Masterpieces - are we spoiled?

[dirge]

Quoting myself in the MP Hound review thread...


I just got my Hound & promptly opened and transformed him. I'm not as impressed as I'd want to be for the price.

snip

I'm not dissatisfied; Hound will look GREAT alongside the other Autobot cars. But the earlier guys like Bluestreak & Sideswipe are far more elegant and sturdy for mine; and even NOW on eBay are cheaper than Hound. While the MPs aren't really designed with play in mind, this is far less playable than the earlier cars.

Admittedly, this is in a review thread... so it's where we should be weighing up positives and negatives. But the negatives are, IMO, quite nitpicky.

Fans who've been in this game for a long time (Gok, Griffin, Demonac, Sofaman, amongst others) will recall the early 2000s. Hasbro was releasing stuff like Beast Machines & just as it is now, Australia was skipping assortments. And deluxes, even back then, were $30 (that's 20 years ago!). Around that time, discussion would sometimes turn to "what is your ultimate wish from the Transformers toy line?" or something similar. And the overwhelming response was G1 characters with modern toy technology.

Fast forward to 2020. A whopping "American" 34 characters have now been released as Masterpieces... including licensed vehicle modes, a bunch of cassettes, all the seekers & multiple versions of popular characters.

Sure, MP Hound isn't perfect by Masterpiece standards. But I mean... I'd happily spend $200 on Hound all over again rather than spending $100 (in year 2000 money) on Supreme Cheetor - a toy which couldn't even STAND upright. If you'd had offered me Masterpiece Hound for $300 instead of the overpriced & frankly ungainly (with some exceptions) Beast Machines toys back in 2000, I'd have been awestruck that a relatively minor character had been produced to such a standard.

While I'll continue to critique MPs as I get them, I will still appreciate the opportunity to own the characters from my childhood with such amazing engineering. It sure beats chasing down uncommon toys like Battle Unicorn...

Do you feel that we've been spoiled by years of Masterpiece toys? Should we be unsatisfied with some of the Masterpieces that have released? Your thoughts?

[The_Damned]

i would like mp hound but cant seem to want to spend that much money on such a little figure.. :(

[1AZRAEL1]

When I first bought MP1, I was overwhelmed at the engineering marvel and a big sized figure of Optimus. Then MP10 came along, and while smaller, looked even better. Now the latest has come and is truly a piece of engineering magic, but with a hefty price tag I can't justify. And old Megatron to the new one, due to the engineering, has issues of paint damage. I won't even transform mine which is a shame. And the old Autobot cars, engineering wise, feel a bit dated compared to the newer ones, but again the price tag is a hard pill to swallow. I just don't have as much of a disposable income as I used to is my main issue.

As technology gets better, so does the engineering of these figures and with it the price tag.

[drifand]

My problem is now the QC has dropped. If MP Hound had no breakage reports, I am actually just on the okay to support but is not.
I had friends who are aware of issues, transformed carefully and the door hinge broke.

Things I do like about new MPs are is properly painted, no diecast is an accepted form > I moved on as it is what it is.

The Engineering is questionable, while it can be a Wow factor it also caused a lot of breakage on the products. MP44 knee joint for example, I have seen nerd post justifying all of Takara's why it was like this and started to tell people off that we as normal customers have no clue as such. Is this really a dick statement to the rest honestly? I believe it was totally unnecessary to over complicate a joint. Let alone a $500 figure should not have such issues. I am not one that buy the "You do not know how to bend the knee, hence it broke" statement. Come on, in all honesty, something simple should not be looking at how you need to bend the knee.

For Hound, the piece looks great, those who had no issues are definitely happy. But for the rest who broke their toy receiving out of the box? Broke within 3 days of playing?
Look back to the rest of your MPs and let me know if there were such issues back then.

Price? Hound looks no more than a Sunstreaker MP price. The New Bee bee is worse considering the size.

Extra accessories? I dont use them at all < and here is what adding the cost.

My concerns about MP line - Takara is moving way too slow for the market, overthinking the product making a lot of unnecessary accessories, poor choice of characters when reveal being made.

There are many G1 that do not require licensing and yet Takara choose not to do. Opportunities wasted as the 3p line fill the gaps as they are listening to feedback.
Years ago, I would not even touch a 3p company, now I am finding I am more excited for them then what Takara is offering due to
1. Quality
2. Price point
3. Release date

The one new MP by Takara a year is not going to cut it, you will die before you complete your collection.

