Spark vs Brain Module

[Jinto]

I'm wondering what people think the actual purpose is for these two items.
There seems to be a lot of overlap between the two and it always bugs me a bit. For the purpose of this discussion we can probably stick to Beast Wars/Machines and the IDW continuity, since BW introduced the Spark and IDW has made sparks & brain modules a big part of its recent stories.

So according to tfwiki the spark is the 'soul' of a transformer, and the brain module contains the bots thoughts and personality. However we have seen many cases where a spark has been switched between bodies and the 'mind' of the transformer has gone with it.
- Starscream takes over Waspinator in BW
- Megatron in Beast Machines
- Delinquishment Clinics in IDW
- (debatable) *spoiler* The Vehicon Generals in BM were claimed to be the reprogrammed sparks of the missing Maximals.
- (debatable) Megatron going from his Stealth Bomber body to his new body in the recent RID comic.

So what is the point of the brain module? It can't be the transformers thoughts and personality because then there wouldn't be any need for a spark. I mean you could just power it with good old electricity and you'd have a fully operational sparkles transformer, wouldn't you?
And as we've seen in IDW's MTMTE shadow play storyline, a TF can have his mind altered by tampering with his brain module.

But we've also seen bots die when their brain module (computer core in Beast Wars?) is destroyed.
- Blackarachnia is killed when her shell program attaches her 'core' in Beast Wars.
- (debatable) Many bots are indicated to be killed when their heads are crushed or destroyed. This takes for granted that their spark isnt housed in their head.

What do you all think? I'd love some good opinions and discussion about this. :)

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

- (debatable) The Vehicon Generals in BM were claimed to be the reprogrammed sparks of the missing Maximals. Er, *spoiler* :p
thanks for including that <:-/

Aaah, the old theological debate.

One could think of it that the brain module controls the body movements, whereas the spark holds the personality.

No spark = no motivation/ the character you know ceases to exist. (like a clinically brain-dead person)
No brain = no ability for movement. Like a ??? Um. can't think of an example as there is no proof of souls existing.

How's that?

[Trent]

Well, I don't know how much my opinions worth since I haven't read the new comics, but I interpret the spark to be, as you said, the 'soul' or essence of a TF. I see the brain module as the link between the spark and TF's body and the physical universe. The brain module forms the personality, traits ,etc, as well as performing all the lower functions (equivalent to breathing, regulating body temperature, etc). It also acts as an interpreter for the spark in 2 ways. It allows the essence of the TF to 'be', for lack of a better word. It also interprets the actions and experiences and sends them back to the spark in order for it to feel and grow.

Here's my take on Megatron; I don't think that his spark is evil or necessarily bad. It is very strong willed, commanding, focused, cunning, etc. But combine these traits with the experiences he has had, both within his own mind and those he witnessed around him in his environment, with the traits of his spark and you end up with the Meg's we all know and love.

Give him a different life, with him walking a different path under different circumstances, those same traits could make him an excellent leader of the forces of good. Inversely Prime, given the right circumstances and his spark's inherent traits, could make him a far worse harbringer of evil than Megatron.

Think nature/nurture. ;)

[Paulbot]

- (debatable) Many bots are indicated to be killed when their heads are crushed or destroyed. This takes for granted that their spark isnt housed in their head.

Remember Rossum's trinity. Enough damage to either the spark or brain (or cog) will kill a Transformer.

I think the spark downloads (or backs up) the brain when it's removed from the body, such as the transfers. Except for the odd mutant spark (ghost) like Starscream, a disembodied spark can't really act on its own. Even the birth of a Transformer (spark into robot, forged or constructed cold) apparently needs manual intervention. So a spark with no brain keeps the essence of a TF but isn't conscious. (I think that's partly how the Garrus jail worked). When the spark is placed back in the body or in a new TF body the memories download. Manual manipulation of the brain could still leave permament personality changes that are copied across.

The brain module is their mind, memories, personality etc. Their spark is the crucial part that makes them more than a machine. It's their irreplaceable core to their being.

