STL's Journey into BWs

[griffin]

From this topic:
http://otca.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=3060&view=getlastpost

Discussion about Beast Wars cartoon.

[STL]

Okay, I resumed watching BWs today with my little sister and we got half way through season 1 again. She finds it least interesting than G1. I think that's to do with the turnover of characters and the nature of the cartoon is above her (she's 6). The cartoon in my mind is for at least those in grade 6 upwards. Any younger and patience will disappear.

For myself, watching season 1 again felt almost like a drain. Yes, there were the good parts that did bring a cheerful laugh but overall it did feel more tedious getting through them all. The animation style definitely is very flat after a little while.

[kup]

Its always hard to rewatch something as long as a season when it is still fresh in your mind. I had a similar experience with Beast Wars myself only because I already knew what was coming next. When you rewatch it after a year it becomes better.
________
Iolite Vaporizer Review (http://vaporizer.org/portable)

[STL]

Aftermath

Far exceeded my expectations. I anticipated that the episode would place the Maximals in great jeopardy and Primal would re-emerge in his new Transmetal form to save the day. It defied all expectations and provided a throughly entertaining, fresh and intelligent plot.

So much to like about this episode.

My favourite one liner. Ever.: "Same product, new packaging. Losers."

Other good moments:
- Rhinox emerging and grabbing Dinobot by the throat telling him he isn't in the mood for this. It's a great sublte illustration of Rhinox's power.
- Rattrap and Cheetor getting acquainted with their new forms
- Dinobot's immediate grab at the leadership
- Blackarachnia's duplicitiy: I can't believe myself how she talked her way out the situation. She really should not have been able to but the fact that she did made her all the badder for it. I don't think there's a character with this degree of duplicity in Transformers lore. Starscream was a schemer but he was overt. And Megatron seemed foolish at times for letting him live. Here though it's perfectly explicable why Megatron retains her.
- And boy is Tarantulas getting creepier. He's the creepiest 'con I've ever known.

Some quibbles:
- Megatron brings only Waspinator? Why? Where's Scorponok and Terrorsaur? Did they get blown up in the transmetal wave? It seemed too stupid of him to do so given his previous smarts on the battlefield.

One of the other remarks I'd like to make is how well the episode went without Primal. I think we will never see a cartoon without Prime but here it really works and it gives other characters an impetus to make sense of the situation.

In all, a great start to Season 2. If this is the level of quality that is maintained, this will surely be the best season of a TF cartoon ever.

[Paulbot]

Scorponok and Terrorsaur fell into the lava when the quantum surge hit, so Megatron only has Waspinator left to bring with him.

[GoktimusPrime]

This level of quality isn't maintained - it's exceeded! :D In other words, strap yourself in cos you ain't seen nothing yet! ;)


- And boy is Tarantulas getting creepier. He's the creepiest 'con I've ever known.
You haven't seen the half of it yet. Tarantulas gets a lot creepier... as I've said before, there is a LOT more to Tarantulas than meets the eye! ;)


- Megatron brings only Waspinator? Why? Where's Scorponok and Terrorsaur? Did they get blown up in the transmetal wave? It seemed too stupid of him to do so given his previous smarts on the battlefield.
Scorponok and Terrorsaur were killed when the quantum wave hit the Predacon base - they fell into lava.

[Paulbot]

Okay spoiler alert but yes you never see those two again. But remember when you first watched it and Terrorsaur was mutating as he fell into the lava and he had a Transmetal toy so you thought maybe he'd come back. I didn't want to crush STL's hopes!

[GoktimusPrime]

Scorponok had a Transmetal toy too. TM Scorponok, Dinobot and Blackarachnia were released as McDonalds Happy Meal figures. :)

[STL]

Okay spoiler alert but yes you never see those two again. But remember when you first watched it and Terrorsaur was mutating as he fell into the lava and he had a Transmetal toy so you thought maybe he'd come back. I didn't want to crush STL's hopes!

Drat. I assumed the lava was just liquid they could surive and give them impetus for having the new transmetal form. Pity.

So I see Megatron has a need for new troops now. A big need.

[roller]

i think after a few million years transmetal terrorsaur and scorponok will be found by some human archaelogists

[kup]

i think after a few million years transmetal terrorsaur and scorponok will be found by some human archaelogists

A distinct possibility in some future comic.

What would rock beyond this world is if they ever make an Animated cartoon that links G1 into Beast Wars. Such as the signing of the Pax Cybertronia, the reformatting of the Transformers (Using Micromaster Technology, I presume) and what happened to many of the "retired" bots and Cons.

I know that there is a comic that covers the above somewhat but I have never read it as it was a Club Exclusive and very unattainable.
________
Milf chinese (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/770/chinese/videos/1)

[GoktimusPrime]

So I see Megatron has a need for new troops now. A big need.
Yup! :D Just like G1 (comics and movie) BW has a tendency to off certain characters before introducing new ones.

It was actually more essential to do that in BW than it was in G1. In G1 older characters/toys were offed in some way (or in the case of the G1 cartoon - simply forgotten!) so that they could focus the stories on newer toys. Because CGI is actually really freaking expensive, Hasbro was more vigilant in telling Mainframe which characters they needed to remove when in preparation for which toys they wanted to insert into the story. Having said that, Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio, much like Simon Furman, generally make a really good effort in trying to explain the disappearances and appearances of characters. Terrorsaur and Scorponok's deaths were lame, but I believe it was because Hasbro didn't give them much time to write a better way... I think it was like after they'd finished making Season 1, Hasbro told them that they wanted Terrorsaur and Scorponok gone within the first episode of Season 2, and with so many other things happening in the story as it is they just didn't really have the time to write them a more interesting ending. Fortunately this doesn't happen too often.

[kup]

Yeah, wait till you get to the end of this season. You have seen nothing yet compared to what is coming.
________
FORD SKYLINER (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_Skyliner)

[STL]

Coming of the Fuzors part 1:


I haven't been well for the past 2 weeks and really should've made more headway into season 2 than I have. I'm really regretting it now b/c as I get better, my time is going to dry up again...

The continuation of the Maximals without Primal continued to impress. Rattrap attempting to fill Primal's shoes provides not only a good measure of comic relief but also a reminder of the burdens of leadership. I think it makes for interesting stories without Primal as while the comic medium has delved into it with greater frequency, it's not something we've seen in the many iterations of Transformer cartoons.

The introduction of the new characters.
- Quickstrike is plain as day. I see him almost as anotehr Inferno minus the loyalty factor.
- Silverbolt clearly will become a Maximal. Having seen the toys, I know that for sure and the writers sure made it obvious.

Neither imo add much to the mythos. I'd have much preferred either Terrorsaur or Scorponok than Quickstrike. It's an interesting toy though. I do appreciate how the malfunctioning of the pods helps to explain their eerie forms. There's a nice logic to it.

New characters aside, it was the riveting conclusion to part1 that left me hanging on the edge of my seat. I'll get around to the next ep tomorrow morning hopefully! The way the scene was set up, the arming of the Maximals, there was sense of grandeur, scope and epic to this tale.

Tarantulas definitely is creepy and a plotter. I think its underlined by the fact that Megatron knew Tarantulas had betrayed him but pretended to be oblivious to that fact and instead welcomed Tarantulas back into Predacon ranks. Tarantulas proves to be every bit as sinister by maintaining a psi-link with Blackarachnia. (I'm starting to feel sorry for her)

Dinobot abusing poor Waspinator was muito fun. The greatest moment of hilarity was when Waspinator made an offer of partnership to Dinobot. Poor 'bot has no idea how out of league he is.

Another great episode and I look forward to more of the same.

[GoktimusPrime]

The introduction of the new characters.
- Quickstrike is plain as day. I see him almost as anotehr Inferno minus the loyalty factor.

Quickstrike and Inferno are simple but fun and lovable characters. :)


- Silverbolt clearly will become a Maximal. Having seen the toys, I know that for sure and the writers sure made it obvious.

Neither imo add much to the mythos. I'd have much preferred either Terrorsaur or Scorponok than Quickstrike. It's an interesting toy though.

They all play their parts in the mythos. Unlike Wheelie, removing either of these characters would alter continuity. ;) And as you said, Quickstrike is like Inferno - simple-minded brute - but unlike Inferno, is without Inferno's die-hard loyalty... they play more on that later. ;)

And Silverbolt... yeah, he'll add a lot more to the mythos, don't you worry.


I do appreciate how the malfunctioning of the pods helps to explain their eerie forms. There's a nice logic to it.
Indeed. The Fuzors were a really odd toy concept that could've easily flopped - most of them peg-warmed for a really long time. But the show did do well by attempting to justify their forms.

Ditto with the Blentrons - different origins, but equally interest attempt at justifying their inherently Fuzor forms.


I think its underlined by the fact that Megatron knew Tarantulas had betrayed him but pretended to be oblivious to that fact and instead welcomed Tarantulas back into Predacon ranks.
Oh hell yes. And Tarantulas knows that he's faking it. Megatron knows all about Tarantulas... and although Tarantulas isn't fully aware of how much Megatron knows about him, he knows that Megatron is highly suspicious of him and knows some of the truth about him (in reality Megatron knows the whole truth). They continue to play this very interesting political game throughout this series where they mutually maintain this pretense that they both know is a load of bollocks (but they maintain it to prevent anyone aside from themselves from getting wind of it).

[STL]

Coming of the Fuzors part 2

Not as good as I hoped it'd be. It actually felt down like a major let down. For me, this is in large part due to the epic feel at the end of the previous part (the fading to brown as if this is a battle that will forever be etched in our memories) but the animation is too weak in this episode. The battle scenes weren't done well enough to back up the epic feel that you felt you were getting. It left me really disappointed.

Mind you, the return of Primal lwas done quite well though with the smokeclearing to reveal him. However, the animation of him on the surfboard looked... unnatural to say the least.

It did seem a bit much though that Primal turned the tide on his little lonesome with his massive new weapon. While I do like Primal's new look, his old form is much more appealing.

Blackarachnia's a sneaky little witch, isn't she?

I almost thought that thsi was where Dinobot would bite the dust. I was wrong though. Probably something to do with that epic feel that I was left with from the 1st part.

Some good moments with Rattrap on speeding along and Dinobot riding him. However, by the end, it felt more of a relief to get there cos I was sorely underwhelmed b/c my expectations had been built so high. I think in large part this is due to the limitations in the animation.

Tangled Web

The first thing upon reading the title that hit me was an old Spider-Man story followed by that anthology series they had awhile back. Really warmed to this one.

I was glad to see Blackarachnia free of Tarantulas grasp. It gives her more autonomy and keeps me guessing what she'll do next. A good trait. She really is one of the most interesting Decepticons (or Predacons) in Transformer lore. I believe she's suppsoed to bite the bullet at some point and I hope there's more of her to enjoy in this seres before I see that.

The bad part is I know which of the important characters die along the way. The good part is I don't know when and that keeps me on the edge of my seat.

I'm curious about how long before Megatron realises Tarantulas dirty little doublecross. It's interesting that Megatron has no choice but sends the two spiders together. If he separates them, it gives them each more room to plot. However, if he keeps them together, there rivalry will keep them fighting each other instead of him. Really quite smart of Megatron.

That's what I really like about the series, there's more if you look and think about it.

Oh, and I love Quickstrike's infatuation with Blackarachinia. Poor bugger.

The one thing at this stage I'm finding is I'm starting to adore the Predacons a lot more. They're slowly pushing aside my favourite Maximals b/c there's that degree of unpredictability and duplicity to them (with the exception of Waspinator of course).

The Maximals almost seem like they have no direction to go in. They're almost reactive and less interesting now.

[kup]

Don't worry, soon enough the Maximals will have A LOT of direction due to coming circumstances. The same with the Preds. Keep watching and you will soon see why we rave so much about this series, you are close to it.
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TC BY MASERATI (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_TC_by_Maserati)

[Thanatos]

To be honest, Megatron in BW (before he went all psychotic in Beast Machines) is quite possibly the most brilliant villain I've ever seen in a series. Scheming, much more in the know than anyone and a very strong leader. Not only does he live up to his namesake, he surpasses it 10 fold.

[i_amtrunks]

To be honest, Megatron in BW (before he went all psychotic in Beast Machines) is quite possibly the most brilliant villain I've ever seen in a series. Scheming, much more in the know than anyone and a very strong leader. Not only does he live up to his namesake, he surpasses it 10 fold.

Most brilliant, and still manages to lose. (unless you count the SPOILER"draw" in Beast Machines)

So yeah, the perfect villain!

[kup]

Most brilliant, and still manages to lose. (unless you count the SPOILER)

So yeah, the perfect villain!

Not really, the series does manage to keep the victories and defeats on both sides fairly balanced, maintaining the threat as very real. The Maximals for example do get their butts seriously kicked by the Preds in future episodes.

And no more spoilers please!
________
Chrysler Hemi-6 Engine History (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi-6_Engine)

[STL]

Maximal, No More.

I'm kind of loss here. Why does Dinobot go back to the Predacons? Is it some trick? There''s several scenes where he's quite committed (ie. having to think twice about killing Rattrap) and so on. Some good moments though but it was kind of confusing. The only rationale I have for it is Dinobot has a scheme in mind...

Other Visits Parts One and Two

Pretty mediocre first half. It was mostly setup but there were two key highlights.
1.) The Maximals deciding to go on the offensive. Just a badass moment.
2.) Megatron knowing he can't kil Tarantulas.
Apart from that though it did feel rather pedestrian. Oh and mighty lame-o is the Tigatron/Air Razor r/ship. They hold hands and that's pretty much it, they're an item. *pukes*

Part Two was heads and shoulders superior to the first part. So much happened I hardly believed it was an episode. Megatron gaining control of the ship, the Maximals taking Rhinox and Dinobot back and then getting back to launch an assault. Tarantulas working with the Maximals. I like him. He's creepy.

The other thing is that surfboard Primal has is neat. At first I felt it was corny and lame but it does open up new visuals in fight sequences and I think the animators are getting better at capturing that.

It was quite strange with this episode. I fell asleep watching the 2nd part here and had to rewatch it afterwards. I thought I dozed off b/c it was mundane. How wrong I was.

Bad Spark

Now this surprised me. I'd actually been reading a fan comic series (Shane Anderson's at TFW2005 which is highly recommended) and it spotlighted Blackarachnia and silverbolt as an item. I was like "huh? Stupid idea. Never would work. Some fan lost his marbles." Then I started watching this episode and realised it was actually part of BW continuity!!!

And did I like it? Hell yeah. Silverbolt was pretty meh to me initially. Those little medieval horns that sounded every so often he had a heroic thought was starting to make him really irksome. But played against Blackarachnia, he really works and is twice as interesting as a character. It's chivalry and boundless optimism vs. pragmatic and sneaky. It's an interesting relationship and in my mind the best fembot-malebot r/ship I've had the pleasure of following.

I do hope more gets developed here. I felt Blackarachnia's growth as a character skyrocketed here. She is definitely the most interesting fembot ever. It's interesting how she progressed from wanting to doublecross him to falling for him.

And i loved Megatron's response to the forming r/ship.

The romance issues aside, my fave Tarantulas getting slagged? Nope, that won't do. I look forward to him coming back...

