Are we becoming jaded or more discerning as Transformer fans?

[BigTransformerTrev]

Are we becoming jaded or simply more discerning as Transformer fans?

As someone who tries to examine their own behaviour from time to time, I noticed a while back that I was doing a lot of whinging about the current state of Transformers. I was complaining to my wife about how I couldn’t find any of the figures I wanted in the stores, complaining online about possible problems with the upcoming movie and making derisive comments in toy reviews about either figures I have that were not perfect in some respect, or figures that I had decided to bypass altogether.

Then I thought about how I was being and tried to put things in perspective. I went and looked at the masses of toy crates I have full of my nearly 1400 strong collection, the boxes of comics, the bookshelf full of TF novels and art books, the DVD rack full of both individual DVD’s and Box Sets, the shelf above my computer covered in TF busts and I thought ‘What the hell am I whinging about – look how damn good I have it!’

I then went online on several websites and had a look at what others were saying. It turned out that perhaps the majority of TF fans on these sites were saying similar things to me about the movies, cartoons, comics, toylines etc. And it made me think ‘Are we becoming jaded and ungrateful as a fanbase? Or are we simply more discerning consumers of products and patrons of the franchise?’

As a teacher I have the opportunity to talk to many 5 to 18 year olds, and they all know that Mad Mr Hopkins is a Transformers nut. So I get a chance to talk to lots of different age groups about my passion. Pretty much everyone under 18 I chat to LOVES the three live action movies and really enjoy the new cartoons that have come out. I have nieces who are in their 20’s and married and their husbands, who are somewhat bemused by their new mad uncles hobby, remember more about the likes of Armada than Beast Wars, and had a passing interest in the movies but couldn’t tell you anything about them. This got me thinking, 'Is our attitude to the current state of Transformers affected by our age – are the G1 fans jaded while the Prime fans jubilant?

So to test the theory, I created a poll on Ozformers in regards to users age. I thought this would give me a good indication of the average ages of people that were passionate enough about the brand to actually join a forum and discuss Transformers.

60% of the responders indicated they were in their 30’s, the numbers slightly higher in the 35-40 year old range. Therefore we can make the assumption that these people were there right at the beginning of the 30 year saga of the Transformers. They have seen Transformers in all their iterations throughout the years. Over 30% of the total responders indicated that they were in their 20’s – therefore have been there for the vast majority of the TF saga, and have had ample time to be exposed to that which came before (G1 episodes rerun as G2 cartoons in the 90’s, Beast Wars in the 90’s etc).

Working on the assumption that the people who took the time to vote in the poll are also the people who enjoy leaving comments in threads, we can deduce that a lot of the comments left are from seasoned TF fans. Therefore, are these fans when they leave negative comments about the movies, toys etc jaded? Certainly a lot of the toys that cop a lot of flak are a million miles ahead of where the G1 toys were. Or are these people simply discerning? That having seen it all they know what constitutes a good plot, a quality toy and so on. So does age and experience colour our perceptions of where the brand is headed? The evidence would seem to suggest so.


Let’s have a look at three of the main facets of Transformers that seem to cause contention.

TOYS
Of course as the technology progresses perhaps one should expect a higher level of quality and sophistication in their figures. But in regards to intricacy, Transformers certainly seem to go up and down in regards to what the main line is offering. G1 & G2 were fairly simplistic (fun, but simplistic). RID – well Sideburn from 2001 STILL gives me headaches! Armada Megatron and the Seekers – fairly simple. Mirage from Energon – damn hard and annoying! A lot of people argue that the current Generations toys have gotten the mix fairly right – you need to employ your brain but don’t have to spend half an hour to change your toys mode. Even with the movie toys there is a marked difference from movie to movie – Leader Sentinel Prime took a great deal of time to change, but now the announcement with the AoE toys is that they are going back to a more simplistic transformation scheme in order to make them more accessible to everyone. Is this a step forward or back in toy technology? Are the fans happy or bitter about this change? Opinions vary.


Movies
We’ve been fortunate enough to have 3 live-action Transformer movies come out so far. We’ve gotten to see:

*Optimus Prime as a big truck with trailer voiced by Peter Cullen dash into battle!
*Starscream as an F22 act the toady to Megatron and take command as soon as Megatron dies.
*Soundwave voiced by Frank Welker unleash Ravage and Laserbeak
*The Constructicons form Devestator and destroy a pyramid!
*Jetfire change his allegiance from Decepticon to Autobot.
*The Wreckers go into battle
*Cybertron transported to Earth via a massive space bridge by the Decepticons so they can use the human race as slaves just like season one of G1!

But what do we talk actually about?
*Skids and Mudflap – awful racist characters
*Colour schemes all wrong
*Names used randomly
*Little plot
*Even less characterization
*Bumbleebee not being able to talk
*Irritating humans

The upcoming movie
(I believe what I am about to mention is already widely known but if it’s still considered a spoiler please feel free section-mods to white it out).
We have Grimlock appearing on the big screen! Whoever would have thought 10 years ago that this would ever happen for us?!?! A. LIVE. ACTION. GRIMLOCK. IN. A MOVIE! We should all be on our knee’s thanking Primus that such a thing is going to happen!

But the comments that have been bandied around the boards are often:
*Optimus is going to ride Grimlock? Lame!
*Why is he so huge and with horns? He’s supposed to be a T-Rex, not a giant fricken dragon!
*His robot mode silhouette makes him look like he’s wearing court-jester shoes!

Once again, discerning viewers or nit-pickers?


Hasbro
Many of us have become frustrated and not understand the reasons behind some of Hasbro’s decisions with our beloved brand, despite:

*Continued expansion of the brand. In the 80’s we had G1. In the 90's we had G2 & BW. Then from the 00's onwards we have had BM, RID, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, Animated, Prime, Rescue Bots, a bunch of video games, tons of comics and 3 live action flicks! All with associated toy lines!
*Dedication to the brand: Millions upon millions have been spent upon the promotion of Transformers to the point that in most of the western world Transformers is a name and brand that would be recognized in most households. It has risen from relative obscurity in the early 90’s to something that can be recognized across multiple generations and social classes.
*Toylines that pay homage to the origins of the Transformers. These include Kre-O, Titanium, Attactix, Universe, Classics, Generations, Mighty Muggs, Constructbots, Robot Heroes, HOC, Bot Shots etc. For those of us that love G1, some of us now have multiple versions of classic G1 characters, as well as seeing those characters be reinvented in new and interesting ways in other TF universes (everyone from Ratchet to Blitzwing).


So perhaps we should be grateful to Hasbro for all they have done and all they provide us with. But again, what do many of us discuss?

*Character names used willy-nilly
*Overstocking of particular waves of toys
*Overuse of particular characters (Bbee & Optimus) whilst other characters get nary a figure (we still wait to see with baited breath what the Generations Arcee will look like)
*A distinct lack of global releases of popular toylines (many Generations not reaching Australia)




So, consider the following questions:

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?

What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)

Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded, unable to appreciate just how great things have become for TF fans? Or do you believe that it is simply as the brand has evolved, the fanbase and its expectations have evolved, and after 30 years we should expect a higher level of product - be that toy or media - as a natural matter of course?



Discuss :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I think the truth is "a bit of both." We have become both more discerning and in some ways more jaded than we were as kids. And why should we not? We're not children any more. But this doesn't mean that our opinions about toys shouldn't matter any more either.

I think what's happened is:

a) We've become a lot more experienced. In say, 1990, we only had 6 years' worth of Transformers knowledge and experience. Now we have thirty years of TF knowledge and experience. We're by no means "Noobs" when it comes to all things Transformers.

b) Adults are fully rational agents. We are more critical and evaluative thinkers than we were as children. Sure, we were less critical and more accepting of our toys when we were kids, but we were also a lot less critical and more accepting of a whole lot of other things like society, politics and the world around us in general. We were blissfully ignorant of many, many things. Children are quasi rational agents. This is why they're not allowed to vote, drive, consume alcohol, sign legal contracts, marry, purchase vehicles or real estate, join the military, leave school, live on their own etc. As a child, I was never aware of the "hidden racism" in some Transformers stories (i.e. portraying goodness and evil as being 'racial' characteristics of being Autobots & Decepticons, as well as the whole blue/red eye colour physical racial trait) -- it's a far cry from say the IDW comics which doesn't necessarily paint the Transformers as good or evil... they simply make decisions that may be deemed as good or bad depending on who's looking at it (or from the POV of neutralists like Metalhawk, equally bad). There are noble Decepticons (e.g. Cyclonus and now Megatron), as well as ethically questionable Autobots (e.g. Prowl, Whirl etc.). The G1 Marvel Comics gave us similar characters too (e.g. Flame, Scorponok), and even the G1 cartoon gave us morally dubious characters in Season 3, such as Blitzwing, Octane and arguably Sandstorm.

A good story is one that both children and adults enjoy, often for different reasons.
e.g.
+ The Simpsons. Kids quote things like, "D'oh!' "Aye carumba!" and "Eat my shorts!" Adults quote things like, "Ich bin ein Springfielder." ;)
+ When I was a kid, I loved Star Wars because of the robots and spaceships and lasers etc., I still love these things, but as I got older I came to fall in love with the story and characters. As a young child my favourite Star Wars character was R5-D4. That's right, the Astromech droid with a bad motivator. Just because I thought he was a really cool looking robot. :p
+ Beast Wars: kids would love it because of the fun and action -- I was a uni student when it came out, but I loved it because of the characters, stories and the nerd in me absolutely loved the world building and how it expanded and enhanced G1/G2 lore! :D
+ Monty Python. Kids who watch it like the sheer silliness of many of their gags, but adults also like a lot of the more mature commentary that they make. e.g. the scene from Holy Grail where a woman is accused of witchcraft and flimsy pseudo-evidence is used to prove her guilt. Kids laugh at the silliness of the whole process, but adults can see that it's a metaphor for the way that some people will adjust facts to fit conclusions, rather than adjusting conclusions to fit facts (e.g. Holocaust deniers, claims that immunisations cause autism etc.).
"So, if she weighs the same as a duck..." ;)

And toys work similarly. A good toy is one that you love as a child and continue to love and appreciate as an adult. Take the original G1 Soundwave toy, to this day I still think it's an absolute marvel of a toy. I love the way that it transforms from a compact life size microcassette player to an imposing looking robot. I love how the batteries can be removed from the battery compartment and become the weapons, and I love little details like a movable volume control dial, movable side-switch tab, pressable buttons, working eject button, and the toy can hold microcassette tapes which also transform into robots! Except for the missiles, every part of the toy is self-contained. It is a toy that I still absolutely love to bits even 30 years later, every much as I did back in the 80s. Masterpiece Soundwave is - IMHO - fundamentally fairly similar to G1 Soundwave, and I think that's a testament to just how well made the original toy was made.

On the other end of the spectrum are Firecons. These are toys that I liked to some degree as a kid. It shot sparks! That made them really cool as fire-breathing monsters. And yeah, we all laughed at the "turn around" transformations that reminded us of Monkey Magic. In fact, we sometimes voiced the Firecons with that cheesy Asian-dub accent that they used in Monkey. :p "Sparkstalker, you swine!" ;) But the toys really haven't aged as well, and I certainly don't feel the love for them now as I did back in 1988.

