No Guns, No Swords, No Briefcases

[TaZZerath]

Todays Topic on TaZZerath's Throught-provoking Talks; what type of weapons do you prefer for your favourite 'bots?

What i'm thinking here is Ranged (guns, pistols, rifles), Melee (swords, hammers) but also Integrated; that is, weapons that aren't necessarily individual accessories of their own right which can come off but are part of your Transformers' arsenal.

Personally, I'm a big fan of both Ranged and Melee and it comes down to the 'bot itself. For example, RoTF Bludgeon (with his 3P upgrade) has two sweet shiny metallic swords; one short and one long (I'm not gonna mess up the Japanese in terms of which sword is what). Suits him perfectly as a samurai warrior. CW Leader Ultra Magnus' missiles and gun are great and while I love that they had the ability to combine them into the Magnus Hammer, it doesn't 'fit' for me, plus I discard the second 'stumpy' gun and just keep the rifle. TR Triggerhappy's built-in guns which can be flipped out in robot mode are a sweet addition, and the 3P minigun I got for T30 Springer (mimicking his Last Stand of the Wreckers scene against Overlord) suits him to a tee.

So what are your favourite weapons? Who do they suit best? You might even have just a weapon type which can go with any 'bot!

-Masters with built-in weapon modes that other 'bots can wield (like Targetmasters) can count too!

[GoktimusPrime]

I'm gonna be really boring and say GUNS, because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE). Especially anything like an automatic assault rifle or better.

Fiction likes to romanticise melee weapons like swords, but the reality is that fighters have always preferred ranged weapons once that technology became available. Even the Samurai preferred ranged weapons. Their weapon of choice was the rifle, initially imported from Portugal and Spain, then later the Japanese learnt to modify and manufacture their own firearms. Even before the importation of firearms, the Samurai's preferred weapon was the bow and arrow; Samurai were adept archers. Not that Bludgeon is really a Samurai, and as we all know, the original Bludgeon toy never came with any ranged weapons, only guns. It was Simon Furman who equipped him with a sword in the G1 and G2 comics, but the original toy never had one.

And another thing is, a lot of writers don't make characters fight with melee weapons properly either. They typically have them attack each other's weapons instead of attacking the opponent. e.g. swords bouncing off each other. This makes absolutely no sense. The objective is to kill the enemy, not to play percussion by whacking your swords against each other. Also, swords don't bounce. When two blades meet they lock and the two fighters engage in a kind of sword-to-sword wrestling match, because the first guy to lose is going to get sliced. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of melee weapon fighting, but I'm sure that trained melee weapon martial artists here like 1AZRAEL1 can shed more light on this matter. :)

Transformers who have retractable built in guns (and sure, swords) is a really cool feature because it gives you versatility. Your arms can become guns, and if need be, swords or even rocket launchers etc. This is something that G1 had (e.g. Sunstreaker, Trailbreaker etc.), but it wasn't always exploited by writers. Bayformers made it a more common thing, and I gotta say, it's a pretty neat idea from a practical fighting POV. Built-in weapons means that you can't be disarmed (unless you're amputated), and you can switch to melee weaponry or even hand-to-hand if the situation calls for it. Although IRL the need to use non-range weaponry is extremely low. If you can at all shoot an opponent then of course you'd shoot them! :D

So yeah, I guess my favourite weapon sets would be for guys like Bayformers Optimus Prime and Bumblebee, TF Prime Optimus Prime etc. 'Bots who have both ranged and melee weapons built into them.

[DELTAprime]

I always loved Hot Rod's exhaust lasers or whatever they were called in the '86 movie.

[Jellico]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.

I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.

The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.

[Jetfire in the sky]

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment. :D

A shoulder mounted rail gun would be nice too if I'm a giant robot.

[Galvatran]

*snip* because honestly, ranged weapons are just superior to ranged weapons in practically every single way (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE).
:confused:


Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armor against archery.
Eg against zombies.