The Predator X stasis pod was s definite improvement on the "oh another Transformer b/c of a stasis pod" gimmick. I liked the backstory and the acknowledgement of Starscream's sparks uniqueness. It does a lot to explain why he returned in G1. It's a moment that had me feeling giddish in a fanboy type of manner.

Rampage will be an interesting addition. I look forward to see where the character goes.

This was an excellent episode in my mind. One of the best.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Now having said all that, I've come to the conclusion that Beast Wars is a terrible cartoon. No, I'm serious. I just think the writers wrote way above the intelligence of the intended audience. And that's a bad thing. Criticise Cybertron/Energon as I may, I at least understand where it's coming from.

Beast Wars in its 2nd season is proving to be inaccessible. The plots are dangling and require the child to remember key plot developments from episodes ago. The storytelling is dependent on previous stories.

Yes, I appreciate that this is what makes this series so thoroughly enjoyable to older fans but ultimately I can't help but feel it's sorely misdirected. This series was doom to failure in my opinion and I think Season 3 would have been cut due to this. Season 1 had more standalone plots but now everything is weaving into each other way too much.

As good as this is, it's not for the young ones. And I think that in that sense it is a failure. I can't see any kids (the intended audience) being that patient. You really need to be in the age bracket of 14 upwards to enjoy this.

[kup]

Maximal No More:

During the begining of the episode, Dinobot looks at the single remaining moon that should look very familiar and says "Megatron was right, he is close to a great Victory". The details of that great Victory will come in only a few episodes but given the revelation of where and when they are, should very much make it clear that Megatron has the means to succeed and believe me, those means will blow you away!

Edit for clarity: At the end of the episode he also confesses that "Megatron is close to a great Victory and I wanted a share in it". The details of that victory are still to be revealed but the whole series up to this point has been building towards this moment. If you recall from the first episode of Season 1, Dinobot deserted the Predacons because he thought that Megatron had brought them to the wrong planet, destroying the only reason that he was loyal to him. Now his reasons for joining the Maximals in the first place have proven to be wrong and Megatron now has the confirmation he needed to execute his original plan for success. Be ready for a HUGE revelation in coming episodes.

Other Visits Parts One and Two

I felt similarly to you. I enjoyed the episode but did not see it as too memorable overall although it is indeed an very good episode. However most of it doesn't make much of an impact(except for a couple of crucial scenes such as Tigatron and Air Razor's obduction) when compared to other episodes of Season 2.

Bad Spark

Personally I have always found the Silverbolt and Blackarachnia romance a bit on the ham side but that's just my preference. The Prototype X experiment was indeed an attempt to replicate Starscream's seemingly immortal Spark and the result was a psychotic being which is responsible of a great atrocity in a Maximal colony. However there is a lot more depth to Rampage that first seems, one of the coming episodes will show that as well as develop Silverbolt's character.

--------------

I honestly don't think that Beast Wars is a terrible cartoon for children. I think its great how it probokes thought and does not attempt to patronize the audience by adding over execive simiplifications or too many kiddy elements. It keeps a good balance in my oppinion. This also succeeds at generally appealing to kids and adults alike.

I dont see anything inaccessible about Beast Wars 2nd Season. It is my favorite Season of that show and I think its fantastic. Most past plot points relevant to the episode that occured in previous episodes are often explained in dialogue and often enough one can follow the main current plot and what they are attempting to do even if you dont know the full details of it.


Yes, I appreciate that this is what makes this series so thoroughly enjoyable to older fans but ultimately I can't help but feel it's sorely misdirected. This series was doom to failure in my opinion and I think Season 3 would have been cut due to this. Season 1 had more standalone plots but now everything is weaving into each other way too much.

I believe the above statement to be incorrect. Beast Wars was a massive success that brought back Transformers after having faded into nothing. It continued strongly throughout the series and the only reason it was cut short was due to Hasbro's decision of wanting to take the franchise to a completly different direction (Beast Machines, technorganic). Larry DiTillio, Bob Forward and even Simon Furman had said that only upto the very end of Season 3 of Beast Wars they were expecting to be heading into a Season 4. Only Hasbro wanting to change direction in the last minute caused it to end (Damn you Archer! :( ) and then Transformers went into Beast Machines which actually has a much more complex plot than Beast Wars as it relies too much on philosophical and Spiritual aspects for its plot progression.


As good as this is, it's not for the young ones. And I think that in that sense it is a failure. I can't see any kids (the intended audience) being that patient. You really need to be in the age bracket of 14 upwards to enjoy this.

I think that a more intelligent show not appealing to kids is very subjective. When I was a kid, I personally adored series that offered continuity in the show by picking up plot points from previous episodes. I found it to be a huge respite from the 'single episode' story lines that were common then and have become common today. As a result I used to sherish the rare moments when an 80s cartoon would acknowledge some event that happened in the past. G1 Transformers episodes that did that are among my favorites.

Later in the 90s when I was 11, X-Men animated came out which followed a very similar story telling style that you see in Beast Wars with the writers seeding the show with plot points destined to come together in an epic story later. I loved that as it provided world building and continuity.

Later Beast Wars satisfied me with the form of story telling which I find great as you all know.

I personally never had issues with seeded plot points in a series or making references to past episodes, I love that even at a young age. When Star Trek: The Next Generation came out (I was 7 years old) I then became a Star Trek fan because it employed that form of story telling. Sure I did not always understand everything that happened but I still got a thrill how the writers were concerning themselves with building a virtual world through their stories than just one off episodes. At the dawn of the 21st century I stopped being a Trek fan because the franchise had fallen into mediocre crap but that is another story.

So its very subjective of how a more developed overall story would appeal to kids. Some may apreciate it while other would not. Also keep in mind that kids these days are not used to anything half resembleling an intelligent cartoon, specially those who only have free to air Australian television as their only source since all they broadcast are single template episode cartoons (every episode is the same as the last) such as Pokamon and others . So kids these days are not prepared or used to watching a highly developed show such as Beast Wars could be bit of a shock, something to get used to as you have to pay attention and follow the plot in order to understand it.

As kids we were groomed into more intelligent shows as from the 80s up to the late 90s, there was a clear progression in the development of complexity and depth within cartoon shows, sure 80s still suffered from simplified plots but you did see a clear attempt at trying to break from it with various degrees of success (eg G1 Season 3 tried to do some world and universe building). Unfortunately from 2001 and onwards, studios and franchises have made a clear attempt to dumb things down into single episode story runs or repetitive template episodes such as the Japanese children cartoon series (Pokamon) with highly simplified plots. Of course there are exceptions to this, 2003 Ninja Turtles is an excellent show and althoug He-Man 2002 almost fell into the simplified plot trap in Season 1, Season 2 was fantastic. Almost everything else has been very simplified comedy shows which are amusing in their own right but unfortunately dominate everythng such as Billy and Mandy, Attomic Betty and so forth. The flood of repetitive Japanese 'Battle game' cartoons also dont help.
________
CHEAP GLASS BONGS (http://glassbongs.org/)

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm kind of loss here. Why does Dinobot go back to the Predacons? Is it some trick? There''s several scenes where he's quite committed (ie. having to think twice about killing Rattrap) and so on. Some good moments though but it was kind of confusing. The only rationale I have for it is Dinobot has a scheme in mind...
kup already pointed out the rationale behind why he did it - oh but wait, doesn't that throw Dinobot's loyalty into question?! Oh wait - isn't filial loyalty meant to be one of the pivotal morals of Bushido, meaning that his switching to and fro between allegiances in that episode has now questionably jeapardised his honour?! Oh wait, doesn't Bushido also insist on "death before dishonour"?! DUM-DUM-DUUUUUUUHHHMMM! How will Dinobot regain his honour?! ...... you'll just have to keep watching. :D


Oh and mighty lame-o is the Tigatron/Air Razor r/ship. They hold hands and that's pretty much it, they're an item. *pukes*
well that's meant to be part of the tragedy of their relationship... at the very moment they were ready to confess their love for each other, they are brutally separated from each other and abducted by aliens. And swearing to each other that no matter what happens, that they will somehow... somewhere... find each other again... the suggestion that their love will know now bounds - that is incredibly ROMANTIC!

That moment is summed up well by the song "I Will Find You" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4BG5ZeM__g) from "The Last of the Mohicans." (offtopic: this movie contains some of the best realistic martial arts/fighting moves I've ever seen in a movie that didn't have Toshiro Mifune in it)

http://images.tvnz.co.nz/tvnz_images/tv2/movies/wk41_last_mohican_c_two.jpg
"No, you submit, do you hear? You be strong, you survive... You stay alive, no matter what occurs! I will find you. No matter how long it takes, no matter how far, I will find you. I will find you!" - Hawkeye (The Last of the Mohicans)

"So dear I love him that with him,
All deaths I could endure.
Without him, live no life." - Juliet Capulet (Romeo and Juliet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lwvGEhn1Tk))

The story of Tigatron and Airazor's love is truly a tragic one. You'll find out more in Season 3. :) (why are you watching it so slowly? Just give yourself a day and have a freakin' marathon! :D)


The other thing is that surfboard Primal has is neat. At first I felt it was corny and lame but it does open up new visuals in fight sequences and I think the animators are getting better at capturing that.
The surfboard concept is inherently lame, but it's in the toy and they have to show it. And as you've seen, the animators do a good job of that by portraying it as Primal's Flight Mode. His robot mode's assault mode is actually not in the toy's instructions and actually shows that the animators must've sat down and played with the toy and came up with this mode themselves! Hasbro sent them samples of the toys for the animators to do 3D scans which they then render into CG models - hence why the show has such great toy-accuracy. :)

http://www.bwtf.com/bw/tvshow/episodes/seasontwo/cotftwo/17.jpg <--assault mode! (the toy can actually do this!)


Now this surprised me. I'd actually been reading a fan comic series (Shane Anderson's at TFW2005 which is highly recommended) and it spotlighted Blackarachnia and silverbolt as an item. I was like "huh? Stupid idea. Never would work. Some fan lost his marbles." Then I started watching this episode and realised it was actually part of BW continuity!!!

And did I like it? Hell yeah. Silverbolt was pretty meh to me initially. Those little medieval horns that sounded every so often he had a heroic thought was starting to make him really irksome. But played against Blackarachnia, he really works and is twice as interesting as a character. It's chivalry and boundless optimism vs. pragmatic and sneaky. It's an interesting relationship and in my mind the best fembot-malebot r/ship I've had the pleasure of following.

Yeah, they certainly are the odd-couple. :)


I do hope more gets developed here. I felt Blackarachnia's growth as a character skyrocketed here. She is definitely the most interesting fembot ever. It's interesting how she progressed from wanting to doublecross him to falling for him.

You are correct - it is from this point that both Silverbolt and especially Blackarachnia's characters develop at an increased rate.


Beast Wars in its 2nd season is proving to be inaccessible. The plots are dangling and require the child to remember key plot developments from episodes ago. The storytelling is dependent on previous stories.

Yes, I appreciate that this is what makes this series so thoroughly enjoyable to older fans but ultimately I can't help but feel it's sorely misdirected. This series was doom to failure in my opinion and I think Season 3 would have been cut due to this. Season 1 had more standalone plots but now everything is weaving into each other way too much.

As good as this is, it's not for the young ones. And I think that in that sense it is a failure. I can't see any kids (the intended audience) being that patient. You really need to be in the age bracket of 14 upwards to enjoy this.
As kup pointed out, history has already demonstrated that this show was a smashing success which heralded the Transformers Renaissance - something which would not have been popular if kids didn't like it (as they are the overwhelming majority target group for the toyline and show).

Don't worry - kids can remember plot elements from previous episodes. Kids aren't stupid. As a kid myself I grew up reading the G1 comics, which often relied on events in previous issues (moreso with the UK comics which often relied on what was seemingly small/insignificant moments in previous issues). And even as a kid I always noticed the glaring continuity inconsistencies in the cartoon... like the first time I watched episodes like "War Dawn" and "The Secret of Omega Supreme" - my friends and I did talk about the continuity errors in those eps.

Don't worry... kids remember this stuff. I was never into Digimon, but I've heard that Digimon had a continual story arc too. I've seen a little bit of Ben 10 and that also makes references to previous episodes (which I don't get because I'm not a regular viewer) - and a lot of my students are really into Ben 10 and can go on for an entire lunch hour talking about its continuity. And kids are adept at following the continuity of the Star Wars saga.

Kids aren't as dumb as you think... they can follow a continual story arc. :)

And that was the mistake that the G1 cartoon writers made with the post movie seasons... rather than increasing the complexity of the stories to engage a growing audience, they dumbed it down instead. Well, parts of it were made more mature - like giving Transformers a more serious science fiction theme (the EDC, making the Autobots and humans members of some galactic allance etc), but it was off set by some really stupid characterisations (especially Wheelie) and some really poorly written stories (e.g.: "Carnage in C-Minor").

...at the end of the day, history speaks for itself... Beast Wars breathed new life into the Transformers franchise, whereas the G1 cartoon died on its ass.

Now, when you watch Season 3, I should warn you now that the second half of that season will feel rushed - because it was. As you can see already, the writers are setting up complex plot elements - webs within webs - to springboard other stories etc etc. What happened in Season 3 is that after they'd written about half the series, Hasbro told the writers that Season 3 would be the final season and that they needed to wrap everything up. So plot elements that they'd seeded with the intial intent that the show would go on for at least another season (and thus be resolved over that period) were very quickly resolved in half a season... hence the rush.

It's similar to the last 5 issues of G1 where Simon Furman was told that Hasbro was cancelling the G1 run and he had to quickly tie up the story by US#80. Furman knew that he would eventually have to introduce Action Master Optimus Prime - hence why he killed off Powermaster Optimus Prime in US#75, but thought that he had a lot more time to introduce that toy... all of a sudden he was like, "you want me to introduce Optimus Prime? I just killed him off!"

...the same thing happened with Generation 2, although they did get a more advanced warning then and the story was wrapped up a lot better and wasn't really rushed... but Furman feeling the frustration of seeing another Transformer story being prematurely cancelled again expressed his feelings towards Hasbro through the character name "Jhiaxus" ("Gee, axe us!").

http://s90690880.onlinehome.us/jhiaxus/images/uscomics/jhiaxus001.jpg

[i_amtrunks]

I think a strength of the Beast Wars series was that you could miss an episode or 2 in a row and still be in the loop, knowing what was going on, etc etc, but once you watched those missed episodes, watching the rest of the series from then on takes a slightly different take.

[STL]

Maximal No More:

I honestly don't think that Beast Wars is a terrible cartoon for children. I think its great how it probokes thought and does not attempt to patronize the audience by adding over execive simiplifications or too many kiddy elements.


I'm not saying it patronises, more along the lines of difficult to follow.



I believe the above statement to be incorrect. Beast Wars was a massive success that brought back Transformers after having faded into nothing. It continued strongly throughout the series and the only reason it was cut short was due to Hasbro's decision of wanting to take the franchise to a completly different direction (Beast Machines, technorganic). Larry DiTillio, Bob Forward and even Simon Furman had said that only upto the very end of Season 3 of Beast Wars they were expecting to be heading into a Season 4. Only Hasbro wanting to change direction in the last minute caused it to end (Damn you Archer! :( )


Ah, I didn't know the history behind the axing. I assumed like most shows it died away and then hence the radical change to Beast Machines to try something fresh.