So IMHO the key to a good franchise -- toys, movies, comics, cartoons etc., is the test of time. Are kids going to continue loving them as they get older, or are they more likely to lose interest and "grow out" of them? Many of us were hooked onto Transformers during G1 and have never let go for 30 years. I wonder how many kids are similarly hooked by say Bayverse and becoming lifelong fans... fans of tomorrow, not just fans for today. Yeah sure, kids today may be enthralled by the visual spectacle and excitement of the Bay films, and I agree that they are very visually exciting... but will they continue to be as equally or increasingly engaged as they get older? When I was a kid, I watched the original Star Wars trilogy countless times. As I got older I found myself loving those movies more and more because the stories started to make more sense to me and I was able to engage with the characters, not just the visual spectacle (which still also thrills me too). Visual effects are just a story telling tool, at the end of the day the characters and story are the "meat" that really makes you a long term fan.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/trilogy_zps064b1113.jpg
Likewise with toys, basic engineering and gimmicks can engage you in the short term, but it's the better made toys that can keep you engaged forever. Many of us still love the original Constructicons... I wonder how many kids who played with Combiner Class ROTF Devastator will continue to increasingly love and play with that toy well into their adolescent and adult years.

------------------------------------

P.S.: I think another thing we're more acutely aware of now that we weren't as much as kids is value for money. Children can be more forgiving of a poor toy or badly written movie because they had the toy or ticket purchased for them by someone else (e.g. parent). It's different when you're paying for these things from money that you've earned yourself.

[5FDP]

IMHO we tend to judge Hasbro unfairly and seem to forget that their key market is children and making toys. Adult logic should not apply. We're fortunate that from time to time they cater toward the adult collector.

[Ravagecat]

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?

My opinion is that its at an all time high with some great products available Including Master Piece, Generations and Kreon Mini figures and combiners. There is also a reasonable amount of decent fan fiction floating about in the form of IDW comics and with a 4th motion film coming out in June what more could we want??

What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)

Age and experience would be my two biggest contributors to my opinion. I have been collecting since I was 9/10 years old (when the toyline first came out) and own most of every US/AUS iteration/incarnation of the brand so have been riding the roller coaster of successes and failures along the way for the whole 30 years. IMO The Toys have definitely evolved through out the years, some changes for the better (the introduction of the ball joint in G2 laser rods to improve possibility) and some not so good (the techno organic look of Beast machines). More recently I'm happy for Hasbro to take a step back with some of the complexity built into the more recent TF designs but hate the enlarge legend size idea.

Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded, unable to appreciate just how great things have become for TF fans? Or do you believe that it is simply as the brand has evolved, the fanbase and its expectations have evolved, and after 30 years we should expect a higher level of product - be that toy or media - as a natural matter of course?

As an Australian Collector I would say I've had my share of disappointments with the brand but am by no means ungrateful of jaded. I accept that the brand will evolve and that some ideas work great and others not so great as long as Hasbro/Takara learn from their mistakes. They have tried a myriad of ideas from giving them heads and guns that can transform, making them smaller (micro masters) to making them more pose able (late G2/beast wars), adding shiny metal, giving them minicons, ability to powerlink, making them look like cartoons, increasing the complexity, to combining two types of plastic colours :eek: all to keep fans interested and the brand fresh and I'm grateful for this. My disappointment is not directed at what's being produced or the quality of the toys etc. (for the most part there are some really interesting and fun transformers available) but more at the lack of commitment by Hasbro and Australian retailers to stock all currently available Transformers here on Aussie shelves. Generations is a classic example of this lack of commitment. Retailers just want to make money so seem to care less about what Transformers are on the shelves as long as they sell and Hasbro seems happy to clog our shelves with so much stock from the first wave or two that we rarely or never see anything beyond these initial waves. Retailers then complain about sales being down due on to online shopping :rolleyes: Thank god for online retailers IMO as I can actually look past my disappointments and get some satisfaction in knowing that these toys are not completely out of reach.

[Skullcruncher]

IMHO we tend to judge Hasbro unfairly and seem to forget that their key market is children and making toys. Adult logic should not apply. We're fortunate that from time to time they cater toward the adult collector.

Pretty much this, the older (more experienced) we get, the more harsh we tend to judge them - at the same time we are getting further away from their main target audience. Plus with more life experience the less 'real disappointment' older fans should feel unless they haven't had much experience of life.


As a child, I was never aware of the "hidden racism" in some Transformers stories (i.e. portraying goodness and evil as being 'racial' characteristics of being Autobots & Decepticons, as well as the whole blue/red eye colour physical racial trait)

Wow I've never even thought of, read or seen anyone mention there was some racial characteristics behind transformers eye colour before. This is exactly why I have given up on the general fandom and couldn't care less if transformers faded into oblivion.

[Lint]

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?


I think the identity of the brand is healthy thanks to the films and tv shows. Market awareness would be at an all time high, but my opinion is that the 'general retail' toylines seem to gravitate toward being exploitative rather than contributive to the health and identity of the brand. I appreciate what TT and Hasbro Asia are doing in the Masterpiece/Classicsverse space even if their pricing is a little predatory.



What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)


I don't know how to answer this question... everything?




Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded, unable to appreciate just how great things have become for TF fans? Or do you believe that it is simply as the brand has evolved, the fanbase and its expectations have evolved, and after 30 years we should expect a higher level of product - be that toy or media - as a natural matter of course?


I think that we should not label all fans that are critical of Hasbro/Toys as jaded or ungrateful as at the end of the day, even if we are adults, we are all Hasbro customers too.

While I do recognise that Hasbro have done a lot of great things for the Transformers brand that we can be thankful for, I don't think we have to prostrate ourselves before them whenever they throw us fans a bone. I also don't think it is a crime for us to demand that they do things BETTER, especially when we're buying the stuff.

[Verno]

I'm jaded as all hell, but then my relationship to the franchise for the past 15 years has been that of a spectator for the most part.

As a spectator (going so far as to call myself an outsider), I spend a lot of my time reading and listening to the thoughts of others, and there is no doubting the negative vibe/vein that runs through the fandom as a whole. I'm as guilty of the next person when it comes to having a whinge about something from time to time.

An example of my whnging would be about the paint job on Hasbro's 2006 Beast Wars 10th Anniversary Dinobot. To this very day, I cannot understand how such a pathetic rendering of that figure was released to the market, baring absolutely no resemblance to the CGI model's colour scheme.

But whinging such as this is entirely justified. Hasbro deserves a kick in the ass in such instances -- when they get something so very simple so very, very wrong.

The overuse/repeated use of characters like Optimus Prime and Bumblebee is another frustration that even fans of the movies would have to admit.

Hasbro do occasionally get things right, and must be applauded for that. Generations Rhinox, Waspinator and Rattrap look absolutely sublime. I can only say look however because Hasbro have screwed up their own production of the Waspinator figure, meaning I'm yet to enjoy any of them. Also, the figures aren't stocked by stores here in Australia. It's a total s#!t storm for a casual fan like myself.

But I think the biggest frustration of the franchise as a whole (to me) is the fact that Transformers is Optimus Prime vs Megatron. Every year, every series, every line, it's the same. Even Beast Wars, which was hailed as a new beginning, was led by an Optimus and a Megatron.

I wouldn't want the Transformers franchise to survive another 30 years if it's just going to be those two again and again. Give us some new blood.

[Trent]

But I think the biggest frustration of the franchise as a whole (to me) is the fact that Transformers is Optimus Prime vs Megatron. Every year, every series, every line, it's the same. Even Beast Wars, which was hailed as a new beginning, was led by an Optimus and a Megatron.

I wouldn't want the Transformers franchise to survive another 30 years if it's just going to be those two again and again. Give us some new blood.

I agree with the whole Optimus/Megatron thing. It's getting old. That's why I'm such a fan of Dai Atlas. Not only is he not a Prime, he kicks arse! He is the way a leader of a intergalactic civil war needs to be to win.

[Verno]

I agree with the whole Optimus/Megatron thing. It's getting old. That's why I'm such a fan of Dai Atlas. Not only is he not a Prime, he kicks arse! He is the way a leader of a intergalactic civil war needs to be to win.

It almost seems like Windblade is the first new character in a decade. We have a huge number of established characters, so there seems to be a trepidation to break new ground. Hasbro were so scared of this that they made the public vote on who the new character would be, just so they had some relation to her before she debuted. But the most interesting part is that it wasn't to feature in the main TF property at the time (TF: Prime) but delayed to appear in the comics. Do they not trust the fans?

[Trent]

Do they not trust the fans?

The fandom tried to get Erector into the TF hall of fame. I think it's safe to say that Hasbro doesn't trust us :rolleyes:

[Verno]

The fandom tried to get Erector into the TF hall of fame. I think it's safe to say that Hasbro doesn't trust us :rolleyes:
But where does that derision for Hasbro stem from in the first place if not from Hasbro themselves and their past misdeeds?

And besides, the HoF is laughable anyway. 1st year - Optimus, Megatron, Bumblebee and Starscream. What's the point of it?!

[Magnus]

IMHO we tend to judge Hasbro unfairly and seem to forget that their key market is children and making toys. Adult logic should not apply. We're fortunate that from time to time they cater toward the adult collector.


I think that we should not label all fans that are critical of Hasbro/Toys as jaded or ungrateful as at the end of the day, even if we are adults, we are all Hasbro customers too.

While I do recognise that Hasbro have done a lot of great things for the Transformers brand that we can be thankful for, I don't think we have to prostrate ourselves before them whenever they throw us fans a bone. I also don't think it is a crime for us to demand that they do things BETTER, especially when we're buying the stuff.

This. I agree that we shouldn't have to accept every single thing that Hasbro sends our way, but at the same time, I can't help but feel that more than a few adult members of the Transformers fandom have a sense of self-entitlement, as if Hasbro exists solely to make them collectibles.



I agree with the whole Optimus/Megatron thing. It's getting old. That's why I'm such a fan of Dai Atlas. Not only is he not a Prime, he kicks arse! He is the way a leader of a intergalactic civil war needs to be to win.

It would make for an interesting shake-up. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I can easily imagine some fans protesting such a change if it were to happen now - "Transformers HAS to have Optimus vs. Megatron!!!!11111!!!!one!!1111 What blasphemy is this?!"

I say this because I find the (adult) fandom is highly resistant to change, at least at first - I still remember the uproar when movieverse Optimus was revealed to be a long-nosed truck instead of a flat-nosed one, and back in the '90s, there was 'TRUKK NOT MUNKY'.

[MayzaPrime]

I am actually pretty excited about the future of Transformers.

The Masterpiece series that Takara is currently releasing are just the best Transformers I have (and I have almost 1700).

The new line of Generations are really good, in fact I have bought multiples of particular figures which I dont normally do unless they are a repaint/retool.