[GoktimusPrime]

Melee works when your ranged weapons lack impact. Eg humans have been mostly able to armour against archery. Accuracy was a big issue with guns before industrial rifling. Waiting for the whites of their eyes was a real thing. Alternatively rate of fire can be too low, see the traditional bayonet. Finally range can be so low ranged weapons become too awkward to use. Eg trench combat in WWI.
Again, you're referring to pre-automatic assault rifle range weaponry there. The benchmark would be the automatic assault rifle. Anything at that tech level or better would render melee weapons effectively useless.

Melee weapons might be useful for needing to take out a target silently, like sneaking up behind an opponent and then gagging them while plunging a blade through their back. But it would be for scenarios where, for whatever reason, sniping them from a distance isn't an option. Lockdown in AOE showed just how incredibly deadly long range sniping can be. Poor Ratchet stood about as much of a chance as a fart against a whirlwind.


I am not sure that any of this applies to a species with black hole tapping fusion cannons.
lol! :D Many tech levels above the assault rifle! :D But yeah, it was the assault rifle that rendered melee combat useless here on Earth (as has often been mentioned in the Martial Arts Discussion thread (http://otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=129&page=91)), which is why I'd use it as a minimum technological benchmark.


The big issue I see with built in weapons is that you lose your wrist. Wrists offer a lot of fine tuning.
Losing your wrists would make you incapable of operating non-built-in hand-held guns too. :p ;)

So if we're talking robots here there is no need for a melee weapon unless it has some sort of energy emission ala light saber, so then I'd go with a combo rifle, a long range out to 5000m energy weapon with back up projectile with depleted uranium tip option and then a shorter accuracy out to 1000m energy/projectile weapon with high explosive launcher attachment. :D
Even an energy melee weapon like a light sabre would be pretty needless if you just have energy projectile ballistics. :) This is why even Star Wars needed to disclaim that only highly trained/adept Force users would ever wield a lightsabre in battle, especially against opponents with energy weapons. But even then their powers are limited once the enemy has sufficient firepower. Obi-Wan and Qui Gon couldn't hold their ground against the Droidekas. And we saw many Jedi being outgunned and killed by Clone Troopers at the execution of Order 66. The lightsabre is really a melee range duelling weapon with limited capacity as an anti-ballistic shield. But as it's also explained the Jedi are keepers of the peace, not soldiers.

At best guns and swords on Transformers would work similarly to that on Samurai. In actual warfare the Samurai would absolutely use range weapons like bows and rifles, but in one-on-one duels they would use swords.

https://image.ibb.co/n8ET8V/temp.jpg

Historical Tangent
By the Tokugawa Shogunate, Samurai had become very proficient riflemen. About 30% of Samurai forces at the time were riflemen. When Tokugawa attempted to invade China, they were met by resistance by the Koreans (who were allies of the Chinese). The Koreans knew that they couldn't defeat the Samurai in land battle due to a combination of superior weapons tech (guns) and skills (i.e. battle hardened after the Sengoku Period). But the Koreans (actually just one dude (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin)) knew that what they lacked in land battle capability, they made up for in naval superiority. The Koreans (and later a Korean-Chinese alliance) managed to defeat the Japanese by intercepting their ships and defeating them at sea before they could make landfall. And even Japanese forces that managed to slip by and land were cut off from the rest of the fleet (and thus were unable to be resupplied). The Yi Sun Shin revolutioned Asian naval combat because he took advantage of their use of superior cannons rather than just boarding enemy boats and effectively having land battles on deck. Blow up the enemy boats and sink them before they could get close enough to board. Admiral Yi also developed boarding-resistant turtle ships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship). Admiral Yi actually won more naval battles than Horatio Nelson. Nelson won about half of his battles. Yi won almost all of his battles. And the one battle that he lost was really because of treachery from a Chinese ally; but even with that setback he never lost a ship.

[Jellico]

Ah Japan. Their history is so messed up and revised and reimagined every time the guys in charge change everything works.
But yeah. Point well made. When Samurai needed to fight as soldiers guns were very welcome.