I think that a more intelligent show not appealing to kids is very subjective. When I was a kid, I personally adored series that offered continuity in the show by picking up plot points from previous episodes.

X-Men animated came out which followed a very similar story telling style that you see in Beast Wars with the writers seeding the show with plot points destined to come together in an epic story later. I loved that as it provided world building and continuity.


Oh, I have to agree with you. The X-Men cartoon was what fuelled my love for comics and those type of stories. I don't think Beast Wars will surpass it as I don't have the same affection for the characters as I did the X-Men. I have to concede though it was to my later years (12-14) that X-Men got me as a fan for its type of multi-faceted storytelling. However, I always hid it b/c at that age, boys were moving in another direction and liking X-Men or Transformers was frowned upon and a slur against one's maturity.

To this day, I thoroughly enjoy well constructed stories. And that's one of the key reasons I'm coming to adore Beast Wars. The other thing that Beast Wars offers is characters that you can grow with. I think that's the other part of it's appeal unlike other lines. They're not momentary characters with generic archetypes that pass you by. You can watch them grow and change.

It's one of the reasons I liked comics for so long. There was a sense of growth and you watched the characters grow with you. Marvel's initial run of Thunderbolts did exactly that and to this day remains one of my most favourite series of anything ever.



Also keep in mind that kids these days are not used to anything half resembleling an intelligent cartoon. So kids these days are not prepared or used to watching a highly developed show such as Beast Wars could be bit of a shock, something to get used to as you have to pay attention and follow the plot in order to understand it.


I think that's the crux of my complaint. Kid''s, todays especially, aren't prepared for this time of show and I really think that you have to be smart and old enough (12-14 upwards) to appreciate the storytelling. It's a rarity that you'll find a kid with that patience. The endemic problem though is that the majority of 12-14 yr olds start drifting away from this medium because of the inherent social pressures that 12-14 year olds follow (IE. start chasing tail, being "cooler", being a jock)

I'm not saying I agree with the social dynamics here but that's just the way things are. So in my opinion, if 12-14 yr olds are your intended target, I think you're missing the earlier bracket and that Beast Wars isn't a series that has transcended time. It becomes something more of a product of it's time. I'm exposed to a lot of kids and I must say that BW wouldn't surivive these days and I guess that was the reason for me touching this topic to begin with. It's pretty sad that a good cartoon as this would not survive in today's youths eyes for the quality of its stories.

However, children as audience then were perhaps more intelligent than todays. That's a scary thought about what it says about the way were moving as a society. But alas, that's another issue altogether.

For me, Beast Wars is the arguably the best constructed TF fiction ever.

Oh and a clarification. In Bad Spark I believe it was mentioned in words to the effect that the Maximals are a subgroup of the Autobots? Is that right? That adds a lot of interest to me about how Cybertron really was in the Maximal days.

[STL]

well that's meant to be part of the tragedy of their relationship... at the very moment they were ready to confess their love for each other, they are brutally separated from each other and abducted by aliens. And swearing to each other that no matter what happens, that they will somehow... somewhere... find each other again... the suggestion that their love will know now bounds - that is incredibly ROMANTIC!


The thing for me was when did we first get a glimpse of them liking each other? I think early this season as a passing moment? And we hadn't seen them for, I don't know, 5 episodes. Suddenly they're professing a love that knows no bounds? Lame. I think for this to have worked better, we needed some emotional investment in the relationship. One episode would've been enough.

The notion is inherently romantic but it is also inherently lame unless you can get the audience to care about the r/ship.



The story of Tigatron and Airazor's love is truly a tragic one. You'll find out more in Season 3. :) (why are you watching it so slowly? Just give yourself a day and have a freakin' marathon! :D)


I'd love too but the problem is I get little time to myself. I'm looking after my little sister over these holidays and we do a lot during the day. In evening, I've got footy training or gym or a swim. And if it's not that, it's work. Oh and let's not forget the girlfriend before she gets upset about it again. It is pretty hard for me to get an entire day to myself. That's why I often stay up to 3-4am on a weeknight. Just generally it's the only time it's possible to get peace time for reading or watching.

It is a shame though. The lack of time has really destroyed any creative spark in me. There was a moment a few years back where I was going to throw away everything and focus on becoming an artist and do writing courses.



Kids aren't as dumb as you think... they can follow a continual story arc. :)


I do agree they're not as dumb as I think. But I think that today's kids are less patient in their demands and viewing styles. And that's just part of our culture.

The other thing I feel though, as mentioned, is that they only reach the age where they'll be patient enough to follow this series but by that age, they'll be already trying to distance themselves from cartoons.

Back in the mid 90s, I was in my early teens, and I know for a fact I had to actually hide the fact I was watching X-Men. Otherwise, I would've been in for one hell of a bagging. I believe kids today would feel the same.

I've actually never felt comfortable with my geekier tendencies and kept it rather private in my life till more recently. Some people are still freaked out when they learn about this side of me. For many, it doesn't quite compute.

[kup]

Oh and a clarification. In Bad Spark I believe it was mentioned in words to the effect that the Maximals are a subgroup of the Autobots? Is that right? That adds a lot of interest to me about how Cybertron really was in the Maximal days.

More of what is happening on Cybertron during the Maximal era will be revealed in soon to come episodes. The new IDW comics actually build on what is soon to be told about Cybertron. I find the bits they tell us about Cybertron so cool that is one of my biggest gripes that I have with Beast Machines, as they decided to abandon those awesome concepts. Thankfully the IDW comics adds and plays with those great concepts.
________
SHEMALE THAI (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/975/thai/videos/1)

[STL]

More of what is happening on Cybertron during the Maximal era will be revealed in soon to come episodes. The new IDW comics actually build on what is soon to be told about Cybertron. I find the bits they tell us about Cybertron so cool that is one of my biggest gripes that I have with Beast Machines, as they decided to abandon those awesome concepts. Thankfully the IDW comics adds and plays with those great concepts.

From everything I've heard, I'll be ignoring Beast Machines continuity.

I've actually not touched the BW comic from IDW yet. I've been very tempted but Paulbot was good enough to let me know that reading it first would make me lost as well as ruin my enjoyment of the cartoon.

[kup]

Paulbot is right. The comics assume that you have already seen all of Beast Wars and as a result, some of its plot is based on what happens in Seasons 2 and 3. Hell the first 2 pages of 'The Gathering' is a MASSIVE Beast Wars cartoon spoiler.

After you finish watching Season 3 I will also send you a PDF of the Beast Wars prequel comic (2006 botcon comic). It is technically a prequel to the first episode of Beast Wars but you get more enjoyment out of it after watching the whole series due to the little bits and pieces referencing on 'what is to come'.
________
Pornstars soleil (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/881/soleil/videos/1)

[GoktimusPrime]

The thing for me was when did we first get a glimpse of them liking each other? I think early this season as a passing moment? And we hadn't seen them for, I don't know, 5 episodes. Suddenly they're professing a love that knows no bounds? Lame. I think for this to have worked better, we needed some emotional investment in the relationship. One episode would've been enough.

The notion is inherently romantic but it is also inherently lame unless you can get the audience to care about the r/ship.
The build up of their relationship was very subtle and until that moment, unspoken. Tigatron initially formed a relationship with Nightstalker (not necessarily romantic, but they were clearly close) - whom of course was killed leaving Tigatron with a gaping emotional wound. Airazor initially formed a bond with Cheetor, more like a sibling relationship, but afterwards we see moments where Tigatron and Airazor form a sort of mentor-apprentice relationship. There is suggestion that this flourished to something more affectionate in Season 2 - when they were set off to find other fallen stasis pods, you see Tigatron saying, "after you my lady" and there's a feeling of affection between the two characters as they go forth on their quest. Like I said, subtle.

Of course, a lot of time has elapsed while they've been on said quest and it's not unreasonable to assume that they've grown closer since, but neither have openly "made a move" until they found that valley with the beautiful (yet deadly) alien vegetation - it was the sight of that natural beauty that became a catalyst in accelerating their feelings toward each other, leading to the holding of hands and longingly gazing into each other's eyes - then POW! ALIEN ABDUCTION! Take that up ya' gob!! :D

...but never fear, as I said before, the final fate of these "star-cross'd lovers" will be revealed in Season 3 "he which if you with patient ears attend, What here shall miss, our toil shall strive to mend." :)


I do agree they're not as dumb as I think. But I think that today's kids are less patient in their demands and viewing styles. And that's just part of our culture.

The other thing I feel though, as mentioned, is that they only reach the age where they'll be patient enough to follow this series but by that age, they'll be already trying to distance themselves from cartoons.

The way to deal with impatience from kids is:
1/ Timing
2/ Engagement

What the story does is firstly engage the audience's interest, but then switch between scenes and/or change the pace of the story to keep things moving and interesting. Beast Wars doesn't spend too long dwelling on any one plot item and will switch between scenes and between simultaneously running plots and sub-plots to keep things moving and exciting - and they will also use a combination of moments of action and inaction. Believe it or not, but a wall-to-wall robot fight fest is actually pretty boring for a full half hour. Scramble City is proof of that! :)

Very impatient kids can demonstrate incredible patience if what they're doing engages their interest. Ever played Halo with autistic kids who have ADHD? They camp - they will camp for incredibly long times with extreme patience and SNIPE your ass! Aside from the unsporting (cheapness) factor of camping, I just don't have the patience to do that! I'd rather just run around and shoot people!

...I think that if you're any more impatient than that, then you need a good dose of Ritalin. :)


The other thing I feel though, as mentioned, is that they only reach the age where they'll be patient enough to follow this series but by that age, they'll be already trying to distance themselves from cartoons.

Back in the mid 90s, I was in my early teens, and I know for a fact I had to actually hide the fact I was watching X-Men. Otherwise, I would've been in for one hell of a bagging. I believe kids today would feel the same.

I've actually never felt comfortable with my geekier tendencies and kept it rather private in my life till more recently. Some people are still freaked out when they learn about this side of me. For many, it doesn't quite compute.

...as someone who's always been an open and proud TF fan, I just don't understand the whole "closet fan" mentality. Ever since I started liking Transformers I've had many people tell me that I was too old for toys, comics and cartoons and that I needed to grow out of it. As you can see, it's yet to happen. :p

If someone decides that they're too old or "cool" for cartoons, then there's nothing that cartoon writers can do to engage their interest.

My year 11-12 Computer Studies teacher thought that The Simpsons was a stupid kids' cartoon. All the students in my class tried to tell him that it wasn't, but he dismissed our claims thinking that we merely liked the show because we were still kids ourselves and that we would be destined to grow out of it. Yeah right. :p But if someone has that pre-conception about cartoons, there isn't anything that cartoon writers can directly do to engage their interest.

[dirge]

From everything I've heard, I'll be ignoring Beast Machines continuity.


I wont talk you out of that. There are some great aspects to it as a sci-fi series, but it essentially deconstructs the universe created in G1 & BW.

I found myself with an overwhelming sense of "what the f... just happened there?" after it's conclusion. While Beast Wars ends with an ending that ties up the universe created to an extent (I wont say anymore), it reaches what is essentially a fairly natural conclusion - the war evolves rather than the universe being swept out from underneath.



I've actually never felt comfortable with my geekier tendencies and kept it rather private in my life till more recently. Some people are still freaked out when they learn about this side of me. For many, it doesn't quite compute.


While I've never been as... unsubtle as some (such as Gok, but there are others who are worse - anyone who remembers Megatron can attest to that), I never made an effort to hide it. If someone is shallow enough to actually base their opinion of me as a person on my collecting hobby, then I don't believe I'm missing out if they reject me. Most of my friends and workmates down the years either don't especially care or display a passing interest.

Okay, there's one guy at work who has based his opinion of me around my collecting - but then he's supremely proud of the fact that he's lazy... which tells you something about his character.

Coming back to Beast Wars... perhaps the best overall aspect of the series is the fact that the writers make a specific effort to engage those of different ages. There are political one-liners for adults and fart jokes and silly visual gags for younger kids. Few cartoons - indeed few Animated films - are able to pull this off, and not enough try. The Simpsons and Shrek are two notable examples. You talk about the series being too adult in many ways, STL - which is fair enough. But there are quite a few subtler moments which you or I may barely notice, which may leave 6 year olds rolling around hysterically.

[kup]

I have always been geeky and although i am also more subtle than others I am not afraid to express it.

When I was in High school I was liked by most groups of people but I particularly enjoyed hanging around geeks because I found them more interesting and enjoyed having conversations about Star Wars, Trek and general geek stuff. I had earned the respect of the 'cooler' kids through a few events and incidents in my earlier high school years so I never got looked down for being geeky or hanging around who I pleased.

Dirge is right, if people are shallow enough to look down to you for liking Transformers and other stuff, forcing you to hide aspects of your personality to meet their expectations; they are not not really your friends because they cant accept you for who you are.

I am also the odd type who does not feel a 'need' for social acceptance or interaction either. I enjoy hanging around people who I can hold a conversation with and have stuff in common but I prefer to be alone than hang around people who I dislike or have nothing in common with. When I am with 'normal' or 'cool' people I get bored out of my mind by topics such as sports, scoring girls and the like.
________
VOYEUR PRIVATE (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/1160/private/videos/1)

[GoktimusPrime]

The funny thing is that sometimes when you catch up with people who were part of who you thought were the "cool" crowd, they themselves never thought of themselves as cool and also considered themselves outcasts. I think in highschool nearly everyone considers themselves an outcast to some degree... it seems to be more of a matter of perception as to who is "cool" or not. Yes, you do have some kids who go around claiming that they're cool and part of the in-group... but if you actually need to go around telling people that you're cool... you're not. :)

Ah school... such an artificial microchasm of social interaction. It's not until after you leave school (uni, work etc) that you find out what real social interaction is. :)

I keep in touch with my old uni friends more often than I do with any schoolfriends (which is like, almost never). :)

[roller]

my enemies from high school will be getting a little surprise in 10 years

[kup]

I gave my high school enemies what they deserved in Highschool and oddly enough they became my friends afterwards!
________
GANG BANG PARTY (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/601/party/videos/1)

[roller]

In coming of the Fuzors all or most of the stasis pods crashed right?


In the Bw comics idw, Razorbeast doesnt chronally unsynch the pods till season 3, does that mean that all the pods except silverbolts and Quickstrikes were just sitting around in stasis?

[Paulbot]

In coming of the Fuzors all or most of the stasis pods crashed right?

In the Bw comics idw, Razorbeast doesnt chronally unsynch the pods till season 3, does that mean that all the pods were just sitting around in stasis?

Well spoilers A couple more Statis Pods appeared but basically yes most of them just sat around.

[GoktimusPrime]

I gave my high school enemies what they deserved in Highschool and oddly enough they became my friends afterwards!
Just like Son Gokuu in Dragonball! ;)

[STL]

Wow. Just watched Code of Hero... and wow... just wow

[kup]

Now STL, you better be ready, you have entered the DANGER ZONE. The following few episodes will take you to a level of Geekness so high that your heart may stop.
________
ONLINE XXX VIDEOS (http://www.fucktube.com/)

[GoktimusPrime]

Now you see why this is one of everyone's favourite single (i.e.: not a multi-parter) episode of Beast Wars and also why Dinobot is a very popular character amongst fans. ;)

The next episode is "Transmutate" which is a completely stand-alone episode and continuity wise will provide a slight breather (although the story itself is VERY good - it competes with "Code of Hero" as a fan favourite stand alone BW ep - 'Code of Hero' tends to be more popular because it's part of the BW continual story arc whereas Transmutate is completely stand-alone).