With the 3 more movies to come, which will bring Billions of $$. Hasbro will be able to take more risks, like hopefully Titan class Trypticon :D.

Could Hasbro do things better? Yes they could, improved distribution, Headmasters :D, would be a good start.

[Paulbot]

I'm nearly mid-30 and TFs have been part of my life non-stop since I was 6. I find things to like and I find things to dislike. Such a long time has created an intense brand loyalty for me. so when I dislike something it's usually because I feel potential has been missed, but it's not the end of the world; I'll just wait for the next incarnation, the next toyline/comic/cartoon/movie whatever it is.

I think it's quite easy to focus on the jaded/negative stuff that fans talk about and become disillusioned with fandom and not see the stuff that's liked. When I've been at fan meets (in Vic, NSW, QLD and BotCon) the negativity that comes out of the keyboards doesn't come out of mouths, and if it does it's pretty well deserved.

Unfortunately it's a very common Internet thing to complain more than praise. The Internet was a great boost and rallying point for TF fans (I'm thinking back to the A.T.T. days) but the online complaint culture goes beyond TF fandom.

[GoktimusPrime]

Whenever I review anything, I always start with mentioning the pros first, to make myself consider the positives before discussing any negatives, then finally I draw a conclusion. :)


Wow I've never even thought of, read or seen anyone mention there was some racial characteristics behind transformers eye colour before. This is exactly why I have given up on the general fandom and couldn't care less if transformers faded into oblivion.
It's not a fandom thing. It's called the Hidden Curriculum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_curriculum) and is widely recognised when discussing/evaluating children's literature. It's something that was I personally examined when I was doing Ethics in Education during my post graduate studies. A cartoon series targeted at children is a form of children's literature (film literature), and all children's literature (and indeed anything else that we present to children) is susceptible of having a hidden curriculum. It's something that everyone who is communicating with children needs to be mindful of, whether you're an author, teacher, parent etc. It's often interesting to see what the audience takes despite authorial intent.
e.g. Lord of the Rings functions as an allegory for the First World War, despite Tolkien having explicitly stated that it was never intended to be.

[Trent]

I think that the issue is not the negativity in the fandom as such, but more that as some fans get older, their sense of entitlement goes through the roof. Then you get a lot of negativity because of attitude like "This toy is crap because of reason x. They should have done it like y." And at the core of that the toy is crap because it's not what that particular person wanted. Examples I have seen:

"That toy is crap because it's not the right scale." Talking about every TF ever.

"That toy is crap because the stripes are different to the cartoon." Talking about MP Wheeljack.

"That toy is crap because it's the wrong shade of blue." Talking about KFC Ultra Magnus

"That toy is crap because it doesn't have landing gear." Talking about Daca Toys Kronos

"That toy is crap because the face sculpt is too fat." Talking about MP Smokecreen

"That toy is crap because it's too short." Talking about MP Bumblebee

"That toy is crap because it's not chibi." Talking again about MP Bumblebee.

See my point? What they're really saying is "that toy is crap because it's not exactly what _I_ want." :rolleyes:


Keep in mind here that I am not having a to at people that point out a feature that they are disappointed with on a toy. I understand some scale comments and the chibi thing with MP BB and so forth. And I also understand that this is an expensive hobby and you are allowed to be fussy over a $80 plus toy. I'm talking about the type of entitlement that is far beyond what an average person would consider reasonable. ;)

[Shirokaze]

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?

Movies - While the movies have advanced the brand in leaps and bounds when it comes to recognition and have accomplished some fantastic big-screen feats, it seems they have also become notorious. These days I can't seem to get through a conversation about Transformers with anyone in the 20-30yo age bracket without the mention of how terrible the movies are.
As people that have an emotional investment in the franchise, I think it's easy for us to become critical about how Transformers is being handled when all you hear from the general public is negativity.

Toys - In this case, I feel that every step Hasbro takes forward, they take two back.

Characters we thought we'd never see/strong collector focus via Generations: Poor distribution to anywhere but the US, generally terrible paint apps.

Expansion into many different lines: reduced figure size, reduced figure quality.

The list goes on :(

TV - I think TF Prime did pretty well at telling a story and hitting it's target demographic. Bring on the Bumblebee Prime :)

What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)
Again the declining quality and shrinking of figures is getting me down. This combined with growing up and the realisation of the value of money, I no longer feel like I'm getting my money's worth when I buy a figure.

Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded?
Yeah definitely. When you care about something and have no control over what happens to it, all we can really do is express ourselves on forums and a lot of them time, it's going to come across as ungrateful.

[Lint]

This. I agree that we shouldn't have to accept every single thing that Hasbro sends our way, but at the same time, I can't help but feel that more than a few adult members of the Transformers fandom have a sense of self-entitlement, as if Hasbro exists solely to make them collectibles.


I'm probably not speaking on behalf of everyone here, but one of the reasons why I am critical of the modern transforming figures is that I want kids to experience the same joy of high quality Transformer figures when I was a kid. I often buy transformers as gifts for young relatives or children of friends and it does make me sad when my gifts get rightly sidelined in preference of higher quality toys.



I say this because I find the (adult) fandom is highly resistant to change, at least at first - I still remember the uproar when movieverse Optimus was revealed to be a long-nosed truck instead of a flat-nosed one, and back in the '90s, there was 'TRUKK NOT MUNKY'.

My biggest problem with movieverse Optimus is not just aesthetics. They've taken an extremely noble and generally good role model of a character and turned him into an extremely destructivemmerciless killing machine that only sees issues in black and white and then dared to sell this guy to children.

I have to admit I was a TRUKK not MUNKYer back in the 90's but I've come to see and respect them both as separate characters.

[RageOnTheRoads]

Unfortunately it's a very common Internet thing to complain more than praise. The Internet was a great boost and rallying point for TF fans (I'm thinking back to the A.T.T. days) but the online complaint culture goes beyond TF fandom.

This.

While I've loved my transformers since the late 80's; I've always been more of a fringe dweller when it came to the fandom culture, popping in and out between G1, Beast Wars, Beast Machines and the new movies. It's odd because the attitude of the people I talk with doesn't seem to align with the cultural image of constantly whining TF fans. Whenever I talk with other fans and collectors they're always enthusiastic about the brand and so willing to show newbies and less hardcore members the ins and outs of the franchise.

With the exception of a few extremists most of the complaints that come from the fandom seem to me to be pretty valid. I've heard kids complain that their transformers break or fall apart too easily or "it's not like the Optimus on the tv." One young fan I know blew a months worth of pocket money on a figure only for it to break the first time he transformed it. He was one unhappy little chap. So there is a degree of convergence between collector complaints and the key demographics complaints.

As for me, I loved and still enjoy a lot of the tf universe like the current comic lines, TF prime, the recent games. And while I find the price of one or two TF's a bit extreme, on the whole the price and quality control of Has/tak toys are much more reasonable than many other toys and collectibles I collect.

My biggest pet peeve with the TF franchise- the 2 and 3 Bayverse movies- has more to do with my experiences in the entertainment industry and only a little to do with my position as a tf fan. It didn't stop me from collecting a fare few movie toys though.:o

[Magnus]

I'm probably not speaking on behalf of everyone here, but one of the reasons why I am critical of the modern transforming figures is that I want kids to experience the same joy of high quality Transformer figures when I was a kid. I often buy transformers as gifts for young relatives or children of friends and it does make me sad when my gifts get rightly sidelined in preference of higher quality toys.

Out of curiosity, and I'm not having a go at you here, I genuinely want to know, how do you grade TFs on quality? QC, or is it something else?


My biggest problem with movieverse Optimus is not just aesthetics. They've taken an extremely noble and generally good role model of a character and turned him into an extremely destructivemmerciless killing machine that only sees issues in black and white and then dared to sell this guy to children.

I have to admit I was a TRUKK not MUNKYer back in the 90's but I've come to see and respect them both as separate characters.

I can understand why some people would feel that way about movieverse Optimus from a character point of view (and it's a whole discussion topic on its own), but my point was that it seems like fans were getting upset over something that, in hindsight, is so trivial (actually, I think the flame paint job was a bigger 'controversy'), because it seems like they're resistant to change - this was in the context of every new series seemingly being Optimus vs. Megatron. Then again, it may be, as has been suggested, that the most vocal fans online are the ones who do a lot of complaining, and there may be a 'silent majority' who are more optimistic or have adopted a 'wait-and-see' attitude.

[GoktimusPrime]

With the exception of a few extremists most of the complaints that come from the fandom seem to me to be pretty valid.
^This. :)

We fans have been continually obsessed with Transformers for thirty years. I'd like to think that we do have some valid opinions about this franchise. Yes, there are some people who do make unreasonable and sometimes downright silly demands^suggestions, and on the other end of the scale there are some people who are far too generous in their appraisals. Your typical YouTube toy reviewer is like this... somehow every toy they review is the best thing evah and deserves three thumbs up. Reminds me of when Homer Simpson became a food critic and lost all credibility because he gave every restaurant rave reviews and was never critical or evaluative. ;) But most fans do have reasonably valid views -- they will laud a toy that's well done, and criticise toys that aren't so good. Or more often than not, look at the pros and cons of various toys. Most Transformers aren't perfect nor complete rubbish, they tend to have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's in examining these aspects that we tend to conclude which toys are better or worse than others.

Part of what Hasbro should be doing is paying attention to fan's comments. Yes, it can be tiresome to trawl through all the noise and filter out the valid comments from the invalid ones. IMO an arguably more effective way to do it is what TakaraTOMY does and just create a series of online surveys (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=201) that ask consumers specific questions about the toy, and most questions are multiple choice with some having the option to type in additional comments. You would have a set of generic questions, e.g. asking about consumer's demographics, where they bought the toy, what they thought about the price, packaging etc., then you have a set of more specific questions that's more pertinent to that actual toy. e.g. on the Masterpiece surveys include a question asking you to vote on which characters you'd like to see made as future MPs, and you can also nominate one yourself if the choice isn't there. I think that would make it a lot easier and expedient to gain feedback rather than lurking on forums and social media sights to trawl through so many comments and having to pick and choose which ones are worth paying attention to.

Examples of survey questions...
Generic→http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Takara%20survey/takarasurvey11.jpg G1 reissues→http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Takara%20survey/jaydisc_takarasurvey1.jpg
MP Nissans→http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Takara%20survey/takaratomysurvey_mp6_zpsc63d4d2a.jpg

[STL]

I think the identity of the brand is healthy thanks to the films and tv shows. Market awareness would be at an all time high, but my opinion is that the 'general retail' toylines seem to gravitate toward being exploitative rather than contributive to the health and identity of the brand. I appreciate what TT and Hasbro Asia are doing in the Masterpiece/Classicsverse space even if their pricing is a little predatory.

Completely in agreement with this. More eloquently put then I would've said.


I don't know how to answer this question... everything?