I am not a Takara fanboy or 3p fanboy, rather just someone who loves g1 TFs and people decided to make a masterpiece of the old.
If people actually dig into Takara toys they be shock to see how high quality they were back in the days.
I honestly feel they should be stripped of the Long life award for how Hound is. But is only my opinion.
It is rather sad I am seeing fans defending the quality.

[Tha_Phantom]

It is rather sad I am seeing fans defending the quality.

I used to be one of them, but I'm done. I transformed my Hound numerous times safely, but then he broke over the weekend (rear panel of Jeep mode) and I wasn't even being rough with it. I'm done with MPs until these QC issues with every release stop. I'm aware that MPs have ALWAYS had QC issues, as will any toyline, but not to the magnitude we are seeing now.

In regards to the design of MPs I'd say we are absolutely spoiled, some of the things I see people criticise in that regard are just petty. However, QC is definitely a valid criticism, especially for what we are paying now.

[DELTAprime]

I recently got an MP Blackarachnia. She's not a bad figure, but given the price, I felt let down. At least there's no QC issues on her like with Optimus 3.0.

[dirge]

I feel some replies have missed the point of my post. It’s not about Hound (he happens to be the most recent & so is topical).

My point is that with the last few years of Masterpieces, it’s a far cry from the “dark” days when there was one line, no G1 character toys & no realistic vehicle modes. Etc.

Given that we’ve had several years of Masterpieces, are we right to be unsatisfied? Or should be be happy that HasTak are giving us classic characters in such a format? For me, despite the flaws we nitpick and and the price tags, I’m happy & consider myself fortunate. In 2000, I’d have given my left arm for a single G1 Masterpiece toy. Let alone 30+. Even if some do have flaws.

[Tha_Phantom]

Apologies Dirge. I did get around to answering you in my second paragraph and I stand by what I said. Yes we're spoiled in terms of design and the number of characters we have. We are right to be unsatisfied in other aspects, though.

[Sinnertwin]

I'm in the unsatisfied camp. My enthusiasm for the line is actually waning.

Barring left field repaints ( Anime + / Diaclone ) and off chops exclusives (Atmos Lebron Screeching Duck MP10) TT have been moving at a glacial pace as far as core releases go over the last 17 years. You want to finish your '84 & '85 cast? Here, have another Optimus. Is your Grimlock feeling lonely? I've got a new Bumblebee that'll fix that etc etc

[DaptoDog]

G1 centric collectors like me were really spoiled through 2015-2016, for me that was the peak of the line. Almost every month there was breaking news of a new Masterpiece release. The sheer number was amazing. I was able to enjoy the best version of characters that I never had as a child. Also, while there were the odd QC issues (chrome etc), they did not put me off. Finally the prices were somewhat affordable for many collectors.

Fast forward to today and the line does not give me as much joy. Part of that is redoing characters that already had fine representations (Prime, Bumblebee etc) rather than tackling new characters. Part of that is the reduced number of G1 releases. Then you have more significant QC issues. And finally the prices have ramped up substantially, partly driven by the increased number of accessories that I don't have any interest for.

With official MPs slowing down I've begun to (dangerously) dabble in 3rd party. These fit well enough with official MPs and help fill out the shelves of both factions. Those I have purchased have been very well made overall.

So yes to some extent I do feel a little spoiled but don't think I've been overly critical of recent figures. Hound looks great (anxious to receive it) and I was really happy with Prime 3.0.

Regardless, I can see myself continuing to collect MPs for many years to come.

[GoktimusPrime]

We are definitely spoiled in terms of sheer numbers. Here are the number of MPs released by both Takara and Hasbro since the beginning.

