Diecast metal

[Magnus]

One topic of discussion that pops up every now and then is the use of diecast metal (or lack thereof) in Transformers, particularly (of late) Masterpieces. I couldn't find a pre-existing thread for the topic, so I wanted to open up discussion about using it.

What do you think? Pros? Cons? Should it be used, and if so, how much?

[GoktimusPrime]

Pros: It can make vehicle modes look beautiful. Just compare Binaltechs with Alternators; there's no contest. Metal feet can also help improve the base stability of a toy (e.g. MP22).

Cons: Paint may become chipped, although this is dependent on the quality of the paint. Good quality paint is much more resistant/durable. Die-cast metal is also apparently more expensive as a material, which is why (I think) Transformers phased out die-cast metal parts in 1986. This is why many 1986 Transformers have metal and plastic variants (e.g. metal toed Hot Rod, plastic toed Hot Rod et al.).

Mind you, the price differential becomes moot if they're going to charge approximately the same price for a plastic version of a toy as a metal one. I got metal-toed Hot Rod in 1986, but plastic-toed Kup... just as well I got Kup on clearance for $5, but still. The initial prices for Alternators in Australia was about the same as pre-ordering Binaltechs from HLJ. So naturally I just pre-ordered BTs from HLJ! Alternator prices did significantly go down later with sales, but when comparing full retail prices, I felt BTs gave me far better value for money. As for how much metal to be used, I think on most large vehicle panels is good (e.g. bonnet, roof, doors), but you don't want almost every part of the toy to be metal. That was something that I didn't like with Titanium Series.

[UltraMarginal]

Use of materials is greatly influenced by the intended design. personally I only really like Die Case as ballast e.g. elements of feet or something as mentioned by Goki.

metal is much harder than plastic so any moving parts where the two meet, and metal is going to win every time wearing the plastic quickly and making a joint loose.

Metal also fatigues a lot faster than plastic, there is no way die cast metal could be used for most applications in modern transformers as a direct substitute for the plastic being used at the moment. it might be stronger at face value, but, I guarantee you it will fatigue and crack much faster. In parts that are thin it will also bend and stay bent, where plastic can yield and then take it's original shape. Die Cast can do this but not to the same degree as most plastics used today.

my 2c:o

[drifand]

Mp-1 equals real masterpiece, all else high grade toy.
That's my take on lack of metal. Like Gok, just hold a Japanese binaltech smokescreen . Then hold any of your masterpiece cars. Absolute no comparison.

When I saw masterpiece starscream and megatron, I was very let down on the path they took.

But plastic give you bigger toys like titans metroplex.

As for a toy that uses metal and transforms, the macross chogokin line by bandai uses metal for their planes.

[DELTAprime]

Along with the paint issue which is my biggest problem the additional cost of the product and shipping. I see no need for it. MP-22 could have done without diecast.

The MMPR Legacy Zord's use a ton of diecast. The knee joints of the Dino Megazord actually need braces to take the weight. I would have preferred painted plastic on those figures. Paint is what makes figures like Binaltech look better, not diecast.

[loophole]

I personally don't get the whole die cast thing don't really care for it same with rubber tyres.
It can be used well to help balance a figure if it needs but otherwise there is no need for it, as Delta stated it's the paint that makes the figure look better not if it's die cast or plastic.

[CoRDS]

i want as much metal as possible in my masterpiece style figures.
but i want it done in the proper way. not just metal for the sake of it.

i really enjoy the way fanstoys use metal in their figures.

[Trent]

Mp-1 equals real masterpiece, all else high grade toy.
That's my take on lack of metal. Like Gok, just hold a Japanese binaltech smokescreen . Then hold any of your masterpiece cars. Absolute no comparison.

When I saw masterpiece starscream and megatron, I was very let down on the path they took.

But plastic give you bigger toys like titans metroplex.

As for a toy that uses metal and transforms, the macross chogokin line by bandai uses metal for their planes.

And that is the biggest problem with them. The metal joints become loose just from sitting there and no matter what you do you end up with a floppy Valk.

Die fast used sparingly and with thought can add a lot to a toy. Die cast for die casts sake is dumb and makes the figures worse.

[millhouse]

Like a number of other posters have said, it comes down to how it's used in the product's engineering.

I personally prefer rubber tyres as I feel they roll better, but other than that, I want it to look right and be durable, while not costing the earth.

If minimising die cast is the answer to those factors, then minimise it.

[millhouse]

Mp-1 equals real masterpiece, all else high grade toy.

I've never had a MP-1 mould that has stood up properly, and I've owned two. Add to that the two my cousin has owned.