- The quality of other collector orientated toylines (Lego, Macross, Play Arts)
- The wide gap between when Hasbro/Takara tries and when it doesn't
- Space: moving into an apartment has been awesome but the limitation of space has forced me to be far more discerning compared to when I first started collecting again. When space is a premium, you need to weigh up what you have room for and what you don't. Not everything can be displayed and kept. More so when you have other hobbies like Halo Mega Bloks, Lego lines. I've had to focus and decide what I want to collect. Even when I see something at a great price (say a Marvel/DC/Game statue), it takes discipline and focus to say no.


I think that we should not label all fans that are critical of Hasbro/Toys as jaded or ungrateful as at the end of the day, even if we are adults, we are all Hasbro customers too.

While I do recognise that Hasbro have done a lot of great things for the Transformers brand that we can be thankful for, I don't think we have to prostrate ourselves before them whenever they throw us fans a bone. I also don't think it is a crime for us to demand that they do things BETTER, especially when we're buying the stuff.

Again, better than I could've said it myself.

[Lint]

Out of curiosity, and I'm not having a go at you here, I genuinely want to know, how do you grade TFs on quality? QC, or is it something else?


I don't really have a concrete checklist, I sort of pick one up and find things that either irk or delight me. Things that generally annoy me are floppy joints, cheaping out on paint apps, poor balance and poor articulation (moreso stuff that could have easily been implemented but wasn't). Things that impress me are great poseability, satisfying transformations, cool looking weapons, well integrated gimmicks, really good looking alt modes and beautiful decos. Sometimes impressing on multiple points makes me forgive major shortcomings (like Generations Rhinox's statuesque alt mode :p)




I can understand why some people would feel that way about movieverse Optimus from a character point of view (and it's a whole discussion topic on its own), but my point was that it seems like fans were getting upset over something that, in hindsight, is so trivial (actually, I think the flame paint job was a bigger 'controversy'), because it seems like they're resistant to change - this was in the context of every new series seemingly being Optimus vs. Megatron. Then again, it may be, as has been suggested, that the most vocal fans online are the ones who do a lot of complaining, and there may be a 'silent majority' who are more optimistic or have adopted a 'wait-and-see' attitude.

The flames are not only easy to pick on but are a good metaphor for how the movieverse is treating the brand. You can sort of imagine a bunch of people sitting in a boardroom brainstorming ways to make the Transformers brand more exciting then some guy suggests "you know whats sexy? Flames are sexy" then the one in charge is like "Flames?! Thats brilliant Anderson! Betsy, send this note to the design team right away!"

Even more telling is the way they just pick up a bunch of Transformer names and assign them to soulless throwaway characters they have just 'created' to fill certain visual setpieces or participate in scripted 'scenes' instead of leveraging off characters that have been developed in existing fiction. The first movie wasn't too bad, but it just escalated from there. Think Dino, Sideswipe, Twins, Shockwave, Que heck theres probably a bunch more I've forgotten. Some of these guys a really great characters in other fiction (and are fleshed out much better in movieverse comics) but none of this makes it into the movieverse films. None.

Given past behaviours, I really can't be optimistic at all about the upcoming movie. If it turns out to be a fantastic film then great but at the moment all I'm hoping for is for it to not be horrible and maybe get some good toys out of it down the line.

[requiemau88]

As a fan who is in his mid 20's I grew up watching a mix of G1 (with Cybertron cube on cheez TV) and beast wars at the same time, for me transformers has always been an evolving concept, case in point I usually put away an older line when I need space for a new. I've grown up with transformers (particularly the cartoons) as a constant in my life, I genuinely don't look at the last couple of series and compare them, I just enjoy them as they come. But don't get me wrong, some fiction I enjoy more then others.

As a person I am generally an optimistic bloke, and that transfers to most aspects of my life, however I have noticed that the older I get (more life experience) I do start to lose appreciation for some things. My biggest concern at the moment is that I have bought all that I can, not because of money issues (not including importing or filling in the gaps shopping online) but when I go to a store and look for TF's, nothing is new. For longest time this started to annoy me until my partner pointed out "of course there's nothing for you, every time a new wave comes in you buy every single figure". Years ago when I started working I could only picked up one or two, yet in comparison one point last year I had to go grab a trolley when the generations line came in and I managed to get the combiners and ultra magnus wave in one hit, and I didn't even blink an eye at the price. I've come to be annoyed at the stupidest at things, it was an eye opener for, and sometimes I still get a little annoyed.

So that was my little bit ... Now for the questions

What is your current opinion of the current state of Transformers in all its myriad forms?

Its only going to get better, and that's not to say its not good now, but realistically companies are starting to look at quality instead of quantity. I look at upcoming movie and think " this is going be be good ", I look forward to Dark Cybertron (I only buy trades), the toys are coming out look awesome, it will be my mission to find all the dinobots as well as more generations. The cartoon? I look forward to it as will hopefully build on an exsisting universe and be able to branch out introduce 'fringe' characters to a new audience.

What do you believe has influenced your current opinion of the Transformers brand? (age, experience etc)

I think the toy line is still the main thing that influences me with regards to transformers. I may be 25, have a stress full job, mortgage, car repayments, credit card debt and bills, but I still take time (every day I'm home) and I still play with my toys, I could be watching a movie and I'll go grab a toy and just play with it. Can't tell you why I still do it, I just do.

Do you believe that either you yourself, or the fanbase taken as a whole, has become somewhat ungrateful and jaded, unable to appreciate just how great things have become for TF fans? Or do you believe that it is simply as the brand has evolved, the fanbase and its expectations have evolved, and after 30 years we should expect a higher level of product - be that toy or media - as a natural matter of course?

Myself jaded? Getting there, fan base, too general a question. Some die hard g1'ers are happy as hell at the moment due to the masterpiece and generations, yet a few years ago they were jumping up and down. There's a few comic people who are quite happy due Regeneration and MTMTE. I think quite a bit of noise is coming from the Beast Hunters line, the aligned community at people who have already written off the new 'Bayformer' movie.

With upcoming content, there's always the expectations that things are going to always get better, better toys, better shows, better comics. But honestly? I look at the majority of generations and think 'if they kept pumping out these toys I'd keep buying them'. I'm not expecting any new revolutionary transforming technology. We hit that ball joints and studier plastics. MTMTE is my actual favourite comic, and not just saying that cause I'm a TF fan, I also have a decent DC and Marvel library, its entertaining to read.

Apologies if I've made mistakes, this has all been typed out on my phone (time to give my thumbs a rest)

[BigTransformerTrev]

I'm really happy this thread has provided a good discussion of the TF brand in general :)


What I'm hearing (to grossly simplify the last 3 pages of comments) is:


* Much of the negativity about TF's lives on the internet and perhaps not so much in the 'real' world, making the TF fanbase perhaps look more negative than it really is
* Age does play a part in peoples perceptions of the brand, but as well as the experience of watching the brand for 30 years, age also brings along factors (such as evaluating value for money) which kids don't really consider.
* Adults are a lot more realistic about the brand and look at it with a critical eye rather than the wide eyed optimism of youth
* There are lots of positive and negatives to be seen in all facets of the brand (movies, toys etc)
* People are pretty positive about the TF comics and cartoons that have come out in the last few years on the whole
* You can make evaluations about the fanbase but there is no sweeping generalizations that can take the entire fanbase as a whole into account
* The future of the brand is viewed relatively optimistically
* The brand has done well to cater to the old school (G1) fans as well as new fans. However it is questioned whether the current TF facets such as the movies are of a high enough quality to produce new life-long fans.
* Hasbro is viewed neither as a company which makes constant mistakes or has constant successes, but rather as a company which tries and often but certainly not always succeeds with it's treatment of the TF brand.
* The marketing of TF toys is often flawed with it's releases and is sometimes exploitative with it's pricing and constant slow decline in the size of figures provided (deluxes getting smaller etc)
* New directions for the lore would be welcome (not just 'Op vs Megs' yet again)
* Fans tend to judge a toy on their own personal criteria of what makes a good figure, though many of their opinions line up with each other
* Fans (espeically the long time fans) opinions and criticisms of figures are often valid rather than overly critical
* Australians are often not catered to with lines of figures they desire, which can lead to negativity from fans in this region of the world


Really good discussion, a lot of factors I did not consider when I first came up with the thread and in some ways has helped me re-evaluate the way I was examining my own opinion of the brand (I'm not negative - it's just that I'm an adult now!) :)

[Jay-Tron]

I believe adult fans easily become too fussy, jaded and nitpick everything simply because as adults we sometimes expect too much from a simple toy franchise. Us adults have our favourite time in the Transformers timeline and we can also enjoy (or not enjoy) other areas of the Transformers timeline/franchise without it corrupting what it is we love about Transformers as a whole.

For example, when the first live action TF movie came out I, like a lot of others didn't have the best opinion concerning the movie because it didn't look G1 enough or it just seemed too different to what I thought a live action Transformers movie and franchise should be and look like. But I've come to accept the live action franchise for what it is and these days am very happy that it's so none G1 in style. Simply because it being different from G1 takes nothing away from what G1 is for me. The movie franchise is its own beast and it's great for the Transformers universe.

I think being ok with different parts of the Transformers franchise going in different directions from the G1 style (ie: live action movies) will help in not becoming too jaded as a Transformer fan.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I must admit, I'm seeing a lot of chatter at the moment that is making me lean back towards the idea that a great deal of Transformer Fandom is indeed jaded to at least certain parts of the franchise.

In particular the chat I've seen on other sites and quite a bit on this one in regards to the upcoming Transformers: Devastation game vs Transformers 5.


Lots of the comments about the Devastation game go like this:
*Well it's the same makers of Dynasty Warriors and they were not great games so hopefully this is better.
*The gameplay looks pretty shallow but I'll reserve judgement
*Don't think this is going to shape up compared to the likes of FOC

These are fairly negative comments, but at the same time people are expressing opinions on what may happen. They are not definitive statements.


Now take some of the comments about Transformers 5.
*It's going to be all humans and cheap jokes
*It's going to be nothing but product placements and really crap writing
*Michael Bay is directing and the writer has done stuff like Batman and Robin. I'm not gonna go see it - it's gonna suck!

Now this is a movie that has barely begun to be written yet, yet people are making definitive statements about how it is going to be bad. They are not using words like 'probably', they are using phrases such as 'it's going to be'.


I can understand if people didn't like the last few flicks that they don't hold high hopes for the upcoming one. But bagging it out and saying that it is going to be bad two years in advance seems to be the definitive version of a jaded fan to me. I'm not looking forward to the next two years worth of seeing people bitching about a movie before it's even made. :rolleyes:

[kurdt_the_goat]

Shouldn't be listening to anyone who mistakenly thinks it's the same makers as Dynasty Warriors, that's for sure!

[prjkt]

When it comes to the games/movies, I try to go in with no expectations - and take them on entertainment value, rather than as the core of the franchise - Rise of the Dark Spark was an exception there - having enjoyed FOC enough that it got me into collecting as an adult, I was hoping for more of the same, and I sort of got it - but the earth levels were a little disappointing and the game was a little too much of "enter area, defeat x number of waves, move on and repeat" - something I don't remember the two High Moon games having.
With Devastation I'm simple expecting to be able to run around and punch other bots, and have a fun time doing so, so the ~$35 (half what I paid for RotDS) cost I paid to order would be worth it.

