PDA

View Full Version : The Soapbox IV: Top 10 Characters of All Time



STL
22nd July 2008, 05:27 PM
This topic’s one of those bandied around forums from time to time. What often happens though is the discussion nosedives into personal preferences and meaningless banter. So what this column hopes to do is provide a reasoned analysis of who the top 10 Transformers characters of all time are.

The focus is on characters as opposed to toys. Toys change and there are and will continue to be countess iterations of many Transformers characters. That’s why we’re looking at the characters that go to the core of the franchise. Characters that will always be relevant and identifiable.

So, who are they? Come on in and find out.

1.) Optimus Prime


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/98/tftmdvd0374yo5.jpghttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6306/tftmdvd0054fh4.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tftmdvd0054fh4.jpg)http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/4781/tftmdvd0397sr3.jpg

This one was a no-brainer. I do not think anyone could possibly have suggested otherwise. Optimus Prime is the cornerstone of the Transformers. There is no character who comes even close to Prime in terms of their relevance to the franchise. Like it or not, through Beast Wars to Animated, no line has never existed without an Optimus Prime. Yes, some may argue that Optimus Primal is not Optimus Prime, and they’d be technically right, but we all know the aesthetic and the persona was to channel Prime himself. In form or not, Beast Wars Primal for all intents and purposes is just another Optimus Prime.

So, that said, why is Prime held in such lofty regard? TFTM. Sure, in terms of the G1 cartoon there was no one more relevant than Prime but TFTM turned him into a tragic figure. The noble and courageous leader who loses his life fighting for his fellow Autobots.. His unprecedented death sent many children into tears but it also catapulted his greatness into Transformers folklore. It was a shadow that the G1 cartoon never escaped until they brought him back to life. The Japanese Headmasters got rid of him not long after but even they could not escape the one undeniable fact: Transformers needs Optimus Prime.

Optimus’ name is one that is immediately identifiable with the franchise. He is and will always be a figure of unity. That’s what makes him the face of the Transformers and his spot will never be doubted.

2.) Megatron


http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4413/tftmdvd0097vh4.jpg (http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tftmdvd0097vh4.jpg) http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/7207/tftmdvd0399bt8.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tftmdvd0399bt8.jpg) http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/9665/megatron1wj2.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=megatron1wj2.jpg)


This was somewhat difficult initially but it made more sense as the list started to gather shape. Megatron is the number two Transformer of all time because he is the arch-nemesis of Optimus Prime. There has not been a line in my memory without a Megatron. Perhaps in the Japanese ones where I am not as well-versed but from the Western point of view, when you say Optimus Prime, you immediately think of Megatron. And that ultimately is why he occupies the number two spot. If there is an Optimus, there has to be a Megatron. Period.

Does that make Megatron a lesser character in his own right? No. He is the unrivaled nemesis of Optimus Prime because he is the leader of the Decepticons. He is the embodiment of evil in the war waged between the Autobots and the Decepticons. He personifies the cause, he gives them relevance, he gives them teeth. No other Decepticon leader can lay a claim to that. Galvatron doesn’t even come close. Before Galvatron even existed, Megatron had cemented his role as not only Prime’s opposite number but the one ‘bot who all the other Decepticons would bow unconditionally to. This has continued to be the case throughout all the lines since G1 and it’s not going to change anytime soon.

3.) Bumblebee


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/5928/bbje1.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bbje1.jpg)

This is where we hit more murky territory. Bumblebee claims 3rd spot despite the fact that he is hardly a favourite amongst the fandom. Heck, he wouldn’t ever register in my top 100, let alone my top 10. And I’m sure many others would agree with that assertion. So why is that? Why is it that he lays claim to the 3rd spot? Quite simply: he’s relevant and identifiable. Even before TFM, he was a character that everyone remembered as the Transformer who was supposed to connect with humans, the one that we were supposed to identify with. Not everyone necessarily liked him though and he slowly faded away as characters like Cheetor and Hot Shot took his place.

What TFM did in 2007 for Bumblebee was astounding. It lifted him from the cesspool of mediocrity and returned him to the highest echelons of Transformers mythos. His portrayal carried an undeniable charm and it’s no secret that he’s a favourite of young and old, male and female. You only had to look at the toy shelves in the months after the movie and up to Christmas to see how quickly he had flown off the shelves. And you’ve got to remember in the mass market, they buy the toys a lot less for its quality and way more for identifiability. And that’s why Bumblebee has soared into the 3rd spot. He is a well-liked character and the movie succeeded where Animated and G1 didn’t. They made him an interesting character that we could identify with.

And like it or not, it’s going to stay that way.

4,) Starscream


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8460/starscreamorigc9.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=starscreamorigc9.jpg)


Again, not an easy choice. Starscream is the would-be Decepticon leader. He’s always there to undermine Megatron’s every move and always dreams but inevitably never succeeds at sequestering authority from his leader. For a long-time now, he is the second Decepticon that comes to mind. Unlike the subservient Soundwave who relies on his eerie voice and creepy silence, Starscream’s whiny, screeching tone in Transformers lore is like a meteor blazing through the evening sky.

You cannot mistake who Starscream is. You cannot mistake his malicious intents and design. Sure, many in G1 argue why Megatron never finished him off. On top of that, many consider him to be an utter coward. But there’s a little affection one feels for his stupidity, His failures draw a bit of sympathy and yet serve also a plot device that makes the Decepticons interesting rather than just an undying unit dedicated to fulfilling the wishes of a Megatron or Galvatron. Again, he was required in the third season of G1 because of that balance that he provides to the Decepticons. Octane just didn’t cut it.

That’s why its understandable why Starscream is one of the most often used characters in new lines. He provides a spark to the Decepticons that allow the writers to make something interesting about them. And you have to admit, Animated has used him well for that purpose.

Even in TFM, the writers could not help but throw in the jarring line from Megatron. “You fail me yet again, Starscream.” The line fits in the movie as Godzilla’s foot would in a size 10 shoe. So why did the writers of the live-action movie see fit to include the line? It’s a reminder of the treachery that exists, the tension between Megatron and his scheming subordinate.

One can only imagine that with the sequel in production, Starscream will only gain a more significant role given we last see him blasting off into outer space. His star will only rise but it’s hard to see him ever eclipsing Bumblebee. Bumblebee is the vehicle writers rely on establishing a human connection. As such, he will always figure much more prominently than ol’ Screamer. That’s not to say, of course, that Screamer is irrelevant. He isn’t. He is the one character that breathes life into the Decepticons giving them texture and depth and his role in the Decepticons is unparalleled.

5.) Soundwave


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8003/dwsoundwavepostermp3.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwsoundwavepostermp3.jpg)


Soundwave sneaks in at number 5. Outside of Starscream he is the next most identifiable Decepticon. His strange manner of speaking and the cassette gimmick forced him to be a memorable part of G1. Apart from Cybertron, it has been a while since Soundwave even featured in predominant TF fiction but the character carries unmistakable qualities that other Transformers do not. His face mold is unique amongst the Decepticons. Sure, there are characters like Six-Shot but they are fan favourites. They lack idenitifability. Soundwave doesn’t.