[kup]

Remember Rossum's trinity. Enough damage to either the spark or brain (or cog) will kill a Transformer.

I think the spark downloads (or backs up) the brain when it's removed from the body, such as the transfers. Except for the odd mutant spark (ghost) like Starscream, a disembodied spark can't really act on its own. Even the birth of a Transformer (spark into robot, forged or constructed cold) apparently needs manual intervention. So a spark with no brain keeps the essence of a TF but isn't conscious. (I think that's partly how the Garrus jail worked). When the spark is placed back in the body or in a new TF body the memories download. Manual manipulation of the brain could still leave permament personality changes that are copied across.

The brain module is their mind, memories, personality etc. Their spark is the crucial part that makes them more than a machine. It's their irreplaceable core to their being.

That makes the most sense to me. I think you got the right explanation.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

thanks for including that <:-/




- (debatable) The Vehicon Generals in BM were claimed to be the reprogrammed sparks of the missing Maximals. Er, *spoiler* :p

Blahhh, my min read that comment as Vehicon generals from Prime. Damn. I thought it was a remarkable plot movement for Prime...:p

[Jinto]

thanks for including that <:-/


Sorry, I figured since it was a 15yr old show no one would be in danger of actually having it spoiled... I'll highlight it black.

[Jinto]

I like your way of looking at it, Paulbot. That makes a lot of sense.

[Cat]

Brain module = brain

Cog = heart

Spark = Soul. Hence why it's such a nebulous concept. It's something they can explore more than we humans can, but I think it's still basically part of that hope to live after death, so there's an element of blind faith involved.

[GoktimusPrime]

While BW was the first to coin the term "Spark" which has since become a virtually standardised reference to Transformers' 'souls', the concept itself originated in G1. In the G1 cartoon it was referred to as the "laser core," and the comics used "life essence." The G1 comics showed that Transformers couldn't simply be constructed. Shockwave had to steal the Creation Matrix from Optimus Prime in order to give life to more Decepticons. The G1 cartoon was inconsistent (as usual :p). At times it seemed easy enough to just build Transformers and they'd be alive, like the Dinobots and the brain-hurting contradicting origins of Megatron and the Constructicons... other times it was shown that Vector Sigma was the source of life for Transformers, and they used it to give life to the Aerialbots and Stunticons. But then at other times it seemed that their "brains" (personality components) were the most vital things for TF life, such as the Combaticons. But then Gears seemed to operate just fine with at least part of his personality component missing. Aaahh... where would the G1 cartoon be without its continuity inconsistencies! :D

"What did you do to Gears, you monster? You turned him... nice!"
- Ironhide, Changing Gears

But essentially the Spark is a Transformer's anima. It's what imbues him/her with life. A brain allows them to think, but not necessarily be alive. Teletraan-1, Zoom-Zoom, BM Vehicons etc. are capable of thoughts (of varying levels) but they aren't actually living entities. They're artificially intelligent, much like droids in Star Wars. A Jedi may risk his/her life to save another living being, but not to save a droid. There's an episode in the Clone Wars when Anakin insists on rescuing Artoo Detoo and Obiwan immediately cautions him about forming material attachments and advises against it. It's only agreed that Artoo needed to be rescued when Anakin confesses that he's never had Artoo's memory wiped, and therefore he carries secret Republic information that they couldn't allow to fall into enemy hands (so thus the missing was really to retrieve the data, rather than to rescue a droid)).

An example of a Cybertronian with a living Spark but with a very primitive mind would be Transmutate. Transmutate suffered significant mental and cognitive impairment because her logic circuits were scrambled beyond repair, giving her childlike immaturity and innocence. The IDW comics also show Sparks being "grown" out of the ground in certain places. These "embryonic" Sparks seem to lack sentience (let alone intelligence), but are portrayed as still being living Sparks.

[Cat]

And of course, the infamous 'Life Spark'.

:D

[BigTransformerTrev]

Remember Rossum's trinity. Enough damage to either the spark or brain (or cog) will kill a Transformer.

