G1 Comic Art

[GoktimusPrime]

This thread is for the discussion of G1 (1984-1992) comic book art and artists, as spawned from this thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=2582).
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Not really. Andrew Wildman nor Geoff Senior rate much in my book.
Yes, but that's your individual opinion. What I'm saying is that, according to the common/general fan consensus as illustrated by annual results from the Trannies year after year after year, the fandom as a collective rate Wildman and Senior as their two favourite artists from G1.

I mean, I personally like Beast Machines, but I recognise that it's just my own individual opinion and that the fandom as a collective doesn't rate it very highly. And if I were going to start talking about my liking of Beast Machines, I would be required to back it up as it would be a bold statement in terms of going against the common consensus.


The TF fandom has expanded since and while the stories from that era are celebrated by fans, I think that there are modern sensibilities at play now and many of the returned fans of the last few years are more inclined to Don Figueroa style than a Senior one.
That's more retro-G1 than actual G1. And none of this stuff existed when the Trannies Awards were conducted. Someone might need to conduct another survey - it would need to be quite extensive (i.e.: across several communities from around the world).


There's been an evolution in Transformers art and I think it would be naive to ignore that. Senior was a product of his times but if he drew modern stuff, that would severely put many like myself off. Maybe its the older fans who will like him but I certainly feel they are creatures of the past.
Yes, but thisroller's thread topic specifies "TF comics in the 80s" (and it would cover the early 90s too as the TF comics did go into 1993), so we need to be looking at comics from that era in context of that era.


Can't stand black and white. I like b&w to look at the artists raw details but generally I do not like buying a B&W unless it fits the book. Transformers needs to explode off the page. They're machines and futuristic. That's part of the appeal. Drab ol' B&W steal the life out of them.
Colour really doesn't help with the colourist is as poor as Nel Yomtov. I would much rather have a well done black and white comic over a poorly coloured comic any day.

It also depends on the artist - some artists' work just looks better in black and white than colour. A good example is the artist from the Transformers G.I. Joe series from Dreamwave that was set during the 2nd World War. I collected the original issues which were coloured and I thought the art looked kinda "messy" to me. Then I saw the reprint in black and white and I gotta say that the black and white version looks beautiful. If not for the fact that I already have the colour version, I would've bought that black and white print.

A lot of mangaka's work look better in black and white too. I remember when manga was just beginning to creep into local comic stores, there were some publishers who felt the need to colour in the English-translated manga... it looked horrid.

And really good colouring doesn't compensate for shoddy artwork... you all know that I'm no fan of Pat Lee's art, but I think Dreamwave did a good job colouring his work. In spite of that I still think his art sucks.


One thing I didnt like much of Wildman's art is that his TF's face were too "liquid" and drooly.
That was actually the fault of one of the inkers. I can't remember his name right now, but yeah, there was this one inker that kept on adding spittle, drool etc. to Wildman's pencilling. WEIRD! There was also another inker that added eyeballs (like, black dots) to José Delbo's pencilling too (making Delbo's already sub-par art look worse)!


Sure they have to evoke a certain emotion but giving them cheekbones and all well, they kinda look like humans with painted faces and battle armour on. He started fine but as the series went more on and on it kinda gotten more Fleshy.
Wildman admits that this is because he never set out to draw robots and during the 80s and early 90s he didn't "enjoy" drawing robots. Wildman was an avid fan of X-Men and became a comic artist so that he could draw super-heroes like X-Men. Then he got hired to draw Transformers - apparently he wasn't keen on the idea, but Furman coaxed him into it. So Wildman decided that he would draw Transformers in his way of drawing comic characters - like X-Men!! That's why his Transformers look so human. :)

That's one thing Senior does better than Wildman - Senior sees that he's drawing robots, so he sets about the task to make them look like robots.

Having said that, Wildman draws humans better - and especially super-humans. I really love his rendition of the Neo-Knights (he must've loved drawing them).

[Paulbot]

Tastes change with time.

In 1990 when I looked over the US comics I preferred Wildman's art and tried to emulate it. Now I prefer Senior's couple of issues to Wildman's. Although yes the inker could be blamed for some of the things I dislike in Wildman's art: For a robotic race the Transformers got very very messy in the last ten US G1 issues.

Geoff Senior's UK #83 was the first TF comic I ever bought and to this day I think the art in that issue is just wonderful. (It's the one where Megatron leads the Autobots to capture Scourge).

When I was younger I didn't like Will Simpson's more toy-like art in the UK 70s-100s but now when I read "In The National Interest" I think it's actually quite great.

But I expect my tastes to continue to change. They have with all the other comics I read, the artists I thought were hot in 1993 aren't the same style of artists I like now.

[STL]

Yes, but that's your individual opinion. What I'm saying is that, according to the common/general fan consensus as illustrated by annual results from the Trannies year after year after year, the fandom as a collective rate Wildman and Senior as their two favourite artists from G1.


And your opinion happens to be reliant on a set of results rendered irrelevant by the passage of time. There has been a change. If you peruse the deviant art pages, fan art pages and have a look at whose style is more prevalent and attempted to be eptomised these days. Look at the comics themselves. That in itself is anecdotal evidence of what is preferred these days.

Ultimately though i agree entirely what one likes is up to each individual to determine. And since you're old school, I perfectly appreciate that you and Heroic like Senior. However, to label DD's comment as "bold and controversial" is unfair just b/c you have an attachment to that period is unfair. We're all entitled to our opinions - especially when it comes to art as that is a very subjective matter.



Nobody said Senior is or was the best TF artist around, but I think he certainly is one of the best. Modern sensibilities, whatever that may mean, does not overtake the intrinsic beauty of well done art. Sure Figuroa (and Milne and Guidi and etc) are undeniably good, and do art that is really detailed, but their Transformers sorely lack one thing- life. Their Transformers are stiff and lack a lot of the life, energy and potency of Senior's or Wildman's (in the 80s) Transformers. Gok, I'm not sure if you're with me, but to me that is the distinction.