Soundwave was always loyal and faithful to Megatron. Yet there was always something that made him creepy and edgy. That’s why he stands out. You don’t get that with Cyclonus who is just Galvatron’s loyal lieutenant. You always had that nagging feeling that there was something that was more than meets the eyes with Soundwave. Throw in Ravage and then the likes of Rumble and Frenzy, you have a wonderful offering that Soundwave offers as a character.

All that makes him one of the most identifiable Transformers and that’s why he occupies spot number 5 on the list.

6.) Devastator


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/976/dwdevastatoree0.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dwdevastatoree0.jpg)


This is a case of where it pays to be first. The Constructicons on their own mean very little. In fact, I’d go as far as to say that they’re only relevant because they formed Devastator. Without that, they are really just uninspiring characters. But Devastator as the first amongst the gestalts/combiners, captured the imagination of many a youth. His bright green and purple colour scheme made him easy to recall from the lost vaults of many people’s childhoods.

When TFM’s success started getting the mainstream public talking about possibilities of a sequel, one of the first concepts and names that were bantered around was Devastator. I lost count of the number of times, I’ve heard people refer to those green construction vehicles that transformed into that massive robot. Predaking may be a favourite amongst the fandom but that’s beside the point. He just isn’t recognizable. He lacked the screen time that Devastator had in the first two Seasons and was more of a periphery combiner in an era that featured Abominus and Bruticus.

The other thing about Devastator is his uniqueness at the time. The whole concept of one humungous robot formed from six other smaller figures was just mindblowing. As a child, I have no doubt that for many of us that the combiners were on the top of our want lists. Many of us might even recall struggling to find that one limb or having to trade off another Transformer in order to get the missing combiner limb. That’s how certainly I got my vintage Superion which has amazingly survived the passage of time. And when one thinks about it even more, Devastator has to be one of the best combiners in terms of the transformation. His six pieces aren’t the same as a Defensor or a Predaking which basically rely on one central body component to attach everything else too. And that just adds to his allure as a combiner.

Devastator had a lot of time to himself and, combined with his uniqueness, that cemented his place in TF lore.

7.) Grimlock


http://img501.imageshack.us/img501/4743/grimlockcartoonke3.jpg (http://img501.imageshack.us/my.php?image=grimlockcartoonke3.jpg)


An undeniable fan favourite. If this was a column about fan favourites he’d be ranking much higher. But it isn’t. However, he still makes the top 10 of all time in my opinion. Grimlock is a character that has seen many characterizations. His cartoon appearances were less than flattering on his intelligence. His comic appearances made him a worthy commander with a unique manner of speaking and one to be wary of which gave him texture and depth. I contend that either way, both made him quite memorable. As a kid, you have to have liked Grimlock’s antics. In many ways, he’s what Bulkhead was to Transformers except he was bit more primal.

Grimlock also benefits from the fact that he is unique. He’s a gray, gold and silver Tyrannosaurus Rex. And that’s one of the reasons, on top of his characterization, why Grimlock is an important character to Transformers mythos. Certainly between G1 and Energon, there was hardly even a toy that reflected the character’s G1 self. And no, the Beast Wars toy does not even come close. Yet Grimlock continues today to be one of the most memorable characters. Grimlock therefore has, like Soundwave, had amazing longevity. And that’s in no small part to his unique alt mode, unique colours, and diverse characterizations.

8.) Unicron


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/4782/resized412x442unicron1wq3.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=resized412x442unicron1wq3.jpg)


I don’t think I really need to say too much. Unicron is the definitive Transformer. His size and scale just blow away one’s imagination. The concept of a sentient planet that could transform is just something that sticks with one. Any one who watched Transformers will remember him and that’s courtesy of some epic animation in the Animated Transformer Movie of 1986 (TFTM). I think no one can deny how mind-blowing the entire transformation sequence of Unicron in TFTM was. It just filled you with so much awe that it would stick with you for the rest of your life. And therein lies Unicron’s timelessness.

9.) Blackarachnia


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9938/csblackarachnia3ov2.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=csblackarachnia3ov2.jpg)

If I had doubts about any one character on this list, it would have to be this one. Having only recently finished Beast Wars, and then looking at Beast Machines and now Animated, I think that Blackarachnia sneaks in because of her importance to the franchise. Of the fembots that have ever featured in TF fiction, she is the most nuanced and intriguing character. He inner conflicts and character growth are unparalleled.

I’m not joking when I say that she has more depth than 98% of G1 characters. I love my G1 and she doesn’t even begin to compare to them but her relevance to the TF franchise is unmistakable. Some may say her lay to claim is that she’s female and that that’s unfair. Well, I disagree. It’s not her fault that that is what makes her oddly unique. She is unique and you have to live with that fact.

Blackarachnia featured in Beast Wars, a series that revitalized the franchise, whether many like it or not. Many other characters came and went in the show but she was one of the few Predacons to withstand the test of time rather than blurring into other caricatures. The same can’t be said of her in Animated yet but no one can doubt that she is one of the more interesting Decepticons. Her creepy spider alt mode combined with her abrasive, manipulating and scheming attitude helped defined her character not just in the show but in the mind of all fans and that is why she demands a spot in the top 10.

10.) Hot Shot


http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/6056/arrmadahotshotgi6.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=arrmadahotshotgi6.jpg)http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/9566/hotshot1fek4.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hotshot1fek4.jpg)http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/903/hotshot1ow3.jpg (http://img242.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hotshot1ow3.jpg)


Hot Shot rounds out the 10 and is perhaps the most contentious on the list. Hot Shot slips in b/c he, like Cheetor before him and Bumblebee, serves the function of being that character that children are supposed to identify with. One cannot deny the importance of that and you need look no further than the 25th Anniversary Deluxe remake of the character to appreciate his significance.

Another fact that others may not be aware of, and nor did I myself until I begun researching this topic, was that Hot Shot was supposed to be TFM Bumblebee’s name. If that had happened, I think no one here would deny that instead of Bumblebee’s star rising to its unprecedented heights, we’d be seeing Hot Shot as one of the key icons of the Transformers now. Animated was supposed to see a return to the Hot Shot name but because of Bumblebee’s success, Hasbro made the obvious strategic choice of renaming the character to Bumblebee.

I am certainly appreciative of the fact too that Hot Shot by no means is the exact same character as Bumblebee. They are different but their function one must admit is the same: A character that younger fans can immediately grapple onto.

That said, at this juncture in time, Hot Shot remains in the top 10 by the thinnest of margins. In the years to come, Bumblebee will take his spot and he will slowly flow back into the blur of Transformers History. However, at this point, one cannot deny the impact that he has had.

__________________________________________________ ___________________

While I’m aware that I have passed on many a fan favourite like Hot Rod, Shockwave, Nightbeat, Springer, Prowl etc, my judgement was moved because compared to those that did make the list, those names and characters just are not as immediately identifiable. I concede that Hot Shot is perhaps a weak link but for many younger fans, I believe he still has some time in the top. Characters like Hot Rod, and Shockwave would immediately make my top echelon of favourite characters. That said, you would not mention them in the same breath as a Unicron, Devastator or Soundwave.

