TF Beast Hunters episode 11 - Persuasion

[SMHFConvoy]

Picking up where, Minus One left off. A really solid episode - you might want rewatch the last episode of season two because what happens in this episode makes perfect sense in one character's story arc - although it's mostly about getting us to the series conclusion by getting characters into place, human and cybertronian.

Will Beast Hunters lead us into a rebooted, Beast Wars or into Transtech?

[Bidoofdude]

This episode was interesting. Didn't really get anywhere besides Ratchet making decisions but it was entertaining enough. :cool:

[MayzaPrime]

This episode was interesting. Didn't really get anywhere besides Ratchet making decisions but it was entertaining enough. :cool:

I felt the same way about the episode... I think that this is one of the change of allegiance that has been hinted at. While Ratchet will never become a Decepticon, he has made no secret about how he feels about Optimus destroying the Omega Lock and will do what he thinks is best for Cybertron even if that means working with Megatron.

[SMHFConvoy]

This episode was interesting. Didn't really get anywhere besides Ratchet making decisions but it was entertaining enough. :cool:

I agree, really interesting episode but not a lot going on, but I think the payoff will be in the next episode, 'synthesis.'

It's a shame this show gets interesting when it's ending. Mind you it makes me wonder what the deal is the scaled up BH Legion figures then.

[GoktimusPrime]

I liked this episode. The action was less physical but more emotional -- rather than fighting with fists, Megatron attacked Ratchet's heart; and won. And it's not about Ratchet betraying the Autobots either. Ratchet is motivated by what he believes is best for Cybertron; the greater good. We know that he always questioned Optimus Prime's decision to destroy the Omega Lock and he spun into despair afterwards (before Raf managed to snap him out of it). Ratchet made the decision to help Megatron only because he believes that it is in the best interest of Cybertron and its people, it grieves him to know that Megatron would profit from it too. But as Megatron put it, at least the Autobots and Decepticons would have a world worth fighting over. Ratchet's plan is to help Megatron rebuild Cybertron, then he can only hope that the other Autobots can somehow defeat Megatron after that (because he knows that Megatron will terminate him after his work is done).

I quite like how Megatron was able to attack Ratchet with the truth. Very different from the use of lies and deception that he did with Orion Pax, here Megatron's just really open and honest about his intentions. It makes Megatron feel like a far more menacing threat and also makes Ratchet feel more impotent. With Orion Pax, we knew that once he discovered the truth, then Megatron's plans for him would fall apart... but there isn't that hope here because Megatron's being openly transparent with Ratchet.

It's like...
"But you'll rebuild Cybertron just to conquer and enslave it again."
"Yep."
"And you're gonna kill me after I've helped you."
"You betcha."
DAMN!!! :D

I do like how this was a primarily character-driven story. I can understand that a story more based on emotion rather than action might seem dull to some (especially younger audiences), but there this episode did contain some action and also importantly offering hope (seeing the Autobots survive the attempted destruction of their new base as well as their plan to rescue Ratchet). It's not like say Season 1 of Beast Machines which was mostly just endless darkness and despair, and most of the action was running away from Vehicons. :rolleyes:

We did get action at the beginning with the conclusion of the fight between Predaking and the Autobots (although the choreography could've been a lot better, but I suppose the average animator doesn't know how proper fights should look like (this is something that Michael Bay does a lot better because they use stunt performers in motion capture suits)). And there was also the attack on the Autobots' new base. But it's weird how the Air Force pilots all look like Army soldiers, wearing the typical green uniforms and helmets, no flight suits or fighter pilot helmets! How do they breathe at high altitude?? I guess it's not as weird as seeing Fowler fly around in a suit and tie all the time, but still... everyone in the armed forces in this show are like superhumanly tank! :eek: I also like how the episode hinted at Fowler and June Darby's relationship flourishing in the background and how they're both considering persuading Jack to yrma eht nioj. ;) It's also weird how the human fighters just hovered there like sitting ducks and fired at the incoming Deceps. Also... why didn't Prime take flight and join them?? Even though the operation was a ruse, he's still risking only human lives to do it? Surely the Autobots could've gotten involved - Optimus Prime could've taken flight and the others fired surface-to-air artillery. Make it convincing! Unless the idea was to make the Decepticons believe that the Autobots all perished in the explosion, but still... doesn't it strike Starscream as a bit strange that all the humans scrambled into action, but the Autobots didn't? Why didn't they finish off the humans then land to search for remains? (they did so after destroying the first Autobot base after all). But then again, the last operation was directly supervised by Megatron, whereas this time he left it to Starscream who may have been too arrogant to second think it or even bother with a post-battle inspection. Starscream's like Doctor Evil, just walk away confident that your enemies are dead... he needs the equivalent of Scott Evil to just roll his eyes and mutter, "Idiot." :p :rolleyes:

[SMHFConvoy]

Like hand drawn animation, CG is time consuming and labour intensive, so like with ultra magnus the animators used what they had on hand for the pilots but the air force hovering there? That was weird.

