SPOILER THREAD: SW: The Force Awakens [Archive] - Ozformers Transformers Club of Australia (otca.com.au)

Meister

17th December 2015, 11:04 PM

i loved it but come on :p young person leaves desert planet trying to get droid containing important information to freedom fighters so they can find a way to destroy super weapon in last ditch effort as time counts down to their destruction. along the way they discover the force and their mentor, whom they only just met, is killed. which movie am i describing? ;)

Yeah, my thoughts exactly, even down to the Resistance base looking almost identical to the Yavin base, It was starting to be a little too much by the final act.

Add to that an opening scene where the good guys are caught by the bad guys, with the bad dude making his ominous appearance whilst the good guy hides the secret plans in a droid and sends him off to travel through a desert before being captured for interrogation, a canteena scene, a prison break/rescue mission, people after a certain smuggler for not delivering the goods, the young persons witnessing the mentor die at the hands of the bad guy, X wings having to travel through a trench to take out an Oscillator (aka exhaust chute) to destroy the "super mega force death star", with the addition of the new young force user traveling across the galaxy to find the last master Jedi to be trained how to become a jedi...

Like I said its pretty much a remake of A New Hope with bits of Empire and Jedi thrown in, but to be honest I also kind of got that feeling from the trailers leading up to it so my expectations weren't really shattered in anyway (although I wasn't expecting that many similar attributes to the original).

Regardless it still had its own unique parts and themes, and I definitely found the cinema experience thoroughly entertaining (was quite cool in 3D if I do say so myself), the characters were relatable and the story was told very well in my opinion (I'm intrigued and I want to know more about a lot of things, particularly Rey and Kylo), effects and cinematography were great although the score wasn't as memorable in my mind (other then when the old themes came out to shine), all up I came a way with a huge smile on my face and I can't wait to watch it again with my kids, not to mention I'm also left hanging to see what happens next, that indicates it was a positive experience for me so yeah, as far as I'm concerned well done Abrams on a successful reboot, now lets see how you go from here cause the next one will be make or break in my eyes and I don't think you will be able to hide in the comfort of repetition again, the next one definitely has to stand out on its own (story wise that is)

UltimateGalvatron

17th December 2015, 11:18 PM

I loved it. Tired so can't say more for now. BB-8 and Rey were surprisingly awesome.

Gofigure

17th December 2015, 11:39 PM

Yeah I dug it. Being an older fan I get the whole poetry thing happening with this and it didn't bother me one bit. Great flick

Lots of laughs along the way....really having a good time......then something bad bad bad bad happens. Nausea followed by increased tearfulness followed by shakiness and then denial

Holy crap. I felt bad all day today 😢

I'm processing all of it

PROVOST

18th December 2015, 03:21 AM

Enjoyed it thoroughly and saw ALL the ANH story copies and then some of the ROTJ story copies BUT

Solo dead at the hands of his son is excellent and Kylo Ren not being a fully fledged Dark Side user with uber strength in the force and weaknesses that Rey and Finn exploited I liked a lot.

Definitely more interesting than the prequels.

Bartrim

18th December 2015, 09:19 AM

Definitely enjoyed it. Woke up the next morning struggling to believe Hans fate. I had a bad feeling about that. Basically everything I thought about the movie has already been said.

I've been having with people, threatening spoilers then telling them that Kylo Ren is Jar Jar Bink's son :D

MayzaPrime

18th December 2015, 09:42 AM

Man!!!! what an adventure... I enjoyed every minute of it.

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

UltimateGalvatron

18th December 2015, 10:12 AM

Man!!!! what an adventure... I enjoyed every minute of it.

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

I am...

Golden Phoenix

18th December 2015, 11:11 AM

My favourite parts were Kylo Ren's tantrums. Fantastic show of anger and frustration.

Interesting he never took it out on anyone else in the First Order, just computer consoles and chairs. Like you know Vadar would have straight up force choked the closest person without hesitating.

Man!!!! what an adventure... I enjoyed every minute of it.

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

If she isn't then she is at least a Han and Leia's kid. She had a connection to Skywalkers old lightsaber, so there is a blood connection there somewhere.

My money is on Luke's kid though, because I think she was left on Jakku before Luke went missing.

Han + Leia = Jania & Jacen (Twins, and Jacen eventually turns Darth), and Anakin
Luke + Mara Jade (Secret emperors assassin who turns good ) = Ben

Hence my dislike

I agree. It also doesn't make sense for Leia and Han to name their kid Ben. If they did it wasn't in honour of Kenobi. They didn't have much to do with him, well Leia didn't anyway. Han a bit, but not enough to name your kid after the guy.

ILikeSoundwave

18th December 2015, 11:15 AM

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

I think this too, which would make her and Kylo Ren cousins.

I was also expecting Luke to use the force to take the lightsaber at the very end of the film.

Meister

18th December 2015, 11:33 AM

Man!!!! what an adventure... I enjoyed every minute of it.

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

I think that would be the easiest and most safest way to go about it, that Rey is the offspring of either Luke or Leia, however, after pondering this aspect over the last day or so and trying to take into account all the pieces that have been given so far, I've found myself developing and favouring an alternate theory

Lord_Zed

18th December 2015, 11:33 AM

I'd be surprised if Rey isn't Luke's daughter, given this is a Star Wars film that draws heavily on the first 3 films family ties are par for the course. That would however open up a more interesting mystery of who her mother is though? Given the lack of women in the first films they'll have to create a new non young character. All I can say is it better not be those Midichlorans again!

Also does anyone know who the old ally that Poe Dameron went to see at the beginning of the film was? Were we supposed to know him? Is he like a Rebellion General or something?

I had a though that if he isn't someone we know then maybe he's a character who's younger version will be introduced in one of the yet unreleased spin off films.

Raider

18th December 2015, 11:38 AM

Add to that an opening scene where the good guys are caught by the bad guys, with the bad dude making his ominous appearance whilst the good guy hides the secret plans in a droid and sends him off to travel through a desert before being captured for interrogation, a canteena scene, a prison break/rescue mission, people after a certain smuggler for not delivering the goods, the young persons witnessing the mentor die at the hands of the bad guy, X wings having to travel through a trench to take out an Oscillator (aka exhaust chute) to destroy the "super mega force death star", with the addition of the new young force user traveling across the galaxy to find the last master Jedi to be trained how to become a jedi...

There is no doubt that there are similarities, specifically done on purpose I would guess. However, I do not think that these similarities, done for nostalgia and as a nod to the original trilogy, take away from the originality of the story line.

Of course, if you want to look at the story in a vacuum and speak in generalities, then yes of course you can make it seem very similar to A New Hope. However, when you start to look at the differences you will see the originality behind it and in particular the different dynamic of the characters. That is the key difference; the characters are very very different in nature other than a comparison between Luke and Rey both being raised in a dessert environment and not knowing their past/force abilities.

However the similarities stop there. Rey is clearly a survivor. She has been on her own for a long time and does what she needs to in order to survive. She had no desire to leave Jakku (even if she always knew there was nothing really holding her there). Her command of the force seems to far exceed what Luke's was from the time they first became aware of their abilities - she is already using mind control. Contrast this with Luke who was always wanting to get off Tatooine and had a loving supporting family that was around. Luke was driven by a need to help others (following Leia's message) where as Rey, whilst having such virtuous qualities, was more of a reluctant hero.

Vadar and Kylo Ren have some similarities but their characters are mostly different. Vadar knew who he was and only questioned his position when faced with the death of his son. Ren on the other hand is deeply conflicted and ultimately took the path Vadar could not, he killed his father! Ren is deeply troubled by the light he feels inside and is clearly insecure and not in command of his powers to the extent Vadar was. Ren's background and upbringing are similar to Vadar (both were Jedi and seduced but isn't this generally how most Sith are arising at the time?).

There was no character like Finn in the original trilogy. Rey is like a mash up of Luke and Han. Even BB's personality was clearly different from that of R2. R2 always seems to know what he needs to do. BB seemed unsure of himself but always wanting to do the right thing.

The overall story line in a nutshell sounds like A New Hope, but once you flesh it out the similarities are nothing more than nods to the original. I'm not going to dissect the story line but I would still say the script is original.

Omega Metro

18th December 2015, 11:54 AM

Still trying to figure out how Poe was missing from the Tie Fighter crash then suddenly he appears in a X-Wing an hour later?
What happened to Captain Phasma, Hux, and Kylo? Did they survive?

Meister

18th December 2015, 11:55 AM

All I can say is it better not be those Midichlorans again!

Cool, so I'm not alone in entertaining that is within the realms of a viable possibility, she certainly does have all the attributes of Anakin (fixer, natural pilot and fighter, with an uncanny ability to effortlessly harness the power of the force). We may be in for another "virgence" in the force here, or rather Anakin Skywalker reincarnate (which also could explain the link to Anakins light sabre) I can't help but shake off a certain dialogue in one of the TV spots "I have lived long enough to see the same eyes in different faces, I see your eyes, I know your eyes!"

Interesting though how some dialogue and scenes in the trailers were absent from the movie

ILikeSoundwave

18th December 2015, 12:06 PM

Still trying to figure out how Poe was missing from the Tie Fighter crash then suddenly he appears in a X-Wing an hour later?
What happened to Captain Phasma, Hux, and Kylo? Did they survive?

I'm pretty sure Hux and Ren survived because Snoke told Hux to fetch him to complete his training before Starkiller base exploded.

As for Phasma she was my favourite of the 3 and it's a shame she got so little screen time so I hope she survived because it'd be such a waste of a good character, but no one can really tell.

Meister

18th December 2015, 12:27 PM

There is no doubt that there are similarities, specifically done on purpose I would guess. However, I do not think that these similarities, done for nostalgia and as a nod to the original trilogy, take away from the originality of the story line.

Of course, if you want to look at the story in a vacuum and speak in generalities, then yes of course you can make it seem very similar to A New Hope. However, when you start to look at the differences you will see the originality behind it and in particular the different dynamic of the characters. That is the key difference; the characters are very very different in nature other than a comparison between Luke and Rey both being raised in a dessert environment and not knowing their past/force abilities.

However the similarities stop there. Rey is clearly a survivor. She has been on her own for a long time and does what she needs to in order to survive. She had no desire to leave Jakku (even if she always knew there was nothing really holding her there). Her command of the force seems to far exceed what Luke's was from the time they first became aware of their abilities - she is already using mind control. Contrast this with Luke who was always wanting to get off Tatooine and had a loving supporting family that was around. Luke was driven by a need to help others (following Leia's message) where as Rey, whilst having such virtuous qualities, was more of a reluctant hero.

Vadar and Kylo Ren have some similarities but their characters are mostly different. Vadar knew who he was and only questioned his position when faced with the death of his son. Ren on the other hand is deeply conflicted and ultimately took the path Vadar could not, he killed his father! Ren is deeply troubled by the light he feels inside and is clearly insecure and not in command of his powers to the extent Vadar was. Ren's background and upbringing are similar to Vadar (both were Jedi and seduced but isn't this generally how most Sith are arising at the time?).

There was no character like Finn in the original trilogy. Rey is like a mash up of Luke and Han. Even BB's personality was clearly different from that of R2. R2 always seems to know what he needs to do. BB seemed unsure of himself but always wanting to do the right thing.

The overall story line in a nutshell sounds like A New Hope, but once you flesh it out the similarities are nothing more than nods to the original. I'm not going to dissect the story line but I would still say the script is original.

I'm not in any disagreement with you on the take on the new characters, all three are fresh and new in my opinion which was one of the main highlights for me, I enjoyed the actors portrayals and the chemistry between them, they were unique (in respect of Star Wars) and I found myself intrigued and connected, I want to know more about them, my comparison relates specifically to the structure of events and settings within the general storyline, I think it is a hard argument to say it is completely original when we can link so many comparative attributes with A New Hope. But again I'm not really bothered about it cause it was very enjoyable, I'm a fan of it, there is little criticism from me (to be honest my only personal criticism is having the starkiller aka super mega force Death Star shoot lasers to blow up planets, I think leaving it at sucking the energy out of suns would have been enough, killing the sun dooms the system and planets in it, which that alone would make it a much greater threat then the original Death Star, and they could of just stated they utilise the energy harvested to power the enormous starkiller, you know sort of like Unicron in a way, I think that would have been enough and kept it a little bit more original in a way).

Ultimately what I was stating wasn't meant to be a criticism, just something that I thought was pretty obvious (which again I don't personally have any issues with it because I thought it was a. Awesome adventure in the end, I'm a fan :))

Starscream77

18th December 2015, 01:19 PM

Saw it, loved it, going tonight to see again

While yes as a general idea a lot was borrowed from the original trilogy but hey who cares as that was the Holy Trilogy and if it aint broke...

Thought the character development was great and also casting. and unlike the prequels the CGI did not take away from any scene

Thank you JJ, bloody good job ! :cool:

Krayt

18th December 2015, 01:36 PM

Meister

18th December 2015, 01:55 PM

To add to the missnamed kid dilemma... Han and Leias EU Youngest, Anakin, was a mechanical genius just like his grandfather....

So maybe it's still Uncle Luke.... Maybe Han never knew he had a daughter... no telling how long he's been AWOL

I think this is the most likely and safest option, this way we don't have to worry about a partner for Luke, it provides an explanation why she would be hidden seeing what eventuated with Kylo and we also keep the saga within the family circle, this time pitting brother against sister. The safest way to go forward In order to keep the story focused on the central characters the way the OT did without too much deviations into other areas

MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!

18th December 2015, 09:23 PM

Did anyone else see it at IMAX? The one at Darling Harbour was horrendous! It was grainy, low-res and overly dark, almost like a TN display viewed from an angle.

As for the movie.... yeah, it was pretty craptacular! Nowhere near as bad as the prequels at least...

I've no problems with them killing off Solo, but with Harrison Ford gone, they need someone with high charisma, because none of the new blood exhibited any! The guy playing Finn has potential though.

And what was up with Leia's mouth? The botox is strong with this one...

Mythirax

18th December 2015, 09:32 PM

I loved it that much, I'm going to go again, but in gold class this time. Wow, so blown away but so much to take in.

UltimateGalvatron

18th December 2015, 09:37 PM

Handsprime

18th December 2015, 09:54 PM

How is it that the Death Star thingy can destroy 5 planets without charge, but when they have to destroy the last planet they need to suck the sun so it can charge?

Mythirax

18th December 2015, 09:55 PM

How is it that the Death Star thingy can destroy 5 planets without charge, but when they have to destroy the last planet they need to suck the sun so it can charge?

It was already charged prior and needed to recharge.

Sol_Bad

18th December 2015, 10:04 PM

Bartrim

18th December 2015, 11:29 PM

too many questions about Rey's parents.

Luke's daughter? I thought Jedi weren't allowed to have relationships?

Han and Leia's daughter? Don't you think they would of said something when they met?

I'm sure there is some connection but I'm not sure...

Maybe she is Dak's daughter since he and Luke were co-pilots on Hoth? :p

VERT

18th December 2015, 11:33 PM

too many questions about Rey's parents.

Luke's daughter? I thought Jedi weren't allowed to have relationships?

Thats old school Jedi. Luke is something new. And the last, he could do what he felt was right.

Rey has to be a Skywalker. Cause the Episodes are about Skywalkers. Kylo Ben counts too though. But All the visions Rey had, The Skywalker Saber and How powerful Ray is with no training.
AND
R2-D2 goes into Low Power as soon as Luke leaves. He wakes up as soon as Rey Arrives at the base. Cause its like he knows Skywalker DNA or something.

The fun of a new story and now we get to guess and speculate until May 2017 :)

Meister

18th December 2015, 11:53 PM

The fun of a new story and now we get to guess and speculate until May 2017 :)

So to me these seem to be the main questions we are left with:

- Who is Rey?
- Who is Snoke?
- Why did Luke go into hiding?
- What happened to Kylo Ren to turn?

Anything else?, what are peoples thoughts?

GoktimusPrime

19th December 2015, 12:43 AM

I personally hope that Rey is unrelated to Han, Luke or any other character from the OT. I'd really like her to just be an original character who happens to be highly Force sensitive. Kylo Ren is already related to Han, Leia and Luke, and I think that's enough.

I was also a bit confused by the Ben Solo name. Han didn't have any close affinity with Kenobi, and Leia knew him by his real name ("Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope."). Unless they allowed Uncle Luke to name the boy, as he was given to him as an apprentice. <shrugs> :confused: Or maybe they just like the name Ben. ;)

Still trying to figure out how Poe was missing from the Tie Fighter crash then suddenly he appears in a X-Wing an hour later?
What happened to Captain Phasma, Hux, and Kylo? Did they survive?
Phasma's survive is unlikely, though not impossible. Hux was ordered by Snoke to take the wounded Kylo Ren and evacuate the planet before its destruction, so they probably survived.

So to me these seem to be the main questions we are left with:

- Who is Rey?
- Who is Snoke?
- Why did Luke go into hiding?
- What happened to Kylo Ren to turn?

Anything else?, what are peoples thoughts?
Who is Rey?
A drop of golden sun. ;) I honestly don't know, but as mentioned before, I hope that she's an entirely new character and not the daughter of an already known character from the previous films. The Jedi Order is hardly going to survive if all of the Jedi are from the same family! :eek:

Who is Snoke?
See below (re: How Kylo Ren turned evil). Am I the only one who thinks that Snoke sounds too cute a name for a Sith Lord? It sounds like a character from Pokey and Friends. :p Mind you, Dooku was a pretty stupid name too. :p I wonder if his hologram is 1:1 scale or just enlarged as Palpatine's was in The Empire Strikes Back (http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/6/6d/Threatofskywalker.png/revision/latest?cb=20130320044145).

Why did Luke go into hiding?
Because Kylo Ren betrayed him and destroyed the New Jedi Order (i.e. everything that Luke had worked to build). Luke then ran off the find the lost First Jedi Temple.

What happened to Kylo Ren to turn?
He was seduced to the Dark Side by Snoke, who is really this guy (http://cdn0.dailydot.com/cache/bf/cb/bfcb8efcdf7868fc7424990259572849.jpg).

Handsprime

19th December 2015, 12:56 AM

What happened to Kylo Ren to turn?
He was seduced to the Dark Side by Snoke, who is really this guy (http://cdn0.dailydot.com/cache/bf/cb/bfcb8efcdf7868fc7424990259572849.jpg).

That would be the biggest twist in the book

MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!

19th December 2015, 01:59 AM

So did you like it or not? I'm kinda getting mixed messages...

Well, I didn't hate it, but I didn't think it was that good. My buddy and I spent most of the time groaning through the majority of scenes.

Sure there were some good bits, but overall, it was disappointing.

jazzcomp

19th December 2015, 09:38 AM

Enjoyed it. Good thing I've avoided these thread before watching it last night.
Like everyone said, Rey has to be a skywalker as Luke's lightsaber responded to her.

UltimateGalvatron

19th December 2015, 09:43 AM

Movie sucks. No:
Mediclorians
Jar Jar
Pod Races

Total disappointment.

In case you can't tell I'm being sarcastic.

Lord_Zed

19th December 2015, 10:02 AM

I'm not in any disagreement with you on the take on the new characters, all three are fresh and new in my opinion which was one of the main highlights for me, I enjoyed the actors portrayals and the chemistry between them, they were unique (in respect of Star Wars) and I found myself intrigued and connected, I want to know more about them, my comparison relates specifically to the structure of events and settings within the general storyline, I think it is a hard argument to say it is completely original when we can link so many comparative attributes with A New Hope. But again I'm not really bothered about it cause it was very enjoyable, I'm a fan of it, there is little criticism from me (to be honest my only personal criticism is having the starkiller aka super mega force Death Star shoot lasers to blow up planets, I think leaving it at sucking the energy out of suns would have been enough, killing the sun dooms the system and planets in it, which that alone would make it a much greater threat then the original Death Star, and they could of just stated they utilise the energy harvested to power the enormous starkiller, you know sort of like Unicron in a way, I think that would have been enough and kept it a little bit more original in a way).

Ultimately what I was stating wasn't meant to be a criticism, just something that I thought was pretty obvious (which again I don't personally have any issues with it because I thought it was a. Awesome adventure in the end, I'm a fan :))

I completely agree with you, and also I never understand why it sometimes seems liking something and criticising it are mutually exclusive. The characters were good, great in fact for Star Wars, but the story was not an original framework and there were so many nods to a New Hope it became derivative in the end.

I also think that Star Killer base was one of the weakest plot elements, it follows the ABC's of Hollywood movie threats, just do the same thing but make it bigger with more lasers. it's just like the antagonist star ship in Star Trek into Darkness. Star Killer base is also not sold as being that big a threat even if it more powerful than the Death Star. Throughout a New Hope we are told the Death Star is the ultimate force in the galaxy, and then when Alderan is destroyed we get Leia's emotional response, and sense of loss (even if brief). When Star Killer base wipes out a whole system there is a fancy CGI explodey scene and then nothing, no one seems to bat an eyelid that an entire system was destroyed, there's no millions of voices cried out moment, no one seemed to care, and the story moves on so fast that the viewer doesn't care either, I'm not even sure what planet(s) they destroyed.

Consequently I found Star Killer base to be nothing but a plot device to allow a set piece X-wing battle that mirrors the original film, and unlike the original I was not invested in this battle at all, we all knew exactly what was going to happen there, and the human drama on the ground was so much more exciting. Mind you saying that about a Star Wars film is a very good thing, and as I said I really enjoyed the film. But I do think you could take Star Killer base wholly out of the film and it works the same, it might even work better.

Raider

19th December 2015, 10:06 AM

UltimateGalvatron

19th December 2015, 10:22 AM

Also no Hayden Christianson...

Omega Metro

19th December 2015, 10:34 AM

I'm watching it again in 3 hours time. I have all these questions racing around in my head and I'm going insane:D

GoktimusPrime

19th December 2015, 10:36 AM

Kylo Ren's identity was spoiled for me by some random jerk who just walked up to me at blurted it out. No warning or anything. :mad: :(

Verno

19th December 2015, 10:41 AM

Well, I seem to be in the vast minority of people who thought that was a load of rubbish.

If I wanted to watch A New Hope, I'd watch A New Hope.

Luke had Force potential but he never discovered it on his own. Obi-Wan brought it out in him through tutelage, albeit brief. Rey is suddenly using force pulls, mind tricks and going toe-to-toe with a Sith with no guidance whatsoever!

Leia should be the hardest, tough-as-nails bitch in the entire universe. She's had a horrible life and has had to struggle through. She lost her mother in child birth. She lost her father to the Darkside. Her adopted home world was blown up. Her son turned to the Darkside. Luke chucked a hissy fit and ran off. And Han left to go back to being a smuggler. She's had nothing but pain in her life. She should be rough as guts and a no-nonsense leader. Instead, she was a wimp.

Luke went off to find the first Jedi temple? Did a 10-yearold fan-fic writer come up with that?

Every line Han had was said with a wink to the audience. The older fans are watching, you don't need to pander to them with all the overt references.

And the dialogue in general was just plain awful.