Live action movies? Big explosions, giant robots and stupid action is all I come to expect nowadays, anything more is a bonus - I have the comics for storyline.

And finally the toys - sure the current CW figures aren't as complicated/poseable as some of the earlier Classics/Generations figures, but they're quicker to transform, combine and look damn cool - fiddling with releases like Kup, Galvatron and many of the bigger movie-verse figures can take a while to get between modes - something some of the target audience may struggle with...

[Paulbot]

We're living in a golden age for Masterpeice toys (more releases and more styles than we'd have predicted) but quick let's complain about each toy based on silhouette/prototype/first pics months before the toy is actually available. I don't think that's discerning, I think it's somewhere between jaded and the today's culture of get-on-the-Interent-and-judge-everything.

[drifand]

Shouldn't be listening to anyone who mistakenly thinks it's the same makers as Dynasty Warriors, that's for sure!

Hell yeah I played almost all the mainstream Dynesty Warriors.

[drifand]

Now take some of the comments about Transformers 5.
*It's going to be all humans and cheap jokes
*It's going to be nothing but product placements and really crap writing
*Michael Bay is directing and the writer has done stuff like Batman and Robin. I'm not gonna go see it - it's gonna suck!

Now this is a movie that has barely begun to be written yet, yet people are making definitive statements about how it is going to be bad. They are not using words like 'probably', they are using phrases such as 'it's going to be'.


I can understand if people didn't like the last few flicks that they don't hold high hopes for the upcoming one. But bagging it out and saying that it is going to be bad two years in advance seems to be the definitive version of a jaded fan to me. I'm not looking forward to the next two years worth of seeing people bitching about a movie before it's even made. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]


Haha, blame it on the director who doesn't want to walk away. It will continue to bitch till someone new takes over copy that. < from here it gets either Really? Bay was better or wow this is sure a whole better than what it was.

Dont blame people, you should know better "once bitten twice shy" "second time? shame on you, third time ? Are you nuts? 4th time > lol, 5th?

[drifand]

We're living in a golden age for Masterpeice toys (more releases and more styles than we'd have predicted) but quick let's complain about each toy based on silhouette/prototype/first pics months before the toy is actually available. I don't think that's discerning, I think it's somewhere between jaded and the today's culture of get-on-the-Interent-and-judge-everything.

The current Shockwave and all the other mps have always have a Not G1 toy accurate colours and same old toon accuracy colours as well. Which was why I suggested Takara to split the entire mp line and make more bucks.

[Sinnertwin]

You'd have to be pretty special if you've seen all 4 of the previous movies directed by Bay, hated them and still lined up to watch number 5.
I mean really, really special. Either that, or you're a little girl that has FOMO.

[drifand]

You'd have to be pretty special if you've seen all 4 of the previous movies directed by Bay, hated them and still lined up to watch number 5.
I mean really, really special. Either that, or you're a little girl that has FOMO.

I didnt line up to watch any of them. :)
I do watch them. hence never went to the cinemas specially for it.

As I said, I do watch Bay movies, good or bad. :)

Pretty sure I have seen a few members who has not even watch the 4th one.

[Sinnertwin]

I didnt line up to watch any of them. :)
I do watch them. hence never went to the cinemas specially for it.

As I said, I do watch Bay movies, good or bad. :)

Pretty sure I have seen a few members who has not even watch the 4th one.

Where you've seen them doesn't make you any less special.
If you don't like getting punched in the face, don't step into the boxing ring.

[drifand]

Where you've seen them doesn't make you any less special.
If you don't like getting punched in the face, don't step into the boxing ring.

Which is why we are spectators, and not the boxers we yell at the boxer. same goes for the movie we are not in it, we watch it. You get criticised if you dont box well.
You get criticised if your movie sucks, you also get praises as well. I don't have any issues with anyone here who praises the movie and say Bay is great, thats their opinion. This doesn't mean many cant criticise a movie that looks like going to its doom before is being made.

Nobody said anything about special. If the movie sucks and the pattern is going to be suck to be, then get ready for that. Anything new, is a surprise.

I say one thing, when Batman begins (Chris Nolan) first have their shots on the screen, I went "Not another boring Batman". I was happy to be proven wrong, it was good imo.

One thing for sure, I have not bought any movie tf toys. The fact that anyone who have seen them, they are entitled to state their opinion about how it went and what they wish to see what went wrong and what they liked. It is not new to see people criticising a movie, toy before it is even made.

[Sinnertwin]

Which is why we are spectators, and not the boxers we yell at the boxer. same goes for the movie we are not in it, we watch it. You get criticised if you dont box well.
You get criticised if your movie sucks, you also get praises as well. I don't have any issues with anyone here who praises the movie and say Bay is great, thats their opinion. This doesn't mean many cant criticise a movie that looks like going to its doom before is being made.

Nobody said anything about special. If the movie sucks and the pattern is going to be suck to be, then get ready for that. Anything new, is a surprise.

I say one thing, when Batman begins (Chris Nolan) first have their shots on the screen, I went "Not another boring Batman". I was happy to be proven wrong, it was good imo.

One thing for sure, I have not bought any movie tf toys.

We're not talking about movie toys.
Are you all there? What part of if you've hated the first 4 movies by Bay, save everyone the time & simply don't watch the 5th are you not getting?

[drifand]

We're not talking about movie toys.
Are you all there? What part of if you've hated the first 4 movies by Bay, save everyone the time & simply don't watch the 5th are you not getting?


I don't know, why can't I say what I want about the 5th movie? What makes you so special?

What do I need to get? Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot watch or what to say about a TF movie?

"TOYS" "Movie" "Hasbro" was part of this thread discussion, Hello? You There?

[Sinnertwin]

I don't know, why can't I say what I want about the 5th movie? What makes you so special?

What do I need to get? Who are you to tell me what I can and cannot watch or what to say about a TF movie?

"TOYS" was part of this thread discussion, Hello? You There?

The discussion we're currently having is about the movies, to which yourself replied to Trev's comment about, which led us here, Einstein.

And I'm not telling you what you can or can't watch, because you clearly have comprehension issues.

Let me reiterate it one last time. If you have not enjoyed Bay's last 4 movies & are making it a point to trash it before there has been a single line of script even written down, then #5 clearly isn't the movie for you.

[drifand]

The discussion we're currently having is about the movies, to which yourself replied to Trev's comment about, which led us here, Einstein.

And I'm not telling you what you can or can't watch, because you clearly have comprehension issues.

Let me reiterate it one last time. If you have not enjoyed Bay's last 4 movies & are making it a point to trash it before there has been a single line of script even written down, then #5 clearly isn't the movie for you.

Again what gives you the right? I didn't trash all 4 movies?
Are you crying like a girl because someone complains? OMG, get over it already.

[Sinnertwin]

Again what gives you the right? I didn't trash all 4 movies?
Are you crying like a girl because someone complains? OMG, get over it already.

Crying like a little girl?
The MP's don't have rubber tyres or die cast. Would you like a tissue?

[drifand]

Wow! I said that as a joke about the rubber tyres.

Why so serious? Is Bay your Father thats why you take everything so serious? Holly crap.

[Sinnertwin]

Wow! I said that as a joke about the rubber tyres.

Why so serious? Is Bay your Father thats why you take everything so serious? Holly crap.

A joke that you've told on every MP car thread.
Right.
& no, Bay isn't my father. I know who mine is.

[drifand]

A joke that you've told on every MP car thread.
Right.
& no, Bay isn't my father. I know who mine is.

For a serious discussion, Yes I did complaint about plastic wheels as we were referring to a premium product. Yes, I did indicate about diecast as well. And I did indcate I was over it too.

You seem to be someone who can tell people off what you ONLY feel is right in your opinion. You pretty much have to suck it up when I am still on here. As far as what people say here on the threads if you sick of hearing it you can change your settings in your User CP. For me, I am happy to hear good and bad of anything here.

peace out. I don't waste my time with people who only view one sided opinions.

[Magnus]

I must admit, I'm seeing a lot of chatter at the moment that is making me lean back towards the idea that a great deal of Transformer Fandom is indeed jaded to at least certain parts of the franchise.

Now take some of the comments about Transformers 5.
*It's going to be all humans and cheap jokes
*It's going to be nothing but product placements and really crap writing
*Michael Bay is directing and the writer has done stuff like Batman and Robin. I'm not gonna go see it - it's gonna suck!

Now this is a movie that has barely begun to be written yet, yet people are making definitive statements about how it is going to be bad. They are not using words like 'probably', they are using phrases such as 'it's going to be'.


I can understand if people didn't like the last few flicks that they don't hold high hopes for the upcoming one. But bagging it out and saying that it is going to be bad two years in advance seems to be the definitive version of a jaded fan to me. I'm not looking forward to the next two years worth of seeing people bitching about a movie before it's even made. :rolleyes:

With that 'degree' of certainty, you'd think they've already seen the finished movie!

On referencing Batman and Robin: I can't help but think that's a deliberate attempt to frame the movie negatively, as you mentioned. Never mind the fact that the director, Joel Schumacher, has stated that the studio wanted campier, more 'kid-friendly' movies after the Tim Burton movies.

I suspect the conversation would be different if people said it was "the guy who wrote A Beautiful Mind, or I, Robot, or The Da Vinci Code.


We're living in a golden age for Masterpeice toys (more releases and more styles than we'd have predicted) but quick let's complain about each toy based on silhouette/prototype/first pics months before the toy is actually available. I don't think that's discerning, I think it's somewhere between jaded and the today's culture of get-on-the-Interent-and-judge-everything.

I noticed that with comments on MP Ironhide's hip panels and visible tyres in robot mode - it seems like some people are trying to find something to complain about. I'm impressed that we have a robot as clean as it is, considering the character model.



Haha, blame it on the director who doesn't want to walk away. It will continue to bitch till someone new takes over copy that. < from here it gets either Really? Bay was better or wow this is sure a whole better than what it was.

Dont blame people, you should know better "once bitten twice shy" "second time? shame on you, third time ? Are you nuts? 4th time > lol, 5th?

I still maintain that Michael Bay can deliver good movies with the right scripts - look at his non-Transformers movies - but that's another discussion.

[UltimateGalvatron]

Hey guys I think we need to tone it down a bit.

[drifand]

I still maintain that Michael Bay can deliver good movies with the right scripts - look at his non-Transformers movies - but that's another discussion.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this. and in fact I thought TF1 and 2 were still okay. For me TF3 and 4 are all over the place.

Other Bay movies and been great and even some TV production ones.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Hey guys I think we need to tone it down a bit.

Yeah the first 3 pages of the thread are a lot more productive. Buts it's my fault for bringing up the TF5 thing :o. I just found it the perfect example of a jaded TF fan that people were complaining about TF5 before, as others and myself have stated, there is barely a line of script written and the flick is still two years away

However I have recently proved that I am no exception :o I was complaining from preliminary pics that MP Shockwave was too small compared to other MP Con leaders. I was very glad that newly surfaced pics have proved me wrong :)

[UltimateGalvatron]

Yeah the first 3 pages of the thread are a lot more productive.