Having brought up Nelson here is an interesting naval example.
French doctrine basically said aim for the rigging and disable the ship at range.
English doctrine was to wear the hits, get close and aim for the waterline.
Now admittedly the English got a lot more practice and could actually hit something. But it shows an environment where both sides were using basically the same technology but short range combat was more effective than ranged and the sorts of prerequisites needed.

Perhaps we are looking at this wrong. Instead of looking at the strength of the weapons maybe we should be looking at the armour? Depends on the universe and the power of narrativium but most Cybertronians seem insanely tough to kill.

[GoktimusPrime]

Having brought up Nelson here is an interesting naval example.
French doctrine basically said aim for the rigging and disable the ship at range.
English doctrine was to wear the hits, get close and aim for the waterline.
Now admittedly the English got a lot more practice and could actually hit something. But it shows an environment where both sides were using basically the same technology but short range combat was more effective than ranged and the sorts of prerequisites needed.
Ship-to-ship battle is a different thing from interpersonal combat between individual combatants. Space battles are never accurately portrayed in science fiction, because quite frankly they would be really boring if they were. The fact is that expelled energy blasts like lasers literally travel at the speed of light. This is pretty much impossible to dodge. A starfighter or ship trying to dodge laser blasts is akin to a person trying to dodge a bullet. Unless you're living in the Matrix it's pretty much impossible.


Perhaps we are looking at this wrong. Instead of looking at the strength of the weapons maybe we should be looking at the armour? Depends on the universe and the power of narrativium but most Cybertronians seem insanely tough to kill.
Heh, Cybertronians are about as tough or easy to kill as the plot demands. Brawn is the second strongest Autobot next to Optimus Prime, and yet a single shot to the shoulder was all it took to finish him off. :p

[Ralph Wiggum]

Unicron had lasers coming from his eyes and corrosive(?) breath. Thought that was pretty badass.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I was a bit disappointed that the POTP Dinobots and Predacons didn't come with swords as the weapon suited both groups.

When it comes to video games I actually prefer melee weapons as I like to get in close and hack'n'slash - I find it more visceral and fun.

When it comes to Transformers I like to see a wide variety. I liked the inclusion of a Hammer for Ultra Magnus becoming more widespread after he first wielded one in Animated. It really depends on the character. For instance Swindle should have a wide variety due to being a munitions expert, and characters like him, Megatron, Galvatron, the Seekers etc all look good with arm-mounted weaponry.

So I guess my answer is there is nothing I prefer the best, a wide variety and whatever suits that character works for me :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Unicron had lasers coming from his eyes and corrosive(?) breath.
And again, dodging those eye lasers should be outright impossible. Although I'm not sure how Unicron can still see and aim while shooting those lasers, but watevs. :p Assuming that he could, like Cyclops, still see while shooting, then it should be impossible for him to miss a target. And since it should be impossible for targets to evade the laser blasts, then well... yeah, anything and anyone he targets with those eye lasers should be screwed. No idea how Unicron didn't score a direct hit on the Junkion ship.

It should be more like a Kryptonian's heat vision; it just instantly hits its target and you can't avoid it. Your options are either:
* Attempt to deflect the ray as Superman did to Zod in Superman II, but that was already after the heat had hit its target and was already doing damage - even with Superman's blinding speed he couldn't deflect the initial blast.
* Attempt to redirect the source of the blast, as we saw Superman do to Zod in Man of Steel when he had Zod in a headlock and was trying to stop him from zapping that family who, for some stupid reason, didn't run in the away but just chose to huddle in that corner and scream in terror.
...but yeah, you can't exactly intercept a laser shot. You can intersect it, but you can't intercept it. Not without moving faster than the speed of light which is impossible.

But again, this is why space battles would be really boring because it'd be over in a few seconds and there's nothing you could do once someone fires a deadly laser blast. I suppose you could try to strengthen your armour or shielding, but then there'd be an arms race where each side just builds more powerful lasers that can penetrate armour. I think it'd get to the point where lasers would become much like nuclear weapons; more of a deterrent rather than something that's regularly used in war. Because the thought of mutually assured destruction would discourage either side from firing the first shot. You'd have a lot of intense stand-offs.