Kylo has a tanty but just takes stuff out with his lightsabre? I thought when Siths got mad, power poured out of them and stuff all around them got crushed? That would have been far more intimidating. In that second tanty, the Stormtroopers were just thinking "Oh, there he goes again. Oh well..." They should have been terrified!

Mr. Black Stormtrooper doesn't like death and losing his friends, so he decides to join the Resistance, and suddenly killing people is just fine!

The only redeeming feature was the chemistry between the two leads, but that doesn't make up for the 2+ hours of disappointment.

UltimateGalvatron

19th December 2015, 10:55 AM

Kylo Ren's identity was spoiled for me by some random jerk who just walked up to me at blurted it out. No warning or anything. :mad: :(

I assumed his body is now being buried with a broken neck as you Force choked him to death? Or he was impaled on your lightsaber?

Lord_Zed

19th December 2015, 11:32 AM

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions on the film but please don't tell me you were groaning aloud in the theatre? I just don't think that is fair to the majority of fans who clearly enjoyed it.

On another note, I wasn't taking Meister's comments as criticism, I was just giving my thoughts on why I don't agree and explaining my original comments more thoroughly.

No worries, I was just responding to Meister's thoughts as it synched with my own a bit, apologies if it came across as a gang up. Also like him I completely agree with you about the characters, particularly Kylo Ren. I love the way he is a somewhat immature wannabee Sith living in the shadow of his parents and grand father, that was awesome and original it's the complete opposite of introducing a new villain who would just be a more powerful version of what we've already seen that came out of nowhere (which is what I though Star Killer was). Kylo Ren could still become a villain to rival Vader and if he does he will have earned it. In fact that was another good thing about the new characters there's a lot of potential growth in all of them.

I'm going to go see it again on Tuesday, so I'm definitely in the camp that enjoyed it, but I do like to dissect films good or bad, and the more passionate the film makes me the better, and this ones high on the passionmetre for all the right reasons.

Also no Hayden Christianson...

So far.....:D

UltimateGalvatron

19th December 2015, 11:55 AM

After TFA, there are now no characters that have appeared in every movie (Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader were the only ones I believe) unless you count Vader's helmet...

Omega Metro

19th December 2015, 12:05 PM

After TFA, there are now no characters that have appeared in every movie (Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader were the only ones I believe) unless you count Vader's helmet...

C3-PO and R2D2?

UltimateGalvatron

19th December 2015, 12:28 PM

C3-PO and R2D2?

True! But I was more counting human/main characters.

Lord_Zed

19th December 2015, 01:02 PM

Disregarding the poor droids as little more than sentient appliances then?:p

I've often wondered how no one in the Star Wars universe seems at all bothered with treating droids as slaves despite their seeming sentience.

Also why do they have so many droids but they seem to have no ship based AI? An AI back up system would really have helped the Executor after that A-wing took out the bridge.

Plus now I'm going of track, but the whole quest in both episodes 4 and (now) 7 would be unnecessary if the Star Wars universe had email. I guess it's like the Eagles in the LOTR problem solved. :D

GoktimusPrime

19th December 2015, 01:40 PM

I assumed his body is now being buried with a broken neck as you Force choked him to death? Or he was impaled on your lightsaber?
Alas it was at the EB Games Expo where I was manning Hasbro's booth (not to mention that my daughter was there), so I had to be on my best behaviour. I did tell him that I didn't want to hear spoilers, and that dropping spoilers without warning wasn't cool. But of course, the "damage" was already done. :(

True! But I was more counting human/main characters.
But that's the point. Star Wars deliberately features those two droids as the only characters to appear in all the films. One of the main influences for Star Wars was Kurosawa Akira (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Kurosawa), a Japanese director famous for making samurai films. The Hidden Fortress (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hidden_Fortress) inspired the story for A New Hope (the Death Stars and Starkiller Base are all hidden fortresses). Something that Kurosawa sometimes did was to tell the story not from the POV from a higher class nobility like a samurai etc., but from a lower class commoner such as a court jester, farmers, peasants etc. The lowest station that someone can have in the Star Wars universe is to be a droid, because they are basically a slave class. Episode VII tells much of the story through the eyes of the new droid, Beebee-Eight, but of course we do also see See Threepio and Artoo Detoo.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/starwars_droids_zpsbuq2vjro.jpg
So yeah, the consistency of the droids is very much intentional, as a story-telling motif that inspired by Kurosawa. The story in the Clone Wars episode Bounty Hunters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bounty_Hunters_(episode)) was a retelling of Kurosawa's Seven Samurai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Samurai), and the episode was made in his memory (as stated in the ending credits). Also, George Lucas initially wanted Mifune Toshiro (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toshiro_Mifune) to play Obi-Wan Kenobi, but Mifune declined, thus the role was given to Sir Alec Guinness. Other references to Kurosawa's samurai epics in Star Wars includes:
* The Force = a type of energy that flows through living things, inspired by the Japanese martial arts concept of "Ki(ai)" (though obviously greatly fantasised)
* Force Users are essentially space samurai. Just as romanticised image of the samurai is one of favouring swords over guns, Jedi and Sith prefer using light sabres over blasters, which both sides consider to be clumsy and uncivilised weapons.
* Some costumes are based on the Japanese Gi, notable Luke's farmboy clothes, Owen Lars' costume, as well as the standard apparel of the Jedi and Sith.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/starwars_samurai_zpsnx2fjbgw.jpg
* Lexicon. The word "Jedi" is derived from the Japanese word Jidai (時代), which means 'period,' such as a historical period or period drama. Samurai stories are called "Jidai-geki" (時代劇), which means "period play." The word "Obi" (帯) is the Japanese word for 'belt, and "ken" (剣) means 'sword'. "Wan" (腕) can mean 'arm' (Tetsuwan Convoy = "Iron Arm Prime" ;)). The word "Sith," when rendered in Japanese phonology, sounds like the word for death (死す), thus a "Sith Lord," can be seen as a "death lord." On the Death Star. ;)
* The use of screen wipes, a signature technique from Kurosawa.

Star Wars does have a multitude of other influences as well, including Westerns and other science fiction. I'm not saying that Kurosawa's samurai epics were Lucas' sole inspiration for Star Wars, but they were among them, and to the point, this is why the droids are a recurring motif in the movies. :)

Bumblebee2000

19th December 2015, 01:42 PM

As it has been a few days I'm a bit iffy on how ANH the ending was, I suppose you could say it about the whole film, but it is the stuff at the end with the Starkiller Base that bug me.
But despite that, it was a GOOD Star Wars film which has given me a feeling I haven't felt in a while.
I enjoy other films, but Toy Story 3 was the last thing to of left this mark on me. Being into both franchises since I was 4 helps, but the only problem detrimental enough to affect a lifetime of nostalgia is that Luke, Leia, Han and Chewie (bonus points for C3PO and R2) will never be in a film together in the new trilogy. I do sort of wish they'd either this be the 8th, or have them on the screen once before the end. I can put up with Han being dead since I know it is what Ford wanted, but I wanted him to die in a film where he had actually been with the gang before the end.
Also I don't want a third Lego Falcon and they aren't likely to stick him in many (any?) other sets.

GoktimusPrime

19th December 2015, 03:14 PM

Overall, I do think that this was a good film, on par with A New Hope which did have a fairly basic and straightforward narrative. It may not be excellent, but I don't think it's bad either. I would rate it as good. The characters in this film seem more fleshed out than in the Prequels. Also bear in mind that, unlike the Prequels and more like the Original Trilogy, there isn't going to be just one person directing all the movies. Because here's what it looks like so far...
Prequel Trilogy
Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, directed by George Lucas
Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, directed by George Lucas
Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, directed by George Lucas
Original Trilogy
Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope, directed by George Lucas
Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back, directed by Irvin Kershner
Star Wars Episode VI: The Return of the Jedi, directed by Richard Marquand
Sequel Trilogy
Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens, directed by Jeffrey Abrams
Star Wars Episode VIII, directed by Rian Johnson
Star Wars Episode IX, directed by Colin Trevorrow
The Prequel Trilogy was the only one that suffered from a "directorial dictatorship" (just as Transformers does :rolleyes:). So regardless of what you thought of this film, Abrams won't be directing any more.

I really quite like the character of Finn, as it gives us a special glimpse into the life of an Imperial Stormtrooper, something which none of the films had ever done before. Some people have criticised Finn for being okay with killing for the Resistance when he refused to kill for the First Order, but I think that they're entirely different contexts. The First Order wanted him to execute captured civilians. It was an act of cold blooded murder. Fighting against the First Order, Finn was killing armed enemy combatants in battle. Combatants who were either attacking him, his allies or civilians. It wasn't done with the malice intent that comes with executing helpless captives.

I also really liked how it shone a light on what it meant to be a Stormtrooper. Abducted and brainwashed since infancy, and re-brainwashed if there's any sign of non-compliance. They are only given call signs, no actual names. It's reminiscent to how the Clone Army started (in the EU it was actually Anakin Skywalker who decided that the Clones deserved to have individual names like Cody, Rex, Oddball, Gree, Bly etc.), and also consistent with what we saw in the Original Trilogy (e.g. "TK-421, why aren't you at your post?"). Through Finn, the Imperial Stormtroopers have become humanised for the audience. Although the other Stormies remain loyal to the First Order, we do at least understand why; they have been mentally enslaved and have virtually no choice but the serve. It also makes them more realistic, because it's also reminiscent of how many terrorist armies mentally enslave their combatants from a young age (e.g. ISIL/Daesh, the Lord's Resistance Army etc.). The idea of using children as combatants has happened frequently throughout history, typically as low ranking and expendable foot soldiers (while adults hold higher ranks), and the Stormtroopers are very much the expendable pawns of the Empire and First Order. This is why foot soldiers are also called infantry. We know that Palpatine had been influencing Anakin since he was a boy, and who knows how long Leader Snoke has been in Ben Solo's life for.

As for Kylo Ren's fits of rage, I think that this is typical of a Sith. Kylo destroys property when he gets angry, Vader killed his own men! Obviously killing people is worse than destroying property, but this could be due to Ren still being far more conflicted than Vader. Snoke may have thought that partaking in the murder of innocents might have turned Ren further to the Dark Side, since it apparently worked with Anakin Skywalker. But it didn't; Ren was still conflicted and could still feel the Light Side calling to him. So Ren had to take it up a notch and deliberately kill his own father in cold blood to bring about his final conversion to the Dark Side. This harks back to when Palpatine told Vader that he had killed Padm� in his rage; true or not, Vader believed it and it strengthened his conviction to the Dark Side. But Leia believes that there still is good in Ren, just as Luke believed that Vader hadn't fully fallen the Dark Side too. And he was right. :) I hope that Leia's intuition proves true too and Ren becomes Ben again, returning to the Light Side. I just hope that Ben doesn't have to die in the process as Anakin did, cos... that's already done. :rolleyes:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a Skywalker Family Tree that I've made, only referencing characters who appeared in the films. So I'm ignoring Expanded Universe or deleted scenes from the films, just what was in the final cut of the movies.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/starwars_familytree_zpsxq7doesk.jpg

Megatran

19th December 2015, 04:05 PM

Snooki is a Sith Lord. :rolleyes:

i_amtrunks

19th December 2015, 06:52 PM

Must say that I thoroughly enjoyed it. So much fan service and rehashing of plot and character elements, but better than all the reboots and remakes going around in other franchises.

I knew Han was going to bite the dust as soon as Kylo Ben said his name. I'm glad Chewie didn't kick the bucket as well. The whole scene on the bridge, I was just waiting for him to turn his lightsabre on and I was not disappointed.

I was impressed by the practical and CG effects, it felt like a Star Wars film because of them. BBdroid is a masterpiece, the way he checked those stairs under the smugglers den cracked me up. So much personality from a simple shape. Much more fun than R2D2 who is an arrogant garbage can! :p

So many questions left unanswered and I am sure that the books, comics, series and shows will help fill in the gap between 6 and 7. So much only briefly mentioned about Luke and the new Jedi order, Snoke and more.
Is Snoke a Sith, or just a wielder of the dark side of the force? He was never referred to as Darth, neither was Kylo Ben. The rule of 2 makes it unlikely that he is a true Sith.
Seeing Kylo Ben back as a cyborg next episode should be good, more Vadar like, which is what he wants. If he throws Gollum.. I mean Snoke into a pit at the end of episode 9 to save Rey or a Skywalker then I'll be a little dismayed.

I also wonder why Leia never trained since. She was meant to carry on the he Jedi way if Luke lost to Vadar in RotJ. Surely if she has half e natural skill and ability of Luke she should have some training.

As for the actors I cannot praise Daisy Ridley enough. She was perfect. The true hero of The film and the strongest female action hero is donkey's years. Can't wait to see all the girls in her costume instead of frozen (whose female characters were also strong). She really sold me into the movie (along with John Boyega's Finn). They were both fantastic to watch and had a true chemistry not seen in any of the previous six films. On the flip side, I kind of wish they had kept Solo Alice and killed off Leia, only because Carrie Fisher still cannot act and seemed bored and unsure of what she was doing whenever she was on screen. The less we see of her in the next two films the better.

So no dead bad guys (Phasma better be alive, she was as useful as Boba Fett!) and some training for Rey should make a more lightsabre-y episode 8.

Let's hope the series, comics, books and shows in the interim don't ruin or devalue any of the events and characters from this highly enjoyable blockbuster by forcing family ties or midichlorians or any other Lucas style retcons...

Golden Phoenix

19th December 2015, 08:36 PM

Is Snoke a Sith, or just a wielder of the dark side of the force? He was never referred to as Darth, neither was Kylo Ben. The rule of 2 makes it unlikely that he is a true Sith.

Snoke could have been a secret apprentice, trained by Vader or Palpatine to removed the other.

Palpatine had seen Vader as a failure, disappointed that he had been reduced to a cyborg on life-support. He had such potential, and now Vader was limited by his . He was plotting to replace him as soon as he found out about Luke. Before he found out about Luke it would seem logical he had an eye out for someone else. Snoke could have been who he was training up.

That being said, Palpatine also had other force wielding operatives (like the Inquisitors seen in Rebels). Snoke could have been one of them that just made a grab for power in the power vacuum that would have followed Palpatine's death. He may have just declared himself Sith.

Jetfire in the sky

19th December 2015, 08:42 PM

My favourite parts were Kylo Ren's tantrums. Fantastic show of anger and frustration.

+1 on this
It very much reminded me of The Lego Movie's Bad cop throwing chairs around in a most hilarious way. :D

The Stormtroopers walking around the corner deciding to not venture towards him was lovely comedy.

CBratron

19th December 2015, 09:13 PM

Definitely a.swift dose of nostalgia. Felt a lot like a lot of old elements deconstructed and reconstructed in a different configuration.

And I just wanted him to say that word: magnitude. You know who I mean.

GoktimusPrime

19th December 2015, 10:01 PM

So many questions left unanswered
This article explains how this is one of the strengths of Force Awakens: What The Force Awakens Gets Right That the Prequels Got Wrong (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/18/star-wars-force-awakens-prequels).

One key point that I agree with is the shift back towards a character-driven story.
"In Red Letter Media�s instant-classic, feature-length takedown of The Phantom Menace (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxKtZmQgxrI&list=PL9A12F8F947849C30), three people are given a seemingly easy task: describe a character from the films without mentioning what they look like, what kind of costume they wear, or their profession. All three easily navigate Han Solo: He�s a rogue, a smoothtalker, a criminal with a good heart.

But what about Qui-Gon Jin? Not so easy.

Putting the Force Awakens characters through the same test yields much better results. Rey is lonely, smart, and tough. She�s afraid of further abandonment. Finn is a man without an identity, and he�s scared but with a strong moral compass. Kylo Ren is lost, conflicted, angry. Hell, I can tell you that BB-8 is loyal. These are characters who yearn. They�re driven. They want things. Those seem like such simple concepts, but when a character doesn�t have a clear motivation, you�ll never get the cheer-in-your-seat moments we see in The Force Awakens, like that lightsaber moment."

Lord_Zed

19th December 2015, 10:27 PM

As for the actors I cannot praise Daisy Ridley enough. She was perfect. The true hero of The film and the strongest female action hero is donkey's years. Can't wait to see all the girls in her costume instead of frozen (whose female characters were also strong). She really sold me into the movie (along with John Boyega's Finn). They were both fantastic to watch and had a true chemistry not seen in any of the previous six films.

I agree absolutely that Daisy Ridley was the heart of the film, and I love the way she went a step father than Leia and rescued herself pretty much. I wouldn't quite go as far as to say the strongest in years, cause we also got an equally strong Furiosa this year who stole Mad Max's film from under him so that's two really strong female action heroes in one year, add to that if you will tv's Jessica Jones (in the super hero genre) and 2015 has 3 strong new female characters debuting in traditionally male dominated genre's that's more than we've seen in a long time alright.

JJ, you have redeemed yourself for the somewhat questionable portrayal of women in Star Trek into Darkness.

Star wars is saved!!!!! :)

Now someone make me a good Star Trek film that actually feels like Star Trek. :D

Omega Metro

19th December 2015, 10:28 PM

I'm hoping to see more of General Hux in the next movie. As well as Phasma (she is in the the next movie according to Wikipedia so has not died). Hux seems to have a lot of hatred in him....which I like.:)

Meister

19th December 2015, 11:01 PM

...also I never understand why it sometimes seems liking something and criticising it are mutually exclusive.

Exactly, I am a fan of cinema, I enjoy watching movies, all kinds of movies, I've been doing it for a while now, and if I wanted to, I'm pretty sure I could rip any movie to shreds, including my favorites, but thats not my primary intention, its not the reason why I like watching movies, to be honest originality in storyline has been a rare thing for a very long time in my opinion, so I think expecting that in everything that is churned out is a bit masochistic in a way, because the majority of the time you will be disappointed (if not always), so what I have come to enjoy most, and appreciate most, is the story telling, the way the story is told, the way visuals are used, the way sound is used, the way a director, actors, etc can put across emotion and make you personally invested and emotionally experience their art within the context that its meant to be taken. So yeah when I make comments about movies, its not intended to take the good things away from it which I like, there is good and bad in everything, and in the end individual opinion is subjective, thats why I treat these conversations as discussion (chit chat), not debate (arguing right and wrong). I've been waiting 30 years for this movie, I'm excited about it, I want to talk about it in an open/honest/fun way and I want to hear other peoples thoughts who share a similar connection to the film/franchise as well, that's all, I respect all views irrespective if I personally agree with them or not :)

I also think that Star Killer base was one of the weakest plot elements, it follows the ABC's of Hollywood movie threats, just do the same thing but make it bigger with more lasers. it's just like the antagonist star ship in Star Trek into Darkness. Star Killer base is also not sold as being that big a threat even if it more powerful than the Death Star. Throughout a New Hope we are told the Death Star is the ultimate force in the galaxy, and then when Alderan is destroyed we get Leia's emotional response, and sense of loss (even if brief). When Star Killer base wipes out a whole system there is a fancy CGI explodey scene and then nothing, no one seems to bat an eyelid that an entire system was destroyed, there's no millions of voices cried out moment, no one seemed to care, and the story moves on so fast that the viewer doesn't care either, I'm not even sure what planet(s) they destroyed.

Consequently I found Star Killer base to be nothing but a plot device to allow a set piece X-wing battle that mirrors the original film, and unlike the original I was not invested in this battle at all, we all knew exactly what was going to happen there, and the human drama on the ground was so much more exciting. Mind you saying that about a Star Wars film is a very good thing, and as I said I really enjoyed the film. But I do think you could take Star Killer base wholly out of the film and it works the same, it might even work better.

Can't say I have much to disagree with there. Its hard to feel any kind of connection when you don't even know who the hell got blown up, or why. Off the top of my head (and I ain't no script writer) I could think of two alternate avenues they could have pursued then going with another exact copy of a Death Star (but way bigger). The first would be like I mentioned before, just have it destroy the sun (a bigger threat than the original death star cause it essentially makes the inhabitants of entire system refugees), the resistance finds out they turned it on which puts into jeopardy 4 planets faithful to the republic (and countless others in that system), they have to race to stop the machine before it completely kills the sun, perhaps destroying it to reverse the process (sure its still similar to the death star but not exactly the same and also can be viewed as a natural progression from just blowing up individual planets with a giant laser). The other would be forgetting the starkiller base all together and go with something along the lines of the first order, being the fascists that they are, have been taking the children of all the planets they conquer to turn them into storm troopers for their army. With Finn siding with the resistance, he tells them where the main base is where they take all the children to for mind wiping and training (which is where Kylo has taken Rey) and the resistance make a plan to attack the base to rescue the stolen children and blow it up. Again nothing spectacular and hardly anything original by any means but could have facilitated the purpose of the final act without going over the exact same ground again within the Star wars theatrical story line, but death star 3 was the safest option, and in the end it served its purpose, like you said, the conflict on the ground is what stole the show, and in saying that, the light saber fight between Kylo, Finn and Rey was pretty awesome, I loved it :)

drifand

19th December 2015, 11:13 PM

Meister

19th December 2015, 11:16 PM

As for the actors I cannot praise Daisy Ridley enough. She was perfect. The true hero of The film and the strongest female action hero is donkey's years. Can't wait to see all the girls in her costume instead of frozen (whose female characters were also strong). She really sold me into the movie (along with John Boyega's Finn). They were both fantastic to watch and had a true chemistry not seen in any of the previous six films. On the flip side, I kind of wish they had kept Solo Alice and killed off Leia, only because Carrie Fisher still cannot act and seemed bored and unsure of what she was doing whenever she was on screen. The less we see of her in the next two films the better.

Yep I agree with this too (in respect of Daisy Ridley), she stole the show, she made her character a thousand times more relatable and convincing then Hayden ever did, a great performance in deed.

Also as much as I loved watching Harrison Ford in this and wished he was in the next two, I don't think killing off anyone else would of gotten anywhere near the same impact as losing Han Solo, especially at the hands of his own son!, it was the obvious decision (not to mention the most commonly predicted)

Meister

19th December 2015, 11:59 PM

As for Kylo Ren's fits of rage, I think that this is typical of a Sith. Kylo destroys property when he gets angry, Vader killed his own men! Obviously killing people is worse than destroying property, but this could be due to Ren still being far more conflicted than Vader. Snoke may have thought that partaking in the murder of innocents might have turned Ren further to the Dark Side, since it apparently worked with Anakin Skywalker. But it didn't; Ren was still conflicted and could still feel the Light Side calling to him. So Ren had to take it up a notch and deliberately kill his own father in cold blood to bring about his final conversion to the Dark Side. This harks back to when Palpatine told Vader that he had killed Padm� in his rage; true or not, Vader believed it and it strengthened his conviction to the Dark Side. But Leia believes that there still is good in Ren, just as Luke believed that Vader hadn't fully fallen the Dark Side too. And he was right. :) I hope that Leia's intuition proves true too and Ren becomes Ben again, returning to the Light Side. I just hope that Ben doesn't have to die in the process as Anakin did, cos... that's already done. :rolleyes:

I reckon Kylo Ren is the most interesting of the new characters, much like everyone else, I really like the direction they went with him (loved the tantrum scenes). He sort of reminds me of Commodus (the character Joaquin Phoenix played in Gladiator), a mentally weak/emotionally unstable villain. That personality stemmed from feelings of paternal rejection and abandonment, and I think they may be going a similar route with Ren. To be honest I didn't get the impression that he was a Sith, nor even a Jedi (light or dark), obviously he has a strong connection with the force, however he seemed like more of an amateur in the arts of combat etc. In this respect, I find myself speculating that Kylo was being prepared or expected to be Luke's successor since a child (giving him big shoes to fill), however before all his training could be completed (perhaps only half way), Luke's attention went elsewhere or he stopped training due to other more important issues which either demoted Kylo from that position or left him without a purpose, without direction. In steps Snoke (assuming he is a Sith) who offers him direction again (for his own sinister intentions) and we see him trying to fulfill his destiny, becoming what he was always promised or brought up to be, although in a corrupted sense.

