent out at their maximum bid amount)

So even if it wasn't shill bidding, if the winner is a deadbeat bidder, their bid is void. Remove that deadbeat bidder from the bid history listing, and the true winner would have won it at a dollar above the next highest bidder, not at their maximum. If the seller was honourable, they would concede that "legit" winning bid amount and offer the item at that price... NOT at their maximum bid amount, just because it was the amount the winner was willing to pay.
But that's the point of bidding - to get something cheaper than the maximum we are willing to pay... or else we'd just find a "buy it now" item and be done with it. To win something for less than your maximum is the bonus element of bidding, so to have someone cheat with shill-bidding, or take advantage of an actual deadbeat bidder, is something that I'm not impressed with, or accept.

About 8 years ago, before Ebay started hiding usernames, it was easy to prove shill bidding, because I was bidding on a rare Transformers toy that was mispelt in the title... so as expected, I was winning at a really great price, until the last day, and someone outbid me. I didn't think much of it until I got a second-chance offer for my maximum (which was over $100 more than what I would have won it at, if the winner's bid was void). I asked why he was asking for my maximum instead of what I would have won it at, and he refused to respond, and then blocked me from bidding on the relisted item. Looking at his other auctions, the same bidder was bumping up his other auctions, even after the one I bid on, so since he didn't block him (but blocked me instead), it was obvious that was a shill/second-chance bid scam.

That was the one I remember most because it was a toy I really wanted, and I've had a few since then (including a Motorvator from New Zealand that I also really wanted)... but this is one from today.
I bid on this item at $55 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=261053895219), and I wasn't really fussed about getting it. I actually forgot that I even bid on it until tonight when I got a second chance offer for $55 (I haven't checked my email for a few days).
I had a look at the bid history (http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&_trksid=p4340.l2565&rt=nc&item=261053895219), and if the winning bidder was a deadbeat (not paying) or a shill bidder (to bump up the price or find out my maximum), and they were removed, I would have won it for $39.90.

For those who still use ebay for bidding on items, have you ever had this situation occur to you, and if so, did you reject it or accept it?
For me, I reject the offer, even if it was something I really wanted (like the rare JP figure 8 years ago or the more recent Motorvator)... and if they relist, I have another go at it, at the same bid amount (to see if it happens again).

Has anyone ever been offered a second-chance offer at what they would have won the item at? Does that sort of honourable thing even happen on ebay?

That's one dealer to avoid though (for taking advantage of a deadbeat or shill bidder working out my maximum), which is a pity, as it is hard to find Americans shipping rarer items outside of America, on ebay.

[iamirondude]

yeah it use to happen to me alot but i never accepted a 2nd chance offers cause i'd been ripped of before so now i buy from the one seller in the USA and we have an agreed price on items and i've never overpayed for any TF's i actually pay 80% less thab if i was buying from a local seller.

[Shirokaze]

Same thing happened to me on a pair of Recaro seats. Would've won them for $700 had the seller not shill bidded the price up to over $1000 which was my maximum bid. I just ignored all correspondence from him; these people don't deserve a response. :mad:

[5FDP]

I've heard of this practice going on but it's never happened to me and I've been using eBay now for over 10 years.

Having said that though, due to some recent bad experiences, I have stayed away of late.

[Skullcruncher]

Its quite obvious when it does happen, the majority of the time the shill bidder has less than 20 feedback. If I see a zero bidder on something I just don't bid.

When I lost my job recently I turned out to be the winner of an auction - I wasn't in the right mindset to run and check ebay and remove my bids incase I did win anything. I told the seller I couldn't pay and they did a second chance to the next highest bidder. Also as a seller I have had a few non correspondant winners so if the correct process is followed some items found new homes with second chance bidders.

Its not a perfect system but it stll gives the seller and buyer a good chance to make a deal. If anyone is not comfortable with a second chance offer or think something is a bit dodgy then don't accept the offer!

[griffin]

I don't have a problem with Second-chance offers... I think they are a great system for both seller and legit winner, if done properly. But sellers don't seem to use them properly, as it allows them to get a better price by shill bidding or taking advantage of deadbeat bidders.
If they used it properly, and honestly, then I'd be a returning customer and tell others about their items, as a sign of my respect.

