The Art of War

[GoktimusPrime]

This thread is only for the discussion of Cybertronian/Transformers warfare. e.g.: Transformers/Cybertronian martial arts, weaponry, strategy etc.

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Blackarachnia's weapon gimmick in action (http://i6.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/P1010001.flv)

An analysis of how Blackarachnia could use her weapon in a melee fight:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/blackarachniavratchet01.jpg
Fig.A: Blackarachnia deploys her web/claw and grabs Ratchet's right arm (indicated by the purple arrow). She then reels Ratchet in toward her (direction indicated by the red arrow).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/blackarachniavratchet02.jpg
Fig.B: Blackarachnia uses her webbing to reel Ratchet in (indicated by the red arrow), and as in the video demonstration, Ratchet falls to the ground. Blackarachnia immediately holds onto Ratchet's right wrist with her right hand and sticks her left arm onto Ratchet's right arm and drives pressure toward his shoulder/body (indicated by the green arrow), thus pinning him on the ground. Being the nasty beeotch that she is, she delivers a few nice kicks to Ratchet's head (indicated by the yellow arrow).

Now that is of course only if Ratchet actually falls during the initial web-grapple. What if he remains standing?

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/blackarachniavratchet03.jpg
Fig.C: Blackarachnia uses her webbing to reel Ratchet in (red arrow) but this time Ratchet doesn't fall and remains standing. She grabs Ratchet's right wrist with her right hand (yellow circle) and sticks to his right below with her left forearm (yellow arrow) - this prevents Ratchet from folding his right arm and barging his elbow into Blackarachnia's face. In this scenario, Ratchet wants to follow up by clubbing Blackarachnia with his wrench (blue arrow). Blackarachnia now wants to move around and behind Ratchet and she will apply a grapple leading to a submission hold (green arrows indicate intended stepping).

Fig.D: As she's stepped around Ratchet Blackarachnia also simultaneously pulls Ratchet's right wrist into her right hip and applies downward pressure on Ratchet's right shoulder blade, driving it toward the ground (yellow arrows). Once the lock is complete, Ratchet is effectively immobilised.

So how could Ratchet counter this? Here's one way...

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Wushu/blackarachniavratchet04.jpg
Fig.E: Rather than trying to resist Blackarachnia's pull (purple arrow) Ratchet goes with it and drives himself along and beyond Blackarachnia's pull (red arrow).
Fig.F: Ratchet then drives his lead arm further forward and up and toward Blackarachnia's centre of gravity.
Fig.G: Ratchet's lead arm, in a continual upward arc, cuts into Blackarachnia's centre and disrupts her balance.
Fig.: Turning his lead arm downward, Ratchet throws Blackarachnia to the ground. Blackarachnia defensively curls up.

[roller]

In regards to Transformers Marvel comics seige warefare of Iacon

Why didnt the decepticons just fly over the Autobots and storm Iacon, instead of targeting it with missiles and blowing it to kingdom come?

[STL]

Shouldn't this belong in the Grapple's creations section?

[GoktimusPrime]

Not really - this thread is meant to be actually discussing Transformers warfare. You don't have to have pics - I just use them because a picture tells a thousand words and my posts are wordy enough as they are. :p


In regards to Transformers Marvel comics seige warefare of Iacon

Why didnt the decepticons just fly over the Autobots and storm Iacon, instead of targeting it with missiles and blowing it to kingdom come?
wtf are you talking about?? (o_O) Straxus' final siege of Iacon was like taking candy from a baby thanks to the Autobot Council's foolish decision to lower their guard (save for Councillor Xaaron who was the only councillor who wasn't executed by Decepticons).

[roller]

there was a panel that said something like "After years of trying to take Iacon & failing at Seige warfare the Cons decide to nuke the place with missiles. "

rarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrhh watever

Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure

[GoktimusPrime]

As Wikipedia would say, citation needed. Source please.


Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure
Why?

[roller]

cause, even as a hardcore fan i know they are just rip offs of real martial arts, and for a good reason, they want to make tf society seem real.

