Possibility of eBay being no longer available to Australia

[FatalityPitt]

Basically, there's talk about eBay geo-blocking Australia because of proposed changes to GST to protect local retailers (Harvey Norman, etc). The articles below might explain this better than I can.

Seibertron: https://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/ebay-to-geoblock-australia/37826/
Yahoo!: https://au.finance.yahoo.com/news/aussie-may-banned-ebay-dark-side-internet-055331074.html

My first thoughts; eBay is the first place I go if I want Takara Transformers (Legends, Masterpieces, etc), original G1 toys/parts, and anything else I can't find on retail. Without eBay, my options are severely limited. Also, instead of waiting for my birthday in August, I might need to buy that LG32 Chromedome I've been eyeing, before July if this geo-block is confirmed (which would be the worse case scenario)..

Just thought I'd share, and see what others think. Cheers.

[FatalityPitt]

Ok, I just read into it a bit more. We'll still have access to eBay.com.au where we can buy/sell locally, but we might get blocked from buying from overseas sellers... Eh, it'd still suck.

[hYpNoS]

That would suck massively, sure it'd limit the amount of ko's I might accidentally buy from ebay but there are so many things we simply cannot access in this country (from a collectors perspective), and THEN there is the cost.

On the flip side, Australians are certainly gonna be getting more money out of us...not that I'm ever gonna step foot into Harvey Norman ever again :mad:

[CHILENO20]

Harvey is a sook. I can understand about the whole "buying locally", absolutely. But you are still limiting the given right we have to purchase overseas. From that stand point, its wrong! :mad::mad::mad:

[DarkHyren]

eBay is only doing this so that they don't have to pay the AU government tax for items other people sold.
Which is fair enough, the only other option eBay would have is to charge foreign sellers a tax if they sold to Aussies, which we know would never be acceptable, most of the US eBay stores don't even like posting overseas and over charge us on postage so a seller fee imposed on those that sell to Aussies wouldn't go over well.

Thing is this move isn't about buying locally or keeping money in Australia, it's about Gerry Harvey living in the past and thinking he can keep excessively charging. He hates the fact that we can get things cheaper elsewhere but rather then lift his game and stop ripping us off he's instead chucked a tanty and pressured the government into this draconian scheme thinking that we'll just turn around and buy from him.

Jokes on him though because even if he stops us buying from overseas (which he cant, we'll just need to resort to shipping forwarders and VPNs like we used to) most of us STILL wouldnt buy from Hardly Normal as we can get cheaper items then his from other local retailers. Or what, will he next try to get rid of Kmart, JB Hi-Fi and other retailers that charge less for the same items?

Also I posted about this topic HERE (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=23425&page=4) earlier as it's related, so if you want more info might be worthwhile checking that thread

[DELTAprime]

How on Earth do they expect to enforce this? If you block sites at the ISP level then there's VPNs. If you have Customs enforce it, well good luck getting the already under performing Customs to do anything.

[Handsprime]

Quick question, does this ban only new stuff? Or used stuff as well?

Because if it bans everything, it'll have a negative impact on Australia as there are many things you simply can't find in Australia, but easily on eBay.

[1AZRAEL1]

So far as we can tell, it's a blanket. So, everything

[DaptoDog]

Just a negotiating tactic. If they really did this they would be cutting off their nose to spite their face. They do $5b of sales in Australia, a good proportion would be purchases from offshore sellers.

[Paulbot]

How does eBay work with VAT or US state sales taxes? Surely these things are built in to the system somehow.

[janda the red]

this would suck big time if it went through.... although there's always a way to get around it.

i'd be getting my overseas buddies to buy all my vintage stuff for me and ship over "gifts"

[Chevron Action Flash]

This is poor, lazy policy from the Lib govt. This runs counter to their whole matra about individual empowerment, the power of the marketplace, free market, etc. They need to remember that they're NOT the ALP and taxing everything is not the way to build a viable economy. I suspect that if this proposed policy gets more airspace, the govt will suffer a huge backlash. EBay is a tool which many use as a means to providing an income, its not just a fun place for collectors and people needing used furniture.

This dumb policy will just encourage users to find a workaround and drive transactions further underground. Idiots.

[kovert]

"There has never been a more exciting time to be alive." - Malcolm Turnbull.