Certainly, I concede that outside of the top 4 characters aforementioned, this list is not set in stone. With a potentially box-office shattering blockbuster movie on the way, we can’t be too sure how this list will withstand the currents of time. But perhaps that’s what the beauty of this is. As fans, we hope that forgotten or new characters will spring to prominence and, quite frankly, that’s what excites us.

lcz128
22nd July 2008, 05:40 PM
Cool as usual :D
Mrmm- I would rank Soundwave over Starscream in terms of recognisability though - while starscream may have been bloody recognisable, to the lay-person I'd argue soundwave's kicka$$ voice and the awesome-factor of the tapes would puch him up :)

Hotshot... I just cannot understand. I never watched Micron Legend (refused to watch Armada after discovering that it was the unfinished one anyway - and STILL WANT TO WATCH MICRON LEGEND BUT CAN'T FIND IT ANYWHERE) ; In Superlink(Energon), he'd grown into a senior character and the spot of the 'character-kids-can-identify-with' had arguably been passed on to Roadbuster(Ironhide I think) with his partner Kicker.

I do love the list you've built and the analysis, but these are just my arguments :D

kup
22nd July 2008, 05:48 PM
No offense, but the likes of Hot Shot should not be in a list like that. He sucks bad.

Robzy
22nd July 2008, 06:10 PM
Well done again STL!

I actually agree with lcz128... I think Soundwave is more "famous" than Starscream. Everyone I know seems to remember that "Tape guy" who had the little cassettes!

Overall, I think you're Top 5 was right! As for the other 5... Grimlock, Unicron, Devastator... IMO, these could all be replaced by Shockwave, Jazz, Ironhide, Insecticons, Casseticons, etc... It's really hard to pick 10 "important" characters! So, I think you did a great job at narrowing them down! :)

Lord_Zed
22nd July 2008, 06:44 PM
Well done, I agree with everyone on the list bar Hotshot. I don't know any non fans who like Armada etc. Nor have I seen a kid who can pick Hotshot from a crowd.

As for the rest of the list I think its pretty much what I'd say only a lot of the postions are interchangable. Starscream, Soundwave are both eligble for spot 4. likewise Grimlock and Devestator could swap spots with no problem either, but thats just nitpicking.

I think you have pretty much nailed it as far as G1 characters go, ask a non fan about transfromers and they'll often say how cool Optimus Prime and Megatron was, They'll probably remember the Volkswagon one even more so thanks to the movie, and maybe even Starscream.

Soundwave, Devestator and Grimlock are all well known becuase so many people loved the ideas behind them when they were kids. I'm not talking about thier personality (or lack of in the case of toon soundwave) or potrayal in the show or comic I just mean the idea or robots who merge together, or have little robots pop out of them, or are dinosaurs were all absolutely mezmorising to kids. I recently gave all my old transformers videos, and lent some of my old storybooks to a work friends 6 year old son. And aparently the ones he was most intrested in were the green ones who combine, and the tapedeck.

So well done STL I thought I'd find something to argue about on a list like this, but not this time. Although I'm not sure about Hot Shot more research or surveys needed there.

Pulse
22nd July 2008, 06:45 PM
I think you've nailed the top 8 (although some may re-arrange the order) but Blackarachnia & Hot Shot? I don't think that many people are gonna agree with those 2...

TheDirtyDigger
22nd July 2008, 07:10 PM
Arcee over BA anyday! I like my girlies pink!

Paulbot
22nd July 2008, 07:17 PM
The focus is on characters as opposed to toys. Toys change and there are and will continue to be countess iterations of many Transformers characters. That’s why we’re looking at the characters that go to the core of the franchise. Characters that will always be relevant and identifiable.

I think the title is a bit misleading. See I thought it was a list of the top 10 characterisations, of which Devastator and Unicron wouldn't count and some of the others would be a questionable.

But Lord_Zed summed it up well:


I think you have pretty much nailed it as far as G1 characters go, ask a non fan about transformers and they'll often say how cool Optimus Prime and Megatron was...

Soundwave, Devestator and Grimlock are all well known because so many people loved the ideas behind them when they were kids. I'm not talking about their personality (or lack of in the case of toon soundwave)

kup
22nd July 2008, 07:44 PM
I agree with 9/10 of the list including Blackarachnia who is rather popular in many circles but I am sure that this could be contested as many other BW characters were equally as memorable or more so such as Dinobot.

However Hot Shot is such a crappy wannabee character that I have to totally disagree there based on his mere presence. He was just a head above wheelie.

Paulbot
22nd July 2008, 07:51 PM
Hot Shot was interesting in Armada growing up and rising up through the ranks to the point where he was commanding the Autobot forces. I think Hot Rod/Hot Shot are close enough in that regard to be versions of the same character.

roller
22nd July 2008, 07:52 PM
Um why wernt rapido, G2 Meanstreak or Thunderclash not mentioned?

Everyone over 45 even knows them:)

Kyle
22nd July 2008, 08:18 PM
Agreed mostly with 1 - 7, :p

dirge
22nd July 2008, 08:23 PM
I like my girlies pink!

:eek:

BTW I agree with maybe three of the 'bots nominated. But I'll leave that alone...

iceburn
22nd July 2008, 08:33 PM
trying to be silly here, i think megatron should be first!! :P
hmmm STL, are you going to continue 11 - 20? haha

1orion2many
22nd July 2008, 08:50 PM
:)Well done STL, you can see a lot of thought has been put into your decisions. I may not agree with all your choices but do agree with Starscream above Soundwave. Yes a lot of the older fans remember Soundwave but ask the younger ones who he is and I think you may find them saying SoundWho:confused:. The G1 and Cybertron Soundwaves are completely different entities where as you can identify Starscream from one series to the next right up into the movie.;)

Pulse
22nd July 2008, 08:58 PM
Yes a lot of the older fans remember Soundwave but ask the younger ones who he is and I think you may find them saying SoundWho?

I've encountered that first-hand too when on numerous occasions, Non TF people have seen my G1s & they're like "I remember that guy with the cassettes coming out of him but I can't remember his name?" :rolleyes:

Hopefully he'll be in the 2nd movie & then they'll remember Soundwave... :D

Lint
22nd July 2008, 10:05 PM
1-7 are pretty much set in stone, except maybe Devastator for me.

Aside from his many incarnations in recent cartoon series, Hotshot was a pretty central comic character too as I recall. Theres always been a hotshot/hotrod/cheetor type character in every series so try to focus on the character and not get hung up on a 'name'.

STL
22nd July 2008, 11:22 PM
Ah, Hot Shot. :D

I always knew he was going to be the most contentious one. I was actually thinking of inserting an Omega Supreme or Rodimus Prime but there was just that nagging feelin'. I hear you all on him and trust me, I didn't put him there lightly. I read up on him, watched you-tube videos, talked to some kids over the past several months who went through the Unicron Trilogy and his name came up a lot (next to Prime and Megatron). I don't like him very much to be perfectly honest but I think he merits his position.