That's one I've heard a lot of. The "life" that Senior brings. I can see that in the sense of the stretched, far more human faces and rounder curves. But to me, Senior sacrificed realism, futuristic feel, and bulkiness. I was horrified when I saw Senior had overtaken the art chores. The TFs did not feel like robots, feel like. I mean you need to look no further than the image of Jazz beneath Bludgeon Gok posted to see what I mean. The legs are cringeworthy. Senior was basically drawing superheroes but with basic instead and disproportionate curves (as on those covers DD posted) at times to create that life you like. But to me as second rate b/c of how awkward and clutsy his art looked childish. But to you that's life, to me that's not.

To me, I find life in modern art of the big, detailed and bold robots, that are closer to the Japanese styles. We obviously disagree but I feel that this modern art has much more power and attraction and am glad that IDW and DW went the way they did. B/c I doubt I would've persisted w/ the comics if they had.

Wildman though evolved I feel. I liked his 2nd War Within series and I had to look twice once to make sure it was him b/c I could not believe this was the same artist from the 90s. His storytelling wasn't great though I'm not sure if that was a function of a rushed plot or the colouring or him. I haven't seen much of his work since but I can say that I'd like to see more of it.



At least to me, modern day TF art while really detailed, had very little life until EJ Su came along.


I don't mind EJ much. I'm not sure if the colouring but to me he actually comes across as very stiff..

[Paulbot]

However, to label DD's comment as "bold and controversial" is unfair just b/c you have an attachment to that period is unfair. We're all entitled to our opinions - especially when it comes to art as that is a very subjective matter.

It was bold and controversial because it was sure to start this debate again, which it did.

[STL]

It was bold and controversial because it was sure to start this debate again, which it did.

The only reason this debate started again was because of that comment. I'm very cool about what people prefer but I didn't think it deserved a response that amounted to "Well you're out of touch with the rest of the fandom since they absolutely adore Senior":



That's a rather... um... bold and controversial statement. Geoff Senior is widely considered to be the best G1 artist alongside Andrew Wildman according to fan votes in the now defunct annual Trannies awards.


I'm in favour of everyone having their preferences but I don't think you need to try and qualify others opinions and preferences. (Especially when it is based on results that are over a decade old).

And that's all DD was saying, it was -his- preference not a bold and controversial statement. Emphasis mine.



Apart from that crushing disappointment I was also a little miffed that for one issue of my short run they switched to another (and inferior) artist for the battle with Unicron.


But on this topic, I agree, art is evolving and preference will evolve too. I love the G1 Animation style but I doubt that would hold up to today's modern animation very much which is unfortunate as I really liked its classic feel

[TheDirtyDigger]

I love the G1 Animation style but I doubt that would hold up to today's modern animation

Apologies for going off topic here but what I find disappointing about animation is for along time they've always been able to do great stuff.
The Superman cartoon by the Fleischer brothers from the 1940's is fantastically animated as was Akira in the 80's. I wish they had have done the G1 cartoon to such a high standard so that it could 'stand the test of time'.
While it's not bad (apart from some forgettable episodes) it doesn't compare to some modern animation....when it always could have.


Back on topic and every time I walk into my local comic shop I am so tempted to purchase some of the Titan books or other G1 compilations but I always hold back because I find the art and colouring so off-putting that I believe I won't enjoy the story as a whole.
I'd love them to 'digitally remaster' the whole series.:(

[Paulbot]

I'd love them to 'digitally remaster' the whole series.:(

An "Absolute Transformers" something like the "Absolute Sandman" books? That'd be cool.

I have a word doc on my computer from about 1997 detailing which panels would be changed in a "special edition" reprint of Marvel's first issue (like the SW special editions) . It included a blanket "TFs redrawn throughout to match Animation models" :D

[i_amtrunks]

G2 was my first taste of Transformers comics, and I loved both Wildman and Senior's work in that series, each artist brings something to the book that the other does not.

The biggest gripe I have with the G1 Marvel US series was nothing to do with the artists, both have their merits and detractions, it was the substandard inker/colourer Yomtov, who has got to be the only Marvel colourist who is both colour blind and has an IQ under 50. How else could he have screwed up so much so often?

[GoktimusPrime]

By "bold and controversial" I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong or 'out of touch' with your opinions, STL and TDD. Simply that it was different from the general consensus - and often when you do voice opinions that go against the general consensus it tends to start debate. And as Paulbot pointed out, it's precisely what has happened here. There was no negative connotation implied by it though.

For example, my own opinion of Beast Machines is 'controversial' because I actually really like it. But I know that, generally speaking, the fandom doesn't. So I know that if I ever voice my liking for Beast Machines I need to be careful to back it up because I know that I am going against the opinion of the majority of the people in the fandom. It's not to say that my opinion is "wrong" - there's really no such thing as a "right" or "wrong" opinion when it comes to this sort of thing... but I will admit that I am amongst a minority of fans when it comes to being in the Beast Machines "fan club."

Likewise yours and TDD's opinions are perfectly valid... I was merely saying that your opinions do differ from what the majority of the fandom appears to feel. Now the Trannies Awards haven't been held by Rob Jung for several years now, so it's quite possible that tastes have changed. Mind you, the Trannies Awards did have separate voting categories for artists, e.g. Favourite G1 artist, Favourite G2 artist, Favourite All-Time artist etc., so while the results for "Favourite All-Time artist" may have changed I'm not sure if it would have for "Favourite G1 artist" since guys like Figueroa, Su etc. aren't technically G1-era artists (but retro-G1 artists). Trannies never made the distinction as retro-G1 didn't exist at the time, but I think it would only be fair that if there was another poll held that they be separated into the two different categories.