Every MP-10 I've seen has stood wonderfully.

[GoktimusPrime]

My MP1 can stand (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vYCqNbzRjg), although admittedly it is more prone to tipping over than other MPs.

MP1 has metal on the chest and legs, whereas toys like MP Megatron, Rodimus and MP22 Ultra Magnus have metal feet but the rest is plastic, allowing the metal feet to act as stabilising ballast. MP Megatron needs the metal feet to counterbalance the weight of the massive fusion cannon. It's unfortunate that the feet are prone to rust, but I haven't encountered this issue w/ MP Rodimus or Magnus, so it seems that TakTOM learnt their mistake from MP5. This big toys are more prone to falling over during play, and having weighted feet really helps to stabilise them. So in this sense, the use of die-cast metal is used more for practical reasons rather than cosmetic one. Although I don't mind metal being used for cosmetic reasons, so long as it's done properly. I don't mind plastic toys... I just wish that some of them were cheaper. e.g. Alternities cost about as much as Binaltechs, despite being smaller and more plastic! :eek:

[5FDP]

I prefer diecast. It tastes good and is full of ruffage.

[sideswipes brother]

I prefer diecast. It tastes good and is full of ruffage.

Dont forget the rubber tyres for protein!;)

[Bidoofdude]

I think die cast is tough to pull off. When used in the feet, it can add much needed stability. If used in the top of the figure proportionately more than in the bottom, it can ruin a toy by making it topheavy. Paint is also hit or miss with most die cast parts.

It's like rubber tyres. Sure, they look much and feel much more authentic/high quality, but they corrode, can easily break and add a little more to the cost. I prefer plastic tyres/wheels, especially if the hubcaps are painted right (which unfortunately doesn't happen often).

[sideswipes brother]

I think die cast is tough to pull off. When used in the feet, it can add much needed stability. If used in the top of the figure proportionately more than in the bottom, it can ruin a toy by making it topheavy. Paint is also hit or miss with most die cast parts.

It's like rubber tyres. Sure, they look much and feel much more authentic/high quality, but they corrode, can easily break and add a little more to the cost. I prefer plastic tyres/wheels, especially if the hubcaps are painted right (which unfortunately doesn't happen often).

This is actually a very good point. When hubcaps are done right, they really make a vehicle 'POP'

[Deonasis]

plastic is my favoured TF material but die cast does have its place with its regidity and weight.

[Kapryiath]

Mp-1 equals real masterpiece, all else high grade toy.
s.


I've never had a MP-1 mould that has stood up properly, and I've owned two. Add to that the two my cousin has owned.

Every MP-10 I've seen has stood wonderfully.

this, this is exactly why i think diecast has uses, but playing the major part in a figures make up just isn't it .

all 4 of my mp01 molds don't stand very well and have loose ankles i'm sure mostly due to the weight placed on them by the figure, where as my 3 mp10 mold's stand just fine in many dynamic poses without issues ( gavity aside)

[GoktimusPrime]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/bw_diecast_zpseb9a101a.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAs35e-8IJ4)
And who didn't laugh/applaud at the TV when they first heard this line? ;)

[drifand]

I am not condemning plastic either, I just feel if you use it correctly is a wonderful gloss to the paint job.

The thing is this, I have seperated mp1 as a masterpiece because it really stands out from the other mps.

Sure mp-10 can pose very well, I didn't say it's not. I only feel it lacked a lot of depth when I compare the two. Mp-10 just feels like a good high grade figure. The riffle is short, I think they were trying too hard to fold the weapon.

Magnus on the other hand is well done. Rodimus is by far my worst mp.

Perhaps some of you should see bandai's gundam metal build, they hold in position extremely well but however they are not transformers .

Whenever I look at my display shelf, I find the binaltech just pops more than my masterpieces.

To me masterpiece sounds like top grade premium toy, non rubber wheels and the lack of certain amount of diecast doesn't sound or look premium.

I sat back in mp10 and sideswipe because they were really not that impressive. But basically when TT decides to go down this path and I do enjoy 80s car designs, I took the bait.

Besides Starsaber and a few non g1 mps I have decided to draw a line and sort only a handful of car autobots I still am keen for. I am sure I be influenced to collect others but I am nearly done with my masterpieces.