But i still dont like the concept, their machines, they kill without swords, they have big freakin guns!!!
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[GoktimusPrime]

cause, even as a hardcore fan i know they are just rip offs of real martial arts, and for a good reason, they want to make tf society seem real.
Cos Hadouken-style energy expulsions and telekinesis (which Metallikato employs) exists in real martial arts (-_-) </sarcasm>

Diffusion is probably the only Cybertronian martial art which is the most realistic/non-fantasy martial art. All other Cybertronian martial arts employ 'fantasy' techniques. Circuit-Su uses Sith-like lightning blasts and Crystallocution attacks "fracture points" - kinda like the 'pressure point attacks' we see in fantasy martial arts movies (e.g.: Kung Fu Panda) only that it literally fractures the opponent's metallic skin/armour. This makes sense though - when you're employing martial arts against giant armoured super robots, you're gonna need something a bit beyond basic pugilism!


But i still dont like the concept, their machines, they kill without swords, they have big freakin guns!!!
wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
They're super robots - and as I said, their martial arts employ a lot of super fantasy techniques, which allow them to work against opponents who use artillery. It's like Jedi and Sith in Star Wars; they can't just be really good sword fighters, the Force becomes a convenient excuse to allow them to use melee weapons (i.e.: light sabres) against enemies with ranged weapons (i.e.: blasters). It absolutely doesn't work in real life (hence why modern soldiers don't fight with swords no more), but we're talking about fighting in a fantasy sense.

If you want to discuss realistic martial arts, please do so in the Martial Arts Discussion thread (in the non-Transformers section). This thread is for the discussion of Cybertronian warfare - and not just Cybertronian martial arts. If you don't like it then don't post here.

[Paulbot]

there was a panel that said something like "After years of trying to take Iacon & failing at Seige warfare the Cons decide to nuke the place with missiles. "
I can back Roller up on that quote, but can't recall where it was. I believe it might have been in Dreamwave or the Ultimate Guide, whereas Goktimus is referring to events in a text story in the UK comics.

Different "Universes" fellas, different wars.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah right. I was indeed talking about G1. Thanks for clearing that up. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=1349).


Why is (Dai Atlas) controversial?

Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion
http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion1.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion2.jpg

Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

[kup]

This conversation was spawned off from this thread about Transformers Victory and Zone (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=1349).



Because he's ruthless against his foes and takes no prisoners, which is unlike any other Autobot leader before him and many Japanese fans argue that it's against the spirit of what an Autobot leader should stand for. Using Convoy as a benchmark, they argue that an Autobot commander should always exercise mercy and compassion.

In Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile, it specifically states that his greatest weakness is his compassion. But it also states that without that compassion, he simply wouldn't be Optimus Prime - i.e.: that it's his compassion that helps define his character. Grimlock was even less merciful when he was first leader - to the point where he became a tyrant and was merciless against fellow Autobots... but the difference is that many Autobots under Grimlock's command were unhappy with his rule and it ultimately led to acts of desertion, mutiny and a limited Autobot civil war. Dai Atlas on the other hand is a widely celebrated leader who is loved by his Autobots and allies - to the point where Star Sabre allowed him to assume Autobot command while he went off the search for Convoy's body (so that he could be rebuilt as Star Convoy).

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

There are more and less compassionate ways of doing this. For example, the Cybertronian martial art of Diffusion is preferred by Autobots because it allows them to incapacitate an opponent without having to hurt them (it's primarily about submission holds and locks). Likewise with Jet-Judo.

Diffusion
http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion1.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion2.jpg

Dai Atlas' fighting mentality is more akin to what Decepticons would prefer and uncharacteristic of an Autobot, especially an Autobot supreme commander.

I don't know much about Dai Atlas as all I know is the stuff from Zone and that is already VERY limited.

Anyway, speaking of ruthless Autobots, the Wreckers from Marvel UK comics were downright ruthless towards Decepticons.

