Toys Then and Now

[Autocon]

What do you think of toys now compared to earlier toys from the past?

Ive noticed a lot more of these mystery / surprise toys where you dont know which figure you are buying. They dont do much either just a plastic lump. No articulation or anything. Id say the fun factor of play and what the toy can actually do has decreased. This is in terms overall across the toy aisle as there are a couple of toys that are very interactive but cost alot.

[GoktimusPrime]

I find that toy lines are often a mixed bag. With G1 we had a lot of really cool toys like the Autobot Cars etc., but there were also duds like Firecons etc. We all know that Beast Wars was the big game changer, but even then things continued to be a mixed bag. BW gave us loads of incredible figures that forever changed the landscape of toy design, but it also gave us some questionable toys like Retrax etc. Even MPs have had their ups (e.g. Inferno) and downs (e.g. MP3). But on the whole the majority of toys in most lines tend to be reasonably good. It's the reason why Transformers has enjoyed unbroken longevity for 35 years. Toy lines that allow inferior toys to take over are doomed to extinction, like many other toy lines from the 1980s that have experienced periods of non-production or are just no longer around today.

The main thing I find that's changed with Transformers more recently is a diversification of the line. Now this has its ups and downs. I think the advantage of this is that it doesn't allow any single concept to threaten the brand as Action Masters did with G1. The downside to this is that it can allow each of these "sub lines" to become more homogeneous and, in itself, lack diversity. Take Cyberverse for example. Whether you love or loathe this series the fact is that it's not an incredibly diverse line; it's put all of its eggs into a small basket. But the upside is that if Cyberverse were to totally tank, it would unlikely deal a critical blow to the Transformers brand. We still have Siege, Studio Series, Masterpiece, Rescue Bots, reissues etc. to help keen the TF brand afloat. On the whole I think the brand diversity has become a good thing. It gives us consumers more choice. In 1990 if you didn't like Action Masters then tough. They were half the freakin' toy line. Don't like Micromasters either? Well, aside from the Classic reissues, there'd be nothing else for you to collect. Today if you don't like Cyberverse, that's okay. There are still other Transformers lines that you can collect. Compared to previous years we're spoiled for choice.

https://i.ibb.co/4N4xy85/meme-mixedbag.jpg

However there is one thing I really miss about older Transformers lines. Character diversity. Today it seems that almost every Transformer being released is another reimagining of an existing character or character concept. Thinking about all the Transformers that I've purchased this year, aside from Shatter from the Bumblebee Movie line and Bot-Bots, I cannot think of too many other new or original characters. Even CHUG and MP are becoming repetitive as they are increasingly making new toys of characters that already exist in the line, like Springer. Did we really need a new CHUG Springer? Sure, Siege Springer does bring some new things to the table, but ultimately I don't consider much better or worse than Generations Springer. I would much rather see CHUG focus on characters that have never been "CHUGgified" before or even just give us more new characters before revisiting already done characters. "Galactic Man Shockwave" felt like a wasted opportunity, and ditto red chested Swoop. It would've been nice if they'd followed Takara(TOMY)'s footsteps and gave us new characters based on existing variants (e.g. Clampdown, Cordon, Delta Magnus etc.). I'm still happy to get these toys but they seem to lack creativity in terms of developing new characters. They're giving us a third MP Convoy and yet another MP G1 Bumblebee... but really, I'd like to see them continue producing new MPs based on characters never done before. That's why I jumped on pre-ordering MP Hound. I know he's overpriced (even at pre order discount), but I will gladly support TakaraTOMY in their effort to finish the rest of G1 (esp. early G1) as MPs over revisiting already done characters. I'm not completely against revisiting characters per se; MP36 is a significant improvement over MP5 (although at twice the price) and Siege Jetfire is a big improvement over Generations Jetfire; even factoring different price points I consider Siege Jetfire to offer superior dollar value than Generations Jetfire (and I'd say about equal dollar value as Classics Jetfire bearing in mind that Siege is triple the price of Classics).

I have little exposure to blasphemous toylines outside of Transformers, but from what I've observed I've noticed a general decline in value. Star Wars figures today seem to lack the level of detail and articulation as those from the late 90s to mid 00s; the 16cm black boxed figures seem to have about as much detail as the smaller 10cm figures from before. 15 years ago we might've considered them as just upsized versions of the 10cm figures but these days they're viewed as premium deluxe figures because the 10cm figures have become far more simplified. Marvel figures seem to also be of inferior value, especially compared to the old Toy Biz figures. I saw someone's Spider-Man Homecoming Night Monkey figure and it's just dismal. No leg articulation, are you kidding me? And the only accessory is this... claw... thing? Toy Biz's Spider-Man figures in the 21st Century were all superbly articulated -- many with double elbow and knee joints. And they came with bases and reprinted comic books, and all for $15 (or $20 in today's money).

https://i.ibb.co/7vXwkDv/temp.jpg

[shockNwave]

There seems to be a pattern (when it comes to these non-TF figures) that the smaller the figure the greater the detail. They wouldn't dare try for that on the larger figures unless they were aiming at the collector market and even then it would be limited edition like those figures behind the glass displays at Zing.

It's all about cost effectiveness like removing the joints from the legs (which is blasphemous for an action figure aimed at kids).

[GoktimusPrime]

There seems to be a pattern (when it comes to these non-TF figures) that the smaller the figure the greater the detail.
This sometimes holds true for some Transformers toys too.
e.g. Legends Class ROTF Devastator vs Combiner Class ROTF Devastator etc.