I think the spark downloads (or backs up) the brain when it's removed from the body, such as the transfers. Except for the odd mutant spark (ghost) like Starscream, a disembodied spark can't really act on its own. Even the birth of a Transformer (spark into robot, forged or constructed cold) apparently needs manual intervention. So a spark with no brain keeps the essence of a TF but isn't conscious. (I think that's partly how the Garrus jail worked). When the spark is placed back in the body or in a new TF body the memories download. Manual manipulation of the brain could still leave permament personality changes that are copied across.

The brain module is their mind, memories, personality etc. Their spark is the crucial part that makes them more than a machine. It's their irreplaceable core to their being.

That's as good an explaination as any - nicely done Paulbot! I'm happy to go with that

[Paul Agnew]

And of course, the infamous 'Life Spark'.

:D

Which was attempted to be continued in the 'Spark Driver' concept at the end of Beast Wars. Funnily enough, the Japanese Cryotek had the driver, and for anyone with Zoids model kits, their little blue drivers fit in the seats snugly.

[kup]

The IDW comics also show Sparks being "grown" out of the ground in certain places. These "embryonic" Sparks seem to lack sentience (let alone intelligence), but are portrayed as still being living Sparks.

Yeah that adds to the list of questions that need answering. How does that work exactly? So you plant a Transformer seed and a few weeks later a sprout spark comes out of the ground?

[GoktimusPrime]

Seeds of da few-chaaa! :p

[Paulbot]

Yeah that adds to the list of questions that need answering. How does that work exactly? So you plant a Transformer seed and a few weeks later a sprout spark comes out of the ground?

I think the current MTMTE story will address this. So far the "hotspots" seem to be randomly/naturally occurring and only referenced on both moons (because presumably Cybertron's dried up earlier). Transformers (sparks) are children of Cybertron/Primus itself? Maybe?

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Sorry, I figured since it was a 15yr old show no one would be in danger of actually having it spoiled... I'll highlight it black.

No probs. I have seen it and knew about it, but assumed it was some amazing plot shift of excitement in TF Prime, since They have the Vehicon General toy. So I do apologise:o

i think most people know about it, I am just an idiot:p;)

[Hursticon]

Remember Rossum's trinity. Enough damage to either the spark or brain (or cog) will kill a Transformer.

I think the spark downloads (or backs up) the brain when it's removed from the body, such as the transfers. Except for the odd mutant spark (ghost) like Starscream, a disembodied spark can't really act on its own. Even the birth of a Transformer (spark into robot, forged or constructed cold) apparently needs manual intervention. So a spark with no brain keeps the essence of a TF but isn't conscious. (I think that's partly how the Garrus jail worked). When the spark is placed back in the body or in a new TF body the memories download. Manual manipulation of the brain could still leave permament personality changes that are copied across.

The brain module is their mind, memories, personality etc. Their spark is the crucial part that makes them more than a machine. It's their irreplaceable core to their being.

This description speaks to my thoughts with far better dexterity than I could verbally articulate at the moment :p; I'd love to hear Verno's input too, but I think Paulbot's interpretation works extremely well when you consider how a "Shell Program" effects both the Spark & Brain of a Cybertronian. ;):cool:

[kup]

Remember Rossum's trinity. Enough damage to either the spark or brain (or cog) will kill a Transformer.

I think the spark downloads (or backs up) the brain when it's removed from the body, such as the transfers. Except for the odd mutant spark (ghost) like Starscream, a disembodied spark can't really act on its own. Even the birth of a Transformer (spark into robot, forged or constructed cold) apparently needs manual intervention. So a spark with no brain keeps the essence of a TF but isn't conscious. (I think that's partly how the Garrus jail worked). When the spark is placed back in the body or in a new TF body the memories download. Manual manipulation of the brain could still leave permament personality changes that are copied across.

The brain module is their mind, memories, personality etc. Their spark is the crucial part that makes them more than a machine. It's their irreplaceable core to their being.