A character like him was supposed to exist in five lines if you include Movie and Animated. If not for BB, we'd all be using a HS acronym for him these days b/c of his success in TFM. I think that the fact that, like Starscream, the writers always feel compelled to bring someone like him into the fold, is merit enough at this stage for him to sneak in.

That said, I put it to you guys, if Hot Shot should not have snuck in, who would you have put in instead? Best answer gets a spanking new Overlord courtesy of our generous Pulse.


I think the title is a bit misleading. See I thought it was a list of the top 10 characterisations, of which Devastator and Unicron wouldn't count and some of the others would be a questionable.


My bad. I guess that could always be another column. But it's always going to be hard to pick characterisations b/c there really is a lack of consistency across all lines. Of course, that won't mean I won't try. :)


Hot Shot was interesting in Armada growing up and rising up through the ranks to the point where he was commanding the Autobot forces. I think Hot Rod/Hot Shot are close enough in that regard to be versions of the same character.

Well, that was an assertion I made but I was given some examples of their differences so I think the characters are different enough. But not that it matters, I don't envisage Hot Shot lasting in the top 10. I might try this thread again next year after the movie. :D


:eek:
BTW I agree with maybe three of the 'bots nominated. But I'll leave that alone...

:( Come on, these are supposed to flare up discussions!

(and it'd also be nice to see how someone who's more senior, as in lived thru a lot of TF history, around here thinks)


trying to be silly here, i think megatron should be first!! :P
hmmm STL, are you going to continue 11 - 20? haha

:eek: Argh! The last 4 on that list were hard enough. I think Transformers themselves lack sufficient depth to do that anyway but that's a topic for another time.

kup
23rd July 2008, 12:01 AM
Its ok to have a Cheetor/Hot Rod 'youthful' character in; I have no problem with that and ecourage it but the trouble is that unlike Cheetor who was well developed and 'grew' as a character steadily throughout Beast Wars and even Beast Machines (the only character with a logical progression aside from BA) while Hot Shot was just an annoying youth character who was his same annoying self from begining to almost end and was thrust into 'greatness' for some reason. Later in Energon he was just replaced by a more annoying 'youth' character (Ironhide) and thrown into the sidelines.

If Hot Shot had better characterisation or development; I would have been more open to him and his role as 'the bot who kids identify with' as I did with Cheetor but I can't do the same with Hot Shot because his character was just annoying and formulaic there just too much of 'same all' through most of Armada and only at the end did he begin to get some very forced characterisation but it wasn't enough.

liegeprime
23rd July 2008, 12:52 AM
hmmm agree on most except Hotshot. Oh and everytime I see the Armada version, i just cant help but think of Grimlock13's "special" Hotshot, such a retard heheheheheh:D Cant think of a character to put or recommend for that slot though....

STL
23rd July 2008, 12:58 AM
hmmm agree on most except Hotshot. Oh and everytime I see the Armada version, i just cant help but think of Grimlock13's "special" Hotshot, such a retard heheheheheh:D


They are pretty hilarious.



Cant think of a character to put or recommend for that slot though....

What? Even a sparkling, minty brand new Overlord courtesy of the oh-so generous Pulse couldn't prompt you? :p

Pulse
23rd July 2008, 01:01 AM
What? Even a sparkling, minty brand new Overlord courtesy of the oh-so generous Pulse couldn't prompt you? :p


http://img.sparknotes.com/content/sparklife/sparktalk/instructoart_cuckoo.gif

:D

STL
23rd July 2008, 01:32 AM
http://img.sparknotes.com/content/sparklife/sparktalk/instructoart_cuckoo.gif

:D

You have no sense of charity.

Tober
23rd July 2008, 02:41 AM
I'd swap out Hotshot with Skyfire, and it's not just the Macross thing....

Whenever I have discussions with people about Transformers (looooong before I came to this board) I always get asked when 'they' are going to re-release Jey/Skyfire cos he was such a cool character and toy.

I was mildly suprise Dinobot didn't make the list as well... hmmm... maybe as an honorable mention, yeah, he would have liked that.. :p

1orion2many
23rd July 2008, 08:58 AM
:confused:I don't mind Hotshot in your top 10 even though he annoyed me in Armada, if I replaced him I would guess Ironhide would be my choice.;) You need you ever dependable stalwart:D.

SilverDragon
23rd July 2008, 09:59 AM
I agree with pretty much everyone on that list, except the respective placings of Bumblebee and Starscream. Starscream has been in essentially every TF continuaty (except RiD) ever, whereas Bumblebee has only been in three.

In my opinion, Devastator is also memorable because the character is so ironic. You have construction vehicles turning into an engine of destruction.

Wheelie should make the number 10 spot for being The Most Annoying Transformer Of All Time. He is important because he sucks. :p

i_amtrunks
23rd July 2008, 10:36 AM
I have to agree with 9 out of 10 of the list.

Hot Shot is a decent choice, but I do not think he has had the time (or will have the time) to grow in importance to the series thanks to the general feeling that Armada was a bad series (only the first half was bad!).

Perhaps in another 10 years when the people who grew up watching Armada and Energon will see him as a more iconic character, but for now he does seem more like a background player.

Dinobot is a popular character from the BW series, and would probably make a good choice for #10, he seems to be the iconic character (along with Cheetor) from the series.

Bartrim
23rd July 2008, 10:48 AM
Like so many I agree with 9 out 10 of your choices. I would replace Hot Shot with either Cheetor (a better example of the young character maturing), Ironhide (although I don't think he's memorable enough) or Wheelie (Yes I hate him but he is iconic in an infamous sort of way)... Just had a late thought... Omega Supreme perhaps?

Anyway a well written article STL. Really enjoyed the read.

1orion2many
23rd July 2008, 11:28 AM
:)I could be persuaded on BW Dinobot, Code of a Hero I would have to say is my all time favourite ep from any series:cool:.

Gutsman Heavy
23rd July 2008, 01:03 PM
I'll stick up for Hot Shot, yes he is retarded, but he was the spearhead for Armada, the series that pulled TFs back to success from the cock up that BM was.

kup
23rd July 2008, 03:21 PM
I don't understand why Armada was so successful since both the toy line and the cartoon were absolute crap. However it did end up being a financial success.

I have a couple of theories though:

1. After the horribleness of Beast Machines toys (damn you Archer!), people were just glad that Transformers had gone back to being robots other than technorganic Mutant freaks

2. People had already been broken into consuming any product no matter how crap it may be and convince themselves that is great.

Pulse
23rd July 2008, 03:40 PM
You have no sense of charity.

Minicons = Charity :)

Overlord = Over my dead body :D

jaydisc
23rd July 2008, 04:37 PM
I don't understand why Armada was so successful since both the toy line and the cartoon were absolute crap. However it did end up being a financial success.