If someone were to come along and say "G1 totally sucks," or even "Beast Wars totally sucks" then that person would be making controversial statements as it goes against what the majority fandom believes in. It doesn't mean that the person isn't entitled to that opinion, but if you are going to make such statements then I think there is an expectation to justify what you're saying.

If someone says "G1 was the best!" then nobody really cares if you back it up or not as it's a commonly agreed upon consensus, but if you say "G1 is the worst," then yeah... it would create debate.

Again, never meant to put down anybody's opinions - sorry if I came across that way.

The Trannies results may be dated, but it's all I have to cite. Afaik nobody else has conducted a survey on a similar scale to garner fandom opinion on TF comic artists since the terminationof the Trannies. We could speculate what current trends may be, but it would be a moot point unless we have access to more up-to-date data.

Furthermore, I'm not saying that it's wrong to compare G1 and contemporary art - although that is beyond the scope of this thread as I've specified it only for 1984-92 era TF art (so if you really want to do it please do it elsewhere).

[liegeprime]

The biggest gripe I have with the G1 Marvel US series was nothing to do with the artists, both have their merits and detractions, it was the substandard inker/colourer Yomtov, who has got to be the only Marvel colourist who is both colour blind and has an IQ under 50. How else could he have screwed up so much so often?


Yeah He often just colored the background bot in a single sweep of colors, LAAAZZYYYYY!

[TheDirtyDigger]

By "bold and controversial" I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong or 'out of touch' with your opinions

All good! :)
I did call Senior's art 'inferior' as opposed to the other artist so I understand your stance on that and the 'controversy'.



I'm not saying that it's wrong to compare G1 and contemporary art - although that is beyond the scope of this thread as I've specified it only for 1984-92 era TF art

Haha...back when I was a youngling reading these (and other comics) I found all the art to be pretty good. With the digital remastering I mentioned and Paulbot's comment I would like to see the original art redone on glossy paper with modern colouring techniques.

[Paulbot]

Yeah He often just colored the background bot in a single sweep of colors, LAAAZZYYYYY!

Block colouring though was pretty common in those days in most comics, and still happens today for background characters even with the most advanced colouring. There are times though that one wishes there was more effort. One that comes to mind is the shot of the Autobots from the Ark on the moon in issue #41. That would be a nicer image if all the Autobots were coloured in and not just the Dinobots, and a few others at the front.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah but it happened far more frequently in the US comics than in the UK ones. The US comics were notorious for its astonishingly poor colouring, whereas it was a rare occurence in the UK comics. Yomtov also put less effort into giving Transformers a "metallic sheen" like some UK colourists did. That was left entirely to the inker. The UK comics were also far less "pixelated" than the US ones.

Galvatron as coloured in the UK comics:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/3/32/Galvatrong1.jpg

Galvatron (II) as coloured in the US comics:
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/0/05/Galvatron2vsmegatron.jpg
...yeah, for some reason Yomtov made him blue. (-_-)

[TheDirtyDigger]

I actually like the second pic of Galvatron there but I think that's to do with the pencilling.
Also my mind interprets that blue to be metallic silver which I guess that is just from years of conditioning i.e. reading comics with shoddy colouring.

[GoktimusPrime]

I actually like the second pic of Galvatron there but I think that's to do with the pencilling.
Yeah I'm purely talking about the colouring. Look at the UK image of Galvatron - you'll notice that Galvatron (and Ultra Magnus too) are coloured in a way that you can see the "light" or "sheen" streaking across the metallic surfaces of their bodies. You'll notice that the background is coloured in far more detail too - with the flames coloured in spatters of red, orange and yellow whereas the background in the US pic is just yellow. Admittedly there's not much going on back there... but Yomtov's colouring of combustion was pretty mediocre and lacklustre compared to his UK counterparts.

combustion as coloured by Yomtov--> http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/3/34/Underbasekrakow.jpg

You can also see in that image the notorious "spittle" added to Wildman's pencilling by that inker!! Eeewww! Proof that inking really isn't just tracing (Chasing Amy'd!). :p

[roller]

Proof that inking really isn't just tracing (Chasing Amy'd!). :p


Whats a nubian?:D

[GoktimusPrime]

STFU! :D

"It's not tracing!" http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/BankyEdwards.jpg/200px-BankyEdwards.jpg

[Lord_Zed]

For me Wildman and Senior both add something a little gritty and viscerial to the Transformers universe, although I do also appreciate the more cartoon esque Guido Guidi, and argubly the most realistic of them all EJ Su.

Although the point of this thread is 80's - 90's TF comic art so let not get distracted, mind you having seen Wildman's art in The War Within, he may have learned to draw robots cartoon style, but the energy just isn't there, nor is the detail. While yes spittle and what not may seem odd for a giant robot, the level of detail he put into those last issues of the US comic is quite impressive. The other thing I really enjoyed was the way he did battle damage, not just broken windows, and dents, but loose wires, open panels, bent anttena/guns had the comic had a beter colourist they could have added carbon scoring and it would have rocked.

I love the UK artist's brutal portrayal of damage and combat, where Transformers fight and knock bitz and pieces of each other that was so cool.

[GoktimusPrime]

From this thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=3224&page=4)


Well, he can put a pen to paper so... evidently, he can draw... Perhaps, you should say, he can't draw well?
Putting pen to paper means he can scribe... doesn't necessarily mean he can draw. Anyone with at least one arm and hand and isn't a quadraplegic or suffering from an extremely debilitating condition like motor neuron disease can scribe.


I think he's an abominal human being and have nothing but contempt for him but I think that allegations that are constantly made against him that he cannot draw or is a pathetic artist are unfounded and fail to objectively view his contribution.