As for his real name, I agree that it would make more logical sense for Luke to name any son he had Ben, so I totally understand why people would be irked by that decision. However, in terms of connection, if we want to get really sentimental here, it could be said that if it wasn't for Obi-wan, Han and Leia would have never met:p

philby

20th December 2015, 12:22 AM

hmm i dunno how it works now exactly but imo using the dark side ofvthe force does not automatically = being a sith. i can't remember now where i read it but im sure it was mentioned specifically that kylo is not affiliated with any sith but instead the knights of ren which while focussing on the dark side are something different. some people have complained that it was too easy for kylo to be defeated since he is a sith lord trained all his life but i disagree. also, to me it seemed like there was a possibility from the way leia talked about him that maybe he hasnt even been trained by luke for that long so he might not be as powerful as some have assumed.

i loved rey but it did seem like she was perhaps almost too strong in the force for her level. we know she can fight and she's heard myths and stories of luke and the jedi so maybe she heard about the mind tricks and pulling objects, or maybe it was her instincts and the force is just that strong with her? when she tells kylo he is afraid of not living up to vader i really liked that scene. it made me think of that issue of MTMTE where Chromedome interrogates Overlord but he turned it around on him :D

i loved the effects but i wish they were able to use models for the ship battles, theres just something about them that sticks out as being cg to me. similarly with snoke, i dont think he looked that good even as being a hologram.

GoktimusPrime

20th December 2015, 12:29 AM

Maybe "Ben" is just a common name for humans in the Star Wars universe, and any relationship to Obi-Wan's alias is coincidental. We have many common given names on Earth -- statistically the most common being Mohammed. Why can't the same hold true for the Star Wars universe? Maybe Ben means something different in Huttese and Corellian or Alderaanian, but just coincidentally sounds the same (just as 'Ken' can be an Anglophone or Japanese name).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Interesting to see how the First Order seems to maintain a more 'racist' policy, as all of them are human (just as with the Empire), whereas the Resistance, like the Rebellion, are a diverse mix of humans and non-humans. I wonder where this policy came from in the Empire, and it may not have even come from the Emperor. Palpatine himself didn't seem to discriminate against non-humans, as he surrounded himself with non-human aides (e.g. Mas Amedda etc.) when he was Supreme Chancellor. And of course, Darth Plagueis and Darth Maul were also non-humans. One theory I've heard is that while Palpy himself doesn't discriminate against non-humans, someone else with power in the Empire did, and passed a law that only allowed humans to serve the Empire. Palpatine may have approved, since he's not one to discourage hate and anger.

Also cool to see a greater range of diversity (both in terms of ethnicity and gender) among humans in both the First Order and the Resistance. :)

Meister

20th December 2015, 12:55 AM

Snoke could have been a secret apprentice, trained by Vader or Palpatine to removed the other.

Palpatine had seen Vader as a failure, disappointed that he had been reduced to a cyborg on life-support. He had such potential, and now Vader was limited by his . He was plotting to replace him as soon as he found out about Luke. Before he found out about Luke it would seem logical he had an eye out for someone else. Snoke could have been who he was training up.

That being said, Palpatine also had other force wielding operatives (like the Inquisitors seen in Rebels). Snoke could have been one of them that just made a grab for power in the power vacuum that would have followed Palpatine's death. He may have just declared himself Sith.

Snoke seems to be the big unknown factor here, who he is and where he came from is all a mystery for now. He could have been another Jedi, or perhaps one of Luke's own apprentices who turned, or perhaps not even a force user to begin with (although admittedly that would seem odd since he mentions he has to finish Kylo's training).

It has been suggested by some that he may be Darth Plaguies (Palpatines master, the one he talks about in Revenge of the Sith, the one who could stop people from dying and influence the Midichlorians to create life). I believe Palpatine was supposed to have killed him in his sleep, however people speculate that he may have survived or resurrected himself. I doubt they would go this way, but if they did, it does provide an opportunity to link the whole saga together and provide a more ominous villain then Palpatine (if you thought the emperor was bad and powerful, wait until you see his master lol). Hell if they want they could even go and say that Darth Plaguies was also Master Sifo Dyas, the dude who commissioned the clone army and mysteriously died 10 years before the clone wars (perhaps thats when Palpatine put the knife to him), and possibly even further by saying that he was the one who created Anakin (influencing those Midichlorians) who as a result was always destined to replace Palpatine as his apprentice, which is the reason Palpatine put the knife to him to take Anakin for himself before Plaguies did him over. This would make the entire Star Wars story/saga the resulting product of one ominous figure's conception, a true puppet master who has now finally stepped out of the shadows and made himself known and consequently must be stopped by the only person who can, the son of his own creation, Luke Skywalker...:eek:

Apologies to all if I have accidentally shat all over the EU with that terrible brain fart of mine above, I've only followed the theatrical films so I'm only working with what I've been given, I would however be interested if anyone could provide some background on Plaguies or Sifo Dyas, I only recently found out that Plaguies was Palpatines master (never really said that in ROTS) and I have no idea who Sifo Dyas was supposed to be and I've always been intrigued why he went and commissioned the clone army.

Golden Phoenix

20th December 2015, 03:13 AM

Snoke seems to be the big unknown factor here, who he is and where he came from is all a mystery for now. He could have been another Jedi, or perhaps one of Luke's own apprentices who turned, or perhaps not even a force user to begin with (although admittedly that would seem odd since he mentions he has to finish Kylo's training).

It has been suggested by some that he may be Darth Plaguies (Palpatines master, the one he talks about in Revenge of the Sith, the one who could stop people from dying and influence the Midichlorians to create life). I believe Palpatine was supposed to have killed him in his sleep, however people speculate that he may have survived or resurrected himself. I doubt they would go this way, but if they did, it does provide an opportunity to link the whole saga together and provide a more ominous villain then Palpatine (if you thought the emperor was bad and powerful, wait until you see his master lol). Hell if they want they could even go and say that Darth Plaguies was also Master Sifo Dyas, the dude who commissioned the clone army and mysteriously died 10 years before the clone wars (perhaps thats when Palpatine put the knife to him), and possibly even further by saying that he was the one who created Anakin (influencing those Midichlorians) who as a result was always destined to replace Palpatine as his apprentice, which is the reason Palpatine put the knife to him to take Anakin for himself before Plaguies did him over. This would make the entire Star Wars story/saga the resulting product of one ominous figure's conception, a true puppet master who has now finally stepped out of the shadows and made himself known and consequently must be stopped by the only person who can, the son of his own creation, Luke Skywalker...:eek:

Apologies to all if I have accidentally shat all over the EU with that terrible brain fart of mine above, I've only followed the theatrical films so I'm only working with what I've been given, I would however be interested if anyone could provide some background on Plaguies or Sifo Dyas, I only recently found out that Plaguies was Palpatines master (never really said that in ROTS) and I have no idea who Sifo Dyas was supposed to be and I've always been intrigued why he went and commissioned the clone army.

Courtesy of Wookieepedia - Just had to double check what was and wasn't cannon with this now

Sifo Dyas was a Jedi, was on the Council too. He had visions of a conflict and was kicked off the Jedi Council for suggesting making an army for the Republic. He found the Kaminoans and ordered the clone army. This was around the time of Episode I.
Palpatine found out about this and had Dooku (newly minted Sith Apprentice at this point) kill him off so they could take control of the army later. They then added their own requests into the clone army order (like Order 66).
This was expanded on in a book and a couple of episodes in the Clone Wars cartoon which is still considered cannon.

It used to be cannon that Plagueis' experiments resulted in Anakin's conception, and that he was still alive during the events of Episode I. His death occurred at about the same time as Maul's. Since the book this was in isn't cannon any more this isn't really fact now, but since he is known to be able to create life it is still possible he did help create Anakin.

Would be interesting if Snoke was Plagueis though. Would wonder why he would wait in the shadows for so long though. He would have been playing dead for some 50-60 years (depending on when he revealed himself). Maybe he did find a way to be immortal but it just took a long time to regenerate.

GoktimusPrime

20th December 2015, 11:13 AM

Looks like Randall was wrong. ;)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Star%20Wars/starwars_clerksstormtroopers_zpsu5uvphii.jpg

drifand

20th December 2015, 11:29 AM

So will they start milking by showing how Ben becoming Ren? That would be a bad way to go I hope they will just move forward.

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 01:14 PM

I love the fact that the film elicited this amount of thought and discussion. It's terrific.

The more I think about the film the more I fall in love with it.

It really is a great film and one that just kick starts the whole universe off again.

All the characters are well fleshed out. Gagging to see it again!!!

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 01:23 PM

XMan

20th December 2015, 04:11 PM

Han is Kylo's father, not Luke.

Autocon

20th December 2015, 04:12 PM

Dont really remember the first 6 movies :o This was great but a tiny bit of the dialogue was a bit lame, the editing was fast so some of the homour didnt gel well, it took aspects from all other movies and put them into one (not nessarily a bad thing). Im thinking rey is lukes daughter, not sure on time scale if luke disappears same time as rey is left on the planet? I was thinking that Klyo ren was older than rey, and when ren turns luke thinks its best to put his children on a planet so they can discover the force for themselves? :shrugs:

The thing that really bugs me is that jedi, the force etc is all a myth only after 30 years. Would need a much longer time frame for this to happen. :rolleyes:

Besides some little irritants I would give it 4 out of 5 stars

philby

20th December 2015, 06:11 PM

how old is adam driver or kylo? he looked fairly young to me. i would say he and rey are quite close in age? if the flashback/awakening thing is accurate she looked pretty young when being abandoned, she couldnt have had much training by then.

Lord_Zed

20th December 2015, 07:34 PM

Interesting to see how the First Order seems to maintain a more 'racist' policy, as all of them are human (just as with the Empire), whereas the Resistance, like the Rebellion, are a diverse mix of humans and non-humans. I wonder where this policy came from in the Empire, and it may not have even come from the Emperor. Palpatine himself didn't seem to discriminate against non-humans, as he surrounded himself with non-human aides (e.g. Mas Amedda etc.) when he was Supreme Chancellor. And of course, Darth Plagueis and Darth Maul were also non-humans. One theory I've heard is that while Palpy himself doesn't discriminate against non-humans, someone else with power in the Empire did, and passed a law that only allowed humans to serve the Empire. Palpatine may have approved, since he's not one to discourage hate and anger.

Also cool to see a greater range of diversity (both in terms of ethnicity and gender) among humans in both the First Order and the Resistance. :)

The Resistance is still a little bit racists to aliens, sure they let Akbar and Nien Numn and co who helped the Rebellion join, but they never seem to let members of Greedo, Nute Gunray or the other "bad guy" alien races join, surely not all those green guys are jerks with slow trigger fingers. :p

Agree that the human cast was much more varied this time, I figured the Empire recruited their entire navy from on planet where everyone speaks in a haughty English accent last time. :D

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 07:44 PM

Han is Kylo's father, not Luke.

From what we are told...

XMan

20th December 2015, 07:58 PM

From what we are told...

Yep, by mum and dad. I find it near impossible to believe they could be siblings, it would take away from not only Kylo's last step into darkness by killing his father, and the entire emotion in that scene, but it would also make that very personal exchange between Leia and Han about returning their son pretty damn silly :rolleyes:

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 08:17 PM

Yep, by mum and dad. I find it near impossible to believe they could be siblings, it would take away from not only Kylo's last step into darkness by killing his father, and the entire emotion in that scene, but it would also make that very personal exchange between Leia and Han about returning their son pretty damn silly :rolleyes:

Possibly....mum and dad....hehe

GoktimusPrime

20th December 2015, 08:19 PM

I love the fact that the film elicited this amount of thought and discussion. It's terrific.
Don't you wish that we could have a similar level discussion about the Transformers films?!? I really, really wish that we could. Transformers honestly deserves a better film franchise than what we've currently gotten from Bay. I don't accept the excuse that, "It's only Transformers." Marvel, Beast Wars and IDW (and possibly the upcoming IDW-inspired TV series) have demonstrated that Transformers can be better.

The Resistance is still a little bit racists to aliens, sure they let Akbar and Nien Numn and co who helped the Rebellion join, but they never seem to let members of Greedo, Nute Gunray or the other "bad guy" alien races join, surely not all those green guys are jerks with slow trigger fingers. :p
That's a good point and ties in with what educators refer to as the Hidden Curriculum in fiction where certain races are portrayed as good and others as evil. Going by the films, one might deduce that all Mon Calamari are good and all Rodians are evil. However, the Expanded Universe does mix things up more and shows us good and evil characters across different races. This includes the still canonical Clone Wars TV series, which gave us heroic Rodians such as Onaconda Farr (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Onaconda_Farr) and Bolla Ropal (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Bolla_Ropal), as well as innocents such as Rotta the Hutt (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rotta) and Mama the Hutt (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mama), Borkus (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Borkus) (a Sullustan) etc.). The Original Trilogy showed us both an evil Twi'lek (Bib Fortuna) and innocent Twi'leks (Oola (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Oola), Lyn Me (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lyn_Me)), and the Sequels* gave us the Jedi Twi'lek general, Aayla Secura (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Aayla_Secura)) etc. It would be nice if sequels could show us more aliens among the Republic/Resistance ranks belonging to races that have previously only been represented by evil characters (e.g. Aqualish, Trandoshans etc.). The xenophobic recruitment policy of the First Order prevents the films from explicitly showing evil non-humans, although it is possible to see more self-centred and otherwise morally dubious aliens outside of the First Order (as we saw on Jakku), and yeah, they could include species that have previously only been seen as good guys in the films; e.g. Nautolans etc.)

I don't think that we're going to see a Hutt piloting an X-Wing (http://orig09.deviantart.net/9d5a/f/2014/258/7/c/jek_porkins_by_electrikpics-d7zc8x6.jpg) anytime ever. :p

----------------------------------------------------------
*Yes, I am aware that Aayla originated from the comics

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 08:20 PM

Love the conversation and discourse these movies create. So many fan theories and hypotheses are created which is what makes this universe so much fun 😀

Going to see the flick again tomorrow. To really focus on the lightsaber battle scene amoungst others

Gofigure

20th December 2015, 08:26 PM

100% agree Goktimus. If we had an IDW quality of movie universe it would be amazing. Would allow us to have conversations like this on a regular basis...

i_amtrunks

20th December 2015, 08:32 PM

Agree that the human cast was much more varied this time, I figured the Empire recruited their entire navy from on planet where everyone speaks in a haughty English accent last time. :D

I really liked that they made mention that the first order troopers are taken/stolen/bought and brainwashed and trained from a very young age.

After the clone troopers were professionals (but aged quickly) and the empire seemed to enlist regular humans (not that we'd see if they weren't due to the crappy armour), it's nice to have an in movie explanation as to why the First Order soldiers seemed to be far more competent than hone empire troopers.

I do continue to wonder why they bother with the armour when a single pithy blaster shot can still take them out through the chest plate which should be one of the thicker parts.

Also I did keep wondering how all the troopers knew Finn was a traitor since it seems like they can't take off their helmets very much and Starkiller base was so enormous that surely most had never seen one another, especially without their helmets on. I presume there was some kind of broadcast, but still...

GoktimusPrime

20th December 2015, 08:44 PM

Behind the scenes (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1198126/First-look-scenes-Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens.html) <---a brief glimpse at the use of miniature models and practical effects used in Episode VII. :)

After the clone troopers were professionals (but aged quickly) and the empire seemed to enlist regular humans (not that we'd see if they weren't due to the crappy armour), it's nice to have an in movie explanation as to why the First Order soldiers seemed to be far more competent than hone empire troopers.
That, and the Stormtrooper who was left to guard Rey was 007. ;) I think that when she finally got through to him with the Jedi Mind Trick that she must've projected an image in his mind of a martini served shaken not stirred. :D

I do continue to wonder why they bother with the armour when a single pithy blaster shot can still take them out through the chest plate which should be one of the thicker parts.
My understanding was that the armour simply serves to protect them from lower impact damage, such as melee attacks, falls, bumps etc., but not direct hits. The same could be said about the protective gear worn by modern soldiers in real life; they don't render them invulnerable, but do increase odds of survival by offering superior protection against lesser injuries.

Also I did keep wondering how all the troopers knew Finn was a traitor since it seems like they can't take off their helmets very much and Starkiller base was so enormous that surely most had never seen one another, especially without their helmets on. I presume there was some kind of broadcast, but still...
Stormtroopers only look alike to you if you're racist, you damn racist! :p :p :p </jokes>
I assume that it was, as you said, a broadcast. A warrant for Finn and Rey's arrest was evidently broadcast across the galaxy along with their details, which probably included that Finn was an ex-Stormtrooper.

When they infiltrated Starkiller base and took out some Stormtroopers, I was kinda expecting Finn and Han to wear their armour and pretend to be Stormtroopers in order to move about the base more easily. It's worked before, and both Finn and Han have experience wearing the armour (even if Han wore an older version). Sure, some fans would continue to complain that it would be yet another rip-off of A New Hope, but contextually it'd make sense. :o

UltimateGalvatron

20th December 2015, 10:30 PM

Stormtrooper armor is (as quoted from a Pros and Cons of Phase I Clone Troopers and Imperial Stormtroopers) is that Stormtrooper armour is supposed to take direct hits from blaster wounds causing serious injury, spread the damage across the body, knocking the Stormtrooper out rather then killing him, letting him fight another battle (although some could argue that a knocked out Trooper is equally useful as a dead one :D).

CBratron

21st December 2015, 08:56 AM

Best moment was during Ren's first tantrum and the pair of stormtroopers deciding they won't walk down that corridor.

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 09:01 AM

Best moment was during Ren's first tantrum and the pair of stormtroopers deciding they won't walk down that corridor.

Yeah, that was pretty funny.

"Anything else?"

GoktimusPrime

21st December 2015, 10:22 AM

Best moment was during Ren's first tantrum and the pair of stormtroopers deciding they won't walk down that corridor.
Yes! :D And you can bet that it probably happened a lot during the Original Trilogy too, we just didn't see it.
"Oh look, Lord Vader's choking Fred to death in that room. Let's walk away before we're next."

Then there's Robot Chicken's explanation... that Vader's Force Choke doesn't actually work, but everyone just pretends that it does, and the 'victim' assumes a new identity after each 'death.' :D

Meister

21st December 2015, 10:24 AM

The last battle rey and ren IMO is the weakest point in the movie.
As much as I know ren was injured by chewie his force was rather weak in not able to retrieve a light saber. I mean did you saw how he stopped a laser beam in the start of the movie? Hence this is the weakest part.

Fair point, I guess I found myself interpreting that scene that the reason why Kylo was struggling to call the light sabre to him was because Rey (although off screen) was also calling for it at the same time hence stopping it from going to him, so they were locked in a force battle for the light sabre at the same time which eventually Rey won indicating that her connection to the force (even at a beginner level) is phenomenal, further denigrating kylo as just not being good enough to be "the one"...

Alternatively, since the light sabre has the ability to call out to Rey, perhaps it also has the ability to reject Kylo, who knows maybe it contains Midichlorians lol

Meister

21st December 2015, 10:28 AM

Then there's Robot Chicken's explanation... that Vader's Force Choke doesn't actually work, but everyone just pretends that it does, and the 'victim' assumes a new identity after each 'death.' :D

Those Robot Chicken Star Wars parodies are some of the funniest things I've seen :)

CBratron

21st December 2015, 10:31 AM

Ep VIII Spoilers: Luke and Leia have another sister.
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e175/cbrate/W9YU3jj_zpsec9fwnyj.jpg

Still intrigued? Here's the audition video.
http://comicbook.com/2015/12/19/danny-trejos-lost-star-wars-audition-tape-surfaces/

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 10:33 AM

Those Robot Chicken Star Wars parodies are some of the funniest things I've seen :)

"You're really staring into my soul there buddy. Seriously dude what is it? Is he about to kiss me?" Emperors thoughts.
"Is my dad about to kiss the Emperor?" Lukes thoughts.
"Seriously, get away from me you weirdo!" Emperor's thoughts.
"I hate to interrupt, but I have to ask for a raise." Gary the Stormtrooper.
"Hey let me down! What are you doing?!" Emperor.
"You guys are busy." Gary
"Noooooo!" Emperor.
"Father!" Luke.
"That...was pretty wizard, wasn't it son? I'M BRINGIN' IT BACK!" Vader.

Meister

21st December 2015, 10:37 AM

Yeah, that was pretty funny.

"Anything else?"

Had a lot of points of humour in it

I liked that scene where Rey saved fin from that tentacle monster and when she goes to get him he starts explaining what happened and although not ignoring the urgency of the situation she somewhat patiently lets him finish his story and says "that was lucky"

CBratron

21st December 2015, 10:40 AM

The 'Kylo and Rey are siblings' theory makes a lot of sense if you look at the film. Kylo reacts and acts out whenever she is mentioned. Plus would explain the whole Ben issue with Luke possibly being the father of both of these characters......

I guess we will find out in 4-5 years time hehe

Could be but it wouldn't make much sense for Leia and Han to just dump Rey on Jakku. And nobody decided to tell her especially when they went through such heartache over Kylo's absence?

Meister

21st December 2015, 11:00 AM

Could be but it wouldn't make much sense for Leia and Han to just dump Rey on Jakku. And nobody decided to tell her especially when they went through such heartache over Kylo's absence?

I agree that's a difficult aspect to fit in to that theory. They could say that Han wasn't aware of the other sibling, he left before Leia found out she was pregnant, after Leia had the baby she gave it to a surrogate family so that she would not have to live the life of a Jedi or potentially suffer Kylo's fate. Perhaps Snoke found out about the second child and went after her, Rey with her adoptive family make a run for it back to Leia but during the trip they saw that capture was immanent and decided to dump her on the closest planet so that Snoke doesn't get their hands on her, shortly following the adoptive family's shuttle is destroyed, and Leia assumes Rey died in the explosion with the adoptive family (hence why no one is coming back for her) with Han being non the wiser to her existence and the whole ordeal.

Problem there though is that Leia, being force sensitive would still be able to sense Rey, but then again I did get the feeling that Leia knew Rey in that scene when she returned after the star killer was destroyed...

Ultimatley there are Heaps of ways they could go with Rey and who she really is:)

Meister

21st December 2015, 11:06 AM

So will they start milking by showing how Ben becoming Ren? That would be a bad way to go I hope they will just move forward.