I was a bit disappointed that the POTP Dinobots and Predacons didn't come with swords as the weapon suited both groups.
Yeah, I would've liked swords, but I understand why Hasbro didn't include them. It would've added to the already expensive cost of the set (remember that Hasbro budgets every last drop of paint on a toy; designers have to stick to a super-tight budget), plus the Predacons never used their swords in G1 canon (cartoon, comics). They only used their guns. The designers would've only been able to give them either guns or swords but not both. And the guns are all incorporated into Predaking as his feet, shoulder cannons and main rifle. You could have all of the swords combine into a big sword, I suppose, but it might not look that great and it may not be very sturdy.

I think that Hasbro made the right choice in choosing guns over swords. From a toy design POV the guns offer greater versatility, they're more G1 canon accurate, and they're also just more logical weapons. Even in Beast Wars we know that projectile weapons were superior to melee weapons; Rhinox is a classic example of this. The original Rhinox only ever had melee weapons; sword plus a buzzsaw with flails. We know that Mainframe animators modified the buzzsaw weapon into Rhinox's chainguns which became one of the best loved weapons from Beast Wars and an iconic weapon for Rhinox (and how many of us were stoked when Generations Rhinox came with the Chainguns of Doom?).

I remember when Beast Wars first started airing, one iconic scene that got even a lot of my non-TF buddies excited about was the scene where Rhinox is up to his knees in spent shells. :)

[FatalityPitt]

On Transformers, I like weapons and accessories that are simple but distinguishable. I like guns that look like guns, and swords that look like swords.

Example of weapon accessories I like are TLK Deluxe Barricade's pistol and truncheon, because it's easy to see the type of weapon they're meant to represent, and it's appropriate to the character.

Example of weapons that I tend to dislike or be indifferent towards, are things like TR Seaspray's accessory. I can't make out if it's meant to be a gun, a scanning device, or a pizza box.

A lot of the single-carded Titan Masters in Titans Return had weapon modes that I mostly ignored. The only ones that seemed decent to me were Brawn's (looked like a rifle), and Shuffler/Ramhorn (looked like a cross between a rocket launcher and an Uzi sub-machine gun).

[KELPIE]

Anything built into the toy.

It can be a feature like Triggerhappy's forearms, or sculpted like Rippersnappers claws and Flywheels knuckle-guns.

[UltraMarginal]

I've always liked guns on transformers. I also like how a lot of the g1 guns aren't necessarily 'laser' guns but some shoot acid, others shoot various types of solid projectiles. I forgot though that the G1 Dinobots had swords (on the toys at least) and I like that.

I've also recently liked some of the melee weapons that newer iterations have had. I like the wrecking ball weapons of TF Prime Bulkhead and the hammer fist of Breakdown. I really liked the style of the sword that Prime had and the Hammer of Solus Prime that Magnus used.

but the sound and styling of Megatrons Cannon and Primes Rifle have always stood out to me as something special.

I have a friend who thinks transformers should have ridiculously large weapons, given that they are robots and immeasurably strong by our standards but I don't like the look or 'practicality' of that type of weapon.

[Autocon]

Beast wars tigerhawk had the elemental powers so is most powerful. My fav is hand to hand weapons coz there is more technical skill involved rather than just hiding behind a rock and firing.

[GoktimusPrime]

Beast wars tigerhawk had the elemental powers so is most powerful.
True this! :D Can't really argue with godlike elemental powers. :D Unless you've got a massive Fusion Cannon that can draw anti-matter from an inter(intra?)-dimensionally connected black hole (which Jellico already mention).

One interesting thing is how underused Megatron's fusion cannon's true potential is. In fact, he's only ever done it twice - once in the G1 comics* and once in the IDW comics※.

----------------------
* Ressurection! (https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/9/98/MegatronAntimatterUK.jpg) (1987)
※ Do Not Go Gentle (https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/0/0f/Mtmte_55_antimatter.jpg) (2016)

[TaZZerath]

True this! :D Can't really argue with godlike elemental powers. :D Unless you've got a massive Fusion Cannon that can draw anti-matter from an inter(intra?)-dimensionally connected black hole (which Jellico already mention).

