Did Madman Field Blend the Remastered G1 DVDs?

[ndjamena]

I have all 5 sets of the original MadMan DVD releases of Transformers G1 which I've had for years but am not at all happy with, or in fact with anything Madman released at the time. I've attempted to re-encode the things using AVISynth and X264 into something I could play on my WDTV but it turns out at the time of release Madman had a habit of converting the frame rates of all their animation series through a process called field blending. They even used the worst imaginable kind of field blending which winds up blending every single frame with one of it's neighbours.

It's not noticeable throughout most of each of the episodes which were mostly animated in 12p (meaning each field is blended with a duplicate of itself), but every now and then (generally during action sequences) the frame rate will shoot up to 24p and suddenly there's not a single unblended frame to be found. There's no way of undoing that kind of damage using any kind of filter I'm aware of, so I want to replace my Transformers DVDs and was wondering if the remastered versions are free from field blending or if I should commit to ordering an NTSC version from Amazon instead.

[Paulbot]

I'm willing to have a look for you on the remastered dvd, but how exactly do I tell if it's field blended?

The remastered DVDs have used some different DVD compression to the original set so there might be some quality loss instantly apparent. For example what was 7 dvds for Season 3 and 4 in the original release is not only 3 dvds.

[DELTAprime]

I'm not sure what your talking about. The only thing Google comes up with for what a field blend is wine related.

You have to remember with TV content we are in the PAL region, but Transformers was made in the US where they use NTSC which means both the frame rate and resolution are different. In order for Madman or anyone else to transfer content from NTSC to PAL a frame rate change and resolution change is normal on DVD as it is SD and follows the PAL and NTSC standards. This creates artefacts in the encode, it is unavoidable unless you make a Blu-ray which can change it's frame rate to 24 (film), 25 (PAL), 30 (NTSC) and 60 frames per second as the content dictates.

If you want NTCS produced video without any conversion artefacts you need to buy the US DVD or a Blu-ray if it exist.

I should probably also point out that I tried ripping my Madman release of the Remastered version to play on my Xbox One via DLNA and found that MakeMKV could not separate the episodes and the image was stretched out to a 16:9 image.

[ndjamena]

How do you tell? Well if you go through the video frame by frame you should be able to see that some of the frames are blended (especially when there's fast movement). They generally don't animate that way. It's difficult to tell the difference between good field blending (where they leave at least one of each original frame unblended and interpolate frames in between) and the madman kind, but since any kind of frame/field blending at all effectively halves the resolution of the video, if the remastered version doesn't consist entirely of sped up, pseudo-progressive frames I think I'd be better off with the NTSC version (which can be fixed through a simple ITVC).

(Actually, Transformers doesn't seem to be as bad as some of the other examples I have. Maybe that's because they didn't bother speeding it up before blending all the fields.)

[ndjamena]

I'm not sure what your talking about. The only thing Google comes up with for what a field blend is wine related.

You have to remember with TV content we are in the PAL region, but Transformers was made in the US where they use NTSC which means both the frame rate and resolution are different. In order for Madman or anyone else to transfer content from NTSC to PAL a frame rate change and resolution change is normal on DVD as it is SD and follows the PAL and NTSC standards. This creates artefacts in the encode, it is unavoidable unless you make a Blu-ray which can change it's frame rate to 24 (film), 25 (PAL), 30 (NTSC) and 60 frames per second as the content dictates.

If you want NTCS produced video without any conversion artefacts you need to buy the US DVD or a Blu-ray if it exist.

I should probably also point out that I tried ripping my Madman release of the Remastered version to play on my Xbox One via DLNA and found that MakeMKV could not separate the episodes and the image was stretched out to a 16:9 image.

Yes, I'm aware of all that. Ben 10 Onmiverse was converted from NTSC 24p to PAL 25p through simple speed up, which is the way I like it. Frame blending is evil, especially since Transformers was originally animated as 24p. Stargate SG1 was ITVCed to 24p the sped up (with the remaining 29.976fps sections blend converted) and that's a much better method of frame rate conversion than what madman used. I admit that I am annoyed that all the DVDs I bought before I knew better are permanently ruined, but at some point I'd like to try to fix it as best I can and I'm wondering at the moment how the frame rate of the remastered edition was converted.

(I separated the episodes with MKVMerge. I have a powershell script that will extract the chapters using MKVExtract, guess which chapters mark the end of an episode and create a command line to pass to MKVMerge so it can perform the cut.)

(Field Blending is also called Frame Blending, no one's given me a better name for it and so far no one has corrected me when I use it.)

[CBratron]

I believe Ozformers has found it's first videophile.