[Trent]

It'd actually be really easy for eBay to solve. They'd just have to charge a surcharge at checkout on any items Aussies buy from an overseas seller. Seller still gets his money, buyer pays GST, no foreign enforcement necessary.

Simple.

[reillyd]

Harvey is a sook. I can understand about the whole "buying locally", absolutely. But you are still limiting the given right we have to purchase overseas. From that stand point, its wrong! :mad::mad::mad:

Harvey doesn't like competition, and if you've ever tried ecommerce sites of local retailers, you see they have reduced product ranges. I would buy local (even pay more) if they had the stock I want

[FatalityPitt]

Also I posted about this topic HERE (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=23425&page=4) earlier as it's related, so if you want more info might be worthwhile checking that thread

Ah sorry, I didn't notice this was mentioned in another thread. I would have commented there instead.

If the proposed laws go through, and eBay end up geo-blocking us; it'd wouldn't just be outrageously stupid, but it won't achieve anything for anyone.

I'm not sure about everyone else, but I'd only buy stuff from eBay if I can't find them locally, like action figures and novelty items. Such items aren't mainstream, nor are they produced in Australia (they're rarely available here). The businesses this GST change is trying to protect, people like Harvey Norman etc, complain about overseas competitors stealing business from them - BUT there is no competition! These guys (i.e. Harvey Norman) don't sell action figures or the stuff I usually get from eBay! They're effectively throwing the baby out with the bath water. Also, Harvey Norman sells furniture and white goods'; other bricks and mortar stores sell those too. Heck, I even bought my TV from Aldi!

I also hope eBay isn't totally serious about this geo-block. If it does happen, I might need to learn how to order from places like RobotKingdom.com.

[CHILENO20]

I would buy local (even pay more) if they had the stock I want

Yep, totally agree

[CBratron]

I wouldn't miss the scalping and shipping but it means I'd have to be more vigilant in picking up what I want when it's available. No checking eBay afterwards if we run out of stock here.

[SMHFConvoy]

This is all flaring up because amazon.com is opening up here at the end of the year, Gerry's looking to stop this happening.

So much for the free market that neo liberalism promises :rolleyes:

[Raider]

It'd actually be really easy for eBay to solve. They'd just have to charge a surcharge at checkout on any items Aussies buy from an overseas seller. Seller still gets his money, buyer pays GST, no foreign enforcement necessary.

Simple.

Yes but who is the aussie paying the GST to? The Seller or eBay? eBay doesn't want to be responsible for remitting GST. The adminisitrative burden would be huge and there is next to no benefit for them. The seller almost certainly won't remit as they are in another country. I think this is the big issue.

[Chevron Action Flash]

It'd actually be really easy for eBay to solve. They'd just have to charge a surcharge at checkout on any items Aussies buy from an overseas seller. Seller still gets his money, buyer pays GST, no foreign enforcement necessary.

Simple.

But that's eBay's gripe: they don't want to be tax collectors. And why should they? As someone else mentioned, the way to do this, if indeed it must be done, is to charge the buyer GST via the logistics company, be it Aus Post or whatever.

[DarkHyren]

But that's eBay's gripe: they don't want to be tax collectors. And why should they? As someone else mentioned, the way to do this, if indeed it must be done, is to charge the buyer GST via the logistics company, be it Aus Post or whatever.Which is also exactly what eBay, Amazon and other overseas online retailers have suggested.
Auspost and customs already have part of the infrastructure in place in the form of collections from individuals that order over $1,000 in a single shipment so it would be a lot easier to just expand that system.
Problem there is though that the government would need to spend more money and they dont want to do that, they want companies in other countries to do their tax collecting for them for free, which is another reason eBay doesnt want to work with this scam (because let's face it, it is a scam)

[G1Optimal]

But that's eBay's gripe: they don't want to be tax collectors. And why should they? As someone else mentioned, the way to do this, if indeed it must be done, is to charge the buyer GST via the logistics company, be it Aus Post or whatever.


Why not be collected by the services you use to pay for the items (credit card,paypal,money order, bank etc..) as they already charge us fees anyway whats an extra 10%.

[Ploughmans Lunch]

Why not be collected by the services you use to pay for the items (credit card,paypal,money order, bank etc..) as they already charge us fees anyway whats an extra 10%.

Like online retailers/services, they don't want to act as a tax collector, nor should they (by their logic).