2003/4 = 3
2005 = 1
2006 = 3
2007 = 3
2008 = 1
2009 = 5
2010 = 6
2011 = 5
2012 = 7
2013 = 11
2014 = 14
2015 = 14
2016 = 13
2017 = 15
2018 = 15
2019 = 18

So looking at 2003/4 to 2019 that's 16 years worth of MPs. If we look at the first half of this period, we can see that the average number of MPs released per year was 3.38. The average number of MPs released in the second half is 13.38! :eek: So we can see that the average number of MPs released per year is nearly quadruple (x3.95) the average annual release from the first half. :eek:

That's a lot. So yeah, the early years of MPs may seem to have fewer QC issues but that's because there were fewer MPs being produced. And when I say that 2003/4 had 3 MPs, I mean that we had:
* MP1 Convoy (Takara)
* 20th Anniversary Optimus Prime (Hasbro)
* Lucky Draw MP1 Convoy (Takara)
Most collectors would've only gotten just one of these, so in reality most of us were probably collecting maybe 1 or 2 MPs per year during the early years. One reason why the number of MP QC reports may have risen may simply be due to there being more MPs existing these days. Even if you're an MP completist, if you're only collecting 3 MPs a year in the beginning, there's going to be fewer chances of encountering a dud MP. When you're collecting 13 MPs a year, then suddenly the odds of encountering a faulty toy has greatly increased. If you collected 18 MPs released in 2019 then that's 3.6 times more than the measly 5 MPs that you collected 10 years prior. The chances of you encountering a faulty MP is higher.

What I'm curious to know is how many dud MPs people have encountered VS the number of MPs they collected in each of those years. For me it would look like this:
[MP Year] = [No. w/ QC probs] / [No. of MPs acquired]
2003/4 = 1/1 <---this means 1 out of 1 MPs that I collected had a QC issue. My MP1 came missing a panel.
2005 = 0/0 <---I never got MP2 Ultra Magnus and thus never had one with a QC issue.
2006 = 0/1 <---the only MP I got this year was MP3 and I had no QC issues with it.
2007 = 1/3 <---I got all 3 MPs released in this year and one of the tiny panel tabs on my MP5 broke during first transformation.
2008 = 0/1
2009 = 1/1
2010 = 1/1
2011 = 0/2
2012 = 0/4
2013 = 1/7 <---my MP15 Rumble came w/ 2 of the same side piledriver arm.
2014 = 0/4
2015 = 0/7
2016 = 0/9
2017 = 0/5 (unless you count some minor paint chipping on MP36)
2018 = 0/2
2019 = 0/2
↑So that's how it works. :) Feel free to copy, paste and edit this for your own MP collection. But yeah, the only QC issues I've really had was with MP1 (missing panel), MP15 (missing 1 piledriver arm) and MP5 (snapped panel tab).

Also note that I've counted the MPs the same way that tfwiki has, which is counting releases, not individual figures per se. So I've counted MP15 Rumble & Jaguar as one release, and the Hasbro release of MP Soundwave (with a whole bunch of cassettes) also counts as one release. It's counting releases, not figures... just for the purposes of this discussion - don't get your panties in a knot. And of course, if there are any years where you didn't get any MPs, then just submit 0/0 (as I did for 2005).

[dirge]

I'm in the unsatisfied camp. My enthusiasm for the line is actually waning.

Barring left field repaints ( Anime + / Diaclone ) and off chops exclusives (Atmos Lebron Screeching Duck MP10) TT have been moving at a glacial pace as far as core releases go over the last 17 years. You want to finish your '84 & '85 cast? Here, have another Optimus. Is your Grimlock feeling lonely? I've got a new Bumblebee that'll fix that etc etc

You raise a valid point. The G1 characters have certainly slowed down and yes, we don't need 47 Optimus Prime MPs. I'd much rather an obscure character like Skids than 3 Optimus Primes...

My pace of collecting has slowed, and really I'm only waiting for certain things I'm interested in (remaining cars & minibots, Astrotrain & Blitzwing - though any 1984-85 cartoon character I'll probably grab).



Fast forward to today and the line does not give me as much joy. Part of that is redoing characters that already had fine representations (Prime, Bumblebee etc) rather than tackling new characters. Part of that is the reduced number of G1 releases. Then you have more significant QC issues. And finally the prices have ramped up substantially, partly driven by the increased number of accessories that I don't have any interest for.

Yes I'll admit the accessories don't interest me either. That said, I still feel a $200 Hound with a bunch of random accessory crap (maybe it appeals more to the Japanese collector mindset? I don't know?) is a better deal than ... well almost every Beast Machines toy back in that era. Very few of which satisfied me for the price I paid. Hound is expensive but I am satisfied. It's a poseable G1 Hound that appeals to the nostalgic in me.

