SPOILER THREAD - The Last Jedi

[Meister]

Figured I’d get things kicked off for anyone who went to the midnight session :)

WARNING : This thread will contain SPOILERS!, which is the last thing anyone interested in this movie needs to read, since the plot twists are what makes viewing this particular installment special. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!

All up I enjoyed it, it was different, not like your traditional Star Wars movies, which I put down to the directing, a lot of comedy thrown in (not unlike the MCU) but it nevertheless had some awesome moments in it which I wasn’t expecting (even though some bits didn’t make sense)

Will be sharing some more in depth views soon

Again if you haven’t seen it yet, you shouldn’t be reading this thread!

[VERT]

Saw it today. I loved it. I felt like i was put through an emotional wringer by the end. One of the best ever

[philby]

I felt underwhelmed. I'm super tired now so can't communicate good lol. Good stuff but I am really wondering about some of the plot points and how long they spent on stuff and also some of the jokes I thought were dumb and didn't fit.

[Paulbot]

A couple of things about the timeline of the movie felt a little off: the Resistance is very slowly getting away (for days?) and the First Order couldn't find some way to overtake? Still thinking about it a lot though since I saw it and I'm keen to watch again.

Overall I liked it how unpredictable it was. Nearly everytime I thought I knew what about to happen something unexpected would happen. There was one point for instance where I felt for sure the words "To be continued" were about to appear on screen. We would have felt cheated though if that had happened!

And we are robbed that Carrie Fisher can't be in the next movie. Filmmakers better not have any ideas of using the Rogue One video game cutscene Leia!

[Meister]

also some of the jokes I thought were dumb and didn't fit.

Yeah there was definitely a deliberate increase in jokes throughout it all, but not the traditional kind of humour you would find in star wars (felt more in the frame of the MCU to me i.e. Thor Ragnarok), which although funny, felt a bit off

[Meister]

There was one point for instance where I felt for sure the words "To be continued" were about to appear on screen. We would have felt cheated though if that had happened!

LOL I had the exact same feeling too, I thought for sure the end credits would role up at one particular point and we would be left with an epic cliff hanger, but thankfully it carried on

[Lord_Zed]

SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY.

I have mixed feelings about this film, after thinking about if for a day I came to the conclusion, I love this movies themes, but dislike the plot.

I like that this movie takes a different spin on my Star Wars expectations, I like the whole Luke, Rei, Kylo dynamic, all those actors were on top form. I feel that unlike most Star Wars films this one has quite a lot of thematic depth, particularly when it comes to ideas of heroism, and legends. The story arc sort of turns the traditional idea of the great hero on it's head for once daring against all odds heroics don't save the day. I like the duality between Kylo and Rei, one longs to escape the past and the other desires it. Also the Rei parents reveal = awesome.

I also noticed that this was the First New Star Wars not to have forced nostalgia Easter eggs in it, I mean they were there, but they weren't as in your face as they were in the two previous films.

Things I don't like, the escape from the First order plot, IE: the slowest chase in the galaxy. This made no sense to me, sure the Resistance ships were faster, but the callous Fist Order were afraid to send their fighters in without cover even though the Resistance had no fighter cover? does the First Order not have it's own bombers? Couldn't they have just done short hyperspace jump to put a capital ship in front of them? Couldn't they have called in reinforcements to trap them? Whatever happened to tractor beams?

And on the resistance side, if only one ship was tracking them couldn't they have split up, or if hyperdiriving your ship into the enemy causes so much damage why didn't they do that earlier when they had more ships? These rebels are not very smart, no wonder most got wiped out.

The other thing I dislike was the whole arc with Finn and Rose that achieve nothing, it really made the move drag in those parts.

As said above some of the humour was misplaced, not bad, just used at the wrong time.

Anyway that's my rant, I'm still stewing over what my overall thoughts are, I would kind of like to see it again, however there are parts I would like to fast forward through.



A couple of things about the timeline of the movie felt a little off: the Resistance is very slowly getting away (for days?) and the First Order couldn't find some way to overtake? Still thinking about it a lot though since I saw it and I'm keen to watch again.


That's my major gripe, admittedly Empire Strikes Back has the same flaws, Luke seems to be off for weeks while for Han and Leia it seems like a day.

My main annoyance is that with all the tech and military power the First Order has been show to have, they just decided to sit back and let them run out of fuel, I guess they only had one dreadnought.

It kind or reminded me of the 2000's Battlestar Galactica yet more silly, or perhaps the steamroller scene from Austin Powers.

[ILikeSoundwave]

My only real disappointment was that we didn't learn more of Snoke before you know what.

Although the battle with the guards right after that scene was one of my all time Star wars favorites.

[Meister]

Although the battle with the guards right after that scene was one of my all time Star wars favorites.

How f@*#ing epic was it!, contender for the best lightsaber battle ever in my opinion, one of my favourite scenes of the movie

[Meister]

SPOILERS OBVIOUSLY.

I have mixed feelings about this film, after thinking about if for a day I came to the conclusion, I love this movies themes, but dislike the plot.

I like that this movie takes a different spin on my Star Wars expectations, I like the whole Luke, Rei, Kylo dynamic, all those actors were on top form. I feel that unlike most Star Wars films this one has quite a lot of thematic depth, particularly when it comes to ideas of heroism, and legends. The story arc sort of turns the traditional idea of the great hero on it's head for once daring against all odds heroics don't save the day. I like the duality between Kylo and Rei, one longs to escape the past and the other desires it. Also the Rei parents reveal = awesome.

I also noticed that this was the First New Star Wars not to have forced nostalgia Easter eggs in it, I mean they were there, but they weren't as in your face as they were in the two previous films.

Things I don't like, the escape from the First order plot, IE: the slowest chase in the galaxy. This made no sense to me, sure the Resistance ships were faster, but the callous Fist Order were afraid to send their fighters in without cover even though the Resistance had no fighter cover? does the First Order not have it's own bombers? Couldn't they have just done short hyperspace jump to put a capital ship in front of them? Couldn't they have called in reinforcements to trap them? Whatever happened to tractor beams?

And on the resistance side, if only one ship was tracking them couldn't they have split up, or if hyperdiriving your ship into the enemy causes so much damage why didn't they do that earlier when they had more ships? These rebels are not very smart, no wonder most got wiped out.

The other thing I dislike was the whole arc with Finn and Rose that achieve nothing, it really made the move drag in those parts.

As said above some of the humour was misplaced, not bad, just used at the wrong time.

Anyway that's my rant, I'm still stewing over what my overall thoughts are, I would kind of like to see it again, however there are parts I would like to fast forward through.

That's my major gripe, admittedly Empire Strikes Back has the same flaws, Luke seems to be off for weeks while for Han and Leia it seems like a day.

My main annoyance is that with all the tech and military power the First Order has been show to have, they just decided to sit back and let them run out of fuel, I guess they only had one dreadnought.

It kind or reminded me of the 2000's Battlestar Galactica yet more silly, or perhaps the steamroller scene from Austin Powers.

Not much I can disagree with there, the countdown plot device gave an interesting non-traditional flare but is ultimately riddled with holes. Although I thoroughly enjoyed the movie, and thought the acting really was superb by the main cast, there was a lot of bits that didn't make sense to me (even if they were admittedly cool). I can give you a list right now of all my awesome! vs wtf? scenes (i.e. since you've already mentioned it the "light speed collision" was pretty awesome, but that whole "Finn and Rose mission" was wtf for me for a number of reasons) but I remain hesitant to lay it all out on the line yet seeing its only the first day its been out (I would be basically spoiling all the major parts of the entire movie)

I think what stood out the most to me was that it wasn't shot like your traditional Star Wars movie, there is a significantly noticeable difference between directing styles, particularly from The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi, especially in the combat scenes, it was quite noticeable to me right from the get go, I think that threw me off the most, not that it was bad, just different.

WARNING MAJOR SPOILER AHEAD, I'm about to drop a big one here, if you continue on from here you only have yourself to blame!

I REPEAT YOU SHOULD NOT CONTINUE READING IF YOU HAVE NOT YET SEEN THIS MOVIE!!!!

Ok so what I really did like the most was Kylo's story line, I love the fact that it is in a way Anakin's (Darth Vader) alternate universe, what would have occurred if Anakin's plan from Revenge of the Sith had come to fruition i.e. if he had defeated Obi-Wan and deposed Palpatine as he intended, becoming the Ruler of the Empire. We get to kind of experience that "what if" now with Kylo's story since Kylo succeeded where Anakin (Darth Vader) failed. I thought that was a pretty cool trajectory to go with, and totally did not see it coming. Needless to say I am super keen to see how they intend to explore this in the next installment.

Anyway, a lot more to discuss

[philby]

It says spoiler thread in the title, you don't have to give warnings like that 😁

[yoshi594]

the last encounter with luke and kylo sparked my mind to the g1 hound moment when he used the hologram of a combiner to scare off the decepticons.

The movie overall wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.

The bad bits:
============
The casino plot and codebreaker plot was too long felt underwhelming.
Phasma was disappointing yet again.
Everything about luke was disappointing.
Superman Leia...my gawd! :eek:
Rey being soo powerful with such little training! eek!
Rey parents reveal...
Snoke being wasted so fast!
Admiral Ackbar not treated like the legend he is!


The good:
=========
Kylo Ren fighting along side rey.
Poe hot headed dameron.

Even luke hated luke :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0

[SharkyMcShark]

I really enjoyed it.

I adore the one of the central messages of the film, and that of the closing shot - you don't have to be part of the genetically elite Skywalker family to become immensely powerful in the Force.

Kylo and Rey - wow. Loved their impromptu team up. Thoroughly enjoyed the scenes they shared. Neither of them has a master now, which is a bold set up. It makes me hope that JJ resists the urge to bring Hamill back for Ep9 as a ghost, because that would cheapen what we've seen here. The Star Wars lore nerd in me wanted to know who or what Snoke was but ultimately it's the same as Rey's parents - unimportant. What matters is that now neither of them has no parental figure to guide them (assuming what we've read about Leia not appearing in Ep9 is true).

Luke was brilliant. The old school nerd in me wanted to see him shake off the cobwebs and dust off his saber. This is probably why I'm not a film director, because what we got was a fantastic portrayal of a broken man trying desperately late doors to redeem himself.

I went back and forth about the Leia 'Skywalking' scene. Immediately disliked it, with hindsight love it. It suggests that the depth of connection that you have with the Force is largely independent of your training. You can be untrained and the Force can still allow you to do amazing things. For Rey that was beating Kylo in the Starkiller forest, for Anakin it was podracing and blowing up the command ship, for Luke it was the Death Star and for Leia it was her Superman routine.

The story arc with the Resistance fleet was Battlestar flavoured perfection.

Like a lot of others, I wasn't super enamoured with the Finn/Rose story. It felt like it either should have been cut, or given more content. Not super happy about how Phasma went out but then most of the hype around her was created by the marketing team - what we saw on screen was basically just a Stormtrooper captain in shiny armour.

From a technical standpoint the visual were phenomenal and there was an incredible use of sound (and an absence thereof) in a lot of the scenes.
So yeah, a very enjoyable film.

Footnote: The Star Wars lore nerd in me can't go past the fact that they did Ackbar dirty in this :(

[philby]

i think some of the issues I am having with those points SharkyMcShark is that this is the 2nd movie with some of these characters and I think they should have had more time.

In Force Awkens Phasma was just a stormtrooper captain in shiny armour who didn't really do much. Why waste an opportunity to do a little more with it the 2nd time around. Even if it is just another confrontation with Finn, have it go for more than like 5 seconds :rolleyes:

Same with Snoke and Rey, maybe it is a good and surprising and fresh cinema technique or whatever killing him and having Rey's parents be nobodies but it seems really annoying and cheap to me after laying seeds and thought provoking dialogue in the TFA.

I don't disagree with the Force being able to do what it wants and maybe help people in need etc but the execution of that idea, if thats what it is supposed to be, with Leia zooming around in space not being dead just looked really silly.

[philby]

https://i.imgur.com/H13BKEY.jpg

[Ploughmans Lunch]

Not sspeaking about anyone here, but I swear there's a swath of Star Wars fans who will only be happy if a new Star Wars movie is literally some kid who streams video games on Twitch reading out the Wookiepedia while Mark Hamill sits in the frame out of focus nodding in approval while occasionally that Darth Maul fight song from Phantom Menace plays in the background.

[shockNwave]

When the rolling intro came into view at the start it confirmed what I had suspected; that The Last Jedi will contain Empire Strikes Back easter eggs but little did I know that there'd be more than that. So here's what I can recall:

1. The opening battle is reminiscent of the Hoth evacuation.
2. Luke goes beneath that tree containing the dark side on Dagobah while Rey goes into that hole in the ground on Ahch-To.
3. Snoke's throne room/ Emperor's throne room.
3a. Snoke and the Emperor both say "Fulfill your destiny".
3b. Snoke and the Emperor both point out to Rey/Luke that all is lost and show them the plight of their friends.
4. The battle of Crait is the battle of Hoth version 2.0.

PS I find The Last Jedi better than The Force Awakens.

[SMHFConvoy]

My only real disappointment was that we didn't learn more of Snoke before you know what.

Really highlighted how bad a storyteller JJ Abrams is, his whole, "mystery box" style is just laziness and Rian Johnson proved it by 1. Disposing of Snoke and 2. The reveal about Rey's parents which could've been dealt with in The Force Awakens.

[shockNwave]

My only real disappointment was that we didn't learn more of Snoke before you know what.

In an interview in Stack (a monthly mag at JB HI-FI), Andy Serkis recently said that The Last Jedi would reveal why Snoke hates the Republic/Rebels so much and how he got his scars. I'm feeling as disappointed as you.:(

[PaddlesPrime]

I quite liked it, but it's nowhere near what some people are saying. The action scenes where good and the plot was good but quite drawn out.

The scenes of the bombers where we'll made and made it feel like a war movie. Paige, a character I went in expecting to be a pointless background character, was actually pretty cool. Vice Admiral Holdo was also an interesting character and I really like her and Poe's subplot. Superman Leia was really stupid and Ackbar dying was a bit upsetting as he has always been one of my favourites.

Snoke's ship was cool and I wish we saw more of him and Phasma. The The Finn and Rose side plot was quite boring and DJ was incredibly underwhelming however the casino scenes where very well made and the scene where Finn fights Phasma was great, even if BB-8 controlling a walker was quite silly.

The scenes on Luke's Island where ok but the scene where Rey went underground was just bizarre. It felt like something from a 90s EU/Legends comic. The part where he revealed what he tried to do to Kylo was incredibly out-of-character.

The Praetorian Guards looked really cool and they way they moved was cool but they did almost nothing. Snoke was purely wasted potential, the same as making Rey's parents nobodies.

The Defense of Crait was almost a carbon copy of the Battle of Hoth, other than the laser cannon (didn't catch what it was called). Luke's Force Clone was kind of strange and would seem out there to anyone who hadn't read some of the old comics. Rey suddenly gaining incredible Force powers was strange and out of place but continues her legacy of being incredibly skilled with little-to-no training.

Overall, it was a pretty good film but still miles off Empire Strikes Back and A New Hope. 7/10

[Omega Metro]

I’ve seen it twice now. And I like it but don’t love it. No questions seemed to have been answered though. It started by the Resistance escaping and ended with the Resistance escaping. Everything else didn’t seem to matter. Snokes Death was dissapointing.

[GoktimusPrime]

I quite liked this movie.

The main bad part for me was, as others have touched upon, the Canto Bite/Casino scene. It sort of reminds me of the Pod Race from The Phantom Menace in that while the scene is essential to the overall story of the film, it just drags on for too long and in doing so, stalls the momentum of the narrative. the Pod Race scene from TPM would've been much better if it'd only been one lap instead of three. And similarly the Canto Bite scene would have been better if it'd been about a third of its actual length. There's nothing wrong with a story slowing down for a "breather," but it shouldn't grind to a halt. After all, the Mos Eisley Cantina scene in A New Hope was a slowed down "breather" scene. But it was short. Back then Lucas knew to shorten the scene so that the pace didn't stall. This was why the scene with Jabba the Hutt meeting Han Solo at the Millennium Falcon was cut. The previous scene with Greedo already establishes that Han has a bounty on his head from Jabba. The Jabba scene is really just repeating that point unnecessarily.

What they should've done with the Canto Bite scene is cut it to make it a lot shorter, and then add those scenes back in for a later Special Edition! :D :p Fans love that kind of stuff and it gives you an excuse to re-release the film in cinemas and on DVD to make more money. Peter Jackson did the same thing with The Lord of the Rings. We didn't really need to see Eowyn flirting with Aragorn (although explaining who the Dunedain were was useful).

Having said that, I don't find it as boring as the Pod Race. I suppose because while the pace of the plot is stalled, it just isn't as repetitive as the Boonta Eve Race (inevitable since they are racing round and round on a race track :p). The scene of them riding on the back of those animals will probably be less exciting on subsequent viewings though. Gah. Racing around is fine if the plot races along with it - like in The Empire Strikes Back when Han races the Falcon through the asteroid field. That scene is intense! And this scene is certainly no where near as bad as say "that scene" from Transformers Age of Extinction. Because not only did that scene stall the narrative but it added nothing to the story. It was completely unessential. The Pod Race and the Canto Bite scenes, while too long and slow, are essential to the story (just not all of it).

Now for my really little nit-picky complaint that I'm sure no-one else will care about.
Language.
Firstly, the dropping of the A-word and the B-word. No other Star Wars movie has swearing in it. Aside from making the film less appropriate for children, as a story set in a galaxy far away with characters who aren't from Earth, it also makes no sense. Because those words in English are very historically and culturally set -- I won't bore you with a 500 word linguistic essay about it, but they are very Earth-based. I preferred it when they used insults that were more rooted in the Star Wars universe, like "poodoo" or "scruffy looking nerf herder" etc. The other point is grammar. Luke tells Artoo-Detoo to "watch" his language, which is funny as it kinda softly breaks the fourth wall and hits onto that long running joke that Artoo, with all his beeping, is just swearing all the time. But uh... he should've said "mind" your language. Because --- rrriiippp -- okay, okay, I won't rant on about the technical linguistics of it. Moving on!

Alright, so beyond the major Canto Bite thing and the language thing which probably noone else cares about... I must say that I really did enjoy The Last Jedi. There are no other main flaws with this film, and the ones that I cited are by no means deal-breakers for me. There are so many other enjoyable things that I found in this movie, so let's look at what I liked...