[Jetfire in the sky]

This debate has been going on for some time and I'm sure BTT will have all the details and rightfully so being a rural consumer where not all items are available locally; heck I think any non-capital city user in Oz could argue against this (I will do pro-bono work for a class action if anyone is interested :D:p)
Even the higher than $1000 import GST was debated at length but passed and imho rightfully so.
I have been following this closely and when I was a potential importer below $1000 on a regular basis this was very important to me, now that I am not that person but still a collector of high end items this continues to be an issue.

The basic reason for the Government not introducing an Act where anything that comes through International post being charged GST is very simple, the cost to administer this outweighs any profit (GST) gained. Yes Ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls this is all about profit.
Charging companies like ebay on imported items because they know they have actual evidence they are coming from an overseas source is a much more profitable exercise and puts ALL the admin on them, hence $$$ for the Government.
(On a side note I hate that ebay, Apple, Google etc don't pay their fair share of taxes in Oz when they should)
GST is a state distributed tax which I can only surmise that it would be divided accordingly amongst the end users and perhaps using ebay's end addresses to work this out, but ebay still has to provide the distribution information. To be honest this is out of my knowledge and pay grade. ;)

I can't blame ebay if they choose to geo-block Aussies from overseas ebay, it makes economic sense, they are getting the burden of having to work out the aforementioned. Three letters VPN.

My five cents.

[djanscak]

You'd probably need to use freight forwarders and overseas credit cards as well as a VPN if ebay do it properly.

[DarkHyren]

I think Paypal will still work fine, so long as it is linked to a US address it doesnt seem to matter where the bank is located, which is reasonable as plenty of people do travel a lot but have their main bank account in their home country.
Heck I've even used an AU CC on Amazon with a US address and there's been no issues, so worst comes to worst we should only need to use shipping forwarders and VPNs.
My main gripe though is that we shouldnt need to, it's a pointless tax that's only purpose is to try and make old Gerry and friends happy.
If the AU government really wanted to make/save money there are plenty of ways they could do it without harming the Aussie people, like ceasing unnecessary foreign aid to countries that we honestly shouldnt be helping, but that's a topic for another time and place...

[hYpNoS]

Quick note guys who are spewing VPN VPN VPN

...the government doesn't like that too, that too is also in the firing line DESPITE legitimate business needing the use of it, screw it I got poor friends in the US, I'll just pay them a wage to get my plastic crack.


This is all flaring up because amazon.com is opening up here at the end of the year, Gerry's looking to stop this happening.

So much for the free market that neo liberalism promises :rolleyes:

I forgot about aussie amazon.

...will we finally get easier access to those american specials or is it just another ebay we're looking at, while I can use amazon as it is now I just want cheaper shipping and access to ALL of their goods on offer.

[kovert]

Has the bill been passed? If not, perhaps writing to your Federal Members of Parliament (MPs) might help. MPs represent their constituents. If we say nothing as constituents, they will assume we are fine with it.

[BigTransformerTrev]

This debate has been going on for some time and I'm sure BTT will have all the details and rightfully so being a rural consumer where not all items are available locally; heck I think any non-capital city user in Oz could argue against this

I appreciate the faith shown in me, but I don't really have any further information than has already been supplied by other users :):o

All I know is what has been posted by eBay exec's in a few different places:


What is confusing about the situation is that under Australian laws, a business with an annual turnover of $75,000 MUST register for GST. But, as Jooman Park, eBay’s vice president and managing director for Australia and New Zealand points out, "This is a fundamental misunderstanding of the marketplace: eBay is not a seller, eBay does not own the goods, does not handle payments and it does not distribute anything. eBay is a third-party online marketplace that simply connects buyers and sellers."

This in itself creates a challenge. How does the Australian Government plan to enforce this? While it's one thing to bring legal pressure to big companies like Amazon, how do they plan to force smaller online retailers like BigBadToyStore to register and collect taxes for them?

Jooman Park proposed a much simpler solution. "A simpler alternative for an island nation is to work with the logistics companies. All parcels arrive at a small number of Customs points, via a small number of international logistics companies, one of which is government-owned.

These companies can require buyers to declare whether a good is new and to nominate a value of the good as part of the pricing of parcel delivery to Australia. This system does not require parcels to be stopped, other than for routine auditing.

