Much Ado About Pretenders

[Verno]

I'm interested in seeing these characters brought into the 21st century. The question is: How?

In all honesty, I can't see Hasbro producing non-transforming components, IE shells. But I think a clue about how they could approach it lies in the current Titans Return Titan Masters.

The Headmaster transforms from Head to Robot, and comes with an accessory of its own -- a vehicle or beast. Said vehicle or beast transforms into a weapon, but can also combine with the Headmaster to create a larger vehicle or beast. It's a marvel of engineering.

Take the example of Clobber: Grimlock's head combines with a dragon to form a little T-Rex. When the (presumably) eventual larger Grimlock body is released for this head to call home, you've essentially got a toy that's doubling-down on the T-Rex mode as both the larger toy and smaller components transform into dinosaurs.

Now, apply a similar kind of thinking to characters like the Pretender Beasts: A robot transforms into a beast which hides inside a larger version of the same beast. Catilla, for example, is a saber-tooth tiger inside a saber-tooth tiger. You're doubling-down on the same kind of beast.

The wonderful thing about the Pretender Beasts is that the originals came with accessories -- helmets and blasters that plugged into the shell. What if Hasbro took a character like Catilla, made it an organic saber-tooth tiger which had accessories plugged into it (like the original shell), that could transform into a robot and said accessories could combine and transform into a smaller saber-tooth tiger.

This does away with the potentially troublesome shells altogether.

Am I making sense?

[UltimateGalvatron]

Cool idea.

I don't like Pretenders though so I wouldn't buy them.

[Verno]

Cool idea.

I don't like Pretenders though so I wouldn't buy them.
Thanks.

It takes the Pretender characters and turns them into sort of Targetmasters. Do you like Targetmasters?

[morg176]

I always liked the pretenders line.
Admittedly, the shells were dust jackets of sorts.
I loved the whole monter approach to it.
The robots were simple with good cybertronian modes.

Ideally, smaller pretender monster type shells that just stored the titan/head master figure would be cool and would keep the cost down

Imagine every mythical/ weird creature/ folk lore/ dragon was a titan master in a little pretender shell :D

[BigTransformerTrev]

I'm interested in seeing these characters brought into the 21st century.

Som of the characters like Bludgeon and Skullgrin have gotten toys this century but admittedly not as Pretenders.

Alice from ROTF in 2009 was a Pretender - was gutted she didn't get a toy.

I think this years TFSS 5.0 has a Pretender in it.


Personally I only ever got Roadgrabber and Grinlock from the G1 toys (and even then only Grim because I'm a big fan) as I've never really liked organic looking TFs

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

The wonderful thing about the Pretender Beasts is that the originals came with accessories -- helmets and blasters that plugged into the shell. What if Hasbro took a character like Catilla, made it an organic saber-tooth tiger which had accessories plugged into it (like the original shell), that could transform into a robot and said accessories could combine and transform into a smaller saber-tooth tiger.

This does away with the potentially troublesome shells altogether.

Am I making sense?
I7m a bit confused with this idea. So, you have BW type robot with a target master buddy or something?

I'd like pretenders to come back somehow, I've always liked the look of them as space adventurers and rather liked US marvel comic's look of the Autobot pretenders in their shells.

One way it could be done is give them organic looking helmets and armour that makes them more organic looking, or monster looking for the Deceps and the armour becomes accessories/weapons etc.

So imagine, a toy like TR Blurr, but you plug bits on him to hide his robot look and the bits can make an artillery cannon or something like that when not ebing used as armour. ,Personally I'd like to see the toy keep it's pose-i-ness too.

Overall, I think the pretender concept is a bit hard to engineer well, and will also be expensive to make, so I'm not going to hold my breath. Or we'll end up with basic one step changers shoved into a static shell...

[Verno]

I7m a bit confused with this idea. So, you have BW type robot with a target master buddy or something?
Essentially, yes. Let me see if I can explain this better with some pics.

Here's Carnivac from the recent Sins of the Wreckers miniseries:

http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/6/62/Sotw3_Carnivac_and_Stakeout.jpg

He's organic, like a Season 1 Beast Wars character.

Looking at the shell of his original toy:

http://toys.tfw2005.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2009/12/Carnivac-BM_1262019211.jpg

It too was organic.

So what I'm suggesting is a toy that would transform from the organic beast to a robot, much like the original Wolfang toy. Those accessories that are mounted on Carnivac's back in beast mode would transform and combine into a small robotic wolf, referencing Carnivac's original inner wolf. A Targetmaster partner for lack of a better term.