I concur.

"But I probably didn't understand the situation!" Lol :p

[Sinnertwin]

For a serious discussion, Yes I did complaint about plastic wheels as we were referring to a premium product. Yes, I did indicate about diecast as well. And I did indcate I was over it too.

You seem to be someone who can tell people off what you ONLY feel is right in your opinion. You pretty much have to suck it up when I am still on here. As far as what people say here on the threads if you sick of hearing it you can change your settings in your User CP. For me, I am happy to hear good and bad of anything here.

peace out. I don't waste my time with people who only view one sided opinions.

And you'll have to do exactly the same.
I'll be seeing you around, champ.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Ok, so it all stops I will respectfully remind people of the original topic of the thread:

Are we becoming jaded and ungrateful as a fanbase? Or are we simply more discerning consumers of products and patrons of the franchise?’


To bring it back even further to the original point of the thread I’ll pose a question - Out of interest Drifand, do you consider yourself a Discerning or a Jaded TF fan?

The dictionary definition of Jaded:

Bored or lacking enthusiasm, typically after having had too much of something. Made dull, apathetic, or cynical by experience or by surfeit.

I think the following quote sums up that attitude nicely:


This doesn't mean many cant criticise a movie that looks like going to its doom before is being made.
Nobody said anything about special. If the movie sucks and the pattern is going to be suck to be, then get ready for that.
One thing for sure, I have not bought any movie tf toys. The fact that anyone who have seen them, they are entitled to state their opinion about how it went and what they wish to see what went wrong and what they liked. It is not new to see people criticising a movie, toy before it is even made.

If we go by the dictionary definition of Jaded then your constant criticism of different facets of the TF brand (the movies, the Legends game etc) have certainly shown cynicism. And the fact that you have been going on about how you hated the last movie well over a year after it was released and are now in many different threads are going on about how it’s (in your opinion) a fact that the next movie is going to suck a good two years before it’s even made has proven quite dull. Seems to be quite jaded overall.

I have no wish to single you out, but you seem to have chosen to make yourself the poster boy for this slant on the TF world which is why I am directing these queries to you.

I am interested in your response in how you view yourself as a Transformers fan – in other words discerning or jaded. I will ask, since I have had problems with debates with you in the past in other threads, that you stick to the topic please. If your responses are just going to be “The last movies sucked and the next one will suck” rather than pertaining to the topic at hand then perhaps take those particular rants elsewhere rather than derailing this thread further. Maybe you could start your own thread in the Movies section “Why I hated the movies and Bay and why the next one will suck” so you can put voice to your feelings there. Otherwise it will be interesting to get your perspective on this overall topic. :)

[1orion2many]

First time back in a long time and virtually the first thread I read has a pair of cranky old farts arguing on it and that's not a reference to age more a reference to the way you 2 were acting (I don't need to tell you which 2 do I:rolleyes:)

[Trent]

First time back in a long time and virtually the first thread I read has a pair of cranky old farts arguing on it and that's not a reference to age more a reference to the way you 2 were acting (I don't need to tell you which 2 do I:rolleyes:)

Welcome back! It's like you never left!!!:D

:p

[1orion2many]

Yes I'm back after a forced life change;):D

[liegeprime]

Yes I'm back after a forced life change;):D

belated happy birthday by the way you old fart heheheheh...

[1orion2many]

belated happy birthday by the way you old fart heheheheh...

You too if I remember rightly:confused: and I'm not joking about that:( My memory is partly shot, Mostly not though lol:D

I'm actually very happy to celebrate another year, I'll never complain again about getting older as the alternative (Until science makes a youth serum) is a very unpleasant thought ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/meme_imjustheretoreadthecomments_zps18fhlhf6.jpg

[drifand]

Well Trev I am not really a tf fan fan.

Straight to your answer I am discerning . You won't find me wondering in other tf toy thread other than mp line and just a handful of selection tf.

I do hate the fact that it feels like I am not entitled or welcome to speak of a negative side of a toy or anything in fact in discussion. For me taking both positive and negative comments make me have a broader idea about what is good about the toy and what is not so good.

Simply put if TT designed a bad looking Optimus prime, I will say it up front. I would not care if anyone here comes and say"how can you say that?" That's Optimus prime! Sorry I don't buy it just because this is a tf forum.

I have particular concerns with mp line and if they don't match up to my liking , I will spend money on other things and will not be a tf toy.

When people here do ask " how do you know that the movie suck before is even out in two years time" I didn't say it suck. I said is a skip for me for the cinema in particular. If you read carefully, I said it doesn't matter who is writing the story if Bay is directing. And it is easily assumed if he is directing it be the same format. I have further added that if it is someone else then it may be either worse or way better than the previous 3-4 episode while I actually enjoyed 1-2 more.

Based on the writer, I am Not prepared to be very surprised that I would like it. Again if you are going to say but nothing is written yet, that's not what I based upon in this judgement. Is based on all his previous work and I could disagree with some members if they liked one over another. Is like if we have an election tomorrow and I tell you now there Tony Abott and a whole new cabinet of ministers. And I am trying to say I don't like Tony Abbott and I don't care about the new cabinet of ministers. And you are going on about "but he has not even done his budget and speech blah blah blah" and that's where some missed the point. Sure I can be wrong about tf5, but I am tired of the style in placed and is now to a point that tf movies are not my priority as a must watch or die show.

I have not bashed bay tfs movies by far till is overly poor, they got a pass for me for the latest. I do not understand why when I am not happy about some of his work I get shot at. Because I am not bothered if bay is your number one or only one tf story movie maker. However I know I am not the only person who have concerns about how Bay has sort of spoiled the transformers I so call know.

To tell me I am not to watch tf5 because of my low expectations is really where I won't let you tell me how it is. End of the day is just an opinion, you don't have to agree nor be overly sensitive about it.

I am sure many would want to see a good movie and not an average one.

As for picking on toys, I am basically stating what it is and how it is. Don't rub on me saying I am whining over no rubber tyres as even as a non tf fan I had s g1 toy with rubber tyres . When I state it, is just a note on it, nothing more, as the debate was done to death and it is what it is.

I go as far as people seem to get shot down when they see a variant colour mp and say is milking and people seem to go on defence mode. Likewise for g1 colours and toon accuracy.

Truth is, it's what you like and you have an opinion.

Oh and btw the transformers legend game. It is because I know how addictive and money wasting it is, I was more concerned about members willing to fork out $500 just for a digital card. But yes it's non of my business.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Well Trev I am not really a tf fan fan.

Straight to your answer I am discerning . You won't find me wondering in other tf toy thread other than mp line and just a handful of selection tf.

Ok, there ya go. You feel you are discerning. Fair enough. Thank you for answering the question.


However I will remind you that you were asked to:


stick to the topic please.

The other 700+ words were not required. I had been quite proud of this thread and had even done some research and surveys for it beforehand. Now the last 3 pages of it are you ranting or arguing with Sinner :(. It's kinda wrecked it. You have had your say multiple times, that's enough now.

[UltimateGalvatron]

Maybe get a mod to remove the banter and not needed comments that don't provide anything to the the question.


I think we are becoming jaded, and I think I'm one of them.
I'm getting sick of people from G1 complaining when they get all these modern MP and CHUG updates, we Unicron Trilogiers only have Universe Hot Shot, Gen Armada Starsceam and Megatron. I think it's kinda selfish, nearly every G1 Character has an updated form now. Focus on bringing back the other lines, Beast Wars/RiD/Armada/Cybertron etc
It just annoys me a bit. I mean I still by G1 CHuG and MP, but I won't more from other lines.

[GoktimusPrime]

From HasTak's POV, G1 makes more sense because adult G1 fans are the ones with disposable incomes that they can exploit. The Unicron Trilogy is only 12 years old, and even 12 years after G1 started Hasbro wasn't attempting to tap in on the G1 fandom. In fact, 1996 saw the very modest start of Beast Wars which took and its ultimately successful attempt in rescuing the franchise from extinction. Takara didn't really start seriously trying to exploit the disposable income of G1 fans until 2000 (16 years after G1 started). Because by that stage, most children of the 80s had well and truly finished their vocational training and/or tertiary studies (I was doing postgraduate studies); many had disposable incomes, and Takara started reissuing G1. But that's arguably a "lazier" form of tapping the consumer base, as it doesn't require R&Ding new products. HasTak didn't really start doing that until 2003/4 with proper adult-focused product lines like Binaltech and Masterpiece -- all as part of the 20th anniversary of G1.

And because G1 was the first, it does seem to overshadow everything else, which I agree is unfortunate. The Transformers franchise owes so much to Beast Wars. Even when we look at Generations/Combiner Wars today, they're still basing these toys so much on Beast Wars innovated standards. Yet the 10th anniversary of Beast Wars was relatively low-key, and with BW commemorating its 20th anniversary next year, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot planned to celebrate that. I mean, sure, we have an MP Optimus Primal on the way, but anything else?*

But I guess that's what happens with many franchises -- the original base line which started the whole thing will always be the "metric" by which the rest of the franchise will be measured by. During the EB Games Expo my daughter got a whole bunch of the new Topps Star Wars cards. I had a look through them yesterday and there were lots of cards based on the Original Trilogy and The Force Awakens, but not a single card showcasing anything from the Prequel Trilogy. And the Hasbro booth had the new upcoming Force FX lightsabres, and they're marketing Anakin Skywalker's lightsabre as "Luke Skywalker"'s lightsabre. Yeah okay, it did belong to Luke when Obi-Wan gave it to him in Episode IV, and Luke used it during that film and in Episode V, but it was originally Anakin's lightsabre. Obi-Wan swiped it from Darth Vader after defeating him on Mustafar (thus forcing Vader to construct a new lightsabre).

But this is something else that I really liked about Beast Wars -- it gave us something really different and fresh from just another reiteration of G1. Even the Unicron Trilogy is essentially another iteration of G1. But BW did that because Hasbro (Kenner) were deliberately moving away from G1 because that line was seen as weak (after nearly dying by 1995). They wanted to distance themselves from G1 to some degree in order to allow BW to stand on its own without being dragged down by the failing G1 brand at the time. But now that G1 is popular again, Hasbro are inclined to do the complete opposite.

--------------------------------------------------------
P.S. *Just noticed this thread (http://otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=21685). At least the BotCon people are doing something. :) Interesting to see if HasTak do anything else for the more mainstream line.