It captures all goods, regardless of whether they were purchased via a platform or from a dot.com. It is practical and enforceable, raises genuine revenue and is fair. Unlike other proposals, this does level the playing field."

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

This is poor, lazy policy from the Lib govt. This runs counter to their whole matra about individual empowerment, the power of the marketplace, free market, etc.Business as usual, in other words.:rolleyes:
If it's any consolation, there's pretty good odds they'll quietly shelve this latest brain fart after the election - especially if it starts causing them polling pain. Chances are it's all about padding out the upcoming Budget bottom line - it's not actually supposed to work (whether it does or not is irrelevant), as long as they can use the phantom savings/revenue to make their ongoing fiscal incompetence look a little less dismal.

"Oh yeah, Amazon and eBay will totally do all the hard work for us, and it'll bring in Eleventy Billion Dollars worth of extra GST revenue!"

[MV75]

That pretty much then sums up how dumb Ebay has gotten. They are a service. If they just connected, then why are they charging a fee?

Those executives must either be extraordinarily dense, or really are that insulting to the readers intelligence.

Got An Australian ABN and fall within a certain business bracket? Then you pay tax. Those overseas retailers do not qualify for an Australian ABN.

Bottom line, Ebay already pay gst and company tax on their operations locally. If the government wants to collect gst from overseas persons, then they can charge it as it enters the country. Wait, they already do, on an amount that is deemed "worth doing it for".

Is Gerry going to pay gst for a purchase from an overseas entity? Hells not. Where's the playing field that needs levelling? Does he pay gst for locally sourced product? Yes. He then sells that item and the gst collected cancels the gst he paid. He's not out of pocket at all.

[DELTAprime]

Everyone is acting like this is the final law and it's 100% going into effect. Calm down, even if they do introduce a law to collect GST online it will be written in such a way as to not piss of retailers and therefore voters that use said retailers. (unless the government really wants to get fired at the next election)

[PROVOST]

Everyone is acting like this is the final law and it's 100% going into effect. Calm down, even if they do introduce a law to collect GST online it will be written in such a way as to not piss of retailers and therefore voters that use said retailers. (unless the government really wants to get fired at the next election)

I quite respectfully am willing to stand corrected but my understanding was that The Treasurer can introduce that into the Budget and then the budget measures have to be passed by both houses of Parliament?

So it's not quite law (even the measure is in the budget) as you say DELTAprime?

[kovert]

ATO website states it will be effective from 1 July 2017. Perhaps this will be the case if passed by the Senate. :confused:

[DarkHyren]

Looks like Amazon, Alibaba (and associated sites like AliExpress) and Etsy are joining eBay's stand against the scam

http://archive.is/fy3wm

[FatalityPitt]

Looks like Amazon, Alibaba (and associated sites like AliExpress) and Etsy are joining eBay's stand against the scam

http://archive.is/fy3wm

Ah snap, the tax changes and eBay's response was part of the reason why I was looking forward to Amazon and Alibaba setting up shop here. :(

[Gouki]

Gerry should focus more on paying his staff for the hours they work, public holiday, stock takes, Friday nights and others before he cries foul on anybody else.

[Raider]

ATO website states it will be effective from 1 July 2017. Perhaps this will be the case if passed by the Senate. :confused:

Bill is currently before the Senate with the Committee to report by 9 May 2017 (ie Budget night). This will highly likely be passed unless Labor think there is enough political capital in opposing.

I do not blame Ebay, or any other foreign retailer, for opposing legislation that would require them to withhold GST and remit on behalf of another party. Apart from the cost associated with compliance likely being extraordinary, it is ridiculous to think that this measure will actual result in enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

[PROVOST]

it is ridiculous to think that this measure will actual result in enough revenue to make it worthwhile.

In 2009,a report commissioned for the govt stated the potential revenue from this measure was outweighed by the enforcement costs.

What has changed since as far as that from then to now I am unaware of.

[DELTAprime]

In 2009,a report commissioned for the govt stated the potential revenue from this measure was outweighed by the enforcement costs.

I just hope when they do "enforce" the law they do it properly and not the way the Italian authorities enforce their law.

I've heard people from Italy saying that they can have two items arrive, both same value, and have wildly different amounts of tax to pay on them. Or have to pay so much tax on a cheaper toy and so little to pay on an expensive toy that the one that started out cheaper because more expensive in the end.

