MISB Question

[Meister]

Wasn't sure whether this question required its own thread or would be better posted under feed back for TLTC so I just did both.

I ordered MP-13 Soundwave from The Little Toy Company last week and received delivery today which I was quite happy with.

I’m a MISB collector for Masterpieces so when I opened the delivery box I always check to see the condition of the box. It had a bit of damage on one of the rear corners of the box (which unfortunately may occur on the odd occasion) but then I noticed that the top of the box had been double taped, which to me means opening the box makes little difference for MISB. So I decided to open it to have a look at the old cassette player but to my surprise, the plastic toy enclosure had also been double taped.

While I’ve heard of customs sometimes opening the box to have a look at whats inside, I’ve never heard of them also opening the plastic toy enclosure as well. Is this a normal thing?, cause right now I feel like I’ve been given a second hand product which is not what I paid for.

Would appreciate it if anyone could shed some light on this seeing as though this is the first MP I’ve bought from an Australian seller since the whole PC ordeal and I’m on the verge of going ape sh*t over this.

[UltraMarginal]

I honestly can't remember if my soundwave was double taped, but I bought the Hasbro release also.

I don't recall if there was a double taping issue with MP soundwaves, it's possible that a more recent run may have been re-opened in the factory to include an accessory or confirm/fix an internally identified QC problem. Given the age of the first release, any recent release might not have garnered enough attention from MISB collectors to have made a note of this in any of our news outlets.

I would be extremely surprised if TLTC intentionally sold you a second hand MP as MISB.

You could politely email them and ask if they are aware of double taping, but I doubt they would have any information on hand. Having opened it, you can't really ask them if they have another you could swap with.

[Meister]

Thanks for the response :)

This was the Takara release, it was advertised as a re-issue on their site.

I only opened the box (cause it had been double taped, meaning it had already been opened, so what's the differnece really), but not the plastic enclosure that sounbdwave was in, that's when I noticed that it had also been double taped as well which to me means someone had already opened it up and taken the figure out (that's second hand to me).

I was intending to write to TLTC about it but thought I would check here first to see whether this was a normal thing or not. The figure looks OK (again I haven't opened the plastic enclosure so I haven't handled it to know if there are any issues) but its the principle, I payed good money for a brand new product, not a second hand product which has already been opened ( I understand a box being opened but not the plastic enclosure as well), and the fact that I prefer to keep my MP's MISB I'm pretty peeved about it.

So yeah before I give TLTC an ear full, I wanted to make sure first whether the double taping of the plastic enclosure was a normal thing or not.

[DaptoDog]

Ah the old double taped chestnut. I hear you man.

As a part MISB collector I've learnt to live with it. A lot of the masterpiece figures are coming double taped these days. Now that I collect doubles of most MP's I hope that I receive at least one nice single taped box so that I can keep that MISB and open the other one to transform and display but it doesn't always work out.

However, I can't recall double taping on the inside plastic shell.

For what it is worth, as long as the duplicate tape matches the original I don't think it has much impact on the value. In fact I've read that someone was able to get an AFA grading on a double taped MP so hopefully that's of some comfort.

In future I would just leave it sealed even if it's double taped unless you want to display it. In this case I agree with UltraMarginal that there is not much that can be done about it now except to confirm with TLTC that is was not returned by a prior customer.

[GoktimusPrime]

I preordered my MP Soundwave before it first came out, so mine was the first TakaraTOMY issue and it wasn't double taped. I'm not even sure why this matters.

For what it is worth, as long as the duplicate tape matches the original I don't think it has much impact on the value. In fact I've read that someone was able to get an AFA grading on a double taped MP so hopefully that's of some comfort.
As long as the toy sells for what you paid for then you're not making a loss. So unless double taping reduces the value of a sealed toy then I don't see how it's an issue.

[UltraMarginal]

I figure if the factory cuts the tape to get into the box for some reason, unless they're doing something with the instructions or it's a visual inspection they can perform without opening the clamshell, the likelihood of there also being double tape on the clamshell is extremely high.

Now that you've talked about it a bit more I vaguely remember something about double taping on the clamshell of a MP soundwave someone bought from Robot Kingdom in the last 12 months.