[GoktimusPrime]

Perhaps some of you should see bandai's gundam metal build, they hold in position extremely well but however they are not transformers .
Yeah, unless those robots transform into vehicles, then it's not really comparable. Some people make comparisons with Macross, citing that some of their toys make Masterpiece Transformers look like child's play. Although Macross vehicles are all fictitious and not based on real world licensed vehicles. And we all know what happened when an MP Transformer was designed by a Macross designer (http://www.oafe.net/yo/art/tf_20star12.jpg). :rolleyes:

[drifand]

Yeah, unless those robots transform into vehicles, then it's not really comparable. Some people make comparisons with Macross, citing that some of their toys make Masterpiece Transformers look like child's play. Although Macross vehicles are all fictitious and not based on real world licensed vehicles. And we all know what happened when an MP Transformer was designed by a Macross designer (http://www.oafe.net/yo/art/tf_20star12.jpg). :rolleyes:

That is true, sometimes is just the company that decides what material they want in the end.

The bad thing is hasbro Asia is just notorious for charging way premium for the masterpiece toy. That is not really helping to be honest.

Btw most of my critic is focus on takara rather than hasbro, as I always look to takara as the premium.

[Magnus]

When it comes to toys, especially Transformers with lots of moving parts, I think plastic is better - it's lighter, leading to less stress on joints, and plastic has a lower likelihood of paint chipping (this is pretty much negated if the plastic is already the desired colour :p) I will concede that the extra heft of a figure with a lot of diecast 'feels' better, but I'm not sure it outweighs the downsides of more stress on joints and paint flaking off. I also have an MP-1 (specifically the Hasbro 20th Anniversary release), and it suffers from paint chipping and flaking, and occasionally topples over, sometimes resulting in a popped ankle.

I think diecast should really only be used on critical joints and load-bearing structures, or in legs and feet for stability.

Diecast model cars are a different story because they have far fewer moving parts and joints (particularly weight-bearing joints) and the paint is often of better quality.


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/bw_diecast_zpseb9a101a.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAs35e-8IJ4)
And who didn't laugh/applaud at the TV when they first heard this line? ;)

Yes, I thought of that line when I created this thread :rolleyes:


As an aside, I recall reading that MP-1, despite its numbering, was actually meant to be a one-off, and that when it was decided to continue the line, it became too costly to make MPs so big and with so much metal, hence the resize and emphasis on plastic starting with MP-3. No idea where I read that, but it wasn't TFWiki.

[kurdt_the_goat]

I like a little bit of diecast cause I like my toys to have a feeling of heft. I think generally speaking, the lighter feeling it is, the cheaper it feels.

Good design can really make diecast work across the entire figure though. The recent King of Beast Golion is a fantastic example - probably 80% of it is metal but the engineering is top notch so there's no sagging at the connection points at all!

Transformers tend to have more moving parts (and parts that shift place between modes) so it becomes a bit more difficult to place the metal. I'd say they've done a good balancing job with the larger MP toys.

[drifand]

The thing is Transformers are not famous for using metal.
So when mp-1 was launched it was a huge eye opener even to non transformers fans. The binaltech series just made things of what I would expect from the masterpiece line.

Note, I didn't care for all other transformers toy line as it is expected to be not as premium as the mps. When sideswipe came out, it was really like "oh is that it? All plastic?" It took a while for me to sink in, lower my expectations by quite a bit before I started to enjoy the masterpieces again.

Yes cost is a factor, but this is masterpiece we are talking about.

[GoktimusPrime]

As an aside, I recall reading that MP-1, despite its numbering, was actually meant to be a one-off, and that when it was decided to continue the line, it became too costly to make MPs so big and with so much metal, hence the resize and emphasis on plastic starting with MP-3. No idea where I read that, but it wasn't TFWiki.
That sounds about right. I remember when MP1 came out, a lot of official promotional photography from Takara showed MP1 interacting with Binaltechs. And MP1 came out around the same time as BT1 Smokescreen. Between 2004*-11, we had 5 MP moulds (Convoy, Starscream, Megatron, Grimlock, Rodimus); so 5 moulds in a 7 year period. Compare this with 13 MP moulds created from 2011 (starting from MP10) to 2015 (up to MP24); 13 moulds in 4 years or 12 if you don't count MP11 as a new mould, either way, it's a significantly higher volume of moulds than pre-MP10. I'd say that MP10 onwards has seen a significantly more concerted focus and drive in developing the MP line.

_______________________________
*Yeah, I know that MP1 came out in December 2003, but for all intents and purposes, it's really a 2004 toy because the box features the 2004 20th Anniversary logo. I'd say that Takara released it in December to capitalise on the Xmas shopping period. Besides, how many of us were lucky enough to receive our MP1s in December 03? I pre-ordered mine and didn't get it until January. :o

[drifand]

But even with plastic, the quality does show some lacking when you compare to alternators. I still remembered my G1 streak feels a bit heavy and solid slightly.