Here they are all happy and jolly after a 'Wreck and Rule!' carnage against Decepticons:

They are even playing around with Decepticon body parts! So much for Autobot Morality ;)
http://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/1/1d/Wreckersoriginallineup.jpg

[Bartrim]

Anyway, Metallikato and any other tf martial art is a load of Bartrim manure

I don't have any manure left Roller. Remember I cursed not insuring it coming back from my last holiday (see the abscence of saintly thread):p

Gok, where did you read so much about Circuit-Su?Not even the TF wiki has much info on that?

[Sam]

I read in those Dreamwave TF:MTMTE source books that "Pit Fighting" is a fighting style that is aimed at dishing out heavy / fatal hits in a short space of time. Supposedly guys like Grimlock use this style of fighting (but to me it seems to be a case of "Bigger guys hit harder").

Is this just another fancy way of saying "Beat the crap out of the enemy ASAP"?

It does not describe it enough for me to see that it's something "special" or a martial arts style (but perhaps I am using that term too narrowly).

Also .... I find that crystalocution (spelling?) style a bit confusing. Is it trying to say "I stab you with my fingers until you hurt" ?

:D

[GoktimusPrime]

Anyway, speaking of ruthless Autobots, the Wreckers from Marvel UK comics were downright ruthless towards Decepticons.

Here they are all happy and jolly after a 'Wreck and Rule!' carnage against Decepticons:

They are even playing around with Decepticon body parts! So much for Autobot Morality
Well I've heard a lot Japanese fans argue about morality from an Autobot supreme commander. But you're right - there are plenty of other Autobots out there which are quite brutal... like the Dinobots. But Dai Atlas' brutality is the main reason behind his lack of popularity within the Japanese Transfandom. It personally doesn't bother me because firstly he's not Optimus Prime and secondly it makes sense from a martial POV to be more ruthless in battle. I also give Zone writers kudos for trying to make Dai Atlas distinct from other Autobot leaders.


Gok, where did you read so much about Circuit-Su?Not even the TF wiki has much info on that?
Yeah... Transformers wiki has a lot of errors and missing information... don't even get me started about TF wiki... (-_-) I just saw their page on Circuit-Su. It has no bibliography. Yeah... *cough*

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.

http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/circuitsu1.jpghttp://www.geocities.com/jedi_vega/palpatine_files/image007.jpghttp://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/thumb/8/81/BZZZZZZ.jpg/250px-BZZZZZZ.jpg

[Bartrim]

Yeah... Transformers wiki has a lot of errors and missing information... don't even get me started about TF wiki... (-_-) I just saw their page on Circuit-Su. It has no bibliography. Yeah... *cough*

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.



Ah thank you. The only tf I was aware of that trained in circuit su is animated Prowl (I'm still learning about post season4G1 characters) and had no knowledge of him ever shooting 3,000 volt charges.:)

[GoktimusPrime]

From here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=4144&page=29).


I don't think Long Hauls look that much like any earth weapon, and as you say with a skill of 2
I didn't say they were Earthen hook swords, but they're definitely some kind of hook-blade. More than just sickles as the blade tips actually do hook around - different form and thus different techniques would be required to use them effectively.


he'd be better of with a simple peasant weapon than something wielded by a master.
Peasant weapons aren't necessarily easier to use. Examples of peasant weaponry include: sickles, nunchakus, staffs, tonfas, shurikens (ninja stars), tetsuboshi (caltrops) etc. For a person of relatively low skill the best weapon would actually be gun! All you gotta do is point and pull the trigger - compared to melee weapons, guns have a far lower level of skill required to use them in war.

That's why they were heralded with such enthusiasm in many cultures. It took years to master a sword or bow and arrow - but a rifleman could be trained in weeks. This in turn led to the advent of conscription. It became even easier with automatic machine guns. In Europe the gun became known as the "equaliser" because suddenly a man's physical attributes such as strength, speed, dexterity, skill etc. became far less relevant. A slow weakling wouldn't make a terribly effective swordsman or archer, but they could still become an effective rifleman.