[Ravagecat]

I've seen the double taping on the inside shell. I'd have to look through my MP boxes to find out exactly which figure it was I saw it on, but if memory serves I think it was one of the cone heads. If/when I get time I'll take a look for ya :cool:

[Bladestorm]

Perhaps they sourced from a reseller in Hong Kong or China.

Double taping happens over there for various reasons: to add security measures, to add/remove additional inserts (especially Mainland China), to check for no defects (allegedly HK Hasbro sometimes do this but I've never had it confirmed by someone from Hasbro).

I've never heard of a double taping INSIDE the box however so I feel you are justified in questioning the source of the product. When I buy MISB I like to know I'm the first person outside the factory to put my hands on the figure.

I used to buy from HK stores I knew pulled their stock straight out of the case into my hand as I too got sick of questioning why boxes were double taped.

[Galvatran]

I preordered my MP Soundwave before it first came out, so mine was the first TakaraTOMY issue and it wasn't double taped. I'm not even sure why this matters.
Seek to understand the position of a MISB Collector. You may not agree with or appreciate their collecting habits but at least you'll have a better understanding why it matters to these collectors.

I would have thought a person like yourself who has been actively collecting Transformers toys for several decades and been in regular contact with the local Transformers fandom would have conversed with a few MISB Collectors by now.

[Meister]

Thanks for the responses

The double tape on the plastic enclosure did look the same but it’s not like I’m an expert on tape.

I guess I just got a dodgie feeling about it all, buying something brand new and then seeing the double tape on the box and then after looking inside seeing double tape on the plastic enclosure as well, didn’t feel like I got a new product, and that’s not even taking into account MISB preference

I’ll probably shoot TLTC an e-mail to see if they are aware of any double taping but I doubt I will get anywhere with it.

If anyone has encountered the double tape on the inside plastic enclosure, please let me know, it might not fix the disappointment but at least i can take solace in the fact that I wasn’t ripped off

Thanks again

[Jetfire in the sky]

I purchased case fresh MP Skywarps when I was living in China. I even opened the cases myself, the Skywarp I had, the box was double taped on the top not the bottom, and the inner tray is all double taped. I have just double checked the box to make sure.

Edit: I just remembered this had JP and CN separate instructions in their own baggies. The tape looks identical all over.

[High_Q]

The only MP of mine that's double-taped (double-taped on both sides) is MP-24 Star Saber, which I got from Amiami. As far as I can tell, none of the sticky tapes on that box were cut, so i can only guess that it was double-taped in the factory just to make sure both ends are secure. :confused:

I bought my MP-28 from TLTC, and it was single-taped on both sides.

[DELTAprime]

Meister, see my response in the TLTC thread.

The TLDR is that it's a normal part of the QA.

And no it doesn't matter where you buy them from. I've gotten plenty of Takara items from Japan that are double taped.

[ampoldj]

I figure if the factory cuts the tape to get into the box for some reason, unless they're doing something with the instructions or it's a visual inspection they can perform without opening the clamshell, the likelihood of there also being double tape on the clamshell is extremely high.

Now that you've talked about it a bit more I vaguely remember something about double taping on the clamshell of a MP soundwave someone bought from Robot Kingdom in the last 12 months.

Ahhh RK...my first and only purchase a $220 MP Dirge which came with a ripped tape (not even resealed) asked them said it was normal factory inspection??? I had my first double tape TF which is the Takara DotM Optimus / Jetfire leader. It drove me nuts as i bought it from an internet seller, good thing there were lots of shops in Manila that imported that one and i was able to check all of them were double taped. I dont mind it as long as it is cut properly and resealed.

[GoktimusPrime]

Just out of curiosity, why is this an issue?

[DaptoDog]

Just out of curiosity, why is this an issue?

Double taping of the box clamshell may imply that the figure is not brand new. This could upset a MISB collector (eg Meister as he stated in his opening post) since they can no longer claim it is MISB and as such would expect it to sell for less than if it was single taped. It could also annoy those looking to open it since they may take that as a sign that it is second hand.

[GoktimusPrime]

Is the RRP for double-taped figures less than that for single-taped figures?
Also, if a person is the first to purchase and own a toy from a retail source, then it's not second hand, is it? So long as a person isn't selling a toy for less than what they purchased it for then they can't be making a loss. And if you are the first to own the toy after initial retail purchase the it's a first-hand purchase.