[Sinnertwin]

We are definitely spoiled in terms of sheer numbers. Here are the number of MPs released by both Takara and Hasbro since the beginning.

2003/4 = 3
2005 = 1
2006 = 3
2007 = 3
2008 = 1
2009 = 5
2010 = 6
2011 = 5
2012 = 7
2013 = 11
2014 = 14
2015 = 14
2016 = 13
2017 = 15
2018 = 15
2019 = 18

Those are indeed impressive numbers from an individual release point of view, but if we look at 2019 as an example for new moulds & unless I'm mistaken, there were only:

5 TakaraTomy releases: Megatron/ Optimus/ Bumblebee/ Blackarachnia/ Hound
2 Live Action Movie releases: Megatron/ Jazz

2018 had:
0 New moulds.
3 Live Action Movie releases: Bumblebee/ Barricade/ Ironhide

ETC ETC

These are the sort of numbers that i like to take into consideration when deciding if I feel that we're being spoiled for choice :)

[DaptoDog]

Those are indeed impressive numbers from an individual release point of view, but if we look at 2019 as an example for new moulds & unless I'm mistaken, there were only:

5 TakaraTomy releases: Megatron/ Optimus/ Bumblebee/ Blackarachnia/ Hound
2 Live Action Movie releases: Megatron/ Jazz

2018 had:
0 New moulds.
3 Live Action Movie releases: Bumblebee/ Barricade/ Ironhide

ETC ETC

These are the sort of numbers that i like to take into consideration when deciding if I feel that we're being spoiled for choice :)

Exactly. Those numbers more recently look high, do they include reissues Gok?

[Omega Metro]

I'm in the unsatisfied camp. My enthusiasm for the line is actually waning.

Barring left field repaints ( Anime + / Diaclone ) and off chops exclusives (Atmos Lebron Screeching Duck MP10) TT have been moving at a glacial pace as far as core releases go over the last 17 years. You want to finish your '84 & '85 cast? Here, have another Optimus. Is your Grimlock feeling lonely? I've got a new Bumblebee that'll fix that etc etc

Agree. Definitely not spoilt. I would be 84 years old if was waiting for TT to release the full G1 cartoon cast in MP form. Thank goodness for 3P.

[DELTAprime]

I would be 84 years old if was waiting for TT to release the full G1 cartoon cast in MP form.

That's one reason I switched to collecting G1 CHUG as my main thing over MP. About half the US G1 toyline is now represented in CHUG along with the odd cartoon only, comic only or JP only character getting toys.

[GoktimusPrime]

Exactly. Those numbers more recently look high, do they include reissues Gok?
No they do not. They're simply based on the MPs listed on the tfwiki page (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Transformers:_Masterpiece). So looking at just 2018, we had...
+ MP40 Targetmaster Hot Rodimus
+ MP41 Dinobot
+ MP42 Cordon
+ MP711 Convoy (7-Eleven)
+ MP34S Shadow Panther
+ MP10 Convoy (Golden Lagoon)
+ MP17+ Prowl
+ MP29+ Laserwave
+ MP36+ Megatron
+ MPM-5 Barricade (Hasbro)
+ MPM-5 Barricade (TakaraTOMY)
+ MPM-6 Ironhide (Hasbro)
+ MPM-6 Ironhide (TakaraTOMY)
+ MPM-7 Bumblebee (Hasbro)
+ MPM-7 Bumblebee (TakaraTOMY)
Granted that if we remove redecos and retools, as well as mould repeats, we have just four our of the eighteen releases being new non-repeats, or 22%.

But again, if we look at the early years of MP we see a lot of mould reuses too. In the first 8 years of MP we have only 6 new/original moulds, which are:
+ Convoy 1.0
+ Starscream
+ Megatron
+ Grimlock
+ Rodimus Convoy
+ Convoy 2.0
That's it. Out of the 27 MP releases in the first half, only five of them are new moulds - in other words, only 19% of MPs released between 2003/4 to 2011 were new moulds. So 2018's 22% new mould rate is still doing better than the entire first eight years of MPs combined! :o

P.S.
This is what my MP collection looked like in mid-2011 (I hadn't acquired Rodimus Prime yet)
https://i.ibb.co/fQQhjfs/masterpiece-collection2011.jpg
And here's what it looked like in mid-2019 (I hadn't acquired Black Widow or Hound yet)
https://i.ibb.co/0C5XXQn/masterpiece-collection2019.jpg