One interesting thing is how underused Megatron's fusion cannon's true potential is. In fact, he's only ever done it twice - once in the G1 comics* and once in the IDW comics※.

That IS incredibly understated.

Megatrons original form does pose an interesting conundrum for this topic; is he an INTEGRATED weapon, a ranged weapon all of his own due to his alt mode, both??

[GoktimusPrime]

That IS incredibly understated.
Both G1 and IDW canon explained it as being due to the fact that his anti-matter powers are too destructive to be used. G1 Megatron did it because he was going insane after Straxus had transferred his mind into Megatron's body. IDW Megatron did it as a weapon of last resort to execute the Decepticon Justice Division, but ensured that the effects were contained in a force field.


Megatrons original form does pose an interesting conundrum for this topic; is he an INTEGRATED weapon, a ranged weapon all of his own due to his alt mode, both??
Well... yes! Megatron and Shockwave and many other gun moded TFs are ranged weapons on their own. This would also include those who transform into cannons and tanks.

Browning is the exception because he transforms into a toy gun. Yeah, the Browning toy is a toy gun that transforms into a toy gun! :D

[FatalityPitt]

I like Autobot leaders with swords - Star Saber, Laser Prime, Fort Max, etc.

When I was a kid I thought it was really cool seeing Fort Max in the Headmasters cartoon transforming into his full-size and posing with the Master Sword. Somehow it reminded me of King Arthur and Excalibur.

I think the sword can be associated with knighthood and chivalry, which is fitting for an Autobot leader. It's also a nice contrast from the arm cannon worn by Decepticon leaders like Megatron, Galvatron, etc.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

I like Autobot leaders with swords - Star Saber, Laser Prime, Fort Max, etc.

When I was a kid I thought it was really cool seeing Fort Max in the Headmasters cartoon transforming into his full-size and posing with the Master Sword. Somehow it reminded me of King Arthur and Excalibur.


I like Fort Max's sword, but always thought is kind of silly as a weapon. Considering how big max is, it's unlikely he'd ever find another adversary with a similar sized sword. I mean scale wise the thing must be bigger than a sky scraper.

[GoktimusPrime]

A sword is absolutely a far more personal and romantic weapon than a ranged weapon like a gun. Combatants have to get up and personal with a melee weapon. The romantic theory^idealistic fantasy is that you can see your opponent's face as you fight them and that killing another person from a distance is cowardice. This was meant to be the rationale behind why the Samurai favoured swords over guns (reality: Samurai loved guns!) and also why in Wonder Woman we see Diana accuse that sniper of "fighting without honour"... even though the Amazonians in that movie certainly have archers who can also do the same thing. And we also see Diana practising archery, so... yeah. :p

But yeah, up close melee combat means that the combatants can directly interact and speak with each other as they fight. From a story-telling POV it allows for a lot of emotion to be poured into a fight scene; e.g. Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in The Return of the Jedi. As physically intense as the fight was, it was even more intense at an emotional level. You just don't get that same level of interpersonal intensity with ranged weaponry where ultimately you're just attempting to eliminate another hostile target rather than viewing them as a human being.

This is also why in Europe the Church initially protested against the use of bows and arrows as they felt that it didn't allow Knights the opportunity to show mercy to opponents if they just shot them like numbers instead fighting them like human beings. But of course the sheer tactical advantage of range fighting meant that the Church's protests fell on deaf ears... and rightly so, because bringing an army armed with swords to a fight where the enemy army has ballistic arrow capability would be suicide. Even the Church conceded to this by the time firearms came along. Still... clergy were forbidden from using either blades or guns, they were only allowed to use blunt weapons like maces and clubs. Because somehow slowly bludgeoning an opponent to death was considered more merciful than a quick stab/slice or shot. <shrugs> :o

I suppose we like to see more major characters with swords for that romantic reason, but... it really doesn't make sense. As I said before, even Star Wars had to create the Force as a reason why lightsabre wielders could still use a melee weapon in a universe where people have range weapons like blasters. And even then their ability was limited, as shown during Order 66 when Clone Troopers were able to overwhelm the Jedi.
https://image.ibb.co/fm77FL/starwars-order66.jpg
The Jedi were armed with lightsabres because they were peacekeepers, not soldiers.
"I can only protect you. I cannot fight a war for you." - Qui-Gon Jinn

[FatalityPitt]

I like Fort Max's sword, but always thought is kind of silly as a weapon... I mean scale wise the thing must be bigger than a sky scraper.