More originality and an unpredictable plot for me. This film took a lot of typical movie clichés and just flipped them on their heads. :D
Great acting from all cast members, and also greater gender and ethnic diversity in the cast. Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker was just brilliant.
Great visual effects, sounds and music.
The Easter Eggs didn't feel forced or hammy. Like when Artoo shows Luke Leia's old "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi" recording. Great homage but it also contributed to the story. It's not like say Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba at Jehda in Rogue One which was nothing more than an Easter Egg for fans but did nothing else.
The throne room battle was FANTASTIC! :D Reminds me of when Optimus Prime and Megatron teamed up within Unicron in Transformers Prime.
The Ren vs Skywalker fight was also really cool. Loved how Luke didn't leave any footprints on the salt-covered ground. I thought that it was because Luke was using the Force to make himself really light footed for better agility (in The Lord of the Rings Elves naturally have this ability - this is most noticeable in the scene where the Fellowship are walking through a blizzard and Legolas is the only one who leaves no footprints and does not sink into the snow. Everyone else is up to their waists while Legolas can gingerly step forward and look ahead). But the fact that Luke was a Force projected Danger Room illusion came as yet another surprise to me. :D #sniktsnikt
So cool seeing Leia finally using a Force power to save herself. She was essentially doing an extended Force Pull to pull herself back inside the ship. And it is possible for someone to survive in a vacuum for that length of time. Watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p1ndUL-yRY) if you want to learn about the science behind it. As for why she even has any Force powers, this should be obvious. Obviously she is also the daughter of Anakin Skywalker just like Luke. And in Return of the Jedi Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned, and Luke later tells Leia that, "In time, you'll have this power too." So it was always stated that Luke would train Leia. And in the end we see Luke connect with Leia through the Force and also physically transferred Han's dice from the Falcon (just as Kylo Ren accidentally transferred drops of water from Ahch-To) -- this level of Force connection only seems possible between powerful Force users. Speaking of which...
Further evolution of Force powers! Powerful Force users are now able to connect across great distances and even transfer matter via the Force. And this is not necessarily a new concept - previous films have established that some Force powers are only accessible at higher levels. e.g. only highly accomplished Sith Lords can project lightning. Darth Maul and Darth Vader were never able to do this (Vader most likely because he lacked sufficient organic matter to even tap into the Force at that level despite his continued progression in the Dark Side). Before Qui Gon Jinn Jedi were never able to commune beyond the grave, and it was Obi-Wan and Yoda who were taught, by Qui Gon, how to further develop this power and appear as Force ghosts. Obi-Wan was also the first Jedi to be able to become one with the Force upon death and disappear. This surprised Vader as we see him stepping on Obi-Wan's cloak to ensure that it wasn't some kind of illusion/trick. The Force isn't a stagnant thing -- it's ever evolving and growing. Users of the Force continue to learn and develop new techniques as they try to achieve their Ultimate Form. :p
This movie blurs the lines of good and evil. Rey isn't necessarily looking to be a light side user, she just wants to know what this power is and what her place is. <Insert HSC English rant about belongment> :p Kylo Ren also isn't entirely convinced about the Dark Side either. We know he's conflicted, but in this film he talks about how he wants to destroy everything. The light, the dark, the Resistance, the First Order... he wants to tear it all down. He wants to kill Snoke just as much as he wants to kill Skywalker, and ultimately succeeds in doing both. And I do wonder if Kylo also felt Luke's passing through the Force as Rey and Leia did, or did he choose who he want to communicate that feeling with. We'll find out in the next movie. What might be interesting is if this trilogy ends with neither the light or dark side winning, but rather the rise of the Grey Jedi. Those who embrace elements from both the light and dark sides and achieving a balance in the Force.
One interesting thing from the Canto Bite scene was how they showed that there are the same people gunrunning for both the Resistance and the First Order and getting filthy rich from doing so. Much like the Quintessons did between the Xetaxxans and the Lanarqans, as well as countless actual examples from real life. And people like the Code Breaker doesn't consider either side to be any better or worse than the other. His loyalty only lies with whoever is paying him. And before we criticise the Code Breaker too harshly, remember that Han Solo started off being just like this in A New Hope. He only cared about his reward. He did change at the end, and that was indeed Han's character journey. But the Code Breaker is pretty much like Han only that he hasn't gone on a journey to make him change his moral code. And heck, we know that Han even reverts back to being just a mercenary after his son fell to the Dark Side.
#maydivorcebewithyou
This film really takes a far darker tone and the good guys just can't seem to get a break here. And the film ends on a grim note with a glimmer of hope. This really reminds me of The Empire Strikes Back. This movie is essentially "The First Order Strikes Back," cos yeah... that's exactly what they did.
[list]"Why didn't the Dreadnought just destroy the diminished Resistance ships?"
The main reason would be to use it as an emotional ploy to enrage Rey in an attempt to turn her to the Dark Side of the Force. The Emperor did the same thing to Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi...
"Hold here."
"We're not going to attack?"
"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special
planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."
In this case, the Resistance has no means of escape. If they jump to hyperspace, the First Order can easily follow and then they won't be able to jump again. If they continue to sail out slowly, then they will eventually run out of fuel. Escaping in shuttles is folly because they're unarmed and unshielded. And even if they reach Helm's Deep, uh, I mean, that abandoned Rebel Base, it's a dead end for them. There's no way that the Resistance could possibly win unless some Space Wizard magically teleports in and distracts Kylo Ren while another Space Wizard lifts rocks to clear a back exit. But what are the odds of that? :p[/i]

For me this film has many more pros than cons. Not the best Star Wars movie -- the Force Awakens did have better pacing even though its story wasn't as deep and was more predictable. So while it's by no means perfect, I still regard it as a good movie. If the next Bayformers movie were to be half as good as this film...

[Meister]

More originality and an unpredictable plot for me. This film took a lot of typical movie clichés and just flipped them on their heads. :D

Im not going to lie, one of the things I really enjoyed about this film were the shock twists that we weren't expecting (i.e. Snoke being wiped out, Rey's irrelevant parents), however, now that I know all these things, will the film stand up to my original impression on a second viewing now that I know what is going to happen?, I think my second viewing will be the real test of how this installment stacks up for me. Whilst I agree the route they decided to go gave a good shock factor, was it really anything special?, or just the most laziest way to go about it?, I mean Abrams did well to set up a whole host of characters and intrigue for them, and Johnson just threw it all in the bin?, its much easier to just brush all the hype aside like Johnson did for a cheap thrill than to actually try and build on the set up, creating more intrigue and direction for these questions to sustain the intrigue for a climactic reveal or twist in the final installment. I mean personally Iif I was Abrams I would be pretty p*ssed off with episode VIII, he did all this work to build up characters and Johnson comes round and kills them all off, I mean what has he got to work with now for Episode IX?, Snoke's dead, Luke's dead, Leia is presumably dead, no mystery behind Rey, even Phasma's dead?, its really just Ren vs Rey, in terms of a trilogy, it really took the legs and wind out from under the final installment.


Great acting from all cast members, and also greater gender and ethnic diversity in the cast. Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker was just brilliant.

I agree, awesome acting from all the main cast.


Great visual effects, sounds and music.

Also agree, although some of the CGI characters weren't totally up to scratch


The Easter Eggs didn't feel forced or hammy. Like when Artoo shows Luke Leia's old "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi" recording. Great homage but it also contributed to the story. It's not like say Dr Evazan and Ponda Baba at Jehda in Rogue One which was nothing more than an Easter Egg for fans but did nothing else.

Loved that scene, it was a perfect moment for Luke and R2, and a great plot point


The throne room battle was FANTASTIC! :D Reminds me of when Optimus Prime and Megatron teamed up within Unicron in Transformers Prime.

Excellent comparison (although personally I would still rate that Optimus and Megatron co-op as the better scene, seriously it was the best thing I've seen from Transformers since the animated movie)


The Ren vs Skywalker fight was also really cool. Loved how Luke didn't leave any footprints on the salt-covered ground.

A mate of mine brought that up, I was planning on paying attention to it for my second viewing, I missed it on the first viewing


So cool seeing Leia finally using a Force power to save herself. She was essentially doing an extended Force Pull to pull herself back inside the ship. And it is possible for someone to survive in a vacuum for that length of time. Watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p1ndUL-yRY) if you want to learn about the science behind it. As for why she even has any Force powers, this should be obvious. Obviously she is also the daughter of Anakin Skywalker just like Luke. And in Return of the Jedi Yoda tells Luke to pass on what he has learned, and Luke later tells Leia that, "In time, you'll have this power too." So it was always stated that Luke would train Leia. And in the end we see Luke connect with Leia through the Force and also physically transferred Han's dice from the Falcon (just as Kylo Ren accidentally transferred drops of water from Ahch-To) -- this level of Force connection only seems possible between powerful Force users. Speaking of which...

OK so I dig the fact that they finally got to show Leia's connection with the force, and I also liked how they wished to portray it as only coming into play as a sort of subconcious survival instinct, but it really looked and felt off to me, it just didn't feel like it was executed correctly, it looked silly and out of place. I couldn't help but think WTF in my mind when I saw it, even though I understood the concept and liked the idea behind it.


Further evolution of Force powers! Powerful Force users are now able to connect across great distances and even transfer matter via the Force. And this is not necessarily a new concept - previous films have established that some Force powers are only accessible at higher levels. e.g. only highly accomplished Sith Lords can project lightning. Darth Maul and Darth Vader were never able to do this (Vader most likely because he lacked sufficient organic matter to even tap into the Force at that level despite his continued progression in the Dark Side). Before Qui Gon Jinn Jedi were never able to commune beyond the grave, and it was Obi-Wan and Yoda who were taught, by Qui Gon, how to further develop this power and appear as Force ghosts. Obi-Wan was also the first Jedi to be able to become one with the Force upon death and disappear. This surprised Vader as we see him stepping on Obi-Wan's cloak to ensure that it wasn't some kind of illusion/trick. The Force isn't a stagnant thing -- it's ever evolving and growing. Users of the Force continue to learn and develop new techniques as they try to achieve their Ultimate Form. :p

I didn't know how to feel about this cause a lot of the times, while I thought the scenes were cool (i.e. Rey and Ren's force conersations, and Lukes force projection, I was also thinking, are we saying the force can now do this?, if so, what can't we do with the force?, basically you can introduce anything, maybe Rey will be able to fly like superman in Episode IX, and shoot lasers from her eyes, and breath ice, etc..., what are the parameters here?, cause I thought I knew them


This movie blurs the lines of good and evil. Rey isn't necessarily looking to be a light side user, she just wants to know what this power is and what her place is. <Insert HSC English rant about belongment> :p Kylo Ren also isn't entirely convinced about the Dark Side either. We know he's conflicted, but in this film he talks about how he wants to destroy everything. The light, the dark, the Resistance, the First Order... he wants to tear it all down. He wants to kill Snoke just as much as he wants to kill Skywalker, and ultimately succeeds in doing both. And I do wonder if Kylo also felt Luke's passing through the Force as Rey and Leia did, or did he choose who he want to communicate that feeling with. We'll find out in the next movie. What might be interesting is if this trilogy ends with neither the light or dark side winning, but rather the rise of the Grey Jedi. Those who embrace elements from both the light and dark sides and achieving a balance in the Force.

I really thought that they would emphasize on this aspect (grey force area) in this one, that that was what the original Jedi's were trying to master, an individual's balance of both the light and dark sides, rather than focusing only on the one aspect, but it never went that way.


One interesting thing from the Canto Bite scene was how they showed that there are the same people gunrunning for both the Resistance and the First Order and getting filthy rich from doing so. Much like the Quintessons did between the Xetaxxans and the Lanarqans, as well as countless actual examples from real life. And people like the Code Breaker doesn't consider either side to be any better or worse than the other. His loyalty only lies with whoever is paying him. And before we criticise the Code Breaker too harshly, remember that Han Solo started off being just like this in A New Hope. He only cared about his reward. He did change at the end, and that was indeed Han's character journey. But the Code Breaker is pretty much like Han only that he hasn't gone on a journey to make him change his moral code. And heck, we know that Han even reverts back to being just a mercenary after his son fell to the Dark Side.

This was one of my main gripes of this scene, the introduction of the Galaxy's elite who profiteer off of the war, like did Star Wars really have to go and incorporate the whole 1% thing?, can't it just be a sci-fi fantasy?, you know like the Lord of the Rings was a medieval fantasy, can you imagine how ridiculous it would be if they tried to incorporate the 1% of mid-earths elite profiteering off of the war between the Orcs and Man, seriously there was no need for Star Wars to go there, I put that down to lazy story telling and lack of ideas.


This film really takes a far darker tone and the good guys just can't seem to get a break here. And the film ends on a grim note with a glimmer of hope. This really reminds me of The Empire Strikes Back. This movie is essentially "The First Order Strikes Back," cos yeah... that's exactly what they did.
[list]"Why didn't the Dreadnought just destroy the diminished Resistance ships?"

The only plot comparisons I see with Empire is the fact that the whole movie is about the goodies being chased by the baddies and a young Jedi in training, other than that, they are two completely different movies, no where near on the same level as each other.


The main reason would be to use it as an emotional ploy to enrage Rey in an attempt to turn her to the Dark Side of the Force. The Emperor did the same thing to Luke Skywalker in Return of the Jedi...
"Hold here."
"We're not going to attack?"
"I have my orders from the Emperor himself. He has something special
planned for them. We only need to keep them from escaping."

This is a good point you highlighted, I never considered that aspect of it, if they had emphasized the reasoning from Snoke's point of view (or made that connection verbally) then yes the whole slow chase would have made a lot more sense, but I guess they didn't want to draw a direct comparison with Return of the Jedi


For me this film has many more pros than cons. Not the best Star Wars movie -- the Force Awakens did have better pacing even though its story wasn't as deep and was more predictable. So while it's by no means perfect, I still regard it as a good movie. If the next Bayformers movie were to be half as good as this film...

Again I can not deny I really enjoyed my first experience viewing it, although I left with mixed feelings about a lot if it, I nevertheless was on the edge of my seat during a lot of the scenes with a big stupid grin on my face.

Admittedly, there are a few things that didn't sit well with me i.e. Leia's Mary Poppins, excessive cheap gags, Yoda ghost lightning (I guess you can do anything with the force these days, even when you're dead) which I am happy to overlook, but if there was anything that I would say I was actually annoyed with or didn't agree with, its Luke dying at the end, cause really, why the hell did he die?, what caused him to die?, they literally trampled and dragged his character through the mud to finally sort of bring him back for the final act, and then for no apparent reason he goes OK, I guess I'll just die now?, like wtf? it made absolutely no sense and I think they did a disservice to his character, I mean this is LUKE F SKYWALKER we are talking about here. Wouldn't it of made more sense that when he disconnected with his projection, after telling Kylo "the war is just beginning and I will not be the last jedi", after staring into the sunset with a determined look, he gets up, makes his way down to the bottom of the cliff where his X-wing is raising to the surface of the water, passes R2 saying "C'mon R2, there is much to be done" and you see them flying out towards the atmosphere where he intends to join up with the Rebels to lead the fight in against the first order in Episode IX (where we can finally see him be the Master Jedi we were all hoping for in this installment, buiding up support for the Rebels with his legendary feats such as force crushing Tie Fighters or AT-At's or even a Star Destroyer, before dying and passing the torch to Rey at some point in episode IX). But no, instead for no apparent reason he just goes, hey I think I'll just die. Look it is what it is (and I know I just elaborated on my own personal fan fantasy), but I just think they did a disservice with his character to end it like they did, especially after dragging him through the mud like they did, I just didn't see the final act as really redeeming his character enough, I think he deserved a bit more of a meaningful and heroic send off, Luke Skywalker (and the Skywalker line) deserved more.

Return of the Jedi was the perfect end for Luke and the Skywalkers. Now i just think we are left with something less.

[SharkyMcShark]

Back then Lucas knew to shorten the scene so that the pace didn't stall. This was why the scene with Jabba the Hutt meeting Han Solo at the Millennium Falcon was cut. The previous scene with Greedo already establishes that Han has a bounty on his head from Jabba. The Jabba scene is really just repeating that point unnecessarily.


Just a quick note on this point - for the pacing of A New Hope the people you should be looking to thank are Marcia Lucas, Richard Chew and Paul Hirsch. This is a great watch if you've got 19 minutes and are obsessed with Star Wars like I am (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFMyMxMYDNk). The Empire of Dreams documentary touches on this point too. The first cut of the film by Lucas was a disaster in terms of pacing.


I’ve seen it twice now. And I like it but don’t love it. No questions seemed to have been answered though. It started by the Resistance escaping and ended with the Resistance escaping. Everything else didn’t seem to matter. Snokes Death was dissapointing.

The two biggest force prodigies active in the galaxy have been left entirely without guidance or supervision. That's the most interesting point I took from the film.

(Please for the love of pie don't let JJ bring back Luke as a force ghost, it would cheapen what TLJ established)

[Autocon]

Saw it. They said our ship is bigger so its slower.. but its in space with no gravity....... how is it slower?

Overall i enjoyed the movie. Thought it was better than 7 coz that was mianly a redo of the original story.

There will always be a sith and jedi to keep the balance. If rey or ren die another will be produced to replace them, as they have replaced those before them.

[SharkyMcShark]

A few additional thoughts:

Luke

His end was fitting. Rian Johnson has confirmed in interviews in the last few days what I think the most obvious interpretation of the events was, being that Luke expires at peace after the massive exertion of projecting himself across the galaxy. He sacrificed himself to save the entire remaining Resistance, and he did so in a way that was befitting of the old Luke Skywalker - he won without fighting, just like when he confronted the Emperor and turned Anakin Skywalker back to the light side. It was a more spiritual ending to the character than if he'd just turned up in person to bite the dust in the same way.
They'll more than likely bring him back as a Force ghost. I hope that they either a) make him only appear to Kylo as a twist, or b) make him appear to Rey toward the end of Ep9. If he just came back to mentor Rey while semitransparent it would cheapen what for me was the big take away from this film - both the light and dark side prodigies are left entirely without teachers or spiritual guidance by the end of the film.
I mean that said, I still can't quite wrap my head around this whole thing being caused by him entertaining the notion of murdering Ben Solo in his sleep. That was about the only part that felt wrong to me.


Finn, Poe, Canto Bight

One of the main draw backs of episodic film making is that it becomes difficult to judge the arc of a character in one film when you know they're being set up for something bigger. The whole arc for the 'young Rebels' (Poe, Finn, Rose) in this was basically about Poe learning not to be an impulsive hothead. Poe has a desire to lead - the key scene is when they're announcing the new leader of the fleet as Holdo, and before her name is mentioned you can see him smile and begin to stand as if he expects them to put him in command. The whole gambit to Canto Bight to get the slicer which then spectacularly fails is the assault on the Dreadnaught from the start of the film writ large - the kind of action that a hothead highly skilled solider or flyboy can pull off on a small scale on their own, but isn't the kind of gambit that necessarily lends itself to successful larger scale leadership. By the end of the film, when the charge is seemingly being led by the Galaxy's most prominent Jedi Master, does Poe join the charge on an impulse? No, he realises something is up and facilitates their escape. I present you, character development. I think he'll go on to play a prominent role in Ep9 as a leader, in place of Leia.
All of which is to say that, yes the Canto Bight thing did end up being a waste of time and completely meaningless - that was the point. It failed and Poe learned something. The quote by Luke (? I think) about failure being the key to success doesn't just apply to Rey. Unfortunately that does mean to some extent that Finn and Rose were sacrificed at the altar of Poe's character development.
It occurs to me that it's likely that Holdo didn't tell Poe what her plan was because a) he'd been demoted, b) he'd just led a victorious but tactically disastrous attack on the Dreadnaught and c) the Resistance had no Starfighter corps left at this point - most of them had been wiped by Kylo torpedoing the hangar. Poe lacked a place in their makeshift chain of command and was already on the shit list of the upper echelons.




I'm seeing it again on Wednesday.

[GoktimusPrime]

RE: What are the limitations of the Force?

In the movies we see Force users, but it may be possible for them to transcend beyond that and indeed essentially become gods as Force wielders. This idea appears in the Clone Wars cartoon series where Anakin and Obi-Wan once encountered three Force wielders known as the Father, the Son and the Daughter. These beings have transcended to a state so high that they no longer have any fixed physical form. They essentially became gods, so powerful that they knew that their power had become a threat to the temporal universe. As a result they chose to withdraw from the physical realm and retreated into an isolated ethereal realm where they could exist without damaging or destroying the outside physical universe. Time itself takes on a whole different meaning in the ethereal realm too.