[DELTAprime]

I'm somewhat dismayed at the rise of loot box toys. These parents are buying toys up to around $80 for their kids that they don't know what is inside.

I've seen parents buy these stupid things for their kids then have the kid hurridly open it once it's paid for only to have the kid start crying because they already own the toy.

It's like a pokie machine for kids, sometimes you hit the jackpot and get the toy you want, sometimes you get the same toy you already own three of.

What's wrong with knowing what's in the box before you pay for it?

[Autocon]

I'm somewhat dismayed at the rise of loot box toys. These parents are buying toys up to around $80 for their kids that they don't know what is inside.

I've seen parents buy these stupid things for their kids then have the kid hurridly open it once it's paid for only to have the kid start crying because they already own the toy.

It's like a pokie machine for kids, sometimes you hit the jackpot and get the toy you want, sometimes you get the same toy you already own three of.

What's wrong with knowing what's in the box before you pay for it?

Greed.

[shockNwave]

I'm somewhat dismayed at the rise of loot box toys. These parents are buying toys up to around $80 for their kids that they don't know what is inside.

I've seen parents buy these stupid things for their kids then have the kid hurridly open it once it's paid for only to have the kid start crying because they already own the toy.

It's like a pokie machine for kids, sometimes you hit the jackpot and get the toy you want, sometimes you get the same toy you already own three of.

What's wrong with knowing what's in the box before you pay for it?

The best (and ethical as well) loot boxes I know of are the $5 TF Botbot ones.

[kovert]

https://www.kovert.net.au/_otca/sw-1.jpg

Evolution of Hasbro Star Wars figures. Modern articulation with better detail and finish. I didn't bother featuring earlier versions of AT-AT Commander/General Veers because the current 6 inch version is probably the best version (premium format such at Hot Toys aside). The Black Series 6 inch figures, especially with face printing technology, are better representations of the characters than the ones in 3.75 inch form.

[Autocon]

^ how do prices compare?

[kovert]

Back in 1995, 3.75 inch Star Wars figures (five points of articulation) were priced at $8.99 at Toys R Us. In the mid 2000s, 3.75 inch figures were priced at around $14.99 or more. Now, the 3.75 inch figures are priced at around $24.99 or more. Back in 2014, the 6 inch figures were priced at $34.99. The 6 inch figures are now priced at around $39.99.

Prices in AUD and at RRP.

[drifand]

If we are talking from Transformers POINT OF VIEW, I feel it became worse than 10 years ago. Materials are bad, Quality control is bad, paint is lacking, lot of cut corners using holes in plastic.
There used to be a time I am wowed, and I am not talking about just masterpieces, just decent good transformers. I used to ignore 3p figures completely, now I dont.

I also think Toys today are drive by Fandom. It blinds the majority completely whenever a toy is badly made is been "Justified", in complete denial.
Whenever someone points its flaws or stating is at ridiculous prices, it is purely DEFENDED, and justified.

Toys today for collectors are marked up, plus the ridiculous hype of exclusive and Fear of Missing Out causing a toy going up 2 to three times higher than what is actually is.
Companies such as Bandai make "exclusives" as an excuse to justify a high price when an regular is like 1/4 of the price cheaper.

I no longer enjoy collecting toys as an hobby, I feel some people have taken this on board way out of hand and are spending way too much. I seen people spending more than they earn. Give yourself a reality check, How much were you spending 5 years ago on toys, and compare how much are you spending in just a month now. You be in a real shocker.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I no longer enjoy collecting toys as an hobby

Really? :confused: But every post I read from you is so upbeat and positive - I would have never have guessed :eek:



I also think Toys today are drive by Fandom. It blinds the majority completely whenever a toy is badly made is been "Justified", in complete denial.
Whenever someone points its flaws or stating is at ridiculous prices, it is purely DEFENDED, and justified.

Yes, like the great 'paint decline' of the Masterpiece line, it's always the rest of the Fandom's fault isn't it



I feel some people have taken this on board way out of hand and are spending way too much. I seen people spending more than they earn. Give yourself a reality check, How much were you spending 5 years ago on toys, and compare how much are you spending in just a month now. You be in a real shocker.

Who? Who have you seen doing this? Are you being literal? Are there really OzF members that are going increasingly into debt with their bank and/or credit cards because they are spending more money on toys than they actually earn? Do they still buy food, clothing, transport?



If we are talking from Transformers POINT OF VIEW, I feel it became worse than 10 years ago. Materials are bad, Quality control is bad, paint is lacking, lot of cut corners using holes in plastic.
There used to be a time I am wowed, and I am not talking about just masterpieces, just decent good transformers.

Toys today for collectors are marked up, plus the ridiculous hype of exclusive and Fear of Missing Out causing a toy going up 2 to three times higher than what is actually is.
Companies such as Bandai make "exclusives" as an excuse to justify a high price when an regular is like 1/4 of the price cheaper.

I no longer enjoy collecting toys as an hobby

Dude, all jokes aside, I remember writing a genuine response to one of your posts like 3 years ago, suggesting that if you don't enjoy TF's then there are a million other hobbies and interests out there that you may enjoy more. It's 3 years later and you are still bitching about how you don't like the hobby - WHY ARE YOU STILL DOING IT THEN?!

Seriously man, for your own mental health, find something you like to do more.



We all know that Beast Wars was the big game changer, but even then things continued to be a mixed bag. BW gave us loads of incredible figures that forever changed the landscape of toy design, but it also gave us some questionable toys like Retrax etc.]