I think this statement beautifully illustrates the obvious disconnect between so many older collectors and Hasbro's modern business decisions. There seems to be a growing number of older, crotchety collectors who have nothing but disdain for nearly everything Hasbro does, while seemingly forgetting the obvious fact that they are not marketing to collectors.

kup
23rd July 2008, 04:43 PM
I think this statement beautifully illustrates the obvious disconnect between so many older collectors and Hasbro's modern business decisions. There seems to be a growing number of older, crotchety collectors who have nothing but disdain for nearly everything Hasbro does, while seemingly forgetting the obvious fact that they are not marketing to collectors.

hmm..NO.

Armada sucks because of that, they had sucky toys and a bad cartoon with gimmick centric designs. Many of them were gimmick first and transformer second.

I am sure that if I were still a kid and had experienced proper progressive Transformer lines before that (G1, BW, RID) I would not be all that happy about Armada or perhaps I have always been a collector at heart?

Armada was a regression in design and toy technology. Many of the figures had appallingly simplistic designs (often thanks to the dumb Minicon gimmick) and lacked articulation which design wise were a step back from Beast Wars which by then was already over 5 years old. I am also preety sure that a kid would be smart enough to see the blatant attempt at trying to 'exploit' the popularity of Pokamon with their 'gotta catch all Minicons' cartoon.

The day I see Hasbro producing a new modern line with properly thought out designs, then you would see me change my 'negative' tone to new things that Hasbro does.

Edit: I think that I did change my Negative view on a modern line. Aside from the endless repaints, I did very much enjoy many of the movie figures.

jaydisc
23rd July 2008, 04:52 PM
Armada sucks because of that, they had sucky toys and a bad cartoon with gimmick centric designs. Many of them were gimmick first and transformer second.

Further evidence of a disconnect as the line was hugely successful.

kup
23rd July 2008, 04:55 PM
Further evidence of a disconnect as the line was hugely successful.

I am not denying that and that is my question. Why?

jaydisc
23rd July 2008, 04:58 PM
My answer is that children and collectors have different desires, expectations, pleasure centers, etc.

dirge
23rd July 2008, 05:42 PM
jay, for me the magic of Transformers has always been the cleverness of the Transformation. And that doesn't strictly mean a _complex_ transformation, but a good design. In general, Armada put little effort into the transformation and a _lot_ of effort into gimmicks that, frankly, weren't always that clever.

If I'm understanding kup correctly, I think he's saying that Armada's focus was "off" compared to most Transformers toylines.

As a very long time collector, I was unimpressed with Armada for that reason, but at the same time, I generally liked the (smaller) Energon toys and Cybertron toys. Some of the Cybertron toys were designed really well.

I can't speak for anyone else in this respect, but I'm often annoyed by Hasbro's lack of care/attention - and their penchant for repainting is a good example of this. I don't expect them to do everything 100% right, but there are times when they just don't seem to be trying - such as the slew of variant Movie repaints (blue paint in cylinders, First Strike Prime). I can live with repaints, even those that aren't tributing G1 or BW or... whatever... so long as the repaint offers something. A great example, again from the movie line, would be Salvage - a new name, very different paint mask, and using a good mould.

STL... okay. I'll disect your list.

1) Optimus Prime - not really a very interesting character, in concept. But yeah, he's iconic. So fair enough, I'll live with that one.

2) Megatron - again, iconic. A more interesting character than Prime, overall.

3) Bumblebee - a good character, used a lot, developed well. I agree.

4) Starscream - no way. Very well known, but not really a character I've ever found especially interesting. He did receive a lot of attention (if not character development), despite being a fairly simple character. As an icon, he's fairly well known, but I'd easily rank Soundwave above Screamer.

5) Soundwave - Iconic, well developed in the G1 comic (if not the cartoon). The concept of the character is good, even if Sunbow really didn't use it.

6) Devastator - Not really much character there, but as an identifiable icon - which is where you seem to be coming from, yeah he's right up there.

7) Grimlock - A good character, developed well whenever used. Not usually the nicest guy but the flawed characters are often the most interesting. Iconic and just plain fun!

8) Unicron - Okay, again not a whole lot of character, since he's really just a giant eating machine. But in terms of profile, he's up there.

9) Blackarachnia - Not really iconic, but like Grimlock she's a really good concept which has been developed well.

10) Hot Shot - bwahahaha. The kids in the ad breaks had more character development than anyone in Armada. I'm sorry.

My ten? Well, I'm taking their icon status/recognition into account, but really I'm looking for the character that have made TFs memorable...

1) Megatron - the embodiment of evil for a generation.

2) Soundwave - such an icon, "that cassette guy" probably the best known G1 Decepticon. Sure he wasn't much more than a storage for the cassettes in the G1 cartoon, but the comic gave him the depth he deserved.

3) Optimus Prime. Yes, he's Captain America trapped inside a truck, but he's too iconic to ignore, despite being a shallow character. If the character was more interesting to begin with he'd be #1.

4) Grimlock - A really good concept which was developed well. And an icon.

5) BW Megatron - a much more sinister and cunning version of the G1 version

6) Optimus Primal - The flawed hero is just much more exciting. This guy is forced to be a hero, and does a good job. And he's not Mr Perfect as Optimus Prime is often portrayed.

7) Blackarachnia - just a really well developed character, who added so much to Beast Wars.

8) Bumblebee - I'll lump the G1 & Movie boys together here, since they're really representing the same concept. The small, tough, Autobot makes the franchise accessible.

9) Cheetor - A character who developed very well through Beast Wars. And he even managed to survive as the same concept into Beast Machines, despite that series throwing out the history of many BW characters. The concept of Cheetor is fairly unremarkable, but he was just done so well.

10) Ginrai. Yeah, he's obscure. Yeah, he's technically a human in charge of a transtector. But, like Optimal Primal, he had the mantle of leadershp thrust on him - and also had to deal with becoming a giant robot. During the course of the Masterforce cartoon his character was well developed from the young, carefree, traveller to the bloke who accepts he has to save the world.

Honourable mentions to go Shockwave (comics) & Sky-Byte. Tarantulas probably would have made this list if BW hadn't been canned before all was revealed about him.

Yes, I realise I haven't included much from the later years. Armada was rubbish in terms of character depth, I haven't seen Energon or Animated, nor enough Cybertron to really comment on the characters there (hence my ignoring those series). RiD's character were generally shallow, although Sky-Byte was just so much fun!

Tober
23rd July 2008, 05:47 PM
Chances are if you don't understand the success of Armada then you are not seeing it from the perspective of a typical male child.

There are HUGE amounts of marketing research that go into understanding/exploiting the child market. McDonalds and Disney are notorious for it. Hasbro most probably does it too.

Male children are stimulated by bright colors, fast movement, loud noises, catchy music and violence. Transformers offers them that and then represents it in the material form of toys. In western cultures many families with children have both parents working creating greater income to spend on their kids who are being raised by brightly colored talking characters on their televisions.

EDIT:


My answer is that children and collectors have different desires, expectations, pleasure centers, etc.