Not meaning to sound facetious, just trying to understand this. I do understand the desire to not want to pay full price for something that isn't brand new though. I agree that any toy that isn't MISB isn't worth full quid, and this is something that I found disagreeable about the MPMs sold at Zing! stores here. But in this case the toys that I saw in store didn't just have their boxes opened, they were handled and transformed by staff for display purposes. They were essentially selling ex display items, which I think ought to be sold for cheaper. Hence skipping those toys was easy peasy for me.

Do double taped toys stand a better chance of not having both tapes naturally run out of stick in time? Because in 1998 I got a second Transmetal Optimus Primal -- from the USA (and was a slightly different variant than the one we had released here). But a few years ago one of the pieces of sticky tape that kept the toy sealed just naturally fell off, so technically my toy isn't MISB despite the fact that I have never opened this toy. Even after the tape fell off I didn't open the box to peek inside; it's still unopened. But I suppose without that piece of tape there's no way that I could absolutely prove it. But still... if I wanted to sell this toy for the equivalent price of a Voyager Class figure today (say around $50), would I be able to sell it for such or would people insist on paying less because that bit of sticky tape came off?

I suppose if this sort of thing bothers a buyer then it might be better to source toys from sellers that indicate if a toy is double taped or not (e.g. Mandarake).

[KELPIE]

In fact I've read that someone was able to get an AFA grading on a double taped MP so hopefully that's of some comfort.
AFA have really lowered their requirements in what they consider MISB. It's very frustrating really.


Is the RRP for double-taped figures less than that for single-taped figures?
You need to stop thinking about it in terms of RRP. Yes some purchase for flipping purposes however there are a lot who don't. Remember we're collectors.

Also, if a person is the first to purchase and own a toy from a retail source, then it's not second hand, is it? So long as a person isn't selling a toy for less than what they purchased it for then they can't be making a loss. And if you are the first to own the toy after initial retail purchase the it's a first-hand purchase.
There is no way of telling now is there? It could have been a returned product for all the customer knows.

Also, if you take pride in having a MISB collection, it's akin to having a loose collection with a KO Mirage, he looks the same, no one really knows it's not unless you investigate closely, so why does it matter (remember we aren't talking about any financial implications here)?

It matters because the collector knows and their collection feels incomplete.


Do double taped toys stand a better chance of not having both tapes naturally run out of stick in time? Because in 1998 I got a second Transmetal Optimus Primal -- from the USA (and was a slightly different variant than the one we had released here). But a few years ago one of the pieces of sticky tape that kept the toy sealed just naturally fell off, so technically my toy isn't MISB despite the fact that I have never opened this toy. Even after the tape fell off I didn't open the box to peek inside; it's still unopened. But I suppose without that piece of tape there's no way that I could absolutely prove it. But still... if I wanted to sell this toy for the equivalent price of a Voyager Class figure today (say around $50), would I be able to sell it for such or would people insist on paying less because that bit of sticky tape came off?
Double tape does not guarantee that it will hold better.

As for your example, it will depend entirely on the collector. some will look past it and purchase, others, like myself wouldn't buy it no matter how much you're asking for it. It simply isn't an MISB any more, the "S" standing for Sealed, not closed after all.

Also correct. There is no way for you to prove it. If you had the item AFA'd prior to the tape popping, then you'd probably have a better chance.

Hope this helps.

[GoktimusPrime]

Getting a toy directly from a retailer - i.e. non-second hand sale, would guarantee that the toy isn't second hand. If it has been opened then it would have been done so by the manufacturer, not the retailer or another customer. But it's still effectively sealed; it's just that for some reason the toy has been resealed, but it was done at the point of manufacture. Remember that none of us will be the first person to touch the toy as the toy has been touched by many hands during assembly and packaging anyway.

But I suppose if single tape really matters that much, then there must be other ways around it. If I were fussed about this I would find a friend who's not a sealed collector and make a prior arrangement each time we order the same toy (but preferably not order from the same source) to swap the toy should mine be double taped and my friend's be not double taped. And if we both have double-taped toys then just hold onto the the double-taped one but put out a "Want To Trade" notice to fans looking for anyone with a single-taped toy to swap. Now it would be really important that I would pre-order these toys and get them as soon as possible, because if I do need to trade it then I need to basically alert other collectors before they go and open their toys. Because for a loose collector we wouldn't give a hoot either way.