The only big game changer it was for many of us was it put us off buying TFs for years because we didn’t like organic looking alt-modes and weird looking animals hybrid things :rolleyes:

I know from the hundreds and hundreds of posts you’ve written about it that you love Beast Wars and you are more than welcome to do so, I like it well enough myself. But you really do give it too much credit. Like when you said Transformers wouldn’t exist without Beast Wars and I pointed out that RID(01) was actually what brought many of us back into the fold.

In this case I don’t reckon Beast Wars was THE big game changer - but it’s fine if you do. Just don’t speak for the rest of us. Personally BW marked the lowest point in my toy collecting over the past 35 years.

[Raider]

Whilst I'm a geewuner at heart, that is mostly due to nostalgia. Bot mode on those toys were mostly pretty clunky.

Ever since Combiner Wars came out, I have loved the direction and quality of the new toys. They feel like upgrades to the old G1 version. Yes there are a lot of repaints and retools but that is needed to turn a profit and I'm not complaining about the variety.

This is a transformers renaissance we are going through. Change my mind?

Note: applying this to Transformers only could probably see this on another section of the forums.

[ChlorHex]

I love my G1's (plus diaclones), beast wars, binaltechs... those will always be kept in my collection.
As for modern TFs, that's been well satisfied by 3rd parties... can't go wrong with Gigapower dinos, etc.
They satisfy my desire for articulated G1's with a fair price point.
I don't do brand loyalty... I'm a consumer and I'll get what I want. Lol :p

[BigTransformerTrev]

Personally BW marked the lowest point in my toy collecting over the past 35 years.

Actually I tell a lie. Back in the 90's I bought 1 BW figure (Depthcharge), 2 BM figures (Tankorr and Jetstorm) and 0 MW figures, since they were all repaints of pervious figures with almost random G1 names attached. So I guess Machine Wars was the lowest part of my collecting.

Of course since then an adult collector I've bought figures like 10th Anniversary Waspinator, Machine Wars Soundwave etc. But after G2 ended I really didn't start collecting again until RID(01) when I saw all these cool looking vehicle toys in the stores. It really did revitalize my interest.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I feel there is definitely something for everybody nowadays and whether you?re young or old, there is a Transformers line to scratch your playing or collecting itch. I feel like there was less choice back then.

I?m not a fan of loot box toys, but looking back there?s been various toy concepts over the years that I?ve tended to think lesser of (like Beybladez...does Yu Gi Oh count?) so really I just move on.

One thing that does make me wonder is the price of toys. Without opening the can of worms regarding quality of toys, the fact that toy prices seem to be rising, whilst wage growth is pretty stagnant, does make collecting certain lines a bit on the nose. Maybe someone can crunch some numbers comparing past and present wages proportional to toy cost.

[UltraMarginal]

Whilst I'm a geewuner at heart, that is mostly due to nostalgia. Bot mode on those toys were mostly pretty clunky.

Ever since Combiner Wars came out, I have loved the direction and quality of the new toys. They feel like upgrades to the old G1 version. Yes there are a lot of repaints and retools but that is needed to turn a profit and I'm not complaining about the variety.

This is a transformers renaissance we are going through. Change my mind?

Note: applying this to Transformers only could probably see this on another section of the forums.

You're wrong.
there, changed it. :cool:

No really, I completely agree with you except for when you think the renaissance started. I feel like it started with the Classics/Classics 2.0 line when HasTak started to produce original moulds of classic characters, at the time it was all G1, but since then we've had comics only characters, and representations (generally not many but still some) of almost every stage of transformers history in the main 'generations' toy line.
there have been some dips here and there, the combiner squads that had drones for limbs, the early classics that were just repaints from earlier lines, the heavily budgeted lines from the GFC, there were still many good toys but many didn't have the same feel that we have come to expect from transformers, either previously or since. We're in a golden age of transformers and it's been going for at least 15 years if you ask me.


Actually I tell a lie. Back in the 90's I bought 1 BW figure (Depthcharge), 2 BM figures (Tankorr and Jetstorm) and 0 MW figures, since they were all repaints of pervious figures with almost random G1 names attached. So I guess Machine Wars was the lowest part of my collecting.

Of course since then an adult collector I've bought figures like 10th Anniversary Waspinator, Machine Wars Soundwave etc. But after G2 ended I really didn't start collecting again until RID(01) when I saw all these cool looking vehicle toys in the stores. It really did revitalize my interest.

for me, I lost interest towards the end of G2, mostly because in my local remote township they were really hard to get hold of, and I couldn't get past the biological alt modes either.
The big issue I had was characters of the same names having completely different alt modes and bot modes. (I've since gotten over that stigma, but I still feel like it's a waste of originality and creativity to have a new transformers story/show/character that has completely new character designs but re-uses names that are well established with a different charcter/alt mode)

What got me back in to collecting seriously (I did pick up a couple toys, literally 2 I think, from the Unicron Trilogy) was the Alternators Binaltech line. I love them.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I couldn't get past the biological alt modes either.

The big issue I had was characters of the same names having completely different alt modes and bot modes. (I've since gotten over that stigma, but I still feel like it's a waste of originality and creativity to have a new transformers story/show/character that has completely new character designs but re-uses names that are well established with a different charcter/alt mode).

