What's Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party bots?

[Tfiguy]

Does anyone know Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party transformers? I know legally they (Tak/Tom, Hasbro unless they made a direct mould copy or name or insignia) probably wouldn't have a leg to stand on but I noticed that they get displayed at Botcon and Tfcon so I was thinking they may have given them an ok for now as they have been out for ages without any legal cases... Anyone have any knowledge?

[Oberon Sexton]

3rd party companies do not exist. There is no such thing as other companies producing unlicensed transformers products. Hasbro understands that fans like to display custom works of art at botcons, and to not have friction with fans they allow the display of fan art work. Distribution of art work is allowed as many fans appreciate fan art which also generates interest in official IP products.

[griffin]

3rd party companies do not exist. There is no such thing as other companies producing unlicensed transformers products.

Yes there are. They are any of those companies in the Unauthorised Transformers section that don't have a license to make money off someone else's concepts and expensive trademarks. (if you were trying to raise a technical point of its definition)
Any company that didn't pay a license to sell products based on Transformers characters or trademarks, is a third party.
IDW pays money to sell comics based on Hasbro's Transformers.
Art Storm pays money to produce and sell toys based on Hasbro/TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Bearbrick paid money to sell toys based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Nanoblock paid money to sell toys based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
Sentinel paid money to sell transforming pens based on TakaraTomy's Transformers.
(etc, etc, for anything else you've seen in stores or online that was licensed, to pay for the privilege of making money off someone else's ideas instead of creating their own and try to make people want to buy it)

Third Party companies don't pay any money, but are making money on toys based on a Brand that Hasbro & TakaraTomy have invested many dollars on.

If you created a story or toyline and spent lots of money developing it, registering it and marketing it, would you be okay if someone else came along and just copied it without as much expense to them?

Hasbro and TakaraTomy have spent lots of money registering patents and Trademarks on thousands of Transformers names, designs and concepts in order for them to make money, so have a right to make other companies pay a fee to make money off their hard work.

At the moment though, for some reason they aren't interested in stopping the unauthorised profiting off of their expensive trademarks (according to the senior Hasbro person at this year's BotCon).
As you can see on this site, I've allowed for a section for you guys to talk about them, because it's THEIR responsibility to enforce their registered trademarks (anything produced that an ordinary person would perceive as being based on a character they own), if and when they choose to... so fans shouldn't get upset if they suddenly decide to put a stop to it, because them ignoring it doesn't equate to them accepting it.

They might not have been seen as a threat to Hasbro yet, but if their products keep growing each year, there will be a point when Hasbro will eventually act.
And it may not be done to protect their own sales (which are still only negligible, but who's to say the next step isn't mass-production on a grander scale)... but maybe they might just do it to protect their professional corporate image, as other companies may choose not to do business with a toy company that doesn't have control over their Trademarks or care if other companies make money off their products.

[Oberon Sexton]

It was a joke. Admittedly, not a good one.

[Sky Shadow]

They have acted a couple of times - a cease and desist against Comic Ink selling iGear's Not-G2 Not-Ramjet, and banning all third party items at BotCon 2012. But generally it seems not worth their effort, or they don't care, or they think it's exposure, or they turn a blind eye.

[kurdt_the_goat]

The term Third Party in the video game world applies to licensed developers - which doesn't really match up with the definition in the Transformer toys world.

I wonder if Hasbro could implement that business model, if they wanted to? They'd have to come to terms with relinquishing some control over the brand, but it could become much larger, with multiple manufacturers making officially licensed Transformer toys - with Hasbro getting a cut, and the third parties as we know them now, getting the benefit of not being seen as unauthorized anymore.

[Oberon Sexton]

The term Third Party in the video game world applies to licensed developers - which doesn't really match up with the definition in the Transformer toys world.

I wonder if Hasbro could implement that business model, if they wanted to? They'd have to come to terms with relinquishing some control over the brand, but it could become much larger, with multiple manufacturers making officially licensed Transformer toys - with Hasbro getting a cut, and the third parties as we know them now, getting the benefit of not being seen as unauthorized anymore.

It'd be like how Figuarts, Hot Toys, Revoltech, etc already do their collectibles. It's not a new concept, and not new to HasTak either. If it means getting good quality masaterpeice level toys, I'd be all for paying the extra cost of official licensing.

[llamatron]

"What's Takara Tomy's and Hasbro's stance on 3rd party bots?"

Jealousy. :p

[griffin]

I think it was mentioned somewhere recently that while 3rd party items aren't impacting on their sales, they keep an eye on them to see what fans are more interested in, as it might be seen with some Hasbro character toys or concepts (masters and combiners) show up soon after.


It was a joke. Admittedly, not a good one.

Okay, fair enough. Maybe next time consider using a :p smilie, to help make the sarcasm more obvious. :)
(I hate using text for humour... it gets me into so much trouble. :o)

[griffin]

The term Third Party in the video game world applies to licensed developers - which doesn't really match up with the definition in the Transformer toys world.

I wonder if Hasbro could implement that business model, if they wanted to? They'd have to come to terms with relinquishing some control over the brand, but it could become much larger, with multiple manufacturers making officially licensed Transformer toys - with Hasbro getting a cut, and the third parties as we know them now, getting the benefit of not being seen as unauthorized anymore.

I think the term 3rd party came from the early years when it was just parts production, as it was a third party enhancing 1st party (official) toys.
Now though, it is probably more of a misnomer, but just stuck through the evolution of parts to full toys.

