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View Full Version : The Soapbox II: The Problem with Jets



STL
2nd July 2008, 01:33 AM
This one has been irking away at me for a while now. With a deep appreciation for the Aerialbots, I stumbled upon this topic when I was busily rummaging through the database of TFU (a great mob) and my own collection for jets that could be re-customised into Classics Aerialbots. To my dismay, there are so few modern robots that satisfy the criteria for an Aerialbot. The Aerialbots, as a common characteristic, did not have their cockpits as a key feature of their body. There chests were dominated by pegs that supported their combiner form. This can’t surely be right, I told myself. With the rapid advance of engineering over the past decade, surely they’ve been able to construct an aesthetically pleasing Transformer w/out relying on the cockpit, right?

Wrong. They haven’t.

As my searches went on and on, the only toys not dominated by a jet cockpit harkened back to the nostalgic days of G1 It slowly sunk in that the there are few modern jets/planes that don’t feature a cockpit and I’ve come to one conclusion:

Without using the cockpit as a central chest feature, it just isn’t possible to make a good jet.

If we look at the upcoming Classics 2.0 Silverbolt, it’s painfully obvious that the toy is utterly disappointing. The transformation is so incredibly simplistic that one must beg the question why they should pay an Ultra price point for what is ultimately one of the laziest pieces of engineering to scar our retail outlets in recent times? There are Scouts more cleverly designed that it.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5504/silverboltxu2.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverboltxu2.jpg)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/2673/silverbolt2sf3.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=silverbolt2sf3.jpg)


It’s a bit harder to draw too many inferences from Classics 2.0 Powerglide at this early stage. It may yet be a good toy but prima facie those thrusters remind one more of one of the opposite sex’s most alluring assets rather than enhancing the visual appearance of the toy. However, it could be possible that Hasbro and Takara tried to hard with those and should’ve kept them simple instead of going the route of electronic and sounds.

An6ther recent toy without the cockpit as dominant chest feature is Cybertron Wing Saber (or TFM Wingblade). A well-articulated toy but there’s few who will deny it is a glorified brick. It is back-heavy and has a propensity to fall flat on its face or onto its undignified backside.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5577/wingsaberafpbn1.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wingsaberafpbn1.jpg)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9307/wingsaberrfpfv5.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wingsaberrfpfv5.jpg)

I would add Energon/Superlink Jetfire/Overcast to this category of failures too. He’s a more well-balanced toy than Cybertron Wing Saber but if you look underneath, it’s plain to the naked eye where everything lies.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8629/energonjetfire1cl3.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=energonjetfire1cl3.jpg)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/3478/energonjetfireos9.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=energonjetfireos9.jpg)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/4926/energonjetfire2lm1.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=energonjetfire2lm1.jpg)


Consider too Cybertron Soundwave/Classics 2.0 Blaster. The toy gets away with not using the cockpit as a chest feature but if you look underneath, it’s painfully obvious where everything sits. The biggest problem one has with the toy is aligning it. To give it some credit though, the cockpit works quite well as a shield. If it were not for the fact that this toy does do justice to the robot form of G1 Soundwave it’d be tough to like this toy.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9072/soundwave1le5.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=soundwave1le5.jpg)


Perhaps the only success that one can look on with approval in recent times is Energon Skyblast who was repainted into two TFM scouts: Skyblast and Air Raid. However, the toy is hindered by the fact that the leg articulation is severely limited by the fact that the legs must swing inwards to cover the arms in jet mode. It remains a great toy though for a figure of its size. Perhaps if it had been larger, those faults would have been ironed out.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/1631/skyblast1iz1.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skyblast1iz1.jpg)

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/8841/skyblast2oj5.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=skyblast2oj5.jpg)


So why then is the cockpit such a necessary feature?