Yeah, that's the one.

Must hit 'reply' faster... :rolleyes:

kup
23rd July 2008, 06:11 PM
Chances are if you don't understand the success of Armada then you are not seeing it from the perspective of a typical male child.

There are HUGE amounts of marketing research that go into understanding/exploiting the child market. McDonalds and Disney are notorious for it. Hasbro most probably does it too.

Male children are stimulated by bright colors, fast movement, loud noises, catchy music and violence. Transformers offers them that and then represents it in the material form of toys. In western cultures many families with children have both parents working creating greater income to spend on their kids who are being raised by brightly colored talking characters on their televisions.

EDIT:



Yeah, that's the one.

Must hit 'reply' faster... :rolleyes:

I still don't get it, possibly because I have never been influenced by popular hype even as a kid. When I found myself dedicating or following a franchise or cartoon/toy line it was always because I enjoyed it not because most other do.

So I am pretty sure that if I were 6-10 years old when Armada was released; I would have gone 'meh'; specially if I had previous exposure to older but better designed toys.

dirge
23rd July 2008, 07:16 PM
Chances are if you don't understand the success of Armada then you are not seeing it from the perspective of a typical male child.


The commercial success of Armada doesn't impress me one bit, though. I don't care how many kids liked the show - because there was almost character development and awful dialogue. Optimus Prime, Megatron & Hot Shot all address their troops as "men", when none of them were commanding men. I was very unimpressed with this and other aspects of the dubbed dialogue.


There are HUGE amounts of marketing research that go into understanding/exploiting the child market. McDonalds and Disney are notorious for it. Hasbro most probably does it too.


McDonalds are in a far more competitive market, mind you. They have to compete with Wendys, Burger King, Taco Bell, Pizza Hut, Subway, Dominos, Arbys and others in the USA. I can't really comment on Disney.

Hasbro's only serious competitor in the US market is Mattel. They've bought all the other competitors (Kenner, Tonka, Galoob, etc). I'd be surprised if Hasbro bother doing endless market research when they've spent the last 15 years buying all the brands in the toy aisle.

Some of Hasbro's recent efforts smack of underestimating kids, too. FABs were aimed at 8 year olds. Most eight year olds would see them as baby toys... when I was five I was playing with G1 Jazz and co. Hasbro now believes that five year olds should be playing with Cyberslammers. If Hasbro did in fact do market research on these lines, I'm worried about the next generation!

Tober
23rd July 2008, 07:51 PM
I didn't like Armada either, Energon even less. Cybertron I did kinda like. There's little correlation between my personal preferences and the success of the various toy lines.

I had to look after my mate's kids a few years ago in the morning when Pokemon was on. Their kids liked it heaps even though 90%+ of the eps were the same thing. On the few occasions where there was actual character development I actually liked it - the kids didn't. Why? Because there were no battles.

Children want different things in their shows than adults. What you want in a show doesn't really matter - Hasbro's obligations lie in appeasing their investors and distributors, not adult collectors. Not in weather this next ridiculous fight scene is going to further advance the plot.

The minds of children and adults are different. Have a read through the various Animated Episode review threads and you will see a trend in what most of us think of Bumblebee. Guess who the most popular Animated character is amongst children...

I would rather see more new Alternator and Masterpiece molds but they don't have any real supporting fiction and are barely profitable to Hasbro. If I had the money I would buy them out and force them to make more, but I'm a few Billion short. Maybe ask Tiby for a loan if you think you can do a better job at turning out a profit than Hasbro are.

jaydisc
23rd July 2008, 08:17 PM
the cleverness of the Transformation


because there was almost character development and awful dialogue


Some of Hasbro's recent efforts smack of underestimating kids, too.

I don't think you're understanding my (and seemingly Tober's) point. We probably both agree with all of the above sentiments, but Hasbro's approach is working, despite all of your alleged shortcomings, but rather quite possible due to them.

kup
23rd July 2008, 08:17 PM
I would say 'Kids TODAY are different'.

dirge
23rd July 2008, 08:17 PM
I never said I'm worried about Hasbro turning a profit ;)

Getting back to the original point of this discussion, I don't think Armada's Hot Shot can be classed as one of the top ten Transformers characters of all time, regardless of how successful that series may have been - purely because he was poorly portrayed and the dialogue in Armada was so badly written.

If kids liked Armada purely for the fight scenes, then I think it's fair to say that Hot Shot's character (or lack of it, actually) has anything to do with Armada's success. Instead the dramatic fight scenes are the hallmark of that series, rather than any character.

kup
23rd July 2008, 08:19 PM
I never said I'm worried about Hasbro turning a profit ;)

Getting back to the original point of this discussion, I don't think Armada's Hot Shot can be classed as one of the top ten Transformers characters of all time, regardless of how successful that series may have been - purely because he was poorly portrayed and the dialogue in Armada was so badly written.

If kids liked Armada purely for the fight scenes, then I think it's fair to say that Hot Shot's character (or lack of it, actually) has anything to do with Armada's success. Instead the dramatic fight scenes are the hallmark of that series, rather than any character.

I disagree, aside from the Unicron Battles part, the fight things in Armada were terrible.

Lord_Zed
23rd July 2008, 08:23 PM
j

STL... okay. I'll disect your list.

1) Optimus Prime - not really a very interesting character, in concept. But yeah, he's iconic. So fair enough, I'll live with that one.

2) Megatron - again, iconic. A more interesting character than Prime, overall.

3) Bumblebee - a good character, used a lot, developed well. I agree.

4) Starscream - no way. Very well known, but not really a character I've ever found especially interesting. He did receive a lot of attention (if not character development), despite being a fairly simple character. As an icon, he's fairly well known, but I'd easily rank Soundwave above Screamer.

5) Soundwave - Iconic, well developed in the G1 comic (if not the cartoon). The concept of the character is good, even if Sunbow really didn't use it.

6) Devastator - Not really much character there, but as an identifiable icon - which is where you seem to be coming from, yeah he's right up there.

7) Grimlock - A good character, developed well whenever used. Not usually the nicest guy but the flawed characters are often the most interesting. Iconic and just plain fun!

8) Unicron - Okay, again not a whole lot of character, since he's really just a giant eating machine. But in terms of profile, he's up there.

9) Blackarachnia - Not really iconic, but like Grimlock she's a really good concept which has been developed well.

10) Hot Shot - bwahahaha. The kids in the ad breaks had more character development than anyone in Armada. I'm sorry.

My ten? Well, I'm taking their icon status/recognition into account, but really I'm looking for the character that have made TFs memorable...

1) Megatron - the embodiment of evil for a generation.

2) Soundwave - such an icon, "that cassette guy" probably the best known G1 Decepticon. Sure he wasn't much more than a storage for the cassettes in the G1 cartoon, but the comic gave him the depth he deserved.

3) Optimus Prime. Yes, he's Captain America trapped inside a truck, but he's too iconic to ignore, despite being a shallow character. If the character was more interesting to begin with he'd be #1.