It's all relative as to who is a good artist and a bad artist. Different artists have different styles too and that means that one style might appeal to you and another may not. If at least 60K worth of fans warmed to him once upon time and Marvel Comics and DC comics, and Image Comics hired him he can't be a clueless hack. There's a difference between not liking a person and objectively viewing a person's achievements and I feel that that distinction by many fans cannot be made.
Forget style. He cannot draw. There are critical errors he always made in his "art" such as:
+ Errors in proportions. There's one poster where Optimus Prime's neck is obscured by his arm, yet his head is floatin WAY above his shoulder line. This is only possible if Prime has become decapitated or if he's done a "Go-Go-Gadget Neck!"
+ Errors in forced/linear perspective. Forced/linear perspective is a very basic and fundamental technique required for drawing in post-Renaissance three-dimensional drawing. It's only abandoned if you're trying to mimic pre-Renaissance art or creating abstract art like Picasso. Action comic art doesn't really fall into that category. There are some artists that do try to put a unique artistic twist into their style - Frank Miller is a good example... but they don't go and defy artistic "laws of science" like messing up proportions and ignoring rules of linear perspective.
+ Super El Chunko body parts - how the hell does his robots move with all their joints puffed up like that?!? Look at those hands and fingers... how can they possible form a fist or operate equipment when they're so chunky? I cannot even imagine how they could punch or hold a gun or operate a keyboard... guh. How do they bend their arms or walk? It's like he's taken a bunch of really huge cubes and smished them together to make robots.

When I say that Pat Lee can't draw, I'm not criticising his "try-hard-mecha-manga" style... that's purely a matter of personal taste and opinion (I personally don't like it, but that's beside the point). I'm criticising the fact that he, from a very technical definition, can NOT draw well.

Look at E.J. Su's art in comparison. Unlike Lee's art, Su's art:
1/ Has basically good forced/linear perspective. Hello vanishing point/horizon.
2/ Are well proportioned.
3/ Are not ridiculously chunky to the part where the Transformers don't look like they would be able to move. If you look at the way he draws fingers, hands, elbows, knees, ankles etc. you can see that they're designed in a way where parts can actually move about without occupying the same space as each other (which is of course physically impossible). Su's Transformers can far more believably do things like sit.

[STL]

Putting pen to paper means he can scribe... doesn't necessarily mean he can draw. Anyone with at least one arm and hand and isn't a quadraplegic or suffering from an extremely debilitating condition like motor neuron disease can scribe.
.

I don't particularly like that example there. I take the point you're making but I don't like seeing people who are disadvantaged compared to the rest of us being equalised to someone who you feel isn't very good.



Forget style. He cannot draw.


Style's very important. I think ignoring that is in itself a clear misstep in your examination of Pat Lee.

And here's something I'd like to stress again:




That said, you have to give him credit. He took the TF licence and was instrumental in the franchise's success as a comic series. All of his series and issues averaged around the 60K mark. The current comics don't even come close to that. I think he's an abominal human being and have nothing but contempt for him but I think that allegations that are constantly made against him that he cannot draw or is a pathetic artist are unfounded and fail to objectively view his contribution.






There are critical errors he always made in his "art" such as:
+ Errors in proportions. There's one poster where Optimus Prime's neck is obscured by his arm, yet his head is floatin WAY above his shoulder line. This is only possible if Prime has become decapitated or if he's done a "Go-Go-Gadget Neck!"


Stylistic choice.



+ Errors in forced/linear perspective. Forced/linear perspective is a very basic and fundamental technique required for drawing in post-Renaissance three-dimensional drawing. It's only abandoned if you're trying to mimic pre-Renaissance art or creating abstract art like Picasso. Action comic art doesn't really fall into that category. There are some artists that do try to put a unique artistic twist into their style - Frank Miller is a good example... but they don't go and defy artistic "laws of science" like messing up proportions and ignoring rules of linear perspective.


I think one thing we're missing here is that Pat Lee was a pretty damn lazy turd. He got people to put backgrounds for him for crying out loud and so that meant a lot of the time he just drew without regard for other factors.



+ Super El Chunko body parts - how the hell does his robots move with all their joints puffed up like that?!? Look at those hands and fingers... how can they possible form a fist or operate equipment when they're so chunky? I cannot even imagine how they could punch or hold a gun or operate a keyboard... guh. How do they bend their arms or walk? It's like he's taken a bunch of really huge cubes and smished them together to make robots.


Stylistic choice. Think about all the artists who draw female characters with huge racks. Or with massive backsides. I mean, some of those characters should have severe health issues. Then there's just hte uber muscular guys. How do they even bend their arm.

While I'm not disagreeing with you that there is a vocal contingent that does not like Pat Lee's art, I totally disagree with your assertion that he cannot draw. Marvel, DC and Image ALL sought his services. The only reason they walked away was not b/c they didn't like his work but b/c of the bad publcity he brought with him not to mention that shabby practices he has such as duping Alex Milne. To assert he has not a clue about drawing I feel is totally unfair. His style worked, it won people over. None of us have ever done that yet so like it or not, we have to acknowledge that he was a successful artist even though we may not like him or his art.

Ashley Wood is a comic artist who springs to mind. I hate his style but I can see that it is totally art. I don't like how he stretches things but again I can see that it is art that someone does enjoy and has made him successful. I've seen some people bash Tim Sale even though I adore him despite some of his awkward and very exaggerated poses at times but he's still a highly regarded artist.

And to make the point once more, Pat Lee's art may not be too your liking but I don't think its fair to go about demeaning it and making anyone who likes his art even mildly feel as if they are supporting a artist who is absolutely incompetent. I respect your opinion that you do not like Pat lee but I cannot possibly agree w/ your assertion that he cannot draw.