[ndjamena]

I believe Ozformers has found it's first videophile.

I've spent too long on the VideoHelp Forums and forgot other people have no idea what I'm talking about.

I don't know if this will work but:
<iframe src="https://www.flickr.com/photos/92900013@N03/15566225767/in/photostream/lightbox/player/" width="75" height="75" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen webkitallowfullscreen mozallowfullscreen oallowfullscreen msallowfullscreen></iframe>

https://flic.kr/p/pHwYAT

Anyway, if you can see that it shows four different frames (or at least four different fields passed through NNEDI3(fields=3)). The images are from four minutes twenty four seconds into the first episode where Jazz is ascending on a rising platform. A and D are pretty much fine, although you can still see shadows of neighbouring frames if you look hard enough, but B and C are obviously two pictures blended together and in fact there's an image in between B and C that no longer exists in a non-blended form.

https://flic.kr/p/q12U6w

Transformers Animated is simply sped up so has fully progressive frames. Beast Wars was itvc'd then sped up, where the itvc process couldn't find enough matches, fields were dropped. Beast Machines (not madman I know) simply had fields duplicated to fit on a PAL DVD. Whatever frame-rate conversion Head Masters went through defies explanation and is horrifying to contemplate. My old copies of Armada were fully progressive, but I gave them away when the new ones began being released. I almost bought the new releases last time JB had a 20% off sale but they were missing 2 of the 6 box sets. I'm assuming the new copies of Armada and the rest of The Unicron Trilogy are simply sped up, I'll be pissed if they're not.

But that leaves The Remastered G1 sets in La La Land. I have no idea if they're blend converted or not. And I figured you guys would be more likely to have a MadMan set you can check for me than the international community on the VideoHelp forums.

[Paulbot]

Is that shot of Blitzwing from the opening credits? I can check the Jazz on the platform scene, but I don't think the remastered season one set includes season two's opening credits anywhere.

[DELTAprime]

I believe Ozformers has found it's first videophile.

What about me, the guy that hates the constantly changing aspect ratios and film medium on AOE's 3D Blu-ray?

But I think we have found our biggest videophile.

I've never noticed this issue in content. But i do see blurriness in non-120hz or better LCD panels. Of course 120z or better TVs then have other problems *cough*Soap Opera Effect*cough*.

Anyway I can't see any Frame Blending in Blitzwing's transformation in the intro of the first episode on season 2's first disk. But there are other issues that might annoy you. It's not actually a HD Remaster. What they actually did was take 2 separate sources of video and edit them together. You go from what appears to be Kid Rhino's DVD video to what appears to be the Broadcast tapes that Madman used on their last DVD release.

[Sinnertwin]

i love lamp.

[millhouse]

Of course 120z or better TVs then have other problems *cough*Soap Opera Effect*cough*.

I'm with you. Just bought a new Sony TV yesterday and spent 30 minutes researching settings for it and disabling any of the CinemotionFlowSoapOperaHell options!

[ndjamena]

Is that shot of Blitzwing from the opening credits? I can check the Jazz on the platform scene, but I don't think the remastered season one set includes season two's opening credits anywhere.

Yup, that's the Blitzwing from the opening credits, I added it because I thought it would give more impact then an unidentifiable block of metal. It shows the same problem though, the frame in the middle doesn't exist on it's own so it's impossible to properly reconvert the episodes to their original frame rates. There's blending everywhere throughout the episodes, but I thought it was important to point out where frames have simply ceased to exist because of it.

Almost a day and I'm still none the wiser. I'm still trying to remember where I saw all the remastered sets lined up nice a neatly recently...

[DELTAprime]

So while we are on the topic. I have a MKV I made of season 1 disk 1 of Madman's Remastered set. How do I change the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3 as it should be and then split the file up into episodes?

[ndjamena]

What about me, the guy that hates the constantly changing aspect ratios and film medium on AOE's 3D Blu-ray?

But I think we have found our biggest videophile.

I've never noticed this issue in content. But i do see blurriness in non-120hz or better LCD panels. Of course 120z or better TVs then have other problems *cough*Soap Opera Effect*cough*.

Anyway I can't see any Frame Blending in Blitzwing's transformation in the intro of the first episode on season 2's first disk. But there are other issues that might annoy you. It's not actually a HD Remaster. What they actually did was take 2 separate sources of video and edit them together. You go from what appears to be Kid Rhino's DVD video to what appears to be the Broadcast tapes that Madman used on their last DVD release.

Hmm, I missed this. I'm not concerned about defects from the actual source, that's unavoidable and is just a part of the series at this point. Can you see any blending AT ALL? I'm assuming you're watching it on a TV and I can't ask you to watch it through VLC and check for interlacing. So if it's the best answer I'm going to get "there is no blending" will have to do.