And yet the Force-wielders that we see here seemed to struggle maintaining balance in the Force. The Father was a wielder of the Grey Side, the Daughter was Light and the Son was Dark. So while these Force-wielders (known simply as the Ones) were Force gods, they too had not achieved true balance. Would it be possible for Rey and Kylo to both become Grey Force-wielders and ascend as beings of pure Force energy? <shrugs>

Anakin vs Force-wielders (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=groYO_51bwY)


The only plot comparisons I see with Empire is the fact that the whole movie is about the goodies being chased by the baddies and a young Jedi in training, other than that, they are two completely different movies, no where near on the same level as each other.
I was only comparing the tone, not plot or story.

[Meister]

I’ve just had my second viewing.

Without all the expectations, the hype and knowing the spoilers etc, I can now conclude that for me personally, it is a good movie. Not perfect, but not bad either. I would rate it between a 7 and 8 out of 10.

[GoktimusPrime]

There's rarely such thing as a perfect movie. Realistically the best movies are a 9/10 so a 7-8 is pretty good IMHO. :) And that's how I'd rate it too.

[Meister]

Finn, Poe, Canto Bight
[LIST]
One of the main draw backs of episodic film making is that it becomes difficult to judge the arc of a character in one film when you know they're being set up for something bigger. The whole arc for the 'young Rebels' (Poe, Finn, Rose) in this was basically about Poe learning not to be an impulsive hothead. Poe has a desire to lead - the key scene is when they're announcing the new leader of the fleet as Holdo, and before her name is mentioned you can see him smile and begin to stand as if he expects them to put him in command. The whole gambit to Canto Bight to get the slicer which then spectacularly fails is the assault on the Dreadnaught from the start of the film writ large - the kind of action that a hothead highly skilled solider or flyboy can pull off on a small scale on their own, but isn't the kind of gambit that necessarily lends itself to successful larger scale leadership. By the end of the film, when the charge is seemingly being led by the Galaxy's most prominent Jedi Master, does Poe join the charge on an impulse? No, he realises something is up and facilitates their escape. I present you, character development. I think he'll go on to play a prominent role in Ep9 as a leader, in place of Leia.
All of which is to say that, yes the Canto Bight thing did end up being a waste of time and completely meaningless - that was the point. It failed and Poe learned something. The quote by Luke (? I think) about failure being the key to success doesn't just apply to Rey. Unfortunately that does mean to some extent that Finn and Rose were sacrificed at the altar of Poe's character development.


I completely agree with this, this is actually what stood out the most on my second viewing, the whole Rebel storyline was all about Poe’s character development. He will no doubt become the leader of the Rebellion with Leia’s passing.

I must say I really disliked Holdo, or to put it more accurately, Laura Dern’s portrayal of Holdo, I think it was the weakest performance out of everyone. I also think her reaction to the first order firing on the escape pods was illogically delayed, she was already sacrificing herself, what took her so long to try and turn the ship around, it could just be brought down to the editing but there seemed to be a big gap for her reaction

[Meister]

There's rarely such thing as a perfect movie. Realistically the best movies are a 9/10 so a 7-8 is pretty good IMHO. :) And that's how I'd rate it too.

I found a lot of answers to my questions on my second viewing, there are still bits that I think could have been done a bit better and didn’t make total sense
I.e. Leia’s Mary Poppins scene, I think they should have kept her eyes closed, so that it was her feelings that directed her back rather than her visually trying to fly back, also once she ropened the bridge’s doors, technically everyone on the other side should have been sucked out into space...; also there is mention that during the space pursuit that there is only 18 hours left of fuel, 18 hours in a space pursuit isn’t really that long when you think about it, still I think it would have helped that once Rey made the decision to meet Kylo, a quick scene of a first order commander suggesting to Hux that they have a destroyer available to cut them off, with Hux replying no, Snoke has commanded that we continue the pursuit as is for now. I think that would have helped discount that main criticism; and lastly, although I still don’t agree with Luke “losing the will to live”, I think when Kylo discovered the ruse and Luke’s projection ceased, when Kylo started having his tantrum and screaming no in anger, it would have been cool to see some force lightning sparks develop around him to stamp his progression to the dark side, I think adding that element to that scene would have been fitting

[Meister]

Also have to mention it again, Mark Hamills performance really was superb, whether you agree or not on his characters story, he really gave it his all.

[SharkyMcShark]

although I still don’t agree with Luke “losing the will to live”, I think when Kylo discovered the ruse and Luke’s projection ceased, when Kylo started having his tantrum and screaming no in anger, it would have been cool to see some force lightning sparks develop around him to stamp his progression to the dark side, I think adding that element to that scene would have been fitting

He doesn't lose the will to live though. The exertion of projecting himself across the galaxy causes him to expire, and he becomes one with the Force like Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin. Rian Johnson has said as much in interviews in the last few days.

He essentially sacrifices himself to save the entire (remaining) Resistance.

[Meister]

He doesn't lose the will to live though. The exertion of projecting himself across the galaxy causes him to expire, and he becomes one with the Force like Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin. Rian Johnson has said as much in interviews in the last few days.

He essentially sacrifices himself to save the entire (remaining) Resistance.

Sorry just thought it was a hereditary thing, I guess the exertion of giving birth to twins must have also caused Padme to expire as well

[SharkyMcShark]

Sorry just thought it was a hereditary thing, I guess the exertion of giving birth to twins must have also caused Padme to expire as well

No the audience was fairly directly told that Padme was medically fine but was dying for no scientific reason.

Though from what I gather you're being obtuse.

[Meister]

No the audience was fairly directly told that Padme was medically fine but was dying for no scientific reason.

Though from what I gather you're being obtuse.

Did I miss the part where the audience was told that Luke wasn’t medically fine?, he looked fine to me, exhausted yes, but nothing medically wrong with him. If projecting yourself resulted in death, why didn’t he do it earlier?, he did come to the island to die did he not?, furthermore, why did he leave an elaborate map to his location if he didn’t want to be found and just wanted to die?

No need to take it personal, there are plot holes (like how did the rebels still control their ship when the bridge was blown up), I’m sure people have their own explanations, I just think mastering the power to project yourself is a pretty useless power if all it does is cause you to die. You are fine with it, it doesn’t sit well with me, we are both entitled to have our own opinions

But as I said, I still liked the movie

[drifand]

Split thoughts.
Almost felt like a YouTube bind together Star Wars movie.

I like the start. I don't get how stupid both are one at trying to capture and the other can't escape. That became stupider when somehow Finn and rose go on side mission and I don't see how this is even doable but I let it go. It just didn't fit including dj waste of the movie. This is in fact the worse parts of the show.

Snook dying not a surprise, I already knew 1 month ago he will die.
I also knew the reylo wasn't going to happen as there would be little left to tell.
Meaning kylo was to remain dark.

How Ben became kylo feels a bit weak. I expected more, all the talk about Luke carrying the red crystal was like who gives a damn in this movie.

Luke dying was a wasted opportunity to get different stories, training Rey or one on one with kylo.

Lots of rumours were totally off, no knights of ren storming the beach.

Poh feels like a moron in this movie, I don't know.

Holdor? Introduced to be killed was wasting time, why not kill admiral embar there instead?

The rest I am not sure about the story line. Rey is nobody is a wasted opportunity. I mean all the fan theory were quite good honestly. Gee do they know how to write?

I think jj did a better job. Hopefully he can save whatever scraps left.

I am undecided how to score it as there were good scenes and bad ones.

I felt it was a wasted opportunity for certain characters.

Let's not forget the Resistance totally F cared leia request for help on crate. Pretty much very gloomy.

Do I hate it? No

[acz83]

Is Snoke dead? Was he just a projection like Luke... if he was truly the bridge between Kyle and Rey talking through the force how could they do it at the end of the movie if he was dead?

[i_amtrunks]

Snoke was powerful as any Force user we’ve seen in the main medium (bar maybe starkiller and expanded universe books) but as is always the case in Star Wars, overconfidence leads to downfall. Jedi, Sith, light, dark, grey, it does not matter. The moment you get cocky, something bad is going to happen.
Luke losing a hand, anakin thinking he’d take out Kenobi, Windu arresting Palpatine, Snoke thinking he’d gotten his hearts desire (I guess... we have no idea who/what he was or his motivations). The only time this rule is broken is if the Falcon is involved! :D

I enjoyed this movie, I liked the ties to Empire but I love that not everything ties back to Skywalker. I hope Rey remains a nobody, that Ren remains a petulant little snot with power. Phasma was wasted, Chewbacca was wasted but I understand why. The casino scene was bloated and over cooked but the failure of the heroes was much needed as well. The stupid first order chase was another stupid over confidence failure and punishment. The scene of Holdo hyperdriving through the fleet was masterful, the sound department deserve an Oscar for it alone.

I never expected Leia to survive the bridge attack so I was flummoxed on how they use her next movie, it won’t be enough to have her leave the resistance from being heart broken or some such off screen. I expected Snoke to have more information gleaned as well as the knights of ren (Praetorian guard as the knights was my expectation) and I expected Luke to go out like Kenobi in A New Hope so I was very glad he didn’t. I am actually glad to see him go, he was always one my least liked elements of the original trilogy, the fact he was declared a Jedi master after what seemed like days of training was hilarious. The flashback temple scenes were a disappointment too in that again the knights were mentioned but never amounted to anything.

Lots to like, no movie is perfect but the cast performed admirably, the highs were sensational, the lows mere blips in the overal scheme of things. Not everything has to be tied off nice and neat, not every question needs an answer (plus that’s what the next animated series after rebels may delve into). I love that from here they could go anywhere with the story. The heroes are unsupported by all but a stablehand, the only working lightsaber is a poorly constructed spitting cross guarded one and the main villains, while still powerful have little leadership.

Personally I hope the first order splinters as it is obvious to all and sundry that between Hux and Ren, the leadership group is incompetent and imbicilic! No one would follow either of them after their numerous failures.

Also full points for puppet Frank Oz Yoda. Don’t care that he controlled lightning from beyond the grave. Just good to have the puppet crazy and insane Yoda back.

On a side note I’m peeved about the LEGO set tie ins. The bomber is amazing as a set but were mostly crap, the destroyer barely features, Snokes ship and the big gun ship were more important. The gorilla walkers barely feature and the Crait scenes not overly good in their conversion to LEGO... at least Rens tie fighter is on the mark and the training set seems decent...

[drifand]

I dont like Rey being a nobody, sorry this is poor story telling. There are several good theories and I wished this was one that the directors had taken an opportunity to PICK one.

I feel less connected to it when Kylo pushed it "you are nobody"
It felt like so how this Nobody managed to know the force.

From now on Jaku is my replacement word for Nowhere. lol

[i_amtrunks]

So all the other hundreds of Jedi before the purge were nobodies? I think someone being naturally gifted in the force is far superior than having to be related to a skywalker or other Jedi.

The force is a connection of all living things, not just things connected to skywalkers. Otherwise it’s almost like a royal family for the force and that’s just boring!

[drifand]

You dont have to agree, I am not agreeing with you, simple.

Like I said, the story feels better if she was of more importance, regardless it was going to be hidden secret that she was related to someone else, didn't have to be Skywalker. < Yoda isn't Skywalker, so is Quigon, or Obwan.

I don't like it. It just gives me the crap that oh wait Finn suddenly has the force. Oh wait Poh too. Let our powers combine. Oh give me a break.
Connected to all yes, have the power and knowledge to wield the force only selected few who are trained or had some connection to another.
General everybody have the force = mess

There is MORE story to tell if she is someone, and thats where I am at.
Right now, she is dead end.

Snoke was the same, many felt cheated, not because he died, because nobody really knows who he is or how he became the leader. Story was just cut short.

To summarize, The Force Awakens had the juice to make you ponder and is the two biggest questions in that episode.

1. Who is Rey
2. Who is Snoke

The Last Jedi > Who cares? is the answer to that episode.

Where the story is at now, there isn't actually anything pulling me to be excited about. Like who cares about who Rey is? Is nobody. Leia will die, and the only thing left is whether Rey is able to turn Kylo back to Ben. Is that exciting? Or shall we have another trip to the casino and maybe Lando will finally appear.

Did anyone felt let down about the dark pit that Rey faced was nothing too?
Gee that felt like worse than Luke facing the false darth vader.
It doesn't do much as it was calling to her and she faced it to see nothing?

Fight scene with the guards, now while everything looks good. My only take is that the two found it so hard to take them down being they both have the force and never even used it.

[i_amtrunks]

There is MORE story to tell if she is someone, and thats where I am at.
Right now, she is dead end.

Or is the story how all these unknown force users move forward in a Jedi and sith free future?

Lots of questions left at the end of the movie, where to now for the resistance? how long till Hux and Ren destroy the first order with their incompetence?, how will Phasma be wasted in the third movie? will Finn get the redemption he seeks?

Just because the original trilogy characters bar chewier and the droids are gone does not mean the story cannot move forward. The skywalker saga will end with Ben coming around to not being a tyrannical Vader wannabe or he will be ended by the new “nobody” force users bringing an end (for now) of the Jedi and sith orders.

It gives me hope for the franchise going forward that they will not be bound to the boring skywalker saga.

We all just want different things from our Star Wars stories.

[philby]

On a side note I’m peeved about the LEGO set tie ins. The bomber is amazing as a set but were mostly crap, the destroyer barely features, Snokes ship and the big gun ship were more important. The gorilla walkers barely feature and the Crait scenes not overly good in their conversion to LEGO... at least Rens tie fighter is on the mark and the training set seems decent...

That's probably a general timing and merchandising thing. Remember there was a Lego snowspeeder for the force awakens which only ended up in the background of one shot and also the black series constable zuvio who got cut completely. They only get access to concepts and design ideas not the finished movie.

[i_amtrunks]

That's probably a general timing and merchandising thing. Remember there was a Lego snowspeeder for the force awakens which only ended up in the background of one shot and also the black series constable zuvio who got cut completely. They only get access to concepts and design ideas not the finished movie.

Fully aware of that, there are rumours of an upcoming LEGO sand speeder that may have meant to been on Crait, but considering the long and profitable relationship the two companies have had, you’d think they could do better! :rolleyes:

[Meister]

Lol I came across this guy losing it on TV, what a crack up

https://youtu.be/ZQ8ir66M5XU

[Gouki]

When the rolling intro came into view at the start it confirmed what I had suspected; that The Last Jedi will contain Empire Strikes Back easter eggs but little did I know that there'd be more than that. So here's what I can recall


3. Snoke's throne room/ Emperor's throne room.
3a. Snoke and the Emperor both say "Fulfill your destiny".
3b. Snoke and the Emperor both point out to Rey/Luke that all is lost and show them the plight of their friends.

PS I find The Last Jedi better than The Force Awakens.

This is Return not Empire.

[Gouki]

When the rolling intro came into view at the start it confirmed what I had suspected; that The Last Jedi will contain Empire Strikes Back easter eggs but little did I know that there'd be more than that. So here's what I can recall


3. Snoke's throne room/ Emperor's throne room.
3a. Snoke and the Emperor both say "Fulfill your destiny".
3b. Snoke and the Emperor both point out to Rey/Luke that all is lost and show them the plight of their friends.

PS I find The Last Jedi better than The Force Awakens.

This is Return not Empire


You dont have to agree, I am not agreeing with you, simple.

Like I said, the story feels better if she was of more importance, regardless it was going to be hidden secret that she was related to someone else, didn't have to be Skywalker. < Yoda isn't Skywalker, so is Quigon, or Obwan.

I don't like it. It just gives me the crap that oh wait Finn suddenly has the force. Oh wait Poh too. Let our powers combine. Oh give me a break.
Connected to all yes, have the power and knowledge to wield the force only selected few who are trained or had some connection to another.
General everybody have the force = mess

Finn isn't suddenly Force sensitive. He can't use the Force.


here is MORE story to tell if she is someone, and thats where I am at.
Right now, she is dead end.

Are you serious? A character only has worth is they're related to a lore famous character?


To summarize, The Force Awakens had the juice to make you ponder and is the two biggest questions in that episode.

1. Who is Rey
2. Who is Snoke

The Last Jedi > Who cares? is the en used it.

Who is Rey absolutely matters. Who she is and who she will become is the driving force behind this trilogy. You're just upset her past hasn't made her super duper important by revealing she's a Kenobi or a Skywalkers or a Solo or something. Her parents don't matter. Max even says as much in the Force Awakens.

[drifand]

Finn isn't force sensitive but he is a NOBODY. :rolleyes:

I am not upset, I am just not in agreeing that she should be nobody, as nobody is everybody else.

I don't get the WHY people seem to think when I say she should not be nobody immediately means she must be some related high profile character? There are many jedi that I dont even know or think about. My point is, someone with the force should have either inherited it, and not just hey you, yes you nobody, you now know the force. "Oh yes I do!", urm no doesn't really work, well for me anyway in story telling.

Anyway, like I said, if you like it good on you, I just felt the story isn't properly done. but thats my take and my opinion. I don't see any point to be angry about it as any damage is already done, not sure what JJ does but in many ways JJ does the job better than this movie did.

Who is Darth Vader? Nobody. yah? ur no.

To me the movie isn't bad, but it isn't great either due to many plot holes.
burning the books when in the end it didn't matter because Rey stole them anyway.

After killing Snoke and at the falcon Rey still connected with Kylo. Probably Kylo hoping to catch Rey finally showering :D

Leia flying was a bit over the top.

[Autocon]

Wouldnt the ships keep going at the same rate when it runs out of fuel as it is in space? The chase would never end

[drifand]

Wouldnt the ships keep going at the same rate when it runs out of fuel as it is in space? The chase would never end

you imagine there is something called the tractor beam.

[sideswipes brother]

Is Snoke dead? Was he just a projection like Luke... if he was truly the bridge between Kyle and Rey talking through the force how could they do it at the end of the movie if he was dead?

He was split in half on screen! C,mon.....he be dead!

[shockNwave]

This is Return not Empire.

I did say "...little did I know there'd be more than that." That's a reference to Return of the Jedi.

[GoktimusPrime]

also once she ropened the bridge’s doors, technically everyone on the other side should have been sucked out into space...;
The Star Wars universe has some kind of shielding that stops this from happening. This is why the Death Star in the Original Trilogy has open hangars but things aren't sucked out. So as something that's been long established in the Star Wars canon since 1977, I'm willing to accept this.


also there is mention that during the space pursuit that there is only 18 hours left of fuel, 18 hours in a space pursuit isn’t really that long when you think about it,
I have to agree with you there. For a big ship like that carrying only 18 hours of fuel is pretty stupid. Unless something happened before and that ship wasn't fully fuelled when the pursuit started... but the movie didn't state this so the audience can only reasonably assume that it was running on a full tank rather than fumes. It's okay to have the ship running on near empty, but at least tell the audience why. Yeah... it's pretty dumb.


Sorry just thought it was a hereditary thing, I guess the exertion of giving birth to twins must have also caused Padme to expire as well
I used to laugh at this whole dying from sadness thing... until Debbie Reynolds (Carrie Fisher's mum) passed away a day after Carrie Fisher! :eek: Family members said that after Fisher passed away, Reynolds said, "I don't want to live without Carrie," and 15 minutes before Reynolds actually died she told her son, "I would like to be with Carrie again."
:eek: :eek: :eek:

So, uh... yeah... apparently you CAN die from a broken heart. :(

[acz83]

Rey’s “nobody” story doesn’t add up with what was depicted in ForceAwakens
I mean if as Kylo says she was sold on Jakku then why was she so free to scavenge for food portions and refuse to give BB8 to the fat guy who clearly was the one holding her arm when she was left on the planet? Didn’t the slaves like Anakin and his Mum have tracking chips that would blow you up if disobey or try to leave?
I think Kylo is lying about the vision he saw of Rey’s parents hoping that it would turn her... but instead it strengthened her resolve against him...