After that is "The Agenda" Parts 1-3 which is... well... if you thought Code of Hero was good... eheheheheh... ;D Good luck watching any of that without wanting to immediately watch the following episode! ;)

Mild Spoiler (it doesn't contain specific any information about the story or plot)
"Tripredacus Council now in session." <--highlight to read

[1orion2many]

Wow. Just watched Code of Hero... and wow... just wow

:(SNIFFLE SNIFFLE:(

[klystron]

and i thought i was the only one geeky enough to find that episode a tearjerker.
my wife still gives me heaps about it

[STL]

Code of Hero


Upon watching it again, it wasn't as epic for me as I originally thought it was. It was a good episode but it didn't get me anywhere near tears like the death of Optimus in TFTM.

Anyway, I'm going to begin with quibbles:
- How the slag does Tarantulas reappear? Megatron wanted to kill him at one point, no? And he was just in the previous episode when he got cleaned up by Rampage. I'm sure there's a fan answer somewhere but even so, it's jarring and a real WTF moment.
- Rampage's power levels. Last episode, he's shown trashing Primal, Blackarachnia and co. Now here he is easily dealt with by Dinobot.

I do find this episode good though. I like Dinobot's final words. Very poetic and very true.

It's also almost a relief to see him finally "dead" b/c I knew it would come eventually, it was just a matter of when. I thought he was going to die several episodes ago but that didn't happen and it was killing me if he died in season 2 or 3.

Transmutate


Okay, I understand the premise of the story. But what is there about this episode that everything thinks is so cool? I'm really at a loss here. It did nothing for me. And that had nothing to do with the high expectations I had going in, especially when Demonac and Paulbot kept telling me about how good it was at the meet.

[Paulbot]

I dont remember "kept telling you" as it's not one of my favourites, but it's a good episode and a very original and unique Transformer story. I've not seen it again though since the 90's so I can't really comment.

I know you had expectations that Transmutate was an important character because of the assemble-toy in the BW10 toys, so perhaps learning it was a deformed Transformer might have been disappointing?

[1orion2many]

and i thought i was the only one geeky enough to find that episode a tearjerker.
my wife still gives me heaps about it

:(Dinobot was my favourite TF and they murdered him:eek:. Give it a while and then watch it again STL, you may find that it is as good as you first thought it just may be to short a time between watching it the first and second time;).

[STL]

I dont remember "kept telling you" as it's not one of my favourites,


Oops. My bad, someone was telling me. A case of mistaken identity. Everyone forgets Paulbot's posts. :p



I've not seen it again though since the 90's so I can't really comment.


I don't blame you.



I know you had expectations that Transmutate was an important character because of the assemble-toy in the BW10 toys, so perhaps learning it was a deformed Transformer might have been disappointing?

Not really, I like the concept but it was almost like a sob story. That was my problem with it. And Silverbolt gets quite annoying when he doesn't have Blackarachnia to bounce off of. Those tooting horns are mighty annoying.

Oh, and I also forgot. Remember a few episodes ago when Rampage emerged from his stasis pod and he was mighty powerful and whipping Silverbolt's butt left, right and centre? Here he is going toe to toe. I thought Rampage would've been able to easily dispatch him.

[kup]

Code of Hero:

I have watched this episode several times and it still blows me away at how good this and the strong theme it has, specially for a kid's cartoon.

Rampaged easily defeated:

Rampage basically had one of his bombs blown up inside of him, they are hugely powerful capable of blowing up a mountain top so imagine one blowing up inside him.

When it comes to Tarantulas, if you remember he was found in stasis lock by Silverbolt and Blackarachnia later in the episode. Damaged but not dead. All that he needed to do was either wait for someone to find him and put him in a CR chamber/Repair tank or allow his internal repairs (reason for stasis lock) to 'heal' him enough so that he can get himself to a Repair tank. He wasn't dead and much less damaged than we have seen other characters such as Waspinator in other episodes.

Transmutate:

This is not an action episode or designed as part of the main story arc. It is a stand alone episode with a very strong and somewhat controversial message. Specially when it was aired within the context of a kid's cartoon. That is why it gets so much acclaim, it had a very heavy theme about morality and ethics when it comes to what we call life.

Is it alright to essentially 'euthanise' a being who does not meet our standards of perfection? Both Primal and Megatron wanted to do exactly that, Primal in a more humane manner of course.

Silverbolt and Rampage saw more within this malformed being than either of their two leaders. They saw a being that deserved the right of life. Rampage identified with it as he felt that it was every bit a 'freak' as he was and found an understanding with Transmutate, someone he could relate to and a companion.

Silverbolt wanted to protect its right for life and attempted to demonstrate to others that despite its horrendous deformations and lack of apparent intelligence, it was a life nonetheless that needed to be given a chance to proof itself and protected.

At the end both their opposing viewpoints and fighting over Transmutate causes them to indirectly kill the being which they both had befriended and trying to protect, hence the tragedy.

I don't know of any kid's cartoon out there that end in such tragedy with neither side winning but both loosing with heavy consequences, in this case the life of Transmutate which they both befriended and sought to help in their own way. She died basically because each one of them unknowingly wanted to impose their own will upon the creature despite each of them trying to protect its right for life.

If you look at it within the context of the main story arc, it is meaningless but as an episode alone, it is a work of art when it comes to its storytelling and the many potent messages it has. It also serves as EXCELLENT character development for both Silverbolt and Rampage.

The Agenda is next. I am curious to see what you think of it.
________
SUZUKI GP100 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_GP100)

[GoktimusPrime]

kup's summed it up well. :)


It was a good episode but it didn't get me anywhere near tears like the death of Optimus in TFTM.
Possibly because the death of Optimus Prime was the death of a "flawless hero" whereas Dinobot is a hero who is very much flawed. But it is the character flaws in Beast Wars which makes these characters so much more relatable and real. Optimus Prime is the Fallen Christ/messiah archetype (in the G1 cartoon anyway).



- How the slag does Tarantulas reappear? Megatron wanted to kill him at one point, no? And he was just in the previous episode when he got cleaned up by Rampage. I'm sure there's a fan answer somewhere but even so, it's jarring and a real WTF moment.
If you'd hurry up and finish watching Season 3, then you'd know! :p ;)


- Rampage's power levels. Last episode, he's shown trashing Primal, Blackarachnia and co. Now here he is easily dealt with by Dinobot.
As kup said, he was defeated by his own munition which is very powerful - and still left Dinobot in poor condition.



Transmutate


Okay, I understand the premise of the story. But what is there about this episode that everything thinks is so cool? I'm really at a loss here. It did nothing for me. And that had nothing to do with the high expectations I had going in, especially when Demonac and Paulbot kept telling me about how good it was at the meet.

As kup said, the entire episode is a metaphor to the whole Right To Life and Euthanasia issues.

Transmutate is a Transformer who is born with incredible powers, but is physically deformed and extremely intellectually impaired ("retarded"). As Rhinox said, a combination which makes her (Transmutate is actually androgenous, but since she was voiced by a woman* I refer to her with feminine pronouns) a danger to herself and those around her.

So - with no real chance at having a quality life, does she deserve to live or is it more humane to essentially euthanise her by shutting her down permanently?

And we can see the Maximals at odds here - Primal and Rhinox believe that it would be more humane to shut her down, whereas Silverbolt strongly objects and argues that she has the same right to life as any other living being and that the Maximals don't have the right to decide for her (despite the fact that she is intellectually incapable of making this decision for herself).

The episode also delves deeper in Rampage's psyche - as this very sad and desperately lonely character. Rampage develops a strong kinship with Transmutate because like her, he was was also born different and consequently scorned, isolated and rejected by others. He sees Transmutate as being another being who shares the same sorrow and deep running emotional pain that he's felt constantly since he was created... possibly the only other being he's ever come across that can finally relate to.

Transmutate - innocent in her simplistic outlook on life, didn't understand conflict, but understood emotions and pain. When she saw her two friends - Silverbolt and Rampage - trying to inflict pain upon each other, she gave her life to save them.

Rhinox said that she was barely above the operating level of a drone; but is this true? Intellectually/cognitively maybe - but a mere drone would never have sacrificed itself to save others (unless it was programmed or commanded to do so). And this is a question that we're often asking about people with intellectual impairments, such as autism - and particularly a brand of autism known as Savant Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_savant), one of the most famous people diagnosed with Savant Syndrome is Kim Peeks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQs2itliNbI) (who was the inspiration for the movie Rain Man).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Peek1.jpg/180px-Peek1.jpghttp://www.bwtf.com/bw/tvshow/episodes/seasontwo/transmutate/17.jpg
"If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that" - The Merchant Of Venice (William Shakespeare)

---------
*Susan Blu, who was of course the voice director for BW and the voice actor for Arcee in G1

[STL]

Possibly because the death of Optimus Prime was the death of a "flawless hero" whereas Dinobot is a hero who is very much flawed. But it is the character flaws in Beast Wars which makes these characters so much more relatable and real. Optimus Prime is the Fallen Christ/messiah archetype (in the G1 cartoon anyway).



Don't get me wrong, it's not about Optimus being legendary. There just wasn't the same level of threat and enormity of sacrifice. I conceptually understand the importance of preserving the human race which Dinobot did but visually the sacrifice of Optimus was so much more endearing and courageous.

The visuals didn't give the battle that epic feel. It was a bit jumpy and that's why I feel that the episode isn't as good. The animation didn't live up to what it needed to be.

I love flawed and conflicted characters. I think they remind us a lot about ourselves to a great extinct. I think that it's more tragic that a flawed character sacrifices themselves for something more noble than a character who is perfect b/c it takes the flawed character more introspection to get there.

If I make any sense... lol




If you'd hurry up and finish watching Season 3, then you'd know! :p ;)


Argh... Season 2 is being watched in one session tonight!!! After that Season 3... feels so far away!






As kup said, the entire episode is a metaphor to the whole Right To Life and Euthanasia issues.


As noted previously, I still can't help but feel it's lame. It's about as subtle as a brick. Good premise but way too obvious.

[kup]

I have to disagree about the Code of Hero animation and pace of the battle. I thought it was fantastic as Dinobot kept becoming more and more damaged as he strategically tried to pick off the Predacons one by one. I also liked how he selflessly refused to go into stasis lock knowing that not doing so added with more damage would seal his fate.

I found that heroic in a tragic way as he didn't selflessly do it for the humans but for himself since he had shamed his honor in the previous few episodes.

This episode ranks as one of my favorite Transformers stories ever. Only the Agenda as a whole (all 3 episodes) surpases it.
________
Asian porn (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/4/asian/videos/1)

[STL]

Gah! You guys were right! X-9 Ravage is expensive!!! Gonna have to wait at least till after Botcon payments to seek this fella out! Damn.

[1orion2many]

:(Yes he is but I think I said in earlier posts on the other board once you have seen him in the show you'll want to get him:p:D. Have you seen him yet in the last eps of season 2:confused:.

[STL]

Indeed, I have/am. Mighty impressed am I! Love the accent too.

[roller]

:( i wish i was an STL

[GoktimusPrime]

http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/skit_soundwave.jpg

[kup]

Ravage is all grown up :D
________
Free Xxx Tube (http://www.fucktube.com/)

[STL]

The Agenda

It may be a 3 part story but it's strength as a single story that defines its exceptional quality. Hands down, this is one of the best, if not the best, Transformer stories ever. Comic, novella or film.

The construction of the episode works brilliantly in my mind b/c of the wonderful control of pace of the episodes. There's the necessary troughs after the tantalising highs that rock you back and forth in anticipation. The time factor is always there, there's always that sense of desperation and movement that keeps the viewer on edge.

In terms of story elements:
- Megatron is so bad he's lovable. An all-time favourite of mine now. He's not far behind G1 Megatron and I'd say G1 Megatron only reigns b/c he is the original and his cold ruthlessness stands out more than BWs Megatron's subtle and calculating self. I loved where he said he'd take a gamble. It just shows how aware he is of the situation that he knows it. It's not a gamble b/c he has the heat of the moment decision, it's b/c he's thought it through thoroughly and htere are no other options.
- The trap for Primal and Cheetor. That's just Megatron. So badass.
- Ravage. Wow. Has he evolved. Just the how slick and stealthy nature of him combined with that accent makes him sound so evil.
- Tripredacus Council. They have minor appearance but it's so important to the shaping of the TF world. One scene basically sets the tone for everything. And it reveals even more about Megatron in the process.
- Tarantulas being revealed as part of the Decepticon Secret Police, Damn. That made so much sense. More so it was great to see Megatron's fiery reaction.
- Silverbolt and Blackarachnia. They are just cute and Silverbolt's just so dumb... er... noble. It's quite adoring to watch them banter.
- The Maximals with thier backs to the wall. I really felt it a sense of what they were up against. They're rush against time.
- Silverbolt disobeyed Primal's direct order.
- I'm sure there's more but I'd be here forever if It ried to list them

Integral to my enjoyment is the sense of the universe that Kup has constantly made mention of. I can see that now and the way G1 history is interwoven into Beast Wars continuity elevates both to a new status. It adds a new level of intrigue to the world of the Transformers. It forces us to consider the themes of war and freedom in a new light. The end of the Cybertronian Wars gave us peace but what transpired in the eons since leave many questions to asked. And because those questions are not answered, it makes us marvel and speculate about our Transformers. And that's what holds the attention. It's what elevates this beyond excellent to something that will endure.

One of the things that shocked me in a bad way was how small BWs TFs are compared to G1 TFs. Megatron is virtually the size of Optimus' head! It's a bit disappointing to find that.

As a naysayer to BWs at one stage, I understand and appreciate what people see in the series now. The 1st season got me to like the characters and made it a good cartoon. Season 2 merely elevated it to a level beyond belief.

[kup]

I am glad you enjoyed the Agenda as much as I did. It is one of those episodes that make you proud and rewards you for being a Transformers fan. You get an even bigger kick from the episode if you are a G1 fan!

The reason that the Maximal/Predacon generation of Transformers are smaller is a progressive evolution to tackle the fuel shortage that was prevalent during the G1 era. If you look at their size and events that happened in late G1 (comics), it is not much of a stretch to assume that the Maximals and Predacons are a progression of the Micromaster technology. I too got a huge shock when he was flying over the deactivated Decepticons and he seemed so small and finally when he got to Prime. He is larger than his head, just the angle they had him flying in front of him doesn't help with the sense of scale. In the first episode of season 3 you will get much more of an idea of scale between Prime and BW era transformers.

That is what I love about Beast Wars, much of the stuff you see in the BW cartoon seems to be a progression of concepts and elements seen in G1 and that's why I have a tendency to see G1 and BW as one big glorious whole.

So how did you react when you saw G1 Megatron's message, the Ark, the deactivated G1 Transformers within and finally Optimus Prime?
________
FORD R. BRYAN HISTORY (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Ford_R._Bryan)

[GoktimusPrime]

kup's explanation of the size difference between BW and G1 TFs is accurate.