I'd have replaced my discs long ago if I thought the remastered versions were free from this disease, if they are then that's problem solved. (The original Ben 10 is another story, it's Amazon or bust for them...)

[DELTAprime]

Hmm, I missed this. I'm not concerned about defects from the actual source, that's unavoidable and is just a part of the series at this point. Can you see any blending AT ALL? I'm assuming you're watching it on a TV and I can't ask you to watch it through VLC and check for interlacing. So if it's the best answer I'm going to get "there is no blending" will have to do.

I'd have replaced my discs long ago if I thought the remastered versions were free from this disease, if they are then that's problem solved. (The original Ben 10 is another story, it's Amazon or bust for them...)

Tried it both in the Mac's built in DVD player app and my Xbox One's Blu-ray app and paused in multiple places and it looks nothing like what you showed off in the images. I'll check in VLC later.

[ndjamena]

So while we are on the topic. I have a MKV I made of season 1 disk 1 of Madman's Remastered set. How do I change the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3 as it should be and then split the file up into episodes?

16:9? It's one of those is it. DVD's store aspect ratios in two places, one set is stored in the IFO files, which is what every DVD player on earth will read obey, the other place is in the MPEG2 stream itself, which DVD players simply ignore. Most of the time the stream AR matches the AR in the IFO, but since it's redundant information it doesn't have to. Of course MakeMKV removes the actual streams from the VOBs and leaves the IFO files behind so what you end up with is a file with the stream AR which is sometimes wrong.

http://www.videohelp.com/tools/DVDPatcher
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/Restream

Either of these should be able to modify the AR in the stream. They're old programs so they may not work very well with modern MKVs, so you'll need to use MKVExtract (MKVCleaver/gMKVExtractGUI) to extract the video as an m2v first then run the programs on the m2v files. That should fix the AR issue. After that you need to remux the video back into the file using MKVMerge. Make sure when you remux the file you set the video's aspect ratio to 4:3 (768, 576) because like a DVD an MKV stores it's ARs in two places.

If you want to split the file the easiest way is to use MKVMerge GUI (MMG), load the file into it, then switch to the Global Tab, choose Split Mode -> Split Before Chapters and enter the chapter numbers you want to split at. Assuming they haven't been renamed you should be able to see the chapter numbers by looking at the file using MediaInfo or Loading the file into the MMG chapter editor.

[ndjamena]

Tried it both in the Mac's built in DVD player app and my Xbox One's Blu-ray app and paused in multiple places and it looks nothing like what you showed off in the images. I'll check in VLC later.

(I missed an AND between read and obey.)

It's looking promising, it sounds like its been IVTC'd (inverse telecined or detelecined) and then sped up. So I NEED to buy it!

If you manage to look at it with VLC, make sure deinterlacing is turned off and remember that pressing the 'e' key advances by a single frame. If it turns out to be interlaced, that's not a good sign. You should turn deinterlacing on at that point (yadif x2 is best) and try your best to figure out what's going on.

[DELTAprime]

(I missed an AND between read and obey.)

It's looking promising, it sounds like its been IVTC'd (inverse telecined or detelecined) and then sped up. So I NEED to buy it!

If you manage to look at it with VLC, make sure deinterlacing is turned off and remember that pressing the 'e' key advances by a single frame. If it turns out to be interlaced, that's not a good sign. You should turn deinterlacing on at that point (yadif x2 is best) and try your best to figure out what's going on.

I know what regular bad old interlacing looks like and I can't see any signs of it on the Madman release in VLC, looks really nice for a 30 year old sometimes poorly animated TV show.

I have the original release of Transformers Cybertron from Singapore. Thats pretty bad interlacing until you turn deinterlacing on in VLC. I'm actually considering buying the new Shout Factory release of Cybertron to replace it in the hope it's not interlaced.

[Fungal Infection]

LOUD NOISES!!!

[Paulbot]

Okay had a look at the Remastered Season 1 discs 1 and 2 in VLC player. Deinterlace is off. I don't see anything like you saw with the frames merged together. The animation frame-to-frame looks "whole" to me, no ghosting/blurring that I can see in each scenes I looked at (including transformations and that same Jazz scene). Each frame looks like a complete animation frame, like you could screenshot it and it look right.

Codec information from VLC says:
MPEG-1/2 Video (mpgv)
Res 720 x 576
Frame rate: 50
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUB

[ndjamena]

Okay had a look at the Remastered Season 1 discs 1 and 2 in VLC player. Deinterlace is off. I don't see anything like you saw with the frames merged together. The animation frame-to-frame looks "whole" to me, no ghosting/blurring that I can see in each scenes I looked at (including transformations and that same Jazz scene). Each frame looks like a complete animation frame, like you could screenshot it and it look right.