Cool-looking but too over-the-top and impractical for real-world applications... Sort of reminds me of Red Sonja's chainmail bikini... (I'm gonna get barred from this site one day.. I can feel it..)


... The romantic theory^idealistic fantasy is that you can see your opponent's face as you fight them and that killing another person from a distance is cowardice. This was meant to be the rationale behind why the Samurai favoured swords over guns (reality: Samurai loved guns!) and also why in Wonder Woman we see Diana accuse that sniper of "fighting without honour"... even though the Amazonians in that movie certainly have archers who can also do the same thing. And we also see Diana practising archery, so... yeah. :p

.... You just don't get that same level of interpersonal intensity with ranged weaponry where ultimately you're just attempting to eliminate another hostile target rather than viewing them as a human being.

This is also why in Europe the Church initially protested against the use of bows and arrows as they felt that it didn't allow Knights the opportunity to show mercy to opponents if they just shot them like numbers instead fighting them like human beings.

I think this is why it sometimes feels appropriate (to me anyway) to see characters like Optimus Prime (or Laser Prime) brandishing a sword. There's something about it that seems to go with their personality, i.e. bravely confronting the enemy face-to-face, going against tough odds, never taking the easy way out, offering the other side mercy, etc. .


But of course the sheer tactical advantage of range fighting meant that the Church's protests fell on deaf ears... and rightly so, because bringing an army armed with swords to a fight where the enemy army has ballistic arrow capability would be suicide. Even the Church conceded to this by the time firearms came along. Still... clergy were forbidden from using either blades or guns, they were only allowed to use blunt weapons like maces and clubs. Because somehow slowly bludgeoning an opponent to death was considered more merciful than a quick stab/slice or shot. <shrugs> :o

I suppose we like to see more major characters with swords for that romantic reason, but... it really doesn't make sense. As I said before, even Star Wars had to create the Force as a reason why lightsabre wielders could still use a melee weapon in a universe where people have range weapons like blasters. And even then their ability was limited, as shown during Order 66 when Clone Troopers were able to overwhelm the Jedi.

Besides needing to get near to the enemy and face them, I think another thing that makes the sword-wielder seem more admirable is the amount of skill it would take to fight with a sword and win. With a gun, it's literally just point and shoot.

I definitely agree that having a gun is tactically superior than wielding close quarter melee weapons. So much so that it's almost no contest. It's also arguably more merciful because it can kill instantly.

I think what makes the sword look impressive in a lot of fantasy/sci-fi fiction is the symbolism, and how it reminds the audience of characters from classic literature like King Arthur, Beowulf and Yoshitsune. There's just something about the sword that's heroic (even though it can just as easily be used for villainy, i.e. murder).

[GoktimusPrime]

The Samurai did still use swords for personal duels, but when it came to open combat or warfare, it was predominantly ranged weapons (arrows and guns). But many of the romantic examples we see are from an age either pre-dating firearms, or pre-dating modern assault rifles. After all, swords and bayonets were still in use as recently as WWI. But WWII saw the advent of the semi-automatic machine gun which became a complete game changer on the battlefield and has since rendered melee combat practically useless. Try carrying a sword into a combat zone in Syria or Afghanistan and I wouldn't rate your chances of survival.