Some cultures actually shunned firearms for this reason. During the Tokugawa Period in feudal Japan, guns were outlawed in Japan and looked down upon by the Samurai who considered guns to be a dishonourable coward's weapon as learning to become a rifleman doesn't require the same level of warrior's discipline as a sword or bow. This is also seen in Star Wars were the Jedi are basically Samurai in space with laser swords.

"Your father's light sabre. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or random as a blaster; an elegant weapon for a more civilised age." - Obi-Wan Kenobi (A New Hope)

"So uncivilised!" - Obi-Wan Kenobi, after using a blaster (Revenge of the Sith)

So yeah, if they were going to give Long Haul a skill of 2 they probably should've just given him a gun. As Triggerhappy always says, "Have gun have fun!" :D

[Lord_Zed]

From here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=4144&page=29).

I didn't say they were Earthen hook swords, but they're definitely some kind of hook-blade. More than just sickles as the blade tips actually do hook around - different form and thus different techniques would be required to use them effectively.


Peasant weapons aren't necessarily easier to use. Examples of peasant weaponry include: sickles, nunchakus, staffs, tonfas, shurikens (ninja stars), tetsuboshi (caltrops) etc. For a person of relatively low skill the best weapon would actually be gun! All you gotta do is point and pull the trigger - compared to melee weapons, guns have a far lower level of skill required to use them in war.



True enough, but if we are talking European weapons battle axes and halberds often have a hook like indent at the edge. Both wepaons were much cheaper than swords and commonly used by barbarians or the lower classes respectively. Both took a lot less trainning than the far more precise sword. I feel the most obvious feature of Long Haul's alien weapons are the cleaving edge which like the axe would deliver considerable damage and armour defeating ability in the hands of a strong mechanoid like Long Haul.

[liegeprime]

Anyway, according to Bugly's tech specs, "Practices the deadly martial art of Circuit-Su, which channels energy into one powerful electric blast. Electro-stingers in helmet deliver 3,000 volt charges that paralyze on contact." According to Dreamwave's "More Than Meets The Eye" it requires a heavy amount of psychic training.


Psychic training my a#@, give me a strong tesla coil and a megawatt power battery and were in business with this circuit-su thingie. More like "short circuit su":D:D. To me though Diffusion kinda works like Judo. I don't know much about real martial arts but from descriptions, Diffusion does looks like it was derived from that martial arts technique. While circuit su is indeed derived from them Kung Fu (grip?, hehe) pressure points attack, Metallikato, no idea.... care to elaborate a bit mebbe Gok. Wonder, how come there's no description of sword techniques as there certainly are a couple who uses said melee weapon anyways, Dinobots ( but I guess with them its more bash slice :P), Predacons, Megatron has one, yeah....they seem to have left that out.

[GoktimusPrime]

I feel the most obvious feature of Long Haul's alien weapons are the cleaving edge which like the axe would deliver considerable damage and armour defeating ability in the hands of a strong mechanoid like Long Haul.
I didn't even see his weapons as being axe-like until you mentioned it! Perhaps his blades are like those optical illusions where different people see different things. :p Now I'm thinking maybe his blades are a hybrid axe hook blade. Oooh!


To me though Diffusion kinda works like Judo. I don't know much about real martial arts but from descriptions, Diffusion does looks like it was derived from that martial arts technique.
That's not a bad comparison. :) Judo is a sport but it's derived from the martial art known as Jujutsu (which Rampage has training in :D). Jujutsu is a primarily grappling and submissive martial art which is very good for subduing an opponent but without necessarily needing to bash their heads in (since you're focusing on restraint rather than striking). Jujutsu isn't the only martial art which uses grappling and submissions (a lot of other styles do too, including traditional Greco-Roman Wrestling), but yeah - that's probably where you got the imagery of Judo from. :) Judo is a sport which involves grappling and throwing - I find it's really not very effective though. Most Judo players cannot throw you if you really don't want to be thrown, and their grapples and throws are pee-easy to counter, whereas a decent Jujutsu practitioner will _force_ you down and pin you in some painful crushing restraining hold (like an armbar (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Roark_armbar.jpg)). ;) But yeah, it's a relatively far more passive kind of martial art, what we call an "internal" martial art. The passive (yet very effective) nature of Diffusion makes it preferable for most Autobots ('cept more aggressively violent Autobots like Grimlock who uses Pit Fighting instead :p)