Yeah the names thing really used to bug me too. I understand now that a lot of it was Hasbro reusing the names in order to maintain their trademarks of them so it irritates me less, but back then it really annoyed me. Silverbolt was a flying wolf thing instead of a jet, Inferno was an ant instead of a fire truck etc etc. And when I saw Soundwave was now a brown crocodile that transformed into a bat and didn't even have a robot mode - that really irked me.

I nearly bought the BW Rampage toy back then but didn't because of the name, although I do have the Timelines version now which is pretty cool.

[GoktimusPrime]

In this case I don’t reckon Beast Wars was THE big game changer - but it’s fine if you do. Just don’t speak for the rest of us. Personally BW marked the lowest point in my toy collecting over the past 35 years.
Fact: Beast Wars boosted Transformers sales massively. By 1997 Beast Wars had become the third best selling action figure line after Toy Story and Star Wars.
This isn't my opinion. This is based on sales figures.

Compare TF shopping during the G2 years vs the BW years.
Compare the online fandom during the G2 years vs the BW years.

And bear in mind that the success of Car Robot and successive Transformers lines is thanks to Beast Wars. Car Robot was basically Beast Wars engineering with licensed vehicles. This in turn inspired Binaltech and Masterpiece. I still find design elements in MP and CHUG toys today that originated in BW. And this is why I generally don't get that excited about CHUGs or MPs based on BW toys vs those based on G1. If I look at say BW vs CHUG Waspinator (easy like for like comparison cos they're both Deluxes) I can see that neither toy is really better worse than the other. But when I compare say G1 vs CW Powerglide (and a G1 Mini-Bot would be roughly the price of a Legends Class in today's prices)... there's no comparison; CW wins hands down. I have yet to see any BW based CHUG or MP toy that I thought was, relative to price point, outright superior to the original BW toy. And this isn't because the MPs or CHUGs are lacking but just because BW was so good; a lot of the improvements on the more recent toys are superficial embellishments (e.g. screen accuracy) rather than something more substantive.

I've got TR Seaspray sitting on my desk atm. Looking at this toy I can see things like:
* Superior detailed sculpting
* Superior durability
* Painted decos instead of stickers
* At least 9 points of articulation in the robot mode
* Weapon is incorporated in the alt mode
Guess what? This all came from Beast Wars! This is why Beast Wars was the game changer. The main innovation that Car Robot gave us was combining BW engineering with licensed vehicles. Otherwise there wasn't a whole lot of new innovations from that line. And it wasn't even consistently applied across the line whereas BW was. With Car Robot we had: Fire Convoy, God Magnus, Gigatron, the Car Robot Bros, Team Bullet Train and the Buildmasters and that was it. Everything else in that line were repaints of existing G1, G2 and BW moulds (Predacons, Combaticons, Spychangers, Brave Max). And while Gigatron was a new mould he was a Predacon made in the BW aesthetic. Don't get me wrong, I really do love Car Robot a lot... but I don't think it was the big game changer that BW was.

I'm NOT saying that you have to love Beast Wars, but simply acknowledge the lasting impact that it's had on the Transformers brand that is still felt today.
I'm not talking about any individual's personal experience (that's anecdotal) but the overall impact that these lines have had on the entire brand and fandom as a whole.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Haha! Oh mate are you stretching worse than Plastic Man in a taffy factory now!



Compare the online fandom during the G2 years vs the BW years.


You mean the G2 years where most of us didn’t even know what the internet was, let alone have access to it?



And bear in mind that the success of Car Robot and successive Transformers lines is thanks to Beast Wars. Car Robot was basically Beast Wars engineering with licensed vehicles. This in turn inspired Binaltech and Masterpiece


Lots of Car Robots were directly recolored from G2 – by that rationale G2 had more of an engineering impact than Beast Wars
And if we are speaking of engineering, then can you provide evidence that a lot of the engineering used for Beast Wars toys was invented and designed specifically for Beast Wars? If so I happily concede the point. If not then the success of those lines go to the engineers that first came up with the engineering concepts and/or whatever toylines and products they were used for before they were adapted for Beast Wars merchandise.



I've got TR Seaspray sitting on my desk atm. Looking at this toy I can see things like:
* Superior detailed sculpting
* Superior durability
* Painted decos instead of stickers
* At least 9 points of articulation in the robot mode
* Weapon is incorporated in the alt mode
Guess what? This all came from Beast Wars!

Nope.

*Weapons incorporated in the alt-mode – G1 Brawl, Sixshot etc could have their weapons in alt-mode attached. The Omnibots had theirs built in to their altmodes. So did the Aquaspeeders. Tons already did it before Beast Wars.
*Articulation – Beast Wars gave us better articulation I will grant you, but they didn’t invent it of revolutionize it. They simply improved it. Even 1984 Prime could move his shoulders, elbows, revolve his wrists etc.
*Superior Durability – I’ve got hundreds of G1 TF’s who haven’t got a mark on them and have been through years of play. The legs constantly come off my 10th Anniversary Waspinator and I have to clip them back on.
*Paint Deco’s instead of stickers. Yeah mostly, but that didn’t mean G1 & G2 didn’t have paint decos, they just used both them and stickers. Otherwise there would be a lot of G1 toys without solid coloured windshields and less obvious details.
*Superior Detailed Sculpting – yep, will give ya that. But like a lot of this stuff, its just the engineering of toys evolving over the years. Most toylines get better and better as they go along. The Beast Wars portion of the Transformers toyline is no different. It's sculpting was generally better than G1, there have been toylines since better than it. It’s how it works. Are you genuinely arguing that without Beast Wars TR Seaspray would have been sculpted no better than his predecessor three decades previous from 1985? C'mon - stretching.

