Morning all...

[Me Grimlock!]

Hi everyone - can't believe I've never joined before now. I'm a TF tragic since they came out. G1 is my favourite, although animated is growing on me (especially with the number of G1 references).

Moved from Melbourne last year to Canberra.

I'm an Anglican minister - and I wargame and role-play too. You can find me as Chaplain Ridley on WargamerAu.

I'm Me Grimlock! on TFW2005, simply because Son of Starscream was taken.

Most recent aquisitions - Classics Galvatron, Acidstorm, Legends Megatron, Hound and Jazz, and the Encore Skywarp/Thundercracker pack and the minibots too.

MG!!!

[Pulse]

Morning Yall!

Welcome to our TF Home... :)

[Firecracker]

Welcome!

[Robzy]

Bah-weep-Graaaaagnah wheep ni ni bong! :)

[optimus1]

Welcome to the boards!:)

[iceburn]

welcome to be BOARD (don't copy my avatar ok :P)

[TheDirtyDigger]

Welcome Padre. :)

[Paulbot]

Welcome to the board

[Sky Shadow]

Hey and welcome. I've just moved from Canberra to Sydney, myself. (I'm assuming that collecting Transformers doesn't count as worshipping false idols. Or that owning Unicron and Primus doesn't count as worshipping other gods.) ;) (And Animated is the best thing since sliced Beast Wars.)

[autobreadticon]

welcome to the boards

[1orion2many]

:)Welcome to the board:).

[Soundwarp]

Welcome!

[Me Grimlock!]

Thanks for the welcome everyone - I've got an inner glow from it (or it simply could be reflux from last night's curry...).

And I just found Animated Oil Slick at Toyworld Fyshwyk.

[MV75]

Welcome. :)

There's a warhammer thread going on at the moment in the "non-transformers stuff" forum. Also excellent Lego threads too, if you're not a lego fan, just read through them, you will become one and join us in that pursuit too. :)

As for animated, yea, I really enjoy the cartoon, but personally, I'm not really enjoying the toys that much myself, so I'm collecting encore and the latest universe toys too. I love the skywarp/thundercrack pack I recieved last week. Also feel free to join in the aquisitions threads and show the world your proud purchases. :)

And on the universe note, have a look out for the henkei versions of these, they are much better in finish and appearance. There's some news of them in the global news forum, or just look for the "henkei" tag if you use the tag cloud search we have here. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/boardwelcome.jpg

...ironic that you've named yourself after Grimlock, who was a stalwart skeptical non-believer - even when he was staring down the face of Primus himself. :D ;) :)

[loophole]

Welcome!!!!

[roller]

Good mornin

STAR SHINE!!!!

The Earth says hello

you twinkle above us, we twinkle below....

from Hair the musical

[liegeprime]

Welcome Welcome, Mabuhay! And Im saying this welcome reply, it really is morning,... past 1 in the morning heheheh. :D

[GoktimusPrime]

STAR SHINE!!!!

The Earth says hello

you twinkle above us, we twinkle below....

from Hair the musical
I've never seen Hair, but that's an eerily close translation for "elen sila lumenn omentielvo" which is Elvish for "the stars shine upon the moment of our meeting." :p ;)

*nerd.snort.laff* B^)

[Saintly]

welcome minister :)

hope you enjoy your stay... I've had my 2yr stink in Canberra looooong time ago

[Sam]

Welcome to the board "Me Grimlock!".

I hope you enjoy your stay. :)

[STL]

Welcome!

[Vector Sigma 13]

Welcome, always good to see people from all walks on here. Does Ozformers need a Chaplain? Well it couldnt hurt any!

[dirge]

Well, we're not an army. I don't think we need someone on standby for last rites :cool:

Welcome.

[Me Grimlock!]

Hey - I am called Chaplain Ridley on WargamerAu and RPGMeetup. And don't think the last rites aren't necessary - I'm saddened and surprised by the number of tributes to departed members of TFW2005. Man, the kids of the 1980s are getting older. In my day...


As for the Grimlock as unbeliever reference from earlier - it was only in the US comics that he had that problem - there was no Primus in G1. But after the showdown in issue 75 with Unicron it wasn't Primus' existence that Grimlock doubted but his purpose for the TF race - "Creator think he make one race, he not - make two races that start calling themselves Autobot and Decepticon". Think it was the issue when he turned into an Action Master.