Merry Christmas!

[SharkyMcShark]

Rey’s “nobody” story doesn’t add up with what was depicted in ForceAwakens
I mean if as Kylo says she was sold on Jakku then why was she so free to scavenge for food portions and refuse to give BB8 to the fat guy who clearly was the one holding her arm when she was left on the planet? Didn’t the slaves like Anakin and his Mum have tracking chips that would blow you up if disobey or try to leave?
I think Kylo is lying about the vision he saw of Rey’s parents hoping that it would turn her... but instead it strengthened her resolve against him...

Merry Christmas!

Unkar Plutt was clearly shown in TFA as being in charge of the community where Rey was left.

Rey is not ever shown as a slave. To the best of my knowledge she's literally described everywhere as a scavenger.

[Gouki]

Rey’s “nobody” story doesn’t add up with what was depicted in ForceAwakens
I mean if as Kylo says she was sold on Jakku then why was she so free to scavenge for food portions and refuse to give BB8 to the fat guy who clearly was the one holding her arm when she was left on the planet? Didn’t the slaves like Anakin and his Mum have tracking chips that would blow you up if disobey or try to leave?
I think Kylo is lying about the vision he saw of Rey’s parents hoping that it would turn her... but instead it strengthened her resolve against him...

Merry Christmas!

Yeah, no. Rey isn't a slave. Nice try, she's a junk scavenger. She wasn't sold into servitude. She was simply sold.

As it stands, unless Abrams introduced a recon, Kylo Rennes 100% telling the truth as far as he and Rey are aware, hence why he she tearfully admitted it was true. This, her parents being absolutely nobodies and her lack of connection n to any famous families, was heavily hinted at with Max in Force Awakens and all but confirmed on screen in the cave reflection scene.

[acz83]

I agree she was never shown as a slave or being “Sold you off for drinking money.” More she was abandoned and her parents left in a hurry from the planet not “They're dead in a pauper's grave in the Jakku desert”. -Kylo

I say Kylo is lying and like Dooku “Joined the Dark Side, he has. Lies, deceit, creating mistrust are his ways now.” -Yoda

Then again could just be falling into JJ’s box, in a box, in a box trick and “This is not going to go the way you think” -Luke

[drifand]

After watching the movie, I tend not to over think it.
Is a basic Beauty and the beast in sci-fi.

I say Kylo isn't lying and Rey knows it. < Yes she is nobody

The next episode is either JJ turns Kylo to Ben in the end, or simply the end of any Skywalker line. As Luke is dead, I actually can't see any much more hate from Kylo and he will soon let it go as he isn't really angry with Rey or he would have killed both Snoke and Rey in the last Jedi.

Obviously if Leia has the chance to face her son, this would be flip of the coin whether Ben will turn back to light or fall into darkness.

Too early to speculate at the moment as I think JJ either starts reading feedback on Last Jedi and take on board what the fans would have love to see for the next episode or just finish the chapter.

[GoktimusPrime]

Remember that there are many different types of slavery. Anakin and Shmi Skywalker were chattel slaves, which is the typical image that many of us have of what slavery is. This is where slaves are literally treated as property to be bought and sold as commodity. The Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade which prospered in the United States until Abe Lincoln delivered Emancipation was chattel slavery.

"You're a slave?"
"I'm a person and my name is Anakin!"

The kind of slave that Rey is described as having been is a debt-bondage slave (aka bonded labour). This is where someone is working to repay a debt. It is possible that Rey was a slave for certain period of time (say a few years) until she paid off her parents debt, then her parents would have been free to come back and collect her. Only that they never did.

Abraham Lincoln was a bonded slave when he was a child. In his youth Abraham was frequently coerced into hard labour on neighbouring farms to help pay off his father's debts. It was during this time that Lincoln got a taste of slavery and learned to really, really hate it. Later when he visited plantations in the South (especially that owned by the family of Joshua Speed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Fry_Speed)) that Lincoln witnessed how chattel slaves lived, and it was shortly after that that Lincoln proclaimed that all men are created equal and vowed to abolish slavery (although it was as much a military/tactical decision as it was a humanitarian one).

Anyway, I think that Rey was more of a bonded slave rather than a chattel slave. So after the debt was repaid she was freed... to be a scavenger. :/ Chattel slaves like Shmi and Anakin Skywalker can never be freed unless their master chooses to free them, as Cliegg Lars did to Shmi. Presumably it's only when a master frees a slave that their microchip is then removed from their body. Rey didn't explode when she left Jakku, so I'm assuming that she was no longer a slave at the time (if indeed they ever bothered to chip bonded slaves). I doubt that she would've been allowed to go too far away from the borders of the Niima outpost (just as Anakin and Shmi couldn't venture far away from Mos Espa.

[griffin]

Finally saw it today.

I felt a bit bored by it... as it was pretty much a 2.5 hour chase from one planet to another planet. No epic battles, nothing really too exciting.

EP7 felt like it had too much of EP4 plot devices, while EP8 felt like it had too much of EP5 plot devices. I guess the next one will be on a forest planet somewhere, with small furry creatures defeating the First Order for the Rebellion/Resistance. :p

Having Rey not being related to anyone important could just be a lie from Ren... deception is the weapon of choice for those on the Dark Side.
But it does make sense though - the Jedi were not allowed to have relationships or kids, as it could be used against them or be a distraction. The Skywalkers were the exception, because Anakin had his marriage and kids in secret, and Leia was able to as well because there was no Jedi order left to stop her.
For generations, kids who were force sensitive were discovered and trained, not predicted based on who their parents were, or their force powers. It does make you wonder though, if force power is passed on genetically, why didn't the Jedi Order allow for reproduction, which would have made it easier to recruit those children, instead of hunting the galaxy for kids (like the kid at the end of EP8).

The space chase scene really annoyed me, as the First Order couldn't just hyper-jump a couple of destroyers ahead of the Resistance ship? Were they that over-confident, they were willing to waste a whole day just to toy with them until they ran out of fuel.

I enjoyed EP 1-3 more than the recent three. They were more exciting and epic... these recent three (Rogue One and EP7-8) just seem like episodes from a TV show season.

[GoktimusPrime]

Force users are a rarity in the galaxy, so trying to increase the population by encouraging marriages between Force users would eventually diminish the gene pool and lead to in-breeding.

Speaking of which, imagine if Luke and Leia never found out that they were siblings. The Sequels may have turned out quite differently indeed...
https://image.ibb.co/c5pBhG/starwars_inbred.jpg

[griffin]

Well, they did appear to have hundreds of Jedi in Ep1, and they would still come across new younglings just from their presence on hundreds of worlds... and from those parents wanting their children to be Jedi, would be keen to send their force sensitive kids in to be tested. So, I'd imagine that there would still be enough new genetic material each year... and they'd be wise enough not to allow for any in-breeding (or have the technology to make sure there weren't any matching deformed genes).

I guess the point I was wanting to make, was that the teachings of the Jedi and Sith can suddenly end, but while force sensitive/wielding people keep getting born, people will keep trying to learn how to use their powers, and that will lead to people using them to help others, while some people will use them to control others. And without any existing experience or guidance, you end up with a Lord of the Flies situation - generations of knowledge are no longer available to the people afflicted with the Force, so people will start their own from scratch, on their own, and independent from each other.
In other words, while the Force still exists, it was selfish for any person (Luke and Ren) to want to destroy all the past knowledge and/or the people with the knowledge, of what the Force is, and its potential, because all future Force people are now left with "mutant super powers" that they may not be able to control, or will abuse it without anyone trained to stop them.

Anyways... the whole movie felt like a 2.5 hour epilogue to Ep7 of their evacuation (especially after the whole sidetrack of Finn and Rose leading to nothing). At least the evacuation from Hoth in Ep5 was probably about 30 minutes, and we then focussed on the story of Luke's training and the Falcon crew trying to get back to the fleet.
The Star Wars nerd in me likes the visuals and sound effects (even though they changed the sound of the lightsaber turning on, which annoys me), but it feels like sequel syndrome, in that they can't seem to give us something more epic than before, and have to resort to redoing old plot devices. (they feel like the Star Trek reboots, without the time travel reboot)

[Trent]

Finally saw it today. Easily the best Star Wars movie since the OT. I loved the portrayal of Luke. The disenchantment with the Jedi order he spoke of was so true and it was great to see it acknowledged canonically. I love that he wasn't what the EU made him into because EU Luke Skywalker was, from the books I have read, mostly an idiot.

Didn't they turn Kylo around! What was a snotty, emo, unlikable brat in TFA turned into a genuine threat. Someone who, due to Snoke's prodding, transcended Darth Vader and took the leadership and power that Vader craved but never achieved. It was a little disappointing that Snoke died without much fleshing out but that was made up for in the way it was done. I totally was expecting that lightsaber to fly into Rey's hand, not Snoke's middle!

Plenty of plot holes but compared to other SW movies they were pretty minor. I had no Robles with Leia saving herself and in fact, I thought the move to expand upon what could be done with the force was great.

It wasn't perfect. But I enjoyed it. Which is more than I can say for Rogue One.

[DaptoDog]

Just watched this yesterday. I wanted to love it but can only say I liked it.

I came out of The Force Awakens immediately wanting to see it again but with this one I am happy to wait for the Blu-Ray. There were three specific scenes I felt moved by in TFA ( the first scene of the X-Wings saving Finn etc, Han's death and Rey using the force to take the lightsaber in the last fight scene). But in the Last Jedi nothing really moved me.

I really wanted Snoke to last to the next one so we could learn more about him. Hux is just a caricature. The whole Finn and Rose thing was also out of nowhere and superfluous to the story.

I did find the jokes funny and Poe has become my favourite character of these new films. The fight with the guards after Snoke's death was also cool. But nothing else really comes to mind.

[GoktimusPrime]

Just my opinion RE: Snoke

In the Original Trilogy we knew bugger all about the Emperor. We never knew that his name was Palpatine. The term "Sith" was never used either. All we knew about the Emperor was:
* He was strong in the Dark Side of the Force and has special powers
* He had seduced Anakin into the Dark Side
* He was the head of the Empire and Vader's boss
...that's pretty much it! We knew nothing else about him. In TESB he appears as a hologram speaking to Vader, then in ROTJ he mostly skulks about before being chucked down a hole by an amputee Vader.

Darth Maul was someone who got everyone super excited when trailers of The Phantom Menace came out. Yet he got hardly any dialogue, limited screen time and again, we know practically nothing about him. All we know is that:
* He's Darth Sidious' Sith apprentice
...that's about it! His species (Zabrak) is never named, nor are the history of his tattoos or how he became a Sith blah blah blah Dathomir yada yada yada Nightsisters bleh. As far as the film was concerned, he was just some scary looking dude with pro sabre skills.

So what do we know about Snoke?
* He's a strong user of the Dark Side of the Force
* Kylo Ren is his apprentice
* He's the Supreme Leader of the First Order and has special powers
That's honestly about as much as we knew about the Emperor in the Original Trilogy. Did we need to know any more about the Emperor? I mean, if you sat down and watched the OT without reading any books, watching any TV shows or the Prequel films etc. - i.e. if you just watched those movies on their own... they don't suffer from not knowing who the hell the Emperor is.

Similarly I don't think that the Sequels really suffer from not knowing Snoke's background too. We don't need to know everyone's back stories. The movie should really focus on the main protagonist's journey -- in the OT it was Luke Skywalker, and in the ST it's Rey. Yes, I understand that this journey really isn't done as well as in the OT with too many side quests and issues with pacing etc., but pausing the narrative to tell more side stories doesn't help. This was the issue with things like the Casino Planet and Finn <3 Rose -- they're distracting side stories that could be either shortened or just omitted from the film. Same with Jar Jar Binks... all these distracting antics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YmS_VDvMY).

Stories like these are better left for expanded canon like books, comics etc.

[drifand]

Hmm I disagree lol.
I am leaning with Griffin experience.
I think there was a whole lot more that should have been done instead of leaving JJ now with little to work with.

Simply put there was no need to show Luke vanishing in this episode, could have drag it out in suspense that he is exhausted.

Snoke dying was part of my prediction but I already knew the story may fall short in next chapter.

Basically I knew Reylo wasn't going to happen either as it would be nothing else to tell unless Rey turn dark and Luke was still alive and unfortunately is not.

I am still going to base on very straight forward ending. This is going to be beauty and the beast.

Forget the twist or hidden plots. It's just going to be straight action movie and the end.

I don't even care about the walkers on crate, they felt nothing compared to empire strikes back.

People are not pleased that you can switch the lightsaber on with the force as it will be duelling and then turning your opponents lightsaber off suddenly.
Why not use the force and just break the saber?
Like said it introduced a lot of unjustified scenes.

[philby]

Just my opinion RE: Snoke

In the Original Trilogy we knew bugger all about the Emperor. We never knew that his name was Palpatine. The term "Sith" was never used either. All we knew about the Emperor was:
* He was strong in the Dark Side of the Force and has special powers
* He had seduced Anakin into the Dark Side
* He was the head of the Empire and Vader's boss
...that's pretty much it! We knew nothing else about him. In TESB he appears as a hologram speaking to Vader, then in ROTJ he mostly skulks about before being chucked down a hole by an amputee Vader.

Darth Maul was someone who got everyone super excited when trailers of The Phantom Menace came out. Yet he got hardly any dialogue, limited screen time and again, we know practically nothing about him. All we know is that:
* He's Darth Sidious' Sith apprentice
...that's about it! His species (Zabrak) is never named, nor are the history of his tattoos or how he became a Sith blah blah blah Dathomir yada yada yada Nightsisters bleh. As far as the film was concerned, he was just some scary looking dude with pro sabre skills.

So what do we know about Snoke?
* He's a strong user of the Dark Side of the Force
* Kylo Ren is his apprentice
* He's the Supreme Leader of the First Order and has special powers
That's honestly about as much as we knew about the Emperor in the Original Trilogy. Did we need to know any more about the Emperor? I mean, if you sat down and watched the OT without reading any books, watching any TV shows or the Prequel films etc. - i.e. if you just watched those movies on their own... they don't suffer from not knowing who the hell the Emperor is.

Similarly I don't think that the Sequels really suffer from not knowing Snoke's background too. We don't need to know everyone's back stories. The movie should really focus on the main protagonist's journey -- in the OT it was Luke Skywalker, and in the ST it's Rey. Yes, I understand that this journey really isn't done as well as in the OT with too many side quests and issues with pacing etc., but pausing the narrative to tell more side stories doesn't help. This was the issue with things like the Casino Planet and Finn <3 Rose -- they're distracting side stories that could be either shortened or just omitted from the film. Same with Jar Jar Binks... all these distracting antics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1YmS_VDvMY).

Stories like these are better left for expanded canon like books, comics etc.

in OT the emperor is in the background and you don't need to know anything about him. He doesn't really take part in the story until the end. it isn't really required to know anything about him. you start off with the bad guys established and the good guys fighting them.

in TFA hux and kylo meet with snoke and talk, what, 3 times? he is more involved in the story straight away and seems to have some kind of personal connection or interest in kylo. he is also the 'new' emperor leading the 'new' empire. I think in this context he needs more explanation.

[drifand]

There are even talks that the dialogue that Snoke says before he gets killed has predicted his own death and was ready for it. Something within the lines of strike him down and kill his true enemy?

I think not and it was just a simple boohoo that he force was focused on Rey and wasn't prepared for Kylo's betrayal as Kylo is facing him about to strike Rey, and shielded his thoughts well from Snoke.

Episode nine, will be interesting and not prepared if we see Leia taking out her lightsaber hidden all this while and starts training Rey. That would WOW me as it wasn't predictable but I dont think it will happen.

I didn't feel the movie was long at all. Also I think thats the end of Phasma?

To me this movie is 6.5ish, and could have done a lot better. I preferred Force Awakens.

My issue is the story seem to be disjoint a bit, is like JJ lead the way and Rian just did what he wanted, and JJ now is looking at what options he can do. I be very surprised if the story turns for the better, and like to be proven wrong.

[griffin]

Episode nine, will be interesting and not prepared if we see Leia taking out her lightsaber hidden all this while and starts training Rey. That would WOW me as it wasn't predictable but I dont think it will happen.

Yeah.... I don't think that will happen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Fisher#Death).

I think there might be a lengthy time gap before the next movie, as the Resistance is down to about 20 people, with no ships or resources... and no allies willing to help them. That's a lot of rebuilding, if they are to be a believable force against the First Order.
Then again, the FO managed to only take about 20 years to build themselves up from nothing, into a force powerful enough to take over the galaxy... something that the Empire did with the support of the Republic/Imperial Senate and its wealth, plus a secret building of a clone army and its weapons/ships over a period of about the same time.
To me, it doesn't seem plausible that the FO grew to be so powerful, without the backing of a government/Empire, to force conscription. Is their galaxy so instinctively evil, that millions of people were willingly join up to conquering force, over a peaceful one? After decades of an oppressively cruel Empire, the galaxy celebrated its end (in ROTJ), and yet a few years later, the only real opposition to a similarly oppressive First Order is a small resistance, and are rejected or ignored by the galaxy they fight for. It just seems unlikely.

[GoktimusPrime]

in TFA hux and kylo meet with snoke and talk, what, 3 times? he is more involved in the story straight away and seems to have some kind of personal connection or interest in kylo. he is also the 'new' emperor leading the 'new' empire. I think in this context he needs more explanation.
Darth Maul is more than just a background character yet we knew practically nothing about him. Same with Count Dooku. All we know is:
* He used to be a Jedi who left the Order and turned to the Dark Side
* He was Yoda's student and Qui Gon Jinn's master
* He's allied with the Separatists
...that's it. Why did he leave the Jedi Order? That's a pretty big deal. Why/how did he turn to the Dark Side? Why does he hold the title of Count when the Jedi are all about breaking off emotional attachments? None of these things are explained in-film.

Heck, we know practically nothing about Yoda either. All we know is that he's a super-powerful sage-like Jedi who was head of the Order. How did he become a Jedi? Who taught him? How did he become so wise and powerful? We don't even know what planet he's from or even what species he is. Even expanded canon has never named his species, they just call it Yoda's species (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Yoda%27s_species/Legends). And in the Original Trilogy we don't even know that much about Obi-Wan Kenobi either. All we know is that he's a former Jedi who was Vader's teacher, veteran of the Clone Wars and Yoda's pupil and... that's pretty much it. We have no idea what the Clone Wars even was (as a kid I thought that the Jedi were clones, and that "O.B.-1" was his clone name :p).