I still don't think I'm explaining this very well :p

[CHILENO20]

I confused :confused::confused::confused:

[Verno]

I confused :confused::confused::confused:
Haha, let me try it another way.

Take the original Beast Wars Wolfang toy:

http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/thumb/0/0e/BW-toy_WolfangMaximal.jpg/800px-BW-toy_WolfangMaximal.jpg

It transforms from organic beast to robot, right?

On its beast-mode back, attach transformable accessories that look like the ones on the original Carnivac Pretender shell. So now you've got an organic wolf with guns on its back. Still with me?

The accessories then combine together to create a small separate robitic wolf that pays reference to the smaller robotic wolf that was inside the original Carnivac pretender shell.

Any clearer? More confused than ever? :p

[SMHFConvoy]

The armor would combine into a partsforming robo companion? Like B-Mogs?

[Verno]

The armor would combine into a partsforming robo companion? Like B-Mogs?
I'm not sure what 'B-Mogs' is, but I'm going to say yes.

[SMHFConvoy]

B-mogs (http://bmogtoys.com/news/)

[Verno]

B-mogs (http://bmogtoys.com/news/)
Ah. Then most definitely yes. That is indeed what I had in mind.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

So, essentially a Beast wars character with a Tm accessory then?

Pardon me for saying, but isn't that just a rehash of Beast Wars? With extra bits:p:D?

[Verno]

So, essentially a Beast wars character with a Tm accessory then?

Pardon me for saying, but isn't that just a rehash of Beast Wars? With extra bits:p:D?
Catilla, Carnivac, Chainclaw and Snarler aren't Beast Wars characters. They do have organic outer shells however.

[GoktimusPrime]

Catilla, Carnivac, Chainclaw and Snarler aren't Beast Wars characters. They do have organic outer shells however.
^True. Those are all Middle G1 characters.

[Demonac]

I always thought of Pretenders as being part of the evolution of transforrmers.
At first TF's can only transform into mechanical beasts, with no organic material.
Pretender technology allows them to hide inside a non transforming organic 'shell'.
BW is the final step, integrating the organic mode into the transformation.

What you seem to be describing Verno, are Pretender era characters using BW era transformations (with targetmasters).

[Zommael]

I always thought of Pretenders as being part of the evolution of transforrmers.
At first TF's can only transform into mechanical beasts, with no organic material.
Pretender technology allows them to hide inside a non transforming organic 'shell'.
BW is the final step, integrating the organic mode into the transformation.

What you seem to be describing Verno, are Pretender era characters using BW era transformations (with targetmasters).

I agree. You have mostly mechanical modes in early G1, followed by the introduction of the Dinobots. You then have further development of mechanical beasts throughout G1, seeming to evolve from the Dinobots as opposed to Soundwave's cassettes, which transform into beast-like robots rather than having a beast alt mode. Then the Headmasters actually integrate organics as well as the Decepticon types having sophisticated beast modes. Pretenders are the final evolutionary step before true Beasts, which then evolve into the techno-organics at the end of Beast Machines.

[GoktimusPrime]

I always thought of Pretenders as being part of the evolution of transforrmers.
At first TF's can only transform into mechanical beasts, with no organic material.
Pretender technology allows them to hide inside a non transforming organic 'shell'.
BW is the final step, integrating the organic mode into the transformation.
That's actually a fairly accurate description of how the Transformers evolved as toys. Initially they only produced Transformers with mechanical bestial modes (e.g. Dinobots, bestial cassette robots, Predacons etc.). Hasbro later actually wanted to create Transformers that could transform into humans. Takara felt that they wouldn't be able to achieve this, and thus pitched a counter-proposal into creating vehicular Transformers that could fit inside human shells, and somewhere along the line it was decided that only Autobots would be humans and the Decepticons would be monsters. Deck then humans out in Warhammer/Starcraft-esque space marine armour, and presto - Pretendaaah! :D

And of course, Transformers engineering had progressed significantly enough during the mid to late G2 years that HasTak saw that they were finally able to create proper bestial-moded Transformers, Beast Wars was born and set a whole new standard for Transformers ever since. :)

[Verno]

What you seem to be describing Verno, are Pretender era characters using BW era transformations (with targetmasters).
That sums it up perfectly, yeah.

[GoktimusPrime]

I think it'd be an interesting idea and it would hearken back to what Hasbro had originally intended for Pretenders to be back in 1988. IDW's Carnivac is a good example of this. Even Bayformers gave us something like this with Alice (although the completely kibble-free robot mode was utter rubbish). I wouldn't mind seeing G1 Pretender characters revisited where they actually transform into their Pretender shells as alt modes. The Pretender Beasts would probably be the most marketable ones to start off with, because they'd essentially be BW TFs with G1 robot modes (like Carnivac). The more adventurous options would be other Pretenders. Would people want to buy robots that transform into humans or monsters? Of course we would, but would the general market be able to absorb it? I'm just not sure if it's commercially viable.