In actuality a sword vs gun fight would end up looking something like this...
https://image.ibb.co/iGJLLL/temp.jpg

Using inferior weaponry or even inferior fighting techniques only works if both parties agree to it. But in actual combat both sides are going to try to achieve and maintain superiority over the enemy. Only an idiot would knowingly and deliberately forfeit an obvious tactical advantage like superior weaponry. And indeed armies have always kept secrets from each other to prevent tactical advantages from falling into enemy hands. To this day we still have no idea how to make Greek fire. The Ancient Greeks took that secret with them to their graves, and the closest that we've come is with the advent of napalm. But we've yet to exactly replicate the deadly properties of Greek fire.

[FruitBuyer]

It kinda bothers me how over wanked swords are in fiction. There are superior melee weapons out their but it's almost always swords as the ULTIMATE WEHPON

[GoktimusPrime]

It all boils down to the romance and fantasy over practical reality. You can have drawn out fights with swords where characters can banter between each other. I remember the first time I played Counterstrike and I was shocked at how quickly I died after taking just one shot. I felt robbed until my mates reminded me that this is closer to actual combat, and yeah, taking a bullet will kill you. And yes, yes, I know that there are other FPS games which are far more realistic than Counterstrike, but CS sticks in my mind because it was the first game that I played that showed a more realistic portrayal of gun combat. Actually, Contra and Super C on the Famicom/NES was similarly realistic in that it only took one hit to kill you, but that was a side scroller plus everything else in the game was sheer fantasy (like being able to do flip jumps over incoming shots etc.) :p

But yeah, you can see in that picture that I put in my last post that people still wore personal suits of armour before the advent of modern firearms, but since then that level of personal armour has drastically changed. Soldiers today don't wear suits of armour designed to absorb direct hits. Combat helmets and most body armours aren't designed to stop bullets but rather to protect the wearer from fragmentation and impact injuries like concussion. There are types of armour that are tougher, such as those worn by explosive ordnance disposal operatives, but they sacrifice mobility and comfort for added protection. Most ground troops wear lighter armour that offers them greater comfort and mobility at the expense of protection. There are obviously different grades of post-modern armour, so I am generalising here. But it's certainly not like during Ancient or earlier Modern times where armour was able to take direct blows.

This is why chest thrusts are an impractical technique because the breastplate would absorb it and all you'd do is push the opponent back, but you won't pierce his chest. Actual sword techniques aim at openings in armour, typically the flanks between the neck and shoulder, and are designed to cut and slice rather than stab. This is one (of several) differences between Kenjutsu (https://ittendojo.org/Site/themed_images/ITR-3-nivo-sm.JPG) and Kendo (https://c1.staticflickr.com/7/6011/5998398738_cfcf4850c5_b.jpg). If you look at the image link for Kendo, you'll see that these opponents are poking at each other's chest, which can score a point in Kendo matches. But they are ultimately useless techniques in a real fight. Compare this with the image link I've provided for Kenjutsu, and you can see that the bloke in the blue top is swinging his sword down at a slightly diagonal angle and he's aimed for the neck. This is an inherent weak spot in all types of armour because obviously you need some space for neck/head mobility in a fight.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ya know... guys like Blast Off could potentially have one of the most underrated weapons -- orbital strikes. Blast Off's G1 bio does state that Blast Off can burn a hole through a rocketing ICBM at a range of 19,312km. That's pretty intense. It also states that he can hit targets on the ground from orbit. Now his bio also states that the potency of his laser is reduced by up to 80% in atmosphere. I'm assuming that its potency in hitting a cruising ICBM is greater than hitting an on the ground target, so maybe it's only reduced by say 20% in the upper atmosphere or stratosphere, I don't know. And one would assume that it's reduced by 0% in a vacuum. Either way, it seems like Blast Off could do some considerable damage from orbit. Just imagine if they gave him a better gun.

https://i.ibb.co/bPRcqf5/temp.jpg
Combining to form Bruticus seems kinda redundant now :p

[TaZZerath]

Combining to form Bruticus seems kinda redundant now :p

Maybe this is why he was demoted in Combiner Wars for a Jetformer instead :D

I can imagine the group meeting beforehand....

ONSLAUGHT: Okay guys we're finally getting an upgrade. We're gonna have better articulation, some snazzy new vehicle modes, and tighter combining joints. So before we proceed, anyone have any questions?