Just remember, money and time is what separates TV production from film production.

[GoktimusPrime]

yeah I know, but it still looks weird! ;) Explains why all the MECH grunts wear gimp suits -- justifies making them all look the same. :) I noticed that all the soldiers are basically the same soldier we see in previous episodes too (Clone Wars'd!). They probably should've stuck a visor on the helmet instead of allowing the face to be exposed. Although in this episode I noticed that they intentionally avoided showing any of their faces. Heh... kinda reminds me of old school cel animated cartoons where all the background mooks are drawn the same (as wonderfully parodied in "Gekiganger 3 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHQMoeWL3pU)" (@ 0:50 ;)) :D).

[i_amtrunks]

I felt this episode lagged and dragged. Ratchet is my favourite character on this show because he is a cookie cut out good guy. We all knew his decision before the options were given. Why spend so long showing off all the unrelated Decepticon tech to convince him? I did like the transparency in his dealings with Megatron and he fact he didnt try and talk his way into it (saying to himself he'll survive, escape etc), that he knows he is doing this then dying.

Animation was below par. Glad this show is nearly over and we can move onto a show with a better animation style rather than this empty world stuff.

So the next two episodes are Ratchet fixing synth-en and a big battle before the movie sees the final defeat of Megatron and the Decpeticons. A big task seeing what he has survived so far.

[liegeprime]

it was funny seeing UM and Shocky fight. The battle of the one fisted bots heheheh:D. Heh, Also glad to see they couldn't shy away from making Wheeljack a tech geek still, just like the old G1 guy was. :p

You know after all this episodes, I now find the addition of Beast Hunters to the main title unnecessary. After all, the only Beast weve seen additional is Predaking.... the predacon revival at best isn't the main plot but more of just a story arc divided into episodes. But seeing that the direction of the story now is still a continuation of what has been a long arching story - restoration of a fallen Cybertron, well... it's just unnecessary. I guess it's to promote the toys ( isn't all this always anyways hahaha:p) but yeah Im glad in a way that the storyline isn't constricted by the Hasbro powers that be in being just such - a toy promotion show :):)

[lancalot]

love the way Megatron is portray in this episode ...a true leader ...how he got alot going on and more important things to worry about then how to just kill the autobots ...where as the autobot go nothing to do but just wait around for the decepticon to show up??....... And i didn't know how big he was until you see him next to a tiny ratchet ...

[Gasaraki]

For me, it's been a long time since an episode hit the spot as much as this one... very satisfying storytelling and CHARACTER portrayals! I do agree it's still somewhat slow at times, but it does feel like it's building nicely toward the endgame.

Stuff I liked:
- A couple of memorable lines:
--- Megatron saying 'dearest Ratchet', oooh that made my hair stand :P
--- '... stuck in Knockout's trunk WITH YOUR MOM!' ... what tha!??
- I gotta get my hands on Raf's computer... he's rigged it to interface with Cybertronian tech! Plus got the right font(s) to go with it! Man!
- That music when Ratchet was shown the Nemesis' bridge really sounded like it came straight from Star Wars!
- Yep, also loved the way Megatron just deals out the truth and doesn't bother to hide any motive, seeing he's already predicted Ratchet's response.
- The suggestion of a follow-up series with Fowler's comment to Jack about his future - Agent Darby! The numerous toy characters also support this hint I think.


Why didn't they finish off the humans then land to search for remains? (they did so after destroying the first Autobot base after all). But then again, the last operation was directly supervised by Megatron, whereas this time he left it to Starscream who may have been too arrogant to second think it or even bother with a post-battle inspection. Starscream's like Doctor Evil, just walk away confident that your enemies are dead... he needs the equivalent of Scott Evil to just roll his eyes and mutter, "Idiot." :p :rolleyes:

Yes, and what is it with identifying the building based on the 'E'!?!? There were 5 hangers there, and the configuration itself should've indicated something was off, not to mention Soundwave and Laserbeak had come from there... you'd think that hyper-advanced robotic beings would have something akin to GPS to confirm! This was lazy story boarding... Fowler goes out of the way to point that that the 'cons now know the location of the base... so how should they solve the problem? Paint out the E!! Wow, this was pathetic... must've been too costly to move (both for the Autobots/humans as well as the producers!).


love the way Megatron is portray in this episode ...a true leader ...how he got alot going on and more important things to worry about then how to just kill the autobots ...where as the autobot go nothing to do but just wait around for the decepticon to show up??....... And i didn't know how big he was until you see him next to a tiny ratchet ...