The Pretender Beasts should be doable though - if toys like Generations Waspinator, Rhinox and BW MPs can sell, then I see no reason why a Generations Carnivac, Catilla, Chainclaw or Snarler wouldn't sell. :) Also, their original alt modes were just robotic versions of their outer shells. Doing non-Pretender Beasts as modern toys might be trickier because what about their original alt modes? e.g. Generations Cloudburst might transform from robot to Femaxian-Queen attracting human, but what about his jet mode? Bludgeon may transform from a robot to patriotically Dutch samurai Skeletor, but what about his tank mode? Previous modern toy versions of Pretenders have just focused on a vehicular alt mode with the robot mode being inspired by the Pretender shell or original robot mode, but never both. Movieverse Bludgeon is a good example of this - the first toy, a redeco of Wreckage, was a homage to Bludgeon's G1 robot mode. The Pretender shell form was completely ignored. The Revenge of the Fallen figure had a tank mode inspired by Bludgeon's G1 alt mode, but the robot mode was purely based on the Pretender shell. The original robot mode was completely ignored. BotCon 2015's Oilmaster's robots are redecos of Generations Swerve and Flanker with a new Pretender shell - the robots do not transform into the shell.

What I'm saying is that we've never seen a G1 Pretender inspired contemporary Transformer that could triple-change between robot, alt mode and shell. I don't know if this is even possible, at least not without invariably compromising the toy's design/engineering. The closest we got was arguably Thunderwing (and thus by extension Black Shadow) - the robot was based on the shell which could transform into the shell's alt mode, but it also came with a detachable drone which resembled the original robot's alt mode (but doesn't transform into a small robot).

[Verno]

Groundbreaker, Sky High and Splashdown have bestial motifs on their Pretender shell chests -- a tiger, bird and shark respectively. This could be played upon, so their outer bodies are organic beasts like Carnivac and Catilla.

[GoktimusPrime]

That's just their armour, not the actual shell itself. Carnivac is an armoured wolf, but the kind of Transformer your talking about would have him transform into a regular wolf without the additional armaments attached. If we were to follow the same line with human-shelled Pretenders, then I think that they should have realistic looking human alt modes, with or without the armour. I guess being armoured space marines (motif or not) would be more marketable than wearing civvies, but I would personally like to see them wearing just regular clothes. This might work better for the Japanese market where the Autobot Pretenders frequently moved about in normal human clothing. You could even gang mould Cloudburst/Phoenix with two variant alt mode heads - one with a G1 toy-accurate hair cut (http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/d/de/Cloudburst_phoenix_toy.jpg), which was also seen in the G1 comics (http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/0/01/Nomates.jpg), and the other with the wannabe-Wolverine haircut, as seen in the Masterforce animated series (http://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/d/dc/Phoenix_suiton.jpg). Hasbro's Landmine could be a brunette while TakaraTOMY's Lander would be blonde with glasses sculpted on. The sculpting for Waverider/Diver's hair would be the same for both markets, but blonde for Hasbro and brunette for TakaraTOMY.

Doing the second wave Pretenders (Groundbreaker, Sky High, Splashdown, Iguanus, Bugly & Finback) would be tricky as those figures were never released in Japan, so it would be entirely up to Hasbro to want to release those figures. Not impossible though, after all, Bludgeon and Thunderwing were also never released in Japan and we've had contemporary versions of those characters (and TakaraTOMY even released them for their market!). And Hasbro did release Generations Black Shadow for their markets (albeit not here). The Pretender Beasts would also be a risk as they're also Hasbro-exclusive characters.

But yeah, I don't think that the human-Pretenders should be compromised by having their shell modes becoming bestial. I think that if we are to have new Pretender Transformer where the alt modes are based on the shells, then do it properly or not at all. Having said that, making them transform from a humanoid robot to a humanoid human would provide significant challenges. It might be easier to stick with updating the inner robot and forget the shell (similar to what happened with the first Movieverse Bludgeon). I wouldn't want say Splashdown to transform into a robotic shark though. Even though his Pretender shell armour had a shark motif, that was never any of his modes. Bludgeon's Pretender shell has a skull motif, but I wouldn't want to see a Bludgeon toy transform into a giant skull (http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d6/RID_MegatronMegabolt_toy.jpg). :o

[Verno]

That's just their armour, not the actual shell itself. Carnivac is an armoured wolf, but the kind of Transformer your talking about would have him transform into a regular wolf without the additional armaments attached.
You may have missed it but I did mention that the Pretender Beasts would come with (for lack of a better word) Targetmaster partners that form pieces reminiscent of his armor which attach to the beast-mode, thus giving an organic Carnivac more of a likeness to his original toy.