Your second point is probably what we are now seeing in Japan, with Sentinel, Bearbrick, Nanoblocks and Art Storm (so far non-transforming toys, but probably not long until they do converting toys)... maybe because TakaraTomy seems to struggle more often with the Brand than Hasbro. Maybe they are starting to out-source more of the fringe, fan-focused items that aren't going to earn much anyway, leaving them to take on more of a Hasbro model and focus on the massive-unit, general release, kiddy items.

[GoktimusPrime]

In 2000, Takara took action against an unauthorised comic book that was to be sold at BotCon Japan. The author of the book was ordered not to sell the book and instead give it away to attendees for free. There has never been another BotCon in Japan ever since.
http://www.botcon.com/archive/2000j/index.html
http://tfwiki.net/wiki/BotCon_Japan_2000

[reillyd]

Hasbro doesn't have the right to stop competitors making third party products or transforming robots *cough*Voltron* but it's a shame that so few actually create something ORIGINAL that they come up with on their own. For example GlacialLord combiner. But how often do you see a *new* toy made in an 80s homage? It's rare (only other one I can think of is the Reaction figures that use Kenner style packaging, but can't think of any robot beyond GlacialLord )

There are legitimate parts and upgrades for Transformers on 3d printing sites like Shapeways, and Hasbro are making an attempt to do something with it.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Officially, word is that they acknowledge it's a thing and - as a company - don't particularly like it, even if individual designers like some of the works.
Of course, that was coming from Aaron Archer, who is now involved with a pseudo-3P group making Pretender homages. So, you know...it's sort of an official/legal position.

However, it's not worth the time and resources it would take for HTT to shut down the 3P 'industry' (or the fan nerd-rage that would follow, which I'm sure they get enough of as is), so they turn a blind eye as long as it's not shoved too hard in their faces. I think the rule is ~10% different = legally safe enough to avoid trouble.

At the same time, HTT don't feel it's worth the lower profit margins to make high-end stuff themselves on a wide scale - with a few well-received exceptions a la MasterPiece. So, they can't really be bothered stamping it out by filling the market niche themselves - it's more profitable to sell more regular release toys to a greater number of consumers.
And of course, HasTakTom don't really want to get too far into the copyright/trademark design issue themselves, 'cos then the issue of licensed vehicle alt-modes comes up, and HTT aren't much better on the similar-but-legally-distinct front than the 3rd Party groups on that count.

The latter 2 factors are why I personally have no problem with 3P stuff (albeit I do prefer upgrade kits over full figures) - aside from the cost, I have a budget after all - but the official stance is: We Don't Like It, But It's Too Much Hassle To Do Anything About, So (Unofficially) Unless It Becomes A Major Problem We'll Look The Other Way.


Coincidentally, there's already a discussion thread on this topic here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=17054).:)

[Tfiguy]

It was a joke. Admittedly, not a good one.

lol, I knew you were ;)

[Sinnertwin]

The day Hasbro stop bastardising existing real world vehicles themselves to avoid paying fees & make a profit off them, is the day I feel they have every right to shut down third party operations for stealing *their* intellectual property.

[llamatron]

oh make no mistake, Hasbro's "outrage" is purely dollar/legal motivated, they have no moral high ground to take. They've been copying vehicles designs for years. And let's not even talk about Kreos...

[Sky Shadow]

And let's not even talk about Kreos...

I don't think Lego's ever had the high ground on this, ripping off Kiddicraft for thirty years, then buying them out just so they could try to sue Tyco for doing the exact thing they did.

[griffin]

It reminds me of the Simpsons episode years ago that had them in court talking about everyone copies everything (when Itchy & Scratchy was claimed to be someone else's creation).

It's hard to justify a moral stand when very few current big businesses can claim the high ground.

[Defcon]

Hasbro could potentially limit the distribution and Advertising of 3rd Party products, but wouldn't bother going after the companies that manufacture the items. They could send out cease and desists to all the major online retailers, which normally sell third party products as well as official HASBRO products. There are a few, I guess BBTS and Transformers Source are the major ones. Hasbro would need to be selective though on specifically which products to do this to, as to not cause an upset with the retailers and customers who also purchase Hasbro products as well as the 3rd party items. I have noticed and maybe I am wrong, but Toyworld's Bee, and Optimus imitations have not been sold at BBTS or Transformers Source. I'm thinking the business relationship with Hasbro, stopped these items. Just a guess.

So Hasbro will protect IP for Bumblebee and Optimus Prime, but sadly that is it. I love Third party products by the way.

Edit; Well actually Transformers Source did list Toyworlds Orion (Optimus for sale), so my theory is not overly solid.

[griffin]

Most of the fan-awareness of the unauthorised items is from the two global fansites treating them as Transformers news, so they are splashed on their news pages for everyone to see without trying to hunt them down.
(and TFW being behind TFCon, which has as its main feature being 3rd party presentations while Hasbro aren't willing or able to get involved)

If Hasbro told the two global fansites to stop treating it as news and keep it in the back-end creative sections, at least half of their sales would dry up to just those who are more dedicated to keep track of them (as less new people would be drawn in if they don't ever go beyond the news pages/sections). And the two sites are too competitive to refuse because they need to remain on Hasbro's mailing list for official images and press-releases.

But as noted above, the Hasbro person at BotCon said that they have no current plans to act on the fansites or the American online stores selling them.

[llamatron]

I would guess that currently the total sales of 3rd party figures are a teeeeny tiny drop compared to the massive ocean of sales that Hasbro makes with it's Transformers toys.

[Lord_Zed]

I would guess that currently the total sales of 3rd party figures are a teeeeny tiny drop compared to the massive ocean of sales that Hasbro makes with it's Transformers toys.