[Lord_Zed]

I don't like Pat Lee's art much, but as far as the chunky TF's go I blame the G1 toon for that, ok in G1 they weren't that chunky, but they were drawn pretty ilogicaly, they were never drawn with obvious joints, always as rectangular shapes connecting, and when they move they get squezzed and stretched as if TF's were made of rubber.

So while the chunky is over the top it's not something that I can fault as bad drawing on Pat Lees part.

His faces on the other hand! What's up with that urgh! All his characters look like juveniles even the battle hardened old men.

[heroic_decepticon]

I don't like Pat Lee's art style, but I don't think that he cannot 'draw' in that sense of the word. I think 'style' is part of drawing. Every artist has their own styles and that is what separates one from another- in other words, each artist draws in his or her own unique way.

I'd think that disembodied heads, lack of perspective and the other reasons cited by Gok, are part of Pat Lee's repartoire, it is his drawing style. As his per-cubist art would attest, Picasso certainly knew the basics of perspective and how to paint but yet in his cubist paintings he chose to paint with no perspective at all and in a manner that flies in the face of Renaissance sensibilities- but that is his style (or his chosen style). Pat Lee may equally know how to draw but for reasons of his own, chose to draw in the style we see in the Dreamwave comics.

So I'd say, I don't like his art style (= drawing and style of drawing). However, that does not mean that there's no merit to it. I may see little of value, but someone else may see the world of it; for the same reasons that that I think Mondrian's (or Pollock's) pieces are so ridiculously simple that a child could paint them, but still the greater collective of people think the world of them (as evidenced by people willing to pay millions to own a piece of their art).

Despite my own reservations, Pat Lee does appear to have and still have a lot of appeal to the fandom (or maybe to Hasbro, I don't know). For one, his art is reproduced and used on various forms of TF marketing, his art is used in the TF Monopoly game, used in (albeit) pirated TF dvds and vcds and (I friggin' hate this) used as the basis for TF statues, busts, exclusives and even Revoltech.

***

STL, I would attribute (or would like to attribute) that fact that his TFs issues sold in the region of 60K (or however large amount) was due to there being no regular TF comics since the 90s. Hungry fans had waited nearly a decade for more TF comics thirst to be sate (I know I was), and along comes DW and Pat Lee. Surely that is reason enough for them to snap up the first official TF comics to come along, buying multiple covers along the way, just so they don't miss out. I don't think the initial DW run did well because of the Pat Lee art, I think they did well because they were TF comics and fans at that time were dying for TF comics- any TF comic.

Sadly, because of their wide circulation, Pat Lee styled TFs may also be the most widely familiar thing around.

[liegeprime]

STL, I would attribute (or would like to attribute) that fact that his TFs issues sold in the region of 60K (or however large amount) was due to there being no regular TF comics since the 90s. Hungry fans had waited nearly a decade for more TF comics thirst to be sate (I know I was), and along comes DW and Pat Lee. Surely that is reason enough for them to snap up the first official TF comics to come along, buying multiple covers along the way, just so they don't miss out. I don't think the initial DW run did well because of the Pat Lee art, I think they did well because they were TF comics and fans at that time were dying for TF comics- any TF comic.

Sadly, because of their wide circulation, Pat Lee styled TFs may also be the most widely familiar thing around.

+1, I was among those who was rushing to the local Comic shops just to find the latest issues coz of the long drought from G2 comics to the DW release. But I still kept my senses not to buy multiple issues and just bought the cover I most liked. However if I do chance upon now on a cheap Dw issue 1 where you connect the Dec/autobot cover Im going to buy it connect it and have it laminated and stuck as a poster in my TF room.

[GoktimusPrime]

I would attribute (or would like to attribute) that fact that his TFs issues sold in the region of 60K (or however large amount) was due to there being no regular TF comics since the 90s. Hungry fans had waited nearly a decade for more TF comics thirst to be sate (I know I was), and along comes DW and Pat Lee. Surely that is reason enough for them to snap up the first official TF comics to come along, buying multiple covers along the way, just so they don't miss out. I don't think the initial DW run did well because of the Pat Lee art, I think they did well because they were TF comics and fans at that time were dying for TF comics- any TF comic.
+1 QFT. Those comics did well in spite of Pat Lee, not because of him IMHO.

[kup]

Also Pat Lee inposed his own style on several other Dreamwave artists even though others such as Don Figuera managed to implemented while maintaining more solid (rather than foamy) bodies and proper body proportions resulting in what IMO is superior art.

While I agree that its annoying that Hasbro has used a lot of the Pat Lee DW art in its promo pics, in the recent past they seem to have also tried to use art from other DW artists. The Monopoly game for example is all composed of DW art but much of it appears to be Figuera's too.

[STL]

STL, I would attribute (or would like to attribute) that fact that his TFs issues sold in the region of 60K (or however large amount) was due to there being no regular TF comics since the 90s. Hungry fans had waited nearly a decade for more TF comics thirst to be sate (I know I was), and along comes DW and Pat Lee. Surely that is reason enough for them to snap up the first official TF comics to come along, buying multiple covers along the way, just so they don't miss out. I don't think the initial DW run did well because of the Pat Lee art, I think they did well because they were TF comics and fans at that time were dying for TF comics- any TF comic.

Sadly, because of their wide circulation, Pat Lee styled TFs may also be the most widely familiar thing around.

I'm not sure if that's an entirey accurate assessment either. One of the things int that period was that it wasn't just hungry fans. There was a 80s boom at the time where everything from GiJOE to Masters of the Universe got a run. That fad died within 2 years though and TFs started in the tail end of that 80s boom. And multiple covers aren't new either. IDW have been doing them for a long time now and if we take away half the runs, that'd bring IDW down to 6-7,600 units on average per TF comic.

I think there's a lot of factors that contributed to the TF decline from the DW era.