But at the end of the day, these characters are not protagonists, hence why the story doesn't become served by expanding on them (rather it would be a diversion). Yoda replaced Obi-Wan Kenobi as the Hero's Mentor. And characters like the Emperor and Snoke are the Villain's Mentor. Star Wars at its core is a story about the Hero's Journey (http://www.movieoutline.com/articles/the-hero-journey-mythic-structure-of-joseph-campbell-monomyth.html). This is why Star Wars was an English HSC prescribed text (http://www.boardofstudies.nsw.edu.au/syllabus_hsc/pdf_doc/english_prestexts.pdf).
Area of Study: Change
Focus: Changing Worlds

Whenever I teach film texts (or any text really), the focus is always on the protagonist. We don't examine the mentor unless it somehow relates to the protagonist. Although Spirited Away is interesting in that the role of the mentor constantly shifts, and at times the line between protagonist and mentor becomes blurred. But in your typical Hero's Journey story there's usually defined protagonist and mentor roles.
e.g.
Gandalf-->Frodo
Glinda the Good Witch-->Dorothy
Morpheus-->Neo
Dumbledore-->Harry Potter
Merlin-->King Arthur
Kesuke Miyagi-->Daniel Larusso
Aslan-->the Pevensie children
Uncle Ben-->Peter Parker
Emmett Brown-->Marty McFly
Whistler-->Blade
...etc.

In the current film text that I'm teaching, I've yet to see any HSC questions appear that focus on the mentor character. In fact, here (http://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/ef726d9d-5f75-4428-b2fe-8494e4a4be98/2017-hsc-japanese-ext.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-ef726d9d-5f75-4428-b2fe-8494e4a4be98-lZ7gX0w) is this year's Japanese Extension HSC paper. Almost all of the questions pertain to the protagonist, Daigo. Question (D) is the only one that even mentions the mentor character (Sasaki) and even then it's only in relation to the protagonist:

(d)「いい加減なこといわないでください！」(line 26)
Explain what this statement reveals about how Daigo views Mr Sasaki.
The question only wants to know what this statement reveals the protagonist's view about the mentor. And indeed when we look at the sample answers (http://educationstandards.nsw.edu.au/wps/wcm/connect/1e6ea786-30ec-4672-967e-023712ae0727/2017-hsc-mg-japanese-ext.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE-1e6ea786-30ec-4672-967e-023712ae0727-l.CEIlU), the answer for this particular question is:
This statement shows that (the protagonist) feels irritated by (the mentor)’s false flattery when he tells (the protagonist) that ‘he was born to do the...job. It’s his calling’. (The protagonist) thinks that it’s very ‘convenient’ or even selfish of (the mentor) to say this, because the only thing that (the mentor) cares about is to employ (the protagonist)/keep him employed.
Notice how everything in this sample answer is entirely from the protagonist's point of view. And the marking criteria is based on the candidate's ability to "Demonstrate a good understanding of how (the protagonist) views (the mentor)." Neither the question nor the marking criteria gives two hoots about the mentor. It's ultimately the protagonist who matters because it is his (or her) journey that drives the story.

[drifand]

This isn't the 80s though and while it works for episodes 4-6, it's why 1-3 failed and we learned nothing from it?

As Griffin did pointed out, I am curious how FO got enough power to continue after the emperor is dead. Which is actually a valid reason to at least talk about Snoke getting in power. Leia , Luke and Han know Snoke so at least talking about him would work, no need to show it. Just like Obwan talked about Anakin.

I only know Snoke has probably battled with Luke if not Anakin as he recognised the lightsaber immediately.

While time is wasted on characters that did almost nothing to the story line, this was the let down of this episode. Is like "why even bother?".

This is becoming bunch of side stories characters, rather then a good movie.
While Adam Driver has lifted his game in acting but Kylo does not strike me as a unmerciful villain. The fact that both Kylo and Rey worked together, it would have conflicting issues of his dark path. But anyway we will see what's next as they really need to make kylo really bad and even Leia gives up hope in her son in order to really capture the moment that he has turned fully.

If we go back to non official books, that story line had realistic value, Storm Troopers were expensive and they would actually think about their missions.
Heck how on earth you can make a star killer base without anyone knowing is unbelievable and continue to make so many different destroyers questions about all the unlimited credit card amount is owing lol. is almost like "Yay the emperor is dead, lets go crazy buying and making that supremacy and new walkers that we always wanted".

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Watched it yesterday and enjoyed it more than FA. But that's not really saying much as I felt bored by that one following previous movies too closely. Haven't read the whole thread, but I felt the movie dragged a little bit and while I understand the Finn/whatsername section was meant to be a learning point for Po, it went on for too long and it was at that point, I started noticing the time.

There are the plot issues about the TLJ and whatnot, but I like what changed in the movie. Luke was portrayed well with his doubts and stuff, so now there are no official Jedi.

While I find emo Ren kind of annoying, in a way, we have a shift from the usual SW crap, as there are no Jedi, no sith lord and his apprentice. Ren is the only sith guy about (is he even a sith now?) and he's unstable and in charge of the FO.

It surprised me in that the plot bits I thought would happen didn't and there were some very cool bits.

I've always had an issue with the FO TBH. They're a big force, that don't use clones, they steal children and train them up, but looking at how many of them there are, I find it incredibly hard to believe that worlds' governments wouldn't have noticed that an awful lot of children are missing. It just seems unfeasible to me. If its slave traders that are doing the work, then how do so many traders get by?

I guess in the end, I'm not THAT huge a fan of Star Wars, so perhaps I'm a bit lighter on it than others. I found it an enjoyable movie. Although the volume was extremely loud and that frigging music at the start suddenly blaring at me always makes me jump. I really hate that.

[GoktimusPrime]

Sadly child soldiers are a thing though. In real life they happen in poor countries like Afghanistan, the Central African Republic, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Iraq, Myanmar, Nigeria, Somalia, South Sudan, Syria, Yemen etc. So it's possible that these Stormtroopers are being taken from poorer worlds, possibly on the Outer Rim. Even during the time of the Republic things like slavery still existed on far off worlds like Tatooine. As Shmi Skywalker explained to Padmé, in these worlds civilisation just doesn't exist. And we see this still happening in the period of the Original Trilogy (Tatooine is still a lawless world controlled by gangsters) and we know that it happens in the Sequels too. Just look at Jakku. We now know that Rey was an indentured child slave herself.

But think about it, there are multiple countries in our world today which recruits child soldiers, including terrorist organisations like Islamic State and the Christian Lord's Resistance Army etc. The LRA's use of child soldiers was briefly brought to the world's attention with the #Kony2012 movement... but then everyone promptly forgot about it, cos hey, it's 2013 and Oppan Gangnam Style! :p The Syrian conflict has displaced more people than WWII (:eek:) but we don't care because it's not happening in a developed Western country. We cared for a little while in 2015 when photos of a drowned 3 year old boy's body washed ashore in Turkey. Since then we sometimes care... we see video or photos of victims... bombings, chemical attacks... horrible stuff. But then we forget about it.

Think about it... what do we call a basic foot soldier in an army? Infantry. From the Latin word 'infans' meaning small child. Obviously most infantry are made up of adults, but the word itself still draws its origins from when children were used as arrow fodder. :( Lots and lots and lots of children going missing and joining armies around the world today, yet we turn a blind eye to it on a daily basis.

[drifand]

Has this became a Religion war story?
It sounds like Christians and Islamic having a go and somewhere in between there is the balance? hmm.... Grey Jedi is no more than another Religion?

Sounds like the story just base on Light and darkness. And yes episode nine we get spectrum of colours.

If you are a Star Wars fan, I think you will fall under very disappointed how Luke's character was done or love it as you hated the past crap.

I find a lot of videos of fans thinking the twist is TLJ and thinking how it will go.
And I feel very sorry for them trying not to accept the obvious outcome that it will NOT end the way they thought out to be.

If you are emotionally attached to Star Wars I feel you be more heart broken following the fan theories at this point. A big warning, you will be disappointed as a lot of "good ideas" are definitely not going to be implemented. Sadly star Wars isn't Game of Thrones, and is actually predictable.

I feel the tables has turned, I am actually enjoying Star Trek movies a bit more than how Star Wars is going. But overall can't be as bad as Bay's Transformers, and I hope it stays that way.

[philby]

words


what is the foil to a protagonist?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Just saw it a second time, at the IMAX theatre in the Smithsonian in Washington DC :cool: It’s a really enjoyable movie, and is a worthy successor to TFA. But is it better than Empire, as some have been saying? Nah...not even close.

[SharkyMcShark]

Have seen it three times. I enjoy it more with every viewing.

[Jetfire in the sky]

Darth Maul is more than just a background character yet we knew practically nothing about him.

Seriously?
You haven't watched The Clone Wars, read the canon comics or seen Rebels?

[i_amtrunks]

Seriously?
You haven't watched The Clone Wars, read the canon comics or seen Rebels?

I think Goks point is when the Phantom Menace came out we knew nothing about him and it has only been the clone wars, books and other media that have fleshed him out ( pun intended).

[griffin]

Yeah... Star Wars has a habit of not fleshing out their villains on-screen, especially if they are only in one Movie. (maybe it was the inspiration for Michael Bay's work on Transformers :p )

Maul showed up as the big bad guy for the new/prequel Trilogy, and after 3 or 4 lines, he was killed off, without knowing anything about who he was.
Then again, we didn't really know much about Darth Vader from his first movie either (Ep4). It was in ESB that we learnt who he was to Luke, and that he was Obi Wan's student, and I think even his real name.
As Goktimus noted earlier, we we didn't know anything about the Emperor either after the original Trilogy... or that there was an Emperor until ESB (it seemed like the military was in charge during Ep4, and to me, Vader looked more like a non-ranking militia or bounty hunter).

[Trent]

Yeah... Star Wars has a habit of not fleshing out their villains on-screen, especially if they are only in one Movie. (maybe it was the inspiration for Michael Bay's work on Transformers :p )

Maul showed up as the big bad guy for the new/prequel Trilogy, and after 3 or 4 lines, he was killed off, without knowing anything about who he was.
Then again, we didn't really know much about Darth Vader from his first movie either (Ep4). It was in ESB that we learnt who he was to Luke, and that he was Obi Wan's student, and I think even his real name.
As Goktimus noted earlier, we we didn't know anything about the Emperor either after the original Trilogy... or that there was an Emperor until ESB (it seemed like the military was in charge during Ep4, and to me, Vader looked more like a non-ranking militia or bounty hunter).

The Emperor was mentioned once in Episode 4 by Tarkin. But I agree with Gok, we knew nothing about so many characters throughout Star Wars history but with Snoke it's suddenly the worst thing ever.

Boba Fett for example. What did he ever do to deserve the following and status he has? Bugger all.

[drifand]

I think the issue is that is missing a timeline of how FO and Snoke comes into power, so killing Snoke off pretty much is in your face "you dont need to know anymore". Which was one of the main questions in TFA.

In fact, the three main questions is a smack on the face for Star Wars fandom, as 1. Who is Rey > You dont need to know she is nobody
2. Who is snoke . You dont need to know either he is dead. lol
3. What is Luke's future > dah...all done mate

So basically everything build up in TFA is almost demolished, hence the excitement is sort of cut off. While I am no a crazy follower of this entire Star Wars thingy, I have followed some for these guys who do heaps of work before the last Jedi which were so much efforts on these three questions only to be shot down immediately after the Last Jedi was shown. Its almost like all that effort went down the drain. and Yes Rian J was very aware of these theories and for him, his priority was HIS version was no one had guessed and NOT whether it was going to be any good.

I won't be surprise that there is a hidden Sith you guys have not discovered and they do another insert > "surprise!" and you find Kylo and Rey struggle to beat him, who knows? Kylo isn't exactly very strong. Rey has the books so she probably could learn more than Kylo Ren.

I am curious, the part that General Hux entered the Throne room and saw Snoke dead, did anyone catch EXACTLY what his intent (probably wanting to kill Kylo Ren) or WEAPON was concealed on his side that he was about to pull out? A gun or Lightsaber?
Just before Kylo Ren gained conscious.

[i_amtrunks]

Hux is a weak willed punk, the books released thus far depict him as more or less incompetent but has a certain underling perform assassinations of his political and power rivals for him to him elevate through the ranks.

He gained his position from the work of his father, nothing from his own power or abilities. I’d imagine t was a standard first order officers blaster he was reaching for.

[Jetfire in the sky]

I think Goks point is when the Phantom Menace came out we knew nothing about him and it has only been the clone wars, books and other media that have fleshed him out ( pun intended).

Fair enough, I certainly agree with that point. :)

[CHILENO20]

Finally saw it last night. I have many questions which I can see many people having same gripes as me. Who is Rey, who was Snoke, how did the first order get so powerful, that sort of thing. My main thing now is how are they going to go forward without Carrie Fisher? My gf and me came up with the theory Luke will come back as a Force ghost to continue to guide Rey. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has come up with that theory. I guess all we can do now is wait another 2 years. And as much as I love Star Wars, this IMO was not the best one. My fav still is ROTS followed by ROTJ. Just my opinion.

[drifand]

Finally saw it last night. I have many questions which I can see many people having same gripes as me. Who is Rey, who was Snoke, how did the first order get so powerful, that sort of thing. My main thing now is how are they going to go forward without Carrie Fisher? My gf and me came up with the theory Luke will come back as a Force ghost to continue to guide Rey. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has come up with that theory. I guess all we can do now is wait another 2 years. And as much as I love Star Wars, this IMO was not the best one. My fav still is ROTS followed by ROTJ. Just my opinion.

Yup, a lot of people already threw in the force ghost thingy. But be prepared for budget version, and what I meant here is they don't want to pay Mark in the next flim and they just make Rey study the books with the help of Leia < I know they probably get some actress to fill in.

The funny thing is Hux is actually controlling the FO fleet, and is only because Kylo Ren has the force to threaten him, he is unable to lead on.

By story line, I just like 4-6 and thats it. 1-3 is spoiled by the technology of CGI over done and Jaja binks.

TFA onwards, I try not to judge, I think it is like forget the past and move forward new chapter.

Like said there are things I like in the Last Jedi but there are a lot of plot holes. I honestly think the story could stay the same but be told in a very more entertaining manner. how it goes on from here will be very important, as the film did angered a lot of hardcore fans I felt.

End of the day, Disney sees it as a business, they weigh up whether the new generation of followers and whatever loyalty fans likes it vs Star War fans who complaints about what has happened in the Last Jedi.

A lot of people had regarded Luke as their savior and to have him killed in this episode has really went to extremes of boycotting the next film.

When I watch the latest Star Trek movies I can appreciate JJ's direction on how he takes the story from the past to the new and go from there.

Star Wars TFA and Last Jedi had a good entry and now and shaky middle story. I hope it ends on a good note.

[griffin]

Finally saw it last night. I have many questions which I can see many people having same gripes as me. Who is Rey, who was Snoke, how did the first order get so powerful, that sort of thing. My main thing now is how are they going to go forward without Carrie Fisher? My gf and me came up with the theory Luke will come back as a Force ghost to continue to guide Rey. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has come up with that theory. I guess all we can do now is wait another 2 years. And as much as I love Star Wars, this IMO was not the best one. My fav still is ROTS followed by ROTJ. Just my opinion.

I don't have a problem with him returning as a jedi ghost (I don't know why people do have an issue with it), and I think they will need to have him back in some significant way, now that Carrie Fisher is gone... otherwise they have killed off all the main Original Trilogy (organic) people.
I think they will probably rush back in Lando, which would seem out of place now, after two movies without even mentioning his name, as if he had died some time ago, soon after ROTJ.

BTW... did anyone else find Yoda's ghost in TLJ was odd, like... not how Yoda has ever acted before - laughing in a crazy insane way. He's more rational than that, almost emotionless, and then he starts cackling away uncontrollably. It just didn't seem right.

[Lord_Zed]

BTW... did anyone else find Yoda's ghost in TLJ was odd, like... not how Yoda has ever acted before - laughing in a crazy insane way. He's more rational than that, almost emotionless, and then he starts cackling away uncontrollably. It just didn't seem right.

Yoda showed more of the charlatan act he put on when Luke first encountered him in Empire. it was odd yet at the same time prequel Yoda was a boring and uninteresting robot.

Personally I see force ghosts as projections rather than individual entities, so my theory is Yoda's erratic behaviors mirrored Luke's trouble mental state in the movie.

I did really like that it was puppet Yoda too.

[GoktimusPrime]

Heh, like Bumblebee's Ghost ;)

Although I would take it on face value that it is actually Yoda's ghost. And being so powerful it really doesn't make sense. I mean, that super-ghost could single-handedly END the First Order and take out Kylo Ren. It makes Yoda kind of a <expletive> for not doing so.

The Force Ghosts made more sense in the Original Trilogy when they were just apparitions who only appeared to Luke and only he could see/hear them. And that's all they were... just voices and visions. They couldn't physically interact. From a story telling POV, it was so that these characters could continue to serve as the Hero's Mentor even from beyond the grave. And sure, Yoda does do this in The Last Jedi... but it could've also been done without the big extravagant destruction of the tree and books. It might've been better if Yoda had persuaded Luke to do it himself, thus allowing Luke to stop dwelling on the past and look towards the future. Not Yoda doing it for him.

One point that The Empire Strikes Back made was that if Yoda has to use the Force for Luke, then it was a sign of Luke's weakness or failure. Like getting Luke's X-Wing out of the swamp. Of course Yoda could've done it himself, but he wanted to get Luke to do it. And as a teacher (and parent) I can tell you that this completely makes sense. When my students or my daughter has a question or a problem to solve, I don't just give them the answers. I encourage them to work it out or discover it for themselves. I might help guide them to find these answers, but I really do not like just telling answers to kids because then they don't learn anything!

So Yoda was in full Teacher Mode on Dagobah when he initially told Luke to use the Force to retrieve his own X-Wing. Yoda only later did it himself after Luke had given up and told Yoda, "You want the impossible!" Then of course was the epic exchange after Yoda retrieved the X-Wing...
Luke: "I don't... I don't believe it!"
Yoda: "That is why you fail."

Yoda only did it as a lesson of last resort to prove to Luke that he was not asking for the impossible and that it could be done. Yoda was helping Luke to overcome his defeatist attitude. If Yoda wanted to do this again, then surely a similar style lesson would've worked better. In Empire, Yoda was more of a director of learning rather than just a prattling font of knowledge -- which is good teaching practice. A good teacher doesn't spew facts at you, they guide you to see it for yourself.

Seriously... The Last Jedi Ghost Yoda is like a freakin' Muppet Chuck Norris. He could totally end the Star Wars on his own (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coqJk0zZvPA).

[Lord_Zed]

Heh, like Bumblebee's Ghost ;)

Although I would take it on face value that it is actually Yoda's ghost. And being so powerful it really doesn't make sense. I mean, that super-ghost could single-handedly END the First Order and take out Kylo Ren. It makes Yoda kind of a <expletive> for not doing so.

The Force Ghosts made more sense in the Original Trilogy when they were just apparitions who only appeared to Luke and only he could see/hear them. And that's all they were... just voices and visions. They couldn't physically interact. From a story telling POV, it was so that these characters could continue to serve as the Hero's Mentor even from beyond the grave. And sure, Yoda does do this in The Last Jedi... but it could've also been done without the big extravagant destruction of the tree and books. It might've been better if Yoda had persuaded Luke to do it himself, thus allowing Luke to stop dwelling on the past and look towards the future. Not Yoda doing it for him.



Well prequel Yoda engaged in battle with Palapatine for about 15 minutes, then fell down and gave up and decided to hide on Dagobah for 20 odd years, he's already kinda an expletive.

I don't have an issue with the tree zapping, my idea of force ghost are more like projections of the viewers subconscious mixed with the Force, and the Force is itself a thing so whether Yoda summoned a bolt of lightning, it was Luke's subconscious, or the Force itself reacting to the interaction I think it makes as much sense as any Force Ghost concept.

I also do not think the Force and Force Ghost are separate entities, as when Yoda died in Jedi he said he would be one with the Force, so where does Ghost Yoda being and the Force end? That's why no matter how powerful a Force Ghost appears I don't think they can go round serving old allegiances, and besides their likely to only have such power where the Force is particularly strong.