For example, I'm going to pre-order MP Hound ASAP. Now let's say a MISB collector insists on having theirs single taped. That person might pre-order the toy and pay for express shipping, and if it arrives double taped, I might agree to swap mine with theirs if mine arrives single taped. This agreement would need to be made ASAP because I'm gonna be cracking Hound open the moment it arrives! ;) But if I have a prior arrangement to swap it with someone else should mine be single taped, then I might hold off.


You need to stop thinking about it in terms of RRP. Yes some purchase for flipping purposes however there are a lot who don't. Remember we're collectors.
As collectors who never intend on selling our toys, who cares how much the toys are selling for on the secondary market? And as I said, even if you do take the option to sell it, financially/mathematically speaking as long as you don't sell it for less than what you paid for then you're not making a loss.

But yeah, if people insist on having single-taped figures then I suppose there are measures they can take to help get it. Worse case scenario, just hang onto that toy as a place-holder until you can find a single-taped toy, then either do a direct exchange or sell off your initial double-taped figure. Unless you're selling it for less than what you paid then you're making zero loss.

[griffin]

Getting a toy directly from a retailer - i.e. non-second hand sale, would guarantee that the toy isn't second hand.

No it doesn't, which is why it is a big issue here - if the toy has been swapped out for a knock off or a defective toy, it may not be noticed until it is too late... and is an unnecessary hassle if it is noticed.
If you bought it from a physical store, remember that most retailers here take back items for refunds, and even though we've seen how damaged those returned toys can be (or be replaced with a completely different toy), someone could have damaged the toy or replaced it with a knock off.
Or, if bought/pre-ordered from an online store, most sell second-hand toys (which includes sealed, and alleged sealed toys), and many smaller businesses are run by collectors who fill out their private collections with their own stock, and who knows if some are even swapping out their old toys with newer ones (like people who have returned toys to a retailer for a refund, replacing the toy with the earlier release that they already bought due to better colours or fixed engineering issues).

And as people have noted, there are those who only buy sealed toys to have them on display sealed, as people do with non-action figure statues... as well as those who keep certain expensive or rare figures sealed, to maintain the higher value that sealed toys have*, in case they need to sell part/all of their collection.
Not everyone is like you and I, intending to die with their collection. :p How many people do you still know from the first year or two of this community are still fans with their collection intact.... it means the toys with better value (the sealed ones) are a better investment.

* no sane person would claim that a sealed toy has the same "RRP" or resale value as an out-of-packaging toy. The whole point of prioritising sealed toys (for me) is to almost guarantee (outside of factory QC issues) that it is a legit toy, it has all its accessories, and that it isn't damaged. Once a box has been opened (resealed or not), you can't guarantee that... you can't risk as much money on that possibility. And you can't rely on "consumer protection", demanding refunds... even in Australia. Just look at Premium Collectables - a registered business that is bound by Consumer Law, but didn't... so is now facing court. And in general in Australia, Consumer Protection refunds do not cover second hand goods... and it wording on a listing has allowed for a double-taped toy to be deemed a second hand toy, you have no recompense if it does end up being damaged or a knock-off.
When I got the POTP Predaking from OhMyPrimus (from Singapore), the box tape had been roughly cut - that had me worried because that online store sells second hand toys, loose toys, and unlicensed toys (maybe even KOs). And what if something inside had been damaged or obviously swapped out - the online store may be decent enough to do an exchange, but should you really have to go through all that extra time and effort, waiting another 3-4 weeks for your toys.... when it could all have been prevented if they had made sure that the items they were shipping out were still sealed.


BTW, when someone is posting questions here, desperately needing help with something important, people need to focus on answering that request, and be careful not get side-tracked with their opinions or beliefs about the subject matter.

[DELTAprime]

And you can't rely on "consumer protection", demanding refunds... even in Australia.

Also if you're buying in a private sale consumer protections don't apply as the laws only cover actual retailers. There's not much protecting you if buy a double-taped MISB item in a private sale.