The following contains spoilers from the BotCon comics (which also contains some BM spoilage) - so don't read it if you ever intend to read them, otherwise read away. :)




---BEGIN---






At the end of the Great War, Hot Rod - now called "Rodimus" was the leader of the Autobots, who won the war thanks to the assistance of a reformed Wreckers (still under the leadership of their last leader, Springer). The Pax Cybertronia treatise heralds a new era of peace on Cybertron which is widely celebrated. This era also sees the birth of the "Maximal Upgrade," which as kup said does appear to be an evolution from Micromaster technology.

In late G1 we saw Micromasters developed on Cybertron as a way of making more fuel-efficient Transformers. The Beast Wars Transformers are portrayed as being more fuel-efficient than their G1 counterparts. When BW Megatron first enters the Ark and beholds the G1 TFs strewn everywhere, notice that he refers to them as "Archaic Energon-guzzlers!". ;)

In the late G1 Japanese toyline and manga, Hot Rod was reduced to Micromaster size during the Battlestars - and by BW/BM era Rodimus is seen as having gone through the Maximal Upgrade, although he retains his old Autobot form, but is the same size as BW TFs... in other words, he's essentially a Micromaster Rodimus. :)

http://cyberstore.decepticon-matrix.com/tf_wreckers_comic3.jpghttp://images.wikia.com/transformers/images/e/eb/Hotrodmicromaster.jpg

---END---

Now, having said all that - another reason why the writers made the BW TFs so small is also because they wanted to make the G1 TFs look like Gods (re: Titans) in comparison with the BW TFs.

The "godlike" nature of the G1TFs is further expanded upon in Season 3. ;)

Oh yeah, don't think you know everything about the truth of Tarantulas yet... there's still more to him than meets the eye! :D

[Tiby]

STL, I'm glad to see you've found what we knew about BW and its place in TF history! There's a reason X-9 Ravage is my avatar!

[STL]

I cannot wait to see Season 3 from everything you guys have said.



So how did you react when you saw G1 Megatron's message, the Ark, the deactivated G1 Transformers within and finally Optimus Prime?

It wasn't so jaw dropping. I knew it was around the corner somewhere b/c of the mentions to G1 I've heard before. What got me though was how is this going to step in yet around G1. They can't change the future as we know. The part that really awed me, like you, was when Megatron flew over the bodies of the Autobots and Decepticons. All the implications and nostalgia it carried where mindblowing.

Also, am I okay to watch the TFCC Theft of the Golden Disc yet as well? Or should I wait till Season 3's end first?

[kup]

I think that its safe to watch the TFCC video but dont expect too much because it is a bit amateurish and hard to follow as there is almost no dialogue.

However to read the Botcon prequel comic 'Dawn of Future's Past' (which is very good), it is best if you finish watching Season 3 as you get more out of it that way.

However do not read any of the recently released IDW Beast Wars comics as they assume that you have watched all of Beast Wars already and therefore are not afraid to throw in references which are spoilers to whoever hasn't seen the full series. 'The Gathering' story also takes place midway Season 3 so its best to watch all of that Season before you jump into the comics.

Another thing to recommend which you can read without spoilers after you finish watching the first couple of episodes of Season 3, is the Club Comic: 'Balacing Act' which features Vector Prime. The first few pages of it make a reference to events that happen at the end of Beast Wars Season 2 and the very start of Season 3 and kind fleshes out a part of that story a bit further making it much more satisfying. For that reason alone, I made the exception of buying a Vector Prime figure when I don't collect from the Cybertron line :)
________
AD ENGINE (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_AD_engine)

[STL]

I did not know that about Balancing Act, Kup. I bought the book last year but had read it and didn't realise there was a BW goodie in there. I'm going to have to go back after I finish season 3.

Those IDW TPBs I'm holding off on are so tempting. Must resist. Must. The art's so purrty.

I don't mind poor animation from fans. While that War Within comic wasn't very good imho, I am all for fan projects like that and the golden disc. I mean, at least those guys can animate and are creative. Me? I'm just a bum on my ass whose devouring all of these. I'm just glad to have them.

[Paulbot]

Resist the IDW comics, they're not very good anyway but that's a separate discussion.

Glad you liked The Agenda. I wasn't sure how much you knew about the connection to G1 going into Beast Wars (like when did you know it was set on Earth? "One moon now?" or earlier?).

Wait a minute... the future has changed, the Autobots lose, evil triumphs, there's no G1 for you to become a fan of... so you never become a Transformer fan, does that mean you no longer exist!?!?!

[STL]

Resist the IDW comics, they're not very good anyway but that's a separate discussion.


So the art's all that's good? That's a darn pity.



Glad you liked The Agenda. I wasn't sure how much you knew about the connection to G1 going into Beast Wars (like when did you know it was set on Earth? "One moon now?" or earlier?).


I think I just assumed it all along. The alt modes seemed to suggest it and then the showing up of the humans just confirmed it. I realised it had to be set in the past to have that direct G1 connection since they're from the future.

I don't think it would've been different if I didn't know about the G1 connection. I still would've assumed prehistoric earth anyway.



Wait a minute... the future has changed, the Autobots lose, evil triumphs, there's no G1 for you to become a fan of... so you never become a Transformer fan, does that mean you no longer exist!?!?!

Now, you're just being mean.

[kup]

So the art's all that's good? That's a darn pity.

I liked the IDW Beast Wars comic (The Gathering, have not read the sequel yet) so it may be a matter of personal preference.

I particularly enjoyed how they expanded more on the Cybetron concepts such as the Tripredacus council and the joint Predacon-Maximal Governing body (Predacons merely have 'token' positions). I also liked how they added more visual decor and references in the background to the Predacons giving them a kind of feel of history. they also tide up a few loose ends that the Beast Wars cartoon did not have the time to cover due to Hasbro's spontaneous decision to can Beast Wars (Hasbro, you don't can shows/toy lines when they are at their height!)
________
CHEVROLET K5 BLAZER SPECIFICATIONS (http://www.chevy-wiki.com/wiki/Chevrolet_K5_Blazer)

[autobreadticon]

your'll luv the robot coolness as the series processes, but also theres a sense of 'time running out' as you near the 3rd season

[Paulbot]

Wait a minute... the future has changed, the Autobots lose, evil triumphs, there's no G1 for you to become a fan of... so you never become a Transformer fan, does that mean you no longer exist!?!?!

Now, you're just being mean.

That's my all-time favourite BW Megatron line :)

[GoktimusPrime]

I've read The Gathering and The Ascending and I like them both! My only gripe is that Furman dropped the ball with its continuity. The series so easily could've been written to fit in with existing continuity from the television series, but the conclusion of The Ascending places it out of continuity - which I was disappointed with because it seemed that on many other levels the series tries to be in canon with the TV series.

It's not like the IDW G1 series which makes no pretense or attempt of being in canon with pre-existing G1... the BW comics on many, many levels really tries to be in-canon, yet on other more subtle levels, just fails. GAH!

[kup]

I've read The Gathering and The Ascending and I like them both! My only gripe is that Furman dropped the ball with its continuity. The series so easily could've been written to fit in with existing continuity from the television series, but the conclusion of The Ascending places it out of continuity - which I was disappointed with because it seemed that on many other levels the series tries to be in canon with the TV series.

It's not like the IDW G1 series which makes no pretense or attempt of being in canon with pre-existing G1... the BW comics on many, many levels really tries to be in-canon, yet on other more subtle levels, just fails. GAH!

you have peaked my interest with this statement. I am yet to read the Ascending (waiting for TPB).

Without spoilers, do you mean that it stuffs the Beast Wars series continuity or the continuation from BW onto Beast Machines?
________
Fetish shemale (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/529/shemale/videos/1)

[GoktimusPrime]

slightly screws around with BW continuity, although I seriously doubt most people would even notice. The canonical stuff that it screws around with all occurs outside the Canadian TV series. Feel free to come over and read my copies if you want, or if I can come to the next Parramatta Fair meet remind me to bring my copies if you wanna read them (or come over after the fair to read them, as it may be less distracting then reading them at a meet in a food court or something - whatever you prefer). I still have to confirm if I'm attending the next meet or not. :p

[kup]

So the comics screws only with the Japanese series such as Beast Wars Second and Neo? Oh okay, I don't mind that too much since the few episodes that I have seen of those series are okay but not very good. They are very kiddy and have very odd cutesy anime humor and stuff such as how Moon always gets his head hammered by Gaia. As long as the Canadian CGI series continuity is not screwed with, I don't mind.

Thanks for the offer on the comics, Kelvin but bringing them to the meet would not really give me the chance to both read it and enjoy them properly while keeping up with conversations and discussions. The TPB for the Ascending is due soon I believe so I will read it then, if not I will take up your offer next time I come over to your place. Thank you.
________
Lesbian Masturbation (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/737/masturbation/videos/1)

[STL]

Just watched Theft of the Golden Disk


I think that its safe to watch the TFCC video but dont expect too much because it is a bit amateurish and hard to follow as there is almost no dialogue.


No kidding. Besides Megatron and Cryotek, the others didn't even talk. The whole silence thing went a bit too far. I do respect the animation work though since it's by fans.

As for the story, who were the eight thiefs? Which one was supposed to be Scorponok b/c he comes up in the credits but I don't recall seeing him anywhere. The plot is pretty hard to follow but I think the basic premise is Megatron doublecrosses the doublecrossing Cryotek. Wish it had been clearer though.

[kup]

Just watched Theft of the Golden Disk



No kidding. Besides Megatron and Cryotek, the others didn't even talk. The whole silence thing went a bit too far. I do respect the animation work though since it's by fans.

As for the story, who were the eight thiefs? Which one was supposed to be Scorponok b/c he comes up in the credits but I don't recall seeing him anywhere. The plot is pretty hard to follow but I think the basic premise is Megatron doublecrosses the doublecrossing Cryotek. Wish it had been clearer though.

Some of the animation models are also a bit hard to see. Its a good fan video but it can be a bit chaotic at times.

Most of the stuff that was unclear in the video is actually addressed in the Botcon 06 comic 'Dawn of Future's Past'. It takes place seconds after Megatron has stolen the disc but the overall plan is still in progress so you see who the team players are and their purpose.
________
Toyota starlet specifications (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Starlet)

[STL]

I got home and figured I'd do some reading or write some fanfic in these late hours but somehow decided instead to watch:

Optimal Situation

Amazing. The opening of this episode makes me want to cry almost. Why? Because it's only 13 episodes long!

The start to Season 3 is nothing short of stupendous. The writers have weaved together a wonderful, action-filled, topsy turvy plot. The G1 elements come to the fore. And that sense of how small the BW Transformers are is overwhelming. G1 Prime is like a legend. The matrix a myth. I could not believe how far they delved into G1. My initial interpretation was just protect Optimus but they take it to the next level. G1 Prime's most famous lines send a gleeful chuckle down one's back here.

Silverbolt's confession of love and all was almost unbearable. Damn, do they get more corny than that? The thing that saved that scene was Rhinox and Rattrap telling him she's only in stasis lock. The look on his face was priceless. :)

I like the fact that Blackarachnia is still refusing to admit she is on the Maximals side. It makes her character stronger and at the same time more real. Women hate admitting the truth.:D

Optimal Optimus' sheer size is amazing. I'm surprised though that after exposure to the Matrix he didn't shrink back down.

Tarantulas, I sense, is up to no good. His little spiders and that one little appearance makes me ask so many questions. He's a coniving little creep. Did his drones deliberately knock Ravage's head into the water? Not that that'll be an issue b/c I expect to see more X-9.

What was good about this episode (and what I'm appreciating more and more) is that neither side really came out on top. Yes, the Maximals achieved what they needed to but the Predacons have now left them stranded w/out a way home.

Only 12 episodes to go and so much to happen in that time... I cannot wait!

[GoktimusPrime]

Women hate admitting the truth
Hasn't your woman told you? Women are plenty good at admitting the truth - it's just that men are always wrong! :p ;) :D


Optimal Optimus' sheer size is amazing. I'm surprised though that after exposure to the Matrix he didn't shrink back down.
He wasn't actually mutated by the Matrix, but by the Spark of Optimus Prime, whose own Spark is very powerful due to its own exposure to the Matrix and the fact that he's freakin' Optimus Prime - as I mentioned before, the BW writers wanted to portray the Autobots as Titan-like gods compared to BW TFs and Optimus Prime and Megatron are like high level gods. :)

But you will notice that when Optimal Optimus is carrying Prime's Spark, that his voice is actually a lot deeper and more digitised (as G1 voices were digitised to make them sound more robotic) and he was going around spouting classic Prime lines - but Optimus Primal's voice reverts to normal after he returns Prime's Spark. :)


Tarantulas, I sense, is up to no good. His little spiders and that one little appearance makes me ask so many questions. He's a coniving little creep.
Hehehe... believe me, you know nothing about the real truth of Tarantulas yet. ;) Watch more!!

Did his drones deliberately knock Ravage's head into the water?
No. That scene was done to show audiences that Ravage definitely did die in that explosion to prevent people from speculate weird survival stories (as some fans have done w/ Brawn :/)

Not that that'll be an issue b/c I expect to see more X-9.
Umm... don't hold your breath.

[STL]

Really? X-9 died? I find that really... wrong. In the past, we've seen Megatron gut Blackarachnia, Waspinator fal to so many bits, Inferno survive massive explosions at point blank range and X-9 doesn't? Boo!

[kup]

Really? X-9 died? I find that really... wrong. In the past, we've seen Megatron gut Blackarachnia, Waspinator fal to so many bits, Inferno survive massive explosions at point blank range and X-9 doesn't? Boo!

Just say that you wont see X-9 in this season again..

---------

Awesome that you saw Optimal Situation. Now you can feel free to read the first few pages of that Vector Prime comic without any spoilers :P You will get a brief but pleaseant surprise that adds more depth to the events of that episode.

There is still more cool stuff to happen in this Season but I am curious to see what you think of TM2 Transformers that will be coming up soon.
________
MAGIC FLIGHT (http://vaporizer.org/reviews/magic-flight-launch-box)

[Paulbot]

At the end of The Agenda all of the Predacons were in pieces except Megatron and Blackarachnia. Look at the damage that was done to Inferno. Rampage has to peel himself off the wall. Quickstrike, Waspinator and Tarantulas have to literally "pull themselves together".

In Beast Wars fiction dead does not equal dead. Ravage will return. Decepticons forever!

[GoktimusPrime]

Uh... in order for me to tell you more about Ravage's fate, I would also have to reveal more about Tarantulas. Hurry up and finish watching Season 3, damnit!!

[STL]

Deep Metal


The introduction of Depthcharge! I really like the character. I have the toy actually; got it almost 4 months ago but have yet to get around to opening it. Having watched these episodes, I think I'm going to have to find time soon now.

As for the episode itself, I loved the waterr feel of the episode. It really made the Transformers Beast War universe seem vast and far spanning. I'm also quite a scenic guy so I loved the refreshing feel of the crystal clear water. Depthcharge's introduction was done quite well. He's a bot with only vengeance on his mind and there's a fear of him being generic. But so far he's interesting in providing a snarky and tough counter to Optimus. Rattrap is witty and frustrating but Depthcharge is outright defiant.

It's interesting how Rampage has embraced his new name despite the fact that it was given to him by Megatron. You'd think he'd resent the name a lot more since it's been given to him by the one who's controlling his every whim.