Sounds about right, when you look at all the TF products released by Hasbro this year, the ones focused on the same sort of collectors the 3rd parties target would only be a small percentage of the amount of merchandise they pump out.

I'm sure of third party products started selling their wares in Wall Mart and departments stores then Hasbro would be spurred to action. But I doubt they would do that and as long as they remain a niche market I doubt it's too much concern to Hasbro. The extent of 3rd parties influence the situation probably appears larger than it is to people like us who are the niche the 3rd parties target.

[Paulbot]

Most of the fan-awareness of the unauthorised items is from the two global fansites treating them as Transformers news, so they are splashed on their news pages for everyone to see without trying to hunt them down.
Which two sites do you mean? Seibertron stopped front paging news of 3rd Party stuff a while ago.

[Sky Shadow]

Well, it looks like Hasbro just started caring. TFW2005 is down right now, because it "got hit with several DCMAs from Hasbro at around 3am this morning. Apparently the site had been "Overenthusiastically promoting products not licensed or produced by Hasbro that were protected properties." Things are not looking good right now. That's all I can say at this time." Big news.

[griffin]

Hmmm... I was just asking about that elsewhere.

I'm surprised that there was no warning and such drastic action was taken, but it doesn't surprise me that it happened, because TFCon has been focussing on unauthorised items because Hasbro isn't willing to be presenting products there.

It also wouldn't surprise me if FunPub didn't have something to do with complaining to Hasbro, as TFW is behind TFCon, and if TFW gets shut down, TFCon has to remain a Canadian-only venture.


I think I recall that the US Government has the power to shut down and redirect browsers on sites that are even suspected of pirated or illegal goods. Even if it is proven false, the sites can be caught up in limbo on mere allegation for a long time until it is proven otherwise.

[Paulbot]

A news site should be able to cover "items that exist". Shouldn't they focus on sites selling said items rather than one 'promoting' them? If it is to do with the convention, and timing suggests maybe, it's an interesting move.

[griffin]

Which two sites do you mean? Seibertron stopped front paging news of 3rd Party stuff a while ago.

Yeah, they were good on that, and it seems that it may have just protected them from being shut down as well (as TFW).

But the problem was that it was still on their news page indirectly - from their constant inclusion of dealer advertising that you have to scroll through for ages - which is full of 3rd party items each time. Dealers like TFsource include all the images as well, which gets posted on Seibertron's news page, and becomes "news" by stealth.

[Trent]

I predict nerd-rage.

[griffin]

This has massive ramifications to the fandom.

It could kill off the biggest transfan site in the world.
Even if the owner is able to create a new site (with a new name) there might be little chance of him gaining access to archives on the TFW server, which will see 10-12 years of archived images and info on Transformers lost. Much of which isn't archived anywhere else, or is not as easy to search for on sites like Seibertron, TFormers or Allspark.
It's like having all the eggs in one basket, and I wasn't archiving their news images because I never expected that site would ever disappear.

They still have their Canadian site working (http://www.cybertron.ca/), so might just transfer to that... and be safe outside of US jurisdiction.

I thought they'd at least tweet about it, or make a mention on their Canadian site if this happened several hours ago.

[griffin]

I predict nerd-rage.

Yes, there will be...


(snip)
if and when they choose to... so fans shouldn't get upset if they suddenly decide to put a stop to it, because them ignoring it doesn't equate to them accepting it.

[Oberon Sexton]

I wouldn't have thought HasTak had the power to shutdown a website that didn't actively sell the figures. At worst, I thought they would stop dealing with them in terms of press release and such. I mean, there are numerous products on the front page of TFSource and BBTS right now. Why not them?

[UltraMarginal]

3rd party companies do not exist. There is no such thing as other companies producing unlicensed transformers products. Hasbro understands that fans like to display custom works of art at botcons, and to not have friction with fans they allow the display of fan art work. Distribution of art work is allowed as many fans appreciate fan art which also generates interest in official IP products.


It was a joke. Admittedly, not a good one.

HAHA, yea I got it.


following posts after that, I've always understood that any licenced product is a third party product.
Unlicensed product is not technically third party.


Which two sites do you mean? Seibertron stopped front paging news of 3rd Party stuff a while ago.

Well over a year ago maybe even 2.


Well, it looks like Hasbro just started caring. TFW2005 is down right now, because it "got hit with several DCMAs from Hasbro at around 3am this morning. Apparently the site had been "Overenthusiastically promoting products not licensed or produced by Hasbro that were protected properties." Things are not looking good right now. That's all I can say at this time." Big news.

Wow, the hammer finally dropped somewhere.
I have certainly noticed that since Seibertron stopped front paging "Third party" news it has become more of a focus of the TFW2005 pages.

I have also noticed that BBTS don't advertise it as hard as TFSource do. it's harder to find in their menus even though individual items are often called out on their front page. I noticed that the last issue of the club magazine had a pamphlet from both stores. BBTS was mostly official product and TFS was Nearly entirely "third Party"

I like third party add ons personally and I don't think that's something that Hasbro have ever had a problem with, the situation they have going with Shapeways supports that. It may also be a trigger for harder crack down on more complex "third party" products if Shapeways are paying much for this arrangement. A lot of earlier "third Party" add ons created incentive to purchase Hasbro Products that otherwise would have shelf warmed.