That's honestly a reason why for the few CHUG characters I'm looking at loose complete listings with a lot of photos more than MISB.

[GoktimusPrime]

No it doesn't, which is why it is a big issue here - if the toy has been swapped out for a knock off or a defective toy, it may not be noticed until it is too late... and is an unnecessary hassle if it is noticed.
If you bought it from a physical store, remember that most retailers here take back items for refunds, and even though we've seen how damaged those returned toys can be (or be replaced with a completely different toy), someone could have damaged the toy or replaced it with a knock off.
Or, if bought/pre-ordered from an online store, most sell second-hand toys (which includes sealed, and alleged sealed toys), and many smaller businesses are run by collectors who fill out their private collections with their own stock, and who knows if some are even swapping out their old toys with newer ones (like people who have returned toys to a retailer for a refund, replacing the toy with the earlier release that they already bought due to better colours or fixed engineering issues).
:eek: Are you serious? I never knew that sort of stuff happened! :eek:


BTW, when someone is posting questions here, desperately needing help with something important, people need to focus on answering that request, and be careful not get side-tracked with their opinions or beliefs about the subject matter.
Fair enough, I meant no disrespect and was only asking out of curiosity.

Anyway, in the spirit of trying to be more helpful, I'd like to reiterate my suggestion about prearranging trades, or hang onto the double-taped toys as place holders until you are able to trade it with another collector who has a single-sealed figure. Or at worst, repurchase the toy later with a single-taped box and sell off your MISB double-taped box. Non-sealed collectors won't care... at worst you're still selling an MIB toy, just not MISB.

Another choice might be to just try and buy the toy yourself from a physical store. That way you can visually inspect the condition of the toy first hand before purchasing. This may require shopping from specialty import stores, which admittedly are very expensive (due to Australian import taxes/duties/levies), and also increasingly rare with the shift towards online shopping. But say if you live in Melbourne, you might be able to physically walk into a place like The Little Toy Company and inspect the toy for yourself first hand (I personally don't rate TLTC for preordering stuff, but they seem pretty good for already in-stock items).

If the toy is in Japan, options include:
* Attempting to stick with a reputable online dealer. I've never ever received a double taped figure from anyone, and I usually get most of my JP TFs from HLJ.
* Stores like Mandarake (which are both brick and mortar and online) will explicitly tell you if a toy is double taped, and I think the prices for those figures are lower. Mandarake are usually pretty good with transparency when it comes to the nature and condition of the toys they sell. Here's (https://order.mandarake.co.jp/order/DetailPage/item?shop=55&lang=ja&itemCode=1081022955) an example of a toy that they sold where the description lists it as having been double-tape resealed by the manufacturer (heh, double-taped Doublecross :p).
* I realise that this option isn't available to everyone, but if you have a friend in Japan you could ask them to personally try and hunt down a single taped figure for you at their local stores.

[griffin]

:eek: Are you serious? I never knew that sort of stuff happened! :eek:

This old topic for items found in Australia (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=7437)... and more examples from America (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Toy_swapping).
Those ones are obvious... but since it happens, how can you be sure that an item that is no longer sealed when it arrives to you, hadn't been swapped out with a KO or a defective toy. Even if you do notice something wrong with it, you can't be guaranteed a replacement (even if it is still in stock), and even if you do, how much extra time and hassle is that. All avoidable if it remains sealed, or single-taped.

[GoktimusPrime]

I suppose pre-ordering toys ought minimise the odds of this happening. If a pre-ordered toy is double-taped then it's likely to have been resealed by the manufacturer than by a dodgy retailer (again, stick with trusted sources) or returned by a previous customer. And stores like Mandarake will mention if the double-taping was done by the manufacturer or not (well, if it's not then it's just listed as loose complete in box). And if possible consider sourcing from somewhere where you or a friend can physically inspect the box upon purchase.

If it's a locally released toy then it might be better not to pre-order the toy and just get it from a local shop, that way you can personally inspect the toy. But if it's a toy that's only available overseas, then I would recommend befriending fans in other countries and getting someone you trust to check the toy for you. Easier for say US exclusive toys (e.g. Wal Mart reissues) since it's another Anglophone countries. Understandably non-Anglophone countries like Japan will present a language barrier, although there are retailers like Robotoyz - run by an Aussie who's currently based in Tokyo (I've actually met the guy before). And HLJ is run by a Canadian, and Mandarake serves customers in multiple languages. There are options to try and optimise the chances of getting single-taped toys.