And poor Waspinator. If there's one constant I've appreciated in the BWs it's that Wazzzpinator always copping a slagging.

Excellent episode.

Changing of the Guard


The level of excellence continues. I like Blackarachnia being involved in the Maximal ranks for the first time and it reminds us that she's also got intelligence; cementing her in my mind as the richest fembot in Transformer lore. Everytime i think of Blackarachnia, it makes me wonder how the writers dropped the ball with Airazor.

Rattrap looks so cute inside the submarine. The music in the background was hilarious. Depthcharge being brought back to the fold was awesome. I liked how he mellowed slowly. It started with the realisation that this was Generation One Earth. Then more and more he starts to realise the gravity of the situation, the need for him to play a role. But in doing so, he's still willing to lip off to Optimus My favourite moment though was when Depthcharge let Optimus berate him. That was a strong moment.

Megatron ultimately won this episode, gaining Sentinel. I like that. I do wonder when he will get his Transmetall II form. There's 10 episodes left and we've still got to see the introduction of Tigerhawk as well as the other bots getting upgrades. A lot to fit in! The upgrade hardest for me to see myself liking is Cheetor. It's just so much more violent and reckless but alas that's later.

This season is beating the snot out of Season 2. And damn, that's just scary. I didn't think the series could get that much better.

[Paulbot]

The upgrade hardest to watch is Cheetor's! I'm not a fan of that story at all.

[kup]

The upgrade hardest to watch is Cheetor's! I'm not a fan of that story at all.

You can blame Aaron Archer! :)

I also hated his TM2 design, it was awful but at least concept wise he was still a robot despite his looks. That of course changed with Beast Machines :(
________
Mazda mx-5 (http://www.ford-wiki.com/wiki/Mazda_MX-5)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, that's a big toy issue thing... but story wise I think it was done reasonably well. :)

Watch more! It gets gooder!!

[STL]

Needed a break from application writing (which seems to be my life these days) and finally got to the next episode:

Feral Scream Part I

I thoroughly enjoyed it. The interactions were great between Depthcharge and all the other characters, Maximal or Predacon. I especially like how the writers tie in Rampage's spark to the new Dinobot which brings Depthcharge into the fold. There's no doubt who is in the shadows, it's a bit obvious. (and i'm not saying that from the pov of a person who already owns a TM2 Cheetor!)

I felt sorry for widdle Waspinator. He flies into the battlescene only to get toasted by Megatron. Black Arachnia grabbing the drive adds that little bit of intrigue to the story imo. And since she has a TM2 form, I suspect it's only a matter of time before we see it.

One of my principal problems was the typical new character = all powerful syndrome. It's always been a feature of many cartoons before the characters start drifting back to more realistic levels. The crazed cheetor here is able to take out a horde of Maximals. There are some hardened nuts in that crew and it's jarring that dark Cheetor can subdue them - enhanced or not.

Now one of the things I've noticed, quite annoyingly, is that Rhinox is taking more and more of a back seat as a secondary character. He hasn't had the same love as Rattrap, Cheetor and co. (I guess that's why they tried to make it up by giving him a Hard Hero Statue ;) ) I'm all for the new characters getting spotlight but it's a pity they forgot about the older ones. Rhinox's character hasn't really gone anywhere or been tested. Likewise with Rattrap. They've more fitted into their roles and been rather static despite the change in the war. I guess though you see that as the strength of their character.

[GoktimusPrime]

One of my principal problems was the typical new character = all powerful syndrome. It's always been a feature of many cartoons before the characters start drifting back to more realistic levels. The crazed cheetor here is able to take out a horde of Maximals. There are some hardened nuts in that crew and it's jarring that dark Cheetor can subdue them - enhanced or not.
RE: You want to buy this toy. :p Remember that at the end of the day, this show exists as a marketing tool to sell toys which means that Hasbro, who are the ones who decide which toys have to appear (and disappear) in which episode would want to see the new toy portrayed in an appealing perspective, which typically means that they have to be "cool" in order to elicit kids to want to buy the toy. And with TM2 Cheetor that's pretty important considering that it's the crappiest of the Cheetor toys in BW. :p


Now one of the things I've noticed, quite annoyingly, is that Rhinox is taking more and more of a back seat as a secondary character. He hasn't had the same love as Rattrap, Cheetor and co.
He would've if he'd become a Transmetal! Again, as an "old" toy Hasbro isn't demanding as much attention onto that character. So during moments where the story is focusing on introducing a new toy, older toys can sometimes take a backseat. Even Waspinator's moments are brief - but fortunately for him, also very memorable! Rhinox will have his moments again, don't worry. :)


They've more fitted into their roles and been rather static despite the change in the war. I guess though you see that as the strength of their character.
Rhinox undergoes some really, really massive change a lot later...

Rattrap has undergone change. In the beginning of the series he started off as being very reluctant and uncomfortable as a combatant. Even though he's maintained his pessissimistic demeanour, he has become a capable warrior and even proven to be a competent leader. Busting up Ravage's ship and retrieving Sentinel were things that he never would've thought of doing in the beginning of Season 1.

"YEE-HAR!" - Rattrap riding bareback on a Decepticon missile
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/d/d3/Rattrap-slimpickins5.jpg/180px-Rattrap-slimpickins5.jpg

Talk about being out of your comfort zone...
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/2/2c/Rattrap-subaquatic2.jpg/250px-Rattrap-subaquatic2.jpg

[iceburn]

STL, remember to bring Paul's Season 1 and 2 when you're down city or when we meet up next time. Thanks

[kup]

Rhinox undergoes some really, really massive change a lot later...

If you are refering to Beast Machines, that is not really a proper development of the character as its 'artificially' forced in without any propper logic nor development. It just spontaneously happened.

[GoktimusPrime]

It's not particularly good development, but it's still development - and it's officially canon. :p

[Bartrim]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents.

I've just finished watching rise of the fuzors and I am enjoying Beast Wars (Okay I was wrong!) I am surprised to say that my favourite character is... Dinobot. I really didn't like this guy in the begining but he has really grown on me. Love some of his one liners. (I can't recall the name but the episode where they lose their sight has some good comic relief from Dinobot in it). Still like Cheetor. Can't stand Rattrap (keep hoping Dinobot steps on him). Don't mind Silverbolt (although that regal music that plays after he says a line is a bit annoying) The rest of the characters are so so in my opinion. Naturally I still get creeped out by Tarantulas.

Plot wise I like how the story is developing in season 2 and I like how everything came to loggerheads at the end of season1. It cgot me that wrapped up in it that I watched the last 3 episodes in one sitting (something I hadn't done prior). My only criticism is they didn't make that big a deal out of Scorponok and Terrasaur's deaths. I nearly missed it as I was scooping up the last of my rice I was eating.

Anyway I wanted to say that even though I'll probably never collect the toys I do like the show. Is it my favourite? Only time will tell.

[kup]

Just wanted to add my 2 cents.


Anyway I wanted to say that even though I'll probably never collect the toys I do like the show. Is it my favourite? Only time will tell.

Time will tell when you get to the end of Season 2 :)

[GoktimusPrime]

My only criticism is they didn't make that big a deal out of Scorponok and Terrasaur's deaths.
You can kinda blame Hasbro for that. ;)

btw STL, during Depth Charge's debut, remember how Rampage spoke of "Starbase Rugby"? That's a reference to an old online fan-run TF toy store called Rugby's Starbase. :) I love how this show is just choc-full of fandom references like that! :D

[STL]

It's not particularly good development, but it's still development - and it's officially canon. :p

At least it won't ever be part of my canon. ;)


Just wanted to add my 2 cents.


2 cents? Cheapass!



I've just finished watching rise of the fuzors and I am enjoying Beast Wars (Okay I was wrong!) I am surprised to say that my favourite character is... Dinobot. I really didn't like this guy in the begining but he has really grown on me. Love some of his one liners. (I can't recall the name but the episode where they lose their sight has some good comic relief from Dinobot in it). Still like Cheetor. Can't stand Rattrap (keep hoping Dinobot steps on him). Don't mind Silverbolt (although that regal music that plays after he says a line is a bit annoying) The rest of the characters are so so in my opinion. Naturally I still get creeped out by Tarantulas.

Plot wise I like how the story is developing in season 2 and I like how everything came to loggerheads at the end of season1. It cgot me that wrapped up in it that I watched the last 3 episodes in one sitting (something I hadn't done prior). My only criticism is they didn't make that big a deal out of Scorponok and Terrasaur's deaths. I nearly missed it as I was scooping up the last of my rice I was eating.

Anyway I wanted to say that even though I'll probably never collect the toys I do like the show. Is it my favourite? Only time will tell.

The one where they were blind in was Call of the Wild, I think. Personally i hated that episode. It felt like a drain. I'd say you like the end of Season 1 much more than I did. I couldn't really feel it. I also agree w/ the death of Scorponok and Terrosaur. I actually missed it too on the first round. I'm glad you enjoying it too and it looks like you might finish before me even though I started before you. :o Like you, I'm still not sure what my verdict is on the entirety of the 3 seasons but I guess we'll find out soon enough.

Oooh if you were in Melbourne I'd show you some of the toys! I think they're much better personally than you really expect. Not all of them but Optimus Primal, Megatron and a few of the others are really great toys. Next Sydneyside meet, get some of those Sydney metro boys to bring some figures. Like yourself, I was proven wrong on all counts. I still fondly recall Borgeman and myself agreeing we'd never buy these stupid shellforming sorry excuses for Transformers. Borgeman's stuck to that. Me? Since six months ago, they're a large part of my collection. :eek:

[roller]

scorponok and Terrorsaur aint deaded

They will return

[Bartrim]

2 cents? Cheapass!


The one where they were blind in was Call of the Wild, I think. Personally i hated that episode. It felt like a drain. I'd say you like the end of Season 1 much more than I did. I couldn't really feel it. I also agree w/ the death of Scorponok and Terrosaur. I actually missed it too on the first round. I'm glad you enjoying it too and it looks like you might finish before me even though I started before you. :o Like you, I'm still not sure what my verdict is on the entirety of the 3 seasons but I guess we'll find out soon enough.
:

Yes I'm cheap:p

I wasn't that thrilled about call of the wild I just enjoyed Dinobots comic relief. Like when Rhinox announces they are at the waterfall and over the sound of the tumbling water Dinobots yells "What a brilliant deduction You've made there".

Yeah I'm trying to make it through season 2 as quick as I can although my wife keeps stopping me because she wants to watch Heroes (we just got season 1 on dvd refer non tf accquisitions)

[i_amtrunks]

If there is one figure that should get you wanting to collect the figures it will be someone who debuts late in Season 3.

I'd also suggest not looking at some of the Japanese only Beast Wars figures, figures like Longrack, Stampy and Lio Convoy are quite damn good.

[kup]

Needed a break from application writing (which seems to be my life these days) and finally got to the next episode:

Feral Scream Part I

I thoroughly enjoyed it. The interactions were great between Depthcharge and all the other characters, Maximal or Predacon. I especially like how the writers tie in Rampage's spark to the new Dinobot which brings Depthcharge into the fold. There's no doubt who is in the shadows, it's a bit obvious. (and i'm not saying that from the pov of a person who already owns a TM2 Cheetor!)

I felt sorry for widdle Waspinator. He flies into the battlescene only to get toasted by Megatron. Black Arachnia grabbing the drive adds that little bit of intrigue to the story imo. And since she has a TM2 form, I suspect it's only a matter of time before we see it.

One of my principal problems was the typical new character = all powerful syndrome. It's always been a feature of many cartoons before the characters start drifting back to more realistic levels. The crazed cheetor here is able to take out a horde of Maximals. There are some hardened nuts in that crew and it's jarring that dark Cheetor can subdue them - enhanced or not.

Now one of the things I've noticed, quite annoyingly, is that Rhinox is taking more and more of a back seat as a secondary character. He hasn't had the same love as Rattrap, Cheetor and co. (I guess that's why they tried to make it up by giving him a Hard Hero Statue ;) ) I'm all for the new characters getting spotlight but it's a pity they forgot about the older ones. Rhinox's character hasn't really gone anywhere or been tested. Likewise with Rattrap. They've more fitted into their roles and been rather static despite the change in the war. I guess though you see that as the strength of their character.

Hey! I have just realized that you missed an episode: 'Cutting Edge' its the last episode of Season 3 Disc 1 of the Madman release, just before Feral Scream Part 1!

It's just an 'ok' episode but it is a bit of a prelude to Feral Scream.

[STL]

Hey! I have just realized that you missed an episode: 'Cutting Edge' its the last episode of Season 3 Disc 1 of the Madman release, just before Feral Scream Part 1!

It's just an 'ok' episode but it is a bit of a prelude to Feral Scream.

Oh crud! You're absolutely right! Gah! Knew it was a long time episodes! :mad:

I did get to Feral Scream part 2 though.

I didn't mind it. Now one of the other things that's irking me is Cheetor's crush on Black Arachnia. Is it me or does the pussy cat need a whacking? When did he start falling for her? Why would he? Just b/c she's a fembot? Kind of happens out of nowhere.

I loved Optimal's line with Cheetor. "I know what's going on. I just wanted you to trust me enough to tell me yourself." Great line that reflects the leader that BW Optimus is.

The episode in its entirelty was mediocre at best in my opinion. I knew where it was going and the great parts were cameos by ohers like Rattrap, Megatron and Waspinator. Cheetor's problems were pretty secondary and it's irksome that after this "I am toughness" fiasco he reverts to being an insecure little pussy.

And I did think it was going a bit too far to have TM2 Dinobot slice Waspinator into think pieces. Just too far imo. They're team mates after all on a mission.

Off to rectify my mistake now....

[kup]

yeah, personally I am not a big fan of most of Season 3, Beast Wars reached its peak in Season 2 in my opinion. However Season 3 does have a lot of good stuff even if it was very much rushed due to Hasbro deciding to can the series for Beast Machines with hardly any notice at all.

Don't worry about the Cheetor and Blackarachnia thing, it will not last more than the next episode.

Once you finish the Season, I will send you a comic that makes up a bit for some of the rushed aspects of Season 3 and the Prequel comic.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, the Cheetor-Blackarachnia thing finishes off pret-ty interestingly IMO. ;)

As for the whole current situation with Transmetal 2 Cheetor - Rattrap put it really well, "Oh joy... cyber-puberty." ;) As 'annoying' as it may seem, this is part of Cheetor's coming of age. He's now progressed from 'child' to 'teen.' In Beast Machines he progresses to 'adult' - and IMO Cheetor was the best developed character in Beast Machines.

[kup]

In Beast Machines he progresses to 'adult' - and IMO Cheetor was the best developed character in Beast Machines.

I totally agree. Cheetor was the only character who had a logical character development from Beast Wars to the end of Beast Machines and as a result, he is my favorite character in that series.

[GoktimusPrime]

I thought Blackarachnia's progression was logical too and done pretty well - she comes full circle in BM. Silverbolt's character development was progressively logical... just not very well done because of the whole "emo" thing. In Beast Wars we do see that Silverbolt has a bit of a dark side with the capacity for revenge - as seen when he hunted Tarantulas and impaled him when he thought that his Predacon shell program had caused Blackarachnia's death. Silverbolt going through that dark depressive phase was quite understandable - he had been through massive trauma as a Vehicon general... but the problem with that character was, as Scott McNeill put it, it just took him far too long to get over it. Silverbolt turned out pretty nicely in the final eps of Season 2, had that been done a lot sooner then Silverbolt would've been a pretty decent character in that show. So the problem with BM Silverbolt isn't so much that he was illogically developed, but because he spent too long brooding and should've just gotten over his freakin' issues and moved on!