[Demonac]

Wasn't having a shell in which to hide the transformer the whole point of pretenders?
Otherwise, we seem to be heading into animorph, or Star Wars Transformers territory.

[UltimateGalvatron]

After much discussion this idea is starting to sound worse to me.

I'd rather the Pretenders retained having their original robot and vehicle modes and still came with a seperate shell, except have both the inner robot and the shell come with modern articulation.

I don't want them to basically just become slightly different Beast Wars Transformers with Titans Return slapped on to fit it in to Prime Wars.

[GoktimusPrime]

Wasn't having a shell in which to hide the transformer the whole point of pretenders?
Otherwise, we seem to be heading into animorph, or Star Wars Transformers territory.
That became the idea of Pretenders.

I imagine the discussion between Hasbro and Takara to have gone down something like this...
Hasbro: "Let's make Transformers that transform into people!"
Takara: "That is literally the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Oh sorry, I mean, that sounds great, but it's not feasible. How about we just regular vehicular Transformers but we can stick them inside human-like shells?"
Hasbro: "Okay, do that!"
:p

I can't remember if the Pretenders were exactly shelf warmers, but they definitely didn't fly off shelves either. They were plentiful and easy to find everywhere (unlike say, Wave 2 Titans Return Deluxes which appear to be scarcer than hen's teeth, even in Japan).


After much discussion this idea is starting to sound worse to me.

I'd rather the Pretenders retained having their original robot and vehicle modes and still came with a seperate shell, except have both the inner robot and the shell come with modern articulation.

I don't want them to basically just become slightly different Beast Wars Transformers with Titans Return slapped on to fit it in to Prime Wars.
^Agreed.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Would people want to buy robots that transform into humans? Of course we would

I wouldn't - I find the concept quite boring. Give me giant robots that turn into tanks and jets and trains and space cruisers! A robot that turns into a guy that looks like he serves burgers or cuts hair - dull as dishwater. Frag all playability compared to a robot that turns into a sports car or helicopter too.

That said, I would have bought an ROTF 'Alice' figure if they had made one :p:o

[Paulbot]

Wasn't having a shell in which to hide the transformer the whole point of pretenders?
Otherwise, we seem to be heading into animorph, or Star Wars Transformers territory.

I had the same thought. When you start talking about Transformers turning into humans, all I can picture are Animoprhs! Sure toy technology has come along and I guess Marvel crossovers would be closer to what we'd see today.

ROTF Bludgeon, Generations Thunderwing, Skullgrin were all along the line of what I'd want to see for Pretenders, have a robot mode that's inspired by the shell and a vehicle mode based on the inner robot. Landmine, Cloudburst, Waverider would all work this way for me.

But the other way around for the Pretender Beasts and Pretender Monsters would be fine. Maybe some like Iquanus and Bugly turning from robots to beasts too.

The idea of a weapon/armour/partner makes me think of the MiniCons from Power Core Combiners.

[Verno]

The idea of a weapon/armour/partner makes me think of the MiniCons from Power Core Combiners.
Not Targetmasters or Powermasters?

[Paulbot]

Not Targetmasters or Powermasters?

Those to a degree, but in the way described above, the PCC Minicons doing all three roles of robot/weapon/armour seem the closest comparison and something that has been 'tested' recently (just like PCC in general was a test of combiners in its way).

[tinyJazz]

The idea of a weapon/armour/partner makes me think of the MiniCons from Power Core Combiners.


Not Targetmasters or Powermasters?

Reminds me of the recent RID minicons. If you collected all of waves 1 and 2, you could use bits of their armour to make a lovely rainbow Lion (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mini-Con_armor_lion) and Shark (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Mini-Con_armor_shark).

[Verno]

Those to a degree, but in the way described above, the PCC Minicons doing all three roles of robot/weapon/armour seem the closest comparison and something that has been 'tested' recently (just like PCC in general was a test of combiners in its way).
Ah, fair enough then. Cheers for the info.


Reminds me of the recent RID minicons. If you collected all of waves 1 and 2, you could use bits of their armour to make a lovely rainbow Lion and Shark.
I hadn't come across those before. They're very interesting. Thanks.