The first reason of which is that it provides texture. It gives the chest angles and allows the toy to be more interesting in appearance. The possibility of using different shades of clear plastic on the cockpit allows the designer to add an eye-catching feature to the chest without having to be extravagant with the underbelly. The shape and design of cockpits go a long way to enhancing the body of the robot mode. Without it, you are generally left with relying on the underbelly of the jet which for all intents and purposes is weak. You don’t want to look under the toy and see the entire robot mode there already, do you?

And that’s exactly the problem with toys like Cybertron Wing Saber and Classics 2.0 Silverbolt.

More importantly if you think about it, with the design of a jet it becomes almost necessary to rely on the cockpit as a centerpiece of the body. The reason for this is that if you think about it opposite ends of many a Transformer are generally used as legs and chests. With that in mind would you really want to throw away the visual appeal of a cockpit which gives you much more to work with and use the tail ends as a dominant body feature? Probably not. The tail ends just don’t enhance the appearance of a robot mode because you have to also contend with the fact that right next to them generally are the jet thrusters. Those are pretty hard to make dominant chest features now, aren’t they?

The only place that the thrusters have been used as something else, other than as part of the robot mode legs, generally have been as arms. But how desirable is this really? Not much to be terribly honest. We like fists that can hold weapons or have human features. Take for instance TFM Dreadwing or Overcast. They look cumbersome. Heck, even on Cybertron Wing Saber who has gattling gun turrets as his fingers it is annoying. It might yet still work but it strips the robot mode of a key feature. So that rules out the tail end as being a viable option as a chest feature.


http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5384/overcastry2.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=overcastry2.jpg)


And that leaves you with the cockpit as your primary choice as either arms or chest. More often than not it’s going to be body for the abovementioned reasons. And from this fan’s point of view that’s disappointing. He wants some bodies he can use for custom Aerialbots and he might have to wait a long time before he can find some appropriate ones. That or make some compromises.

The final reason for why we have so many jets using their cockpit is quite simple really but obvious if we turn our minds to it. Who do we as a fandom first think of when we talk about Transformers who are jets? The Seekers.


http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/6647/seekersvc8.jpg (http://img329.imageshack.us/my.php?image=seekersvc8.jpg)


And therein perhaps is one of the principle reasons why the engineering of jets has progressed in the direction that it has. The emphasis on jets that use their cockpit is borne out of fandom’s adoration for the Seekers. Starscream is frequently the first designed jet in any series. Designers therefore begin to have a greater appreciation with the nuances and mechanics of designing a good looking jet using the cockpit. For toys that don’t, they have fewer points of reference, fewer ideas that they can build on. Toy designing, I imagine, is a learning process. And the repository of knowledge of our toy designers have accumulated when it comes to jets seems to be Seeker centric.

From a technical point of view, I would love to see a designer at Hasbro or Takara take this bull by the horns and show us otherwise. Until then, I’m afraid we’ll have to be content with jets that require cockpits as their dominant chest feature (and there’s nothing wrong with that, mind you, as long as it’s a good toy) or else get jets that will only ever aspire to mediocrity.

Pulse
2nd July 2008, 10:36 AM
It sure makes you think...

Of all the various jets & their transformations they've done over the years, Alot of them look way too simplistic. It's as though they designed one mode first & the other mode became a rushjob - a secondary afterthought. :(

By far & away, the Classics Seekers seem to have had equal amounts of development & attention dedicated to both their modes - & the results speak for themselves. :D

I'm guessing car TFs from various lines & their transformations is in the pipeline... ;)

STL
2nd July 2008, 11:03 AM
Guys, just wanted feedback too. Did we like the pics or would we rather no pics?

Pulse
2nd July 2008, 11:18 AM
Pics = :)

When it comes to TFs, you can never have enough pics :)

Burn
2nd July 2008, 12:42 PM
Definitely with pics. My brain isn't all too good about remembering some of the lesser known characters in recent lines.

On a similar tangent, this same discussion could be said for cars and their hoods/bonnets. How many of those fold down to form the chest?