- Marketing - it just isn't as strong anymore. In the DW era, posters were on the wall for everything from one-shots to the crappiness of the Micromasters limited series. Now, IDW barely have posters up for the latest Spotlight or even Maximum Dinobots
- Media Coverage - it just doesn't even hit the comics news forums that much anymore. Newsarama, IGN and CBR used to run plenty of articles during the DW era. Not the case now. That means less interest.
- Infiltration - it got off on the wrong foot. Too much humans, too slow a build up and they lost heaps of fans with that pathetic showing in Infiltration #0. I myself was among those who left the book and never expected to return. I only got back into the 'tion' series b/c of the Prime/Megatron fight in Escalation which piqued my interested again.
- The larger comic community lost interest. To them, IDW's product just didn't resonate with them the same way DW did which was way more rooted in G1.
- The power of Furman - he had way too much discretion and space to work with. He had spotlights and each of the "tion" series to work with and ended up with stuff beign all over the place. Giving him an ongoing would've forced him to play in the 1 basket.
- The 6 month wait between series. Poor choice and it dulled momentum between series to have to wait 6 months, sometimes more.
- TPBs: far more prevalent today and that means more readers have progressed to being casual TF fiction fans as opposed to being active. This has in large part negated a lot of voice in relation to the comics.

So I think that yes a lot of fans returned, the average 60K figure DW had can hardly be boiled to buying multiple covers. IDW tried that game with Infiltration and failed miserably still.

[GoktimusPrime]

You're fundamentally agreeing with hd there - so DW TFs succeeded due to a combination fo starving fans and a new 80s retro boom. Either way, it succeeded despite Pat Lee rather than because of him.

Tom Cruise'd!! :D

[STL]

You're fundamentally agreeing with hd there - so DW TFs succeeded due to a combination fo starving fans and a new 80s retro boom. Either way, it succeeded despite Pat Lee rather than because of him.

Tom Cruise'd!! :D

No, what I was pointing out was that HD's assessment was only partially correct and that it in is flawed b/c of the abovementioned reasons. IDW's franchise has flopped and I pointed out above all the reasons for it. DW's success over 3-4 years did not just boil down to Pat Lee hysteria. He was popular before TF comics even came around. He was regarded among the industry's top 10 artists at that time.

I'm not saying that makes him a good artist - Don is the best imo - but what I'm saying is that DW had a poor business approach but it had something that actually resonated and persisted with fans. The current flop in comics has been a result of IDW's failure to resonate with the fanbase and its grossly misleading to say it all comes down old fans starved of TF comics. And I've outlined those reasons above. IDW lost a significant of momentum and there's just no denying that.

Infiltration imo was one of the worst things to happen to the TF comics imo and I think the numbers and reaction at the time all go to show that.

[roller]

i dont like any Marvel G1 comic art, G2 is good though and since then they seemed to have evolved to my likeness, except the current IDW stuff, old IDW was good, Verity use to b hawt!!!!:)

[STL]

i dont like any Marvel G1 comic art, G2 is good though and since then they seemed to have evolved to my likeness, except the current IDW stuff, old IDW was good, Verity use to b hawt!!!!:)

*Throws poor Roller one of Unca Hugh's periodicals*

[STL]

One other thing that a comic reading mate of mine pointed out was that IDW also raised its prices to $3.99 which didn't help. Not just for TFs but across their entire line. While I understand the reasons, it's all also another reason why IDW's books lost traction. most of the big mainstream comics are $2.99, at $3.99 you're really counting on the niche collectors and losing a lot more casual readers.

[FFN]

Also Pat Lee inposed his own style on several other Dreamwave artists even though others such as Don Figuera managed to implemented while maintaining more solid (rather than foamy) bodies and proper body proportions resulting in what IMO is superior art.

While I agree that its annoying that Hasbro has used a lot of the Pat Lee DW art in its promo pics, in the recent past they seem to have also tried to use art from other DW artists. The Monopoly game for example is all composed of DW art but much of it appears to be Figuera's too. I think the problem is Pat Lee's art is the most well-known modern TF art, unfortunately. He has a lot of fans who evidently have no taste in art.

However, sometime before Don left Transformers, he did a bunch of G1 art for Hasbro to use in licensing and mechandise. One of the most prominent for us aussies is the Kinnerton Advent calendar, and that picture of G1 Prime pointing his gun used in all sorts of merch and Hasbro's Universe site.


Infiltration imo was one of the worst things to happen to the TF comics imo and I think the numbers and reaction at the time all go to show that. I liked Infiltration, then again, I like new things in TF.

[kup]

I liked Infiltration, then again, I like new things in TF.

I also liked Infiltration. I thought that the fan complaints were mainly due to the somewhat poor (marketing wise) choice of having a Transformers preview dominated by teenage age humans with almost no robots. This was particularly bad as the fandom at the time was sick to death of stuff like the Armada kids, Kicker, etc.

[STL]

I'd love to get stuck into Infiltration but this probably isn't the best place for it. But needless to say, I wouldn't even call it new. I'd call it incredilby misguided.

[Lord_Zed]

Yeah I thought Infiltration was a fairly good start to IDW's new TF universe, much much stronger than Dreamwaves first TF comic.

The main weakness of the title I think was the afforementioned crappy teaser issue 0 and the fact that it wasn't a straight ongoing series.

It was also a little sucky having to start again in a whole new universe just as Dreamwaves comic was reaching new heights. I'm kinda getting that same vibe again with AHM.

[Sky Shadow]

I just rediscovered this nostalgic piece of Pat Lee's work from before he started on the Transformers franchise. This is his 'money shot' final image supposedly demonstrating how to draw Transformers from a Wizard article. WTF? Is he sure he wasn't writing a how not to article? I can draw better than that shemozzle. Even though it looks like a collage of nonsensically and impossibly mismatched images, it's supposed to be a coherent scene of Autobots um... facing towards the right. Such action and drama. And perspective.