[Bartrim]

Okay I've finished season 2 and watch episode1 of season 3 on TF:TM special edition.

I enjoyed the end of season 2 but it didn't impress me like the end of season1. Although I actually got quite a laugh out of it hwy was Cheetor used for comic relief when they jumped out of Ravage's ship? Totally out of character IMO

I liked Rattrap's line about how often Optimus switches bodies:)

Just waiting on season 3 to continue my journey

[STL]

Cutting Edge

I missed this ep the first time around. Thanks to Kup for noticing. It really irked me but at least it explained (... kind of...) why Cheetor has a crush on Blackarachnia. Nevertheless it doesn't change the sheer stupidity of the plot. Silverbolt getting angry is a nice new angle. Not such a perfect white knight, after all. I loved seeing Tarantulas. He's seen so infrequently at times. Best part of the episode though was Blackarachnia's snappy remarks and, dare I say it, heroism.

Though I must guilitly admit, I wouldn't have minded if something splatted those annoying primitive children.

Proving Grounds

Very basic premise. The ending is spelled out before you even get there and I'm inclined to really hate this episode but I couldn't. There was the long, drawn out fight with Dinobot but then we had the great banter between Rattrap and Silverbolt, Silverbolt/Dinobot/Blackarachnia. Oh, and Rattrap and his street fighting games quite funny. He's really adorable. So those things saved it but really it wasn't strong an episode and I feel as if the series is meandering away after a strong start. The last 4 episodes have been weak and I hope there's a good turn around the corner.

[Paulbot]

You've still got "Go With The Flow" to get past (well you might like depending on how much you like Una Witwicky.... it's a bit of a devisive episode), and then it's pretty much full speed ahead to the conclusion.

[roller]

no he's lying!!! It all down hill from here!!! ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!

[jumps out window]


Your journey is taking forever STL

[STL]

Rodimus had like forever to get used to have the Matrix, and look where he got... oh wait, bad example. :p

[kup]

Personally, Although I like Season 3, Season 2 was when Beast Wars reached its peak for me. Season 3 is good generally but sadly it is noticeable that the writers were fighting Hasbro's calls for extreme change like TM2s, overly kiddie plot elements (why do executives think that kids can only relate to kid characters???), etc. From now on you will notice some decent episodes but the overall plot will seem very rushed as Hasbro struck with the 'we know better than you' hammer and wanted to move everything quickly onto Beast Machines with new writers.

The Beast Wars writers got a last minute notice of the series end when much of the third season was already under production and were forced to quickly conclude any unresolved plot elements and force a series finale when it was supposed to continue onto a 4th Season.

The above is one of the reasons of why I deeply hate Aaron Archer as there was no freaking reason to push for change, the series was a complete smash hit, only second to G1 (even by today's standards). Why oh why did they push for the technorganic nonsense and an strict attempt at reinventing the franchise is a mystery to me, you only do that as a last resort when the line is in trouble. At the end their push for extreme change caused the Transformers line to go from great success to an absolute flop with Beast Machines toys (Archer's babies) which sucked.

[Bartrim]

Having finished season 3 a few days ago I complete understand where you are coming from Kup. I couldn't believe how quickly they wrapped everything up. Kinda dissapointing. If Hasbro would of let it drag out a little bit longer it would of been alot better I feel.

[dirge]

Metals struggled in Japan, but Takara just went their own way with Neo & Second, so I doubt Hasbro changed direction due to any pressure from Takara.

Transmetal IIs probably would have killed Beast Wars had it gone on that much longer - they didn't sell anywhere near as well the earlier BW toys. Even then, that was because of Archer's McFarlane-esque obsession with detail over recognisable modes (he still doesn't get why well defined alt modes are so important).

But there was still potential in the toyline had they shifted it away from TMIIs. Mind you, BM took the line even further down that McFarlane-esque cul-de-sac, at least with the Maximals.

[kup]

There is one big loose element which was not explained. This was addressed in the IDW Beast Wars 'The Gathering' comic.

[roller]

Kup what are you refering to? pm me

I can sort of understand Hasbro calling it quits. This is from my point of view, as someone who was a kiddy at the time of beastwarsuzzles

I was in yr 3 when it arrived in Sydney, and by the time Season 3 played here i was in yr 7, 100% of the kids who had bought the toys when it started and mid way through were going through the pube yers and didnt want toys, and the cartoon wasnt exactly something you could just jump in on anywhere.

Plus the younger generation are too hyper to enjoy action figures

Transmetals 2 rock

BeastMachines rocketh

[kup]

A lot of people for some reason confuse Optimal Optimus and Depth Charge as TM2s, design wise they are actually TM1s.

the really organic figures like Cheetor, Blackarachnia II and Dinobot II are TM2s.

TM2s did have a couple of good figures though, like Tigerhawk and Megatron Dragon (although the robot mode wasn't all that good). Unfortunately TM2s were mostly crap.

[dirge]

OpOp is technically a Transmetal II, but the design is closer to a Transmetal in most ways.

[dirge]

Guh. Stupid Canadian packaging. Okay, OpOp wasn't sold as a Transmetal II in most markets :p

[Verno]

Plus he, nor Depth Charge, had any contact with the Transmetal driver in the show.

[roller]

Opop is a transmetal 1 just wit an extra mode

was there some packagin that said otherwoise?

[autobreadticon]

you will really enjoy beast wars 2 (Neo) but there isnt alot of episodes on youtube so u may have 2 get it cheap at JB :)

Beast Machines failed cause of the character designs and overall animation, the story isnt so bad.

[i_amtrunks]

you will really enjoy beast wars 2 (Neo) but there isnt alot of episodes on youtube so u may have 2 get it cheap at JB.

If and when Madman is able to get the rights to the Japanese BW series.

[kup]

If and when Madman is able to get the rights to the Japanese BW series.

I really hope they do!

I have been watching the fan dubs and recently the Animated Movie. Its very kiddy and not as good as the Canadian series but its not bad and I have enjoyed what I have seen but not expecting anything Epic like the North American series.

[Kyle]

I hope so too. Any idea if Metrodome will release these first? Or they were only releasing G1?

[i_amtrunks]

Does Metrodome still exist as a company anymore?

[Kyle]

Does Metrodome still exist as a company anymore?

I think so. Just found their site and they seem to do non-Transformers DVDs as well:

http://www.metrodomegroup.com/

Their TF site though (http://www.transformersdvd.com/) hasn't been updated for a while, possibly due to no new product on their schedule. :/

[kup]

Plus he, nor Depth Charge, had any contact with the Transmetal driver in the show.

Yeah within the story canon, neither was exposed to the Vok transmetal driver so it makes sense for them to not be TM2s. It seems that the writers were also paying attention to the toy design styles while writing the scripts.

[STL]

The journey continues... :)

Go w/ the Flow

We're back on track. I loved this episode. The comic elements worked really well and i have to say that the Depthcharge/Rattrap combo was great. The little kids weren't annoying either. In fact, I thought they were gerat as sub characters and even though it was evident that she'd dupe the Predacons, the best part was why she duped them. Not because she needed to save the Maximals. Not because she needed to save the planet. But b/c she wanted a hair clip! :D Loved the slip, sliding down the river too.

Crossing the Rubicon
I have to say that to this point there have been good, mediocre and bad episodes. But this was the 1st episode where I felt bitterly disappointed. Certain episodes radiate a meh quality from the outset but what particular frustrated me about this episode in a manner akin to Animated episodes was how wonderful it started out and then so quickly nosedived. I'd been waiting and waiting for when Blackarachnia would assume her new TM form. And I knew this episode from the start would feature that.

Nothing wrong with that. What was so mindboggling was the way the whole plot so quickly deteriorated. We have an intense desperate struggle to save her, the failure, the attempt at revenge - that's all good - but then all of a sudden that odd ball decides to save her from out of nowhere - and then we have to reconcile how the heck she gets there to save Silverbolt so quickly. It was such a jarring leap in logic that I felt so upset.

May be my disappointment is a reflection of the high standard I hold to BWs and the fact that others like Kup hold the series in such high esteem but I've got to say that's one of the fastest nosedives for a BWs episodes I watched. There was a lot to like about it, mind you, it was just that last 5th that really had me wondering if George Lucas had taken over writing duties.


And last I'd like to mention how much i like Scott McNeil. I can't believe he's the voice actor for all those characters including Silverbot. It's on that intro at the start of the disc and I'd always overlooked/not paid attention to it. But its great how he can so wonderfully mod his voice.

[Gutsman Heavy]

plus he's an aussie, extra points for that :)

[roller]

well he was born here or somethin

if he is ever in Australia surely he'd like to make an appearance with his fellow countrymens fans of partly his work ?

[kup]

The journey continues... :)

Go w/ the Flow

We're back on track. I loved this episode. The comic elements worked really well and i have to say that the Depthcharge/Rattrap combo was great. The little kids weren't annoying either. In fact, I thought they were gerat as sub characters and even though it was evident that she'd dupe the Predacons, the best part was why she duped them. Not because she needed to save the Maximals. Not because she needed to save the planet. But b/c she wanted a hair clip! :D Loved the slip, sliding down the river too.

Crossing the Rubicon
I have to say that to this point there have been good, mediocre and bad episodes. But this was the 1st episode where I felt bitterly disappointed. Certain episodes radiate a meh quality from the outset but what particular frustrated me about this episode in a manner akin to Animated episodes was how wonderful it started out and then so quickly nosedived. I'd been waiting and waiting for when Blackarachnia would assume her new TM form. And I knew this episode from the start would feature that.

Nothing wrong with that. What was so mindboggling was the way the whole plot so quickly deteriorated. We have an intense desperate struggle to save her, the failure, the attempt at revenge - that's all good - but then all of a sudden that odd ball decides to save her from out of nowhere - and then we have to reconcile how the heck she gets there to save Silverbolt so quickly. It was such a jarring leap in logic that I felt so upset.

May be my disappointment is a reflection of the high standard I hold to BWs and the fact that others like Kup hold the series in such high esteem but I've got to say that's one of the fastest nosedives for a BWs episodes I watched. There was a lot to like about it, mind you, it was just that last 5th that really had me wondering if George Lucas had taken over writing duties.


And last I'd like to mention how much i like Scott McNeil. I can't believe he's the voice actor for all those characters including Silverbot. It's on that intro at the start of the disc and I'd always overlooked/not paid attention to it. But its great how he can so wonderfully mod his voice.

I think the Blackarachnia episode suffered from the last minute Season 3 rush job that the writers were suddenly faced with.

I have said this before, Season 3 is my least favorite BW Season for the reason above, My Beast Wars fandom peaked at Season 2. Even if there wasn't a Season 3, I would still hold Beast Wars with such high steem as Season 1 & 2 made it for me.

Season 3 is still good (particularly the first few episodes) but it deteriorates into a rush job to conclude the story before the end of the short season thanks to Archer/Hasbro and their failure to understand the concepts that attract people (Beast Machines).

Goktimus considers Season 3 with high steem but I don't, its better than most (if not all) of the stuff we have gotten in the past decade but pales in comparison with Season 1 & 2. Beast Was produced its best in Season 2 in my opinion.

[STL]

I think the Blackarachnia episode suffered from the last minute Season 3 rush job that the writers were suddenly faced with.

I have said this before, Season 3 is my least favorite BW Season for the reason above, My Beast Wars fandom peaked at Season 2. Even if there wasn't a Season 3, I would still hold Beast Wars with such high steem as Season 1 & 2 made it for me.

Season 3 is still good (particularly the first few episodes) but it deteriorates into a rush job to conclude the story before the end of the short season thanks to Archer/Hasbro and their failure to understand the concepts that attract people (Beast Machines).

Goktimus considers Season 3 with high steem but I don't, its better than most (if not all) of the stuff we have gotten in the past decade but pales in comparison with Season 1 & 2. Beast Was produced its best in Season 2 in my opinion.
Hey guys, just thinking was TM2 Blackarachnia the precursor to Archer's Beast Machines idea? She does sorta have a strange colour scheme.

[roller]

No the precursor was the drugs :)


but yes, what possessed Archer to have such weird, in terms of traditional tf ,designs?

I mean, you could still have all the big semi-religious plot without such strange bodies surely

[Paulbot]

Blackarachnia is not much different from most Transmetal 2 toys for having a mix of bright and dark colours and bizarre looking beast modes and robot modes. It's not hard to draw a line between Transmetal 2s and Beast Machines Maximals.

[kup]

According to Archer TM2s are indeed his designs and Beast Machines continues their theme in an even more extremem manner as by that time Archer had been given authority over the franchise.

You can tell by the TM2 designs that they were preparing their agenda to abandon the whole robot concept and move into Technorganics which they sadly did in BM with abismal results. The franchise was in serious danger after that as it totally annihalated the G1 continuity and alienated many fans as Transformers were no longer robots of any kind. The franchise had not been in such a bad state since the end of G1 until the Japanese rescued it with RID.

I am still surprized that Archer wasn't fired on the spot after such a failure in his first term in office.

[GoktimusPrime]

Despite the decline in popularity, Beast Machines wasn't a financial flop for Hasbro - it actually did enjoy reasonable popularity (most likely enough to turn a profit) -- but as one prominent Transfan told me, Beast Machines was riding on the coat tails of the success of Beast Wars... that managed to keep it afloat. And of course, RiD came in just in time (if I haven't already told you the full story about this, feel free to ask me next time we meet :)) to pump a new resurgence into the franchise. So the franchise never went into decline so badly that Hasbro would've taken enough notice to want to take action against Archer.

...I wonder whose idea it was to make Transformers Animorphs though. Those things peg-warmed something chronic.

[kup]

Hi Gok,

Welcome back!

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah thanks... still not sure if I really want to come back though (the issue that I thought might've been resolved appears that it may not have been)... (-_-)

[Borgeman]

Yeah thanks... still not sure if I really want to come back though (the issue that I thought might've been resolved appears that it may not have been)... (-_-)

what issue gok? aside from the problems the server has been giving griffin et al, things have never been smoother since ive been here :)

you need some help on a beating?


George

[GoktimusPrime]

It's nothing I'm going to discuss publicly, sorry Borgie. It's got nothing to do with the current board technical difficulties though.

[roller]

It's nothing I'm going to discuss publicly, sorry Borgie. It's got nothing to do with the current board technical difficulties though.

you can't leave a juicy tempting story like that on a cliffhanger, you must continue

[GoktimusPrime]

cos Stone Cold said so.

[roller]

A few times ive been around that track and its just not gonna have been like that cos i aint no hollaback girl, i aint no hollaback girl!!!


dooo dooo do do


This is not time for sweaters we need ties now!!!!

[dirge]

Guys, please leave Gok's reason alone, and not hijack STL's thread.