[Sharky]

i have has a similar experience where a "second chance" offer was made after been the second highest bidder however the seller mentioned he had multiples of the item for sale and if i would want one at the end of auction value,

this i did not accept.

[Trent]

Hadn't really thought about this before, not buying from ebay that often and all (4 times in the last 5 years). But good to know.

Thanks Griff :)

[snaketales]

I received a second chance offer on a group of Henkei seekers a couple of years back. The seller told me the winning bidder reckoned he was the victim of shill bidding. I wasn't complaining. :D

As a seller I've also sent a second chance offer out. From what I recall it was for the next highest bid.

[Slag]

it happened to me recently . i was battling it out for a certain tf (that ended up going for 255.) i got the second chance offer for my 250 max bid, Seller claimed to have 2 identical items.
i asked him for photo's of the other item and it was a indeed a different item (going off marks on the box etc.) so i bought it. a few days later he had another (or the first one again)up for sale.
i put a bid of 150 on it and it went for 155. but as you can guess, no second chance offer this time around.. He's now asking 249 "buy it now" and has 2 or 3 up atm.
on the other side, i was selling a few star wars figs and had some dick bidding it up. After no contact (after it had all ended) i was going to offer it to the next guy, but couldn't figure out how to do a second chance offer for his first real bid before the shill bidder had started his frenzy..
i could've contacted him i guess but thought that would look a bit suss.
in the end i re-listed it.

[1orion2many]

I had an item I was bidding on taken past my Max bid, The person then had their bid cancelled leaving me at my maximum instead of being lowered back down to what it was before that person bid, I can't remember if I won the auction but it seemed a little sussed when this happened at the time. The auction was still on going when that person cancelled their bid.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

I had this with one of my auctions, I was the seller and the default price was the bid that was the second sellers highest price. I offered it without really thinking of the bid amount, and the second guy went for it. It ended up being a fairly low auction anyway, but I see the point now. I only have ever had this once too:o

Theoretically, eBay should be making the second chance offer the initial bid of the second bidder. Yet another reason why I rather hate using ebay now.

The fact that the max bid becomes the default amount is dodgy practises on ebay's behalf anyway.

[griffin]

When sending out a second-chance offer, does an amount automatically go in (being the second person's max bid), or does it allow you to set the offer amount?
When I've challenged sellers about it, they've never said that they had no choice... they've always been defensive of the amount in the offer as if they had chosen it themselves.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

When sending out a second-chance offer, does an amount automatically go in (being the second person's max bid), or does it allow you to set the offer amount?
When I've challenged sellers about it, they've never said that they had no choice... they've always been defensive of the amount in the offer as if they had chosen it themselves.

I can't remember to be honest. If you can change the amount, it isn't made obvious by any means. When I did mine, I went to offer the second chance, and it came up with the invoice and the total amount was for their max bid. Nothing seemed to say, "want to change the amount?" anywhere.

[griffin]

If that's true, that's kinda stupid. It would mean that ebay makes the scam possible, and the sellers I confront about it are happy that it occurs to take advantage of it (which is probably why shill bidding occurs - to find out a person's Max-bid, so that they can claim that Ebay's second-chance system allows them to profit from it legitimately).
I woulda thought that it would ask the seller to enter in an amount up to a certain amount, or just default back to what the winning amount would have been... but I guess that would make it less inviting to the sellers (whom ebay makes money from).

[nexusnixx]

My experience as seller on eBay
If there are more than 1 bidder for the item, and when the auction closes, eBay provides an option to the seller to give the 2nd chance offer for the 2nd highest bidder at the price which the 2nd bidder's bid price is.

Hence if the winning bid is $10 and the 2nd highest bid is $9, eBay gives an option for seller to offer 2nd bidder the item at $9

Never given option by eBay to offer 2nd highest bidder at highest bid price

This is my experience:D

[AJ_Prime]

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago, literally within the last 2 mins someone bid a higher price for an item and then I got the second chance offer at my highest bid. I didn't proceed with it, but instead emailed the seller asking if he was willing to sell the item for my original bid price rather than my highest. He said he couldn't do it.