While circuit su is indeed derived from them Kung Fu (grip?, hehe) pressure points attack, Metallikato, no idea.... care to elaborate a bit mebbe Gok.
Crystalocution is the Cybetronian martial art which specialises in pressure point attacks. Circuit-Su is like the Dark Side of the Force with Sith Lightning attacks and Metallikato is like Street Fighter; Hadouken! It was Furman who later gave Bludgeon a sword and introduced swordsmanship into Metallikato's range. :)


Wonder, how come there's no description of sword techniques as there certainly are a couple who uses said melee weapon anyways, Dinobots ( but I guess with them its more bash slice :P), Predacons, Megatron has one, yeah....they seem to have left that out.
Bludgeon's tech specs makes no reference to swordsmanship since the toy never came with a sword. The early Beast Wars tech specs were also really _badly_ written - Hasbro only took more care after the cartoon came out; so yeah there's not a lot of information about any martial art techniques in Beast Wars. Dinobot was a very Samurai-like character so I think it would be reasonable to assume that as a Decepticon descendant his techniques were either some kind of Metallikato, or possibly a newer (Maximal/Predacon age) martial art derived from Metallikato. Sharp Edge's tech specs does describe him as an expert sword fighter but beyond that doesn't really go into much descriptive detail about his techniques (which would differ from other techniques being aquatic or amphibious).

[RageOnTheRoads]

From a military POV I think Dai Atlas' leadership style makes more sense. As cruel as it may seem, that is sadly the nature of war. As Optimus Prime's G1 Universe profile states, his compassion is his greatest weakness and it's a weakness which Dai Atlas doesn't have because he simply holds no compassion toward Decepticons. Unfortunately in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible.

Bah! Dai Atlas is a prat! Actually in a war war of ideologies Dai Atlas and his methods are one of the most counter productive, self defeating, hypocritical ways of fighting. In fact in while it's good for a body count in the short term, that kind of brutal 'effectiveness' :rolleyes: just creates more hateful, resentful soldiers and martyrs in your enemy over the long run. Not to mention the friggin inhumanity of it.

There is no such thing as the 'nature of war', just the nature of man and the weak, deluded, cruel, sadistic and fearful men and women who indulge or succumb to acts of evil because they can get away with it. Nothing and I do mean NOTHING justifies acts of cruelty and brutality or genocide. (3 War journalists in the family and 2 who have fought has left me with a bitter distaste for war. :p)

I agree with the Japanese fans here, Dai Atlas is one of those leaders I would be happy to see stricken form TF lore :D. Make no mistake Dai Atlas's aim was genocide and there is nothing more inhumane, more evil, than genocide. He was leader willing to stoop to any level to win the war, even denounce the very code of honour his side was founded upon. In the real world we have the Geneva Convention to protect against prats like him and the aforementioned people. :)

Plus, if you're fighting an ideological war in which your side embodies and fights for the qualities of freedom, truth etc, for all beings and you loose this in favour of becoming a ruthless cold killer, then what the is the point of the war!? It becomes nothing but a mindless, irrational squabble for simple selfish self gratification.

The reality is you have to hold a degree of compassion or at least some respect for the enemy or you will very quickly find yourself embodying many of their qualities you find so abhorrent. The second you believe you have the right to kill/maim/torture a person because of allegiance, religion or gender is the moment you yourself become an embodiment of evil.... In fact some of the most disgusting, unspeakable evils known to humanity have been committed by those who claim compassion has no place in war and hide behind the so called 'fog of war'.

Optimus Prime, on the other hand is the kind of leader I would unequivocally and with out any hesitation run head long into battle and lay down my life for. Someone who stands for higher ideals rather than a simplistic, animalistic need for survival. And who holds to those values despite all the evil the cons throw at him. *waves OP pompoms* :D
Like you say Gok, his compassion isn't a weakness, its what defines him and makes him an autobot The very fact that the Decepticons lack compassion is what makes them Decepticons, its how they are able to commit the atrocities that they do.