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m190/PatLeeProductions/page5.jpg

"When I'm finished, James Raiz, my right-hand man, will fill in background detail to complete the page - in this case, broken-down buildings."

I'm assuming this is the kind of right-hand that's probably being screwed over and not paid by the left hand.

(Hey... wow. Is that Twin Twist at the bottom left?)

[heroic_decepticon]

I don't like his art much, but his 'early' Transformers art was way better than the crap he produced for DW G1 vols 1 and 2.

And to be fair, those art pages in Wizard were some of the best Transformer art, at that time, that people had seen in awhile. :D

[Jhiaxus]

Pat Lee and the Dreamwave crop of artists... and IDW's crew vs. Marvel's artists.

Hmmmm... I think I'll mention three of my favourite Marvel artists, and then three important modern TF artists.

HERBE TRIMPE (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Herb_Trimpe)
The outright best comic book artist to ever work on Transformers was Herbe Trimpe. Herb Trimpe was a comic book artist with decades of experience who had become a MASSIVELY influential super-star of comic art thanks to his long and critically acclaimed tenure on The Incredible Hulk.

His work on Transformers comic covers and Transformers #11 and #12 is STILL some of the best Transformers artwork of all time. I can only think of ONE or TWO modern TF covers that could rank next to Herbe Trimpe's many insanely awesome comic covers. (He also did the 4 issue Transformers vs. G.I. Joe series.)

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/44/MarvelUS-17.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/6/64/MarvelUS-27.jpg

FRANK SPRINGER (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Frank_Springer)
Another veteran artist. Frank Springer did issues 1-4 of the original series, issues 1-4 of Headmasters and, randomly, issue 44 of the original series. Frank Springer was incredible.

I'll get this out of the way -- Frank had a LOT of trouble with the character models -- they were transitioning from more toy-based art to more cartoon-based art in the early comics, and in Headmasters everything was just a MESS. This is a MAJOR problem with his art.

On the other hand, his art is simply the most detailed and intricate Transformers art of all time. Seriously -- modern TF art just completely pales in comparison. Every single Frank Springer panel is BURSTING with things going on. Meaningful things. Incredible things. His Cybertron sequences are just... you have to SEE them to believe them. A single tiny panel tells as much story as whole ISSUES of modern TF comics.

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/e/e6/MarvelUS-35.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/a/aa/MarvelHeadmasters-2.jpg


DON PERLIN (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Don_Perlin)
Don worked on Transformers for a long time. He was another veteran Marvel artist relegated to a second-rate job on a licensed book. But he did fantastic work. Issues 17 and 18 of Transformers stand up as my favourite works of TF fiction ever -- and his art is a major contributing factor.

Scrounge, Wheezel, Straxus, he brought all these different made-up TFs to life with ease... and painted a detailed, intricate Cybertron that has not been equalled by any artist before or since. Don Perlin KNEW storytelling. Reading his issues is easy -- effortless. He knows how to frame a page, how to compose an image and how to make things READ right.

What more could you ask for?

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/92/MarvelUS-13.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/8/82/MarvelUS-61.jpg

Then there's the modern guys.

PAT LEE (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Pat_Lee)
Say what you will about the man... his art HAS been massively influential. And that's amazingly sad and depressing.

Pat Lee doesn't know squat about sequential art. His compositions are sloppy, with no thought put into them. His characters have no emotions beyond the infamous "Dull surprise" and he couldn't tell a story if you drew it for him.

Which people did.

Pat Lee's art is what my friend Andrew Hobart describes as "ooooo!... Oh." art. It's the kind of thing you look at and you go, "OOOOOO!" then you look at it for just a little bit longer and you go, "Oh." Because it looks flashy enough to catch the eye -- but doesn't stand up to actual reading.

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/5/56/G1_Vol.1_Issue1_1.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/c/c2/G1_Vol.2_Issue2_1.jpg


DON FIGUEROA
The first fan-artist-made-good.

I don't like Don's art. I've never liked Don's art. But I like Don as an artist. I like that he experiments with his style and is always trying to improve it.

I just wish he'd improve some of the things that I think don't work about his style. Once again you have a limited range of emotions (angry, frowny, occasionally a smile), a limited range of poses and a limited range of compositions.

I am so tired of generically posed Transformers floating in space. I am so tired of comics without long shots where every single page is made up of closeups or mid shots. I am so tired of Don's boring, boring art.

Oooooo! ... Oh.

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/7/77/G1_Vol.3_Issue6_1.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/4/4f/TAM_3.jpg

NICK ROCHE
Nick knows emotion. He knows expression. He's really great at it. But I don't like his storytelling. I find his comics... ugly to look at and difficult to read.

This is partly the colourists' fault. But also partly because his compositions are so busy and so oddly framed. He's one of those artists I desperately WANT to like... but I only enjoy about 50 percent of his stuff.

His Maximum Dinobots work in particular was just MESSY.

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/f/fd/IDWSpotlight_Kup_cover.jpg http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/d/d9/MaximumDinobots_1a.jpg

Transformers art has changed, a lot. The Marvel US artists had character models they were working from given to them from the animation studios. So their characters were based on these character models. They drew the characters according to those models and designs.

Nowadays, Transformers artists draw characters based on their own personal choices -- they use details from toys, from comics, from other random stuff. They make up their own designs. They character models used for modern TF comics are, unquestionably, far, far more detailed than in the old comics.

But that is the only improvement we've seen.

The composition skills of modern TF artists are not impressive.
Their storytelling skills are not impressive.
Their ability to draw emotions, and to make characters communicate, or sit in space, are, generally speaking, kinda atrocious.