I mean if you think Yoda could have Chuck Norrised the whole First Order, Obi-Wan could have at least done espionage work for the Rebellion, all those Bothans would not have had to die if a Force Ghost has memorised the Death Star plans.

PS: If Force Ghosts don't interact with their environment why does Obi-Wan sit down on the log in Jedi, do ghosts get tired? :D

[griffin]

Well prequel Yoda engaged in battle with Palapatine for about 15 minutes, then fell down and gave up and decided to hide on Dagobah for 20 odd years, he's already kinda an expletive.


I guess the writers didn't have much room to move with things like that, since Palpatine had to survive to the Original Series, but fans (and the movie studio) would have wanted to see a Yoda V Palpatine battle at some point during the prequel trilogy.
The prequels had to flesh out or explain things only briefly mentioned or implied during the original trilogy, while making sure they don't end up contradicting or preventing anything that already happened in Ep 4-6.
I think it might have made more sense to have Yoda go straight into hiding when Order 66 was initiated, sacrificing the action scene of his confrontation with Palpatine, whom Yoda should have easily defeated.
Obi Wan could have gone to the Jedi Temple on his own, to find out about Anakin before going after him on Mustafa. After Order 66 occurred, Yoda's inclusion on-screen was pretty much unnecessary from that point on.

[i_amtrunks]

Yoda’s fight with Palestine was very ordinary. I vaguely recall reading that the destruction of the Jedi order only hours before ruined him mentally and emotionally and he could not wield his Sabre to i his full potential.

That and i think they wanted to show Palestine as being a supremely powerful force user as well as master manipulator...

Or we are all over thinking this and Lucas and the other Star Wars writers have been given too much credit post film release!

[SharkyMcShark]

Yoda’s fight with Palestine was very ordinary. I vaguely recall reading that the destruction of the Jedi order only hours before ruined him mentally and emotionally and he could not wield his Sabre to i his full potential.

That and i think they wanted to show Palestine as being a supremely powerful force user as well as master manipulator...

Or we are all over thinking this and Lucas and the other Star Wars writers have been given too much credit post film release!

I did do several laughs.


I guess the writers didn't have much room to move with things like that, since Palpatine had to survive to the Original Series, but fans (and the movie studio) would have wanted to see a Yoda V Palpatine battle at some point during the prequel trilogy.
The prequels had to flesh out or explain things only briefly mentioned or implied during the original trilogy, while making sure they don't end up contradicting or preventing anything that already happened in Ep 4-6.
I think it might have made more sense to have Yoda go straight into hiding when Order 66 was initiated, sacrificing the action scene of his confrontation with Palpatine, whom Yoda should have easily defeated.
Obi Wan could have gone to the Jedi Temple on his own, to find out about Anakin before going after him on Mustafa. After Order 66 occurred, Yoda's inclusion on-screen was pretty much unnecessary from that point on.

The way Yoda was handled in episodes 2 and 3 suggests to me that George Lucas on a really basic level fundamentally misunderstands the roles and purposes of characters in his films.

The brilliance of Yoda, as we were introduced to him in ESB and later saw in ROTJ, was that the audience was shown and literally directly told that to be a great Jedi you didn't have to be a devil-may-care muscly swashbuckling physical warrior type.

The greatest use of the Force seen in the released films to that point, being the X-Wing lifted out of the swamp, was accomplished by a strange two foot tall frog goblin thing who didn't have a lightsaber, walked with a pronounced limp, and had no desire to actively join the righteous fight against the Empire despite his power.

Then you had the Emperor set up as a fantastic counterpoint to that. The most powerful evil in the galaxy was a frail old man with a walking stick and no light saber - the very antithesis to the physically imposing machine-like Darth Vader.

The way that these beacons of the light and dark were set up communicated some very important things about what it meant to be an extremely powerful Jedi or Sith. Physical strength, lightsaber training, and combat mastery were at the end of the day negligible. It ties in incredibly well with the end of ROTJ, where Luke helps bring about the end of the Sith by laying down his saber and refusing to give in to the urge to fight.

But, hang on a minute, suddenly its the early 2000s and Early 2000s Quality CGI That Will Age Terribly (patent pending) is a thing! Everyone gets a saber! Let's have everyone doing backflips!

Lucas literally said in one of the commentaries for ESB that if they'd had the technology in the 1980s to make it work that he'd have had Yoda running alongside Luke doing backflips and leaping over rocks, instead of riding in his backpack. George Lucas doesn't understand his own characters.



PS: If Force Ghosts don't interact with their environment why does Obi-Wan sit down on the log in Jedi, do ghosts get tired? :D

There's an interesting fan theory floating around that I heard posited by Sam Witwer (has done extensive Star Wars voice work) that as Luke becomes more attuned to the Light side in the OT that he's better able to view and interact with Obi Wan's ghost - in ANH it's just a voice, in ESB it's transparent, and in ROTJ it's almost solid with an aura, and can physically interact with things like the log.

[i_amtrunks]

Probably would’ve been more interesting.

Not even going to edit it and remove spell checker.

[GoktimusPrime]

^LOL :D

PS: If Force Ghosts don't interact with their environment why does Obi-Wan sit down on the log in Jedi, do ghosts get tired? :D
ROFL! :D :D

Took my family to watch this movie today. Upon second viewing, that Canto Bite/Casino scene was even MORE useless than I remember it being! :eek:

I can honestly say that the entire sub-plot of Finn and Rose going to that Casino and looking for the Code Breaker yada yada yada could've been easily omitted from the story and nothing would change. :( The whole "6 hours of fuel" thing really doesn't make sense to me, nor does the excuse of the First Order always lagging behind the Resistance Fleet because the Resistance cruisers are "smaller and lighter." Lighter? In space?! And I still don't get why Holdo just allowed Poe to stage his coup. The moment it started was when Holdo should've said something to persuade Poe not to relinquish her of command. She could not have known that Leia would've recovered just in the nick of time to stop Poe. Why not just have words with Poe? Even something like, "We do have something better planned but I'm not at liberty to tell you what it is. Please trust me." Or, "May I have a quick private chat with you for a moment?" Poe mutinied because he was led to think that Holdo's plan was to simply continue outrunning the First Order in defenceless shuttles. He was justified in his fear based on what he knew, this was counter-productive to Holdo's objective! Yes, he's an impulsive and triggerhappy fly-boy, but you need him on side!

Otherwise I found the rest of the film to be quite fun and enjoyable. :)

P.S.: Noticed that Luke makes direct reference to events and people from the Prequel Trilogy. When The Force Awakens came out, I heard people theorise that the Sequels were going to ignore the Prequels and only continue from the Original Trilogy. But The Last Jedi, also referencing the Prequels, clearly shows that they aren't ignoring them. Which I think is good.

[drahsrebu]

Heh, like Bumblebee's Ghost ;)
but it could've also been done without the big extravagant destruction of the tree and books.

Did you notice aboard the falcon when Finn opens one of the drawers, those ancient books are in there. Rey stole them!!
That’s also why yoda didn’t hesitate to burn the tree down.
“Wisdom they held, but that library contained nothing that the girl Rey does not already possess.”

Because she already has the books.

[Deonasis]

Someone mentioned to me how Luke should have gone out better. In the movie he seemed un-Luke (but was a kick ass hologram later in the film).

Instead of a hologram, how about he flew an x-wing and completely outclassed everyone (including Poe) bringing him back to what he was originally known for, his unrivalled kickass flying ability. THEN go all Obi wan no-clothes.

Yes, his hologram was very cool and must have been very powerful but throughout most of the movie and his actions he never really felt like 'Luke'.

[drifand]

Someone mentioned to me how Luke should have gone out better. In the movie he seemed un-Luke (but was a kick ass hologram later in the film).

Instead of a hologram, how about he flew an x-wing and completely outclassed everyone (including Poe) bringing him back to what he was originally known for, his unrivalled kickass flying ability. THEN go all Obi wan no-clothes.

Yes, his hologram was very cool and must have been very powerful but throughout most of the movie and his actions he never really felt like 'Luke'.

Yup read this plot suggestion and I liked it.
I don't think the hologram was bad, I just felt what a waste.
An honourable fight would be excellent including loosing another hand whatsoever from either side. Hell if kylo looses his hand he will be so much angrier and serves a purpose of turning dark.

Oh well, I am just concern that Rian is still writing the script for next episode? This means jj is done for regardless.

[SharkyMcShark]

Instead of a hologram, how about he flew an x-wing and completely outclassed everyone (including Poe) bringing him back to what he was originally known for, his unrivalled kickass flying ability. THEN go all Obi wan no-clothes.


That sounds like awful fanfiction.

https://twitter.com/swankmotron/status/950394363384807424

This series of Twitter messages is incredibly on point for Luke's role in TLJ.

[shockNwave]

Yoda’s fight with Palestine was very ordinary. I vaguely recall reading that the destruction of the Jedi order only hours before ruined him mentally and emotionally and he could not wield his Sabre to i his full potential.

That and i think they wanted to show Palestine as being a supremely powerful force user as well as master manipulator...

Or we are all over thinking this and Lucas and the other Star Wars writers have been given too much credit post film release!

Please...don't let this turn into a Palestine vs Israel thing.:rolleyes:;)

[Lord_Zed]

Instead of a hologram, how about he flew an x-wing and completely outclassed everyone (including Poe) bringing him back to what he was originally known for, his unrivalled kickass flying ability. THEN go all Obi wan no-clothes.



Was he though? I mean all he ever did in the movies was fly the Deathstar trench and use the force to drop some proton torpedoes, while clearly a skilled pilot he never really evidenced dog fighting skills on the same level as Poe Dameron, Anakin or Wedge Antilles even. Lets not forget at the battle of Hoth Wedge is the one who flies around the ATAT and topples it, not to mention his exploits at the battle of Endor.

Luke's up there, but I'd argue the above three plus Han Solo are actually more skilled pilots, and with the exception of Anakin they don't use the Force.

[i_amtrunks]

So looks like most cinemas are kicking this out at the end of this current movie week, only a four week run for most cinemas... is his a big “up yours” to Disney for all the hoops and rigmarole they’ve had to put up with? I know January can be crowded but Thor Ragnarok seems to be going out this week too and it has been showing for at least an extra month.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I wouldn’t read much into it, movies go for a month at most nowadays, usually the big blockbusters. Some barely last a fortnight.

[drifand]

So looks like most cinemas are kicking this out at the end of this current movie week, only a four week run for most cinemas... is his a big “up yours” to Disney for all the hoops and rigmarole they’ve had to put up with? I know January can be crowded but Thor Ragnarok seems to be going out this week too and it has been showing for at least an extra month.

Thor was so much more fun to watch and I regret didn't going to cinema for this.

Rian Johnson has stated he be making his own Star Wars trilogy which I am quite reluctant to support seeing how he tells the story is quite poor.

[SharkyMcShark]

So looks like most cinemas are kicking this out at the end of this current movie week, only a four week run for most cinemas... is his a big “up yours” to Disney for all the hoops and rigmarole they’ve had to put up with? I know January can be crowded but Thor Ragnarok seems to be going out this week too and it has been showing for at least an extra month.


I wouldn’t read much into it, movies go for a month at most nowadays, usually the big blockbusters. Some barely last a fortnight.


I recall going to see The Force Awakens in early Feb 2016 as it was just about to leave cinemas, so you might be onto something.

I might pop in for viewing #4 this week then.

TLJ has left me immensely excited not only for Episode IX but even more so for Rian Johnson's own trilogy. Out of all the films I'm currently tossing up whether it's my second or third favourite (ESB a clear winner, can't decide if I like TLJ more than ANH).

[Paulbot]

I want to see it again in cinemas but have been distracted. Thought I had at least another week or two, but will need to lock this in now.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Yes, his hologram was very cool and must have been very powerful but throughout most of the movie and his actions he never really felt like 'Luke'.
I liked the way they went with it. Perhaps young Young Luke would&ve been all gung-ho slashy slash, but thorughout his dealings with Rey, he talks about not being able to live up to the image of the "Legendary" Jedi Luke. To me, this is a Luke who has grown, learned and in the process lost his confidence of how much he can do.
I think the movie added a lot of depth to Luke's character.
At the end, he does what he thinks is the best course of action, and even though at the end of TLJ, it doesn't seem like much, I am sure it will play out to more later on.

[Ploughmans Lunch]

Star wars

[SharkyMcShark]

This is released for bluray in the coming weeks.

Very excited - the bundle features 14 deleted scenes, a 95 minute long Making Of doco, and full director audio commentary for the film.

I didn't bother with any of the home releases of Rogue One or The Force Awakens due to a dearth of special features and behind the scenes stuff, but this seems fairly content packed.

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

It's sad when even a parody would've made a better movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCB8DUGpYQQ

[XMan]

It's sad when people are still whinging about this.

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

Seeing as I only watched the movie yesterday, I didn't realise I couldn't make a comment about how bad it was because others had done it already.

[XMan]

Seeing as I didn't know you had only viewed the film yesterday, I apologise.

[drifand]

Seeing as I only watched the movie yesterday, I didn't realise I couldn't make a comment about how bad it was because others had done it already.

apparently you need to read the the last jedi novelisation and watch the deleted scenes and watch interviews with Rian Johnson in order to understand the movie. :)

I personally felt some of his deleted scenes would have made the movie a lot acceptable and even half decent.

I think they tried too hard and lost focus about what is Star Wars. Oh and if you hate it, you are considered a Sexist or the minority, pick one. lol

[philby]

I bought the blu-ray last week and watched it. It was only the 2nd time viewing. I have definitely appreciated it more the second time around, but I was not a "hater" to begin with. There are still a couple of things that bug me but I have come around on a couple I had after the first viewing.

[GoktimusPrime]

I bought the DVD a few times and I have also come to appreciate and enjoy this movie more upon repeat viewings. The Canto Bite/Casino act is still useless though. :/

Thoughts...

* Bombs dropping in space - scientifically accurate! Simply put, this battle occurs above a planet where the Resistance Base was. Thus they are still within relative influence of that planet's gravity. The ISS is also still within influence of the Earth's gravity, as is our moon. The ISS remains in orbit not because it's weightless but because it's in perpetual free fall due to its sideways momentum, creating what is known as microgravity. If the ISS were to ever stop moving then it would plummet to the Earth, which is what happened to the old Mir station. As the bombs dropping on the Dreadnaught are only moving downwards, they do not have sufficient sideways momentum to generate microgravity, thus they would indeed fall to the ship's surface.

* Resistance ships appearing to slow down after running out of fuel. This is criticised because in a vacuum, an object should continue to be in motion unless acted upon by another force. Running out of fuel doesn't slow a ship down since there's nothing like gravity or atmosphere to act upon it. However what we are looking at here is relative speed. In order for the Resistance ships to be burning fuel to outrun the First Order, they would have to be accelerating and not moving at a constant speed. Once the ship runs out of fuel, it ceases to accelerate. The First Order ships on the other hand are still accelerating, as are the Resistance ships which have yet to be fuel depleted. Thus the depleted ships would appear to "slow down" relative to the First Order and Resistance ships that are still in acceleration.

* Rey being a nobody: this was deliberately done to make her new and different! Making her related to someone else has already been done and is still being done. Luke was Darth Vader's son and Kylo Ren is related to Luke, Leia and Han. When a protagonist is related to other characters, especially the antagonist, then the stakes are higher. They are bound to these other characters. Darth Vader was no longer just some masked bad guy that Luke could blindly hate, he was his father. He was part of himself. "I cannot kill my own father." -- there's a dilemma here. And we know that this dilemma still exists for Kylo. Killing Han was a difficult decision to make, and we know that Ren couldn't bring himself to kill Leia. Rey is a completely different concept. Here is a character with no ties to any of the other major characters. This then makes her motivation arguably more pure. She is not under any real obligation to thwart Kylo Ren, and she could choose to join him or just walk away from all this if she wanted to. This is not her fight, so to speak. But the fact that Rey chooses to continue to fight for the Resistance even after discovering that her parents were nobodies demonstrates an additional level of determination and moral resolution beyond that of even Luke Skywalker. She's like Wonder Woman in a way... she just wants to help people and do the right thing.

* Luke being the fallen hero. Again, this was done to make something new. Luke needed to be a mentor for Rey, but Rian Johnson has made the decision to make him different from Obi-Wan Kenobi or Yoda. In his youth, Luke listened to his friends crying in pain and flew off the rescue them despite Yoda and Obi-Wan's warnings. And his friends suffered as a result. With the rise of Kylo Ren and the First Order, Luke can also hear voices crying for help again, but coupled with the personal shame and guilt that he felt, he also remembered how he made matters worse the last time he listened to this instinct. Luke has isolated himself and severed his connection from the Force in order to protect others as he has come to believe that the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith. He believes that his further involvement will only make matters worse, not better, and thus the best he can do is stay away. Ultimately Rey and Yoda teach him that this isn't true, but we can understand why Luke has fallen to this level, and it also gives him a journey to complete on his own.

* Kylo the rage monkey -- I forget how young Kylo is supposed to be. Both Rey and Kylo Ren represent youth, with Rey personifying hope and Kylo personifying anger. He is the Yin to her Yang. And we see in the throne room battle how the two working together can achieve a balance, even if it was just temporary.

[Lord_Zed]

Don't try to bring science into Star Wars, if you want that go watch Star Trek or something, space in Star Wars is all about "pew pew" and explosions. :p

I think those scientific explanations are a bit of a stretch to rehabilitate scenes that were written to look cool, not to be scientifically accurate. The whole space chase is kind of silly, however I wont hold it against the movie anymore, because all Star Wars space battles are pretty silly really.

I too also watched the movie for the second time again, while I liked it a bit better than the first time I watched it, I do think it's a film with issues, namely that it's too damn long, that's mainly Canto Bite(s) fault, but it means the movie lacks the rewatachbility of the Force Awakens. Again my favourtie parts are still the Luke, Rei, Kylo arcs.

I noticed a few extra touches and details I missed the first time, mostly the Falcon losing it's radar again, also that nice little touch where Hux is in the Throne room after the battle and reaches for his pistol when Kylo is momentarily unconscious.

While I'm not super excited to see the next one, I'm curious to where they will take the characters.

[Galvatran]

I bought the DVD a few times and I have also come to appreciate and enjoy this movie more upon repeat viewings.

*snip wall of text*
... Or you can actually buy just one DVD and re-watch the movie repeatedly to your heart's content.

[BruiseLee]

... Or you can actually buy just one DVD and re-watch the movie repeatedly to your heart's content.

A true fan will support Darth Maus by shelling out for each DVD viewing.

[drifand]

I have major issues with the story, while a lot of people who defended the movie , they don't even realize the genre of this movie tying Star Wars as a "kids movie" so all the bombs drop in space, opening air locks , flying through space with no helmet are forgiven. > It bugs me when the entire story is bad and these minor things just adds up. Secondly the movie is rated M with violence, I am not sure if these people really understand what is a kids movie and are just saying things because they have to.

Now despite the top part, the main issues is the story. If you watch the movie and read the novelization, it makes sense. Which brings me to point one, the movie wasn't on point in telling what happen or how it happen > It just goes THIS happen, and thats it.

Minus Luke and Snoke's death, which eliminates any further story point for the next episode, the movie does not make the audience excited about whats going to happen next. Unlike TFA, we have lots of questions, this episode just leaves me with a "ur okay" vibe.