I agree, I'm not a big fan of flashbacks, particularly with Star Wars, hopefully they just divulge that information through dialogue, similar to how Obi-wan eventually tells Luke about Vader in ROTJ

Anyone have any thoughts on the Visions Rey had when she found Anakins light sabre?, future?, past?, I think I'll be trying to pay some more attention to that next time I watch it

Meister

21st December 2015, 11:17 AM

"You're really staring into my soul there buddy. Seriously dude what is it? Is he about to kiss me?" Emperors thoughts.
"Is my dad about to kiss the Emperor?" Lukes thoughts.
"Seriously, get away from me you weirdo!" Emperor's thoughts.
"I hate to interrupt, but I have to ask for a raise." Gary the Stormtrooper.
"Hey let me down! What are you doing?!" Emperor.
"You guys are busy." Gary
"Noooooo!" Emperor.
"Father!" Luke.
"That...was pretty wizard, wasn't it son? I'M BRINGIN' IT BACK!" Vader.

Lol Gary is a crack up

Meister

21st December 2015, 11:21 AM

Don't you wish that we could have a similar level discussion about the Transformers films?!? I really, really wish that we could. Transformers honestly deserves a better film franchise than what we've currently gotten from Bay. I don't accept the excuse that, "It's only Transformers." Marvel, Beast Wars and IDW (and possibly the upcoming IDW-inspired TV series) have demonstrated that Transformers can be better.

http://youtu.be/fhxJtQ6qcKM

yoshi594

21st December 2015, 01:31 PM

I really hope rey was a result of a one night stand by Luke as Disney pretty much killed all of his and leia/solos children by disconting the expanded universe.

I love the confusion of the force kylo has in the movie. He could have ended Finns life when he just stood there during the village scene.

Overall this movie leaves me highly satisfied with an unsatisfied afterthought as it looks like Abrams is not involved at all in the next big movie (he helped write the script in this one).

Verno

21st December 2015, 04:49 PM

I just watched it again for the second time. I was able to enjoy the first half more, but as soon as Han turns up, the movie takes a downward trend.

After Han dies and the Star-Killer is blown up, Rey gets off a shuttle back at the Resistance Base and is greeted with a hug by Leia. But the problem is, these two characters have never met, nor would they have any idea as to who each other are. They don't speak to each other, but know they should hug? :(

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 04:58 PM

Sinnertwin

21st December 2015, 05:43 PM

Captain Phasma.

Screen time: 1:03

Status: Boba Fett.

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 05:46 PM

Captain Phasma.

Screen time: 1:03

Status: Boba Fett.

Top 3 Characters Fans Love That Do Nothing
Captain Phasma
Boba Fett
Darth Maul (he killed one guy and the fans brought him back in the Clone Wars :o)

Megatran

21st December 2015, 05:49 PM

Captain Phasma.

Screen time: 1:03

Status: Boba Fett.
It felt a lot shorter. Did she actually do anything?

Yet the toys & merchandise are being pumped out in her honour. :rolleyes:

Verno

21st December 2015, 05:53 PM

I think it was because she knew Leia sensed Han's deth and was trying to comfort her.
And knew that how?

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 06:00 PM

And knew that how?

The Force?

Magnus

21st December 2015, 06:28 PM

Just saw it last night. I thought it was pretty good, although I didn't really like the fact that the plot seemed to parallel A New Hope so much.

Something I noticed in hindsight is that this movie seems a lot 'smaller' in scope than the last new Star Wars movie. The prequel movies seemed very big and grand in scope, whereas this one didn't feel quite so 'big' - in that regard it's pretty close to the original trilogy (although those movies felt 'smaller' due to budget and technology limitations).

I wish I never read that spoiler months ago that said Han would die - during that confrontation on the long, narrow bridge at Starkiller base, I was waiting for Kylo to stab Han with his lightsaber, so that killed any sense of will-he-won't-he suspense for me. I was, however, partially expecting an explosion or some other distraction to force them apart so they would have to meet again at another time.

Autocon

21st December 2015, 06:53 PM

Captain Phasma.

Screen time: 1:03

Status: Boba Fett.

The one in silver sparkly outfit?

Verno

21st December 2015, 07:09 PM

Kylo mentions the sea and an island when probing into Rey's mind. Where does she end up at the end of the film? On an island, surrounded by sea. Been there before has she, hm?

But in regards to that scene, does anyone feel it was a glorified post-credits scene? The movie would end with the falcon zooming off into hyper-space. Roll credits. Then back after the credits with Rey and Chewie arriving on mystery planet.

Also, in regards to traveling via hyperspace: The Republic fleet can't arrive in time to help with the fight against the Star-Killer, but the Falcon zooms off to some far-flung planet in a matter of moments? Urgh.

GoktimusPrime

21st December 2015, 07:55 PM

Gguuuuhhh... there are some really banal fan discussions out there. I recently had a discussion with some guys (not on this board) who are complaining that only Rey was shown to be a Jedi, and not also Finn. And their justification is based purely on, "Cos that's what we want!" rather than citing canonical evidence. :rolleyes:

Here are the points I raised about why Finn is not a Jedi (based on what we've seen so far -- future movies may change this as new evidence comes to light):
Not everyone who can wield a lightsabre is Force sensitive enough to become a Jedi/Sith. Han Solo used Anakin's lightsabre to cut open Luke's Tauntaun on Hoth. But if he had enough midichlorians^Force potential to be a Jedi, then surely Obi-Wan would have sensed this and trained him too. Also, the description of the Force would pretty much explain a lot of things about himself (just as it did for Anakin), but we know that Han was initially very skeptical about the Force. Every living thing has midichlorians in them^a degree of Force susceptibility, but there are very rare individuals who have a high enough midichlorian count^level of Force sensitivity that they can be trained in the Jedi/Sith arts. Finn clearly has an above average level of sensitivity that allows him to hold a lightsabre and even use it at a very rudimentary level without lopping his own arm off... but so did Han, and he's no Jedi.
Although Finn was able to wield a lightsabre, he pretty much sucked at it. He was beaten in a fight with a Stormtrooper wielding a vibro-weapon (he was only saved when the Stormie was shot by a Resistance X-Wing), and then he was later savagely beaten by Kylo Ren. There is no doubting Finn's incredibly courage and gallantry, but he really wasn't very good with the lightsabre. Imagine a person who has an above level natural ability to play cricket, and they could probably beat the average person in the population... but they're no where good enough to play at the professional level. Whereas Rey is the kind of person who has the natural talent to play in the big league, even without formal training. She's like the Sir Don Bradman of the Jedi. ;)

Top 3 Characters Fans Love That Do Nothing
Captain Phasma
Boba Fett
Darth Maul (he killed one guy and the fans brought him back in the Clone Wars :o)
I would disagree about Maul, because his very exposure to the Jedi allowed them to finally know that the Sith were real (and not just mythical Boogey Men as they'd previously believed). And he didn't just kill one "guy," he single-handedly killed a Jedi! And he very nearly killed Obi-Wan too. Do you know how hard it is to kill a Force User? Try playing the Star Wars RPG or Miniatures game using a fairly average character (e.g. Imperial Stormtrooper) against a unique Jedi or Sith character and see if you can kill that Force User on your own. Good luck. :o

Sinnertwin

21st December 2015, 08:13 PM

Top 3 Characters Fans Love That Do Nothing
Captain Phasma
Boba Fett
Darth Maul (he killed one guy and the fans brought him back in the Clone Wars :o)

Meet the next generations cult hero ;)

It felt a lot shorter. Did she actually do anything?

Yet the toys & merchandise are being pumped out in her honour. :rolleyes:

She did what any good Captain would do when confronted by the enemy!
Acquiesce to their demands without putting up any form of a struggle instead of taking one in the arm for the home team :rolleyes:

The one in silver sparkly outfit?

On the plus side, she did look good on screen. That's gotta count for something? Right? :p

& on to my random musings...

Stormtroopers can hit people and objects :confused:
Father Merrin got cut down. Pangs of sadness.
BB-8 is a machine. Literally and figuratively. Possibly my favourite new character.
2 people enter the theatre, sit adjacent to us and start talking. Loudly. I'm tempted to take my sundae spoon and see if I can perform an emergency lobotomy. They stop talking. I return to my sundae and the movie.
Ooohhh... Shiny Stormtrooper.
Where's Luke?
Kylo Ren has a tanty which we find quite amusing.
Han Solo!
Chewbacca! Raaaarrrrraaaggggahahhaaaghhhaah!
Millenium Falcon! Lots of it too.
Still waiting for Luke...
Who are these pirates?
Oh, there's Leia and Han. Awwwww....
Poe's safe and sound. He reminds me of Han's and Arthur Fonzarelli's love child.
Voldemort is a Sith Lord?
Smug First Order Officer. I like the guy.
They stuck a huge version of the Death Star laser inside Hoth. I can work with that.
Look! There's a weak spot. 0 Bothans does to bring us this information.
Kylo discovers that Rey, despite being aware of the force for only 3 minutes is already stronger than he is.
Han dies. 2nd bout of sadness pangs... :( At least Harrison got what he wanted, even if it was 32 years later.
Asssemble strike force!
Cool flying battle scenes.
Fin and Kylo lightsaber duel. Really should be one sided, but Kylo's still obviously a real noob at these things.
Rey joins the lightsaber party while Fin takes a nap. Proves again that she absolutely owns her cousin Kylo with a game of Force Tug O' War.
Good guys win, bad guys retreat.
Finally! Luke! Wait... that's it? "hey, Mark, just stand there... yep, that's it... don't move... take your hood off.... beautiful, baby! Cut!"

I might sneak in another viewing on a Tightarse Tuesday

:)

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 08:43 PM

Also, as well as Han and Finn, General Grevious can use Lightsabres (quite well, and 4 at once!) without being a Jedi/Sith.

Also, I wasn't really being serious about Maul, I know its very hard to kill Force users, and that fight scene was really cool. :)

reillyd

21st December 2015, 09:05 PM

I have bought TWO figures of Counstable Zuvio, and an ebook, and I must have missed him in a bathroom break. How was he? As cool as the toy?

spiderken17

21st December 2015, 09:27 PM

A couple of thoughts from me
Script was quite predictable, my wife and I guessed the basic premise just on the trailers (and I was actively avoiding watching the trailers).
I wasn't a fan of the "bigger badder deathstar" new idea please.
Han had to die. Harrison ford is a million years old and could die in real life tomorrow so they needed him to be gone.
Storm troopers still can't hit @#%$ and their "armour" must still be made of toilet paper, have they learned nothing?
What was the deal with Phasma? Bling Storm trooper that did nothing. Also, she would not have lowered the shields, she would have taken the bullet considering she was indoctrinated since childhood to serve the First Order
I liked that Kylo Ren had tantrums and wasn't a master, he clearly hadn't finished his training
Chewbacca would not have just walked past Leia after Han dies.
Chewbacca should have had a massive rage attack and clobbered a heap of Storm Troopers
Han would have known by now how powerful Chewys bowcaster was.

Despite my (minor) grievances I was pretty happy with the movie. They cannot please everyone all the time. It is much better than the prequels and I am looking forward to the next one.

Omega Metro

21st December 2015, 09:50 PM

I have bought TWO figures of Counstable Zuvio, and an ebook, and I must have missed him in a bathroom break. How was he? As cool as the toy?

Don't think he was even in it. Neither was Sarco Plank. I'm taking those 3.75inch Action Figures back to BigW!:eek:

GoktimusPrime

21st December 2015, 10:43 PM

Also, as well as Han and Finn, General Grevious can use Lightsabres (quite well, and 4 at once!) without being a Jedi/Sith.
That's different. Grievous is a highly augmented cyborg, granting him a mechanical advantage over his Jedi opponents. He was also trained by Count Dooku (according to the still in-canon Clone Wars series). But even then, Grievous' fighting style is, comparatively, grossly inefficient compared to a Jedi's. Grievous' style is very flashy and showy, but not nearly as effective as Obi-Wan's use of the Mynock Style (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_III/Legends). Even though Grievous was attacking Kenobi at 20 strikes per second, he still could not penetrate Obi-Wan's excellent use of the 3rd Form. Kenobi was able quite literally start disarming Grievous, forcing him to beat a hasty retreat on his Wheelbike. And while the final fight between Grievous and Kenobi was a close one, with Kenobi being forced to use a blaster to kill the General, the General's main advantage over Kenobi was a technological/mechanical one rather than through superiority of skill.

UltimateGalvatron

21st December 2015, 10:49 PM

That's different. Grievous is a highly augmented cyborg, granting him a mechanical advantage over his Jedi opponents. He was also trained by Count Dooku (according to the still in-canon Clone Wars series). But even then, Grievous' fighting style is, comparatively, grossly inefficient compared to a Jedi's. Grievous' style is very flashy and showy, but not nearly as effective as Obi-Wan's use of the Mynock Style (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Form_III/Legends). Even though Grievous was attacking Kenobi at 20 strikes per second, he still could not penetrate Obi-Wan's excellent use of the 3rd Form. Kenobi was able quite literally start disarming Grievous, forcing him to beat a hasty retreat on his Wheelbike. And while the final fight between Grievous and Kenobi was a close one, with Kenobi being forced to use a blaster to kill the General, the General's main advantage over Kenobi was a technological/mechanical one rather than through superiority of skill.
"I think even if it doesn't make sense or isn't effective if we dump a couple a thousand into CGI we could sell a lot of toys to kids and collectors. Plus EXPLOSIONS and VIOLENCE!" - George Lucas
"I think we could be friends..." - Micheal Bay

I still like the character of Grevious, and he sure looks badass even if he doesn't fight as well as a Jedi. I still think that against someone like Han or Finn in a non-Force user fight General Grevious would easily win, but he has had training while the others haven't.

Gofigure

21st December 2015, 10:53 PM

Just got back from second viewing. This time with my 7 year who told me "Dad I didn't like it.........I loved it!" (Almost broke dads heart)

Musings from a 7 year old

'So funny when BB-8 shocked Finn on the bum, twice!'
'Kylo Ren tricked Han into thinking he was good then killed him, that was a bit sad'
'Chewie was a good shot when he shot kylo ren'
'There on a search for Luke skywalker, it's important that they find Luke skywalker....'

Noticed at the end Luke is standing next to a grave? Monument? Didn't notice first time. Hmmmmmmm.......

Gofigure

21st December 2015, 11:10 PM

Oh and in Rey's flashback/flash-forward you hear both yoda and obiwan...

GoktimusPrime

21st December 2015, 11:56 PM

Oh and in Rey's flashback/flash-forward you hear both yoda and obiwan...
Yes. And there are three voices in that vision:
Frank Oz (Yoda)
Ewan MacGregor (Obi-Wan Kenobi)
Sir Alec Guinness (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

Oz and MacGregor both came into the studio to do voice acting. As for Sir Guinness, sound engineers from Bad Robot did some impressive audio splicing to create lines for Obi-Wan to say, "Rey, these are your first steps." This was achieved by cutting and pasting bits of audio from Guinness' lines. I'm not sure which exact lines where used for audio harvesting, but here's a few guesses...
* "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
* "That's good. You have taken your first step into a larger world."
Then it would be easy to find any word that Guinness said with a /s/ sound on the end (e.g. "Force" etc.) and attach that to the end of "step" to pluralise it.
The rather clever thing is how they got Guinness to say Rey's name, which was basically accomplished like this:
"Hello there! Come here, my little friend. Don't be afraid." (Source (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-reveals-obi-wan-and-yoda-are-star-wars-force-awakens)) :)

Gofigure

22nd December 2015, 08:37 AM

Mind blown

Yes. And there are three voices in that vision:
Frank Oz (Yoda)
Ewan MacGregor (Obi-Wan Kenobi)
Sir Alec Guinness (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

Oz and MacGregor both came into the studio to do voice acting. As for Sir Guinness, sound engineers from Bad Robot did some impressive audio splicing to create lines for Obi-Wan to say, "Rey, these are your first steps." This was achieved by cutting and pasting bits of audio from Guinness' lines. I'm not sure which exact lines where used for audio harvesting, but here's a few guesses...
* "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
* "That's good. You have taken your first step into a larger world."
Then it would be easy to find any word that Guinness said with a /s/ sound on the end (e.g. "Force" etc.) and attach that to the end of "step" to pluralise it.
The rather clever thing is how they got Guinness to say Rey's name, which was basically accomplished like this:
"Hello there! Come here, my little friend. Don't be afraid." (Source (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-reveals-obi-wan-and-yoda-are-star-wars-force-awakens)) :)

UltimateGalvatron

22nd December 2015, 09:01 AM

Yes. And there are three voices in that vision:
Frank Oz (Yoda)
Ewan MacGregor (Obi-Wan Kenobi)
Sir Alec Guinness (Obi-Wan Kenobi)

Oz and MacGregor both came into the studio to do voice acting. As for Sir Guinness, sound engineers from Bad Robot did some impressive audio splicing to create lines for Obi-Wan to say, "Rey, these are your first steps." This was achieved by cutting and pasting bits of audio from Guinness' lines. I'm not sure which exact lines where used for audio harvesting, but here's a few guesses...
* "These aren't the droids you're looking for."
* "That's good. You have taken your first step into a larger world."
Then it would be easy to find any word that Guinness said with a /s/ sound on the end (e.g. "Force" etc.) and attach that to the end of "step" to pluralise it.
The rather clever thing is how they got Guinness to say Rey's name, which was basically accomplished like this:
"Hello there! Come here, my little friend. Don't be afraid." (Source (http://www.ew.com/article/2015/12/20/jj-abrams-reveals-obi-wan-and-yoda-are-star-wars-force-awakens)) :)

I literally heard that in my dream last night, it was the last thing I read before I fell asleep.

loophole

22nd December 2015, 09:29 AM

Can anyone tell me who the old guy at the start if the film was? the one that got killed in the village

GoktimusPrime

22nd December 2015, 10:09 AM

Can anyone tell me who the old guy at the start if the film was? the one that got killed in the village
Lor San Tekka (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lor_San_Tekka), who is a new character, but the film definitely does make it feel like he's been in the story for much longer (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Drift_(G1)). ;)

Sinnertwin

22nd December 2015, 10:26 AM

Im a bit disappointed that he didn't get an action figure
😏

UltimateGalvatron

22nd December 2015, 10:58 AM

Seeing it again tomorrow night, and maybe today. :)

DaptoDog

22nd December 2015, 11:33 AM

Seeing it again tomorrow night, and maybe today. :)

Yep I've already booked in the missus for a 2nd viewing, watched it for the first time on Sunday with my brother-in-law. Both our minds were literally blown away by how good the movie was. The last movie I felt like that where I had to see it at the movies again was the first live action Transformers movie.

Verno

22nd December 2015, 11:41 AM

Krayt

22nd December 2015, 12:04 PM

Reading the novel....

Poe got concussion, knew Finn ejected, and woke up in time to land (control crash).... Jacket got caught, left it behind, stumbled off (and probably collapsed again)....

Was picked up by a little dude with a speeder, escaped some spirited in another speeded, and went to a different settlement to find a way off world.

Also, c3po needs to get fired.... When Leia hears about the attack, she tells 3po to find BB8, cause he did the pre-mission checks on him... But turns out he forgot to activate the long range tracking!

jazzcomp

22nd December 2015, 12:14 PM

Just like no one mentions that Anakin is Darth Vader and Luke's father until near the end of the movie EP VI. Maybe it was easier to tell of Darth Vader's exploits as a conqueror than the hero of the Republic as he's killed so many before changing sides at the end. And Luke as the hero is easier as he's a Jedi.

We all paint history differently to suit our needs. If Ben/Ren would've known that Vader was good, it would totally change his view.

Vader never knowingly tried to kill his family. He just killed Jedi trainers/council/kids as his view was distorted. Ben/Ren's story is different in this regard.

Don't know why a heroine is the point of this story now (maybe need to vary it) as Leia never seemed to have learned how to use her Jedi powers as she's Luke's twin (therefore, equally powerful).

Lord_Zed

22nd December 2015, 12:23 PM

Also, in regards to traveling via hyperspace: The Republic fleet can't arrive in time to help with the fight against the Star-Killer, but the Falcon zooms off to some far-flung planet in a matter of moments? Urgh.

Well that's just the same JJ speed we see in his Star Trek films, where you can cross the galaxy and back and be home in time for tea.

As I understood it, Star Killer base presumably wiped out the Republic fleet when they blew up the Hosnian system. Which according to the Guide to the movie books was the governing world of the Republic, so effectively the Republic would be shattered (again). And yet no one seemed to care at all, odd too that the Resistance seemed to know all about this base and super weapon but no one seemed to warn the Republic, or they were to self absorbed/stupid to care.

Perhaps the only was to get decent government in the Star Wars universe is with a tyrannical dictator, because in the words of another villain good is dumb.:D

I would disagree about Maul, because his very exposure to the Jedi allowed them to finally know that the Sith were real (and not just mythical Boogey Men as they'd previously believed). And he didn't just kill one "guy," he single-handedly killed a Jedi! And he very nearly killed Obi-Wan too. Do you know how hard it is to kill a Force User? Try playing the Star Wars RPG or Miniatures game using a fairly average character (e.g. Imperial Stormtrooper) against a unique Jedi or Sith character and see if you can kill that Force User on your own. Good luck. :o

Unless Order 666 is being used then Jedi die like hopeless mooks, all their force senses rendered useless for no good reason.

Sinnertwin

22nd December 2015, 01:01 PM

Was Luke at his wifes grave?
*tense music*

Krayt

22nd December 2015, 01:09 PM

According to the resistance had been warning the republic, but enough time had passed that they were new young politicians with their own agendas, and see Leia as a crazy old lady.... She also has to send aids to try and get things done, as she figures if she went to the system, she wouldn't make it out without some "accident"

jazzcomp

22nd December 2015, 01:14 PM

Maybe they should've killed off Leia instead Han. That would be a very tormenting/haunting event for Ben/Ren.

GoktimusPrime

22nd December 2015, 02:01 PM

Im a bit disappointed that he didn't get an action figure
😏
Dude, it's Star Wars. Everyone eventually gets an action figure! If Wuher (http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTYwMFgxMDY2/z/a9EAAOSwjVVVs62P/$_1.JPG?set_id=880000500F) can get an action figure, then I reckon anybody can (eventually)! :D

Unless Order 666 is being used then Jedi die like hopeless mooks, all their force senses rendered useless for no good reason.
Isn't Order 666 when all the Clones start headbanging to death metal? :p
Order 66 is different though, and hardly single handed. The entire thing is a giant mechanism that's taken decades to prepare. It's an incredibly intricate plan which involves:
* breeding an army of clones that are genetically programmed to take orders without question;
* integrating the Jedi into this army, allowing the Clones and Jedi to build a deep bond; wage a war for several years where the Clones are continually following battle orders under the Jedi's command - thus the Jedi are acclimatised to how the Force feels like whenever the Clones shoot someone;
* activating Order 66, where the Clones are just following yet another order to shoot someone. There is a trigger in the Force, but the Jedi have been feeling it for years during the Clone Wars, and also Order 66 is ordered in the middle of battle, so the Force hasn't even had a chance to "ebb" (thus allowing the Jedi to be more sensitive to any fluctuations). This allows the Clones to take the Jedi by complete surprise.