[Trent]

Yeah, unless those robots transform into vehicles, then it's not really comparable. Some people make comparisons with Macross, citing that some of their toys make Masterpiece Transformers look like child's play. Although Macross vehicles are all fictitious and not based on real world licensed vehicles. And we all know what happened when an MP Transformer was designed by a Macross designer (http://www.oafe.net/yo/art/tf_20star12.jpg). :rolleyes:

Remind me again what sort of licenced vehicle MP Rodimus is? :p

[drifand]

Remind me again what sort of licenced vehicle MP Rodimus is? :p

I actually can't believe they passed the QC on the hands, now I pose him in one position and leave him there for good. The Hasbro was a big improvement but not great.

[GoktimusPrime]

Remind me again what sort of licenced vehicle MP Rodimus is? :p
The same auto (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Toei) company (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sunbow) that produced MP Grimlock's vehicle and MP22 Ultra Magnus' trailer, duh. :p

[drifand]

Its has occured to me, this is where most MISB collectors will laugh and don't give a toss what it is made off inside.

[Megatran]

Its has occured to me, this is where most MISB collectors will laugh and don't give a toss what it is made off inside.
:mad: I don't know where you get your facts from. Mocking MISB collectors (or any other 'group' of collector) is distasteful.

[drifand]

:mad: I don't know where you get your facts from. Mocking MISB collectors (or any other 'group' of collector) is distasteful.

My sincere apologies, however it just occurs to me why would he/she bother if there was diecast involved? Its sealed, its not going to be really touched or anything other than the weight of a heavy box or lighter box. Same thing with rubber tyres, I don't think MISB collectors would bother to open to find their rubbers have rot or dried up? And thats the beauty of being MISB, don't really have to know basis. The first thing you be caring is fading of the box or a dent.

This is different by the way from a collector that have both MISB and opened toy in hand. If you feel different please explain how metal in this case will really enhance your experience other than it being heavy or lighter box. I wasn't mocking, I am in fact envying in some ways because this is where I felt it didn't mattered as much as compared to a person who is playing the toy in hand. And most of the debate here are from people who transforms and plays with the toy. Hence it was a matter of good or bad to have metal in Transformers toys.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm not really a sealed collector, but I imagine that some benefits might include:
* Visual appeal. A lot of car-formers look nicer in nicely painted die-cast metal. And rubber tyres look nicer than plastic ones. It can be nice to stare at them through windows. Binaltech boxes have three windows to allow you to look at it from the top, side, front and back while still in box.
* Value for money. Whether you intend to keep it sealed or open it, if a BT costs the same as an ALT, why not get the BT?

[Trent]

:mad: I don't know where you get your facts from. Mocking MISB collectors (or any other 'group' of collector) is distasteful.

Ofcourse not. Mocking box collectors is heaps of fun :p

[drifand]

I'm not really a sealed collector, but I imagine that some benefits might include:
* Visual appeal. A lot of car-formers look nicer in nicely painted die-cast metal. And rubber tyres look nicer than plastic ones. It can be nice to stare at them through windows. Binaltech boxes have three windows to allow you to look at it from the top, side, front and back while still in box.
* Value for money. Whether you intend to keep it sealed or open it, if a BT costs the same as an ALT, why not get the BT?

Because it isn't available in BT? lol
The Ford Mirage and Hot Rod was kind of a bummer that no BT version was made, they were all platistic even the jp version. But saying that, It did showed how good plastic can be if done properly, Mirage and Hot rod were pretty nice I felt, though if it was metal with metallic it will shine more.

Oh and heres the thing about MISB, if it was showing like BT with window, yes it may make a difference as you get to see the toy. However if its like all the current TT mps, then is no more than the weight of the toy.

Here's the thing though, I have never really regarded the Masterpiece line as a playing toy, hence why I felt metal and rubber wheels should be done as it will be more like a display piece.

Transformers in general > I go plastic. Hope this makes more sense. I always have regarded the Masterpiece line to be their top of the line range.
While Wheeljack is a great figure, I am sure some of you felt the white was being very lazy and doesn't felt enough depth. For me the Streak mp was really one of the best painted car mps so far.

[GoktimusPrime]

Because it isn't available in BT? lol
The Ford Mirage and Hot Rod was kind of a bummer that no BT version was made, they were all platistic even the jp version. But saying that, It did showed how good plastic can be if done properly, Mirage and Hot rod were pretty nice I felt, though if it was metal with metallic it will shine more.
. . . . .