[GoktimusPrime]

As for the Grimlock as unbeliever reference from earlier - it was only in the US comics that he had that problem - there was no Primus in G1.
What?! Generation 1 is a term that was retrospectively created to describe Transformers before Transformers Generation 2. Transformers Generation 2 came into existence in 1993, thus everything Transformers created before the G2 brand in 1993 is Generation 1!

If you're saying that Primus didn't exist in G1 then where did he come from?? G2? That's certainly not the case. Also, Primus originated in the UK comics - although the US and UK comics are part of the same continuity (with some notable exceptions like the Earthforce Saga).

Primus, as he originally appeared in the UK G1 comics
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/7/7f/Primus_original.jpg/180px-Primus_original.jpg

Primus vs Unicron in a later appearance in the US G1 comics
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/f/f5/Primusoriginal.jpg/180px-Primusoriginal.jpg

Suggesting that the G1 comics are not G1 is just wrong. It was Marvel Comics who created the entire background mythos for Transformers in the beginning and the comics came out before the G1 cartoon and continued long after the cartoon ended (cartoon = 1985-87, comics = 1984-92). Marvel would publish the Generation 2 comics in 1993, but Primus already made an appearance well before then. In fact, Primus doesn't appear nor is mentioned in G2 - rather G2 focuses on the malevolent divine entity known as the Swarm (ultimately transformed by the Matrix into what would be the Vok as seen in Beast Wars).


But after the showdown in issue 75 with Unicron it wasn't Primus' existence that Grimlock doubted but his purpose for the TF race - "Creator think he make one race, he not - make two races that start calling themselves Autobot and Decepticon". Think it was the issue when he turned into an Action Master.
I think it's safe to say that Grimlock became a believer in Primus after Primus woke up and transported him (alongside Bumblebee, Jazz, Seawatch, Stakeout, Red Hot and Fixit to Earth). But it doesn't change the fact that Grimlock was an adamant non-believer and skeptic when the Autobots found Primus. He was the only one who refused to kneel before Primus and demanded the Keeper to prove his claim that Primus was the God of Transformers.

Grimlock came to believe in Primus after being presented with evidence, unlike the other Autobots who were willing to believe in Primus through sheer faith and undemanding of further proof aside from seeing their God. :D

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/b/b2/PrimusG1.jpg/300px-PrimusG1.jpg
The sight of their living God made all the Autobots into believers, save Grimlock who demanded further evidence.

[Paulbot]

Me, Grimlock did you mean in the G1 "cartoon"?

Cleary you know Primus was in the US comics because you quoted from issue #76. :)

[MV75]

Me, Grimlock did you mean in the G1 "cartoon"?

Cleary you know Primus was in the US comics because you quoted from issue #76. :)

Of course he did. I myself only count the cartoon and toyline as G1 to me. I see comics as another storyline, pretty much what beast wars is to cybertron.

Gok is just utterly useless at reading between the lines and lateral thinking. ;) :p

So don't take what he said as a personal throw down or anything Me Grimlock!.

Goktimus just likes to explode his encylopedic knowledge all the time, and sometimes without doing a little pre-processing of what was really said by others first. :) But he's very entertaining and informative. Don't stop what you do Gok. :)

[dirge]

MV75, anything before G2 _is_ generally considered G1. Goktimus is being informative, it's not his issue if you choose to use your own personal definition. If you choose to use that, you're welcome to, but don't have a swipe at others (yes, I know it's lighthearted) because you feel the need to use a different definition to the fandom in general.

It's not about reading between the lines, "there was no Primus in G1" is factually incorrect. Granted, Gok used 400 words when 20 would have done, but the content of his message is correct.

Me Grimlock!, for future reference, if you're referring specifically to the G1 Cartoon (and excluding the comic), it's better to actually state that you're referring to the cartoon - it makes sure everyone is on the same page as you (:

[Tiby]

Welcome aboard!

[k.wong23]

Welcome buddy :)

[Me Grimlock!]

What?! Generation 1 is a term that was retrospectively created to describe Transformers before Transformers Generation 2. Transformers Generation 2 came into existence in 1993, thus everything Transformers created before the G2 brand in 1993 is Generation 1!