The whole thing works like a magic trick where you misdirect the audience in order to successfully perform an illusion. Palpatine set up the Clone Wars as one gargantuan misdirection, so that he could destroy the Jedi Order and topple the Republic (thus establishing the Empire). Nobody saw it coming because they were all deceived.

Maybe they should've killed off Leia instead Han. That would be a very tormenting/haunting event for Ben/Ren.
I don't see why Leia's death would've been any more or less tormenting for Kylo Ben than Han's. Throughout the film we see Kylo struggling with the decision to do this. Talking about how he can still hear the Light Side calling him. We also see Ben struggling with the final decision, as he had tears streaming down his face and nearly surrendered his light sabre to Han. It felt like his decision really could've gone either way.

And this is similar to previous moments we've seen when a character switches between the Light and Dark Side -- they have an internal moral battle until one side triumphs. With Anakin, we see him watching Palpatine and Windu fighting each other, torn between which side he should support. Ultimately his own greed/selfishness triumphs as he attacks Windu, but we also see Anakin in tears followed by immediate regret as he falls to his knees ("What have I done?!"). Vader also similarly goes through an internal battle, which Luke always knew ("I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."), and while Vader initially denied it, he used his dying words to tell Luke that he was indeed conflicted ("Tell your sister... you were right."). Vader watches the Emperor killing Luke and he becomes tormented over which side to take. But this time he makes the right decision and saves his son, thus returning the the Light Side of the Force (or as Obi-Wan would put it, it was the moment that Anakin Skywalker was resurrected and destroyed Darth Vader).

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.

Lord_Zed

22nd December 2015, 03:00 PM

I was actually surprised by how little merchandising they had in this film. Sure there's a bunch of main characters and aliens, but they were relatively sparse on the sort of extras that Lucas would put in his films just because they'd make a good action figure.

Isn't Order 666 when all the Clones start headbanging to death metal? :p
Order 66 is different though, and hardly single handed. The entire thing is a giant mechanism that's taken decades to prepare. It's an incredibly intricate plan which involves:
* breeding an army of clones that are genetically programmed to take orders without question;
* integrating the Jedi into this army, allowing the Clones and Jedi to build a deep bond; wage a war for several years where the Clones are continually following battle orders under the Jedi's command - thus the Jedi are acclimatised to how the Force feels like whenever the Clones shoot someone;
* activating Order 66, where the Clones are just following yet another order to shoot someone. There is a trigger in the Force, but the Jedi have been feeling it for years during the Clone Wars, and also Order 66 is ordered in the middle of battle, so the Force hasn't even had a chance to "ebb" (thus allowing the Jedi to be more sensitive to any fluctuations). This allows the Clones to take the Jedi by complete surprise.

The whole thing works like a magic trick where you misdirect the audience in order to successfully perform an illusion. Palpatine set up the Clone Wars as one gargantuan misdirection, so that he could destroy the Jedi Order and topple the Republic (thus establishing the Empire). Nobody saw it coming because they were all deceived.

Ah 66 then, I try to avoid re-watching the prequels, they hurt. Even with the surprise factor though the Jedi went down like flies, which tends to suggest that Jedi aren't that hard to kill at all, you just have to surprise them. It was also awfully convenient that it was in "the middle of battle" on every planet the Jedi were fighting on, although I suppose clone troopers cutting Jedi throats while they sleep wouldn't cut it in a PG movie. While I do kind of like that scene in the prequels I still felt the Jedi got shot-changed (only conehead guy put up a fight), along with half the whole Jedi Council getting taken out in one minute by Palaptine (again apparently thanks to surprise) It's hard to think of Jedi as difficult to kill. Also they really should have vetted those clone troopers.

If the Jedi were such a dangerous threat they should have just waited till most of them were embroiled in a mass battle like Genosia and then use their capitol ships to orbital bombard the whole planet, I'd like to see a lightsabre deflect a turbolaser blast.

jazzcomp

22nd December 2015, 03:15 PM

I don't see why Leia's death would've been any more or less tormenting for Kylo Ben than Han's. Throughout the film we see Kylo struggling with the decision to do this. Talking about how he can still hear the Light Side calling him. We also see Ben struggling with the final decision, as he had tears streaming down his face and nearly surrendered his light sabre to Han. It felt like his decision really could've gone either way.

And this is similar to previous moments we've seen when a character switches between the Light and Dark Side -- they have an internal moral battle until one side triumphs. With Anakin, we see him watching Palpatine and Windu fighting each other, torn between which side he should support. Ultimately his own greed/selfishness triumphs as he attacks Windu, but we also see Anakin in tears followed by immediate regret as he falls to his knees ("What have I done?!"). Vader also similarly goes through an internal battle, which Luke always knew ("I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate."), and while Vader initially denied it, he used his dying words to tell Luke that he was indeed conflicted ("Tell your sister... you were right."). Vader watches the Emperor killing Luke and he becomes tormented over which side to take. But this time he makes the right decision and saves his son, thus returning the the Light Side of the Force (or as Obi-Wan would put it, it was the moment that Anakin Skywalker was resurrected and destroyed Darth Vader).

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.
Human nature. Even law gives priority to the mum versus the dad in custody cases. The importance of your mum who nurture you cannot be overlooked. That's why parents who leave for work overseas are mostly male. The burden of care is on the mother while the financial responsibility is mostly on the father.

Also, Leia also has the force. Han doesn't. Killing Han who cannot understand the power within him for me is easier than killing Leia who also knows the force. Both of these reasons in my opinion makes killing Leia more difficult and tormenting than killing Han. Han could just be sperm donor/one night stand and not really the father role that would've help guide him to the right path.

Vader is different than Ben. Windu vs Palpatine is easy for Anakin as he wants to acquire power that will prevent the death of Padme that he has foreseen. He is easily seduced by that power. After losing his mum, he doesn't want Padme to die as well.

But hey, that's just my opinion. :)

UltimateGalvatron

22nd December 2015, 04:14 PM

So after watching it a second time, I heard "Rey, these are your first steps." but didn't hear Yoda or young Obi-Wan.

Zommael

22nd December 2015, 05:56 PM

But yeah, I don't think it really matters which parent Ben killed. Murdering either one was enough to baptise him in the Dark Side of the Force.

I highly doubt that will be the direction they take with Kylo. The whole thing seems set up to torment him further rather than cement his turn to the Dark Side. Rey calling him a monster, him banging on his wounds mid-battle, his clear hesitancy in the moment... it's all designed to actually make him question his actions and motivation further rather than bringing him deeper to the Dark Side. He may not realise that yet, but he's closer to the Light than he's ever been, not deeper in the Dark, and I expect that's the direction he'll take in the next two parts.

He seems set up to be almost the anti-Vader, or at least the antidote to Vader, in that Vader was steeped in darkness until it was almost too late. I think Kylo will realise what he has to do much sooner and actually find his redemption rather than remaining evil to almost the end. You can see it in his character which resembles Anakin's in the prequels rather than Vader's in the OT; for want of a better word, he's emo, quite entitled, and deeply conflicted. I quite liked his twisted morality; whereas Vader was always trying to seduce Luke with the power of the Dark Side, Kylo is being "seduced" (so he sees it) by the power of the Light Side. His biggest moment is actually yet to come in this series.

Gofigure

22nd December 2015, 07:33 PM

Luke never would have mentioned to Ben that his grandfather, Anakin, came back to the light side of the Force before his death? It never would have come up while training him? That it was Anakin that destroyed the Emperor and Empire?

I think kylo had a warped perspective when it came to granddaddy Darth 😜

Whilst he was Darth he was on the right path of evil (a good thing in kylo's mind) then when he saw the light (or dark if you will in kylo's opinion) at the end of rotj kylo saw him lose sight of his rightful purpose.

Darth was corrupted by the light side of the force

Hence the whole 'I will finish what you have started'

GoktimusPrime

22nd December 2015, 11:56 PM

↑Fair point :)

Human nature. Even law gives priority to the mum versus the dad in custody cases. The importance of your mum who nurture you cannot be overlooked. That's why parents who leave for work overseas are mostly male. The burden of care is on the mother while the financial responsibility is mostly on the father.
:eek: Umm... 'kay... :rolleyes:

Terran laws and precedents don't necessarily apply to alien civilisations set in a galaxy far, far away. I can think of no canonical evidence that supports your assertions in the Star Wars universe. So let's just stick with what we know is true in Star Wars according to what canonical evidence exists from the films.

Also, Leia also has the force. Han doesn't. Killing Han who cannot understand the power within him for me is easier than killing Leia who also knows the force. Both of these reasons in my opinion makes killing Leia more difficult and tormenting than killing Han. Han could just be sperm donor/one night stand and not really the father role that would've help guide him to the right path.
First of all, Han does have the Force. All living things are attuned to the Force. Force Users are merely special individuals with an unusually high Midichlorian count in their blood^heightened sensitivity to the Force. And just because Han isn't Force sensitive doesn't mean that Ben would love him any less. Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force sensitive, but Anakin Skywalker always loved her. In the absence of any canonical evidence to the contrary, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Han was an equally loving parent to Ben as Leia was. Leia did say that perhaps giving Ben away to Luke for training (and thus separating themselves from Ben) might've been a mistake, but she used plural first person pronouns, which means that they were both equally guilty of this. It was words to the effect of, "We should never have..."; this implies that if Ben is going to hold a grudge against one parent, he would also hold it against the other. Furthermore, if Ben had a biased love towards his mother over his father, then surely Leia would've volunteered to go and get Ben back from Starkiller base instead of letting Han do it alone. Or if she was urgently needed at the Resistance Base, she would at least instruct Han to call her and let her speak with Ben should he find him.

And Han would not have been a one night stand who knocked up Leia and then buggered off. Han and Leia had a massive romance in The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi where Leia risked her life to save Han from Jabba the Hutt. The Force Awakens states that the relationship between Han, Leia and Ben didn't fall apart until after Ben became Kylo Ren and destroyed Luke's New Jedi Order. Ren wouldn't be emotionally conflicted over killing Han if he were such a bad father. You could tell that they both still loved each other, which made Ren's act of murdering him so difficult.

Vader is different than Ben. Windu vs Palpatine is easy for Anakin as he wants to acquire power that will prevent the death of Padme that he has foreseen. He is easily seduced by that power. After losing his mum, he doesn't want Padme to die as well.
I wouldn't describe Anakin's fall the Dark Side as "easy." It took Palpatine years to groom Anakin from childhood, and even then, more years to continue to seduce him to the Dark Side. Anakin already had several tastes of the Dark Side before, but still always managed to return to the light. The two major incidents that we saw from the film were:
1/ Committing genocide on the Tusken Raiders. While it was a horrible act, Anakin soon regretted his actions as he broken down and wept in front of Padm�. The anguish that he felt showed that he was still a good man who recognised that he had done a horrible thing ("I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this.") Anakin told Palpatine about this incident, which he then would've used to further groom him (e.g. telling Anakin that it was the right thing to do).
2/ Executing Count Dooku. Dooku was a defeated and captured prisoner of war. He should have been arrested in order to stand trial, but Anakin beheaded him (thanks to being goaded by Palpy). But again, Anakin still refused to fall the Dark Side, as he immediately lamented his actions ("I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Jedi way."). And of course, Anakin never tells anyone except for Palpatine about these atrocities that he committed because he's ashamed.

When Windu and Palpatine are fighting, Anakin spends a long time standing there watching them fight. He is conflicted and doesn't know who to help. His mind is telling him to help Master Windu, but his heart is telling him to help Palpatine. Both Windu and Palpatine know that Anakin is conflicted, and both try to coerce Anakin; Windu telling him that Palpatine is too dangerous to be left alive because he controls the courts (which was true!), and Palpatine seducing Anakin with the promise of more power. Of course Anakin chooses power in the end, but it wasn't a quick decision. If it were 'easy' for Anakin, he would never have let Windu touch Palpatine in the first place. Heck, he probably would never have dobbed Palpatine into the Jedi either.

jazzcomp

23rd December 2015, 03:18 AM

:eek: Umm... 'kay... :rolleyes:
Terran laws and precedents don't necessarily apply to alien civilisations set in a galaxy far, far away. I can think of no canonical evidence that supports your assertions in the Star Wars universe. So let's just stick with what we know is true in Star Wars according to what canonical evidence exists from the films.
:rolleyes: :D

First of all, Han does have the Force. All living things are attuned to the Force. Force Users are merely special individuals with an unusually high Midichlorian count in their blood^heightened sensitivity to the Force. And just because Han isn't Force sensitive doesn't mean that Ben would love him any less. This is stretching it a bit much but you aren't getting the point. ;)

Shmi Skywalker wasn't Force sensitive, but Anakin Skywalker always loved her. You are missing the point that there was no Dad in the picture. This is default. It's not because she isn't force sensitive. Two totally different situations.

In the absence of any canonical evidence to the contrary, I think that it is reasonable to assume that Han was an equally loving parent to Ben as Leia was. Leia did say that perhaps giving Ben away to Luke for training (and thus separating themselves from Ben) might've been a mistake, but she used plural first person pronouns, which means that they were both equally guilty of this. It was words to the effect of, "We should never have..."; this implies that if Ben is going to hold a grudge against one parent, he would also hold it against the other. Han left to become a smuggler during Ben's conflicted time. At least Leia had responsibilities to the republic/rebels as a valid excuse to not be there for Kylo when he was conflicted. There's no evidence either way so it isn't reasonable to assume either way. Being both equally at fault just means that they do not blame what the other did even if each thinking that he/she is more at fault. Guilt/blame doesn't really help their situation so it was pointless to focus on that.

Furthermore, if Ben had a biased love towards his mother over his father, then surely Leia would've volunteered to go and get Ben back from Starkiller base instead of letting Han do it alone. Or if she was urgently needed at the Resistance Base, she would at least instruct Han to call her and let her speak with Ben should he find him. If you say so :rolleyes: and if you think that a call is equivalent to being there.

And Han would not have been a one night stand who knocked up Leia and then buggered off. Han and Leia had a massive romance in The Empire Strikes Back and The Return of the Jedi where Leia risked her life to save Han from Jabba the Hutt. The Force Awakens states that the relationship between Han, Leia and Ben didn't fall apart until after Ben became Kylo Ren and destroyed Luke's New Jedi Order. Ren wouldn't be emotionally conflicted over killing Han if he were such a bad father. You could tell that they both still loved each other, which made Ren's act of murdering him so difficult.
Still not getting it? :rolleyes: I just meant that his role in guiding Ben is lacking as he doesn't know what it's truly like to have that kind of power. Han couldn't teach Ben as he isn't "Force sensitive". Expanding the extent of their romantic relationship isn't the point. You can always love someone but not be there for them. Han didn't want to come home to Leia.

Of course Anakin chooses power in the end, but it wasn't a quick decision. If it were 'easy' for Anakin, he would never have let Windu touch Palpatine in the first place. Heck, he probably would never have dobbed Palpatine into the Jedi either.You didn't get the point. The comparison is choosing to kill your parent versus a head Jedi. I said it would be "easier" to kill Windu than it is to kill your own flesh and blood just so that you can have "power".

I'll end this here before it goes into a further long winded sidetracked discussion. :cool:

UltimateGalvatron

23rd December 2015, 06:41 AM

Can someone please tell me what Obi-Wan and Yoda say during the vision.

Ben (Old Obi-Wan) Rey... these are your first steps
Obi-Wan ???
Yoda ???

UltimateGalvatron

23rd December 2015, 06:41 AM

Also, imagine if Anakin had helped Master Windu...

XMan

23rd December 2015, 06:46 AM

Maybe they should've killed off Leia instead Han. That would be a very tormenting/haunting event for Ben/Ren.

Though in your opinion Leia isnt his mother, so why would the effect be anymore than Han's?

And if that theory is true, the reveal in a later movie would become rather ridiculed.

"I have taken my final steps into darkness, towards the darkside and ultima..."

"oh... he wasn't actually your dad."

"ok... kinda a pointless act then really."

You could argue Ren didnt know, so the act should still mean something, but that's a massive stretch!

Megatran

23rd December 2015, 07:40 AM

I finally worked out what was missing from this film. COMMANDER RIKER.

Valvoline, you know what I mean.

jazzcomp

23rd December 2015, 09:30 AM

Though in your opinion Leia isnt his mother, so why would the effect be anymore than Han's?

And if that theory is true, the reveal in a later movie would become rather ridiculed.

"I have taken my final steps into darkness, towards the darkside and ultima..."

"oh... he wasn't actually your dad."

"ok... kinda a pointless act then really."

You could argue Ren didnt know, so the act should still mean something, but that's a massive stretch!
What? :eek: Can you read again? :cool:

Sinnertwin

23rd December 2015, 09:37 AM

I like Kylo's lightsaber

jazzcomp

23rd December 2015, 09:39 AM

I like Kylo's lightsaber
I guess I'm still old school. :) I prefer the older style saber.

CBratron

23rd December 2015, 09:41 AM

I think the little crossbars are silly.
But the sound it makes is nice and heavy, promising brutality.

GoktimusPrime

23rd December 2015, 11:05 PM

I disagree with most of what you've said, jazzcomp, but I don't want to drag out an argument either, so allow me to submit this basic theory: Han may have been a better choice to send after Ren than Leia, because as Leia is Force sensitive, Ren would have sensed her presence. This could endanger the mission to Starkiller Base. Forget flying low to avoid detection, Ren would've sensed Leia's presence at Starkiller the moment that the Falcon exited Hyperspace.

Darth Vader: "I sense something. I presence I've not felt since..."

And it seems that the ability to sense other Force users is even stronger between family members:

Darth Vader: "A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor."
Emperor Palpatine: "Yes, I know."
Darth Vader: "My son is with them."
Emperor Palpatine: "Are you sure?"
Darth Vader: "I have felt him, my Master."
Emperor Palpatine: "Strange that I have not....."

drifand

23rd December 2015, 11:27 PM

Ren is stupid, he should have clouds everyone judgement and went back to alliance base and kill them all yes including Leia. :) lousy sith.

shockNwave

23rd December 2015, 11:36 PM

When it comes to franchises, the biggest enemy of the franchise is in the following saying; "Familiarity breeds contempt."

So it doesn't surprise me to see that in Skyfall, Daniel Craig and the director created a film involving references to previous 007 movies as a means to compensate for the lack of success from Quantum of Solace.
It therefore doesn't surprise that the Force Awakens does this as well to compensate for the lacklustre prequel trilogy. Although The Force Awakens takes a greater risk by drawing more heavily on the previous movies. But what really surprises most is that this movie is a sequel and reboot rolled into one and thankfully the risk factor pays off better than it does in the James Bond example.:D

Trent

24th December 2015, 10:15 AM

Paulbot

24th December 2015, 11:36 AM

I managed to avoid nearly all spoilers for this film, and I'm rather surprised but I still haven't seen the "big spoiler" on any of my social media feeds yet. It seems that (most) people are showing respect for not spoiling the movie which I find really good.

The only "spoiler" I had actually seen was in that Batteries ad that had the girl dressed as Rey using the force!

While watching I found myself frustrated by the remake aspect of it. Everytime a familiar plot point or scene from the previous movies came up it took me out of the moment because I could see the "we need an X moment" beneath it. But there was a lot to love and I will be going to see it again.

Rey and Finn were terrific new characters. I'm not 100% convinced about Poe - he seemed to have served his purpose in the tale by the time the TIE crashed - but I did get the queer vibe that others are now talking about (something about the way he was talking to that guy next to his X-Wing) but you know us gays, always looking for representation because we don't get it.

BB-8 was a great droid addition. The scene where Finn is trying to convince him to lie to Ray on the Falcon won me over. When it ended on the comic beat of the thumbs up I laughed out loud. I think that scene would have seemed really cheesy in the prequels, but in this film worked really well.

I was a bit confused about the relationship between the New Republic and the Resistance. I wondered if there's something to be said about the former Rebels and how they just keep looking for a fight even after they "won". How big was the First Order? A Starkiller base and a ship or whole star systems in their grasp? All the planets in this film seemed awfully close to each other too. But these are things that I think about watching a film like this because I'm interested in the big picture of this universe.

I was actually surprised that they actually continued to the "Island" scene (interesting how A certain someone already had that vision in their head, thumbs up on that one), I thought it would finish up with them departing for that journey, I agree though those scenes seemed unnecessarily prolonged, would have been fine to just cut off with the hood lowering, but then again walking up those stairs seemed unnecessary when you have a space ship lol

Remember this photo of the cast gathering for a script reading?
http://i.imgur.com/AtQD9B5.jpg

Now I look at it and see Mark Hamill starting to wonder if he'll be in the film at all. Because I was. It did look like the movie was going to end on the jump to hyperspace cliffhanger - but we still haven't seen Luke Skywalker!

Anyone else think Rey is Skywalkers daughter?

And because surely they knew people would be debating this for years, I was expecting Luke to say "Greetings my daughter". Cut to credits.

But no...

Han + Leia = Jania & Jacen (Twins, and Jacen eventually turns Darth), and Anakin
Luke + Mara Jade (Secret emperors assassin who turns good ) = Ben

But also because I'm so familiar with the Expanded Universe and Leia and Han having twins, most of the Rey and Kylo scenes suggested that relationship too.

My overall feeling after seeing it was I want to see more of Rey and Finn and BB-8 and am definitely excited to see the next film.

The thing I haven't decided is if it's worth going to see in 3D next time?

Ralph Wiggum

24th December 2015, 11:52 AM

Clues that makes me think Rey is Luke's daughter:

1. Similar background - abandoned child on desert planet, finds special droid, gets upset at father-figure getting killed hours after meeting him for first time

2. When Ren is mind-reading Rey, he sees she has visions of an ocean and island - exactly where Luke has exiled himself to

3. The music when the lightsaber flies into Rey's hand and she realises she will take the path of a Jedi, is EXACTLY the same as when Luke comes across his dead aunt and uncle and realises his destiny lies on a different path.

Of course, it could all be one big mind-fcuk :)

hanprimus

24th December 2015, 05:10 PM

Just watched the movie and what?! No more Han Solo?! NOooooooo......my favorite character....

griffin

24th December 2015, 05:31 PM

I saw it today, in 2D... as I would see it again in 3D if I thought it was worth it.

I didn't allow myself to get hyped up in the last few months leading up to the release, and I was still left disappointed.

The first act was the slowest of the 7 movies, with very little action happening. The opening scene(s) should be intense or foreboding.
Ep4 had the blockade runner attacked.
Ep5 had a slow start but had the Hoth battle within half an hour.
Ep6 started with the reveal of the new Death Star and Emperor.
Ep1 had a slow start but was exciting to see fully fledged Jedi in action within minutes and then a full invasion force landing on the planet.
Ep2 started by showing us our first significant look at Corescant, which was pretty amazing visually.
Ep3 started with a massive space battle above Corescant. (I'm guessing the spelling)

Ep7 starts with a quick slaughter of a small encampment, and then about an hour with Finn and Rey. It took us until about half way into the movie before we even saw the Rebellion/Resistance... which is similar to Ep4, but that one at least had a significant battle at the start to give a good first impression and stick through an hour on Tatooine.