Of late a larger volume of very expensive "third Party" product has entered the market and Hasbro may be becoming less comfortable with it, especially as so much of it is becoming more specific and less 'approximate'.
What confuses me about the whole situation though is the Roadbots line that came out a few years ago, it was sheaper than transformers, clearly using the same basic concepts but never seemed to be challenged by hasbro. It spent a long time on regular retail shelves.

I hope we see the return of TFW soon, while it can get a bit heated in the forum pages it's a large part of the international community and it would be a loss for the fandom and Hasbro if it simply dissapeared.

[Trent]

Hasbro aren't ingratiating themselves with the fandom with this. Even if you weren't into third party stuff, you just lost your biggest online community. Hasbro, instead of being dicks, could have had a quiet word behind the scenes to the TFW owners and they would have lowered the profile of non-official stuff instantly. Instead, as you said Griffman, they shut down one of, if not the biggest TF resource on the web.

This doesn't make me want to rush out to support Hasbro.

Who is starting the petition to send to Hasbro to bring back TFW?

[UltraMarginal]

The other thing is that Hasbro and TFW have had a good relationship, they had direct interviews with them when they brought out this quarters financial report. whether it was just TFW or they were part of a larger teleconference, it's still clearly a good releationship if they are invited/allowed to engage at that level.

[griffin]

Hasbro aren't ingratiating themselves with the fandom with this. Even if you weren't into third party stuff, you just lost your biggest online community. Hasbro, instead of being dicks, could have had a quiet word behind the scenes to the TFW owners and they would have lowered the profile of non-official stuff instantly. Instead, as you said Griffman, they shut down one of, if not the biggest TF resource on the web.

This doesn't make me want to rush out to support Hasbro.

Who is starting the petition to send to Hasbro to bring back TFW?


The other thing is that Hasbro and TFW have had a good relationship, they had direct interviews with them when they brought out this quarters financial report. whether it was just TFW or they were part of a larger teleconference, it's still clearly a good releationship if they are invited/allowed to engage at that level.

That's the unusual thing about this.
It's as if someone high up has forced the issue, without giving a warning first. As a warning would have resulted in TFW side-lining the unauthorised stuff like we do... which would still appease the fans, without headlining it as news (getting to the point of 1 out of 3 or 4 news postings being non-Transformers items) and upsetting someone at Hasbro.

I've looked around and none of the other major American sites or dealers have been shut down, so there has to be some specific reason or ulterior motive in play (hence the possible FunPub factor, trying to shut down their competition of TFCon by forcing Hasbro to shut down its operator TFW2005).

[Paulbot]

Or it is just a server migration issue.

I foresee so much legal speculation, anti/pro-Hasbro, anti/pro-3rd party and ruined forever declarations that I might just stay way from the TF Internet for a week.

[MayzaPrime]

Or it is just a server migration issue.

I foresee so much legal speculation, anti/pro-Hasbro, anti/pro-3rd party and ruined forever declarations that I might just stay way from the TF Internet for a week.

Just stay on this site Paulbot... Its the best anyway :D

But wow! :eek: if Hasbro have shut the site down it seems like a massive knee jerk reaction.

[griffin]

The scary thing about this is that there is no definite timetable with resolving this. It could be back in a day, it could be a year... it could even be permanent.

And I feel sorry for the thousands of fans who are active members there, trying to log in with no idea what is going on, and no back-up plan in place to know what is going on. (something I've always worried about, so at least we have the twitter and yahoogroup as a backup notification... and a facebook page run by some of our senior members)

Think of all the hundreds of fans doing transactions on that site that are now up in the air.

Something so insignificant in the grand scheme of things in the real world having an impact on so many people... it really makes you think about what happens when a big website suddenly disappears instead of slowly dying off.


I'm going to check in with the Hasbro people tomorrow, to see if anything has filtered from Hasbro America about this... and to see if there is something more significant behind this, like if it is something more global and if it is something we need to worry about here.
Just be prepared for ANY possibility, including being told to remove the unauthorised toys section if we are warned of meeting the same fate if we don't. (it might be unlikely, but always be prepared for any possible situation)

[griffin]

Or it is just a server migration issue.


This is what I'm hoping... but if it was, they would have sent out a notice, email or tweet about it. Particularly since they don't really have a quiet time like we do (2-4am) which is when I do maintenance or backups to be the least disruptive.

[Lord_Zed]

Or it is just a server migration issue.

I foresee so much legal speculation, anti/pro-Hasbro, anti/pro-3rd party and ruined forever declarations that I might just stay way from the TF Internet for a week.

No doubt whatever happened will become clear in time. In the meantime let's go nuts!

http://sportsmonger.com/Pittsburgh/wp-content/uploads/sites/8/2013/09/bruce-lets-get-nuts.jpg

[Bidoofdude]

I was about to ask if anyone was experiencing similar issues to myself with TFW. That was a quick and hard blow. If TFW has indeed been shut down, you're looking a massive fan-rage apocalypse. It's pretty lucky we have our own boards here. It must suck for those who don't have any other community besides TFW to fall back on. So much was invested into TFW. Collection threads, discussions, billions of photos that may be gone.

This is a big dick move on Hasbro's part. Having a quiet word would have done the job.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Barring further news I'm going to pull an Ockham's Razor and go with "actual server migration issues" until more information comes out and/or time passes.

That said, methinks there may be a certain amount of 'closing the stable door after the horse has bolted' if the rumours are true, and it's definitely a big loss/blow to 'the fandom' if so, since as has been mentioned TFW is/was quite the major online TF-fan page. Similarly, the nature of the internet is that new sites can spring up just as quickly as HTT could try to shut them down, so if - again, if - it is a HTT-inspired move then it seems like more trouble than it's worth in the long run.