*Brawl raises his hand*

ONSLAUGHT: *sigh* Brawl, if you're gonna ask me for a double barrel turret again, I swear to Primus...
BRAWL: No it aint that, boss. I was reading Ozformers the other day and-
ONSLAUGHT: WHATformers?
BRAWL: Ozformers. It's a human website in Oztraylia where people discuss us.
*murmuring around the group*
ONSLAUGHT: Ok so we target this "Oztraylia" in with Bruticus first, but do go on...
BRAWL: Well, one of their members said that Blast Off has this CRAZY powerful orbital cannon.
*all members turn to face Blast off*
BLAST OFF *looking bewildered*: What?
BRAWL: Yeah apparently he can disintegrate targets from orbit with a single shot.
ONSLAUGHT: You been holding out on us, BO?
BLAST OFF *turns to a very nervous looking Swindle*: I TOLD you they wouldn't understand!
BRAWL: Thing is, the effectiveness in atmosphere is REALLY weak.
VORTEX: No, no, no, no. This won't work. We're all PLANET based vehicles! Whats the slagging point of it?! Get rid of it and get something PRACTICAL for Unicron's sake!
BLAST OFF: Oh, I see, so AS USUSAL, I have to be the one who caters for EVERYONE ELSE! Well, not THIS TIME! SCREW you guys I'm OUTTA HERE. *storms out*
Silence lingers in the air....
SWINDLE *trying to take some heat off*: So, uh, all in favour of a new partner? I know a guy, jet, same brown colour, would fit with the group....
ONSLAUGHT:..... does he mind a name change? Coz, y'know, Bruticus can't really cope with remembering a new one.
SWINDLE: If I arm him with some upgrades, a name change would be the LEAST he would do!
ONSLAUGHT: Well all right then. All in favour?

[GoktimusPrime]

The Combaticons attacked Canberra in 1987... faulty memory circuits, I suppose.

[SharkyMcShark]

Ya know... guys like Blast Off could potentially have one of the most underrated weapons -- orbital strikes. Blast Off's G1 bio does state that Blast Off can burn a hole through a rocketing ICBM at a range of 19,312km. That's pretty intense. It also states that he can hit targets on the ground from orbit. Now his bio also states that the potency of his laser is reduced by up to 80% in atmosphere. I'm assuming that its potency in hitting a cruising ICBM is greater than hitting an on the ground target, so maybe it's only reduced by say 20% in the upper atmosphere or stratosphere, I don't know. And one would assume that it's reduced by 0% in a vacuum. Either way, it seems like Blast Off could do some considerable damage from orbit. Just imagine if they gave him a better gun.

https://i.ibb.co/bPRcqf5/temp.jpg
Combining to form Bruticus seems kinda redundant now :p


Oh, it's beautiful

[UltraMarginal]

Give Him some depleted uranium or something else as ridiculously dense and he wouldn't even have to shoot it, he could just drop it. accuracy would suck but the damaged caused would make up for it.

[Raptormesh]

And another thing is, a lot of writers don't make characters fight with melee weapons properly either. They typically have them attack each other's weapons instead of attacking the opponent. e.g. swords bouncing off each other. This makes absolutely no sense. The objective is to kill the enemy, not to play percussion by whacking your swords against each other. Also, swords don't bounce. When two blades meet they lock and the two fighters engage in a kind of sword-to-sword wrestling match, because the first guy to lose is going to get sliced. Admittedly I have limited knowledge of melee weapon fighting, but I'm sure that trained melee weapon martial artists here like 1AZRAEL1 can shed more light on this matter. :)



This is very true and is often quite entertaining, striking the right distance is like 80% of the skill sometimes.

Also you don't want to lock blades for more than a fraction of a second. You either try to use it and unfoot your opponent or go in for a grapple(can be more effective than prolonging the fight). There's a general guideline where the top third of the blade is used for cutting, the middle third for parry and the bottom third for blocking. Swords are valuable(and only used as last resort, guns/bows/spears are more efficient) and therefore you don't want to keep smashing it against another.

Source: Iaidoka