Sorry, but if you think Beast Wars invented all this stuff from scratch then you are looking through incredibly rose-coloured glasses.

I’m perfectly happy for you to be in love with Beast Wars – I’m glad you take such enjoyment from it to this day. But this opinion that Transformers owes the majority of its success to that iteration of its franchise just doesn’t hold up. Beast Wars did a lot for Transformers in the 90’s, but then the live-action movies did a lot to put the brand back in the public eye. There are tons of fans out there of it (that I personally disagree with) that argue as vehemently as you do for Best Wars that without the live-action movies the franchise would either be a shadow of what it is today, or non-existent at all. You can't say 'if A hadn't of happened, then B would have definitely happened'. Transformers may have succeeded even better without Beast Wars and the Movieverse - we don't know, maybe the franchise would indeed have been worse. We don't know that either.

So yeah, good on Beast Wars for contributing a lot to the franchise - but not as much as you seem to believe.

[UltraMarginal]

I have to say, every time I hear someone say that Transformers was 'Saved' by Beast Wars, pretty much most of what Trevor has said goes through my head.
Even the sculpting on early G1 Toys was outstanding, how else could they have such accurate representations of all those G1 era cars.

I'm not saying Beast Wars didn't do a lot of good for the Transformers Brand, but it didn't 'save' it. In my mind probably the biggest thing Beast Wars taught Hasbro was that if you recreated/retold/reinterpreted/restarted the show to some degree every few years it would be more likely to interest a new wave of children.

Beast Wars was an important chapter in the 35 year history of transformers but it's hardly any more important than any other chapter/era.

[GoktimusPrime]

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets. BW took these concepts, aggregators standardised and improved on them. BW set a new standard which successive lines have followed. The bar existed but BW raised it and that level has become the new basic metric for TF designs.

Remember...
What being a TF collector was like during G2. It was isolating and toys were either really hard to find because retail buyers weren't ordering stock or overflowing with shelf warmers. I still found early G2 toys on shelves as late as 1999! That's like finding TFP Beast Hunter toys in stores today (6 year gap). When you did a web search on "Transformers" all you'd find was results about electronics.

Remember.....
What it was like when BW first came out but the cartoon hadn't yet. The toys were *the* appeal of the line. Back then the official canon was that the BW TFs were reformatted G1s and that's how we played it with our toys. Remember how blown away many of us were when we first handled these toys. It was also the first time that we had beast modes that were proper robots in disguise.

Remember.....
Interacting with the fandom including "AusTrans." About half of our conversations were about BW because they were the new game in town. Toy reviews, toy news etc. - dominated by BW. Remember attending fan meets in the latter half of the 90s. Watching BW marathons (cos I had eps on NTSC VHS from the states allowing us to watch a season ahead of what was airing here), playing with BW toys etc. It was at one such fan meet that we discussed things like how Scavenger was obviously TM Inferno etc.

Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it. Before BW I couldn't even find other fans to interact with no matter how much I tried. After BW it was like the floodgates opened and suddenly finding other fans became much easier.

And yes, Car Robot was undeniably hugely successful. I remember RID toys selling like hotcakes and flying off shelves long before the cartoon ever aired.

I'm not saying that BW was the only thing to boost TFs (Bayformers was a big boost) but BW boosted it when TFs was at its lowest point. It breathed new life into what was an effectively dead franchise. Think back to 1995. TFs was screwed. This wasn't the case after BW; we've never sank as low as the mid 90s

[shockNwave]

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets. BW took these concepts, aggregators standardised and improved on them. BW set a new standard which successive lines have followed. The bar existed but BW raised it and that level has become the new basic metric for TF designs.

Remember...
What being a TF collector was like during G2. It was isolating and toys were either really hard to find because retail buyers weren't ordering stock or overflowing with shelf warmers. I still found early G2 toys on shelves as late as 1999! That's like finding TFP Beast Hunter toys in stores today (6 year gap). When you did a web search on "Transformers" all you'd find was results about electronics.

Remember.....
What it was like when BW first came out but the cartoon hadn't yet. The toys were *the* appeal of the line. Back then the official canon was that the BW TFs were reformatted G1s and that's how we played it with our toys. Remember how blown away many of us were when we first handled these toys. It was also the first time that we had beast modes that were proper robots in disguise.

Remember.....
Interacting with the fandom including "AusTrans." About half of our conversations were about BW because they were the new game in town. Toy reviews, toy news etc. - dominated by BW. Remember attending fan meets in the latter half of the 90s. Watching BW marathons (cos I had eps on NTSC VHS from the states allowing us to watch a season ahead of what was airing here), playing with BW toys etc. It was at one such fan meet that we discussed things like how Scavenger was obviously TM Inferno etc.

Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it. Before BW I couldn't even find other fans to interact with no matter how much I tried. After BW it was like the floodgates opened and suddenly finding other fans became much easier.

And yes, Car Robot was undeniably hugely successful. I remember RID toys selling like hotcakes and flying off shelves long before the cartoon ever aired.

I'm not saying that BW was the only thing to boost TFs (Bayformers was a big boost) but BW boosted it when TFs was at its lowest point. It breathed new life into what was an effectively dead franchise. Think back to 1995. TFs was screwed. This wasn't the case after BW; we've never sank as low as the mid 90s

I love it when the engineering and alt. modes of BW are mentioned (huge strengths of the series). A well fought riposte, Gok and keep flying the flag for the BW series. The savior series.