Golden Phoenix
2nd July 2008, 03:21 PM
I always thought that Titanium War Within Jetfire was a pretty good transformation. Sure it needed some work but most of the problems were because it was in the Titanium series.
If they raised the legs in vehicle mode higher, and made it a little more streamline, it could be made into a pretty decent jet

roller
2nd July 2008, 06:10 PM
STL you talk too much:)

Aeriabots rock!!!!

Verno
2nd July 2008, 06:17 PM
They could do what they did with TM Waspinator, use the jet cockpit as a cock protector :p

kurdt_the_goat
2nd July 2008, 06:36 PM
The Ironman crossover has a splitting nosecone to create his hip guard thingies, which i think works pretty well:
http://i.marvelousnews.com/g/generated/Hasbro/Transformers/08_Toy_Fair/Transformers-Iron-Man_01__scaled_600.jpg

I think Animated Leader Megatron is one of the best examples of a good design without using the cockpit as a chest, but he's not a jet :)

kup
2nd July 2008, 06:37 PM
They could do what they did with TM Waspinator, use the jet cockpit as a cock protector :p

True. :D

That's one unique way of doing it :)

Lord_Zed
2nd July 2008, 06:45 PM
If always using the cockpit for a chest on TF jets is your biggest pet peeve then I think you got of lightly. I'd rather rant about how every recent TF jet has a fat undercarrige, even the classics seekers for all thier funkyness look like they've been putting on weight in jet mode. While I can name countless great car TF's from the past 10 years, I find it difficult to name more than 2 moulds from the jet family, and they'd probably be the new Seeker mould and the MP Seeker mould so 2 for the Seekers.

One of the reasons I'm sure its difficult for the designers to make a great jet mode is perhaps because jets are mean't to be sleek and thin, and somewhat stretched so there's not a great deal of mass to work with, a car on the other hand is pretty much a box with wheels so that's way easier to unfold. In most aircraft the bulkiest parts are the engine and nosecone/cockpit so its no suprise these parts are used for the legs and body the two bulkiest parts of a humanoid. Perhaps if they spent more effort giving the larger TF size classes clever transformations then we'd see some different designs, but they don't instead they go for the easy option and just pack in a fat batter pack, or add a missile gimmick, or other springloaded doodad and voila another flying tank.

My other rant about jets would be they use the same craft over and over again, seems like every second TF jet is a f15 or f16 or a Sci fi flying brick. You'd think they could try something different. I kinda like movie Dreadwing cause they did try things differently in terms of the jet used and transformation, he was half a step in the right direction but once again the gimmicks got in the way, he had to have big fat arms to fire his missiles and what not. Such a cool jetmode and such a bad robot mode, but I still like him better than the movie Starscream toy.

Ah well lets all just hope that they manage to pull of Universe Cyclonus. Cross your fingers everybody.

PS: yeah the pics are good.

Paulbot
2nd July 2008, 08:23 PM
Skyshadow(Terradive) is one of my favourite toys from the Energon combiners (and Energon in general), and doesn't have a cockpit on his chest or back... it's his foot. Skyshadow was a nice Powerglide substitute, although it's not as flashy a jet as other jet fighters.

roller
2nd July 2008, 10:12 PM
"The Aerialbots are takin' their shot! Silverbolt blasts the combaticons, they can all be ch ch changed to be re-arranged, to form a super robot

Superion!!!!

TransssssssssssFormers!!!!"

STL
7th July 2008, 12:27 AM
Skyshadow(Terradive) is one of my favourite toys from the Energon combiners (and Energon in general), and doesn't have a cockpit on his chest or back... it's his foot. Skyshadow was a nice Powerglide substitute, although it's not as flashy a jet as other jet fighters.

Having recently dug him up to form Superion Maximus, I have to agree he's pretty cool. I like the lack of symmetry, it works very well. I hope they sneak him in as a movie scout. :rolleyes:


If always using the cockpit for a chest on TF jets is your biggest pet peeve then I think you got of lightly. I'd rather rant about how every recent TF jet has a fat undercarrige, even the classics seekers for all thier funkyness look like they've been putting on weight in jet mode. While I can name countless great car TF's from the past 10 years, I find it difficult to name more than 2 moulds from the jet family, and they'd probably be the new Seeker mould and the MP Seeker mould so 2 for the Seekers.