Your theory also makes a whole lot of sense when it comes to the G1 Headmaster process (which I guess can be applied to IDW too).

If the head is removed, the spark will choose to 'upload' to the human/nebulan component instead of the brain module causing the 'meld' of personality we see as the end result.

[GoktimusPrime]

This description speaks to my thoughts with far better dexterity than I could verbally articulate at the moment :p; I'd love to hear Verno's input too, but I think Paulbot's interpretation works extremely well when you consider how a "Shell Program" effects both the Spark & Brain of a Cybertronian. ;):cool:
Hhmmm... I think Sparks do seem to hold consciousness and memories. We saw this happening a few times in Beast Machines. The relationship between shell programs and Sparks is interesting. We know that shell programs are attached to the Spark and somehow "infect" them, and attempting to remove a shell program can be extremely hazardous as it could destroy the Spark (re: Blackarachnia), unless you're a leet haxxor like Rattrap (re: Tankor/Rhinox) or just happen to have a pool of organic Cybertronian goo at your disposal. ;)

[Verno]

Wow, how have I missed this in-depth discussion up until now?! I love me some TF theorising.

I'm not well-versed in citing Canon from the varying sources we have, but all my reading of articles on the TFWiki over the years has allowed me to form something of a rough guide for my own take on the issue.

I could try and explain it all and link it all together but it might be better if I simply provide links to my own Wiki-esk pages for the Transversal Continuity. They're quite brief, so have no fear.

Sparks (http://tf-tvc.deviantart.com/art/Sparks-317431380?q=gallery%3Atf-tvc%2F38391440&qo=48) - The physical embodiment of a shard of Primus himself which gives life to a Cybertronian.

Core Consciousness (http://tf-tvc.deviantart.com/art/Core-Consciousness-317427963?q=gallery%3Atf-tvc%2F38391440&qo=51) - Akin to the Brain Module postulated in the IDW-verse.

Laser Core (http://tf-tvc.deviantart.com/art/Lasercore-317423652?q=gallery%3Atf-tvc%2F38391440&qo=54) - The linkage mechanism between Spark and Core Consciousness, but also acts as a protective housing for the Spark.

Shell Program (http://tf-tvc.deviantart.com/art/Shell-Program-317426942?q=gallery%3Atf-tvc%2F38391440&qo=52) - An over-ride of a Transformers Core Consciousness.

Basically, the relationship between Spark and Core Consciousness (Brain Module) is key to a Transformers' existence.

The relationship between the two nurtures a Transformers' personality in the early years after their creation, as a Spark that has just arrived from the Allspark is essentially blank.

The Core Consciousness would hold some basic programming (things like faction, a set of skills etc) much like we Humans have basic programming/instincts when we are born -- instincts like fight or flight that have been driven into our very DNA since even before our ancestors crawled out of the water and onto land all those millions of years ago.

The one thing we mustn't forget about a Spark is that it is a piece of Primus. Primus sent 13 shards of his essence forth and created The 13 to fight Unicron. After that battle, he populated Cybertron with more of these shards, Sparks, in order for them to grow as individuals and in time go forth into the universe and explore (on Primus' behalf) and upon their passing, their Sparks would return to the Allspark and bring with them all they had learned during their lives.

This means that the purpose of a Spark is two-fold: Not only to give sentience to a Transformer, but for Primus to experience the Physical plane of existence.

I think I'm getting a little off-track here...

Again, these are only my take on the issues involved and I've hardly done justice to the concepts floating around in my head. Maybe I should give it another looking at later when I'm not running out the door to go to work :p

[Verno]

OK, right, let's have another look at this.

Yes, the role of Spark and Brain Module do seem to cross paths on what they are actually for, but I believe this is by design.

When a Spark first leaves the Allspark and comes into this reality, it is -- for all intents and purposes -- blank, without any memory or scope to form an individual personality.

The Spark enters a body and integrates with the Laser Core, thus forming its first link to the Brain Module (Core Consciousness).