[BigTransformerTrev]

Soooo… you are changing your whole argument from:



And bear in mind that the success of Car Robot and successive Transformers lines is thanks to Beast Wars. Car Robot was basically Beast Wars engineering with licensed vehicles. This in turn inspired Binaltech and Masterpiece. I still find design elements in MP and CHUG toys today that originated in BW.

I've got TR Seaspray sitting on my desk atm. Looking at this toy I can see things like:
* Superior detailed sculpting
* Superior durability
* Painted decos instead of stickers
* At least 9 points of articulation in the robot mode
* Weapon is incorporated in the alt mode
Guess what? This all came from Beast Wars!

To:

Allow me to clarify. I'm not saying that the advent of Manny features necessarily came from BW. After all toys like Wreck Gar have us the first ball and socket joint and the original Soundwave had weapon incorporation in his alt mode. And G2 gave us the earliest 9 point articulated figures with toys like Laser Rods and Cyber Jets etc. But these things existed in isolated pockets.
And I’m sure you will come up with some convoluted reason that what you said in your first post, which did not stand up to scrutiny, actually had the inner meaning of what you said in your second post. That even though you said it came from Beast Wars, you really meant it came from G1 and Beast Wars standardized it.


And we have gone from:


I'm NOT saying that you have to love Beast Wars, but simply acknowledge the lasting impact that it's had on the Transformers brand that is still felt today.
I'm not talking about any individual's personal experience (that's anecdotal) but the overall impact that these lines have had on the entire brand and fandom as a whole.
To:


Maybe you guys experienced the brand and fandom differently in the 90s but that's how I remember it.

Sigh, I’ve seen this pattern before. I’m not playing the ‘what I meant was’ game with you yet again. I’m out.



A well fought riposte, Gok and keep flying the flag for the BW series. The savior series.
No its not, it completely ignored or sidestepped every counterargument and then contradicted what he said earlier. :rolleyes:

Anyway, my new shed got built today so as I said, I'm out. Hope others enjoy the discussion.

[Autocon]

We could create a thread on this topic.

I think todays toy is more a money grab and less thought into how the toy plays. Could be due to todays kids playing more games on computer than before. At least lego is still good and allows for creative play even if its over priced.

[GoktimusPrime]

Trev is quoting me out of context (despite my attempt to clarify my meaning).

The Japanese word for "Transformers" is Toransufoomaa (トランスフォーマー). Now would we say that this word is of English origin? If your answer is "yes," then that's what I meant when I said that many modern features of TFs today originated from BW. Now of course there were examples from long before then, and indeed the word "Transformers" actually comes from Classical Latin (trānsfōrmō), which gave rise to the Ecclesiastic Latin word trānsfōrmātiō, and then came the French word "transformer" (/tʁɑ̃s.fɔʁ.mɛʁ/), which in turn became the English word "transformer" (/tɹ?nsˈfɔːmə/), which eventually became the Japanese name "toransufoomaa." But as the direct link from "Transformer" to "toransufoomaa" came from English to Japanese it's often perceived or classified as an English loan words despite its complete lack of Anglo origin (in pure English we would say "Shapeshifters").

So when I say that many features of current TFs comes from BW I mean that there's a direct link from BW to post-BW toys. But I'm not denying that these features existed before BW either, just as saying that "Transformers is an English loanword" doesn't deny its Roman origins either. This is the way that many things evolve IRL; it's often a gradual process rather than just a single thing. Alexander Graham Bell is credit as the inventor of the telephone but there were telephonic devices already in existence before Bell's telephone, but it was Bell who created what is widely considered the first practical telephone that standardised the design of what we now consider to be telephones. Same with cars. Which single person could you identify as the inventor of the automobile? I would personally go with Gottlieb Daimler but there were certainly numerous other forms of automobiles before Daimler's. Even biological evolution works in the same way. But there are certain moments that we can pinpoint as turning points or major kilometrestones in evolution (including the evolution of TFs) and I would say that BW was one of those key periods.

Okay, I've taken a sample of toys from Early G1 in the mid 1980s.
https://i.ibb.co/ZSCFMxd/toycomparison-1-G1.jpg
Soundwave is a remarkably poseable toy for 1st year TF, as is Optimus Prime. And both Soundwave and OP incorporate their weapons into their alt modes, with Soundwave's guns becoming AA batteries and Optimus Prime's rifle having a storage port in his trailer. Now technically Optimus Prime doesn't have any explicit storage for his fists. My original G1 Prime was stolen but I still have his fists! (because they were stored separately during the burglary) :p Shockwave actually has a lot of nice non-incidental articulation, much of it in the arms. And as mentioned before, Wreck-Gar was the first to sport

Now let's look at the early to mid 1990s with G2.
https://i.ibb.co/0Z2Sj8q/toycomparison-2-G2.jpg
1992 introduced light piping, such a simple yet ingenious gimmick that's even made its way into at least one MP (Laserwave). As a former G1 toy, Zap inherits this gimmick but then other G2 toys (i.e. repainted Early G1 figures) didn't have this, so it wasn't a standardised feature. The incorporation of the gun as the engine block is neat, and while many G1.5 toys did this the purely G2 toys didn't, so again, not standard. At best we might say "semi-standard." 1994 was the year where Transformers started blowing my socks off and started becoming action figures. Combat Hero Megatron is by far my favourite toy from that year. Smaller and cheaper yet far superior to the 1993 G2 Megatron toy. The Laser Rods as well as Darkwing and Smokescreen were also quite impressive action figures, but then we also had Rotor Force and more G1 repaints, so again, semi-standardisation at best. Then 1995 rolled along and gave us incredible toys like Laser Optimus Prime which, IMO, reigned as the best Optimus Prime toy ever made until 2007. Just when I thought Combat Heroes were the best, HasTak came and blew my socks off again with this awesome figure. But then we had other weird toys like the horrific Power Masters. Autorollers and Go-Bots were also limited in articulation, although the Cyber Jets revisited and expanded on the idea of ball and socket joints. G2 really had some clever innovations but they didn't come to dominate the line and also importantly, it failed to generate toy sales. This is why TF shopping at this time was so frustrating... stores often had insufficient stock or an overabundance.