I said...

if a BT costs the same as an ALT, why not get the BT?
Obviously if a die-cast metal version doesn't exist, then there's no comparison to be made. (-_-)


Oh and heres the thing about MISB, if it was showing like BT with window, yes it may make a difference as you get to see the toy. However if its like all the current TT mps, then is no more than the weight of the toy.
Sure, I personally don't see the appeal of keeping a windowless boxed toy sealed, as you can't even physically see the toy. But you know what? If someone else chooses to keep their toys sealed, that's their prerogative. I personally think it's silly not to play with your toys; to me it's like owning a car and never driving it. But some people DO collect cars and not drive them (my father bought an imported Lexus Soarer (the console buttons, display etc. are all in Japanese! I had to come over and translate the controls for him after he got the car) from such a collector; the car was 20 years old but in near-new condition because it'd been hardly driven).

At the end of the day, what people do with their own things is nobody else's business but theirs. If someone wants to play, fiddle, display, customise or keep their toys sealed, then that's their own business.


Here's the thing though, I have never really regarded the Masterpiece line as a playing toy, hence why I felt metal and rubber wheels should be done as it will be more like a display piece.
And this is how some people feel about all Transformers, and to a higher level where they don't want to open it. To them it's a display piece, not a play thing. Again, it's not my thing, personally... but if other people wanna do it, then good for them. It doesn't affect the way I enjoy my toys, so why should I care? Someone else doesn't want to open their MPs? You don't want to play with your MPs? Okay, I don't personally subscribe to that, but if you guys want to treat your MPs that way, good for you. It doesn't stop me from opening and playing w/ my MPs the way that I want to. :)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Masterpiece%20Nissan/mp_bluestreak05_zps3c21a11b.jpg

[drifand]

I do open mine, I bought toys to enjoy the engineering involved.I also do have MISB toys but thats only because I have not gotten the time to open them but I will. Likewise, what people do with your own toys is YOUR business.

I was referring that mps were the higher range and hence they should add diecast and rubber wheels. The plastic wheels does not really feels like a masterpiece unlike what was done in the BT/ alternators line.
What I am saying here is, "what does the word "Masterpiece" means?"
Just a toy line?
Or a permium toy line?
Nothing but absolute perfect toy product as described "a masterpiece"

It would have been interesting to see a Starscream/Megatron mp11 in diecast form. (dont get mistaken on the mp-5 as there is metal, I mean real metal across)

[GoktimusPrime]

masterpiece
/ˈmɑːstəpiːs/
noun
a work of outstanding artistry, skill, or workmanship.

I personally think that this does adequately describe the Masterpiece series. Sure, the toys aren't perfect (but no toy really is), but they are outstanding. Do rubber tyres or die-cast metal improve the toy's quality? That's a subjective question that's dependent on one's personal standards. As we've seen in this discussion, there are pros and cons to metal and rubber vs. plastic. Just because a toy is plastic, doesn't necessarily make it inferior per se. My only gripe is that, as a cheaper material over metal, I'd wish that the more plastic toys could be cheaper. But even $100 for an MP Car is still loads better value than the same price for a same-priced Age of Extinction Leader Class toy! :o

[loophole]

Why does diecast and rubber tyres equate to premium and high quality?
High quality and premium to me means great engineering with good quality parts including plastics good quality paint with great paint application. Little to none qc issues.
People keep comparing alt and blt because of the diecast but isn't it the actual paint that makes the blt look nicer I bet you could make the alts look just as nice with the same paint and you wouldn't know the difference...

[drifand]

Why does diecast and rubber tyres equate to premium and high quality?
High quality and premium to me means great engineering with good quality parts including plastics good quality paint with great paint application. Little to none qc issues.
People keep comparing alt and blt because of the diecast but isn't it the actual paint that makes the blt look nicer I bet you could make the alts look just as nice with the same paint and you wouldn't know the difference...

Because of the following:
1. The metal give a deeper shine to the toy which equals higher grade of quality, As I pointed, Wheeljack mp felt lack of paint on White plastic.

2. The rubber tyres debate is because toy car collectors DO NOT collect toy cars with plastic wheels (in their premium range, not referring to matchbox cars here) is a slap to them, hence the follow suit here in a Masterpiece line, not for other transformers though.

"I bet you could make the alts look just as nice with the same paint and you wouldn't know the difference..."

There is a difference and this is coming from someone who owns nearly the entire set. You can compare Swindle BT vs Alternators version, The Namesis Prime and the alt version, close but not as deep in colour. Not to mention the White Jazz RX8 in metal and plastic, Big difference.

If rubber tyers were bad, why bother to do it on optimus and Magnus?

I am not denying the disadvantages of metal and rubber tyres. However, that is the premium way of a product. Using metal wrongly as stated is bad.

