Counting Generations "Targetmasters"

[GoktimusPrime]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/generations_targetmasters_zpsb43b995c.jpg

Case for the Affirmative
+ Unlike other Targetmaster partners (which currently do not count under Article 02 of the UCM), these Transformers have independent alt modes, arguably making them Transformers in their own right like Mini-Cons (which do count under Article 03).

Case for the Negative
- The level of engineering is far below that of a Mini-Con and more akin of a Targetmaster partner. Breast Force partners also have independent alt modes, but do not count under UCM Article 02.

Point for Consideration
Could these figures be sold separately?
If a toy like Reflector were sold separately, without Skrapnel or any other Legends Class Transformer to accompany it, would most people still purchase it? In other words, do you think that these toys are good enough as Transformers in their own right, and thus worthy to be counted separately? Note that I've deliberately said "most people" and not "you," because as dedicated collectors, many of us probably would buy these moulds individually (just as some of us have forked out premium prices for the Japanese Headmaster and Godmaster Warriors, which do count under a Special Exemption in Article 02). But I'm talking about your average TF consumer (kids, casual collectors etc.). Because I think this is the key reason why most people elected for Mini-Cons to count separately, but not ~master partners.

In any case, I've created this poll to get a general consensus as to what people think. After that, I will amend the UCM to reflect the result (rather than creating a new article, which I don't think is necessary). :)

[Sky Shadow]

Due to the lack of a "I don't care" option, I voted "yes".

[dirge]

I say "no" as they're essentially useless on their own & would be more or less unsellable.

[Bidoofdude]

To the general public, they probably wouldn't sell well, unless they sold them in 3-packs similar to the Unicron Trilogy at low prices. That being said, releasing characters like micromasters would help sell them to fans wanting Classics Micromasters, even if they are in the form of a Targetmaster.

Blazemaster has a proud place in my Classics collection as Classics Blazemaster and I would love to have more characters like that in 3 packs or as bonuses to larger figures (such as Generations legends and deluxes) to fill up micromaster collections.

I liked minicons (the Cybertron ones anyway) when I was a young child and the characters didn't really matter to me. They have both a robot and vehicle mode, as well as a gun mode. That would sell pretty well to your random child who's not too picky about characters.

[Sky Shadow]

Reflector is a bit of a silly toy, but I still spent about $15 on him after postage, since I didn't even want Skrapnel. I do think they're better toys than most Mini-Cons.

[GoktimusPrime]

Blazemaster has a proud place in my Classics collection as Classics Blazemaster and I would love to have more characters like that in 3 packs or as bonuses to larger figures (such as Generations legends and deluxes) to fill up micromaster collections.
I think you meant Blast Master (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blast_Master) rather than Blazemaster (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blazemaster). ;)

[Bidoofdude]

I think you meant Blast Master (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blast_Master) rather than Blazemaster (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blazemaster). ;)

I was referring to the 1990 Micromaster:http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Blaze_Master

Forgot the space. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah, right. Actually, that toy's name has no space (http://photo.eptoy.com/ebayphoto/tfg_lc_bee_bl01.jpg), whereas the G1 version does (http://www.unicron.com/tfitem/itemimage_imgsrc.php?imageID=3597&size=9999). :o

[DELTAprime]

The way I count is by the individual. So since every Targetmaster I know of has his/her own individual consciousness in the western canon I count them separate. So for example Ginrai is one character for the whole set, but Powermaster Optimus Prime counts as two because Hi-Q has his own mind.

I also keep track of a separate number of how many sets.

[BigTransformerTrev]

The way I count is by the individual. So since every Targetmaster I know of has his/her own individual consciousness in the western canon I count them separate. So for example Ginrai is one character for the whole set, but Powermaster Optimus Prime counts as two because Hi-Q has his own mind.

I also keep track of a separate number of how many sets.

That's exactly how I do it :)

[Sky Shadow]

The way I count is by the individual. So since every Targetmaster I know of has his/her own individual consciousness in the western canon I count them separate. So for example Ginrai is one character for the whole set, but Powermaster Optimus Prime counts as two because Hi-Q has his own mind.

That's interesting. How would you count Doublecross, Flywheels, Animated Blitzwing, Beast Changer, Punch/Counterpunch, Alpha Quintesson, Metroplex, Six-Gun, Slammer, Scamper Optimus Prime, Roller and Combat Deck?

[kurdt_the_goat]

I recently came up against several classification issues when making my new transformer search site (check soundwaves global forum if you're interested).

On my site, if an accessory has a name, and transforms, it counts as a separate listing. Ones i stumbled on were Sixgun (who transforms into a pile of blocks... no listing for him!) and DOTM Commander Blackout's Targetmaster Scorponok figure. It wasn't until i did the site that i realised the damn thing transformed lol. Though nowhere (i think) is he referred to as a Targetmaster on packaging, i labelled him as such since it didn't seem right listing him as "Commander" like his package mate. I tried to stick with packaging name as much as possible but .. difficult!

Cause my site has Robot & Alt mode photos for each... i'm glad i haven't got any Action Masters to consider adding yet :D

[griffin]

Mine is simple - if you wouldn't buy or review a toy without certain accessories or partners, then those accessories and partners don't count as separate toys.

Would you buy Optimus without Roller, if it is listed as complete, or review one without Roller?
If it isn't complete without it, why would it count as a separate toy?

(My first counting method maaaaany years ago was to count individual characters as separate toys. But then Armada came along, and I realised that partner Minicons couldn't count as separate toys if they are required to complete the toy they were boxed with, making me recount my collection to match. After all, if I wouldn't buy Hotshot without Jolt, how can Jolt be considered a separate toy if Hotshot needs it to be a "complete" toy. Same with something like Metroplex, if you count Scamper as a separate toy, it means your Metroplex is incomplete.)

[Lord_Zed]

I'd say no as these toys are little more than external gimmicks to get people to buy the toys, on their own they are horrible toys, it'd be like considering Sixgun a separate toy to G1 Metroplex.

If Generations Groundpounder is going to counted as a separate TF toy in his own right, then I'm going to say we have hit and all new low in TF toys, and that's saying something. :eek:

[DELTAprime]

That's interesting. How would you count Doublecross, Flywheels, Animated Blitzwing, Beast Changer, Punch/Counterpunch, Alpha Quintesson, Metroplex, Six-Gun, Slammer, Scamper Optimus Prime, Roller and Combat Deck?

Doublecross: According to TFwiki he is two minds in one, I don't have him so I've never considered it.

Flywheels if I had him and Animated Bliztwing when I get him are each one character. Multiple/split personalities are mental illness, not separate minds in real life AFAIK.

Never saw BM so I'm not familiar with Beast Changer.

Punch/Counterpunch is an Autobot with a Deception alt mode, in the cartoon at least, don't know about Marvel comics.

I'm not sure about the Quintesson's, I'd have to research it if they ever release a toy thats not Alpha Q which I hate and will never pick up.

G1 Metroplex, I see I have them listed as one, but I'll have to research them now that I see that I have them listed that way (oversight maybe). All I know is only Metroplex was shown to have a consciousness in the show, I don't know about the comics. Generations Metroplex I'd say Scamper is is own guy in this version.

Optimus, again in the cartoon, sorry I never read the Marvel comics, Roller is only ever seen as a drone and in IDW all three are one consciousness as explained in the first few issues when Megatron almost kills Prime.

This is why I keep a separate number that is just complete sets, as counting by character is up to interpretation.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I think the final word on that they should be counted separately is that thru even get their own individual tech spec on the back of the box