4) Grimlock - A really good concept which was developed well. And an icon.

5) BW Megatron - a much more sinister and cunning version of the G1 version

6) Optimus Primal - The flawed hero is just much more exciting. This guy is forced to be a hero, and does a good job. And he's not Mr Perfect as Optimus Prime is often portrayed.

7) Blackarachnia - just a really well developed character, who added so much to Beast Wars.

8) Bumblebee - I'll lump the G1 & Movie boys together here, since they're really representing the same concept. The small, tough, Autobot makes the franchise accessible.

9) Cheetor - A character who developed very well through Beast Wars. And he even managed to survive as the same concept into Beast Machines, despite that series throwing out the history of many BW characters. The concept of Cheetor is fairly unremarkable, but he was just done so well.

10) Ginrai. Yeah, he's obscure. Yeah, he's technically a human in charge of a transtector. But, like Optimal Primal, he had the mantle of leadershp thrust on him - and also had to deal with becoming a giant robot. During the course of the Masterforce cartoon his character was well developed from the young, carefree, traveller to the bloke who accepts he has to save the world.

Honourable mentions to go Shockwave (comics) & Sky-Byte. Tarantulas probably would have made this list if BW hadn't been canned before all was revealed about him.

Yes, I realise I haven't included much from the later years. Armada was rubbish in terms of character depth, I haven't seen Energon or Animated, nor enough Cybertron to really comment on the characters there (hence my ignoring those series). RiD's character were generally shallow, although Sky-Byte was just so much fun!

I think you missed the point a bit, although truth be told STL did say character, what he should have said is Icon. The explanation he gave implies these are Iconic characters that are recognisable beyond just the fandom. in that regard Prime is more recognisable than Megatron.

If you were writing a list of the most interesting characters or personalities then that would be a lot different. In that regard I'm not sure what your aiming for in the your list.While #4 onwards are all deserving interesting characters Megs, Soundwave and Prime are pretty simple. All 3 are iconic but their personalities are simple. G1 Megatron is your cut and dried cartoon megalomaniac, Soundwave had more personality on the comic but he was limited to just being a schemer who feigned loyalty, no development there. And Prime well you already summed that up.

In terms of TF characters with depth, no list would be complete without Dinobot and Scorponok.

dirge
23rd July 2008, 08:33 PM
I don't think you're understanding my (and seemingly Tober's) point. We probably both agree with all of the above sentiments, but Hasbro's approach is working, despite all of your alleged shortcomings, but rather quite possible due to them.

I think Hasbro's approach works because there are few alternatives in the marketplace.

Between them, Hasbro and Mattel control something like 80% of the US toy marketplace. If a kid wants to buy an action figure (and he probably does), his options are relatively limited. In the 1980s we had Matchbox's Voltron, Mattel's Masters of the Universe, Hasbro's Transformers, Kenner's Mask, Tonka's Gobots and more.

Hasbro bought Kenner and eventually let the brand fade away. Matchbox is now owned by Mattel, and so is now relegated to producing its signature line. Tonka was bought by Hasbro and is also only producing its signature line.

Of course, the penetration of games consoles has also reduced the popularity of toys to an extent, and has most likely affected the expectations of kids (attention span, sensitivity to violence).

It would be interesting to see how Armada would have fared if it was released as a competitor to G1 (similar to Gobots) - obviously the animation is of a different era, and the toy technology differs - I'm talking about style and focus. We'll never know, of course, but G1 did well in a more competitive market.

For what it's worth, I think Beast Wars would have given G1 a real run for its money (actually, it would have whupped a$$!).

dirge
23rd July 2008, 08:38 PM
If you were writing a list of the most interesting characters or personalities then that would be a lot different. In that regard I'm not sure what your aiming for in the your list.While #4 onwards are all deserving interesting characters Megs, Soundwave and Prime are pretty simple. All 3 are iconic but their personalities are simple. G1 Megatron is your cut and dried cartoon megalomaniac, Soundwave had more personality on the comic but he was limited to just being a schemer who feigned loyalty, no development there. And Prime well you already summed that up.


You're right - Prime and Megatron are cookie cutter in many respects. But as I said, I did take into consideration the iconic status of characters. While I think (comic) Soundwave is interesting, these three are so ridiculously iconic that I couldn't leave them out. Prime's stupidly heroic nature is shallow, Megatron is a classic cartoon villian, but they embody <i>Transformers</i>, so their presence in the list reflects how crucial they are to almost any Transformers story.



In terms of TF characters with depth, no list would be complete without Dinobot and Scorponok.

Yeah, Scorponok is interesting, although he's outside my top list. And yeah I forgot Dinobot :eek:

Tober
23rd July 2008, 08:53 PM
I would say 'Kids TODAY are different'.

Kids today can turn on Tivo or a games console. Most other entertainmant they want they can download. Their parents can order their toys from online shops and leave negative feedback if it doesn't ship next day.

Back then kids still read comics, rode bikes to exotic toy stores searching for toys to swap price labels with and then go back home to beat up their siblings... great times. :D

Kids today wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes back in 1984.

(double posted - deleted one & fixed a typo - dirge)

Fungal Infection
23rd July 2008, 09:04 PM
Kids today can turn on Tivo or a games console. Most other entertainmant they want they can download. Their parents can order their toys from online shops and leave negative feedback if it doesn't ship next day.

Back then kids still read comics, rode bikes to exotic toy stores searching for toys to swap price labels with and then go back home to beat up their siblings... great times. :D

Kids today wouldn't have lasted 5 minutes back in 1984.

(double posted - deleted one & fixed a typo - dirge)

The swapping price labels thing gives me a sense of deja vu...... :D

Borgeman
24th July 2008, 12:16 AM
So I am pretty sure that if I were 6-10 years old when Armada was released; I would have gone 'meh'; specially if I had previous exposure to older but better designed toys.


hindsight is a wonderful thing :)

George

STL
24th July 2008, 03:44 AM
I think Jaydisc has summed it up best in regard to Armada. I don't like the toyline as a collector and think of it as absolute mediocrity but I do acknowledge its gimmicky appeal. I think we hold Hasbro to a too high standard of care sometimes. Sure, I get frustrated with things like quality control and the like but in terms of design, I can understand where they're going.

Animated is hardly a step in the collector direction but as collectors we were always like to fall into line and start collecting it too. But if u stop n think about, we were the last people Animated was ended at. I don't particularly mind though b/c I imagine w/ TFM movies now, we'll see a balance of Animated-kids style and more classic/realistic stuff.

I just don't think it's fair to say Hasbro are all careless and evil for nto giving a rats about collectors. They don't and we're nothing more than just an afterthought to them.

As in relation to your 10, what Lord Zed said:


I think you missed the point a bit, although truth be told STL did say character, what he should have said is Icon. The explanation he gave implies these are Iconic characters that are recognisable beyond just the fandom. in that regard Prime is more recognisable than Megatron.