Probably why you don't see Bandai making Soul of Plastickin as its not something they would consider premium and hence they produce a cheaper range line for those with the exact same mecha.

Mind you, there isn't any point for me to whinge about it as I don't make the decisions of what TT decides, they decide plastic wheels and so it is. I am just pointing out what I felt the mp line lacked but you guys are still happy to pay premium for it.

[GoktimusPrime]

People keep comparing alt and blt because of the diecast but isn't it the actual paint that makes the blt look nicer I bet you could make the alts look just as nice with the same paint and you wouldn't know the difference...
Which is what TakaraTOMY did with Alternity and the MP Cars (that paint w/ the nice glossy finish). :) Alternators definitely could've looked nicer if Hasbro had bothered to slap some paints on them, or selected better plastic colours. But unfortunately, Hasbro simply didn't do this for Alternators. :o


Because of the following:
1. The metal give a deeper shine to the toy which equals higher grade of quality, As I pointed, Wheeljack mp felt lack of paint on White plastic.
But if they had applied a glossy pearl white coat of paint on Wheeljack, then would it still matter to you that it was painted plastic and not metal? Look at the paint job on say MP Streak, that looks pretty damn good IMO.


2. The rubber tytes debate is because toy car collectors DO NOT collect toy cars with plastic wheels, is a slap to them, hence the follow suit here in a Masterpiece line, not for other transformers though.
That's still a very subjective standard that you're using there. It depends on whether or not you view Masterpieces as scale model cars first and transformable action figures second. This is more something that BT/Alternators marketed itself as; and as I understand it, one reason why Hasbro had to name Alternators Meister "Meister" instead of Autobot Jazz, was because the toy fell under the miniature car trademark instead of action figure trademark, and they couldn't even use the word "Jazz" at all in a toy car, even with "Autobot" stuck in front of it (probably because of the Honda Jazz?). Subsequent Jazz toys (e.g. Movie, Animated, RtS etc.) did not have this problem, as they fell under the jurisdiction of action figures, and Hasbro were able to call them "Autobot Jazz."

If you personally view MPs as replica vehicles first, that's fine, but not everybody necessarily holds them to that same standard. I personally see them as action figures first. Binaltechs, Alternators and Alternities are more of what I consider to be replica vehicle-formers; BTs/ALTs go into insane details with seats, steering wheels, dashboards, gear sticks, park brakes, bonnet, engine, boot, steering et al. MPs don't do that, as their engineering is more focused on translating cartoon models into fun toys (making the 'impossible' possible). BTs/ALTs aren't at all constrained by this; the robots just need to bear a recognisable resemblance to the characters, but otherwise they have a far greater range of freedom in terms of design and engineering.

[drifand]

Hence why we have people going overrating mp-10 as compared to a solid figure mp-1. You have just answered the question, the current mp line is action figure focused not really premium. The box is just a way to deceive collectors thinking it is premium.

Whether I regard the vehicle as first priority over the robot mode, which btw all my binaltech and alternaters are displayed in robot form, the difference is there and noticable.

MP streak, yes, wonderful paint, does it have the same detail level as a Binaltech Streak? nope.
Also when scratched, a metal piece will feel and looks realistic, as you will see bare metal where plastic you wouldn't.

Can paint make a difference? Yes of course, I do model kits. lol
However paint on plastic has its limitation to what metal can show.

I know.....my expectations for the mp line are just way up there. However, this is from someone who started to enjoy collecting Transformers ONLY when binaltech was introduced. Hence why I was happy with mp-1 and then the quick decline when everthing went really cheap but charge you the premium.

I started to love back Transformers because of the premium quality, I am sadly ready to go off after I collected my last few mp checklist. Don't get me wrong that TT didn't do a great job, they did. But it isn't really what I expected from the masterpiece line after mp-1.

Would I be willing to pay more for the metal? Hell yes.

[loophole]

Because of the following:
1. The metal give a deeper shine to the toy which equals higher grade of quality

I am sorry but this is just plan wrong. I am a spray painter by trade and the material that we paint on does not make any difference to the quality of shine it is the quality of paint that counts. A lot of the high end cars like Audis and BMWs actually have plastic front guards, sometimes bonnets next to other metal panels and overall there is no difference to the shine of the paint from one panel to another. The substrate that paint is applied to has no bearing to the outcome of the "paint quality".

[drifand]

I am sorry but this is just plan wrong. I am a spray painter by trade and the material that we paint on does not make any difference to the quality of shine it is the quality of paint that counts. A lot of the high end cars like Audis and BMWs actually have plastic front guards, sometimes bonnets next to other metal panels and overall there is no difference to the shine of the paint from one panel to another. The substrate that paint is applied to has no bearing to the outcome of the "paint quality".

you are right, the paint doesn't make a difference.
I just dont see it on our mp line too often. my bad.