[griffin]

Well, it looks like Hasbro just started caring. TFW2005 is down right now, because it "got hit with several DCMAs from Hasbro at around 3am this morning. Apparently the site had been "Overenthusiastically promoting products not licensed or produced by Hasbro that were protected properties." Things are not looking good right now. That's all I can say at this time." Big news.

Where were the quotes from? Is there a source you can link to, or just private messages making it through the grapevine?

[Oberon Sexton]

Guess who's back. Back again. Shady's back. Tell a friend.

[griffin]

In other words, TFW are back up.

I wonder why they didn't give some warning to being offline during the transfer.

[griffin]

Where were the quotes from? Is there a source you can link to, or just private messages making it through the grapevine?

Never mind, I found someone quoting a post that doesn't exist anymore (http://www.toyark.com/where-tfw2005-162587/#post574316).

It's good to hear that this wasn't the end of TFW, and my suspicious mind over the timing certainly made today very interesting.

I think they moved to a Canadian server (someone with tech skills may be able to tell for sure), so if that is true, I wonder if they moved it after threats by Hasbro, so that Hasbro then can't use the more powerful American laws to shut them down.

Either way, they didn't remove any 3rd Party stuff from their news page, so either it was never an issue, or now they are located the site so that they can keep doing it.

[Trent]

There's nothing quite like some wild speculation thrown around in the absence of facts. If nothing else, it lets our imaginations run wild :D

[Sky Shadow]

Oh - well that's a lot less exciting. It was quite quick-witted for someone to make up the DCMA thing. Very weird that they didn't warn people it was going to be down. Sorry for the confusion!

[Lint]

Well that was a lot of huffing and puffing.

I'm only a TFW visitor on an as-needs basis but I noticed they now that a news feed option that excludes 3rd party stuff. Is that new? It's not the default though.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Nah, that's been there for ages. They've got one that excludes Movie news too.

Re. the DCMA thing, I checked out their Facebook group last night and there was a comment from someone claiming a mate of theirs was an admin at TFW, and their friend had told them about the DCMA thing. So yeah, PMs through the grapevine.

[Tfiguy]

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

[Sky Shadow]

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

We know they're not.

[Bidoofdude]

Does anyone know if Repro labels are officially liscenced?

I'm pretty sure the official stance is Hasbro/Takara are not in the market for stickers and have no problem with reprolabels.

[Tfiguy]

I'm pretty sure the official stance is Hasbro/Takara are not in the market for stickers and have no problem with reprolabels.

I swear that I saw some official Transformer labels on Chimungmung the other day. They actually had Transformers written on them. But now I can't find them

[Tober]

I swear that I saw some official Transformer labels on Chimungmung the other day. They actually had Transformers written on them. But now I can't find them

Supposedly the Ocean Design sets are licensed.

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/transformers-masterpiece-47/masterpiece-prowl-and-wheeljack-sticker-sets-181401/

http://www.bigbadtoystore.com/bbts/menu.aspx?menu=21&category=10315

[philby]

Since my 10 second google search didn't give me an answer, I thought I would ask here: Why don't any of these companies like Fanstoys etc become licensed?

- They obviously have talented designers and engineers
- They found a niche market which is happy to pay a lot of money for the products
- Instead of trying to create new characters and creations they are focussing on existing ones so they want to use Transformers
- In a lot of cases they are making things that for whatever reason can't or won't be made 'officially' by Hasbro/Takara

If they could get officially licensed it may help bring costs and prices down by access to Hasbro/Takara's production and shipping methods, they could have official names and likenesses instead of changing things just slightly enough to be a little different, it would erase any morally or legally grey areas, they could combine knowledge and communication about plans and ideas.


There is obviously a market for higher end aimed at adult collectibles, if Hasbro/Takara are not as interested as much themselves why not join forces and add to their market share instead of watching the other companies essentially take money from them?

Is either side interested? I know there have been statements or quotes from official sources saying they are aware they exist, keep an eye out etc but the questions focus on 'what do you think about what these companies are doing?/what is your stance?' and not 'have you thought about working together?'.

I guess if the 3rd party companies remain independent then they keep, for lack of a better term in this case, 'creative freedom' but then they run the risk of things like losing sales potentially because an official item is announced which would directly compete.

Bit of a ramble but I didn't notice any info on it, what are your thoughts?

[Trent]

Since my 10 second google search didn't give me an answer, I thought I would ask here: Why don't any of these companies like Fanstoys etc become licensed?

- They obviously have talented designers and engineers
- They found a niche market which is happy to pay a lot of money for the products
- Instead of trying to create new characters and creations they are focussing on existing ones so they want to use Transformers
- In a lot of cases they are making things that for whatever reason can't or won't be made 'officially' by Hasbro/Takara

If they could get officially licensed it may help bring costs and prices down by access to Hasbro/Takara's production and shipping methods, they could have official names and likenesses instead of changing things just slightly enough to be a little different, it would erase any morally or legally grey areas, they could combine knowledge and communication about plans and ideas.


There is obviously a market for higher end aimed at adult collectibles, if Hasbro/Takara are not as interested as much themselves why not join forces and add to their market share instead of watching the other companies essentially take money from them?

Is either side interested? I know there have been statements or quotes from official sources saying they are aware they exist, keep an eye out etc but the questions focus on 'what do you think about what these companies are doing?/what is your stance?' and not 'have you thought about working together?'.

I guess if the 3rd party companies remain independent then they keep, for lack of a better term in this case, 'creative freedom' but then they run the risk of things like losing sales potentially because an official item is announced which would directly compete.