I remember so vividly my grand pappy telling me about his experiences during WWll. He enlightened me to the true nature of war and its varying grotesqueries. One of the things he told me - "it is so very, very easy, to succumb to the powerful allure of hatred and darkness that festers and grows all the more potent inside of us [during wartime]. No one is immune to it. I watched good men, good, but weak men sacrifice their humanity to the depravities that such hatred coaxes from us. It is only the strongest and most courageous of us that retains their compassion, decency, honour in the face of the unspeakable evils of war. Only the very strongest." Not his exact words, but the powerful message it left with me anyway. And it is for that very reason that in terms of awesome leaders Score :OP=100000000 Dai Atlas= -1000000000 and Michael Bay's OP= -infinity :D

Compassion aint a weakness in war Gok, its the single most important safe guard to your humanity.

[GoktimusPrime]

I pretty much agree with what you've said. Keep in mind that "good" and "evil" are often very subjective ideals. One person's definition of "good" can be seen as "evil" to someone else and vice versa. I once wrote this (http://www.transformersfanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=2853&chapter=1) fan fic based on a "heroic" Predacon (i.e.: seeing the Predacon cause from their POV and how they might see the Maximals as "evil").

In my post I said, "in war you just have to incapacitate your opponent's ability to continue fighting as quickly as possible" - killing your opponents isn't the only way to incapacitate them (but it is the most effective! But also the most incompassionate!). And yeah, it's because the Autobots come from a more altruistic school of morality that they would prefer more passive and self-defensive martial arts like Diffusion.

And Diffusion is based on real-life internal ("soft") martial arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neijia), which I personally prefer over more aggressive external ("hard") styles. External martial arts focus more on speed, ferocity, strength and agility whereas internal martial arts have more of a focus on self-awareness, relaxed leverage, and supple muscle tension (whereas external styles use brute force). Examples of internal martial arts IRL include:
* Jujutsu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNR9IBuDGDc)
* Aikido (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aicHsMC6rxM)
* Tai Chi/Taijiquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NagW6BImF8)
* Xingyiquan (Form Intention Boxing) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uP5OEjYVzKQ)
* Baguazhang (Eight Trigram Palm) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YbFLmiB7XE&feature=channel_page)
* Liuhebafa (Six Harmony Eight Methods) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN0gqzM4tUA)
* Northern Praying Mantis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M7M7rLxcYg)
...etc. Having said that, it's important to note that all martial arts have internal and external elements in them. Even though Karate is commonly classified as an external martial art, the Okinawan Karate style "Goju" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKeWZFDuigs) means "Hard and soft." And there are explosive movements in Taijiquan (particularly Chen style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuwxgvhbSVM&feature=fvw)).

-------------------------------------------------------
P.S.: Jet Judo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1GbTUX_mVc) is another 'internal' Cybertronian martial art - essentially a grappling/wrestling/submission style, only that your opponent is a supersonic jet in mid-flight! :D Bumblebee also used Diffusion when he fought Barricade in the 2007 movie. :)

[Rodimus]

http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion2.jpg

did the guy in the blue shirt stuff his knee? cos that pic doesn't look too good

btw i reckon tf movie jazz has the best moves, although his size was a lil lacking against megs i.e. got ripped in half

[GoktimusPrime]

did the guy in the blue shirt stuff his knee? cos that pic doesn't look too good
What's wrong with it? This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCQAN0RbGKQ) demonstrates a similar technique: with the main difference being that the video shows the defender's forward hand grabbing the elbow whereas the photo shows grabbing the shoulder (because the in our demonstration it starts off with the defender stepping on the attacker's outside whereas in the video the defender steps on the attacker's inside. MTMTE #8 (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/01/DW_MTMTE_8.jpg) shows an illustration of Ultra Magnus using a similar submission technique.