Luke character felt under utilise and wasted. Doesn't bug me that he died, but it feels like they didn't make use of the opportunity. Part of it was that Rian doesn't want to make Luke powerful so it doesn't over shadow Rey or other characters. But still you have a nobody who can lift rocks with hardly any training, and looks like she gets better.

Leia not coming forward in the last scene is just wrongly thought out. No mother would not confront her own son and just run away. Not especially when your husband was just killed by your own son. We can all discuss about it, but I have no confidence in this story at all. It should have been made in such a way that the remaining group convince her not to go out of the base.
I guarantee no mother would have walked away in regardless whether Luke turned up as a hologram and she was aware of it, take note at this point nobody knows Luke's a fake, only Leia or C3PO would know, but Kylo has no clue, how ironic. This unfortunately is a problem and I know mums will never chicken out to face their son especially this looks like a family problem.
Seeing Kylo has feelings about killing his mum, I dont think he would kill her in front of the first order.

The other bits, Finn < poor guy, he deserves better than Rose. I don't even want to go there. Holdo >despite criticism she doesn't know how to control fly boy, I only felt she was wasted. Captain Phasma and finn deleted scene was better. Third lesson from Luke was in the trailer but not in the movie feels cheating the audience.

Second main fail point is how Ben become Kylo was just cut short. Luke ignites Green lightsaber, and wham....I am now Kylo Ren. Like I said there is no build up, or how he becomes Kylo, it just automatically happens. Both characters fail, one Luke deciding to kill Ben of which a character from Return of the Jedi will not even kill his own dad but wants to kill Ben over a dream which should have been shown so it makes it more believable.

Ben on the other hand is missing the parts on how he decides to join Snoke and become who he is.

There is a big gap and is cut short. Not to mention missing Knights of Ren. I can watch this again and again but it doesn't fit well at all in this new trilogy.

I don't hate it, but I am not super hype with the story and it fell short. I might feel Phantom Manace as not exciting but I enjoyed Darth Maul and Obi and Qui Gon fight scene as much as what happened in the throne room. However, Snoke death just means Kylo is the main villain doesn't feels like he is someone who is going to kill Rey even though in the scene when he is fighting Luke he says he is going to kill her. Well she just saved your arse back in the throne room, and over the entire story you have made a connection and nothing of hate, including touching hands. I am not convinced Kylo has what he takes to kill Rey.

I can go with the flow but honestly is a bad story. I watched Tomb Raider and I enjoyed it a lot more than this, and is solely because the story line has proper on point direction. Sometimes trying new things will pay off and sometimes destroying certain things could back fire. I believe everyone would have loved Star Wars to be a success, unfortunately I think there is significant numbers that felt this movie wasn't doing well as it should. Take note, before anyone starts bragging about how much this movie made, it has nothing to do with what is going forward from here. Most fans will watch this movie in order to know whether they will like or dislike, hence the sales would have been high. The next few Star Wars movies will actually show if there was indeed a damage to the brand.

Overall, I feel Rian Johnson isn't experienced and his movie could have been told in the same way but better.

[SharkyMcShark]

I have major issues with the story, while a lot of people who defended the movie , they don't even realize the genre of this movie tying Star Wars as a "kids movie" so all the bombs drop in space, opening air locks , flying through space with no helmet are forgiven. > It bugs me when the entire story is bad and these minor things just adds up.


Don't try to bring science into Star Wars, if you want that go watch Star Trek or something, space in Star Wars is all about "pew pew" and explosions. :p
...

however I wont hold it against the movie anymore, because all Star Wars space battles are pretty silly really.



Yeah, really this. A lot of the other movies immediately begin to fall apart if you take a THIS MAKES NO TACTICAL OR PHYSICS SENSE approach. Death Star I Attack, Battle of Hoth, Escape from Hoth, Battle of Endor, Battle of Scarif, Escape from Naboo, Battle of Geonosis all fall to the same issues.

[drifand]

I would avoid ithe obvious if possible, after all I enjoyed tfa with no issues.
However like I said these were very minor things.

[philby]

Thoughts...


* Rey being a nobody:

* Luke being the fallen hero.



With these two, I have no problem with the idea and the themes. I particularly love the part where Luke talks about the folly of the Jedi and that the Force does not belong to them. However, I just don't like that introduction where he throws the hilt away and walks off. It just feels like too much of a slap in the face :p

Rey being a nobody is fine. It is annoying though when the previous movie makes you think she isn't. The star wars saga is about the Skywalker family. The lightsabre beckons to her. The ghosts in the vision talk to her, by name. The way Maz asks "Who's the girl?" The way Han and Chewie act around her make me think they know something about her... These things absolutely deliberately make you speculate and get excited and come up with ideas and generate hype. I don't think it is a good payoff for the buildup.

[drifand]

With these two, I have no problem with the idea and the themes. I particularly love the part where Luke talks about the folly of the Jedi and that the Force does not belong to them. However, I just don't like that introduction where he throws the hilt away and walks off. It just feels like too much of a slap in the face :p

Rey being a nobody is fine. It is annoying though when the previous movie makes you think she isn't. The star wars saga is about the Skywalker family. The lightsabre beckons to her. The ghosts in the vision talk to her, by name. The way Maz asks "Who's the girl?" The way Han and Chewie act around her make me think they know something about her... These things absolutely deliberately make you speculate and get excited and come up with ideas and generate hype. I don't think it is a good payoff for the buildup.

Hence I felt this is a bad trilogy altogether. One episode doesnt follow the other. It doesn't connect well. The two aspects are okay, I don't think they are good decisions but I am fine. This is the only trilogy that felt disjoint with no sense of real direction. Rian's story if told in a proper manner would have been fine and would have less criticism.

Throwing the lightsaber was one thing, some didn't like the hand dusting off his shoulder since it was fake to begin with for the last scene but is a nick pick <I get it they wanted some humor.

But here's the thing, JJ's way was to make you excited and speculate. Rian on the other hand goes nah....this is what happens without the "why" and the "hows" and ends there with no tease to the next episode. < Technically my take was to just leave Luke fall to the ground and leave the audience hanging. (sure he dies but it gives the fan that moment and they will pay to watch the next episode)

Actually it did payoff because everyone who managed to score TFA up to 88% on rotten tomatoes went full on to watch TLJ but only to be let down because Rian failed to connect the dots. This is like one of those back in my days composition writing where they give you a part of a paragraph and you continue the story. While.....the paragraph could give it an obvious theme like a day in the zoo.....you changed it to a kidnapping episode. And this is something I felt similar happened here. Some will like it others will say thats totally out of point.

My overall thoughts are more mainly how episode nine ends and whether it brings everyone back on to the same page of liking Star Wars rather than a fragmented brand at the moment. Till the next episode.

[GoktimusPrime]

... Or you can actually buy just one DVD and re-watch the movie repeatedly to your heart's content.
Gah, I meant to say "watched" repeatedly. Yay post long road-trip fatigued brain. :p (better to be posting online fatigued than driving fatigued)

Rey being a nobody is fine. It is annoying though when the previous movie makes you think she isn't. The star wars saga is about the Skywalker family. The lightsabre beckons to her. The ghosts in the vision talk to her, by name. The way Maz asks "Who's the girl?" The way Han and Chewie act around her make me think they know something about her... These things absolutely deliberately make you speculate and get excited and come up with ideas and generate hype. I don't think it is a good payoff for the buildup.
See, I didn't speculate that at all, even upon watching The Force Awakens in cinemas. The fact that her parents were nobody came as no real surprise to me.

The stories of Star Wars is basically about the Hero's Journey. However the main difference is that Rey's journey is also a quest for belonging. Luke didn't really have this element so much in his journey, his was a more straightforward adventure quest. Luke already had a family on Tatooine. He had a family and a home. He was just really bored and wasn't into following his Uncle's footsteps into becoming a moisture farmer, but he was never destitute. Owen and Beru did their best to love and raise him as a son, and even Obi-Wan Kenobi watched out for him.

Rey was sold into slavery as a child. And while she may have earned her freedom later, she still lived as a lowly junk scavenger to scrape a living. She had no family and doesn't appear to have any friends. Her life was even worse than Anakin's. At least Anakin had his loving mother and was friends with the other slave kids. Heck, even Watto treated him better than Unkar Platt did to Rey. Anakin also wasn't searching for belonging, he left Tatooine with a keen desire to help others. If anything, it was his sense of belonging and attachment to his mother which he would later transfer to Padmé that was ultimately used by Palpatine to seduce Anakin to the Dark Side.

If Rey's parents had been significant people and related to the Skywalkers then it would just be regurgitating what we've seen before with Anakin, Luke and even Kylo Ren. Rey offers us something new and different. And for a Force-sensitive being like Maz to look at Rey and not know who she is also suggests that she's unrelated to the Skywalkers IMO.

People criticised the Prequels for echoing the Original Trilogy. They criticised the Force Awakens for mirroring plot elements from A New Hope. The Last Jedi gives us something completely new - and sure, it's not perfect - but fans still whinge about it. If you look at the Original Trilogy the one movie that's cited by many fans as being the best movie (Empire) also has the most unique story. No Death Stars in that film.

[drifand]

People criticised the Prequels for echoing the Original Trilogy. They criticised the Force Awakens for mirroring plot elements from A New Hope. The Last Jedi gives us something completely new - and sure, it's not perfect - but fans still whinge about it. If you look at the Original Trilogy the one movie that's cited by many fans as being the best movie (Empire) also has the most unique story. No Death Stars in that film.[/QUOTE]

The differences here are great, Step back, look at rotten tomatoes score despite the criticism for The Force Awakens.

Now look at The Last Jedi's score. < It is currently worse than The Phantom menace.

When you point out such things but the criticism doesn't affect the majority of the audience ratings at all it shows that nobody is seriously bugged by the rehash idea. The thing is, that movie still works in the end.

The Last Jedi as according to sources, Rian already stared writing even without watching TFA, now that is a seriously flawed script as he didn't cared about what was introduced by JJ. None of the other trilogy feels like this, people are fine with differences, not disjoint story telling. The lack of how's and why's and continue to go with remaining mysterious doesn't really work.

There has been always an assumption that is ONLY the fans, I am not sure why they didn't take into account of general audiences who watched TFA and not the OT stuff. To be honestly , you can minus off Luke in TLJ and is still boring movie. I don't think Marvel's Infinity war is going to score like this.
You can tell Rian isn't experience at all in making a movie.

Its not about being fresh, is about good content that people can follow through without needing to go home and think, what just happened? That were good content in TLJ but there was just more bad stuff happening too often making the movie no longer enjoyable. Rian doesnt care what people says, he will continue with this is my movie.

If this was a TV series, heck there isn't anything I would complain about as they will probably explain more later. This is a trilogy, and this is the only episode that every bugs me compared to any other Star Wars movie so far.

[SharkyMcShark]

My issue with JJ and his 'Mystery Box' approach is that he's shown that he's quite happy to throw out a bunch of hooks and threads but never resolve them. Lost is a good example of this.

I'm keen for Ep 9, mainly to find out what happens next. To me part of the brilliance of TLJ is that it was the polar opposite in style to JJ's TFA. A lot of the expository mysteries have been settled* and others put to the side**.

What we've got now is a story to tell - the light side protege and the dark side scion are left without masters and with no guidance. Both are torn to a certain extent - we've seen Rey give over to anger in both TFA and TLJ in moments of conflict, and we've seen that Kylo is also a deeply fractured character who has been betrayed by every parental figure he's ever had. Both are now in leadership positions, as Kylo is the Supreme Leader and Rey is now the titular last Jedi.

I'm excited to see where the story goes, which is the difference between TFA and TLJ. TFA, for all the mystery boxes it posited, never really got me keen to see what happens next.

*Snoke, Rey's parentage, Luke's fate, what happened to Luke's Jedi Academy
**Knights of Ren, the Legacy Saber calling to Rey, how Snoke turned Kylo

[i_amtrunks]

I'm hoping that they let some random nobody kill off Ren in the ninth movie, just to really mess up expectations.

If it were to happen it'd be after he "saved" Rey or someone else, some pseudo-heroic moment... :rolleyes: :p

[drifand]

I'm hoping that they let some random nobody kill off Ren in the ninth movie, just to really mess up expectations.

If it were to happen it'd be after he "saved" Rey or someone else, some pseudo-heroic moment... :rolleyes: :p

Hux could kill him. I think no point speculating and just watch I guess.
If they want the Reylo approach then a new villain has to come along beating anyone and doesnt gives a damn you are dark side or light. Kylo probably looses mum and she tells him to work with Rey as dying wish and save the galaxy. But I dunno, make it even more emotional then it would be Rey discovering she has enough power to stop the villain but not enough to kill and Kylo sacrifices himself to redeem and dies, end of episode Rey is pregnant. Typical fantasy ending. lol

JJ is to be blamed slightly for not giving direction and mystery box style. In fact the three episodes should have been written and set not wing it.

[SharkyMcShark]

In fact the three episodes should have been written and set not wing it.

I can agree on that. You'd think they'd have gotten the three directors commissioned at the start of this (JJ, RJ and Colin Trevorrow) and their writers together to sort something out right at the start.

[Ralph Wiggum]

This is Disney we’re talking about. They didn’t hesitate to fire the original directors of the upcoming Solo movie because the directors encouraged improvisation and went off script, diverging from Disney’s vision. Everything about TLJ was scrutinised and given the tick of approval; Rian was not some wildcard who caught the head honchos at Disney off guard. Mark Hamill made it very clear (on record) that he didn’t like Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, but had to follow Rian’s vision. Disney have given Rian another trilogy to make, thats how confident they were in him.

[philby]

Mark Hamill made it very clear (on record) that he didn’t like Luke’s portrayal in TLJ, but had to follow Rian’s vision. Disney have given Rian another trilogy to make, thats how confident they were in him.

He also retracted that statement and said it was more like an initial disapproval that was then later given more detail and he then was on-board with it.

[drifand]

He also retracted that statement and said it was more like an initial disapproval that was then later given more detail and he then was on-board with it.

His pay might be at stake, after all you do want to continue acting in next episode. Don't forget, he was on the same page of how Luke was supposed to be with the former director.

First reaction is normally the correct one. I don't blame him for retracting.

Disney being confident on Rian's Trilogy, may be a bad one. To me, is how his editing and story telling that actually is the problem. TLJ can pass in story, is the editing and how the story is being told has failed. But hey, I am just an audience, we vote with our wallets. ATM is how episode nine concludes, it decides for me, whether I like this trilogy at all.

Someone explain to me How Rian J was picked to do TLJ? I thought he has no experience at all with Sci Fi? All he did was Looper?
I mean look at JJ, that I can understand why he can touch Star Wars, But Rian? Looper? urm how the heck he got this?

[Ralph Wiggum]

Obviously Disney was sold on the pitch and vision Rian gave for The Last Jedi. You don’t need sci fi experience to make a sci fi movie. Clearly they cared more for the story and themes. Star Wars isn’t even sci fi, its a space fantasy.

Disney have had an awesome run in picking relatively unknown directors with a limited experience with big blockbusters. Look at the Marvel Cinematic Universe with the Russo Brothers (Captain America 2 & 3), James Gunn (Guardians of the Galaxy) and Taika Waititi (Thor 3).

If every studio played it safe, we’d get Spielberg, Nolan, Bay (j/k), Ridley, Howard, Del Toro et al directing all the good stuff.

[drifand]

Well...story was off if thats was the main goal, it is the actually the main issue where people are not happy. The special effect looks great. And here's the thing, its just proven you do need the experience in order to do Star Wars. But anyway, thats done and dusted.

Marvel was a success is because the characters stay true to what they are, but I am sure some have agreed the latest spiderman is a bit off in terms of story.
Nolan wasn't anything super, he was actually taking the best out of the comic and making it real for his Batman series, thats why it worked and when you look at Justice League, it miles apart because the tone of the movie is totally different. pretty sure if they made Captain America a girl might screwed things up.

[MEEEGGGAAATTTRRROOONNN!!!]

His pay might be at stake, after all you do want to continue acting in next episode. Don't forget, he was on the same page of how Luke was supposed to be with the former director.

First reaction is normally the correct one. I don't blame him for retracting.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if Disney applied pressure on him to backtrack. It's bad PR when an iconic star of the series says the new movie sucks.

[SharkyMcShark]

Someone explain to me How Rian J was picked to do TLJ? I thought he has no experience at all with Sci Fi? All he did was Looper?
I mean look at JJ, that I can understand why he can touch Star Wars, But Rian? Looper? urm how the heck he got this?

Looper is one of the best original science fiction movies to have come out in the 21st century.

He also directed some of the most critically acclaimed episodes of Breaking Bad.

Brick is commonly cited as a very very good recent example of neo-noir.

The Brothers Bloom was an odd film, but I found it enjoyable on the whole.


And here's the thing, its just proven you do need the experience in order to do Star Wars. But anyway, thats done and dusted.

It's not proven.

Irvin Kershner, the director of the Empire Strikes Back, had never previously directed a science fiction film either, having stuck mainly to comedies and westerns. Richard Marquand, of Return of the Jedi fame, had not directed any science fiction films. Gareth Edwards had directed a grand total of two films, both of which were monster movies (Godzilla and Monster).

** This is without even getting into the discussion about how Star Wars is not science fiction**


Star Wars isn’t even sci fi, its a space fantasy.


Thankyou :)


Marvel was a success is because the characters stay true to what they are, but I am sure some have agreed the latest spiderman is a bit off in terms of story.
Nolan wasn't anything super, he was actually taking the best out of the comic and making it real for his Batman series, thats why it worked and when you look at Justice League, it miles apart because the tone of the movie is totally different. pretty sure if they made Captain America a girl might screwed things up.

The biggest problem in the MCU right now is that over time, and as each character gets more movies, they each slowly turn into Tony Stark ++. Quippy, quick witted, self-deprecating, willing to bend the rules with a smile for the greater good. That essentially covers off the current iterations of Stark, Thor, Starlord, Spiderman and arguably Captain America.

You're right that a large part of the reason that Nolan's Batman films worked is because he stuck to Bruce Wayne's character - broody, morose, self martyring. Nolan didn't try and make him the average MCU hero.



If every studio played it safe, we’d get Spielberg, Nolan, Bay (j/k), Ridley, Howard, Del Toro et al directing all the good stuff.

Not to mention Abrams!

[drifand]

Well we should look forward to episode nine. hope it will be a success:).

[griffin]

Honest trailers from a month ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxgKBUK4wQ), with almost nothing good to say about the movie.

[GoktimusPrime]

You're right that a large part of the reason that Nolan's Batman films worked is because he stuck to Bruce Wayne's character - broody, morose, self martyring. Nolan didn't try and make him the average MCU hero.
It's not just that. Man of Steel made Superman into a broody, morose and self-martyring character too, and a lot of fans disliked it. What works for Batman doesn't necessarily work for Superman. I think what worked more in Nolan's Batman films was that he never allowed the stories to have more than one protagonist. I read somewhere that he was asked early on to tie in Batman with other DC franchises in hopes of building a Justice League movie but Nolan refused. And from a story-telling POV you can understand why. He only wanted the story to just focus on Batman and Batman alone as its central protagonist. Making Batman share the limelight with other heroes and heroines means splitting that focus due to the inclusion of an ensemble cast.

Having said that, I personally think that the MCU movies do well considering that they are doing stories with large ensemble casts. Certainly a lot better than what Michael Bay does with Transformers where so many of the Autobots and Decepticons are barely distinguishable from each other and become terribly forgettable as people. And Avengers Infinity War is the mother of them as it basically stars everyone! But the film still gives enough spotlight on each hero and heroine - none of them feel like set pieces unlike say Jolt. Ask your average non-Transformers fan who've seen ROTF and see if they remember who Jolt is and describe anything about him.