Overall though, I don't think transformers were meant to be diecast which was why I was never overly interested in them. Did I mentioned too much BT in this thread? I probably did.

I guess the general feel of a diecast toy imo feels premium but hey whatever. Its not happening. Be happy with what they provide or don't buy it. /thread

[BigTransformerTrev]

Personally I'd prefer to see more Transformers made out of ceramic, or perhaps terracotta

[drifand]

Personally I'd prefer to see more Transformers made out of ceramic, or perhaps terracotta

Wouldn't that break easily?

I have seen titanium and it doesnt do that great either. Wrong type of metal is also a bad thing.

[Trent]

Wouldn't that break easily?

I have seen titanium and it doesnt do that great either. Wrong type of metal is also a bad thing.

He forgot to use the sarcasm font ;)

[drifand]

Well wrong plastic can get brittle and break as well.

[BigTransformerTrev]

He forgot to use the sarcasm font ;)

Which one is the sarcasm font? And can you tell me which one is the 'taking-the-piss' font because I'll use that one a lot ;)

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Remind me again what sort of licenced vehicle MP Rodimus is? :p
YOu mean you don't know about the flame painted Space Winnebago?:eek:


2. The rubber tyres debate is because toy car collectors DO NOT collect toy cars with plastic wheels (in their premium range, not referring to matchbox cars here) is a slap to them, hence the follow suit here in a Masterpiece line, not for other transformers though.

I dont mind plastic wheels, the wheel colour on Wheeljack makes it look more cartoony than rubber would. Plus those of us with RID Optimus Prime's rubber wheels all know how badly they can go (-_-)

[Cleon]

Having Diecast or not doesn't really bother me, but a few observations:

If done on the right toy that's well designed it can be excellent (I'm thinking MP-01, or 04 which is the one I have). The thing has a nice weight to it and it stands up without any issues (Mine has never toppled over, and everything is still tight to this day).

I think the diecast giving the quite substantial figure some weight is really nice (I'm a fan of watches as well, and a lot of people prefer stainless steel over other materials, like titanium, in part because of the weight it gives the watch. Not that I can afford an expensive watch myself..)

My Alternity Prime on the other hand I greatly dislike the diecast. He's way too top heavy, and if I recall correctly, the thing that's holding him up is a plastic heel (that may have been something I did upon recommendations from others, because he kept toppling over).

Having said that though, I wouldn't pay a premium for Diecast (I'm lucky I got my MP-04 prime for about as much as I'm going to pay for the re-issue of MP-10), which is probably why I got alternators instead of binaltech.

[Magnus]

I thought the idea behind the Masterpieces was that they represented the best engineering possible for a given figure. Since this means that they often have very intricate, involved transformations, I don't think this lends them to diecast construction, because of the stresses on the joints as a result of the extra weight. Of course, the quality of the plastic is also important; I would have bought MP-3 Starscream (I didn't mind the colour) were it not for the reports of fragile plastic.

[drifand]

The thing is.....they are saving cost on paint.

If its diecast you have to paint the metal. If its plastic you can decide to use the colour moulded plastic. Hope this makes sense, I didn't thought about it but realise they have been cutting corners with just that.

[Trent]

The thing is.....they are saving cost on paint.

If its diecast you have to paint the metal. If its plastic you can decide to use the colour moulded plastic. Hope this makes sense, I didn't thought about it but realise they have been cutting corners with just that.

Most of the MP cars are painted plastic. So is Takara MP-10. So no real cost saving there.

[drifand]

Most of the MP cars are painted plastic. So is Takara MP-10. So no real cost saving there.

I can find bits and pieces that are moulded colour not painted. This is where, it shows.

You sure about mp-10? I am quite sure the grey legs are plastic, and partial painted red? < I may be wrong but it does look like moulded colour rather than painted.

You are correct on the red, I believe.

Is the YOTH version arms painted or just darker red?

[CBratron]

Maybe some diecast for ballast in the feet or for small structural parts like in the middle of MP-10. Other than that, I don't really see a need for diecast parts in modern transformers.

I reckon modern plastics and structural design practices are sufficient for a solid transformer.

[drifand]

I agree, I wouldn't go "over" the top. I have toys in other lines where is full plastic and at high cost. It just doesn't feel justified for what you pay.

I dunno, purhaps people just don't mind paying high prices for all plastic toy.