btw i reckon tf movie jazz has the best moves, although his size was a lil lacking against megs i.e. got ripped in half
His moves against Brawlastator were quite acrobatic, which was a homage to 1986's Transformers The Movie where Kup did something similar to latch onto Blitzwing's turret. It's a neat move that takes advantage of the fact that the Autobots can accelerate in car mode and then continue to use that momentum to propel them onto an opponent while transforming to robot mode. However the critical downside to this technique is that it leaves little margin for error, so you'd have to choose your moment carefully (and timing is one of the most crucial elements in a fight); with both Kup and Jazz they were attacking relatively stationary targets as both Brawl and Blitzwing were in tank mode blasting away (and not rolling at the time). This technique would realistically be far more difficult to employ against a fast moving opponent.

If you compare it with Jet Judo, both Sideswipe and Sunstreaker used their car modes to help propel them into the air, and then quickly transformed to robot mode while they continued to fly up toward their opponents (Seeker jets). This means that by time they attach or stick (or as the person on the above video would say "blend") onto their opponents, they're already in robot mode. This leaves them a greater margin for error as it means that if the initial attachment fails, they're not as completely vulnerable as they would be if they were in mid-transformation.

[Rodimus]

What's wrong with it? This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCQAN0RbGKQ) demonstrates a similar technique: with the main difference being that the video shows the defender's forward hand grabbing the elbow whereas the photo shows grabbing the shoulder (because the in our demonstration it starts off with the defender stepping on the attacker's outside whereas in the video the defender steps on the attacker's inside. MTMTE #8 (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/0/01/DW_MTMTE_8.jpg) shows an illustration of Ultra Magnus using a similar submission technique.


i was just referring to the guy in the blue shirt who has his right leg tucked in rather than stretched out like his left leg is which would hurt like hell as he's put his body weight onto it (oh my kneecaps, ankle, etc!)

http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/diffusion2.jpg

yeah that move is one of the very first moves they teach you in jujitsu which basically diverts the attacker's momentum and forces them to faceplant using their own momentum. ive been studying jujitsu for a few years now but i've never had a new student fall down like that (yet)

[Sam]

Hey, I was curious about the hadouken style fireball thing that some TFs can do (I think Bludgeon can do this).

Did the original Marvel comics show him being able to do this or was it a more recent "invention" (i.e. could it possibly have been influenced by things such as SF2 and/or DragonBall Z)?

[GoktimusPrime]

i was just referring to the guy in the blue shirt who has his right leg tucked in rather than stretched out like his left leg is which would hurt like hell as he's put his body weight onto it (oh my kneecaps, ankle, etc!)
Looks can be deceiving. ;)

Seriously though, the handsome devil in the blue shirt is trying to prevent himself from being forced to lie prostrate on the ground. This is because if the person in black is able to get the blue person lying fully prostrate, then he can really effectively pin him and lock him onto the ground. The blue person is kicking his right leg in in an attempt to gain footing and then try to counter-manoeuvre himself out of the black shirted person's hold. It may not be the prettiest thing to behold - but fighting isn't about looking good, it's about survival.

The fully completed lock looks something like this (http://asujujitsu.org/images/Fall%202003%20Pics/P-sept8,03-ikkyo_restraint.jpg). Notice that the yellow belt is lying fully prostrate and the green belt has the yellow belt's wrist bent and is driving downward pressure into the green belt's shoulder, thus keeping him trapped onto the ground. At this point there is effectively no way the yellow belt can escape this lock. There are various ways you can counter the lock but it must be done before the person performing the lock can get you lying prostrate and completing the lock. Once a lock is completed you can't get out of it - hence why it's called a lock! :D

If you look at this (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200711/r205666_782673.jpg) image of a police officer locking a suspect, you can see that the suspect is lying fully prostrate while the officer has both knees on his back and applying downward pressure. That suspect is _not_ getting up until the restraining officer gets off him! Different technique but same principle.