Definitely the best part of the episode for me as well... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.

[BigTransformerTrev]

love the way Megatron is portray in this episode ...a true leader ...how he got alot going on and more important things to worry about then how to just kill the autobots ...where as the autobot go nothing to do but just wait around for the decepticon to show up??....... And i didn't know how big he was until you see him next to a tiny ratchet ...


... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.

It's just like the 'Spotlight: Megatron" that came out a few months ago. It shows WHY this guy is the leader of an intergalactic army, rather than simply because he is the toughest. Meg's definetly the highlight for me in this episode.

This episode also confirmed for me what I said in my brief comment in the review thread for the previous episode - looks like a denumont on Cybertron is about to be upon us (I hope!).

[GoktimusPrime]

I felt this episode lagged and dragged. Ratchet is my favourite character on this show because he is a cookie cut out good guy. We all knew his decision before the options were given. Why spend so long showing off all the unrelated Decepticon tech to convince him?
Yeah, liegeprime and I were discussing this earlier today, and one thing he said that I find myself agreeing with is that the stories of this episode and the last one could've been combined into a single episode.


it was funny seeing UM and Shocky fight. The battle of the one fisted bots heheheh:D.
They should've just settled things with an arm wrestle. :p


Heh, Also glad to see they couldn't shy away from making Wheeljack a tech geek still, just like the old G1 guy was. :p
Yes, that was a pleasant surprise. :) It's also fairly in-character with his previous portrayals too instead of something that just seems completely out of the blue (like say, Animated Bulkhead being a space bridge genius!). We previously heard Wheeljack say that he modified Ultra Magnus' ship to improve its vector thrust, and we know that he was able to repair his own ship. He's not quite the "mad scientist" techno geek that G1 Wheeljack was... he's more like a "Han Solo" style mechanic. I could easily imagine him saying, "I've made a lot of special modifications myself" when referring to his old ship. ;)


Yes, and what is it with identifying the building based on the 'E'!?!? There were 5 hangers there, and the configuration itself should've indicated something was off, not to mention Soundwave and Laserbeak had come from there... you'd think that hyper-advanced robotic beings would have something akin to GPS to confirm! This was lazy story boarding... Fowler goes out of the way to point that that the 'cons now know the location of the base... so how should they solve the problem? Paint out the E!! Wow, this was pathetic... must've been too costly to move (both for the Autobots/humans as well as the producers!).
Heh, it reminds me of what G1 writer David Wise refers to as the "Balonium Factor" which was often engaged in G1.
e.g.
+ camouflage paint that allowed 5 Autobots to look like Stunticons even though their body shapes were entirely different
+ Autobot Pretenders able to fool the Decepticons into thinking that they were actual humans, despite being 15 metres tall! :eek:
...et al.


Definitely the best part of the episode for me as well... this is the vintage Megatron that I love and is all too often missing (and I mean in multiple continuities here). Here he is the thinking intelligent Megatron, who is also seductively charismatic. And best of all, morally complex... it wasn't simply the evil want-to-destroy-all bad guy.
...G1 Megatron was pretty much the simple evil want-to-destroy/conquer it all bad guy. :/

Beast Wars Megatron was the more sophisticated villain, but in a different way from TFP Megatron in this ep. BW Megs was basically about divide and conquer -- he set his allies and enemies up against each other; similar to how the TFP Decepticons set up Predaking against the Autobots so that they would benefit no matter who won. Only that BW Megs was much more subtle about.

I find that this is a fairly unique aspect for TFP Megatron as I really can't think of any other Decepticon or Predacon leader who uses open honesty as his weapon of choice. TFP Megatron's M.O. regarding his enemies are either:
1/ If enemy is of no use, exterminate
2/ If enemy is of use, elicit compliance
e.g.
+ When battling Unicron Megatron proposed an alliance. Being a most logical suggestion, Optimus Prime grudgingly agreed.
+ When Optimus Prime reverted to being Orion Pax, Megatron used deception to maintain Orion's state of reversion and exploited his skills as an archivist.
+ Megatron arranged to have the children abducted and brought to Cybertron in order to force the Autobots to surrender their Relics.
+ Was openly honest with Ratchet to persuade him to work for him.
TFP Megatron's good at getting his enemies to give him what he wants and not just with the plain, "Do it or I'll kill you!" threat. It's more like, "Do it because you know it makes sense or have no other choice!" :cool:

But I really do like how this episode presented Ratchet with one hell of an ethical dilemma ... "can the ends justify the means?" -- as an altruist, Optimus Prime would never believe that the ends can justify the means. That's why he destroyed the Omega Lock. But as a Utilitarian, Megatron (and the Decepticons) certainly do believe that the ends justify the means; although Utilitarianism also believes that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. TFP doesn't seem to affirm if the Cybertronian population outnumbers that of humans (whereas Sentinel Prime in Dark of the Moon suggests that it does); and/or because the Decepticons view Cybertronians as a higher/superior form of life and therefore logically lower forms of life on Earth are expendable to save their own species/world. As "Philosophy and the Transformers" points out, if humans were to hypothetically discover a remote island inhabited by intelligent ants, and say if there was a way to benefit or save humanity that required harming or destroying the ants' backward civilisation -- we'd probably kill the ants.