If you're saying that Primus didn't exist in G1 then where did he come from?? G2? That's certainly not the case. Also, Primus originated in the UK comics - although the US and UK comics are part of the same continuity (with some notable exceptions like the Earthforce Saga).

Primus, as he originally appeared in the UK G1 comics
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/7/7f/Primus_original.jpg/180px-Primus_original.jpg

Primus vs Unicron in a later appearance in the US G1 comics
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/f/f5/Primusoriginal.jpg/180px-Primusoriginal.jpg

Suggesting that the G1 comics are not G1 is just wrong. It was Marvel Comics who created the entire background mythos for Transformers in the beginning and the comics came out before the G1 cartoon and continued long after the cartoon ended (cartoon = 1985-87, comics = 1984-92). Marvel would publish the Generation 2 comics in 1993, but Primus already made an appearance well before then. In fact, Primus doesn't appear nor is mentioned in G2 - rather G2 focuses on the malevolent divine entity known as the Swarm (ultimately transformed by the Matrix into what would be the Vok as seen in Beast Wars).


I think it's safe to say that Grimlock became a believer in Primus after Primus woke up and transported him (alongside Bumblebee, Jazz, Seawatch, Stakeout, Red Hot and Fixit to Earth). But it doesn't change the fact that Grimlock was an adamant non-believer and skeptic when the Autobots found Primus. He was the only one who refused to kneel before Primus and demanded the Keeper to prove his claim that Primus was the God of Transformers.

Grimlock came to believe in Primus after being presented with evidence, unlike the other Autobots who were willing to believe in Primus through sheer faith and undemanding of further proof aside from seeing their God. :D

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/b/b2/PrimusG1.jpg/300px-PrimusG1.jpg
The sight of their living God made all the Autobots into believers, save Grimlock who demanded further evidence.


Yeah - know the comic, but in my mind, G1 is the cartoon - G1 Marvel is the hash job they did in the comics - ulitmately the two universes are too different. It didn't help that successive generations have mixed the mythos of both. As far as I'm concerned the TF's were the products of the Quints. Bot = Consumer goods. Cons = Military hardware. As revealed in the post-movie episode where some of the bots got thrown back in time and met A3/Alpha Trion.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, but that's just your own personal opinion/preference, not a fact. The fact is that all things TF related created before the 1993 Generation 2 brand is widely considered to be Generation 1, and the term Generation 1 (also spelt "Generation One") has been adopted and used in an official capacity to describe all things pre-G2.


G1 Marvel is the hash job they did in the comics
"G1 Marvel" refers to both the comics and cartoon as Marvel also produced the cartoon under contract from Sunbow Productions... hence why you see both Marvel and Sunbow's logo in the cartoon.

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/3/30/Sunbowmarvel.jpg

And what hash job?? The comics' continuity was a lot tighter than the comics and the story-telling was done at a higher and more mature level. The comics actually gave us characters with complex facets who changed and evolved as the series progressed. The cartoon gave us largely shallow one-dimensional caricatures.


ulitmately the two universes are too different.
That doesn't make one universe more or less valid than the other. As different as they may be, they are all valid forms of G1. Be it the:
+ Comics
+ Cartoon
+ Story books
+ Colouring-in books
+ Toy continuity (e.g.: Optimus Prime's Nucleon Quest)
+ Adventure-books
+ Manga
+ Animé
etc etc etc.

Transformers has never had a single continuity and while it's fine for you to have a preference of one continuity over others, I don't think it's fair to say that your personally preferred continuity is better or more valid than others.

Holy cow it's Sparkplug's long-lost third son, Butch Witwicky!!
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/9/90/Butch.jpg/300px-Butch.jpg


It didn't help that successive generations have mixed the mythos of both.
But remember that Beast Wars writers were ignorant of Transformers when they were first hired to write Beast Wars. They then made a conscious decision to research Transformers Generation 1 and 2 by watching excerpts from the cartoon, comics and toys (tech specs) - as well as consulting with Transformer fans online (hence why the show is littered with references to Transfans and Transfandom, as an act of gratitude for the assistance they got from fans).

Beast Wars is overall a continuation from an "overall G1" - which is really an amalgam of the cartoon and comics. If it bothers you that much, just think of Beast Wars as existing in another reality where their G1 was different from the cartoon or comics but happens to contain elements of both (although their reference to G2 is consistent! :)).

Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio didn't have to research into G1 and G2. They could've completely ignored it and made Beast Wars into an entirely different reality - which is what most other TF writers do (e.g.: Car Robot, Armadaverse, movie, Animated, DW, IDW etc) because it's just easier for writers to do that. Slotting Beast Wars into G1/G2 continuity was hard work and required Forward and DiTillio to spend hours of their free (unpaid) time doing homework with researching into G1 and G2 continuities.

Okay, it wasn't perfect - but I really respect them for putting in that amount of dedication and effort into their work just to make us happy!

Beast Machines though carries on directly from the G1 cartoon - it draws no references from the comics (this is of course because it was written by G1 writer Marty Isenberg... although Isenberg hasn't done the same when he wrote Animated - probably because he was directed by Hasbro to make Animated a whole new continuity).


As far as I'm concerned the TF's were the products of the Quints. Bot = Consumer goods. Cons = Military hardware. As revealed in the post-movie episode where some of the bots got thrown back in time and met A3/Alpha Trion.
Again, that's your personal preference and you're entitled to it. But it doesn't mean that other continuities are less valid because of it.

I prefer the comic continuity. I much prefer the Transformers as being the children of Primus. Having said that, I don't go around discounting the G1 cartoon or any other form of G1 just because I happen to prefer the comics! I mean, I really hate the G1 Victory manga... but I don't discount it as part of G1. The fact is that it is Generation One, regardless of what I or anyone else thinks about the Decepticons being married with children (*shudders*).

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/b/b2/Esmeryl-manga.jpg/250px-Esmeryl-manga.jpg "Welcome home, honey!"

So while you're perfectly welcome to your preferences and opinions - remember that it's a fact that there are aspects of G1 beyond just the cartoon and toys! Anything related to Transformers that was created under licence from Hasbro Inc. and/or Takara Co., Ltd is G1 - and it's been officially retconned as so.

There's also retro-G1 too, as in the now-defunct DW War Within and G1 series and current G1 series from IDW, including "All Hail Megatron" which is written by Australian writer (and user on this board) Shane McCarthy (there's photos of him in one of the Perth fan meet threads). (^O^)

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/artman/uploads/autobotcover.jpg

[kup]

After reading all the Marvel comics (US&UK) for me the Marvel continuity is the continuity I think of now when refering to G1 but that's my preference only.

In my oppinion the continuity there is so much better than the cartoon and it also adds precedence as the comic is older and by the admittance of Sunbow and Marvel, the cartoon opening episodes (MTMTE) is an adaptation of the original G1 Marvel 4 issue comic miniseries. They went into radically different paths after that but the comic still has precedence and is every bit as much 'G1' as the cartoon.

It is up to the individual to choose which 'path' they wish to follow when it comes to Transformers but its hard to deny that the comics have both precedence and are every bit as much 'G1' as the cartoon and based on the legacy of a given continuity. It also could be argued that comics have more influence than the cartoon itself since the modern mythos grab much from the Marvel comics as its background with bits and pieces of the cartoon continuity (which aside from the Season 3 Quints/Unicron origin) as well being heavily influenced by the characters portrayed. This of course does not make the G1 cartoon redundant either as mythos from it have also been carried over and adapted throughout the G1 story such as Vector Sigma, Quints and the Matrix (as a solid object rather than a mystical program originated in the comics).

At the end despite which continuity one prefers to follow or which feels like the more influential; its hard to deny that both of them belong to a greater whole which now all modern mythos are based upon.

[Me Grimlock!]

Absolutely - everyone has their own take on the TF continuity, but in terms of my personal pref, it has to be the Sunbow cartoon. No it's not perfect (lets not get started on the origin of the Constructicons...), but I never found the comics that compelling, even with Furman writing. And of course both comic and cartoon suffered from "I'm the latest addition to the toy-line and therefore am uber and undefeatable" for this week. The rollcall eps and issues were never all that great, but I found that the G1 cartoon generated a pathos that was never beaten. Case in point: the Aerialbots going back in time and meeting Megs and Orion Pax - and understanding the true nature of the decepticons. When they get back Airraid (I think...) yells out as the Cons retreat something about never letting Megatron get away. And it was the cartoon continuity that gave us the movie, and the true death of Prime (beaten in a computer game - please...) Of course they both had their genesis out of the Marvel/Sunbow work, but I know which one I read as gospel.