P.P.S. The GenerationS line is meant to be exactly that -- plural. As in, not only Generation 1. It should be encompassing all generations of Transformers, including Beast Wars, UT etc. Having said that, it's a lot less exciting when post-G2 toys get made as Classicsverse figures because, well... the engineering with Beast Wars was already so good that there's not really all that much that current day designs can offer to improve on it that much. At least, not nearly as much as they can improve on G1. I own Generations Waspinator and Rhinox, and I personally don't think that either toy substantially improve on the originals at the same level as a G1-based Generations toy does (bear in mind that the original Rhinox was a much cheaper Deluxe Class figure). I find it easier to make a direct comparison with the two Waspinators, as they are both Deluxe Class figures -- I actually still prefer the original Waspinator over the Generations one. Okay, the Generations figure has a more show-inspired aesthetic to his robot mode, and the wing flapping gimmick is cool, but the original Waspinator has a much more solid beast mode that does a more convincing job at concealing the hands and doesn't have an unsightly gap). I also own Universe Hot Shot and Armada Hot Shot -- while I appreciate the former's improved head and shoulder articulation, the rest of the toy pretty much doesn't offer much more than the original. And of course, it's sacrificed the Mini-Con gimmick (so there's trade-off). I've seen/handled Universe Cheetor and Dinobot, and I personally felt that neither of them offered any improvement over the originals, and was happy to skip both figures.

I got Armada Unicron as soon as it came out. And there have been repaints and retools of this mould to make it look more like G1 Unicron, and that's cool, but none of those redecos offer any real/substantial improvement over that toy's design (only cosmetic/aesthetic changes), which is why I've been happy to just stick with my Armada Unicron. Besides, he's a universal singularity! :D

Even with MP Optimus Primal, it'll be interesting to see how much more they can improve over the new toy. I suspect that there will be a lot of 'little' improvements here and there, mostly to make the toy look and play more like the cartoon model, but I'm not expecting it to be as massive an improvement over the original as say, Masterpiece Ironhide! The original Ultra Class Optimus Primal figure already boasts 12 points of articulation. MP Bumblebee has 14 points of articulation and the MP Lambos have 16 ... so the original Ultra OP figure nearly has as much articulation as an MP anyway. So yeah, I think another thing that's not seeing the demand for updated post-G1 toys is simply the lack of a perceived need, as many post-G1 toys were reasonably well designed and haven't been outdated nearly as badly as G1.

[Lint]

we Unicron Trilogiers

Yes! I'm glad this is a thing

[Magnus]

From HasTak's POV, G1 makes more sense because adult G1 fans are the ones with disposable incomes that they can exploit. The Unicron Trilogy is only 12 years old, and even 12 years after G1 started Hasbro wasn't attempting to tap in on the G1 fandom. In fact, 1996 saw the very modest start of Beast Wars which took and its ultimately successful attempt in rescuing the franchise from extinction. Takara didn't really start seriously trying to exploit the disposable income of G1 fans until 2000 (16 years after G1 started). Because by that stage, most children of the 80s had well and truly finished their vocational training and/or tertiary studies (I was doing postgraduate studies); many had disposable incomes, and Takara started reissuing G1. But that's arguably a "lazier" form of tapping the consumer base, as it doesn't require R&Ding new products. HasTak didn't really start doing that until 2003/4 with proper adult-focused product lines like Binaltech and Masterpiece -- all as part of the 20th anniversary of G1.

And because G1 was the first, it does seem to overshadow everything else, which I agree is unfortunate. The Transformers franchise owes so much to Beast Wars. Even when we look at Generations/Combiner Wars today, they're still basing these toys so much on Beast Wars innovated standards. Yet the 10th anniversary of Beast Wars was relatively low-key, and with BW commemorating its 20th anniversary next year, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot planned to celebrate that. I mean, sure, we have an MP Optimus Primal on the way, but anything else?

But I guess that's what happens with many franchises -- the original base line which started the whole thing will always be the "metric" by which the rest of the franchise will be measured by.

You're right - the focus on G1 makes the most business sense from HasTak's point of view. It also seems to be where the majority (not all) of the fandom's focus seems to be, as well, with Masterpieces and the G1-inspired Combiner Wars getting a lot of attention (again, the older fanbase with the disposable income). Even though I'm not a big Beast Wars fan, I'm hoping it gets more attention in the next year or so, since it's, in my opinion, the best thing that happened to the franchise until the first movie came out.


The GenerationS line is meant to be exactly that -- plural. As in, not only Generation 1. It should be encompassing all generations of Transformers, including Beast Wars, UT etc. Having said that, it's a lot less exciting when post-G2 toys get made as Classicsverse figures because, well... the engineering with Beast Wars was already so good that there's not really all that much that current day designs can offer to improve on it that much. At least, not nearly as much as they can improve on G1. I own Generations Waspinator and Rhinox, and I personally don't think that either toy substantially improve on the originals at the same level as a G1-based Generations toy does (bear in mind that the original Rhinox was a much cheaper Deluxe Class figure). I find it easier to make a direct comparison with the two Waspinators, as they are both Deluxe Class figures -- I actually still prefer the original Waspinator over the Generations one. Okay, the Generations figure has a more show-inspired aesthetic to his robot mode, and the wing flapping gimmick is cool, but the original Waspinator has a much more solid beast mode that does a more convincing job at concealing the hands and doesn't have an unsightly gap). I also own Universe Hot Shot and Armada Hot Shot -- while I appreciate the former's improved head and shoulder articulation, the rest of the toy pretty much doesn't offer much more than the original. And of course, it's sacrificed the Mini-Con gimmick (so there's trade-off). I've seen/handled Universe Cheetor and Dinobot, and I personally felt that neither of them offered any improvement over the originals, and was happy to skip both figures.

I got Armada Unicron as soon as it came out. And there have been repaints and retools of this mould to make it look more like G1 Unicron, and that's cool, but none of those redecos offer any real/substantial improvement over that toy's design (only cosmetic/aesthetic changes), which is why I've been happy to just stick with my Armada Unicron. Besides, he's a universal singularity! :D

Even with MP Optimus Primal, it'll be interesting to see how much more they can improve over the new toy. I suspect that there will be a lot of 'little' improvements here and there, mostly to make the toy look and play more like the cartoon model, but I'm not expecting it to be as massive an improvement over the original as say, Masterpiece Ironhide! The original Ultra Class Optimus Primal figure already boasts 12 points of articulation. MP Bumblebee has 14 points of articulation and the MP Lambos have 16 ... so the original Ultra OP figure nearly has as much articulation as an MP anyway. So yeah, I think another thing that's not seeing the demand for updated post-G1 toys is simply the lack of a perceived need, as many post-G1 toys were reasonably well designed and haven't been outdated nearly as badly as G1.

I agree - I thought the idea behind the Classics/Generations and Masterpiece toylines was to give a new take on classic characters, updating them with current engineering. G1 characters would obviously get the most benefit out of re-engineering, since they were built to 1970s and 1980s standards. Therefore, new versions of characters with more recent engineering don't really get much benefit. The exception would be season 1 Beast Wars characters, with redesigns that hopefully give greater screen-accuracy and cleaner (if not better articulated) beast modes. And again, as you've already established, G1 is getting the most attention anyway, for whatever reason.

[GoktimusPrime]

The exception would be season 1 Beast Wars characters, with redesigns that hopefully give greater screen-accuracy and cleaner (if not better articulated) beast modes. And again, as you've already established, G1 is getting the most attention anyway, for whatever reason.
I don't even know if most post-G1 toys even need that. Screen-likeness was much improved in most post-G1 toys, especially Beast Wars where the animators actually used 3D scanners and used those renders as the basis for the animation models. Sure, they did embellish their models somewhat, but overall they were pretty toy-accurate. When we look at post G1, the toys mostly looked good enough for animators to simply draw fairly toy-accurate models. They didn't really need to embellish them as G1 animators did. The main exception to this would be Beast Machines, which does definitely need updates, especially for the Maximals. But we've already seen at least one BM toy get a Generations upgrade (http://popcritica.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/transformers-generations-deluxe-tankor-pkg.jpg), although I personally don't think it was really that necessary (BftS Tank Drone is actually more show-accurate, and IMO the original Mega figure is still the best designed toy). But characters like Nightscream and Silverbolt desperately need better toys, and Botanica just needs to exist! :p

G1 toy v. screen models
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/toyvsshow_g1.jpg

BW toy v. screen models
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/toyvsshow_bw.jpg

Post-BW toy v. screen models
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/toyvsshow_current_small_zpsbhnkguhw.jpg

[Zommael]

I don't know if I've become jaded or not. I do know that when I first started collecting (around the time of tail-end RID/early Armada) there were a lot of new, exciting ideas floating around. Optimus Prime was a combiner, there were Minicons, articulation was both back (in RID) and gone again (in Armada), or in some cases used in different ways such as with Armada Hoist.

Shortly after I started collecting, the Masterpiece series launched alongside Alternators, which featured reimagined characters from the old days. Everything was very exciting and there was a lot going on. Energon appeared around the same time, which featured a whole tonne of homages to the characters I had thought since childhood were "cool" (the movie characters). Then we moved into Cybertron and it was like the lessons learned from Armada and Energon were used to take the toys to a whole new level. It was, in my opinion, a great time to be a collector.

Then the movies happened. I don't know that I feel they ruined collecting. They certainly brought a lot of new and cool ideas themselves (remember Automorph?). But they also brought a new level of nostalgia. All of the movie characters were based on G1 characters. Classics was successful, and suddenly it was like all Hasbro wanted to do was G1 homages. That's a long way from being the end of the world, but it did mean that it felt like the new and exciting ideas were slowing down. Animated breathed new life into the franchise for a while, but then it was cancelled in favour of Prime, and all I saw in the Prime toys was more G1-styled realistic cars with nothing to really grab me. I feel much the same way with the RID line today, with only the random repaints and updates in the Adventure line and the Minicon gimmick really grabbing me.

That changed with Beast Hunters. The idea of vehicles and robots with animalistic aspects wasn't a new one, but the scrapping of Transtech meant it was the first time it had really been employed as a design philosophy. Those toys did catch my eye and did grab me, and they got me back into collecting TFs full-time. Around the same time, the Generations line started to do some quite interesting things. I'd always been into Cybertronian designs and so the FOC line was very appealing to me. Then we had Thrilling 30, which instead of just updating old G1 toys and characters made a lot of efforts to reimagine them. Toys like Orion Pax, IDW Megatron, Whirl, and Rhinox really appealed to me, as did the Dinobots from AOE; I didn't see them as movie Dinobots so much as reimagined G1 Dinobots and I was happy to finally get a complete set. But again, it's the reimagining that appealed to me.

These days we're in the midst of Combiner Wars, and I have to say at first the line didn't grab me. Frankly, the torso and four limbs approach to Combiners seems to lack imagination to me, and while Scramble City is a cool approach on one level, on another it makes everything feel a bit generic. It was only after I picked up the first two CW toys that I was interested in - Optimus Prime and Armada Megatron - that my attitude changed. Quite simply I've been impressed with the level of engineering and creativity evidenced in the line. It might be based on the G1 combiners, but the new characters, chest and weapon Legends toys, and introduction of characters like Optimus Maximus and Cyclonus who originally weren't Combiners to me is very cool. I also feel like production standards are a bit higher in the line in general.

From that point of view, then, I'd say I'm discerning. I look for toys that are in some way new and different, reimagined and creative rather than just updated and nostalgic.