[Gasaraki]

...G1 Megatron was pretty much the simple evil want-to-destroy/conquer it all bad guy. :/

Beast Wars Megatron was the more sophisticated villain, but in a different way from TFP Megatron in this ep. BW Megs was basically about divide and conquer -- he set his allies and enemies up against each other; similar to how the TFP Decepticons set up Predaking against the Autobots so that they would benefit no matter who won. Only that BW Megs was much more subtle about.

...

+ Megatron arranged to have the children abducted and brought to Cybertron in order to force the Autobots to surrender their Relics.

Yeah that's right, G1 Megatron was mostly not quite the type of character I respect... looking back at it several times over the years, it seems like he's really quite an idiot at times. Or he's not really really trying to beat the Autobots... perhaps because he knows deep down he won't know what to do with himself if OP is not there to fight :rolleyes: So for me it comes down to 2 possibilities for G1 Megs - idiot or unmotivated... and since he's supposed to have Intelligence 10, it's the latter! There are some flashes of cunning brilliance now and then, as well as not so simple motivations, e.g. Megatron's Master Plan.

The 'vintages' of Megatron I particularly love are ones such as BW Megs (memory very hazy here, but that's what I remember) and more recent IDW Megs (e.g. during Chaos event). This is how, it would seem, Megatron was meant to be, and the only way he should be able to stay the leader over millions of years.

The utilitarian nature of the Decepticon way is very apparent, and this at least comes through in multiple continuities, not that it's a very hard concept to stick to for writers. I think the children thing was Starscream's initiative (but Megs had to approve of course)... I actually liked that moment as it showed Starscream at his best (and doesn't leave out the possibility of further plotting), but unfortunately only lasted that episode!!


...As "Philosophy and the Transformers" points out, if humans were to hypothetically discover a remote island inhabited by intelligent ants, and say if there was a way to benefit or save humanity that required harming or destroying the ants' backward civilisation -- we'd probably kill the ants.

That's quite a valid analogy... to save humanity, I'd have to agree. To benefit humanity?? I think we'd be surprised by the Protect the Sentient Ants lobby! :)

[GoktimusPrime]

#OccupyAntHill. :p

IMHO Beast Machines Megatron was the best embodiment of G1 Megatron's motto "peace through tyranny." I found he was actually a really interesting character in his own right -- the problem was that he was also an entirely different character from Beast Wars Megatron, even though he wasn't meant to be. :rolleyes: But if we disregard Beast Wars, BM Megatron is a fairly interesting character IMO.

BM Megatron never saw himself as a villain (unlike BW Megs who revelled in it), but as Cybertron's salvation. He saw that Cybertron was plagued with endless millenia of conflict because people had differing opinions and independent free will. By removing free will and individuality, he would thus remove disagreeing opinions, and in doing so also remove the source of conflict and thus establish peace. Of course this peace came at the cost of liberty, replacing it with an absolute brutal singular dictatorship; but it's exactly what G1 Megatron claimed to believe in, "peace through tyranny."

[Gasaraki]

BM Megatron never saw himself as a villain (unlike BW Megs who revelled in it), but as Cybertron's salvation. He saw that Cybertron was plagued with endless millenia of conflict because people had differing opinions and independent free will. By removing free will and individuality, he would thus remove disagreeing opinions, and in doing so also remove the source of conflict and thus establish peace. Of course this peace came at the cost of liberty, replacing it with an absolute brutal singular dictatorship; but it's exactly what G1 Megatron claimed to believe in, "peace through tyranny."

I'm going to try to catch Beast Machines someday... I think the most interesting antagonists are often the ones who truly cannot see themselves as evil, but have some motive which they deem to be good. Frequently, the complexity then arrives at how such motives/ends are achieved, cf. Magneto.

This description of BM Megatron comes very close to Palpatine I think. One of the few moments in the new trilogy that gave me a spine-tingle was when he said 'At last, the Sith will rule the galaxy... and we shall have peace!'. It was like, whoa, this guy really thinks, in some ways, he's the good guy! Villains like this have it so screwed up in there it becomes fascinating!