The difference is pretty simple. In the old days we had comic professionals working on Transformers. We had guys who had decades of experience doing the comics and they did a good job telling those stories.

Now we have fan artists who aren't particularly GOOD at telling stories.

--Jhiaxus.
(At least, that's how I feel.)

[liegeprime]

Well one thing I hated about the early artworks is when a Tf gets hit is he does the dinosaur death split, which is ridiculous whichever way you look at it.... Im talking about they bend when hit by a blast 90 degrees backwards, like how the Optimus toy bends at the hips when transforming him. It doesnt follow physics properly you get hit in the midsection of course that portion goes back and then your upper part arms and legsremains abit back . you end up in the > position but nope early artist always drew them getting blasted in the misection they do < bend. and the hands oh my the hands.....

I like Don's art for it being mecha, but yeah he needs to work on facial expression ... his work on Macromasters is better than his work when he got under DW wing. but then I think this is due to the policy that company has on making coherent generic artwork...

I like the clean early work of Andrew Wildman, until he decided to get all melty face for the TFs on the later issues... that scene in an issue where Starscream in jet mode ( best/simplest clean one Ive seen so far) flanking Triggerhappy and Mindwipe when they deserted Scorponok is a fave panel of mine :)

As Gok pointed to me anyhow some of the artworks are really good but it depends on the ones doing the inking and coloringit either helps make the artwork even better or just ruins it totally..

[Lord_Zed]

Yeah the old artists art styles may not look as racy as modern TF art, but they knew their stuff, compasition, storytelling etc. And for his time Herb Trimpe was amazingly skilled at getting every detail perfect, Although he was better at drawing non fictional things.

One thing that really bugs me the way EVERYONE (in TF comics at least) can only draw cartoony human faces (and by extension TF's but I don't mine when there cartoony as much), I mean sure its was fun for a while early on but now it just plain sucks. Seriously do any of these modern artitsts actualy do life drawing every week? or even once a month? it's kinda essential for any good artist.

My all time favoutre TF artist is still Andrew Wildman, sure he used heaps of exageration, and people complain that's his TF's dribble and have eyeballs. But when Galvatron explains his mad plan to escape the bounds of Unicrons control in the old US marvel TF comic, you can see his emotions clearly in every panel. Obviously Wildman humanised his TF faces a lot more than most artists but it sure worked when he wanted to convey emotion.

[Jhiaxus]

Well one thing I hated about the early artworks is when a Tf gets hit is he does the dinosaur death split, which is ridiculous whichever way you look at it.... Im talking about they bend when hit by a blast 90 degrees backwards, like how the Optimus toy bends at the hips when transforming him. It doesnt follow physics properly you get hit in the midsection of course that portion goes back and then your upper part arms and legsremains abit back . you end up in the > position but nope early artist always drew them getting blasted in the misection they do < bend. and the hands oh my the hands.....

Are you talking about Delbo's usual hit-by-a-blast pose? That was pretty much exclusive to ONE ARTIST. Each different artist has their own repertoire of poses... and yeah, sometimes they can suck.

Modern TF artists are just as bad at this. But I'll point out that you're tarring a lot of different, unique, awesome artists with the same brush here just because of the art of one guy.

That's really bad.

I can be really curmudgeonly about treating new artists fairly -- but I always tackle them as individuals and look at their individual merits and failures.




I like Don's art for it being mecha, but yeah he needs to work on facial expression ... his work on Macromasters is better than his work when he got under DW wing. but then I think this is due to the policy that company has on making coherent generic artwork...

You can blame Dreamwave -- but Figueroa's never been THAT great at expressive art. IT's not just his faces. His figures have no expression either. They're just... well... big ole mecha. You can't tell what Prime is feeling, or what Soundwave is feeling...

Yet somehow guys like Wildman and Perlin could give those faceless guys character. Strange, huh?



I like the clean early work of Andrew Wildman, until he decided to get all melty face for the TFs on the later issues... that scene in an issue where Starscream in jet mode ( best/simplest clean one Ive seen so far) flanking Triggerhappy and Mindwipe when they deserted Scorponok is a fave panel of mine :)
Wildman always drew TFs with human faces and human hands. Mostly because he REALLY WANTED TO DRAW SUPER HEROES, not robots. It's a failing of his art, and something I don't like.



As Gok pointed to me anyhow some of the artworks are really good but it depends on the ones doing the inking and coloringit either helps make the artwork even better or just ruins it totally..
I definitely agree with that. So many modern colourists completely DESTROY what could be good artwork.

It makes me actually PINE for the days of Nel Yomtov. Sure he was sloppy and lazy... but at least you could usually READ what he'd coloured.

--Jhiaxus.
(I'm an old fuddy-duddy.)

[liegeprime]

I dont mean to tarr any of them good past artist you've mentioned. It is kinda unfair of me that I bundle up all those other artworks and present them in like done by one person in my reply. Should prolly phrased my reply to something like " I dont like in particular the drawing made by whoever that artist which draws them TFs doing the backwards 90º split when blasted which is just wrong physics wise, and well aesthetically looks ridiculous" that way, as like before that even if made no mention of any artist ( i dint bother knowing them until Wildman), it does pertain to only one singular artist's artwork , which leaves all of em others in the clear.

I only bothered to know who the artist was when I saw Wildman's drawing as it particularly made an impression and looked "fresher" to me, so he's the only one I know by name and can mention. All the other artists, good as you've pointed out they are, well just didnt catch my interest:). . Also I only got to read few older/earlier issues ( which I read for the story and characterization of some characters, not really so much the art then) I latched on to regularly collecting the issues on the later later ones, after Matrix Quest. Just when I thought the story was getting more interesting, it gets canned though:(. Wish theyd continue a bit with the Actionmasters arc.
Am more of a DC titles buyer, TFs was the only Marvel I bought:).