Edit I just went to check on my mp10 it is moulded red rather than painted. Anyone wants to verify ?
The parts painted are actually the face, chrome parts, silver on body and the yellow arrows on hands. Most of the blue is plastic blue.

I looked at mp streak and yes almost everything is painted, only the red plastic, the silver fist and partial legs.

Well looks like I am just not happy with the paint work rather than diecast. I would admit that. But I did justify that the difference is for die cast, they are forced to paint as opposed to just using coloured plastic.

[Magnus]

I recently found out that part of MP22's torso/trailer deck is made of diecast metal. Since this is a pretty thin piece, and forms the 'foundation' of the robot mode's torso, I think it's a good example of using metal for strength.

[UltraMarginal]

I agree, I wouldn't go "over" the top. I have toys in other lines where is full plastic and at high cost. It just doesn't feel justified for what you pay..
The material cost is such a small amount of the overall cost of design and development of any product.

It does factor in, but when there are hundreds of hours going into design, development and prototyping of a product, the final material cost is a consideration but not a primary one.

[Magnus]

Digging up my own thread here, but I want to post that I like the way that diecast metal is being used in the restarted Movie Masterpiece line. Since quite a few movieverse designs feature what looks like bare, unpainted metal, the use of metal adds to the appearance of the robots - Barricade is the only one who doesn't have unpainted metal.

It's also good to see that thought went into the placement of the metal - it's not there just for the sake of having it. MPM-3 Bumblebee and Barricade have it in their torsos, in parts that fold over and collapse during transformation, and all of the robots have it in their feet, which helps to keep the mass lower down in the body to counteract any top-heaviness. MPM-3 Bumblebee, Optimus, and Ironhide also have unpainted metal on their shins, again making the bottom of the figure heavier as well as adding to the appearance of the legs.

[Sinnertwin]

Meh, die cast is overrated. Give me a well designed toy that doesn't fold over on itself over a brick with steel any day of the week.
Yeah, they did it in the 80's, great, it was cheaper then too. A lot more people driving old cars, that were involved in head ons also had steering columns run through them because of poor design and material choice.

[Galvatran]

We can't discuss die cast metal in isolation without mentioning rubber tyres ("mines cracked :mad:"), paint application ("I've got paint blotches in some areas :("), QC issues ("waist swivel is a little loose on mine :eek:"), painted windows ("urgh saving cost by not using transparent plastic :rolleyes:")... Apologies for missing anything else.

[Sinnertwin]

Lack of moveable thumbs and/or articulated digits, price... any others?

[Galvatran]

Not enough / too many accessories.

NOT. TO. SCALE. (or doesn't scale well with my collection of <insert toy line here>.

[drifand]

I always thought the 3p could be the only provider that resolves most of these needs and wants.

The latest Fanbase double evil uses rubber tracks I think. It would have been nice an alternative is included. Some toys included spare tracks.

I always felt that for cars, someone could do a plastic and rubber wheels option.
This can be swapable and can go well.

The Transform Element Optimus was let down by lack of paint on red that it stands out. It can stand next to mp ironhide and start to look odd.

The masterpiece line should follow what sunstreaker is atm as that is something I am okay with for whatever future MPs is made as standard.

Soc voltron, i cant see how one would say that piece didn’t utilize diecast badly as it is made very well imo

[Dan]

I'm fond of both die-cast metal and rubber (or rubberized plastic) in my Transformers because of the formative experience of collecting G1 toys. Having said that, I understand the pros and cons and the fact that times change. These days, if anything I value having some trans-plastic (particularly light piping) over using non-plastics.

One curious thing I read recently said that, apparently, during the 70s, petroleum prices were such that plastic could be more expensive than die-cast, and this was a reason for the mixed composition.

Some of the best looking die-cast for me is unpainted. I'm looking right now at G1 Tracks and his metal shins look cool. Incidentally, they have a similar dull speckled appearance to the 'battle damage' paint effects in the Siege line which, if nothing else, makes me feel better about that particular gimmick. ;)

Just a note on wear and tear - I think how well one keeps toys plays a bigger role in how long they last than some of the factors debated here. I've had very few plastic-to-metal joint breaks, and no experiencing of rotting rubber, in my G1 collection, but that could partly be because they were always indoor toys, always packed away or returned to display, and rarely too forcefully played with.

In contrast, and under the same conditions, I've had more than a few cases of plastic crumbling in Transformers made this century.

[GoktimusPrime]

The fact is that die-cast metal was initially used at a time when it was cheaper than plastic. But then when plastic became cheaper than metal in 1986 they shifted to plastic. Neither decision was made based on quality concerns but due to cost-saving concerns. ;)