I think if you took out the Ep4-6 characters from the Ep7 story, it would have been panned more than the Ep1 for its Gungans. I actually wanted to see Ep1-3 again at the theatres, but not this one... I am willing to wait until it comes out on DVD before I will want to see it again. Seeing Han, Chewie, the Falcon, Leia and C3PO were the highlights in an otherwise slow moving story that only has me wanting to see the next two movies for their involvement as well as Luke, who is likely to be taking on the role of OB1 of Ep4 - a supportive role that isn't very active until he is about to die.

Knowing that Mark Hamill (Luke) was in the Movie somewhere (from the pre-production publicity and being at the premiere screening) it was in the back of my mind for much of the second half of the movie... wondering if he will suddenly show up to join the fight... but as some have noted, the final scene felt tacked on at the end just to include Luke somewhere (for the publicity). There needed to be more of a search or adventure than just landing on an island and just finding him standing there.
Because after all, R2D2 had most of the map with him but no one thought to plug him in to get the map by force as soon as BB-8's map was delivered to the Resistance.

I was surprised that there was no mention of Lando (we saw his ROTJ co-pilot), and wonder if he will appear in the next movie... if Billie Dee Williams is keen for it.

The destruction of Corescant felt unnecessary (not to mention, impossible for the Resistance to be able to see it in the midday sky, as their secret base wouldn't have been in the same star system... and even if it was, the distance between planets wouldn't have made it visible).
They also didn't explain much about the Republic Senate, or how it was re-instigated in just 30 years after the fall of the Empire, who needed a large army to keep in line a galaxy that was now a feudal system of governors in charge of their own star systems, according to Ep4. Without a Jedi Order or Imperial army, the Galaxy would have fractured into independent star systems that now had individuals with a lot of power that would be less likely to surrender it by voluntarily rejoining the new Republic (and the Rebellion wasn't a big enough army to liberate and police all those star systems)

And why are they still the Resistance? They liberated the Galaxy from the Empire and there is now a Republic Senate again... what official body are they resisting if the First Order is shown to be a rebellious army that is operating against the Senate, under the command of their own leader.

Now that some have noted on the first page of this topic how similar the plot is to Ep4, it makes it even more disappointing.

The death of Han was not a surprise to me, so I didn't get shocked or upset. I suspected it was going to happen when Ren spoke about him to his master as a source of conflict (so killing him would prove himself to his master), and then just before Han followed Ren onto the walkway I just knew that it was not going to end well. It is sad, but I guess those older characters will have to get killed off or disappear somehow to make way for the new generation to take on the spotlight. I just don't like how certain story writers are required to include a major death for no benefit than ticking the box of having a "tragic" element to appease their Directors & Producers as well as Movie Reviewers... when a good story doesn't do something so permanent on a major or fan favourite character, that prevents future potential plots, and upset the fans you are supposed to be attracting to spend more money on future movies or re-watching that movie.
As Transformers fans, we saw what happened in 1986 when Optimus and other significant Autobots were killed off in the Animated movie... he was supposed to stay dead, but Hasbro had to retcon it due to the backlash of fans, as including the required "tragic" plot element in the Movie was not a good idea (and rarely is... as we see when major characters are killed off in the comics - it upsets more readers who loved that character and will no longer see them, than those who actually got sadistic enjoyment from their death).

I give the movie a 5 out of 10.

griffin

24th December 2015, 06:30 PM

I forgot to mention one thing that kept bugging me through the movie was their new "cutesy" droid for the kids... it used similar sounds as Wall-E, which was also a Disney film, so I think they recycled robotic sound effects from their existing sound library instead of giving it a new unique sound.
Some times after beeping I was expecting it to start talking like Wall-E... spoiling the serious tone at times.

UltimateGalvatron

24th December 2015, 07:22 PM

They didn't destroy CorUscant, they destroyed the new 'Republic Homeworlds' which was a seperate Solar System.

Sinnertwin

24th December 2015, 07:52 PM

Ren is stupid, he should have clouds everyone judgement and went back to alliance base and kill them all yes including Leia. :) lousy sith.

Kylo's couldn't if he wanted to anyway, he's about as useful as tits on a bull.

The only thing that he is good at is striking down defenceless old men standing/kneeling down in front of him.

griffin

24th December 2015, 08:07 PM

I agree with that assessment of Ren... he might have been very powerful with the force but sucked with his saber skills, to have two newbies who had never held a saber before, be able to duel against him for a while, and one actually defeat him.

I also thought that the CGI face of Ren's master (as a hologram) looked very fake (like JarJar), so should have been a real person in a mask (like in the original Movies).

And they still haven't been able to master CG snow yet, as the crashing Falcon throwing up snow on the destroyer planet looked really bad.

Sinnertwin

24th December 2015, 08:23 PM

I think that he definitely needs more work on his force skills, as Rey did manage block and use his force mind power in her favour, and again when they were both reaching for Luke's lightsaber.

Come to think about it, I'd be pretty frustrated if I was proudly strutting around as the poster boy for long lost Sith Lords, only to be bested by an amateur who'd discovered the force 3 minutes ago :p

Speaking of CGI, I didn't notice the Falcon snow, but I also thought that Snoke was represented poorly.

i_amtrunks

24th December 2015, 09:02 PM

Speaking of CGI, I didn't notice the Falcon snow, but I also thought that Snoke was represented poorly.

He looked like a mixture between Gollum and agog from the hobbit films. Very disappointing as I think Gollum forum the LotR films over a decade ago looked better.

Having re watched the original trilogy and this new film, I must say I am disappointed by the limited light sabre fight time. I think I've been spoiled by the clone wars series!

Robzy

24th December 2015, 09:19 PM

The film was good... not great. But still better than a typical Transformers movie :p

Megatran

24th December 2015, 09:43 PM

The film was good... not great. But still better than a typical Transformers movie :p
Hard to disagree with your Transformers reference. Doesn't take much convincing. :D

All this talk of Luke Skywanker being Rey's father. I don't ever recall Luke ever getting married or laid for that matter. For all we know, he's the 40 year old virgin. My bet is on a plot twist with Luke being Finn's father, albeit through sperm donation. Let's see scripwriters working that into the script.

jazzcomp

24th December 2015, 10:01 PM

Hard to disagree with your Transformers reference. Doesn't take much convincing. :D

All this talk of Luke Skywanker being Rey's father. I don't ever recall Luke ever getting married or laid for that matter. For all we know, he's the 40 year old virgin. My bet is on a plot twist with Luke being Finn's father, albeit through sperm donation. Let's see scripwriters working that into the script.
Always good for a laugh! :p :cool:

shockNwave

24th December 2015, 11:11 PM

He looked like a mixture between Gollum and agog from the hobbit films. Very disappointing as I think Gollum forum the LotR films over a decade ago looked better.

Someone on this thread also mentioned Snoke looks like Voldemort and looking at Voldy's appearence in the first Harry Potter movie, he has a point.

XMan

25th December 2015, 07:23 AM

I agree with that assessment of Ren... he might have been very powerful with the force but sucked with his saber skills, to have two newbies who had never held a saber before, be able to duel against him for a while, and one actually defeat him.

To be fair though, he had just taken a shot to the side from Chewwies crossbow and was fairly wounded, which is why he kept striking himself and couldn't concentrate during their fight.

In hindsight the man shouldn't have taken off after Rey in his condition.

Also in my opinion I believe they're eluding to Rey being much more powerfully naturally, similar to the Sith-Ari version of the light side.

Sinnertwin

25th December 2015, 10:29 AM

GoktimusPrime

25th December 2015, 12:01 PM

The only "spoiler" I had actually seen was in that Batteries ad that had the girl dressed as Rey using the force!
I personally never saw that as a spoiler (even in hindsight), but rather just an image of kids playing around with Star Wars. Similar to how a lot of kids might imagine themselves as Han Solo and still wield a lightsabre anyway! It doesn't canonically make sense, but you're just having fun swinging your plastic swords about pretending to be hacking baddies apart. :D

I do like how neither the Finn or Rey action figures come with a light sabre. :)

When it ended on the comic beat of the thumbs up I laughed out loud.
Some people interpreted it as Beebee flipping Finn the bird. ;)

I was a bit confused about the relationship between the New Republic and the Resistance. I wondered if there's something to be said about the former Rebels and how they just keep looking for a fight even after they "won". How big was the First Order? A Starkiller base and a ship or whole star systems in their grasp? All the planets in this film seemed awfully close to each other too. But these are things that I think about watching a film like this because I'm interested in the big picture of this universe.
Yeah, that confuses me too. The Alliance have now become the Republic, the new reigning government. This means that the First Order are now the resistance. How can a government-backed force be called a 'resistance'? What are they resisting against? Shouldn't they just be called Republic Forces/Army? :confused:

Hard to disagree with your Transformers reference. Doesn't take much convincing. :D
Star Wars at its worst is better than Transformers at its best. Sadly. :(

All this talk of Luke Sky<expletive> being Rey's father. I don't ever recall Luke ever getting married or laid for that matter. For all we know, he's the 40 year old virgin. My bet is on a plot twist with Luke being Finn's father, albeit through sperm donation. Let's see scripwriters working that into the script.
Perhaps he conceived Rey through the Force. :p
I still really hope that Rey isn't related to the Skywalkers at all. It's just too damn predictable. :rolleyes: And the last thing that the sequels need is more predictability. ;)

Paulbot

25th December 2015, 12:23 PM

Yeah, that confuses me too. The Alliance have now become the Republic, the new reigning government. This means that the First Order are now the resistance. How can a government-backed force be called a 'resistance'? What are they resisting against? Shouldn't they just be called Republic Forces/Army? :confused:

I'm sure it's all explained in guidebooks, novels, comics etc but it should be clearer from just the text of the movie.

My interpretation as I thought about it was that the First Order must rule over a chunk of the former Empire and are trying to expand it, and therefore in conflict with the New Republic's "free worlds". Former Rebel alliance members, including several of their former leaders, have entered First Order space and are recreating a new Rebel alliance amongst the people of the worlds within the First Order's control; Creating a "Resistance" movement in the occupied worlds rather than the New Republic going to war.

XMan

25th December 2015, 01:55 PM

Considering Kylo managed to hold a laser beam in mid air, make a cup of tea, have a lay down & discuss world politics before releasing it, taking a shot from Chewie who was up way up high in the rafters seems rather weak to me.

True, but each Stormtrooper hit by it was thrown back like 6 feet, so they showed the capacity of the gun being much larger than your simple blaster.

Magnus

25th December 2015, 04:41 PM

With regard to the fight at the end and how Kylo Ren was beaten:

Kylo Ren took a shot from Chewie's bowcaster. The wound slowed him down and made him less effective in combat, but one observation that someone made was that he was punching himself in the wound to make himself feel pain and anger, which would fuel his dark side power/connection. Still, the pain would be distracting.

Kylo is probably also feeling conflicted/distracted, maybe even guilty, from killing his father just a few minutes prior.

He's not very disciplined - you see this in his lightsaber-swinging tantrums. Compare this to Vader at the end of The Empire Strikes Back when the Millennium Falcon escapes - Vader simply walks off the bridge instead of erupting into a rage.

Basically, Kylo Ren isn't as effective as he could be; he can't concentrate and is injured.

Now, to Finn and Rey:

Finn has most likely had melee combat training, being an ex-stormtrooper, so he's probably handled melee weapons at some point. He's already handled the lightsaber, so he has a vague idea how to use it, if not handle it with appropriate technique. He may even have had some unseen practice messing around with it aboard the Falcon on the way to Starkiller base.

Rey has melee combat experience - she used the staff to good effect on Jakku, so she's agile and has good body control, and her use of a staff goes some way to helping her handle a sword. Plus, her newfound proficiency with the lightsaber was a way of showing her newfound Force ability.

GoktimusPrime

25th December 2015, 11:43 PM

He's not very disciplined - you see this in his lightsaber-swinging tantrums. Compare this to Vader at the end of The Empire Strikes Back when the Millennium Falcon escapes - Vader simply walks off the bridge instead of erupting into a rage.
I really don't know if Vader's much better though. When Ren has a tantrum, he damages property. When Vader gets mad, he kills his own officers! :eek: When Ren gets mad, they send in a repair crew. When Vader gets angry, they send in the coroner.

One of my favourite abilities in the Star Wars Miniatures game is this Commander Effect from Darth Vader, Dark Jedi (http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/SWmini/SWminiRSvadercardfr.jpg):
Whenever an allied character without a Force rating gets a natural 1 on any roll, that character is defeated and all other allies without a Force rating get a +2 Attack. (These bonuses stack)
So what this means is that if any non Force-user on Vader's team rolls a 1 on a 20 sided die roll (which means a critical failure), Vader kills that character, which then scares the Poodoo out of the rest of the team who all fight harder (hence the +2 to Attack) because they don't want to be next! And if another character rolls a 1, they also get killed and everyone else gets another +2 to Attack (hence it becomes a +4, +6, +8 etc.). Every time I played a squad with Darth Vader, Dark Jedi in it and I'd roll a 1, I would put on my Vader voice and say, "You have failed me for the last time," and make choking noises as I removed that defeated piece off the map! :p

Vader seemed able to draw strength from his rage, whereas it might be more of a liability for Ren. But this may further serve to demonstrate that Ren's (attempted) conversion to the Dark Side hasn't been nearly as comprehensive as Vader's. He's arguably more of a wannabe Sith.

Ralph Wiggum

25th December 2015, 11:55 PM

I've heard the Disney Infinity game has given away Rey's background. Apparently there is a section where Kylo refers to Rey as his cousin.

Paulbot

25th December 2015, 11:58 PM

I've heard the Disney Infinity game has given away Rey's background. Apparently there is a section where Kylo refers to Rey as his cousin.

It's been debunked (http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/12/24/the-internet-thought-disney-infinity-revealed-reys-parentage-until-it-didnt/) by the person that started it.

YouTube personalty Joe Vargas, A.K.A Angry Joe, posted a video online claiming that Disney Infinity 3.0 spoiled the currently mystery parentage of Rey.

...

It sounds like he says, �Face me cousin!�

....

Kylo Ren merely says �Face Me!� before a barrel explodes above him, making him say �Curses!�. It was just well timed so they sounded like a complete sentence. Joe ended up taking his video down and confirming his mistake in a tweet.

CBratron

25th December 2015, 11:59 PM

I like to think he's new and Snoke isn't a full blown Sith.

We need someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn. Not Force sensitive but just as big a threat.

Lord_Zed

26th December 2015, 01:44 AM

Star Wars at its worst is better than Transformers at its best. Sadly. :(

I dunno about that, the prequels are pretty bad, I think I'd rather watch Transformers 1 over the abysmal Episode 2 at least.

Trent

26th December 2015, 01:38 PM

I like to think he's new and Snoke isn't a full blown Sith.

We need someone like Grand Admiral Thrawn. Not Force sensitive but just as big a threat.

The only EU books that were any good were the original Thrawn trilogy. I agree that someone like him would be much better as the Big Bad

GoktimusPrime

26th December 2015, 02:30 PM

General Hux has the potential to be such a threat.

griffin

26th December 2015, 02:39 PM

It's a shame that they decided to go down the route of Ren eradicating all the new Jedi and Luke running off to not train any more, as this is a story universe of the Force and the Jedi/Sith... and yet we are back to one or two amateur/half-trained people running around occasionally lighting up a saber.
That was the one thing exciting about Ep1-3, was finally seeing the Force in action by MANY fully trained and active Jedi/Sith... it was exciting after 20 years of teasing us with two slow old farts and a half-trained kid in Ep4-6. :p
I was hoping/expecting to have a dozen or so Jedi in various stages of training in Ep7... after all, that's what the title implied to me (the Force was reborn and the Jedi order was being re-established).
Luke appears to be the last person who has any real knowledge of the old ways of the Force, and if he stops passing on what he knows, or gets killed off, anyone new will just be Force sensitive and never be true Jedi (without hundreds of years of re-mastering the skills and abilities of their true potential - like Rey needing to be told of a couple of tricks, which saved her life at the end of the Movse, because they don't just automatically know what they can do).

One thing I'm hoping to see in the next movie (which I was really disappointed that I didn't see in this one), is Leia being confirmed as a fully trained Jedi, from her Brother during the last 30 years. She should be as powerful as Luke with the Force, and a long time has passed since ROTJ.... so Luke would need to first pass on as much of the old Jedi knowledge to someone close or trusted, before going off to hunt down new Jedi padawans all over the galaxy.
She doesn't need to be a master saber wielder or be active as a Jedi in the film, but I think it would have been more exciting to see her written into a situation that showed her using some sort of Force ability, or reveal her very own hidden lightsaber to defend herself or someone else before going back to being a supporting character at their secret base for the rest of the movie.
Maybe (hopefully) that's a major plot point of the next movie, as she has to exact revenge for the death of her husband, by needing to kill her son in a duel. (because Ren is not a worthy or interesting enough villain to be around for a whole trilogy like Darth Vader... Darth Maul was a more interesting villain, and he was "killed off" after one movie - if you only go by the Movies)

Sinnertwin

26th December 2015, 02:57 PM

General Hux has the potential to be such a threat.

By talking the Alliance into submission? :p

Magnus

26th December 2015, 03:21 PM

I really don't know if Vader's much better though. When Ren has a tantrum, he damages property. When Vader gets mad, he kills his own officers! :eek: When Ren gets mad, they send in a repair crew. When Vader gets angry, they send in the coroner.

I'll concede that one. My point was that Kylo Ren seems to be less disciplined in comparison to Vader, and that Vader in general is far more 'controlled' and less likely to erupt in rage.

Vader seemed able to draw strength from his rage, whereas it might be more of a liability for Ren. But this may further serve to demonstrate that Ren's (attempted) conversion to the Dark Side hasn't been nearly as comprehensive as Vader's. He's arguably more of a wannabe Sith.

I think Kylo Ren is trying - he knows that anger and pain are linked to the dark side, which is why he kept punching himself where he was shot by Chewbacca while fighting Finn and Rey. He was trying to augment his dark side power to compensate for the fact he was injured.

Interestingly, Ren (and to a lesser extent, Snoke) is concerned with 'corruption' from the light side. It's an interesting contrast to the recurring idea that the Jedi are on guard against corruption from the dark side.

M-bot

26th December 2015, 03:32 PM

FINALLY got to see the movie today.

6 initial pretty-much-non-spoilery thoughts:
1. Devin Faraci is right - Star Wars is basically FanFic now.
2. Max Landis is wrong - Rey is not really a Mary Sue.
3. From Disney's perspective, the movie worked a treat - I really wanted to go out and buy merch afterwards. I'll resist though.
4. Carrie Fisher CANNOT move her top lip from all the Botox. Seriously. They could've at least CG'd some movement in there.
5. I spotted Daniel Craig's cameo. Simon Pegg's too, I think....
6. It was really very good :)

Trent

26th December 2015, 09:42 PM

I really don't know if Vader's much better though. When Ren has a tantrum, he damages property. When Vader gets mad, he kills his own officers! :eek: When Ren gets mad, they send in a repair crew. When Vader gets angry, they send in the coroner.

One of my favourite abilities in the Star Wars Miniatures game is this Commander Effect from Darth Vader, Dark Jedi (http://www.rebelscum.com/photo.asp?image=/SWmini/SWminiRSvadercardfr.jpg):
Whenever an allied character without a Force rating gets a natural 1 on any roll, that character is defeated and all other allies without a Force rating get a +2 Attack. (These bonuses stack)
So what this means is that if any non Force-user on Vader's team rolls a 1 on a 20 sided die roll (which means a critical failure), Vader kills that character, which then scares the Poodoo out of the rest of the team who all fight harder (hence the +2 to Attack) because they don't want to be next! And if another character rolls a 1, they also get killed and everyone else gets another +2 to Attack (hence it becomes a +4, +6, +8 etc.). Every time I played a squad with Darth Vader, Dark Jedi in it and I'd roll a 1, I would put on my Vader voice and say, "You have failed me for the last time," and make choking noises as I removed that defeated piece off the map! :p

Vader seemed able to draw strength from his rage, whereas it might be more of a liability for Ren. But this may further serve to demonstrate that Ren's (attempted) conversion to the Dark Side hasn't been nearly as comprehensive as Vader's. He's arguably more of a wannabe Sith.

My impression is that Vader didn't kill his officers in a fit of rage though. It was more as though he just had zero tolerance for failure (quite amusing considering he fails at everything task attempts in the OT) . I suppose I t could also be interpreted as just cold, controlled rage, as opposed to the hissy fits we see Kylo throw.

Krayt

26th December 2015, 09:57 PM

Simon Pegg was the scrap dealer on Jakku....

Meanwhile, according to the book (finally finished it) ratio didn't exactly have the rest of the map left by Luke.

The visual dictionary says "most don't know this, but R2 has been storing all info from every system he hacks"

Also "R2 still has not had a memory wipe"

So in the book, after the return to the base, Rey says that the FO has the rest of the map, pulled from the Empires archives. At this R2 wakes up, coz he has the archives as well, and 3PO says R2 is scanning what he has. Then he projects the rest of the map, minus the chunk

Sinnertwin

26th December 2015, 09:58 PM

Vader had that "oh, crap" factor to him, which I found cool, especially in Empire.

But you're right. He didn't do much in ANH, apart from victory by default & in ROTJ he's just meh, I'll lay down here and let Luke cut my hand off.

Lord_Zed

26th December 2015, 11:42 PM

GoktimusPrime

27th December 2015, 01:27 AM

My impression is that Vader didn't kill his officers in a fit of rage though. It was more as though he just had zero tolerance for failure (quite amusing considering he fails at everything task attempts in the OT) . I suppose I t could also be interpreted as just cold, controlled rage, as opposed to the hissy fits we see Kylo throw.

I agree that's just Darth Vaders way of motivating his men.
Good points. :)

And to be fair, Vader is pretty darn generous with dishing out promotions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O1Qd_FNgfM) too. Team motivator right there. :D

ILikeSoundwave

27th December 2015, 12:33 PM

On my way to see it again, only this time it's in Imax.:D

drifand

27th December 2015, 12:59 PM

I felt Ren after removing the mask doesn't look fearsome. It in fact weakens him when confronting Rey.

Snok looks like some Lord Voldemort and wont be surprised if we bring in Lego expanded universe there. Harry potter comes in lol

I am sure Luke could have taken Ren out, but because he is Han's and Leia's son, he didn't. Whatever Rey relation is, she has less compassion and was willing to take K Ren out after what he did to Han which I bet Luke couldn't do.

GoktimusPrime

28th December 2015, 10:06 AM

I made this photocomic (http://otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=22119) parodying the financial and practical issues with Starkiller Base. Enjoy. :)

gamblor916

28th December 2015, 03:40 PM

With the destruction of Starkiller base I was thinking that's an entire planetary ecosystem with countless flora and fauna gone. Also it was so conveniently close and orientated to enemy systems.