I noticed that he had an identical item for sale, everything about the listing was identical. The latest bid price was lower than my bid for the original item so I left it but kept it in my watch list.

I waited until the clock got down to about 10 seconds then placed my bid at a few cents higher than the current bid (still lower than my original bid for the first item). I ended up winning the item for less than what I put on the first item. :D

One way to outsmart this kind of sham. I often wonder if some of the sellers set up separate accounts to bump up the bids for their own items. That way it doesn't matter if they don't sell it, who cares if your false account has a bad reputation as a buyer?

[Megatron]

...
One way to outsmart this kind of sham. I often wonder if some of the sellers set up separate accounts to bump up the bids for their own items. That way it doesn't matter if they don't sell it, who cares if your false account has a bad reputation as a buyer?
Apparently eBay has a secret way of looking out for such practices (by checking and comparing activity on suspicious accounts I believe) and putting a stop to them. I read it somewhere in their guidelines. I wonder how successful it's been...

[Slag]

This happened to me a couple of weeks ago, literally within the last 2 mins someone bid a higher price for an item and then I got the second chance offer at my highest bid. I didn't proceed with it, but instead emailed the seller asking if he was willing to sell the item for my original bid price rather than my highest. He said he couldn't do it.

I noticed that he had an identical item for sale, everything about the listing was identical. The latest bid price was lower than my bid for the original item so I left it but kept it in my watch list.

I waited until the clock got down to about 10 seconds then placed my bid at a few cents higher than the current bid (still lower than my original bid for the first item). I ended up winning the item for less than what I put on the first item. :D



Nice one..

Planetforce by any chance?

[jazzcomp]

Second chance offer should be at your winning bid not at highest bid. Because the highest bidder backed out, his bid wasn't valid.

[Slag]

None of the non-payers bids should be valid, not just the non-payers last (and highest) one.
I would like to see ebay wipe all bids from a non-payer and whatever bids are left over should determine the result... we probably wouldn't see as many "second chance offers" but more re-listings:confused:
That would be the proper thing to do anyway

[crankcase76]

had one a few weeks ago from a seller in the u.s, i was bidding on omega sentinel in the box. price on others was $250.00+, found one up for bids and was winning to for $130.00 and then like you said griff on the last day jumped to $260.00. two days later got a second chance offer from seller claiming the bidder was a non payer and wanted to know if wanted it for that price. so i rejected it. and found one a week later loose for $100.00.:D:D

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

had one a few weeks ago from a seller in the u.s, i was bidding on omega sentinel in the box. price on others was $250.00+, found one up for bids and was winning to for $130.00 and then like you said griff on the last day jumped to $260.00. two days later got a second chance offer from seller claiming the bidder was a non payer and wanted to know if wanted it for that price. so i rejected it. and found one a week later loose for $100.00.:D:D

Just for curiosity's sake, sis you counter offer with your $130?

[Slag]

Anyone had any dealings with Paranooid?? Ive justt had a couple of second chance offers that feel a bit ... dodgy.

[Skullcruncher]

Anyone had any dealings with Paranooid?? Ive justt had a couple of second chance offers that feel a bit ... dodgy.

See what the writer did here? http://tfsource.com/blog/am-i-just-being-paranoid

PM me if you want further info.

[Slag]

See what the writer did here? http://tfsource.com/blog/am-i-just-being-paranoid

PM me if you want further info.

I'll leave them. In an honest world i shoulda got these items for 99c or 5 bucks.
(so it's not ebays fault! It's just the #$%^s that inhabit it , kinda like Maylands)

[Jetfire in the sky]

See what the writer did here? http://tfsource.com/blog/am-i-just-being-paranoid

PM me if you want further info.

Great article. I have had plenty of scam second chance offers, I just laugh and delete. Wankers :mad::mad:

[Thor]

I dont have a lot of experiences receiving SCO but I have given them out before so lets go with that.