The Brain Module has within it basic programming, which guides the young Transformer in their early years. The Transformer grows as it experiences the world, and these memories and experiences and interpreted and stored by the Core Consciousness (forming individuality and personality) and are also absorbed by the Spark.

When the Transformer dies, all memories and experiences are already in the Spark, which travels back to the Allspark and adds to the combined knowledge of a billion Transformers that have come before.

The Transformer's body could then be thought of as a hard-drive. If you hooked their body up to a machine, you could browse their Brain Module for information.

I think this is closer to what I'm trying to say, but still haven't put it forward eloquently enough.

[Hursticon]

Everything you've come up with works completely soundly to me Verno; the concept/discussion of Cybertronian biology is very intriguing indeed :cool:, although I don't quite think I'm sold on TF: Prime's Cyber-Nucleic Acid yet. :o:rolleyes:

[Geminii]

I'd add that in order to clear up any physical/metaphorical inconsistencies with the spark, it could be stated to be a self-sustaining artificial multidimensional knot in spacetime, able to store a significant amount of Cybertronian ego-data (datatrax). They'd have the following characteristics:

- Option to be multidimensionally linked to the Allspark. Sparks created by Vector Sigma and the Oracle, as well as those pulled back from the Allspark, and most of those created by Primus have this link. However, the link is not usually fully open and active, due to it having a priority over merely material input - a spark with a fully open Allspark link, unless it had greater than normal processing capability or bolt-on extensions, would be effectively blind to the real world. Allspark links can be occasionally opened briefly (either partially or fully) by those tuned to them and extremely familiar with their own mind's functioning. They are also often opened when a spark's housing is destroyed and a replacement is not likely. In this circumstance, they can be used to back up a spark's datatrax and the spark can then unravel. They can also be opened in order to search for information in the Allspark, but the link is two-way, and not all corners of the Allspark are friendly...

- Option to be linked directly to Primus. This is a rarer link, and usually only found in sparks created directly by Primus himself. Primus can also forge a link to an existing unlinked spark.

- Option to be linked directly to Unicron. This is generally only found in Unicronians. Unicron links are not usually added to sparks with an existing Allspark or Primus link, due to the potential for cross-link hacking, but an existing spark may have its links severed and a single Unicron link added in its place.

- Ability to be held and shielded by a laser core. A laser core would provide a physical, field-effect, and dimensional shelter for a spark, and could sustain it near-indefinitely, although it does not itself provide environmental data.

- Instead of a physical laser core, a subspace wrapper with one or more portals can be used to provide a similar "home" for the spark, allowing it to link to and receive condensed feedback from multiple physical brain modules in realspace. While the brain modules run local copies of the datatrax, the spark assimilates experiences from all of them, combines them, and updates the brain modules via the GT portals. A weakness of this system is that although the spark is protected from realspace attacks, it is actually more vulnerable to subspace interference due to the prototypical nature of the GT wrapper - although a subspace attacker would need to be able to locate or stumble across its multidimensional location first.

- Ability to link to a brain module. The brain module would download a copy of the spark's datatrax, run it internally, provide filters and translation modules such as body-interpretation, environmental translation, and conceptual mapping, as well as both short-term and long-term memory. The resulting filtered and combined network weightings would be fed back to the spark, resulting in an accumulation of extracted data interpretable more as wisdom than raw sensor data. Brain modules can be affected by shell programs.

- More advanced sparks, or simply those with more capacity or more efficient storage mechanisms, would be able to retain and recall more detail after being separated from a brain module. They might retain specific memories or data, or even (in extreme circumstances) cognitive and interactive functions (including anomalous physical functions such as speech, directed movement, and being able to affect nearby matter). Such additional complexity, though, may inhibit compatibility with self-preservation functions usually carried out by the brain module, leading to behaviours such as extreme risk-taking, willingness to endure massive physical damage, appearing to have a death-wish, and/or repeated self-sacrifice. Individuals with this incompatibility are likely to have a history of "miraculous" recoveries from apparently-fatal damage, returning after having been declared dead, and an increased incidence of spark-transfer into new bodyshells. Such sparks, when extinguished, are also more likely to retain coherence, individuality, and personality quirks when their datatrax are encountered in the Allspark.