If you were writing a list of the most interesting characters or personalities then that would be a lot different. In that regard I'm not sure what your aiming for in the your list.While #4 onwards are all deserving interesting characters Megs, Soundwave and Prime are pretty simple. All 3 are iconic but their personalities are simple. G1 Megatron is your cut and dried cartoon megalomaniac, Soundwave had more personality on the comic but he was limited to just being a schemer who feigned loyalty, no development there. And Prime well you already summed that up.

In terms of TF characters with depth, no list would be complete without Dinobot and Scorponok.

The one thing all this makes me want to do is write a column about character depth. A lot of personal favourites there. You've given me an itch to write about Prime, Dirge. :p

kup
24th July 2008, 09:26 AM
hindsight is a wonderful thing :)

George

I have done that as a kid when it came to 'popular' things that I didn't like so I am confident I would have.

Bartrim
24th July 2008, 10:20 AM
I'll stick up for Hot Shot, yes he is retarded, but he was the spearhead for Armada, the series that pulled TFs back to success from the cock up that BM was.

I think this is a very good point. A lot of people I know (myself included) disregarded TF's when they went into the Beast Wars/Beast Machines era (don't flame me Beast Wars fans I am older and wiser now and enjoyed the series). When I first noticed Armada on Cartoon Network all those years ago seeing them as vehicles rekindled the flame slightly (It wasn't until I found the G1 movie on DVD that it really took off again) and I watched it casually with interest. With Hot Shot being one of the new key characters on a new show I can understand his placement in the list.

1orion2many
24th July 2008, 10:28 AM
:oI liked Beast Machines:D

kup
24th July 2008, 10:33 AM
I think this is a very good point. A lot of people I know (myself included) disregarded TF's when they went into the Beast Wars/Beast Machines era (don't flame me Beast Wars fans I am older and wiser now and enjoyed the series). When I first noticed Armada on Cartoon Network all those years ago seeing them as vehicles rekindled the flame slightly (It wasn't until I found the G1 movie on DVD that it really took off again) and I watched it casually with interest. With Hot Shot being one of the new key characters on a new show I can understand his placement in the list.

I have to agree with the above to some degree. As much as I liked Beast Wars, toy wise (non Japanese) it had a monumental flaw and that was a lack of variety. They were all Beasts, about half were robotic with pseudo vehicle modes (Transmetals) but the Beast theme was still very much present.

Beast Machines tried to provide variety but making the good guys appallingly bad non robot toys and the bad guys drone like robots was not the way to go.

RID also offered variety but compared to BW, BM and Unicron trilogy it was not that prevalent in the eyes of the general public.

When Armada came out; on the surface it looked like they had gone back to their roots with cars, planes, etc and that is excellent and I know that originally this concept did catch my eye but when I saw the gimmick centric toys, cartoon and plot, it killed any enthusiasm I had for it.

However Armada was not the provider of variety as most toys were just gimmick boxes with a vehicle theme of some sort. It neglected variety.

Energon and Cybertron went for over the top Sci-Fi vehicle modes for their entire lines and again neglected variety. However as Dirge mentioned, the smaller toys did do an attempt at realism which worked amazingly well such as Clockers, Armorhide, etc.

The only line which was succesful at providing an excellent balance of variety between realistic, Sci-Fi, Beast Modes (organic looking and robotic) and gimmicks was G1. No line since has been able to provide enough variety to satisfy all tastes.

Paulbot
24th July 2008, 11:40 AM
Energon and Cybertron went for over the top Sci-Fi vehicle modes for their entire lines and again neglected variety.

The only line which was succesful at providing an excellent balance of variety between realistic, Sci-Fi, Beast Modes (organic looking and robotic) and gimmicks was G1. No line since has been able to provide enough variety to satisfy all tastes.

I find it hard to believe you think that Cybertron neglected variety when they had slightly sci-fi Earth vehicles (earth planet), Sci-Fi vehicles (speed planet), robotic beast (beast planet), and big construction vehicles ( giant planet), and one Transformer that turned into a whole planet! While the line had a central gimmick it didn't get in the way all that much. I personally thought the Beast Planet toys were the weakest and didn't buy any of those, but there were plenty from the other Planets that I liked.

kup
24th July 2008, 11:44 AM
I find it hard to believe you think that Cybertron neglected variety when they had slightly sci-fi Earth vehicles (earth planet), Sci-Fi vehicles (speed planet), robotic beast (beast planet), and big construction vehicles ( giant planet), and one Transformer that turned into a whole planet! While the line had a central gimmick it didn't get in the way all that much. I personally thought the Beast Planet toys were the weakest and didn't buy any of those, but there were plenty from the other Planets that I liked.

Sci-Fi doesn't necessarily equal Space ship.

Many of their car and construction vehicle modes had an overarching futuristic/Sci-Fi theme.

When it comes to Beast Modes, I will concede but they were rather weak as you mentioned but still overwhelmed by the Sci-Fi theme.

Transforming planets are also included in the non realistic Sci-Fi theme, they are actually great examples of it.

Lord_Zed
24th July 2008, 12:27 PM
The one thing all this makes me want to do is write a column about character depth. A lot of personal favourites there. You've given me an itch to write about Prime, Dirge. :p


I look forward to that, but don't forget Scorpy and Dinobot or I will hunt you down, through all of time and space if necessary!!! :D

SilverDragon
24th July 2008, 09:51 PM
I have to agree with the above to some degree. As much as I liked Beast Wars, toy wise (non Japanese) it had a monumental flaw and that was a lack of variety. They were all Beasts, about half were robotic with pseudo vehicle modes (Transmetals) but the Beast theme was still very much present.


That is why it was called Beast Wars. :p


With Hot Shot being one of the new key characters on a new show I can understand his placement in the list.

Armada's hardly new.

Bartrim
25th July 2008, 08:51 AM
Armada's hardly new.

Sorry I should of been more specific. I meant a new show at the time.

kup
25th July 2008, 09:45 AM
That is why it was called Beast Wars. :p


Yeah it was but what I am saying is that not everyone digged the Beast Modes even though the concept had already originated in G1 and many of the complainers didn't mind it.

What I am getting at is what about the people who don't like Beast modes? There was nothing there for them and since from 1996-2000 it was all about Beast modes and nothing else; those people must have felt alienated.

Pulse
25th July 2008, 10:52 AM
What I am getting at is what about the people who don't like Beast modes? There was nothing there for them and since from 1996-2000 it was all about Beast modes and nothing else; those people must have felt alienated.

That was when they headed in the direction of the Machine Men... :rolleyes::D

SilverDragon
25th July 2008, 10:22 PM
Yeah it was but what I am saying is that not everyone digged the Beast Modes even though the concept had already originated in G1 and many of the complainers didn't mind it.

What I am getting at is what about the people who don't like Beast modes? There was nothing there for them and since from 1996-2000 it was all about Beast modes and nothing else; those people must have felt alienated.

I see what you mean. Well, they had BWII over in Japan for vehicle modes (albeit repainted molds), and Machine Wars, though since that lasted about two weeks it wasn't much to tide the vehicle mode fans over. Oh, and there was also the Machine Men. :D