If you'd like I can give you a simple demonstration at the next Parramatta Fair meet - there's a nice big grassy area across from Parramatta Town Hall. Don't worry you won't get hurt (providing that you cooperate with my instructions :)). Or maybe if Rampage is coming I can demonstrate with him since he's a trained grappler. (^_^)

[Rodimus]

if that right leg is there as a countermeasure, it will be a very painful one

if the dude in the blue shirt is already in that position, any attempt to get upright can easily be countered by the dude with the black shirt by levering on his already extended arm/wrist which will only force him more onto the ground

he cant use is left arm as its keeping his face off the ground and he has already compromised his center of gravity so its game over unless the hold on his arm is sloppy and he can manage to roll away to the side

i've done this move so many times as both attacker and defender that i can do it in my sleep. i don't really think i'll need to revisit that part of my training unless theres a real need for it, but thanks for the offer gok

[GoktimusPrime]

if that right leg is there as a countermeasure, it will be a very painful one
It wasn't. The photo is meant to be showing the blue guy getting pwned anyway. :p


if the dude in the blue shirt is already in that position, any attempt to get upright can easily be countered by the dude with the black shirt by levering on his already extended arm/wrist which will only force him more onto the ground
Which he could also counter-counter. This would be and endless scenario debate because every move can be countered and every counter can be counter-countered... in terms of grappling everything is effectively moot until the lock is completed.

You're probably right though - the blue guy would most likely get pwned -- but that was the entire point of that demonstration. It's the guy in the black shirt who's demonstrating the actual move. The handsome guy in blue is attempting to resist/struggle; whether it's an effective resistance or not is debatable. I prefer it over other demos where the person being grappled is fully compliant and doesn't attempt to struggle which is totally unrealistic. If you try to wrestle someone to the ground of _course_ they're going to try to get out of it! :) That's the thing that annoys me whenever I flick through a martial arts magazine on newstands and look at all those silly photographic sequences where the attacker is usually fully placid and compliant. Even in that video link I attached in post #24 - notice how the attacker STOPS attacking after throwing his first punch?! I prefer demonstrations or instructional photos/videos where the attacker continues his attack and continues to struggle and fight for the entire duration of the melee, like in this knife defence demo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-uH93EQzKs). ;)

[Rodimus]

yeah nothings impossible but the odds are heavily stacked against the blue shirt dude. there are some locks that have a very limited window of opportunity followed very quickly with the point of no return

i agree im more a realist in terms of fight scenarios and our dojo is heavily street orientated. our pracs reflect this as it often involves multiple attackers (from 3 or more) and a LOT of bukijutsu (weapons like knives, bats, clubs, guns, etc).

i can't help analysing fight scenarios, i suppose its just the way my brain has been programmed now. sometimes I can't even relax and watch kung fu / action flicks without over analysing.

yeah so when i saw that pick i thought wow that must've hurt a bit even if done slowly

[GoktimusPrime]

yeah nothings impossible but the odds are heavily stacked against the blue shirt dude. there are some locks that have a very limited window of opportunity followed very quickly with the point of no return
Yup, totally agree. :)

i can't help analysing fight scenarios, i suppose its just the way my brain has been programmed now. sometimes I can't even relax and watch kung fu / action flicks without over analysing.
I'm the same! I'm very nitpicky whenever I see action and fight scenes in movies! That's why although a lot of other people complain about the fast, furious, shaky and blurry fight scenes in Transformers, I like them because that's what real fights are like! Give me a realistic looking messy and dirty brawl over pretty, clean and elegant choreography like in The Matrix or your typical Hong Kong action flick. That's not to say that there isn't any beauty in watching martial arts or fighting; but it's a different form of beauty than what I think most movie-goers prefer. Most action movies have these acrobatic and gymnastic stunts, which look great but aren't very realistic.

And yes, Transformers have a lot of acrobatic moves too, but they're giant super robots so they're able to perform feats beyond human standards. They're also a lot more durable considering that they have armour plating and force shields. Megatron has no scrotum, so he can happily deliver that really high head kick that we saw in the forest fight. I'd never use a kick like that IRL because for some reason I kinda don't like being hit in the janglies! (>o<) I guess that's why we never saw Devastator going for any high kicks (badaboom TISH!) :D