Bit of a ramble but I didn't notice any info on it, what are your thoughts?

Hasbro aren't interested.

[Tober]

From scratchy memory, the licensing fee for an official Hasbro convention was $50K. So you can begin to imagine why Fans Toys etc wouldn't want to have to pay fees for actual toys. And they wouldn't need any approval from Hasbro.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

^^ This/these, and also...

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy is more than capable of putting out the same level of quality releases as 3rd Party crews, but 1) they have to take into account child safety laws/regulations, and 2) HasTakTom price points. If, say, FansToys were to 'join up' with Hasbro, and some (let's say American) more-dollars-than-sense parent bought an 'adult collectible' TF for their spoilt kid, who then tried eating said collectible and choked to death, that'd be Lawsuit City for Hasbro.
If a 3rd Party outfit were to join the Official HTT Family, they'd have to both design their works to be dumb-child-proof, and (as likely as not) to make their production cost palatable for mass-release. Parts count, drop-test-survivable, moron-proof, paint apps...all of these factors would be pretty limiting to someone wanting to make high-end transforming robots for theoretically-mature, adult collectors.

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy has the design talent and resources to put out 3rd-Party-quality (and better) stuff already, but it's just not cost-effective - from a design and/or legal point of view. There's more money to be made by making mass-release, inferior-quality toys (which, to be fair, I often quite enjoy) to sell to a wider market than there is in making high-end, often-quite-delicate toys to sell to a niche market...which is what 3rd Party groups do. They don't have to worry about child-safety laws, and they don't have to worry nearly as much about product cost...they can just focus on making good toys.
In the same way as it's not in HTT's interests to 'adopt' 3rd-Party producers' works into their own portfolio, it'd also be really limiting to 3rd-Party producers to become Official.

[Lord_Zed]

As stated above licensing costs a fortune and Hasbro and co are more restricted, so I doubt there would be any cost benefit to the consumer. If you consider the limited amount of licensed 3rd party products that have been released like that Minerva and Alpha Trion figure they've all been rather pricey for toys that don't transform and reportedly not the best quality either.

Similarly I'm not sure the 3rd parties need worry as much about official Hasbro releases cutting into their sales, so much as they have to worry about all the other 3rd parties also releasing collector aimed toys of the same character.

[philby]

^^ This/these, and also...

Hasbro/Takara-Tomy is more than capable of putting out the same level of quality releases as 3rd Party crews, but 1) they have to take into account child safety laws/regulations, and 2) HasTakTom price points. If, say, FansToys were to 'join up' with Hasbro, and some (let's say American) more-dollars-than-sense parent bought an 'adult collectible' TF for their spoilt kid, who then tried eating said collectible and choked to death, that'd be Lawsuit City for Hasbro.
If a 3rd Party outfit were to join the Official HTT Family, they'd have to both design their works to be dumb-child-proof, and (as likely as not) to make their production cost palatable for mass-release. Parts count, drop-test-survivable, moron-proof, paint apps...all of these factors would be pretty limiting to someone wanting to make high-end transforming robots for theoretically-mature, adult collectors.



why would they have to do that suddenly if they aren't now? why don't they have to do that now? nothing would have changed.

I guess I'm thinking they could just continue to do what they already do, but make it 'official'. that licensing fee does sound pretty steep, but it would be a one-off cost wouldn't it or at least not be every year or something?

how cost effective are these 3rd party companies then? i know hasbro/TT could probably do these figures if they wanted to and think it isn't worth it, but if these companies are doing it then it seems to me that there's something there.

[GoktimusPrime]

philby: Some 3rd party Transformers products are officially licensed. These include...
* Revoltech TFs
* CM Corps (Ginrai, Minerva, Hi-Q, Nightbeat)
* Super-deformed Fortress, Grand and Brave Maximi
* Gigantic Action Mega Zarak & Black Zarak
etc.

I completely agree with you that the 3P KO makers should go legit and purchase licence from Hasbro. Also, in Australia, the licensing cost is $10,000. That's how much companies like JayJays would've paid. At the end of the day, we all vote with our wallets. If you object to unlicensed third party toys, then just don't buy them (I don't). :o

[philby]

i know about the revoltech ones and stuff cheers, i meant more like scoria and quakewave etc.

i'm more just curious. i don't feel as...strong...about it as you and some others do and i personally wouldn't go as far as calling some of them knock-offs. that's just me though.

hercules and green giant to me are not knock off's because in my mind a knock off is reverse engineering or stealing the mold or something, like the 'fake' MP prowl and lambor etc. hercules and green giant are to me more like modern re-interpretations of a character for which there isn't an 'official' counterpart or alternative. it is someone else's character though.

if some of these companies could come to agreement with hasbro/TT it seems like everyone would win. hasbro gets more money from licensing and new sales. they don't lose as much as the other companies are still making the product but maybe give them access to bigger buying power/production means. fans win because they get more 'masterpiece' style figures or combiners or whatever else which are official. 3rd party companies win because they can get access to maybe r&d or technology, new distribution and aren't in a legal grey area any more.

[llamatron]

Hasbro / Takara are very unlikely to give up control of the core function of the brand - the Transforming action figures. It's their bread and butter and it's likely to stay in-house for a long time. Selling licenses would dilute their product.

[griffin]

Hasbro / Takara are very unlikely to give up control of the core function of the brand - the Transforming action figures. It's their bread and butter and it's likely to stay in-house for a long time. Selling licenses would dilute their product.