One of the reasons I'm sure its difficult for the designers to make a great jet mode is perhaps because jets are mean't to be sleek and thin, and somewhat stretched so there's not a great deal of mass to work with, a car on the other hand is pretty much a box with wheels so that's way easier to unfold. In most aircraft the bulkiest parts are the engine and nosecone/cockpit so its no suprise these parts are used for the legs and body the two bulkiest parts of a humanoid. Perhaps if they spent more effort giving the larger TF size classes clever transformations then we'd see some different designs, but they don't instead they go for the easy option and just pack in a fat batter pack, or add a missile gimmick, or other springloaded doodad and voila another flying tank.

My other rant about jets would be they use the same craft over and over again, seems like every second TF jet is a f15 or f16 or a Sci fi flying brick. You'd think they could try something different. I kinda like movie Dreadwing cause they did try things differently in terms of the jet used and transformation, he was half a step in the right direction but once again the gimmicks got in the way, he had to have big fat arms to fire his missiles and what not. Such a cool jetmode and such a bad robot mode, but I still like him better than the movie Starscream toy.

Ah well lets all just hope that they manage to pull of Universe Cyclonus. Cross your fingers everybody.

PS: yeah the pics are good.

Oh, make no mistake. I definitely agree with your complaints. I just wanted to confine my discussion to the one thing irking me the most since I was trying to find fodder for custom Aerialbots. But you're absolutely right. There's so few good jets out there and Hasbro really need to lift their game. In my mind, it comes down to the Seekers. They're so limiting. I love the homages but the con is that it limits the design and ingenuity that designers might otherwise use if they didn't think within such a limited mindset. :(

Tober
7th July 2008, 02:23 AM
If only...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/AUST_Tober/sss01.jpg

Oh well.


I lurk on MacrossWorld alot and there is discussion about why most Transformers jets suck from time to time. Basically what Zed said: it's difficult to get alot of volume out of such a highly streamlined machine. Designers are largely forced to add mass to the fuselage and hard points with the hope that no one really notices the underside of the jet as much (see sig). However it is theoretically possible:

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/AUST_Tober/post-26-1089852441.jpg

Soundwarp
7th July 2008, 09:56 AM
Guys, just wanted feedback too. Did we like the pics or would we rather no pics?

Dude that was awesome, i don't usually like reading too much but that was cool!

STL
7th July 2008, 11:32 AM
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj230/AUST_Tober/post-26-1089852441.jpg

OMG! Tober have those actually been released? I would love a few of them.

Tober
7th July 2008, 11:41 AM
OMG! Tober have those actually been released? I would love a few of them.

No, unfortunately it's just a fan work from a 3D art magazine. :(

I does bear a vague resemblence to the Yamato 1/60 YF-21 (http://www.hlj.com/product/YMT00067) tho. Ofcorse being Macross it has the cockpit as the mid section and the legs coming from the fuselage as they almost all do.

Lord_Zed
7th July 2008, 12:02 PM
No, unfortunately it's just a fan work from a 3D art magazine. :(

I does bear a vague resemblence to the Yamato 1/60 YF-21 (http://www.hlj.com/product/YMT00067) tho. Ofcorse being Macross it has the cockpit as the mid section and the legs coming from the fuselage as they almost all do.

I love the way the Yf 19, and Sv 51 contort the jets nosecone and fuselage to form the torso. Although its not a huge jump from the cockpit chest they at least alter its shape and cover it up.

Tober
15th July 2008, 08:45 PM
I love the way the Yf 19, and Sv 51 contort the jets nosecone and fuselage to form the torso. Although its not a huge jump from the cockpit chest they at least alter its shape and cover it up.

Yep, and ofcourse the VF-25.



Also I completely forgot about Universe Tankor.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2670177374_370ca2f038_b.jpg