Need Help

[gamblor916]

To continue with the investigation of your complaint, we must request documentation to support your claim that the item is not authentic. Please obtain a document from an unbiased, third-party, such as a dealer, appraiser, or an organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than yourself), which clearly identifies the item as not authentic. The document must specifically state how the item received differs from an authentic item and must include a detailed explanation of how the person evaluating the item determined that it is not authentic. If possible, the document should include a serial number, and must be on letterhead that includes the name, address, and phone number of the business or organization so that PayPal may contact them if necessary.


In a recent ebay transaction someone sold me some KO cassettes labeled as vintage. As I'm not going to let them get away with it can anyone provide me with such a document to prove the differences or point me in the right direction. The cassettes are Ratbat, Ravage and Buzzsaw.

[Soundwarp]

Well i believe that "OZFormers" is an organization qualified in the area to support your claim.
Pics of them?
Link to the sale?

[liegeprime]

mayhaps Gok can help.... he's one of the meticulous resource persons I know who can provide dissertation like analysis and explanations to point out differences between an original and fake TF. Wish Ozformers has a letterhead though.... would need Griffins approval of course hehehe. Or ask Tiby he's a lawyer AND a certified TF collector at the same time - sorry couldnt provide much help only can try and point you to some more " resource person" types I know.:(

[gamblor916]

Ok here's what I have.

Item: 320252107011 - vintage G1 RAVAGE perfect condition
Item: 320253563408 - G1 Ratbat 100% complete good condition
Item: 320253563493 - vintage G1 buzzsaw perfect condition

http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6020252.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110273.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110274.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110276.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110279.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110281.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110282.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110286.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110287.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110290.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110291.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110293.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110294.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110296.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110297.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110300.jpg
http://home.exetel.com.au/leducly/photos/P6110301.jpg

Yes I should have been more wary but two of them aren't exactly rare and were going for what I thought a normal price.

[GoktimusPrime]

Check out Fred's Transformers Variants and Variations Page - it covers all the legit variants and variations of Transformers and w/ lots of photos.

http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/vquanda.html

Good luck

PS: This thread from TFW2005 (http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-115374.html) apparently has photos of KO cassettes.

[kup]

With Ratbat its easy. If he doesn't fit in a G1 (original) Soundwave chest then its fake. I know that one from experience as I was also duped in getting a fake 'vintage' KO.

[STL]

Maybe try contacting Hasbro themselves? With their recent trend in cracking down, they might yet support you. I'm not sure where else we can get anything official other than the list of websites from the above that other guys have mentioned. Best of luck, man. It makes me worried too. Ratbat is one of the few I really want but don't trust anyone enough to ever take the risk.

Hopefully Takara re-releases him at some point. :rolleyes:

[Burn]

Just out of curiosity were these loose or carded?

If loose, this is what I was worried about, KO's sellers busting them out of the packets and selling them loose and passed off as originals.

Best of luck with your claim though.

[Robzy]

Yeah, especially some of those KO stickers... they've been lifted and scratched, like the seller has tried to "age" them. That's worrying! :(

This sux Gamblor. Best of luck!

[gamblor916]

They were loose. I was only after a decent Buzzsaw and I saw the seller had others as well.
As for identifying them I saw straight away they were KOs when I opened the package. I have plenty of real ones to compare them with so it was easy to spot. The problem is proving it to paypal through a third party.

[kup]

They were loose. I was only after a decent Buzzsaw and I saw the seller had others as well.
As for identifying them I saw straight away they were KOs when I opened the package. I have plenty of real ones to compare them with so it was easy to spot. The problem is proving it to paypal through a third party.

Take photos of the original and KOs side by side and point out the discrepancies.

[Burn]

Great. I figured this sort of stuff would happen. Now that Hasbro's cracked down on the KO's we'll no doubt see more loose KO's being passed off as the genuine item.

Just bombard Paypal with the evidence you have here, and maybe check out other forums. I know Seibertron.com has a thread dedicated to identifying KO's (though it's not really organised) so other places might have something similar.