Bearbricks are transforming, and so are the Sentinel pens... so there is now precedent of licenses being issued to 3rd parties to produce and sell converting Transformers (as of last year). It's just very hard to design and produce converting toys, and then have to go through all the hefty added expenses of safety testing, trademarks/patents, and licensing (something that the unlicensed people don't have to spend money on), so probably no one in the past has been able to do it before on a major scale.

[llamatron]

True, but those are "novelty" items that are very distinct from mainline Transformers (i.e. existing products being produced by Hasbro/Takara). The vast majority of current unlicensed third party Transformers are designed to look and operate in a manner functionally identical to the Masterpiece and/or Generations lines.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Leaving aside the semantics debate over the technical VS common-use definition of 'Knock-Offs'...
why would they have to do that suddenly if they aren't now? why don't they have to do that now? nothing would have changed.

I guess I'm thinking they could just continue to do what they already do, but make it 'official'. that licensing fee does sound pretty steep, but it would be a one-off cost wouldn't it or at least not be every year or something?

how cost effective are these 3rd party companies then? i know hasbro/TT could probably do these figures if they wanted to and think it isn't worth it, but if these companies are doing it then it seems to me that there's something there.Almost but not quite: one thing would have changed, and that's that Hasbro would have become officially affiliated with the 3rd party products.
And thus, open to legal culpability if little Timmy got one, broke it (the aforementioned 'safety standards' bit), and then hurt himself trying to eat the non-child-safety-designed shards of his Hasbro-affiliated Wrist-Cuttor transforming action figure.
Sure, 3rd party groups could really benefit from Hasbro's production scales and market reach, and there's niche-market money to be made for Hasbro, but ultimately the money to be made is peanuts for Hasbro (unless they reduce costs on their newly-acquired "Masterpiece Shockwave" somehow, most likely with reduced parts-count and/or paint apps, i.e. reduced 'quality'), and/or with the possibility of legal hassles for non-mass-market production values.

From a 3rd-Party point-of-view, it'd involve making a hefty payment to have Hasbro tell you how you had to limit your designs, either for customer safety and/or for reducing production costs so Hasbro could sell more toys.
I'm pretty sure someone like Joe Kyde (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Joe_Kyde) could easily top most of what, say, Maketoys puts out if he didn't have to worry about price-points and idiot-proofing his designs, but that's not Hasbro's market strategy. They make most of their money by selling toys to 10-year-olds and parents-thereof, while 3rd party groups go after high-end collector adults who are willing and able to spend stupid amounts of money on "the best" toys they can get without having to worry about child safety standards. If they became 'part of Hasbro' then they'd have to start factoring in all that stuff, because either Hasbro's accounting division would complain about making less profit per unit than their "Fast Action Puncher Bumblebee with New Hat" line, and/or Hasbro would be open to lawsuits when some moron American kid got shot because he went out waving formerly-Apollyon-now-MasterPiece-Megatron-Mk.2 and some overzealous cop shot him thinking it was a real gun.
TL;DR version: if 3rd party groups teamed up with Hasbro, then they'd become officially legitimate, and that would open them - and Hasbro - up to lawsuits and cost-benefit-type production values.

I get where you're coming from and I agree in principle, but in practice it's not really in either Hasbro's or the various 3rd party groups' interests (or ours) for them to 'join forces' like that. It's more risk for less money and/or design freedom.

As for the level of money involved, from what little I know about it, it seems that there's enough money in the 3rd Party scene to keep a bunch of small-time companies going, but nowhere near the mass-release profits Hasbro gets from its mainstream toylines. It's like McDonalds VS a local high-quality hamburger joint - the local place might make enough to get by, maybe even expand their menu a little, but it's still peanuts compared to what McDonalds makes, and it's not really worth their time and energy to try for that particular niche burger market.

[philby]

thanks for the info! I'm curious as to why Maketoys etc don't need to do safety testing. Or do they just choose not to? If it is clearly labelled and marketed to adults or something then couldn't Hasbro just skip it for them if they already skip it?

[5FDP]

thanks for the info! I'm curious as to why Maketoys etc don't need to do safety testing. Or do they just choose not to? If it is clearly labelled and marketed to adults or something then couldn't Hasbro just skip it for them if they already skip it?

They choose not to. It keeps the cost down. Hasbro is a global brand and with that comes an elevated responsibility so they'll do their due diligence when it comes to safety requirements.

[GoktimusPrime]

i'm more just curious. i don't feel as...strong...about it as you and some others do and i personally wouldn't go as far as calling some of them knock-offs. that's just me though.
They are actually knock offs though, as knock off is a product which uses the distinctive likeness of someone else's intellectual property, but isn't actually a replica of it. A counterfeit is an unauthorised replica. I know that some people use "knock off" as a synonym for counterfeits, but technically and legally there is a difference between the two.

[Sharky]

I like to think of it as a form of fan art, commissioned fan art if you will, there is no denying the engineering or the asthenic of one of these pieces of plastic art is as good as any sketch some artist whips up and makes a print of and sells/gives away at a convention. if you want to claim infringing on someone's intellectual property then fan art is just as big an infringer as a Fan Art toy company

[GoktimusPrime]

I agree, and this is also why I personally don't purchase fan art.

[Lord_Zed]

They are actually knock offs though, as knock off is a product which uses the distinctive likeness of someone else's intellectual property, but isn't actually a replica of it. A counterfeit is an unauthorised replica. I know that some people use "knock off" as a synonym for counterfeits, but technically and legally there is a difference between the two.