Codec information from VLC says:
MPEG-1/2 Video (mpgv)
Res 720 x 576
Frame rate: 50
Decoded format: Planar 4:2:0 YUB

Ok, I'm happy now. Two something years of wondering is over, I'm buying them next chance I get.

Now all I need is either Blaster, Perceptor or Defensor to show up in a movie somewhere, or even in one of the animated series... Or anywhere at all... Please!!!

[Sinnertwin]

i pooped a hammer

[5FDP]

i pooped a hammer

Cut back on the fiber dude.

[ndjamena]

Cut back on the fiber dude.

I should think that means he's taking too many iron supplements.

[ndjamena]

I should think that means he's taking too many iron supplements.

GOD DAMN IT, ARMADA IS FIELD BLENDED!! WORSE, it seems to be the same atrocious perversion they used on the Japanese series'! I suppose Cybertron and Energon have suffered the same fate. That's over $200 NOT well spent.

A single field will affect several frames in either direction, either that's deliberate, it's been blend converted twice, or they blended frames, not fields (or an unholy combination thereof.)

So now I'm NOT happy. They're half the price on Amazon too. :mad:

[Blew]

I have just stumbled upon this thread while researching information on the Shout Factory NTSC release of the Japanese Headmasters series.

I have both the Metrodome (PAL region 2) and Shout Factory (NTSC region 1) releases of the US Transformers series 1-4. The Shout Factory release is far superior, and because it's US NTSC there is no field blending, which is a result of the telecine process in converting from NTSC to PAL. So buy the NTSC Shout Factory releases if you want the best in Transformers US Series 1-4:
http://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Complete-Peter-Cullen/dp/B004NJC0JI/ref=sr_1_3

I have spent a lot of time in tuning the ripping of the Shout Factory releases by trial and error using Handbrake, so that I can watch them on my tablet during my commute. I've now ripped them all and they look excellent.

I want to do the same for the Japanese Headmasters series, but I only have the Metrodome release and there is very noticeable field blending due to the telecine process. I'm looking at buying the Shout Factory release of the Headmasters series to resolve this, which is NTSC, so theoretically this should involve no telecine:

http://www.amazon.com/Transformers-Japanese-Collection-Ikuya-Sawaki/dp/B004UFE2XM/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

Can anyone confirm this? Does anyone know if the Shout Factory release has any improvement on the picture quality apart from the obvious telecine?

[UltimateGalvatron]

GOD DAMN IT, ARMADA IS FIELD BLENDED!! WORSE, it seems to be the same atrocious perversion they used on the Japanese series'! I suppose Cybertron and Energon have suffered the same fate. That's over $200 NOT well spent.

A single field will affect several frames in either direction, either that's deliberate, it's been blend converted twice, or they blended frames, not fields (or an unholy combination thereof.)

So now I'm NOT happy. They're half the price on Amazon too. :mad:

Armada and Cybertron are AWESOME, and Energon is ok.

[DELTAprime]

Just a note for anyone interested in the Prime Blu-rays. Shout Factory's versions actually have a lower bit rate and noticeably worse picture quality than the Madman version. Unfortunately Madman only released one season on Blu-ray and if you intend to rip you will have to split the episodes on the Madman Blu-ray, which seems to be common across all their TF DVD's and Blu-ray.

[Paulbot]

Just a note for anyone interested in the Prime Blu-rays. Shout Factory's versions actually have a lower bit rate and noticeably worse picture quality than the Madman version.

More reason to be annoyed that Madman only release season one...

[jabz]

Does anyone know if the Madman Remastered G1 complete dvd set have the crappy Rhino animation errors and the horrible added sound effects by Rhino/Magno Sound & Video?

This set http://www.madman.com.au/catalogue/view/14680

[Bidoofdude]

Does anyone know if the Madman Remastered G1 complete dvd set have the crappy Rhino animation errors and the horrible added sound effects by Rhino/Magno Sound & Video?

This set http://www.madman.com.au/catalogue/view/14680

I think someone mentioned way back that they do have the extra sound effects.

[DELTAprime]

The remastered edition does not have Rhino's soundtrack. As for the animation in season one they took the higher image quality Rhino version and when an animation error occurs switch the video to a lower image quality broadcast tape. As a result it goes from rather good image quality to kinda blurry image quality all the time in season one. Not sure if it's less noticeable or what but there's no real issue from season two onwards image quality wise.