Paulbot

28th December 2015, 03:55 PM

With the destruction of Starkiller base I was thinking that's an entire planetary ecosystem with countless flora and fauna gone. Also it was so conveniently close and orientated to enemy systems.

Starkiller base presumably had a hyperdrive like the Death Star right, so it could jump around the galaxy? Otherwise once you've sucked out the sun how would you ever recharge it?

Golden Phoenix

29th December 2015, 02:31 PM

Starkiller base presumably had a hyperdrive like the Death Star right, so it could jump around the galaxy? Otherwise once you've sucked out the sun how would you ever recharge it?

Actually that's a good point.

They would have had to have moved after they destroyed the Hosnian system.

Where did they move to and how did Finn know they had moved there? Finn should only have known where it was. Did they have a set list of stars they were going to or something?

GoktimusPrime

29th December 2015, 07:34 PM

Perhaps it was a binary star system. :p
Also, wouldn't destroying a star also leave a black hole in its wake?

Paulbot

29th December 2015, 08:36 PM

Perhaps it was a binary star system. :p
Also, wouldn't destroying a star also leave a black hole in its wake?

I actually considered a binary system as a possibility, but the hyperdrive seems more likely. But even that is troublesome...

Thinking about the original comment, although the destruction wiped out the "entire planetary ecosystem with countless flora and fauna gone", I'm not sure that the ecosystem would have lasted so long once there was no longer a sun!

But would it fare any better if the planet jumped to hyperspace? Really good planetary shields?

Not sure the logic of this was completely thought through.

Defcon

29th December 2015, 08:52 PM

I thought Star Killer base was the dumbest part of the movie, it would of been a better movie without it. I would be happy if it was just a base, but without the ridiculous super weapon.

gamblor916

29th December 2015, 10:58 PM

GoktimusPrime

29th December 2015, 11:52 PM

To be fair, if I were a kid, I would think that Starkiller Base was freakin' awesome. :D
There are a lot of things in Star Wars that I've grown up with thinking that are cool (and still do think are cool :p) despite later realising that it doesn't make a lick of sense.

Hyperspace. While the idea of wormholes and spacefolding are theoretically/arguably possible (Einstein was the first to propose the curved nature of space), the idea of being able to travel at super-light speed is really more of a plot device than scientific plausibility.Lightsabres. Cavelos (https://www.sff.net/people/jcavelos/images/sw.jpg) explains how lightsabres could be built with our existing technology, and while it is possible, the "handle" would be the size of a factory. ;) One problem that canon has never explained is how to maintain a static blade tip. Also, the shape and nature of Kylo Ren's blade arguably disproves the notion that lightsabre blades are made from plasma or something like plasma. Also, as Kevin Smith once said, the emanating heat from a lightsabre would likely give you an instant sunburn.Jetpacks. Again, as Smith said, they would, "Burn your (donkey) off."The Force. Let's face it, it's magic. And when the Prequels tried to provide a scientific explanation for it, fans got mad and demanded that it be magic. :p Earlier today my daughter asked me if lightsabres really can beat guns, and I told her only if the person using the lightsabre has special Force powers. And this is canonically true -- any regular person who tries to use a lightsabre to deflect a blaster shot will just get shot like in real life!

Star Wars is really just a space opera rather than science fiction. :D

Lint

30th December 2015, 12:13 PM

I thought Star Killer base was the dumbest part of the movie, it would of been a better movie without it. I would be happy if it was just a base, but without the ridiculous super weapon.

Yep, it should have been left as the doomsday device for the final movie in this presumed trilogy (which would have been a nice throwback to the climax of the original film). Now to one-up the threat level in future they're going to have to go full retard: like a weapon that can destroy the entire galaxy in a single shot.

Definitely a more enjoyable movie than the prequels (and even some of the original trilogy films IMO). Found the pacing to be particularly good, especially when compared to the dialogue heavy scene to dialogue heavy scene to pointless CGI battle scene prequels.

drifand

30th December 2015, 02:56 PM

I am with goki here, I think a lot of people try to think too hard and make sense out of every flaw is where you are not going to enjoy the movie to someone sitting back and relax.

I mean you don't need to be a Jedi to spot the evil base that big. I be very concerned if my sun is being played around with someone.

I can totally forgot 1,2,3 ever happened when I watch this movie and that's what made it enjoyable.

GoktimusPrime

30th December 2015, 07:31 PM

Definitely a more enjoyable movie than the prequels (and even some of the original trilogy films IMO). Found the pacing to be particularly good, especially when compared to the dialogue heavy scene to dialogue heavy scene to pointless CGI battle scene prequels.
IMO the Prequels were a poor execution of a good concept, and Force Awakens has been a good execution of a pretty ordinary concept (i.e. mostly rehashing A New Hope). :o

While the Prequels did certainly have their share of flaws, they were - IMHO - fundamentally sound. Because those movies did fulfill the following:
Showed us the origins of Anakin Skywalker, including his gradual journey from being an innocent and good person towards his ultimate fall from grace into villainy. And of course, Anakin's romance with Padm�, culminating in the birth of the twins.
The Jedi in their prime. The Prequels gave us an unsurpassed amount of lightsabre action. As griffin pointed out before, the Original Trilogy was set after the fall of the Jedi; so all we saw were old men, a cyborg and a quasi-trained boy.
The Clone Wars! Something that we've been itching to see ever since the 1977 film where Luke asked Ben, "You fought in the Clone Wars?!" and nothing more was ever said about it.
The transformation of the Republic into the Empire.
Of course, one of the core problems with the Prequels was that the stories themselves were more driven by these events rather than being character driven. The Prequels spent more time world-building which left less time for character-development. We didn't really need to see so much world-building, such as all those boring Senate sessions (seriously, who wants to watch a galactic version of Question Time?), the Pod Race (they only really need to show ONE lap), the Kaminoan cloning facility, the Geonosian droid foundry etc. While they were all cool things to see, they ultimately weren't that pivotal to the plot per se. They could've been made much shorter or just mentioned in passing. Then Lucas would've had more time to intensely focus on characters like Anakin Skywalker etc.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

Hopefully the future Sequels will give us a good combination of having a good character-driven plot, which is what the Original Trilogy gave us (hence why it's regarded as the best by fans). Bear in mind that Abrams is not directing Episodes VIII and IX, I think that we may have a new hope for this franchise to strike back and deliver a return of the story-telling standard that we loved from the OT. :)

drifand

30th December 2015, 09:37 PM

Gee if Abrams not doing the later ones, it may fall back again.

Magnus

30th December 2015, 10:07 PM

Of course, one of the core problems with the Prequels was that the stories themselves were more driven by these events rather than being character driven. The Prequels spent more time world-building which left less time for character-development. We didn't really need to see so much world-building, such as all those boring Senate sessions (seriously, who wants to watch a galactic version of Question Time?), the Pod Race (they only really need to show ONE lap), the Kaminoan cloning facility, the Geonosian droid foundry etc. While they were all cool things to see, they ultimately weren't that pivotal to the plot per se. They could've been made much shorter or just mentioned in passing. Then Lucas would've had more time to intensely focus on characters like Anakin Skywalker etc.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

I would say that what you've described is actually TFA's biggest weakness - it doesn't give us the entire context for what's happening. There seems to be a massive gap in information/exposition delivered on-screen, as if there's required reading/assumed knowledge, but we don't have that knowledge. Yeah, the First Order is descended from the remnants of the Empire, but if the Empire is defeated, why is there a resistance? What's the go with the New Republic, and aren't they fighting the First Order?

Episodes IV and I actually worked in that there was no backstory needed to understand what was going on - the opening crawls for those two movies told us what we needed to know with regards to backstory and context, whereas Episode VII's doesn't.

GoktimusPrime

31st December 2015, 01:23 AM

I personally see it as more of a strength. I think that in the limited time that you have to tell a story that it's not always necessary to overly delve into world-building expositions. I think that it's fine to allow audiences to fill in the gaps. This is what the Original Trilogy did, and I think that it worked in its favour because it gave those films more time to cut to the chase and focus on the characters; to tell the story about what's happening right now rather than what's happened before.

In the OT we know virtually nothing about the Clone Wars, other than the fact that Obi-Wan and Anakin fought together in it. That's it. But as far as experiencing the story of the OT is concerned, that's really all you need to know. Knowing that Boba Fett is a clone and a product of the Clone Wars really isn't essential to one's experience of the OT. We know nothing of Anakin's origins; just that he was Obi-Wan's student who turned to evil and that he's the father of Luke and Leia. But again, that's all you really need to know. Don't get me wrong, I do like world building, and the knowledge garnered from the Prequels helps to embellish the Original Trilogy, but that's basically what they are -- an embellishment. But not an absolute necessity, as far as the core story of the OT is concerned.

If I may make a comparison with Transformers; look at Beast Wars. Although Beast Wars is set in the same continuity family as G1, it stands alone enough that you don't absolutely need to know G1 canon to watch and appreciate Beast Wars. Yes, G1 canonical knowledge does certainly enhance one's enjoyment of Beast Wars, but BW is perfectly enjoyable to an audience who knows nothing about G1. This is because while BW often referenced G1, it didn't stop to weigh itself down by delving deeply into G1 itself. This is what the Original Star Wars Trilogy did -- it referenced the Prequels, but didn't delve into it. The Prequels very much delved into itself, which was fine in many parts, but it became cumbersome in others. As mentioned before, the Pod Race is a prime example of this.

So I think that TFA also does well in simply making quick references to the events that have occurred between RotJ and TFA without bogging itself down by pausing for exposition. The movie provides almost all of the basic information that we need to know, such as:
* Luke did indeed create a new Jedi Order, as instructed by Yoda.
* Ben Solo/Kylo Ren was one of his students who was seduced by the Dark Side and helped to destroy the Jedi.
* Kylo Ren was a member of some order (as seen in Rey's image)
* Ben's fall caused his family to fall apart, as well as forcing his Uncle Luke into exile.
* The Imperial Remnant^First Order has risen from the ashes of the Empire. They are apparently under the rule of a Sith with an adorably cute and cuddly name. Awww... Snokey!

The only real loose end from the film is Rey. But it's obviously deliberate because they're building for the upcoming sequels.

Would it be cool if official canon helped to fill in the gaps? Absolutely. But the Force Awakens movie itself doesn't necessarily have to do this. Isn't Disney going to make some spin-off movies? Cos if so, those films could easily fill in these gaps.

kup

31st December 2015, 10:25 AM

I need to see it again but like several of the sentiments here, I did very much enjoy it. Most of my enjoyment probably came from the feel of this movie which has returned to that of the original trilogy - It feels like Star Wars again :)

This movie is by no means without its critical flaws and a lot of them atributed to how JJ Abrahams makes films, specially in the rehashes of previous plotlines for fan service. We didn't need a third Death star battle and as a result, that was probably the weakest part of the film. Although more subtle than JJ's other tribute work, we also got what is essentially a retelling of the A New Hope storyline but with a sufficiently new take to make it seem fresh but more directly atributed to the new characters. That part of the movie was what made this film work as the Star Killer bit was kind of 'been there, done that' and lacked emotial intensity.

It was also good to see a return to practical effects and scenery rather than a complete dependence on CGI like the prequels. However JJ decided to still use CGI characters like Snook and Maz Kanata (who was kind of a lady Yoda) which they simply don't blend in with the world and look too 'CGI' like the prequels. I hope this gets recitified in future films as they stood out as CGI too blatantly but largely due to how well done all the practical effects were - Kind of shows how CGI can't beat the artistry of practical effects.

In short, I like this movie because it feels like the original Star Wars. It introduces interesting new main characters while still having the old ones around. There is still an air of mystery about it which allows us to wonder and speculate about and the fact that we are discussing it, means that the movie has grabbed us enough to care.

This movie distances itself from the abhorrent prequel trilogy brings us back to how Star Wars should be. The next best thing now would be to delegate the Prequel trilogy as an 'alternate universe' and perhaps give us a decent origin to Darth Vader and the clone Wars :)

Regarding Luke, I think he did set out to find the temple but was probably marooned on the planet by Kylo Ren. That is probably why he was out of contact for so long.

Paulbot

31st December 2015, 08:38 PM

I saw the film again this morning, and enjoyed it more the second time. The first time all the remake bits kept standing out, but this time I knew exactly what to expect and could just enjoy a really good Star Wars movie.

There were a couple of things I noticed on a second viewing. For example you can see the Falcon as soon as they run into the junkyard once you know it's there. And I think I missed the first time that it was a single X-Wing (Poe's) tearing through the TIEs in the "Damn good pilot" moment which made it actually a really great demostration.

The size of the First Order is implied from a line by Maz, and it's definitely larger than what we see in the film. Starkiller base was fully charged and in sunlight, so it presumably was in a binary system. The line about it being an "hyper lightspeed weapon" still doesn't make it too clear how it works.

I was also looking closely at the interactions between Finn and Poe, and while it can be read in to, I actually found that Finn and Rae had more potential relationship potential on rewatch.

In the aftermath of the bar I was thinking how good it was to see a battle taking place in the real world. Like Kup said, the prequels ended up with too much CGI and it was used for too many environments. Real set and real world locations make a big difference.

One other thought I had at the beginning was it would have been interesting if when the opening scroll started it had said "Episode X: The Force Awakens"! How many people would have noticed? Just like A New Hope having an "Episode IV", the suggestion of multiple untold stories would have been cool.

Trent

31st December 2015, 10:00 PM

I too watched it for the second time this morning. As Paulbot said it was much more relaxed the second time. I hadn't completely made up my mind on whether I liked it or not, there is quite a bit to not like, but overall I think it's a good movie that will stand the test of time against the OT.

I thought that, for a Stormtrooper who had been trained in combat his whole life, Finn came across as a little awkward.

The biggest problem I had with it was Han's death. It felt like it wasn't really put in to drive the story forward, like a natural progression of the story, but they made the movie with the requirement that Han die at the end. And because of that it lacked the emotion that the moment should have had :(

Also, on second viewing, in the final scene Rey doesn't seem to be standing there holding up that light saber like an idiot for nearly as long :)

Overall, a solid 3/5. And as a Protagonist, Rey rocks :)

i_amtrunks

31st December 2015, 11:15 PM

DaptoDog

1st January 2016, 12:03 AM

Convinced the wife she needed to see it, so bonus second viewing for me too.

Better the second time around when you know what's happening so you can scan the backgrounds for details.

Honestly think that the more I see this movie, but the less I think about it being a clone of episode IV (but much better acted!) the more I'll enjoy it. It's not a "turn off your brain" action flick but just a highly enjoyable, If not familiar and predictable popcorn film.

Yeh I convinced my wife to watch it with me this time for my 2nd viewing. She scored a watch out of it so I made it worth her while haha. I still loved seeing it again. I was still moved when Chewy goes into his rage after Han Solo dies, when the X-Wing squadron first turns the tide, and when Ren is trying to use the force to take the Lightsaber only for it to fly past him to the hands of Rey.

GoktimusPrime

1st January 2016, 02:30 AM

Regarding Luke, I think he did set out to find the temple but was probably marooned on the planet by Kylo Ren. That is probably why he was out of contact for so long.
But if Ren was the one to put Luke there, why would he also be in search of the map?

Mythirax

1st January 2016, 03:37 AM

Wooo star wars 8 next year!

UltimateGalvatron

1st January 2016, 06:36 AM

Has anyone forgotten Rogue One: A Star Wars Story is coming out next year?

Just haven't seen much speculation about it...

Krayt

1st January 2016, 09:45 AM

Has anyone forgotten Rogue One: A Star Wars Story is coming out next year?

Just haven't seen much speculation about it...

This year :-P

This one gets less speculation as its set between movies.... Kinda already know they succeed in their mission.... :-P

UltimateGalvatron

1st January 2016, 11:02 AM

This year :-P

This one gets less speculation as its set between movies.... Kinda already know they succeed in their mission.... :-P

I was thinking it was still 2015, lol. Personally I think it'd be cool if they had some cameos from characters from Rebels (Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka, Old Rex etc) but I doubt they will be included. Tarkin is in it though.

MayzaPrime

1st January 2016, 11:18 AM

I was thinking it was still 2015, lol. Personally I think it'd be cool if they had some cameos from characters from Rebels (Kanan, Ezra, Ahsoka, Old Rex etc) but I doubt they will be included. Tarkin is in it though.

Would Rex be alive? He is old in Rebels, and Force Awakens is set 30 years after Return of the Jedi... I think of that list only Ezra would be alive.

UltimateGalvatron

1st January 2016, 11:19 AM

Would Rex be alive? He is old in Rebels, and Force Awakens is set 30 years after Return of the Jedi... I think of that list only Ezra would be alive.
Minor Spoilers

The basic plot of Rogue One is a film set around getting the Death Star plans to Princess Leia

GoktimusPrime

1st January 2016, 02:29 PM

Just read an interesting article regarding The Force Awakens, which unfortunately isn't appropriate to share due to the frequent use coarse language. Nonetheless, the author does make a few good points.

This is in regard to the final lightsabre battle between Kylo Ren, Finn and Rey. One criticism that this scene has received was how Ren was "easily" beaten by two novices. Consider the following:
They were fighting a severely messed up Kylo Ren
Chewbacca's bowcaster is significantly powered up in this film. Clearly Chewie has upgraded his weapon quite a bit during the intervening 30 years between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. We see single shots from this weapon sending Stormtroopers flying some 6m through the air! This weapon deals some serious damage. After killing Han Solo, Chewbacca shoots Kylo Ren with his bowcaster and scores a hit. Kylo Ren takes a tumble, but he gets up and walks away, despite having been shot by a weapon that could flip a Jeep! Then, without any medical treatment, Ren goes out in the freezing cold and fights Rey and Finn. So really, Rey and Finn were fighting a severely wounded Kylo Ren. The guy needed to be in a Bacta tank, not in a lightsabre fight!
Finn and Rey aren't non-combatants. Okay, neither have been trained in lightsabre combat, but they aren't novices to melee combat either. Finn, legally known as FN-2187, is a professionally trained soldier. And we know that First Order Stormtroopers are also trained in melee combat, as demonstrated by the vibro-weapon wielding Stormtrooper who fights the lightsabre wielding Finn. Rey's teacher in the combat arts has been her life experience. Growing up on the hostile world of Jakku since a child and having to survive as a scavenger, Rey had to learn how to look after herself. So Rey basically developed her martial arts skills in the same way that martial arts were created in real life in the ancient world and in the same way that evolution works -- she didn't get killed! (re: survival of the fittest) If Rey wasn't a naturally talented survivor, she probably would've died in childhood. She didn't have adoptive parents or an uncle and aunt to raise her. We see her successfully fighting off multiple opponents in hand-to-hand combat. Finn ran to her rescue, but by the time he got there the rescue wasn't needed. Then Rey chased him and beat him down. Han Solo even acknowledge that she can fight. Mix in her heightened Force sensitivity, and you have one naturally potent fighter (Luke and Leia on the other hand were raised in environments that never allowed them to develop melee fighting skills; Luke as a farmer, Leia as a statesman).
If you take the world's best boxer or martial arts fighter, shoot him in the stomach with a high power rifle, then put him in a cage fight with a person who's had Army training and another person who grew up in a violent slum in a third world country, then yeah, the odds of that "ultimate fighter" being able to win the fight suddenly goes down.

P.S.: There is still another criticism of that fight which I must admit that I find ridiculous and cannot justify, and that is a really long pause where Rey closes her eyes and begins meditating before defeating Ren. Really. As if Ren is just going to idly stand there while she summons the power of the Force to beat him. Sure, Vader did a lot of this when he fought Luke in The Empire Strikes Back, but that was because he was toying with Luke. It was never his intention to kill Luke, he wanted to recruit his son. Ren has no such objective! The dude had just killed his own father, there's no apparent reason as to why he wouldn't kill Rey. And even if there were, he could still easily have beaten her without killing her, like chopping off her legs or something. She was just standing there with her eyes closed! :eek: (gah... this is why I can't stand to watch martial arts competitions...)

Paulbot

1st January 2016, 02:49 PM

And even if there were, he could still easily have beaten her without killing her, like chopping off her legs or something. She was just standing there with her eyes closed!
Was she? Just standing there at some point? Do you mean the bit where Ren had his light sabre almost at her throat and she was holding it back with hers, and then Ren got a bit concerned by how strong she was quickly becoming with the force, and Rey closed her eyes until the moment letting the force flow through and she became attuned enough to push him off and get the upper hand?

(It's also a dramatic movie moment of the hero's comeback. How long did Galvatron have his hands around Hot Rod's throat before the Autobot got his hands on the Matrix? Enough time to cut away to a whole other scene! )

Sinnertwin

1st January 2016, 03:17 PM

I kinda think that people don't want Kylo sucking any more than he already does, to the point where they're dissecting his suckage and looking for explanations to losing out to two half noobs.

Remember, Rey can do anything. No formal training required. I'm surprised she didn't move Starkiller Base into another system by just closing her eyes and thinking happy thoughts;)

GoktimusPrime

1st January 2016, 04:05 PM

Was she? Just standing there at some point? Do you mean the bit where Ren had his light sabre almost at her throat and she was holding it back with hers, and then Ren got a bit concerned by how strong she was quickly becoming with the force, and Rey closed her eyes until the moment letting the force flow through and she became attuned enough to push him off and get the upper hand?
Yes! That's the one. It didn't bother me as much when I watched it the first time, but it did during my second viewing when it was much more noticeable. Yes, I understand that it creates a lot of cool dramatic tension, but it could've been done in a more practical manner.

For example...

Obi-Wan Kenobi vs Darth Maul
Kenobi was precariously dangling off a ledge while Maul was toying with him. Kenobi momentarily focuses and draws on the power of the Force. There is a dramatic pause which is also reflected in the music. We also see Qui-Gon Jinn's lightsabre twitching. Kenobi then suddenly performs an acrobatic flip while summoning Jinn's sabre, then landing and killing a surprised Maul.

Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader
Luke chops off Vader's hand as the fight reaches its climax - also reflected in the music and the sound of Vader screaming. The scene then slows down and pauses as Luke looks upon a now pathetically defeated and weakened Vader who is at his mercy. The Emperor goads Luke into killing Vader. There is incredible tension and suspense in this scene as Luke goes through an internal battle... we see Luke calm down and focus as he stares at his own robotic hand. After his brief moment of reflection, Luke stands triumphant and throws his lightsabre away, refusing to execute a defeated opponent. Luke then morally defeats the Emperor by telling him, "You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

Anakin Skywalker vs Count Dooku
Similar to Luke's dilemma, only that Anakin makes the opposite decision and executes. Much like Vader, Dooku was incapable of fighting back. The fight was already finished by this stage.