Now we come to the latter part of the 1990s with Beast Wars
https://i.ibb.co/GdqZy9j/toycomparison-3-BW.jpg
They picked up that G2 ball and ran with it. Every toy had no fewer than 9 points of articulation. Toys were far more durable; many of these toys could take a beating and a lot of parts were designed to be reattached if they came off. Weapon incorporation became standardised. The level of sculpting went up a notch; from things like fur grain and even the interior of certain parts. Look at Inferno's abdomen panels. You can see mechanical details sculpted there but it's covered by a translucent metallic red carapace. That's insane! 1999's Dead End also packed a lot of punch for such a cheap little Basic Class figure (admittedly we saw airbrushing before in 1998's Optimal Optimus). BW also gave us the first animal moded robots in disguise. Inferno looks like a fire ant. None of the G1 Insecticons look like realistic insects, not even the Deluxe Insecticons.

Now let's look at some Transformers from the 21st Century...
https://i.ibb.co/TLKmdsp/toycomparison-5-21st-Cent.jpg
We can see that many of the features that became standardised in Beast Wars has remained standardised in toys today. Yeah okay, Mach Alert has some issues with the door hinges and the weapon incorporation isn't the best (unless you like police cars with jets on their strobe lights :p), but many of the other Car Robot toys incorporate them better. Speedbreaker would've probably been a better example, but you get the idea. I also love how Mach Alert's feet become car seats and we can see some interior detailing on the door panels etc. I've said "semi standard" for Mach Alert because, as mentioned before, much of the Car Robot line was fleshed out with older G1 and G2 moulds because it was cheap to do so (Takara's dwindling spending on TFs in the early 2000s is a whole 'nuther discussion). Cybertron Hot Shot is standard fair for a mid 2000s TF and Refraktor is fairly typical of a TF design today. We can see that many of the features that became standardised by BW remain standardised in Transformers today.

Honourable Mention: Transformers Armada
Because Armada gave us another lasting legacy. The standardisation of the 5mm weapon post. It's not a new thing, toys like 1984's Optimus Prime, Soundwave, the Cassettes and the Jets all have 5mm post weapons too, but Armada made it standard. Across all of the Unicron Trilogy line I can only think of 2 non-Mini-Con Transformers who don't have 5mm fist holes; Energon Grimlock and Swoop (widely considered the low point of the UT). Now Transformers did move away from this for a while but I think it was around 2011 that they went back to it with things like Mech Tech and now almost every Transformer has 5mm weapon posts and fist holes. The fact that CHUG Targetmasters can hold G1 Nebulans and vice versa, or that any CHUG Optimus Prime can hold G1 Optimus Prime's guns shows how far back this gimmick goes, but it hasn't been until around 2011 that it became a standard feature.

Look, I'm not saying that BW was the only major turning point in TF history, but as I said before, it was the Renaissance because it came about when Transformers was dying. The toys just were not selling. BW changed all this, just as the Renaissance did to modern society (giving rise to things like the scientific method etc.). Now it's not to say that science didn't exist before the Renaissance, but science as we know it today came from the Renaissance. And contemporary science has changed a lot since Renaissance science (miasma, anyone? :p), but the Renaissance was the big game changer as knowledge from Greeks that had been lost to the West was reacquired from the Muslim Golden Age.

Yes, there have been many other post-BW innovations (e.g. standardisation of the 5mm post), but these came about at a time when the Transformers brand was healthy. Sure, Bayformers came along and massively boosted Transformers. We know that Transformers toy sales doubled after the 2007 movie line came out. That's no small feat! But Transformers was not a dead or dying franchise in 2007. It wasn't an endangered brand in 2011. I don't mean to diminish these other achievements per se, but the reason why I consider BW to be "the big one" is because Transformers would most likely have died off if not for BW. As you will recall from the mid-90s, despite some really cool toys coming out, people just weren't buying them! Even I only collected about 60 TFs from 1993-95 (that's only about 20 toys per year). G2 was definitely my lowest point in collecting and I'd wager for many others too. And I'd say for many stores, their lowest point in TF sales. That's what really matters, sales. But we know that in just a year after BW came out Transformers became the third best selling action figure line. They clawed their way up to #3 a year after the rebranding after the brand nearly died on its butt. Seriously... we know that vehicular Transformers just weren't selling in the 90s (thanks, Jurassic Park). Hasbro even re-tested the market during the early stages of BW with Machine Wars and we all remember what a massive shelfwarmer that line was! Made people like me who imported* them from the US in 1997 (because at the time they were US KB exclusives) feel really silly when MW toys came out everywhere here in 1999 and just did not sell. Even those exclusive "versus sets" that we had didn't seem to help move the toys much.

Anyway, I think I've said my piece so I'm also ducking out of this convo now.