Where I am definitely jaded is in regards to the Masterpiece line. I feel like what it's become since it first started has devalued the line. The first 10 Masterpieces were, in my opinion, figures of the most iconic characters in the franchise. Optimus Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grimlock, Rodimus Prime. They felt special, as updates of iconic characters with the very best in engineering and construction.

But then came MP-10, a supposedly "better" version of what to me remains the best version of the G1 leader ever. From there, it just got worse. Starscream, whose toy I felt was a fantastic reimagining of the G1 character with an awesome alternate mode, also had to have a "better" version made which was really just more Geewun. Then there was Sideswipe, who might be a fanboy favourite but is hardly more iconic than, for instance, Bumblebee. When Soundwave was released I had to roll my eyes at fans going gaga for a robot that transforms into a box - and of course there was the inevitable Soundblaster repaint. Ultra Magnus looked like it might have been a breath of fresh air but was so blocky I rejoiced when images of the Generations version were released, that I wouldn't need to buy it.

The only non-repaint figure that has fired my imagination and captured my interest in the Masterpiece line since MP-10 is Star Saber. That's not to say there are no releases I'm interested in at all, but I always end up deciding it's better to spend my money on Generations figures that immediately capture my interest than repaints of toys that are cool, but are repaints of - to me - fairly boring designs. I mean I'd be all over an Eva Prime figure, but at the expense of Generations Devastator? Not a chance.

So that's where I stand. I know what I look for in toys, and I know what I feel tired of. I'm very tired of Season 1 of G1. There are 29 other years of the franchise to draw from. I think that makes me jaded with regard to that part of the franchise, but at least I'm discerning in what I buy.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I don't know if I've become jaded or not. I do know that when I first started collecting (around the time of tail-end RID/early Armada) there were a lot of new, exciting ideas floating around. Optimus Prime was a combiner, there were Minicons, articulation was both back (in RID) and gone again (in Armada), or in some cases used in different ways such as with Armada Hoist.

Shortly after I started collecting, the Masterpiece series launched alongside Alternators, which featured reimagined characters from the old days. Everything was very exciting and there was a lot going on. Energon appeared around the same time, which featured a whole tonne of homages to the characters I had thought since childhood were "cool" (the movie characters). Then we moved into Cybertron and it was like the lessons learned from Armada and Energon were used to take the toys to a whole new level. It was, in my opinion, a great time to be a collector.

Then the movies happened. I don't know that I feel they ruined collecting. They certainly brought a lot of new and cool ideas themselves (remember Automorph?). But they also brought a new level of nostalgia. All of the movie characters were based on G1 characters. Classics was successful, and suddenly it was like all Hasbro wanted to do was G1 homages. That's a long way from being the end of the world, but it did mean that it felt like the new and exciting ideas were slowing down. Animated breathed new life into the franchise for a while, but then it was cancelled in favour of Prime, and all I saw in the Prime toys was more G1-styled realistic cars with nothing to really grab me. I feel much the same way with the RID line today, with only the random repaints and updates in the Adventure line and the Minicon gimmick really grabbing me.

That changed with Beast Hunters. The idea of vehicles and robots with animalistic aspects wasn't a new one, but the scrapping of Transtech meant it was the first time it had really been employed as a design philosophy. Those toys did catch my eye and did grab me, and they got me back into collecting TFs full-time. Around the same time, the Generations line started to do some quite interesting things. I'd always been into Cybertronian designs and so the FOC line was very appealing to me. Then we had Thrilling 30, which instead of just updating old G1 toys and characters made a lot of efforts to reimagine them. Toys like Orion Pax, IDW Megatron, Whirl, and Rhinox really appealed to me, as did the Dinobots from AOE; I didn't see them as movie Dinobots so much as reimagined G1 Dinobots and I was happy to finally get a complete set. But again, it's the reimagining that appealed to me.

These days we're in the midst of Combiner Wars, and I have to say at first the line didn't grab me. Frankly, the torso and four limbs approach to Combiners seems to lack imagination to me, and while Scramble City is a cool approach on one level, on another it makes everything feel a bit generic. It was only after I picked up the first two CW toys that I was interested in - Optimus Prime and Armada Megatron - that my attitude changed. Quite simply I've been impressed with the level of engineering and creativity evidenced in the line. It might be based on the G1 combiners, but the new characters, chest and weapon Legends toys, and introduction of characters like Optimus Maximus and Cyclonus who originally weren't Combiners to me is very cool. I also feel like production standards are a bit higher in the line in general.

From that point of view, then, I'd say I'm discerning. I look for toys that are in some way new and different, reimagined and creative rather than just updated and nostalgic.

Where I am definitely jaded is in regards to the Masterpiece line. I feel like what it's become since it first started has devalued the line. The first 10 Masterpieces were, in my opinion, figures of the most iconic characters in the franchise. Optimus Prime, Megatron, Starscream, Grimlock, Rodimus Prime. They felt special, as updates of iconic characters with the very best in engineering and construction.

But then came MP-10, a supposedly "better" version of what to me remains the best version of the G1 leader ever. From there, it just got worse. Starscream, whose toy I felt was a fantastic reimagining of the G1 character with an awesome alternate mode, also had to have a "better" version made which was really just more Geewun. Then there was Sideswipe, who might be a fanboy favourite but is hardly more iconic than, for instance, Bumblebee. When Soundwave was released I had to roll my eyes at fans going gaga for a robot that transforms into a box - and of course there was the inevitable Soundblaster repaint. Ultra Magnus looked like it might have been a breath of fresh air but was so blocky I rejoiced when images of the Generations version were released, that I wouldn't need to buy it.

The only non-repaint figure that has fired my imagination and captured my interest in the Masterpiece line since MP-10 is Star Saber. That's not to say there are no releases I'm interested in at all, but I always end up deciding it's better to spend my money on Generations figures that immediately capture my interest than repaints of toys that are cool, but are repaints of - to me - fairly boring designs. I mean I'd be all over an Eva Prime figure, but at the expense of Generations Devastator? Not a chance.

So that's where I stand. I know what I look for in toys, and I know what I feel tired of. I'm very tired of Season 1 of G1. There are 29 other years of the franchise to draw from. I think that makes me jaded with regard to that part of the franchise, but at least I'm discerning in what I buy.

That was a very interesting and well thought out post to read Zom (as well as being on topic :p). Thanks for sharing :)

[Darksaber]

I wouldn't say i'm jaded but there is alot more to compare it to these days.

The quality of toys and even kids movies have improved immensely I mean I've seen all 4 live action movies in cinema's but if you compare them to the storyline's of other movies focused at kids it is obvious that they are lacking and that's just the times that we live in if anything we are spoilt with quality.

So in reality its not the evolution of the toys and mainstream buzz of the live action movies but the fact that the general measuring bar has been raised by it's rivals so again like i said we are spoilt by a saturated market.

Also the franchise goes through peaks and troughs in line with any company that has spanned the time that Hasbro has so they can't succeed 100% of the time.

For me my only problem is the lack of an over arching storyline to connect the universes which would allow transitions over timelines which would allow the use of various different characters. The thriving franchise does assist all of us which is proven by the various lines that are aimed at adult collectors with out the money that the movies brings in it allows us to get lines such as Masterpiece, Generations and Combiner Wars.

So while i don't hold a very high opinion of the movies i can see how they can assist with the items i'm interested in. An hopefully be able to cater to all the fans of the other generations aswell in time.

[Trent]

I think it's a great time to be a TF collector and the movies are the main contributor to this "golden age". But whether you enjoy them for their entertainment value or not, they're not good movies. Popcorn flicks at best.

Apart from 2 or 3, I've never bought any movie toys because I'm not a fan of the aesthetic. I completely understand how people would be though and the movie lines have produced some great toys.

[SMHFConvoy]

You'd have to be pretty special if you've seen all 4 of the previous movies directed by Bay, hated them and still lined up to watch number 5.

1st one still stacks up to be the best. I saw the rest *hoping* they would be better ;_;

[Lord_Zed]

Interesting question.

I would say a little from column A and a little from column B for me, but overall more discerning than jaded, and I would use fatigued rather than jaded. As there is simply so much TF, and TF related content these days that there is too much to keep up with, let alone acquire, so that leads to fans being more discerning, and possibly becoming more dismissive of the TF content that does not interest them, especially on the internet where every second post is someone complaining. Those of us who have been collecting since Transformers began have seen all sorts of ups and downs when it comes to toys, toons and comics, so I guess that had made us more critical too.

Overall I think we are in a good place for the life of the brand but I certainly don't feel the need to be indebted or grateful to Hasbro or Michael Bay, or sing their praises. They are both business/business men if they make a good product then they'll get my money, which is all they want at the end of the day.

Interestingly I'm of the opposite opinion to Zommael where for me the MP line is where I'm most interested and invigorated by TF toys, while with the other lines I'm closer to Jaded. Essentially aside from MP's I haven't really collected more than a few odd toys for a main TF line since ROTF, at some point the toys just became to simplistic for me and didn't fire my imagination in the same way. Admittedly the MP line is full of repetition, and there's going to be more, mark my words there will be another MP Optimus some day, but as long as the toys remain interesting, I'll accept that.





I agree - I thought the idea behind the Classics/Generations and Masterpiece toylines was to give a new take on classic characters, updating them with current engineering. G1 characters would obviously get the most benefit out of re-engineering, since they were built to 1970s and 1980s standards. Therefore, new versions of characters with more recent engineering don't really get much benefit. The exception would be season 1 Beast Wars characters, with redesigns that hopefully give greater screen-accuracy and cleaner (if not better articulated) beast modes. And again, as you've already established, G1 is getting the most attention anyway, for whatever reason.

I think the key words are a new take on classic characters, and introducing them to a new generation of kids, even Beast Machines is 15 years old. Generations Tankor that Goktimus mentioned is likely to be the only Tankor toy an 8 year old has ever seen. I think if we want to avoid feeling jaded we need to forget about the whole upgrade/improvement mindset. as today's new versions of toys are simply different not better. If they do remake Beast Wars characters they will surely benefit from today's advanced sculpting and injection molding techniques, but also suffer from the decrease in parts, caused by the expense of materials. This has always been the way though, as good as the first G1 themed Generations toys were with their then modern articulation and sculpting, their vehicle modes are inferior to many of first two years of Autobots with their diecast, rubber tires and glossy paint, so there's always going to be some give and take.

[MissDaria]

You'd have to be pretty special if you've seen all 4 of the previous movies directed by Bay, hated them and still lined up to watch number 5.

Those special people will come. I've seen people complain that they have no idea why these movies keep being made because they think they're so terrible, given that all of the three times they paid to see a film in the cinema they hated it each time.

If these films are going to continue to make jillions of dollars, then no matter what I don't like about them, I can't really blame the makers for making them.

Though I saw at least one post from a fan who was simultaneously self-aware and unaware. He didn't like the films, but griped that he had to go and watch and buy them because otherwise he wouldn't feel like a true Transformers fan. (This was framed as Michael Bay being at fault, of course.)


[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="3"]
I mean really, really special. Either that, or you're a little girl that has FOMO.

What's a FOMO?