Nolan created Batman movies which were great as pieces of film literature, no doubt. But the MCU has given fans what they've wanted, and while these movies are by no means story-telling masterpieces they are just fun and entertaining movies to watch.

Sorry, were we talking about Star Wars? :p

In regards to The Last Jedi, aside from the Casino Planet scene, I think the rest of the movie is fine. When The Force Awakens came out people accused it of copying the basic plot of A New Hope - fans complain. The Last Jedi has given us something that's really different from other Star Wars movies - fans complain. :rolleyes: And as bold as TLJ is, the Sequels are still in the same spirit as the Original Trilogy so far.
Act 1: emerging out of a period of darkness there is a rebellion/resistance and a new hero/heroine arises to give the galaxy a new hope.
Act 2: the Empire/First Order Strikes Back. The goodies are pushed to the brink. The story ends on a downer with a glimpse of hope for the future.
Act 3: Yub nub? :p Time will tell if Episode IX will mirror the spirit of Episode VI.

I can appreciate that these filmmakers have the unenviable task of making movies that are similar enough to the Original Trilogy to make fans happy, but at the same time different enough to make fans happy. Only that fans are never happy, cos each new Star Wars movie that comes out is the worst ever. Brace yourself for the fan-hate for Solo -- worst Star Wars... ever!

[Trent]

Honest trailers from a month ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paxgKBUK4wQ), with almost nothing good to say about the movie.

Missed the joke huh Griff?

;)

[griffin]

When The Force Awakens came out people accused it of copying the basic plot of A New Hope - fans complain. The Last Jedi has given us something that's really different from other Star Wars movies - fans complain.


The feeling I got when I saw TLJ is that it was similar to ESB... with the Empire chasing evacuating Rebels, and a Jedi in training... and left at the end with a dire situation for the Rebels (not a victory).
After having ep7 feeling like ep4, I was annoyed that ep8 felt like ep5... because it meant the people at Disney don't care about the new franchise they bought, to give us something original.


Missed the joke huh Griff?

;)

I get the point of Honest Trailers, but it usually savages really bad movies this bad... and if there are redeeming features, there will be a mention, or left out - it felt like no character or plot device was left untouched in this HT.
And that's one reason I like HT, because they will usually say why things are bad, and not just say something sucked like an internet troll.

[Trent]

The feeling I got when I saw TLJ is that it was similar to ESB... with the Empire chasing evacuating Rebels, and a Jedi in training... and left at the end with a dire situation for the Rebels (not a victory).
After having ep7 feeling like ep4, I was annoyed that ep8 felt like ep5... because it meant the people at Disney don't care about the new franchise they bought, to give us something original.



I get the point of Honest Trailers, but it usually savages really bad movies this bad... and if there are redeeming features, there will be a mention, or left out - it felt like no character or plot device was left untouched in this HT.
And that's one reason I like HT, because they will usually say why things are bad, and not just say something sucked like an internet troll.

Well, I suppose the first thing to point out is that your opinion of whether TLJ was “this bad” is pretty subjective. I personally think it is one of the better Star Wars movies and poops over any of the prequel movies. And that is the point of the HT, rather than making fun of the movie itself, it makes fun of just how polarising the movie was. Just look at the fact that they used two narrators representing polar opposites of opinions. They point out both the bad and the good in the movie. Is the movie full of plot holes? Of course, just like any other Star Wars movie. Does it waste out time with boring sub plots? Well, yes, so does every prequel movie. Does it follow the basic formula of eps 4, 5 and 6? Yes. But again, so do the prequels.

I know I bang on about this but it just amazes me how so many people shit all over Rian Johnson and TLJ acting like he ruined SW. But people forget, It was already ruined by George Lucas with Pod Racing, Jar Jar Binks, Hayden Christiansen, The entirety of Attack of the Clones, The Jedi Council, How Padme died. I could go on. The beauty of TLJ is that Rian actively addresses the stupidity of the Jedi Council. He echos the things I’ve been shaking my head at for years and tries to correct them like how only Skywalkers can be powerful Jedi. He tried something new within the constraints he had and it worked. It just wasn’t what the fandom had built it up to be.

But I understand how others don’t necessarily like the direction. The plot devices left unexplored from TFA was a little disappointing but I think what was gained in unshackling the characters and story from predetermined outcomes was well worth it.

[drifand]

My main issue is the story wasn’t told properly.

I don’t feel sorry for Rian because he has been outright very defensive about his decisions. Meaning to say this movie can’t be as any more perfect than what he has produced which I would disagree and could have made it better even staying true to his ideas.

Before tlj I didn’t know who is Rian Johnson, now I know very well but not for the positive reasons unfortunately.

[kurdt_the_goat]

I just watched this finally having avoided all spoilers! Was definitely a weird one. Felt like Luke, like Han in the previous one was a bit too much comedic relief in places. But i thought the way he went at the end was pretty bad ass. Bad ass when I thought he was actually there and moreso whrn i realised he probably wasn't. That's a cool new jedi skill to introduce, afaik/can remember. Emperor would have saved a lot on holo-calls if he could have done that!

Rey was funny in that, about half way through i said to my wife there's only really 2 possibilities here, she's Kylo's sister or her parents are nobodies since who the hell would they be otherwise lol. Sure enough, nobodies with that exact wording haha.

Snoke getting split was umm ok are you sure there's going to be a ninth one? Lol felt near the end this director had it in for the next and was deliberately trying to wrap it up and make no story threads to continue on from. Don't learn a thing about how he came to be or anything. Did they leave it in a book or comic or something? Had some cool powers and cruelty but nothing as cool as Palpatine's character by Ep3. POWARRRR!

Leia going all Matrix ghost was pretty messed up. Purple hair lady why is your hair purple and annoying to look at? I forget the name of ace x wing guy cause he barely did anything here except explain the obvious at the end.

As a fan of sci fi I still enjoyed it, space ships and stuff is cool. Im not a ruined my childhood kind of guy but it definitely could have been better. Tbh for all the prequel's faults i would have preferered Lucas still making these. His still felt like Star Wars while these just seem like they're set in the universe or something and are kinda self aware of and mocking it. So far i like Rogue One the best for being wholly new and separate.

[Jetfire in the sky]

I just watched this finally having avoided all spoilers! Was definitely a weird one. Felt like Luke, like Han in the previous one was a bit too much comedic relief in places. But i thought the way he went at the end was pretty bad ass. Bad ass when I thought he was actually there and moreso whrn i realised he probably wasn't. That's a cool new jedi skill to introduce, afaik/can remember. Emperor would have saved a lot on holo-calls if he could have done that!

Rey was funny in that, about half way through i said to my wife there's only really 2 possibilities here, she's Kylo's sister or her parents are nobodies since who the hell would they be otherwise lol. Sure enough, nobodies with that exact wording haha.

Snoke getting split was umm ok are you sure there's going to be a ninth one? Lol felt near the end this director had it in for the next and was deliberately trying to wrap it up and make no story threads to continue on from. Don't learn a thing about how he came to be or anything. Did they leave it in a book or comic or something? Had some cool powers and cruelty but nothing as cool as Palpatine's character by Ep3. POWARRRR!

Leia going all Matrix ghost was pretty messed up. Purple hair lady why is your hair purple and annoying to look at? I forget the name of ace x wing guy cause he barely did anything here except explain the obvious at the end.

As a fan of sci fi I still enjoyed it, space ships and stuff is cool. Im not a ruined my childhood kind of guy but it definitely could have been better. Tbh for all the prequel's faults i would have preferered Lucas still making these. His still felt like Star Wars while these just seem like they're set in the universe or something and are kinda self aware of and mocking it. So far i like Rogue One the best for being wholly new and separate.


With all the hoo haa that's being going on the webs I am amazed that you missed spoilers for this long :eek:
When Luke did the force projection thing, the first thing I noticed was his hair was not grey anymore so I figured something was up. Overall I think the movie is all over the place and easily the worst of all SW movies, I love Rebels and The Clone Wars and have read a number of the new canon novels. I actually liked how they explored different force abilities in TLJ, which movie only SW fans probably wouldn't like because the force is heavily explored in the Rebels and TCW.

[SharkyMcShark]

If anyone is on the fence about getting the bluray, I can heartily recommend it.

I skipped the TFA and Rogue One home releases due to a dearth of special features. I picked up TLJ on bluray on sale at Coles of all places - apparently I can't be trusted to do the weekly shopping on my own. It has a whole special features disc, including feature length documentary and a bunch of featurettes all introduced by Rian Johnson.

Regardless of whether you like the film or not it has to be said that this is the kind of thing home releases need to be doing to stand out in the digital age.

[bowspearer]

My main issue is the story wasn’t told properly.

I don’t feel sorry for Rian because he has been outright very defensive about his decisions. Meaning to say this movie can’t be as any more perfect than what he has produced which I would disagree and could have made it better even staying true to his ideas.

Before tlj I didn’t know who is Rian Johnson, now I know very well but not for the positive reasons unfortunately.

Interesting that you bring it up. This film editor (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBl_W0VLuoWoiVdjrSlZ8xQ) is giving Rian Johnson the finger by re-editing the entire film and so far it's looking very promising.

[SharkyMcShark]

Interesting that you bring it up. This film editor (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBl_W0VLuoWoiVdjrSlZ8xQ) is giving Rian Johnson the finger by re-editing the entire film and so far it's looking very promising.

That should be interesting to follow. Not a fan of the use of the force theme in that scene though.

I'm a big advocate of fan edits in general. The gold standard has to be the Star Wars Revisisted project - I prefer the adywan versions of ANH and ESB over the current Lucasfilm approved cuts.

(not really sure why it has to be framed as 'giving Rian Johnson the finger'?)

[bowspearer]

(not really sure why it has to be framed as 'giving Rian Johnson the finger'?)

I was paraphrasing the guy doing it. In an interview he did - I think it was with Geeks and Gamers, that was the exact turn of phrase he used.

[shockNwave]

Recently watched TLJ for a second time. Definitely not aging like a fine wine and is aging worse than TFA. But the lightspeed kamikaze attack on Snoke's ship remains priceless and the best scene in the film.:)

[bowspearer]

Recently watched TLJ for a second time. Definitely not aging like a fine wine and is aging worse than TFA.

So you mean it's aging like milk? :D

[philby]

I saw it once at the cinema at midnight then a 2nd time on blu-ray. I definitely appreciated it more the 2nd time, after the hubbub and things settled down and seeing some articles. I will watch it again for sure though as well.
I have no gripes with Luke's portrayal or anything like that. I think some of the execution of ideas just may not have been that great.

[shockNwave]

So you mean it's aging like milk? :D

As I said under the Solo thread; it's aging like a limburger but milk will do.

[Bidoofdude]

That should be interesting to follow. Not a fan of the use of the force theme in that scene though.

I'm a big advocate of fan edits in general. The gold standard has to be the Star Wars Revisisted project - I prefer the adywan versions of ANH and ESB over the current Lucasfilm approved cuts.

(not really sure why it has to be framed as 'giving Rian Johnson the finger'?)

The Force theme was originally Luke's theme, but ended up so overused that it became the theme for the force. It's probably my favourite piece out of the lot, but I'll be damned if they haven't run it into the ground.

[shockNwave]

The Force theme was originally Luke's theme, but ended up so overused that it became the theme for the force. It's probably my favourite piece out of the lot, but I'll be damned if they haven't run it into the ground.

Originally there was the Emperor's theme but after it was used as Darth Maul's/Darth Sidious' theme in TPM it became the theme of the dark side of the force from that point onwards.
On one hand it would help if John William's could be more creative but on the other hand taking risks could blow up in John's face if the new theme is substandard.

[GoktimusPrime]

From the Rise of Skywalker Spoiler discussion thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/26849-Star-Wars-Rise-of-Skywalker-*****SPOILER-THREAD*****?p=619363#post619363):

Re: Canto Bite, there are two things to consider

1) It was meant to fail. It was a dogfaeces plan, that then failed and got a bunch of people killed, same as the plan to attack the Dreadnought at the start of the film. It's part of Poe's arc. He has to learn that you can't lead by flying by the seat of your pants. You can't lead on rash impulse. That might get you by as a fighter pilot, but it gets people hurt when you apply it to leading. As with Luke in ESB, the film bothers to show him and his plans failing. I'm not saying its my favourite section in any Star Wars film, but it has a purpose. Ironically, to say it was pointless and led to nothing is both to miss the point entirely but also kind of get it. It doesn't move the plot forward - in fact it hinders our protagonists. It absolutely moves Poe's character forward though.

2) It really doesn't take that much screen time up. It's literally two sections. The first is that they land and get chucked in jail. The second is when they escape from prison and free the planet. It's not like it's cutting back for forth for the whole middle third of the film.
As you've just pointed out, in those other examples, the failure was an important part of the character's development. It was meant to be painful lesson for Poe to care about the wellbeing of those under his command and not blindly sacrifice his troops for the sake of completing missions. Otherwise they'd be no better than the First Order who treat their soldiers as entirely expendable resources (and strips them of their humanity). I'm not entirely sure what Finn and Rose's personal journeys were with the Canto Bite scene, and especially if it was worth the narrative diversion.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with Poe's journey either... the whole mutiny side-plot seemed unnecessary. I get that it's telling us that he's trying to grow and learn as a leader, but they already accomplished that with the Dreadnought bombing scene. Extending it with the mutiny thing seemed unnecessary (again, less is more) and also illogical from a story POV. Why didn't Leia and Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was? Especially when he had guns pointed at Holdo. We see that when Poe discovers Holdo's plan he actually thinks it's a good one and wholeheartedly agrees with it. Why didn't they just do this from the beginning? Geez... :rolleyes:


Not necessarily - the First Order only picked up the Resistance transports because DJ sold them out to save himself, which he wouldn't have been able to do if Rosefinn hadn't recruited him and then let him overhear Poe talking about them having cloaked ships. I mean sure somebody on the Supercalifragilistic might've thought to scan for cloaks anyway just in case (you'd think that'd be routine, but maybe once you've built a ship 60km wide there's not much left in the budget for repairing wear-and-tear on the scanners so they save money by just having a guy look out the window instead), but just from what's on screen it looks like Holdo's original plan (the one that didn't involve ramming) might've worked. Of course they'd still have needed somebody to come pick them up, but they'd have had more time to play with while the First Order chased an empty cruiser, and "Hey can we get an Uber?" might have gotten a better response from the Resistance's so-called allies than "Hey giant laser pointed at us and we're doomed, wanna come join in?"
This makes me dislike the Canto Bite side-quest even more now. :D

[SharkyMcShark]

From the Rise of Skywalker Spoiler discussion thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/26849-Star-Wars-Rise-of-Skywalker-*****SPOILER-THREAD*****?p=619363#post619363):

As you've just pointed out, in those other examples, the failure was an important part of the character's development. It was meant to be painful lesson for Poe to care about the wellbeing of those under his command and not blindly sacrifice his troops for the sake of completing missions. Otherwise they'd be no better than the First Order who treat their soldiers as entirely expendable resources (and strips them of their humanity). I'm not entirely sure what Finn and Rose's personal journeys were with the Canto Bite scene, and especially if it was worth the narrative diversion.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with Poe's journey either... the whole mutiny side-plot seemed unnecessary. I get that it's telling us that he's trying to grow and learn as a leader, but they already accomplished that with the Dreadnought bombing scene. Extending it with the mutiny thing seemed unnecessary (again, less is more) and also illogical from a story POV. Why didn't Leia and Holdo just tell Poe what the plan was? Especially when he had guns pointed at Holdo. We see that when Poe discovers Holdo's plan he actually thinks it's a good one and wholeheartedly agrees with it. Why didn't they just do this from the beginning? Geez... :rolleyes:


Poe's journey is essentially learning that no matter how good his intentions are, he can't lead on impulse and has to consider the bigger picture, and the film shows us this by repeating a pattern three times, but changing the payoff at the end of show that he's learned.

The first time is the Dreadnought assault. His heart is in the right place, but he failed to consider the bigger picture by launching an assault on the capital ship instead of just distracting them to give the fleet time to escape, in doing so going directly against the orders of General Leia. All of the Resistance bomber wing is destroyed, as is most of their fighter corps. At the end someone has to sacrifice their life to cover for his failure (Paige).

The second time is the hacker plan and the mutiny. Again he has good intentions, but he acts without considering the big picture (including just how dumb the plan was). People die when the plan falls apart, and someone has to sacrifice their life to cover for his failure (Holdo). The importance of this was showing that he wants to lead outside the cockpit too, not just lead a fighter wing.

Finally, he leads the ski-speeder charge against the First Order. Realising the attack isn't going to work, he calls the survivors back, showing that he's learned from the errors he had made previously. Because he's learned, no one has to sacrifice themselves to cover for him (Finn doesn't have to suicide ram the First Order cannon). He's placed in the same position that he himself had put Leia in at the start of the film - Finn is egging him on to rush to help Luke, but Poe sees the bigger picture, being that the Resistance need to get the hell out of there.

(I don't meant to demean you by spelling all this out, I just enjoy that it's the same process each time - rash action, defy superior who has the bigger picture in mind, someone has to sacrifice themselves)

It's not a storyline without issue. You're right that it would have been more logical from an audience point of view for Holdo to tell Poe what her plan was, or to have a 'spy in the fleet' storyline like the BSG episode that inspired the hyperspace tracking thing, if only to justify why she didn't tell him (and maybe give more context to the throwaway "we tracked their fleet" in TFA that led to the First Order finding their base). All I can offer is that Poe had been demoted after the most disastrous of Pyrrhic victories, which clearly played into Holdo's initial disdain for him. Also, "we ran a decloacking scan" is one of the worst lines of dialogue in any of these films, and what infuriates me is that it so easily could have been fixed. Just say that the hacker told them how to calibrate their scanners, anything. Don't just make out that you pressed the button that reveals invisible things. Why aren't you pressing that button all the time? Why isn't it glued down? It falls just the wrong side of 'it's a fantasy film, give them the benefit of the doubt' for me.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Holdo "wholeheartedly agreed" with his plan either. She said she liked his spirit, and only after he was out of commission. The Resistance is an armed force, and she was his superior officer. I've read conflicting thoughts on this from members of armed forces on various forums and social media - some say that they wholeheartedly understood where Holdo was coming from and that she didn't need to justify herself to Poe, and others saying the opposite.

Re: Finn - I agree that Finn was sidelined. TLJ was a film with three primary focus characters - Rey, Kylo and Poe. There are other characters with arcs in the film (such as Luke, and indeed Finn) but they're secondary to the primary three. To be fair Finn did still have an arc - through both TFA and TLJ it was the same as Han's through ANH and ESB. He went from being in it just for himself at the start of the first film, to in primarily for his friends by beginning of the second film. By the end of the second film he's in it for cause itself, as opposed to just his own friends. There's progression there, even if he's not a focus character.

Re: Rose - I'm not sure how much of an proper story arc she was in a position to have, in the same way that supporting characters appearing primarily in one of these films never seem to get development. She essentially goes in the same basket as Lando in ESB - he's there, he interacts with and supports our heroes, but there's no arc to his character so to speak. Same as Qui Gon in TPM, for example, or even Chewbacca.

[Lord_Zed]

Gotta say, since watching The Rise of Skywalker I like TLJ a lot better, because at least it had some themes and character stuff in it.