Which all contributes to why I'm loving All Hail Megatron - nice solid continuity, great art (both G1 in toon and comic suffered from some dire art at times), nice fan boy references, and a moment for the bad boys truly to be bad.

[griffin]

Don't be too put off by Goktimus' abruptness. We all know that you meant it as your perception and opinion. Just don't think you have to defend yourself over it, as if one person's opinion is better than another. You can say what you like about what you prefer as Gen1 (or any series), and as long as no one else tries to say you are wrong (because opinions are only subjective), people can discuss if they agree or disagree as much as they want.

[Bartrim]

Welcome to Ozformers... and thanks for creating an interesting thread to read straight up:D

[Autocon]

my understanding

the bots n cons were created by quints then primus put sparks in them and reconfigured them?:confused:

:confused:

[GoktimusPrime]

I have no idea where you got that from.

According to the G1 comics, the Transformers were created by the God Primus and possess living sparks known as life essence or Primal essence. The term "Spark" comes from Beast Wars. When Primus created Cybertron and the Transformers species, he also forged the Creation Matrix from his own life essence - and thus the Creation Matrix was capable of creating new life - much like the AllSpark Cube, but not so sensitive. The Matrix's energy-code could also be manipulated (such as when Shockwave used it to create the Constructicons) and transferred between beings (such as when Optimus Prime transferred it to the mind of Buster Witwicky).

According to the G1 cartoon, the Transformers were created by the Quintessons as slaves and soldiers which they then sold off to their clientele. The cartoon was inconsistent as to how Transformers were actually living. The episodes "Divide and Conquer" and "The Autobot Run" stated that a Transformer would die if their Laser Core were extinguished. Transformers such as the Dinobots and Constructicons were built on Earth and there didn't seem to be any reference to these Transformers being imbued with living Laser Cores (Sparks)... they just seemed to be sentient self-aware (cogito ergo sum) robots but devoid of any reference to an actual "living soul." David Wise wanted to introduce an element of more serious science fiction to Transformers and thus introduced Vector Sigma who imbued life to the Stunticons and Aerialbots (and also absorbed the spirit of Alpha Trion). Oh yeah, for some unexplained reason Starscream's laser core became a ghost. Beast Wars has since retconned an explanation for why Starscream's Spark became a phantasm but it was never originally explained in the G1 cartoon. :p

[Autocon]

thanks for that:D

see if we can try and merge these two now

god primus created cybertron then the quints came and cliamed it for themsleves (unaware that the planet was a living being). quients created tfs and this gave primus an idea create sparks to give life to these robots. victor sigma was created to enable spark transfer and imbued life to the robots

???

there are two types of constructicon, the spark varitey which was on cybertron and the ones on earth which were drones. the ones on earth were created in the likeness of the cybertronian constructicons using earth vehicles which are similar to the cybertron ones

???


i was bored.....

[GoktimusPrime]

Feel free to start a new thread in the creative section if you want to write a fan-fic about it, and/or you can also submit your fanfic to the Lexicon (http://www.transformersfanfic.com/).

[Sky Shadow]

According to the G1 cartoon, the Transformers were created by the Quintessons as slaves and soldiers which they then sold off to their clientele.

Except "some of the primitives"* and Unicron. Who were created by Primacron.

*Possibly including the animal cassettes and Sky Lynx. But not the Dinobots, Predacons, Terrorcons and Trypticon, whose origins we already know or can infer from other episodes.

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm talking about Transformers as a species rather than individuals. :p The Quintessons created the earliest generation of Transformers as slaves; said slaves revolted and went on to create successive generations of Transformers. The only Transformer from that slave generation known to have survived into G1-era was A3, aka Alpha Trion. In the comics Primus originally created 13 Transformers and gave the Matrix to Primon.

[Sky Shadow]

I'm talking about Transformers as a species rather than individuals. :p

I know; I'm saying that even though the animal cassettes and Sky Lynx are Transformers, 'Call Of The Primitives' implies that they're a different species with a different, non-Quintesson origin.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ah yes, one of countless plot inconsistencies in the G1 cartoon. Just another reason why I personally prefer the Marvel Comics as a source of G1 canon. :)

[The_Damned]

is this a welcome thread or a debate????:p

anyways welcome.