-------------------------------
*double imported! As I was living in Japan I had my MW toys shipped from the USA to Japan, then when I moved back to Australia, yep, paid for shipping again. Enjoyed bragging rights at fan meets in 1998 but then lost all said rights by 1999. D'oh! :p Oh yeah, fan meets became a thing after BW. Never met up with fans during G2, and again, I tried. I did attend real life meets from online communities. Remember the early 90s when 99% of netizens were goths? :p I would often stick out like a sore thumb as the one non-goth in attendance... there would be passer-bys asking if we were attending a funeral. <grins>

[BigTransformerTrev]

Trev is quoting me out of context (despite my attempt to clarify my meaning).


Errr, I really don't believe I did, I'd like to think I was being quite accurate really.

As for the rest - waaaay TL: DR. I'm not trying to be dismissive but I genuinely don't have time to read it. The only reason I’m even commenting now is you mentioned me

The amount of effort and time you will go to rather than simply concede a point is astounding - I’ll grant ya that. You obviously feel very strongly about the issue. If it’s any consolation, I genuinely didn’t intend for us to get to this point with the discussion - best we both just walk away. I'm sure neither you nor I have any desire for this to 'heat up' further.

And Beast Wars is cool and I’m still glad you still enjoy it to this day :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Errr, I really don't believe I did, I'd like to think I was being quite accurate really.

As for the rest - waaaay TL: DR. I'm not trying to be dismissive but I genuinely don't have time to read it. The only reason I’m even commenting now is you mentioned me
Yes, you did. If you had read my last post which further clarified what I meant you would know this. If you would like to continue this conversation then I would recommend that you read my last post comprehensively, otherwise please do step away (and I will do likewise)

[BigTransformerTrev]

Well so much for trying to being nice and extend an olive branch :rolleyes:

[Krayt]

Well so much for trying to being nice and extend an olive branch :rolleyes:

It’s because it wasn’t recognised... try a Olea europaea branch next time...

[Raider]

I think there is a little too much enthusiasm... is that a fair word... being put into the posts on this thread. Let's keep things concise and friendly. No need to make comments like "step away".

Coming back to the subject matter...


You're wrong.
there, changed it. :cool:

UM, no you are wrong! :p


No really, I completely agree with you except for when you think the renaissance started. I feel like it started with the Classics/Classics 2.0 line when HasTak started to produce original moulds of classic characters, at the time it was all G1, but since then we've had comics only characters, and representations (generally not many but still some) of almost every stage of transformers history in the main 'generations' toy line.
... We're in a golden age of transformers and it's been going for at least 15 years if you ask me.

I just feel the stuff since Combiner Wars is really play friendly. Mind you, I didn't really collect the CHUG stuff that was before it so can't compare. I just love me some combine!


What got me back in to collecting seriously (I did pick up a couple toys, literally 2 I think, from the Unicron Trilogy) was the Alternators Binaltech line. I love them.

Actually I was the same. When the Binaltech cars came out and I also saw the Hasbro MP OP in a Target, I got the bug again. Almost finished my Binaltech collection too!

Protocols A, B & D in effect.

[UltraMarginal]

I just feel the stuff since Combiner Wars is really play friendly. Mind you, I didn't really collect the CHUG stuff that was before it so can't compare. I just love me some combine!



I'll have to share my early figures with you at some point, the Hound, Mirage, Cyclonus amongst others are very much fun.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I'll have to share my early figures with you at some point, the Hound, Mirage, Cyclonus amongst others are very much fun.

Is that the Cyclonus that came with Nightstick near a decade ago? Awesome figure - for my money about the best Cyclonus toy we’ve had. I’ve got 2 versions of it and love them both.

I loved that Hound came with a Ravage and that Mirage had a cool alt-mode -was pretty decently redone into Drag Strip too.

[shockNwave]

Is that the Cyclonus that came with Nightstick near a decade ago? Awesome figure - for my money about the best Cyclonus toy we’ve had. I’ve got 2 versions of it and love them both.

I loved that Hound came with a Ravage and that Mirage had a cool alt-mode -was pretty decently redone into Drag Strip too.

It was the first Bayverse movie in conjunction with these above mentioned TFs (except Mirage) that turned me into a collector.

[UltraMarginal]

Is that the Cyclonus that came with Nightstick near a decade ago? Awesome figure - for my money about the best Cyclonus toy we’ve had. I’ve got 2 versions of it and love them both.

I loved that Hound came with a Ravage and that Mirage had a cool alt-mode -was pretty decently redone into Drag Strip too.

Yep, that one. and I agree, an excellent mould, the legs don't quite make a shape in vehicle mode but still great. I have several different recolours, One is Cyclonus, the others are his Armada...

A lot of those earlier new figures still hold up really well. the bumblebee has been re-used again and again

[DELTAprime]

Am I the only one that thinks the new Micromasters are a downgrade over the originals?

Normally I prefer the new toy over the G1 toy, but in this case, I feel like they are cheaply made and the use of ball joints instead of pins annoys me because the limbs pop off so easily. It's not like they are the first small Transformers in recent years, but they are the only ones I have trouble with joints popping off.

[Sinnertwin]

Am I the only one that thinks the new Micromasters are a downgrade over the originals?

Normally I prefer the new toy over the G1 toy, but in this case, I feel like they are cheaply made and the use of ball joints instead of pins annoys me because the limbs pop off so easily. It's not like they are the first small Transformers in recent years, but they are the only ones I have trouble with joints popping off.

Nah, word around the traps is that they're quite the let down from a manufacturing point of view.