If you send out a second chance offer there is no option to change the price. It is automatically the second highest bid. My assumption is because there is no way for you to know that a third person didnt get bidded out. A lot of buyers will bid in the last seconds to avoid being outbid..we all know this.. and most of you will have been beaten out then.. but several people will try this on a lot of auctions and only the higest bid registers..teh rest all say they didnt bid enough try again. So in fact.. this non paying bidder may have meant you wouldnt have paid as much but the other potential bidders could have bid that much as well.. if that makes sense to anyone?

I will send out second chance offers for two reasons. The most obvious is when someone doesnt pay or doesnt meet requirements.. that is the most painful and the second chance is offered under the assumption that if it were relisted it would achieve a comparable price and this is simply giving you the buyer first dibs of an item you felt was worth that price. Personally I have never considered it from the buyers point of view as being an unfair price.. I guess because if they dont want it the just dont accept and I either go to the next person if it was a price I am satisfied with or relist.


The other option is the one its not intended for but I find just as fair. If I have 2 or more of the item I will offer the second to the second chance if im happy with the price it would sell for. Why wait another week for a sale when you have a potentially willing buyer waitign right there? I will always give an explanation of why I am offering and if they buyer doesnt want, thats the end of it.


I guess at the end of the day it can be a very useful tool but it is up to the buyer. If you have any concerns with the sellers honesty I would strongly recommend not dealing with them again.. but plenty of people will use this tool to everyones advantage and I would hate to think it will get a bad reputation altogether.

[Megatron]

I dont have a lot of experiences receiving SCO but I have given them out before so lets go with that.

If you send out a second chance offer there is no option to change the price. It is automatically the second highest bid. My assumption is because there is no way for you to know that a third person didnt get bidded out. A lot of buyers will bid in the last seconds to avoid being outbid..we all know this.. and most of you will have been beaten out then.. but several people will try this on a lot of auctions and only the higest bid registers..teh rest all say they didnt bid enough try again. So in fact.. this non paying bidder may have meant you wouldnt have paid as much but the other potential bidders could have bid that much as well.. if that makes sense to anyone?

I will send out second chance offers for two reasons. The most obvious is when someone doesnt pay or doesnt meet requirements.. that is the most painful and the second chance is offered under the assumption that if it were relisted it would achieve a comparable price and this is simply giving you the buyer first dibs of an item you felt was worth that price. Personally I have never considered it from the buyers point of view as being an unfair price.. I guess because if they dont want it the just dont accept and I either go to the next person if it was a price I am satisfied with or relist.


The other option is the one its not intended for but I find just as fair. If I have 2 or more of the item I will offer the second to the second chance if im happy with the price it would sell for. Why wait another week for a sale when you have a potentially willing buyer waitign right there? I will always give an explanation of why I am offering and if they buyer doesnt want, thats the end of it.


I guess at the end of the day it can be a very useful tool but it is up to the buyer. If you have any concerns with the sellers honesty I would strongly recommend not dealing with them again.. but plenty of people will use this tool to everyones advantage and I would hate to think it will get a bad reputation altogether.

I got my SG Megatron thanks to a second chance offer. :cool:

[griffin]

So it sounds like it's a flaw in the ebay system, using the highest bid amount of the second person, instead of the price they would have won it at without the shill bidder or deadbeat bidding.... and dodgy sellers are taking advantage of it.
As much as sellers would like to claim, "this is the amount you were willing to pay", the whole point of an auction (instead of a sale) to buyers, is to hope to save money by getting as much under your maximum as possible. It's the gamble sellers take by listing an auction instead of a buy-it-now... they are hoping to make more money from the item if it is seen by enough people who want to fight over it. But if the item isn't seen by enough people who would want it, dodgy sellers are then going to shill-bid (through a second account, or from a friend they would never report), just to get the most money possible from the one person who did bid on it.

[Thor]

Oh fear not. I am not trying to give the dodgy sellers an out.. its a definite problem that as much as ebay has amde their best effort to trap them and stop them it will never truly be sold. I hate it and if I have any suspicion I stop bidding. Im one of those annoying snipers that will only ever bid in teh last minute..its the only way to protect yourself from being bumped by a shill bidder.

I was hoping to just ad a genuine sellers perspective on the benefits of the second chance offer and how it can be used genuinely :)