[drifand]

It also sucks form MISB collectors when the tape snapped.

I have gotten this incident twice on Masterpieces, but it doesn't affect me as I open my toys to know if the toys is actually worth it. :)


Takara should learn from Fantoys having a good quality seal but is another topic I guess.


If you are a MISB collector, I would choose carefully where I order from.

[reillyd]

If you're OCD (there's a strong correlation between 'collecting' hoarding, and obsessive compulsive disorder) then buying MISB is a really important selling point. You may not open the toy, but if you decide to pare back your collection at some point, having had the seal broken and retapped raises suspicions, and you really won't get that absolutely crazy 'I must have it now' premium you get on some toys. I say this not disparagingly, because I have paid extraordinary amounts for G1 MISB or MOSC toys...... but could never bring myself to purchase a MIB toy, and have sometimes been hoodwinked with a listing that says misb and you find the tape has been broken, or resealed (revealing is the worst, because you don't know what they did to it BEFORE they put it back in the box). While other people can save a fortune by buying loose toys, OCD people could pass on a holy grail item because its possibly contaminated. I see beautiful pieces like that on Mandarake that I could never cope with touching.
I can completely understand where the sentiment 'why would it matter' (on a doubletaped/resealed item) on a toy purchase comes from. But if you think that then you're probably healthy :)

Reselling might not be your goal right now but it might be at some point in the distant future. It also means that the buyer (of a MISB item) will know that the toy hasn't been played with, damaged, possibly broken and resealed. Though I have heard horror stories of people buying MISB g1 with factory errors or broken parts!

[Skullcruncher]

* Stores like Mandarake (which are both brick and mortar and online) will explicitly tell you if a toy is double taped, and I think the prices for those figures are lower. Mandarake are usually pretty good with transparency when it comes to the nature and condition of the toys they sell.

Mandarake are very poor IMO, I purchased a MISB G1 cyclonus from their webstore, turned out to be double taped on both sides. Description and price said never opened. They never replied to my followups. I still have it, it sits in a dark corner reminding me never to visit the site again.

Also when I have visited their stores they all had some sort of KO at astronomical prices, the staff also were not interested when trying to show them comparisons from websites.(eg High end tfs).

[Galvatran]

Mandarake are very poor IMO, I purchased a MISB G1 cyclonus from their webstore, turned out to be double taped on both sides. Description and price said never opened. They never replied to my followups. I still have it, it sits in a dark corner reminding me never to visit the site again.
Agree. Mandarake online store is abysmal for MISB collector. My biff is description doesn't accurately reflect the true state of the item. Purchased a New Year Special Convoy believing it was never opened only to see the twist tie holding the trailer was mangled & box double taped. :mad:

[GoktimusPrime]

Mandarake are very poor IMO, I purchased a MISB G1 cyclonus from their webstore, turned out to be double taped on both sides. Description and price said never opened. They never replied to my followups. I still have it, it sits in a dark corner reminding me never to visit the site again.

Also when I have visited their stores they all had some sort of KO at astronomical prices, the staff also were not interested when trying to show them comparisons from websites.(eg High end tfs).
:eek: Anything above ￥0 for a counterfeit is astronomically expensive IMHO.
I would've complained to the store manager if I'd experienced anything like that. I've personally experienced nothing but top notch service from Mandarake staff. The only thing was that selling toys there won't get you much money.

[griffin]

This old topic for items found in Australia (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=7437)... and more examples from America (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Toy_swapping).
Those ones are obvious... but since it happens, how can you be sure that an item that is no longer sealed when it arrives to you, hadn't been swapped out with a KO or a defective toy. Even if you do notice something wrong with it, you can't be guaranteed a replacement (even if it is still in stock), and even if you do, how much extra time and hassle is that. All avoidable if it remains sealed, or single-taped.


More examples of toy swapping (https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/threads/worst-repack-jobs-in-the-wild.1145427/)... for your amusement.