[roller]

Yeah! You've been warned ya highjackin terrorist ###**

[Borgeman]

Guys, please leave Gok's reason alone, and not hijack STL's thread.

no worries, but im still available if a beating is needed :D

George

[STL]

Digging this thread up cos I finally got around to properly watching some more episodes (not to mention I was embarrassed to be reminded by Soundwarp how slow I've taken! :o):

Master Blaster

Unbelievably good episode. Quick change of pace from the horror of the Rubicon. Some of my favourite one liners in here. Waspinator's role as sub commander was shortlived with hilarity and I honestly just could not stop laughing at the poor fellow. What ensued though was the treachery in this episode. The manifestation of Tarantulas' intentions combined with BW Megatron and G1 Megatron's fusion followed by the new form was great theatre.

I particularly enjoyed seeing Blackarachnia work her way through the Predacon minefield. I have an immense fascination with this character. I wouldn't classify her as a favourite of mine but she strikes me as being so unique. There are layers on layers to her character and that's not something that I can say about many TFs. My favourite characters are all G1 and none lack the sensibility and nuance that her character carries.

My favourite one liner was this though:

Megatron: "I can suffer your treachery, lieutenant, but not your incompetence!" (hurls Tarantulas over the edge) "Treachery requires no mistakes."

The frustration though I can already see is how short this season is going to be. Three episodes left, one for Tigerhawk and then two for the finale. We hardly even get to see Megatron's new form which I find to be completely awesome. I had the toy for a long time before I even watched this episode and I have to say I am in love with the mold now. It's just so evil compared to that RiD mold.

[Paulbot]

But the RID toy turns into two dragons, and an evil elephant, an the evil hand of doom! So evil he can transform just to give you the finger. :D

[SilverDragon]

According to Archer TM2s are indeed his designs and Beast Machines continues their theme in an even more extremem manner as by that time Archer had been given authority over the franchise.

You can tell by the TM2 designs that they were preparing their agenda to abandon the whole robot concept and move into Technorganics which they sadly did in BM with abismal results. The franchise was in serious danger after that as it totally annihalated the G1 continuity and alienated many fans as Transformers were no longer robots of any kind. The franchise had not been in such a bad state since the end of G1 until the Japanese rescued it with RID.

I am still surprized that Archer wasn't fired on the spot after such a failure in his first term in office.

In my opinion, the Beast Machines aesthetic was just really weird. The Transmetals worked really well in my opinion, since they were generally robot animals with some organic bits to remind you of their previous forms. Transmetal 2s, while I dislike the random machine/organic mashup, were alright (dragon Megatron for the win). Beast Machines were just weird. I don't think they really appealed to their market, what with the freakish mashup going on. The appeal of TMs was that they were animals which has vehicle modes. TM2s were an attempt to continue the first 'organic' designs with elements of TMs. Beast Machine's appeal? HAI GUYZ LOOK CYBER MUNKEYS

[GoktimusPrime]

The main problem with Beast Machines was that the Maximals' beast modes were at times just too ambiguous. With Beast Wars, even Transmetals and Transmetal 2s, you can still look at their beast modes and know what they're meant to be. The BM Maximals' beast modes were so abstract that Hasbro felt compelled to label them on their packaging!

http://www.itaggit.com/Thumbnails/352/Images/73422_large.jpg
^it's a bit hard to read here but right underneath "Optimus Primal" is the word "Gorilla." When you need to tell people what the hell the alt mode's meant to be, then you know it's not a good looking mode!

[SilverDragon]

The main problem with Beast Machines was that the Maximals' beast modes were at times just too ambiguous. With Beast Wars, even Transmetals and Transmetal 2s, you can still look at their beast modes and know what they're meant to be. The BM Maximals' beast modes were so abstract that Hasbro felt compelled to label them on their packaging!

http://www.itaggit.com/Thumbnails/352/Images/73422_large.jpg
^it's a bit hard to read here but right underneath "Optimus Primal" is the word "Gorilla." When you need to tell people what the hell the alt mode's meant to be, then you know it's not a good looking mode!

They did that with the original BW toys too.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/Dinoman42/razorbeastcard.jpg

Although I agree on the beast modes looking like crap. Cheetor comes to mind-what kind of cheetah looks like that?

[kup]

They did that with the original BW toys too.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/Dinoman42/razorbeastcard.jpg

Although I agree on the beast modes looking like crap. Cheetor comes to mind-what kind of cheetah looks like that?

Hakuna Matata? :D

[GoktimusPrime]

That's a bit different. That's like "transforms from robot to truck and back" that we had in G1.

Although Razorbeast and Cheetor aren't perfect replicas of their beast forms, if you look at Razorbeast you know that it's meant to be a boar. If you look at Cheetor it's very obvious that it's meant to be a cheetah.

Look at Beast Machines Skydive... its form is so obscure looking that even Hasbro themselves were confused and erroneously mislabelled its beast form on its card!

Let's play "guess the beast mode" with BM Skydive!

http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/e4/93/11c4_2.JPG
Is it supposed to be a:
a/ Pterodactyl
b/ Pteranodon
c/ Eagle
d/ Quetzalcoatlus
e/ Pelican

[Gutsman Heavy]

I vote for Quetzacoatl

[GoktimusPrime]

Oops, that should read "Quetzalcoatlus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatlus) - which is a species of pterosaur. Quetzalcoatl is a God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl). :) My bad. :p

[Tommy K]

They did that with the original BW toys too.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y57/Dinoman42/razorbeastcard.jpg



gosh do i miss that packaging, it reminds me back in the day where you could go and buy them at the stores lol



http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/e4/93/11c4_2.JPG
Is it supposed to be a:
a/ Pterodactyl
b/ Pteranodon
c/ Eagle
d/ Quetzalcoatlus
e/ Pelican
PELICAN pelicanpelicanpelican. i enjoyed that figure for the 3 hours i had him for, but i enjoyed rhinox more, thanx guys

[Pulse]

gosh do i miss that packaging, it reminds me back in the day where you could go and buy them at the stores lol


That artwork/packaging is ssssso purty! :D (it's a shame that you can't open it without ruining the artwork... :()

[GoktimusPrime]

Wanna bet?

http://images.orgill.com/200x200/6794051.jpg

[STL]

Other Victories

Very bad episode. I've watched this twice now and other than a toy selling exercise, this episode is among the worst in BWs. Can someone please explain to me the gimmick plot device about the Vok? It takes itself way too seriously for what is a contrived plot mechanism. Bad comedy.

[Paulbot]

"At least this time Waspinator has company" :D

I didn't like what they did to Airazor and Tigatron, and judging by the follow up fiction undoing it, others didn't either. The Vok are just not developed enough, and although there's explanations out there that the Vok are the Swarm from G2 comics or the future of humanity, or both, I just don't like them much at all. They were much more interesting when they were an unexplained mystery.

[GoktimusPrime]

What? You mean you still haven't finished watching Beast Wars yet?!

Again, remember that they were taking a story that was intended to span for another series (season four) and compressed it into the final episodes because they'd already written and planned most of season three by time Hasbro told Mainframe to wrap things up by the end of Season Three and finish the series.

Given those less-than-ideal conditions you can understand why the story inevitably suffered as a result. The same thing happened at the end of the US G1 cartoon - "The Rebirth" was originally written to be a five-parter but well after Dave Wise had written the original treatment, Hasbro told Sunbow to change it to a three-parter and demanded that they showcase a whole bunch of toys within the first episode (hence why you have so many "hi then bye" appearances, e.g.: Punch/Counterpunch, Clones, Sixshot etc).

Hasbro dictated which episode a Transformer would appear or disappear and they would approve the character cast for each ep. So it would've been Hasbro that insisted on Tigerhawk appearing at the end - and of course, Tigatron and Airazor had been tied to the Vok since Season 2, so introducing Tigerhawk meant that they had to rapidly accelerate the Vok arc.

Yes, the latter half of Season 3 is very much a rush job - but it was due to reasons beyond Mainframe's control and they were desperately trying to tie up loose ends as ordered by Hasbro.

[STL]

"At least this time Waspinator has company" :D

I didn't like what they did to Airazor and Tigatron, and judging by the follow up fiction undoing it, others didn't either. The Vok are just not developed enough, and although there's explanations out there that the Vok are the Swarm from G2 comics or the future of humanity, or both, I just don't like them much at all. They were much more interesting when they were an unexplained mystery.

The Vok as descendants of the Swarm? That's a long bow... and you've got to be trying really hard there to even draw a link. I just can't even get over why in Season 1 they seem preoccupied with preserving the environment and blah and then now progress to being the gate keepers of all time and space? :confused:

And it might have been a rush job but that single episode is below the crappiness of some of the 1st season's worst which I did not think could be replicated. Hell, I just could not believe how two year old the whole plot device was. It took very little imagination and the whole episode then brings in the whole convenant, mystical angle that I honestly for the life of me could not even accept if it wasn't rushed. It's just a WTH and there are a hundred better ways they could have introduced the character of Tigerhawk.

I keep hearing the "you've got to understand" line when it comes to the end of Season 3 but no excuse could be made for such lame writing.

[Paulbot]

The Vok as descendants of the Swarm? That's a long bow... and you've got to be trying really hard there to even draw a link.

See here for some details on the Vok/Swarm connection (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Vok)

I think it's fair to take some of these "writers intentions" with as much validity as fanfic retcons. Stuff that's added later to a series can be good and bad. The actual series doesn't not explain who the Vok are.

[GoktimusPrime]

The Vok as descendants of the Swarm? That's a long bow... and you've got to be trying really hard there to even draw a link.
Why?

At the end of G2 we saw the Swarm "cleansed" and "reborn" after Optimus Prime purified it by allowing the Swarm to consume him with the Matrix inside him - thus unleashing the purifying effect of the Matrix which transformed the Swarm into a new force... that force eventually calling itself the Vok. And they even resurrected Optimus Prime after having destroyed him, awfully decent! :D

"Oww!" http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/c/c0/Swarmoptimus.jpg


I just can't even get over why in Season 1 they seem preoccupied with preserving the environment and blah and then now progress to being the gate keepers of all time and space?
The Vok are attempting to make up for the sins that they committed as the Swarm - and the Swarm itself being a product of the collective sins of the Transformers race. As a result they've appointed themselves as keepers of time and space, whereas previously they were destroyers. As for Earth, they were conducting experiments on Earth and thus they wanted to keep their experiment uncontaminated by outside factors. As to what the exact nature and purpose of the experiment was, it's never been revealed (probably intended too but didn't get the opportunity).


And it might have been a rush job but that single episode is below the crappiness of some of the 1st season's worst which I did not think could be replicated. Hell, I just could not believe how two year old the whole plot device was. It took very little imagination and the whole episode then brings in the whole convenant, mystical angle that I honestly for the life of me could not even accept if it wasn't rushed. It's just a WTH and there are a hundred better ways they could have introduced the character of Tigerhawk.
And you know that the writers had intended to introduce Tigerhawk in a better way... but again, constrained from orders from Hasbro.


I keep hearing the "you've got to understand" line when it comes to the end of Season 3 but no excuse could be made for such lame writing.
So what would you have done if you were in DiTillio and Forward's position? Imagine that you've already written up to "Go With The Flow" and production for Season 3 episodes up to that point are already underway, so you can't go back and change any of it. Now you've been told that you must conclude the Beast Wars story within the next 5 episodes and you also have to:
+ Replace Blackarachnia with Transmetal 2 Blackarachnia
+ Remove Depth Charge
+ Introduce Tigerhawk
+ Replace Transmetal Megatron with Transmetal 2 Megatron
...under those conditions how would you have written the ending of Season 3?

This if course is all easier to do with the luxury of 9 years' worth of hindsight too. :D

I'm not saying that the ending of Season 3 is good and I'm not asking you to like it. But I am asking you to understand and appreciate why it's like that. For example, I really hate The Rebirth. It's complete and utter crapulence to the extreme. Give me any other version of the Headmasters/Targetmasters story over that Primus-forsaken atrocity of a story to me any time.

But at the same time, I do understand and appreciate that the story was intended to be better than it was by David Wise, but that due to factors beyond his control (i.e.: orders from Hasbro and Sunbow) it had to be modified. Bastardised? Sure... but I don't blame Wise for it. Dave Wise gave us some of the best stories in the G1 cartoon such as "The Key to Vector Sigma" and "War Dawn." He was one of the writers on the G1 cartoon, along with Earl Kreiss and Flint Dille who wanted to write Transformers as science fiction. Kreiss and Wise were, like Furman, DiTillio and Forward, "world builders." Tolkien is a good example of a 'world builder.'


I think it's fair to take some of these "writers intentions" with as much validity as fanfic retcons. Stuff that's added later to a series can be good and bad. The actual series doesn't not explain who the Vok are.
The Swarm-Vok connection has been officially retconned by Primeval Dawn.

From that wiki link:
"Now established as the enlightened descendants of (the) Swarm, the Vok's goal in guiding Earth's development was to atone for their shameful and destructive past."

[kup]

Didn't DiTillio and Forward say in the DVD extras Interview that they had intended to connect the Vok with the G2 Swarm but they were never able to do so thanks to Hasbro wanting to end the series all of a sudden?

My biggest grievance with the end of Beast Wars is that it was never allowed to continue as it was intended. So many awesome concepts that were introduced but sadly never had the opportunity to be developed thanks to Hasbro wanting to 'reinvent' Transformers so unexpectedly and without good reason.

Yeah, you will hear me say that the lowest point for me in Beast Wars was the final episodes of the third season but I agree with Gok, I can't blame the writers for it since they were forced to conclude the series pretty much in the last minute after having planned to continue for a whole extra season.

They pretty much made the best of what they could under very difficult circumstances.

That is why I am more critical of bad Animated episodes and Beast Machines than the BW Season 3 ending. With BM and Animated it was a conscious artistic choice from the producers to take (are taking) the series in their respective directions while in Beast Wars, they were forced to conclude the series and add a whole bunch of stuff in just 4 episodes after counting on a whole extra season to tell the story.

To be honest, DiTillion and Forward did amazingly well considering the circumstances, I don't think that I would have been able to do the same particularly when there must have been a lot of frustration and anger about the sudden Hasbro decision but despite that, they attempted to conclude the series on a high note instead of the too easy 'To hell with this'.

[Paulbot]

The Swarm-Vok connection has been officially retconned by Primeval Dawn.
[/i]

Despite who the Authors are, those and the Botcon stories seem more like fanfic to me, but eitherway people like STL and Soundwarp and whomever should be able to watch the show and understand what's going on. The other stories should expand or enhance the viewing expeirence. Making the Vok the evolution of an ill-defined entity from a couple of low-selling comics doesn't do that for me. I'm more than happy for the Vok to be Beast Wars' own ill-defined entity.

[GoktimusPrime]

Despite who the Authors are, those and the Botcon stories seem more like fanfic to me,
Afaik Primeval Dawn was published under license from Hasbro Inc., which makes it official canon.


but eitherway people like STL and Soundwarp and whomever should be able to watch the show and understand what's going on. The other stories should expand or enhance the viewing expeirence. Making the Vok the evolution of an ill-defined entity from a couple of low-selling comics doesn't do that for me. I'm more than happy for the Vok to be Beast Wars' own ill-defined entity.
Well officially the Vok has been retconned as being an evolution of the Swarm but it's not utterly essential for viewers to know this. Such is the nature of expanded universe material I suppose, but I personally prefer to delve into that kind of stuff. I'll never look at the ending of the Transformers movie with Starscream flying off into orbit the same way ever again after reading "The Reign of Starscream." ;)