[griffin]

Echoing Burn, I guessed as well that dealers stuck with KOs, would try to offload the stock loose, with the claim of them being genuine. It is harder to pick them as being KOs in ebay photos that way. This was why I was totally against the sale and promotion of KOs from the very beginning, because once they are loose, they will circulate themselves as genuine ones on the secondary market.

[Pulse]

If you were trying to flog off KO cassettes, it wouldn't be that hard to "age them".

I mean, leave 'em under a bright light for a while & scratch 'em here and there... Take a dodgy Ebay photo & who's gonna know the difference :(

I'm sorry to hear about your cassettes Gamblor, I hope they didn't cost you too much... :(

[Fungal Infection]

You might find it hard to get a claim on the Ratbat since the buyer hasn't actively called it a genuine item in his auction nor has he called it a KO. I should know cause I got a KO Ratbat last year with a similar description and after making a complaint, he told me not to assume it was a genuine item and that I should have asked beforehand (the auction made no mention of whether it was KO or genuine, just that it was a complete G1 Ratbat). So I accepted it but I'm more weary to ask questions before bidding. But you have perfect grounds on the other 2 since he does state they are vintage items in the title.

[Soundwarp]

:( What is the definition of Vintage though......

Man this sux!

[dirge]

Fungal: It doesn't matter whether the seller states it's a genuine item or not. Selling items that violate copyright is against eBay's rules, regardless.

[griffin]

I agree. If the seller used the word 'Transformers' in the listing at all, then it has to be a legit toy. They can't claim that you shouldn't assume it is genuine, because they used the 'genuine' brand name on that product. If it was a KO, they can't list it as 'Transformers' or use the name as if it was the real thing. Using that brand name in their listing is all the proof you need of them listing an illegal product (if it turns out to be a KO).

[Robzy]

I totally agree! But I've got a quick question...

I know ignorance is not a defence, but some sellers might say they really didn't know there was a difference. The question is, if they use "Transformers" in the listing, then it has to be a "legit" Transformer, right? But, just putting KOs aside for one minute... how many GoBots or Machine Men do we see listed as "Original Transformers"... surely that's misidentifying those items too, isn't it?

Now, Machine Men aren't KOs, but they're certainly not Transformers either! Yet both MM and KOs are often listed as genuine TFs!

[GoktimusPrime]

A KO Transformer falls under what eBay classifies as a "counterfeit item" which is strictly forbidden under eBay policy.

[gamblor916]

Thanks for the info guys, I'll just fire off a few letters and things and see how it goes. It's not really a big loss, I'm just disappointed at the seller's attitude and the hoops paypal make you jump through to get things done.
I just have one lot to come plus maybe some weapons and things but for the most part I think I'm done with ebay.

[kup]

I want to take a break from Ebay too but when I do, crap that I want appears at excellent prices!

Damn you Skystalker, I need you!

[STL]

I want to take a break from Ebay too but when I do, crap that I want appears at excellent prices!


Ain't that the truth!

[Burn]

Getting back to how E-Bay shouldn't be selling any TF's that aren't genuine TF's ...

What about customs? They're not exactly genuine TF's and the homeages certaintly aren't licensed.

[dirge]

What about customs? They're not exactly genuine TF's and the homeages certaintly aren't licensed.

While strictly speaking they classify as a breach of copyright, they'd likely be let alone by Hasbro since they're art rather than for-profit copying. Plus the originals are legit anyway :)

[GoktimusPrime]

It depends on the custom - primarily depending on if the character is an infringement of copyright. If you were to kitbash a schoolbus that transformed into a robot using bits of models and action figures (e.g. Gundam, Transformers etc) then it's not a breech of copyright afaik. But if you were to make and sell say Masterpiece Swoop, then yes, that is a breech of copyright because that character is a copyright trademark (and that includes name and likeness).

Years ago ToyFare magazine published an article where eBay staff stated that such customs were illegal and that such action would be taken if such auctions are brought to the attention of eBay staff - I imagine that they usually just cancel the auction.

But as dirge said, I don't think it's something that Hasbro is specifically targetting.