[drahsrebu]

My brain module hurts after that Geminii.:p

[Hursticon]

My brain module hurts after that Geminii.:p

Hehe, extremely meticulous and well thought out huh? - It's quite stunning too in how it unifies quite a few theories, I very much like the last paragraph's description of Starscream's "mutated" spark. :cool:

Bloody-well done Geminii, an awesomely thought provoking read indeed. ;):)

[GoktimusPrime]

- More advanced sparks, or simply those with more capacity or more efficient storage mechanisms, would be able to retain and recall more detail after being separated from a brain module. They might retain specific memories or data, or even (in extreme circumstances) cognitive and interactive functions (including anomalous physical functions such as speech, directed movement, and being able to affect nearby matter). Such additional complexity, though, may inhibit compatibility with self-preservation functions usually carried out by the brain module, leading to behaviours such as extreme risk-taking, willingness to endure massive physical damage, appearing to have a death-wish, and/or repeated self-sacrifice. Individuals with this incompatibility are likely to have a history of "miraculous" recoveries from apparently-fatal damage, returning after having been declared dead, and an increased incidence of spark-transfer into new bodyshells. Such sparks, when extinguished, are also more likely to retain coherence, individuality, and personality quirks when their datatrax are encountered in the Allspark.
i.e. Because Hasbro doesn't want any more angry letters from parents. ;)

[Geminii]

i.e. Because Hasbro doesn't want any more angry letters from parents. ;)

And, when it comes to dramatic deaths or ongoing adventures of popular characters, wants to have its cake and eat it too. :)

[Geminii]

Hehe, extremely meticulous and well thought out huh?

Made up on the spot, mostly! (Probably influenced by a decade or more of the same topic being repeatedly beaten to death on the internet, though.) Gather and file the serial numbers off enough of the more collaborative arguments which get put through the meat grinder, and we get a mess I can reassemble into something resembling a coherent narrative.

Besides, it's pretty much how my brain works with such things. I did government and tech work for over fifteen years, and a lot of that is listening to (and testing for) a bunch of symptoms or situations, and then figuring out what single cause would fit the data. The result is that I can do much the same thing with random picks of established tropes, like the way that dozens of different writers have approached the issue of death and afterlife as it relates to Transformers. I just find the smallest intersection point that appears to cover everything (or nearly everything).

Plus I like subspace. The wiki entry on GT systems gave me a foot in the door there, and tossing in some higher-dimensional chaos math (because it's fun) let me link most of the rest of everything.


Interesting side-effect: non-mutant sparks would need to be sustained by their bodies or the Allspark (or via an Allspark connection) in order to maintain sentience - outside their bodies, or disconnected from an energy source, they'd have to cannibalize their own negative entropy in order to speak, move, or even think. Doing so would simplify and weaken the strange attractor paths which constituted their spark. However, if they stopped doing this, they'd freeze. Meaning that sparks in overly damaged bodies have the choice of going into a kind of "stasis lock", or continuing to operate at the cost of spark-destruction. A spark may be physically present after this destruction (if it hasn't completely unraveled), but parts or all of the personality it held will be gone, burnt for entropic fuel.

And that, in turn, makes me start wondering about the properties of Energon itself - it strikes me that perhaps it's not so much a physical substance as any one of a number of items capable of storing raw negative entropy, much as it's possible to store electricity in batteries made of many different materials. This theory would itself have some interesting side effects, such as Energon not being limited to one form or type, and planets with living beings and civilizations being more 'nutritious' for a planet-eater than raw asteroids. It might also explain why Energon in some forms glows where it touches reality, as raw possibility is converted to Cherenkov-Pauli emissions at the unstable interface. Only the surface of an Energon product would glow, it would only start glowing when exposed, and it'd be possible to make types of Energon which soaked up power from (ie performed an entropy exchange with) the environment.