All of these scenes involve the protagonists pausing to reflect or meditate in order to deal with their fear. In Obi-Wan and Luke's cases, they chose to manage/contain their fear by becoming more calm and focused. In Anakin's case, he gave into his fear, killing Dooku in an act of rage and vengeance. Rey is faced with similar dilemmas in The Force Awakens. We see her initially fail at using the Jedi Mind Trick because she was terrified. After she managed to calm herself and manage her fear, she was then able to successfully pull off the Jedi Mind Trick. And it was fine for this scene to take its time because the Stormtrooper wasn't there to kill her, he was just there to prevent her from escaping. Sure, time was of the essence as Ren was approaching, but not quite as imminent as being in the middle of a melee fight. This scene already shows the audience how the Light side of the Force works, so I don't think it was necessary to redo the same exposition at full length when Rey countered Ren. Simply show Rey taking a deep breath as the music plays Luke's theme -- maintain eye contact. Have her facial expression quickly change from fear to calm determination; same as what Obi-Wan and Luke did. Even Hayden Christensen did the same thing, only in reverse... and if Christensen can do it, any actor/actress can. :p

Or...
...if you would rather that moment be drawn out, then create some physical distance between the characters. This is what happened with Kenobi and Maul. Lucas wanted to draw out some tension in this scene, so he had Kenobi dangling off the wall of a pit while Maul stood seemingly triumphant at the ledge. They're already fighting outdoors, so it'd be easy enough to put some space between these characters. For example, you might have Ren walk towards a frightened Rey menacingly as she closes her eyes and taps into the power of the Light side, then lifting her lightsabre up and blocking Ren's lethal blow at the last second and then turning the tide against him.

I think that either option would work better than just having the two of them standing there locked together like they're in an awkward school dance. :p This is the sort of thing that often plagues Japanese anime and tokusatsu series ("Power Rangers") -- where the protagonist(s) need to pause and have a dramatic power up while the antagonist twiddles their thumbs. There's an anime called Martian Successor Nadesico (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XphjF-fHZkM) which wonderfully parodies a lot of anime and scifi clich�s, and in one episode one of the mecha pilots tells his partner that their robots need to combine. The partner is about to engage the combination sequence, but the first guy says that they have to do it in a dramatically heroic fashion by loudly yelling the name of the their transformation. So they try it, but the partner (who just doesn't care about this) isn't saying it dramatically enough, so they pause and the first guy tells him that he's gotta put more heart into it. So they try again, and an enemy combatant blows up the first robot, killing the dramatic pilot! The second pilot survives, but then suffers from post-traumatic stress disorder.

Remember, Rey can do anything.
She can't make Jar Jar Binks not suck. :p

Sinnertwin

1st January 2016, 04:38 PM

I've always thought that the duel at the end of ROTJ was the weakest -not counting Episode 7's baseball slug shots

Watch it again. Luke and Vader are merrily swinging away when Vader decides to stop and sit down, allowing Luke to slice his hand off. That choreography could have used something more

Megatran

1st January 2016, 04:40 PM

Remember, Rey can do anything. No formal training required. I'm surprised she didn't move Starkiller Base into another system by just closing her eyes and thinking happy thoughts;)
And tapping her heels three times. ;)

Lint

3rd January 2016, 12:05 PM

IMO the Prequels were a poor execution of a good concept, and Force Awakens has been a good execution of a pretty ordinary concept (i.e. mostly rehashing A New Hope). :o

While the Prequels did certainly have their share of flaws, they were - IMHO - fundamentally sound. Because those movies did fulfill the following:
Showed us the origins of Anakin Skywalker, including his gradual journey from being an innocent and good person towards his ultimate fall from grace into villainy. And of course, Anakin's romance with Padm�, culminating in the birth of the twins.
The Jedi in their prime. The Prequels gave us an unsurpassed amount of lightsabre action. As griffin pointed out before, the Original Trilogy was set after the fall of the Jedi; so all we saw were old men, a cyborg and a quasi-trained boy.
The Clone Wars! Something that we've been itching to see ever since the 1977 film where Luke asked Ben, "You fought in the Clone Wars?!" and nothing more was ever said about it.
The transformation of the Republic into the Empire.

I agree, good story, woefully poor execution. I'm watching the Clone Wars series on Netflix right now and it fulfills all but (presumably) the last of the points you mentioned above. In fact if you had never seen the prequel films previously they would appear like some kind of live action homebrew some fanboy has cooked up on youtube based off the Clone Wars series.

To me, The Force Awakens feel like the complete opposite of this. The general story is pretty much a retelling of A New Hope, but the story is reasonably well driven by its two protagonists -- Finn, the man who's desperate to flee his past, and Rey, the girl who's desperate to run back to her past. Both characters go on a personal journey and they grow and become different people by the end of the film. Finn learns to stop running away and become a selfless hero (similar to Han Solo's journey in A New Hope, actually), and Rey learns to living in the past and embrace her future.

Hopefully the future Sequels will give us a good combination of having a good character-driven plot, which is what the Original Trilogy gave us (hence why it's regarded as the best by fans). Bear in mind that Abrams is not directing Episodes VIII and IX, I think that we may have a new hope for this franchise to strike back and deliver a return of the story-telling standard that we loved from the OT. :)

I suspect JJ Abrams was either given or chose to follow the same sort of mandate he got for Star Trek: have enough nods to the old stuff to hook the fans in but establish a new and clear enough playground for the franchise to grow into. While I would have liked to have more of the new trilogy based off EU (now branded Legends) material I think we have to accept that while a lot of it was absolutely brilliant, theres a lot of crap that simply would not work and we'd almost certainly recieve something that violates previous canon AND doesn't live up to expectations.

I hope the future creators and Disney make the most of the fresh start.

GoktimusPrime

3rd January 2016, 09:07 PM

As a nerd, I really really really wanted the sequels to follow the EU. I was looking forward to pointing out the correct pronunciation of "Xizor" ("shee-zor," not "zick-zor"). But alas, this will probably never come to pass. Also, even if it did, there is a chance that actors may still mispronounce the name, unless Peter Jackson were directing (a lot of people refused to believe me when I said that Smaug is pronounced as "smOWg" and not "smorg"). Whatever. Don't even start me on the way that a lot of people mispronounce "Yuuzhan Vong." What do you mean that these are fictitious languages and it doesn't matter?!? :p :p #itsleviosanotleviosa

*ahem* But yes, I would like to see the dismissal of the EU as means for the sequel writers to have the freedom to take the next movies to new directions rather than redirecting it along the same parallels as the Original Trilogy.

Deonasis

5th January 2016, 03:15 AM

I saw it a few weeks ago but haven't been near a keyboard to type so here are my thoughts for a long time ago..

- I hope that Rey is no relation of Luke's or any other established family. Keeping it all in the family is what the The Bold and Beautiful is for. I hope there is no ultra super special family in SW.

- I doubt a bigger-er Star weapon would suit any more movies so I wouldn't mind the Sith go to hunt down Rey's family in the next movie - it is a proven way to disrupt a young Jedi's training. Just like the Star-gun was a new take on an old formula I think a "chase for Rey's family" movie could be a new take on another familiar SW event.

- The defection of Finn was strange. Could the ex-stormtrooper split out hero group if the Rebels start to suspect the Empire has (by a series of strange events) actually planted him? I mean his behaviour was so different from other Stormtroopers that I am surprised that such malfunction was not noticed before this seemingly sudden and extreme battlefield meltdown.

- The safe return of Poe was strange. This is an area where I think the Sith may have pulled strings. Finn could make a great red-stormtrooper-herring whilst it is Poe that is being used. Now I know that Poe pretty much destroyed the Planet-gun but for the Sith to find the last Jedi? I think they would be so ruthless.

- At the time I thought Ren was punching his side to inflate/deflate a punctured lung which would've showcased how darn hard it is to kill a force user AND leave him in a much weakened state for the beginners to battle him. Looking back now I think he was just getting amped off the pain, shame.

- I don't know the back story but Phasma should survive (like they nearly all do) and kick arse in the next movie.

- BB8 worked better than expected.

- Loved Ren's tantrums. It was the best way to showcase his emotional state and immature Sith training.

Tetsuwan Convoy

7th January 2016, 05:50 PM

SAw a few days ago and my thoughts will follow.

Nice visuals, Han Solo and Chewie were cool, but the rest was fairly ho-hum. This was the original Star Wars movie with a "search for....." thrown in for good measure. I've already seen the story of the death star. Twice. It seems ludicrous to think anyone would think that type of weapon is good idea... surely.

The names were stupid. Snoke or whatever doesn't sound intimidating, but then neither did Count Dooku. It's fairly unlikely that Snoke is a fully trained Sith lord isn't it? What with the eliteness of the Jedi and sith bizzo.

Had a hard time liking the characters as well. Finn came off as incompeteant. Rey, kind of unlikeable. Ren was the most interesting for me, as you can tell the commander of the star killer base thing thought he was weak and shouldn't be in the position he's in. I did think Ren was way too emo and when he took off his mask, any threat level he had disappeared. I really hope he is developed more than just becoming a serious bad-ass sith lord.

I think most of all, I found it disappointing as the movie felt more like a re-hash than anything else. Surely with a decent director on board we'd be getting something good. Oh no. Lets just go for the original again.
Needs more Mark Hamil. Oh and that last scene, waaaay tooooo looooong!

2.5 out of 5.

Wasn't bad, wasn't good either. A perfectly safe movie.

ChlorHex

7th January 2016, 06:47 PM

^I agree with what you'd highlighted.

Just caught the movie a couple of days ago... It was entertaining but not the best.

Finn was way too tubby IMO to be believable as a trained Storm Trooper.

Ren could've kept his mask on for a lot longer as once that was off, seeing that emo teen just didn't cut it for me as a Sith Lord (or one to be) and kinda ruined the rest of the film.

Captain Phasma being female kinda surprised me quite a bit... would've preferred a suit more flattering for her or if at least they took off her mask for a second so it kinda registered better in me head :p

R2 suddenly waking up and sharing the other parts of the map... Too easy a gap filler in the plot.

Rey hugging Leia at the end... They haven't even met before :confused:

Entertaining movie and fun to watch nonetheless :)

Sinnertwin

7th January 2016, 06:52 PM

This one killed me

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w661/sinnertwinsphotos/Princess_zpsb2ra217k.jpg (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/sinnertwinsphotos/media/Princess_zpsb2ra217k.jpg.html)

ChlorHex

7th January 2016, 07:03 PM

This one killed me

http://i1335.photobucket.com/albums/w661/sinnertwinsphotos/Princess_zpsb2ra217k.jpg (http://s1335.photobucket.com/user/sinnertwinsphotos/media/Princess_zpsb2ra217k.jpg.html)

Lol :p

The_Damned

7th January 2016, 07:06 PM

i dont know if this has been discussed but regarding the disney infinity game?

"the final boss fight against Kylo Ren, the villain addresses Rey, saying either "Face me, cousin!" or "Face me!" and then "Curses!" as he's hit by an attack"

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/disney-infinity-3-0-blunder-possibly-reveals-secret-about-kylo-ren-star-wars-force-awakens-1534831

Paulbot

7th January 2016, 07:09 PM

It was debunked almost the same day by the guy hat first mentioned it on his youtube channel.

http://kotaku.com/no-disney-infinity-is-not-spoiling-star-wars-episode-v-1749629781

Trent

7th January 2016, 08:00 PM

Captain Phasma being female kinda surprised me quite a bit... would've preferred a suit more flattering for her or if at least they took off her mask for a second so it kinda registered better in me head :p

Not sure if sarcasm or not...

GoktimusPrime

7th January 2016, 11:35 PM

- I hope that Rey is no relation of Luke's or any other established family.
^Agree 100%!

Keeping it all in the family is what the The Bold and Beautiful is for.
And monarchies. ;)

I've already seen the story of the death star. Twice. It seems ludicrous to think anyone would think that type of weapon is good idea... surely.
http://otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=22119

The names were stupid. Snoke or whatever doesn't sound intimidating, but then neither did Count Dooku.
Neither does Ren. I keep on expecting Stimpy to show up and turn Ren back to the Light Side with his Happy Happy Joy Joy song. :p

Captain Phasma being female kinda surprised me quite a bit... would've preferred a suit more flattering for her or if at least they took off her mask for a second so it kinda registered better in me head :p
:confused: It's armour. It's not supposed to be flattering. Armour worn by women IRL have never been designed to accentuate their feminine features (http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--C3LBoYoN--/19cqtiijoju76jpg.jpg).
Historical examples
Joan of Arc (http://f.tqn.com/y/womenshistory/1/S/P/v/2/Joan-of-Arc-51246889a.jpg)
Nakano Takeko (http://www.enkivillage.com/s/upload/images/2015/04/85e2a31fe0b3955d9a2e87c13518eac9.jpg)
Queen Boudicca (https://lb76.files.wordpress.com/2008/06/scott-spear.jpg)
Gozen Tomoe (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/1e/43/84/1e43841b0f01d59c41da4aafafbeed44.jpg)
Modern-day examples
Female Australian soldiers (http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/04/11/1226037/496869-female-soldiers.jpg)
Australian female submariner (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/global/images/thumbs/thumbnail.ashx?src=jobs/navyMarineTechnicianSubmariner.jpg&size=extralarge)
Female U.S. Marines (http://images.onset.freedom.com/ocregister/blogs/letters.ocregister.com/letters.Marines-300x224.jpg)
Female Italian soldier (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Italian_Soldier_Olypmic_Games_Turin_2006.jpg)
Female U.S. Army Rangers (http://www.businessinsider.com.au/first-women-to-earn-army-ranger-tab-2015-8?r=US&IR=T)
Female pilots from the Japanese Air Self Defence Force (https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/a3/8b/ef/a38bef1c3ce56aa34dc6c8b7ded98a35.jpg)
Female South Korean soldiers (http://www.stripes.com/polopoly_fs/1.311363.1414755435!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_804/image.jpg)
Kurdish female fighters (http://ichef-1.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/77406000/jpg/_77406576_77406575.jpg) (they are on the front line fighting against Islamic State)
As you can see in each of these historical and modern day examples, women are pretty much dressed the same as men in battle. Soldiers may have gender-specific dress uniform (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/US-NEW-CLASS-A-UNIFORM.png), but this is what soldiers wear when they're not on active combat duty. It's a form of military business attire, and is also worn at public and formal occasions.

As for removing her helmet, the film makes it clear that Stormtroopers are not allowed to remove their helmets while on active duty. With the sole exception of FN-2187, have you ever seen an Imperial or First Order Stormtrooper take his/her helmet off? Prior to this, the only time we've seen someone in Stormtrooper armour without a helmet was in Episode IV when Luke and Han were pretending to be Stormies. But of course, they don't count. For all we know, Imperial and First Order Stormtroopers may have many more females and non-Caucasian looking humans (or near-human aliens) among them. We don't know since we've never seen one without a helmet before. FN-2187 is the first. Poor ol' TK-421 might've been a female Bajoran for all we know. Even the Star Wars Wikia page (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TK-421) avoids using any gender-specific pronouns.

She speaks with a female voice, which tells the audience that she's female. Other Stormtroopers speak with a male voice which tells the audience that their male. Do these male Stormtroopers need more masculine looking armour and be seen walking around without their helmets to remind you that they're blokes? If not, then why should Phasma?

When Star Wars Episode II came out, some people were surprised to see Jango and Boba Fett being portrayed by Maori actors. But why not? We never see Boba without his helmet in the Original Trilogy. And some fans got upset when they saw that FN-2187 was a black Stormtrooper, but again, the entire Clone Army were of Pacific Island appearance. I think part of the idea of insisting that the Stormtroopers don't remove their helmets in the presence of anyone else is to help visually suppress any diversity.
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Star%20Wars/starwars_montypython_individuals_zpsccr1eax8.jpg

ChlorHex

8th January 2016, 12:19 AM

Gok, chill out man... You're getting worked up for nothing :p
I've been in the army in my youth and I've had female colleagues there who've donned whatever gear the blokes do.
Thing is, this is a fictional universe we're taking about...
Didn't need all the effort you went through to give so many examples from the real world. Lol.
I get what you're saying dude... chill :D

GoktimusPrime

12th January 2016, 06:40 PM

Watched it for a 3rd time today. I found that I can suspend disbelief for most things in the film, but that interminably long pause while Ren and Rey are sabre-locked is still ridiculously unbearable. The visual narrative of that scene played out like this...

Kylo Ren: "Die, scavenger scum!"
Rey: "I'm le tired. Do you mind if I shut my eyes for a few seconds and power up?"
Kylo Ren: "I suppose."
Rey: "Cheers, mate. Much obliged."
Kylo Ren: "I've got a bad feeling about this..."

I hadn't really noticed/remembered from my previous viewings, but there's actually at least one female Stormtrooper other than Phasma. The Stormtrooper who reports to Ren about their search for Ren on Starkiller Base has a female voice (and Ren tells her that the longer that they take to find her, the stronger she gets. He seems to have failed to heed his own advice during the sabre lock :p) A subtle way to letting the audience realise the diversity within the Stormtrooper ranks of the First Order (and the Empire may have been equally diverse; most Stormtroopers never speak in the Original Trilogy).

===============================================

P.S.: Rey's Force Potential

I must confess that when I first watched this movie, it struck me as odd that Rey would be able to display Force abilities such as using the Jedi Mind Trick, resisting and countering Kylo Ren's Force interrogation, and of course, her competency with a lightsabre. However, upon closer examination, the film does make repeatedly elude to Rey having exceptional skills and abilities beyond that of a normal being. It also demonstrates that she is a super-fast learner and is highly adaptable, much like Skids.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Star%20Wars/starwars_rey_skids_zpssllu4zvr.jpg
We see this in several demonstrated abilities, such as:
Rapid adaptation to languages; although this isn't an exclusively Jedi trait, as non-Force users such as Han Solo display the same ability; although even Han still needed Threepio to interpret at times (e.g. Ewoks).
Rapid learning of new systems. Rey was able to successfully pilot the Millennium Falcon single-handed (despite it requiring a co-pilot), including executing aerial combat manoeuvres and taking the Falcon into space-flight. She was also able to initiate emergency repairs, including bypassing the compressor on the hyperdrive faster than Han Solo could. Rey's ability as a pilot clearly impressed both Solo and Chewbacca, as Solo offered to allow her to join their crew. And Chewbacca later accepted her as the Falcon's new pilot. Rey was also able to rapidly figure out how to operate controls on the Eravana (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Eravana); initially accidentally unleashing the Rathtars, but later also remotely closing a blast door to save Finn (where the timing had to be exact). Rey was also able to quickly figure out how to open a panel on Starkiller Base where she temporarily hid herself to evade detection.
Thus given these precedents, I think that it is within reason that she would also be able to rapidly learn how to use new Force abilities.

She observes, she learns, she adapts.
Kylo Ren tells Snoke that Rey is, 'untrained but stronger than she knows,' and as mentioned before, Ren also tells one of his Stormtroopers that the more time that passes, the more powerful Rey becomes; hence his urgency for quickly capturing her (and also the big tantrum in the interrogation room when he discovered that she'd escaped).

As I said before, the film also shows that Rey demonstrates exceptional abilities, which one could attribute to her Force potential. These include:
Extreme scavenging. We don't see anyone else taking great risks in scavenging like Rey does. The first moment that we see of her, she's able to rappel like a professional from the inside of a fallen Star Destroyer. Now it's possible that Unkar Plutt or Teedo or someone else may have taught her these skills, but even then, it appears to be a rare ability. Because otherwise you'd think that something as huge as an Imperial Star Destroyer would be crawling with scavengers. The fact that it's not seems to indicate that retrieving parts from something like that is no easy feat. Other scavengers are portrayed as being far more passively opportunistic than Rey; e.g. Teedo tries to capture Beebee-Eight after happening upon him, when Finn shoots down one of the TIE fighters, we see a group of scavengers quickly run up and begin picking out parts. They pretty much behave just like scavengers in nature -- they scavenger! But Rey isn't really a scavenger, but rather a hunter of salvage. And the fact that we never see anyone else on Jakku hunting for salvage suggests that this is not a common practice.
Competent melee fighting ability. When Finn first sees Rey, she's being assaulted by two attackers. You don't need to have any martial arts knowledge to know that fighting multiple opponents is bloody, bloody hard, even for a trained fighter. It's unlikely that anyone trained Rey in melee combat (as it's not really a directly useful skill for scavenging), so I'd say that it's an ability that Rey has developed on her own. Again, the whole super-fast learning thing. ;) Now couple this super-learning ability with her seasoned melee combat skills, and it's not that far a leap to see that she would be relatively competent with a lightsabre.

"He can see things before they happen. It's a Jedi trait."
- Qui-Gon Jinn

Comparison with other pre-Jedi

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Star%20Wars/starwars_rey_compar_zpseadoj25f.jpg
Previous Star Wars canon has shown us that it is possible for a being with Force potential to independently develop uncanny super-abilities without any formal knowledge of the Force. We see this in characters such as:
Anakin Skywalker; Even as a slave boy, Anakin also demonstrated skills like being able to fix anything that he sees (again, rapid learning; Anakin quickly observed, learnt and adapted). Watto didn't recognise the adult Anakin at first until he quickly fixed a droid that he was struggling to repair. This unique ability then suddenly made Watto recognise him. Anakin was also able to build a protocol droid and at least two pod racers. He was also able to pilot a pod racer, which the film states is a rare skill and should be impossible for humans to perform (let alone a human child). And finally, Anakin was able pilot a Naboo fighter and take out the Separatist Control Ship. Even Obi-Wan Kenobi later tells Luke, "When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot." Anakin also demonstrates the ability to quickly improvise and adapt to new situations, sometimes at Obi-Wan's frustration ("I hate it when he does that.")
Luke Skywalker; living a relatively easier (and mundane) life as a farm boy, Luke's life didn't provide as much stimuli to awaken his Force potential (which was most likely deliberate to avoid the chances of Vader finding him). But even so, Luke still managed to develop extraordinary skills as a pilot despite a lack of formal training (which he desperately longed for, but Uncle Owen kept on holding him back). Luke also demonstrates the ability for rapid super-learning. He becomes reasonably competent with wielding a lightsabre after only one quick lesson aboard the Millennium Falcon. He also quickly learns how to use the Force to help him hit the Death Star exhaust port (where a previous pilot had failed). Luke even surprised his fellow Rebels when he deactivated his targeting computer. In the time between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, Luke also manages to acquire new Force abilities, such as being able to pull his lightsabre out of the snow and into his hand. Luke gained even more skills after his training with Yoda, which couldn't have been easy considering that it was in a swamp, devoid of the resources of training at a Jedi Temple.

Necessity is the mother of invention.
Anakin already had greater super-abilities than Luke because he was raised in a far harsher environment that stimulated the hyper-development of this Force potential. Rey was also raised in an incredibly harsh environment; in many ways even harsher than Anakin's life as a slave. Watto was a relatively benign master who never abused his slaves and kept them reasonably well housed, fed, clothed etc. Anakin even had enough time to pursue interests such as building a droid and pod racers (the latter of which Watto gladly exploited). Rey literally struggled every day just to stay alive. No salvage = no food. And very importantly, no loving parental figures. Anakin was raised by his loving mother and later Obi-Wan became like a surrogate father to him. Luke was raised by his caring Aunt and Uncle. Rey was abandoned as a child and effectively had to fend for herself. Rey would likely not have survived to adulthood if not for her exceptional talent and skills.