They are indeed knockoffs, though "knock-off" usually carries a connotation of an imitation of inferior quality offered for a lower price. In the case of these "knock-offs" they are usually of equal or higher quality and sold for a higher price, given that I can understand why the word doesn't feel like a perfect fit for some.

[tinyJazz]

I like to think of it as a form of fan art, commissioned fan art if you will, there is no denying the engineering or the asthenic of one of these pieces of plastic art is as good as any sketch some artist whips up and makes a print of and sells/gives away at a convention. if you want to claim infringing on someone's intellectual property then fan art is just as big an infringer as a Fan Art toy company

You just reminded me of this really great post:

Is Fan Art Illegal? (http://chrisoatley.com/fan-art/)

This is an SDCC seminar by a copyright lawyer who used to work for Paramount Pictures. It's like an hour long but really good. If you don't have the time the main points are summarised in the article/post under the video.


Basically:


Do you own the character in question?

Yes? Do what you please!
No? You have no legal right to profit from work featuring characters without permission from copyright holder.
No? You have almost no rights to create such works not for a profit, either.


I still buy and commission fan art though :D the artist alley at botcon was the best!

[reillyd]

I don't see all third party stuff as infringing on IP, because there are some third party products that are licensed (ex gokin, for example, who do some superb work but at exceptional prices), and Hasbro are seeking to license third party producers who distribute their product through Shapeways (have a look at the MLP stuff that's already there). Takara do the garage kit licenses, so I'm not entirely convinced that third party producers couldn't make an effort to seek licenses.

And there are plenty of third party products (swords, guns, etc) that are compatible with transformers (eg 5mm handles) and are original IP. I'd much prefer to support new product and new designs than a rehash of an existing character, especially with the diversity of stuff Hasbro makes in the Generations line. Plus as much as we complain about HasbroAU pricing, is still substantially less than third party products.

I'll give you an example. FansProject did their Retro-Future Glaciallord line (a combiner mammoth and other prehistoric animals). They did cel animation style art reminicient of generic 80's anime, and an original box design. I bought it in a snap, and I think its my favourite "third party" product out there. Even the "Scramble-City" style combiner ports didn't infringe Takara IP, because the patent in these has expired and entered the public domain.

Sadly though its not widely available or reissued, so I suspect it wasn't a great seller.

[GoktimusPrime]

Judging from pictures, I wouldn't say that Glacialord is a knock off, rather a unique product that someone's made which happens to be compatible with a nearly 30 year old Transformer design. This isn't too different from IBM compatible computers (and components) or generic brand automotive parts (e.g. an oil filter that is compatible with a Toyota Corolla engine that isn't manufactured by Toyota).

I personally have no issue with such toys. They're not my thing, but I don't object to them at all. :) Heck, Hasbro's been known to make their toys cross-compatible with toys from other companies; e.g.:
* G2 Gobots (CR/RiD Spychangers) -- they're compatible with Mattel's Hot Wheels launchers and tracks. This isn't explicitly mentioned or marketed anywhere on the toy packaging, but the toys are all the same width as standard Hot Wheels cars, and their free-spinning axle gimmick allows them to conserve momentum and be launched and "fly" along any Hot Wheels sets.
* Those Movieverse non-transformable cars and track sets. Same concept as G2 Go-Bots, only worse cos they can't even transform (although they do come w/ sets so you don't have to go and buy Mattel's).
* Built-to-Rule and Kre-Os, which are of course, compatible with Lego.

I don't mind other companies making their own transforming robot toys, so long as they're distinctively original and not blatantly ripping off Hasbro's IP.

tinyJazz: I don't know if you're already aware of this, but the sales of an unlicensed fan comic was what killed BotCon Japan in 2000. The comic book was "Transformers Chronicles" by Ichikawa Hirofumi. Takara ordered Ichikawa to stop selling the books, but he was allowed to give them away for free. But this meant that Ichikawa made a substantial personal financial loss; he was initially selling the comics to break even, not to make a profit. The Japanese fan community lashed out against Takara because of this, and Takara had to work hard to repair strained relations with the fans; which culminated in Takara hiring Ichikawa to work for them in an official capacity (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Hirofumi_Ichikawa) (e.g. eHobby exclusive G1 profiles, Binaltech art and stories etc.).

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/avatar_ironhide.jpg
A beautifully toy-accurate G1 Ironhide from BotCon Japan 2000's Cybertron Chronicles by Ichikawa Hirofumi

[UltraMarginal]

if Toyota sells a Toyota brand air filter for their Corolla is not the unlicensed third party generic filter effectively a KO?


I personally prefer the term Independent toy manufacturers for companies that make unlicensed transformers product.

as mentioned above, 3rd party should really refer to companies producing licensed transformers product on behalf of Hasbro and Takara, of which there is plenty of.

Indie toy makers then refers to companies that make new toys based on HasTak IP (Fansproject Function X line for example) and completely new toys that only use a concept/mechanism that is now publicly available (Fansproject Glacial bots). This really also should refer to Accessories manufactured to go with licenced toys (Igears kup head for example, probably their best product)

Other items which are direct rip offs of transformation or even just a slight modification to the official product should fall into the KO bucket.


But as others have stated above, hasTak and the Indie companies probably wouldn't benefit much from the expense of working together and HasTak probably don't see a cost benefit in taking on Indie companies in court. They are taking them on in other ways, constant masterpiece releases (I personally wouldn't want them to release these any faster otherwise I'd have to start budgeting some out) and the new combiner wars line, which is pretty much part of their overall Generations line going forward.

I have some 1st party product, some 3rd party product and some Indie product and I like it all. I just wish I had the space and the money to buy more of it all.