[hYpNoS]

I just hope when they do "enforce" the law they do it properly and not the way the Italian authorities enforce their law.

I've heard people from Italy saying that they can have two items arrive, both same value, and have wildly different amounts of tax to pay on them. Or have to pay so much tax on a cheaper toy and so little to pay on an expensive toy that the one that started out cheaper because more expensive in the end.

Way the government is trying to do this is make the retailers charge BEFORE its sent out rather than rely on auspost to do all that.

And both sides (retailers and auspost) have their objections

[drifand]

obvious solution, vote government out. Tell them this is bs. end story.

To me its not just ebay, there are a lot of items I can't get in Australia alone.

[Raider]

obvious solution, vote government out. Tell them this is bs. end story.

To me its not just ebay, there are a lot of items I can't get in Australia alone.

This concept is supported in principle by Labor so unless you want to put the Greens or Pauline in government, it is just a matter of time.

In any event, looks like it won't happen for at least another year.

[hYpNoS]

So I got this email from ebay


Important: “Netflix tax” effective 1 July 2017
From 1 July 2017, Goods and Services Tax (GST) will apply to fees on eBay.com.au, due to new legislation in Australia (the "Netflix Tax").

Businesses registered for GST will not be affected by this change if you register your Australian Business Number (ABN) with eBay here.

More information on this new legislation can be found here.

Regards,
The eBay Team

The more info link just brought me to the ebay.com.au homepage.

Any idea what's going on, looks like ebay changed their stratagy

[DarkHyren]

That's strange considering buyers don't pay fees, unless they are adding a fee when we checkout?
Also I thought the scam was on hold till next year or something, so who is getting the proceeds from this "tax" that ebay will charge when ebay wont be charged anything by the AU government?

[Ploughmans Lunch]

That's strange considering buyers don't pay fees, unless they are adding a fee when we checkout?
Also I thought the scam was on hold till next year or something, so who is getting the proceeds from this "tax" that ebay will charge when ebay wont be charged anything by the AU government?

Labor wanted to defer it for another year for further review, but depending on the situation they might not have the leverage to do so.

[Raider]

So I got this email from ebay



The more info link just brought me to the ebay.com.au homepage.

Any idea what's going on, looks like ebay changed their stratagy

Hmmm I haven't seen this email and calling it the Netflix Tax seems odd. Is there a link somewhere?

[DarkHyren]

Hmmm I haven't seen this email and calling it the Netflix Tax seems odd. Is there a link somewhere?I just checked and I didn't get any email either. Seems like the sort of thing everyone should get if it affects everyone and would be sent out en masse.
Doing some googling seems to suggest that this is only going to affect sellers, which makes no sense why Australian sellers would need to pay "netflix tax" since they arent generally selling either digital items or items being sent from outside into Australia.
Going to have to wait for more info

[TAAUBlaster]

I just got it this morning too. It wasn't an "email" but it was in my Ebay Messages. The "more info" link in mine took me to the ATO website.

Here I was thinking we'd dodged a bullet for another year. :(

[Maruten]

I got the email, but yeah - the link in it just took me to eBay, nothing useful.

[Raider]

I don't know about this. Seems fishy to me. The Netflix Tax is an older tax targeting intangible goods:

The key features of the ‘Netflix tax’ are as follows:

1. it will be imposed on intangible supplies such as supplies of digital content, games and software—but will also extend to consultancy and professional services performed offshore for customers in Australia
2. the liability for the GST will rest either with the supplier or with the operator of an electronic distribution service
3. GST will be imposed at a rate of 10 per cent on the value of the supply
4. at this stage it would appear that all intangible supplies will be caught, regardless of the value of the supply (currently goods valued of less than $1,000 from overseas suppliers over the internet imported by Australian consumers are not covered under the GST Act, hence it is likely there might be scope for this value of intangible supplies to be changed by regulation) and
5. only supplies made to consumers will be caught: business-to-business transactions will be exempt.

Taken from here (http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/BudgetReview201516/Digital).

I think this is separate from the issue about foreign sellers levying GST on their goods. It appears to simply be adding GST to ebay's standard fees, not impacting on the price of the goods purchased.

[hYpNoS]

For those who didn't get the email...ever sold something on ebay, because I do, perhaps that's the trigger for the email?