[DaptoDog]

No they do not. They're simply based on the MPs listed on the tfwiki page (https://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Transformers:_Masterpiece). So looking at just 2018, we had...
+ MP40 Targetmaster Hot Rodimus
+ MP41 Dinobot
+ MP42 Cordon
+ MP711 Convoy (7-Eleven)
+ MP34S Shadow Panther
+ MP10 Convoy (Golden Lagoon)
+ MP17+ Prowl
+ MP29+ Laserwave
+ MP36+ Megatron
+ MPM-5 Barricade (Hasbro)
+ MPM-5 Barricade (TakaraTOMY)
+ MPM-6 Ironhide (Hasbro)
+ MPM-6 Ironhide (TakaraTOMY)
+ MPM-7 Bumblebee (Hasbro)
+ MPM-7 Bumblebee (TakaraTOMY)
Granted that if we remove redecos and retools, as well as mould repeats, we have just four our of the eighteen releases being new non-repeats, or 22%.

But again, if we look at the early years of MP we see a lot of mould reuses too. In the first 8 years of MP we have only 6 new/original moulds, which are:
+ Convoy 1.0
+ Starscream
+ Megatron
+ Grimlock
+ Rodimus Convoy
+ Convoy 2.0
That's it. Out of the 27 MP releases in the first half, only five of them are new moulds - in other words, only 19% of MPs released between 2003/4 to 2011 were new moulds. So 2018's 22% new mould rate is still doing better than the entire first eight years of MPs combined! :o

P.S.
This is what my MP collection looked like in mid-2011 (I hadn't acquired Rodimus Prime yet)
https://i.ibb.co/fQQhjfs/masterpiece-collection2011.jpg
And here's what it looked like in mid-2019 (I hadn't acquired Black Widow or Hound yet)
https://i.ibb.co/0C5XXQn/masterpiece-collection2019.jpg

Ok well that explains it. There's really no point in double counting Hasbro and Takara releases when they have been identical in recent years. Also the 2019 list includes 5 atmos safari versions that were never released for sale. I'm going to redo your list with a chart and only include duplicate Hasbro/Takara releases where there were significant deco differences (eg Sunstorm). I think the numbers will look quite different on that basis.

[Raider]

Isn't data wonderful? You can manipulate it to suit any argument more often than not!

Are we spoiled? Guess it depends in what way you ask. As has been pointed out, there are lots of releases and so many more accessories with continually improving engineering. Then again, prices as increasing significantly and actual new bots are few and far between compared to retools and repaints.

I enjoy collecting MPs but do wish they would focus on more new characters from 84 and 85.

[dirge]

I enjoy collecting MPs but do wish they would focus on more new characters from 84 and 85.

That's what I'm in it for. I want the 84-85 cartoon guys. And while the pace is now fairly glacial, I'm aware that's partly because they did the Seekers, Datsuns & Lambor/Alert fairly early which bulked up the numbers. On the upside, that also ticked off a LOT of those characters.

I get that it's much easier to recoup the R&D for Starscream than it is for Warpath. And I love that I have all 6 seekers as Masterpieces.

But on the whole, I AM satisfied that the line has given us so many 84-85 characters. Even if there's about 2 dozen I'd love to buy; and 5 of those (Jazz, Mirage, Skids, Trailbreaker & Hoist) I REALLY want them to do.

[Jellico]

But you have to wonder about some of the missing ones like the Dinobots and Insecticons. Neither are licensed. Giant transforming robot dinosaurs are a license to print money, and a lack of Cons has long been a MP complaint. Jetfire is unlicensed and there is a proven market for a bot that big at that quality.

Anything 86. Why stop at Hotrod and Magnus? MP Unicron is going to come out before Galvatron?

Look at all the BW MPs. Good for them, but it makes a mockery of the idea a lack of repaint opportunities is holding the 84-86 back.

That got a bit ranty. But yeah. Odd choices. And the longer the line continues the less our assumptions as buyers make sense.

[GoktimusPrime]

Ok well that explains it. There's really no point in double counting Hasbro and Takara releases when they have been identical in recent years. Also the 2019 list includes 5 atmos safari versions that were never released for sale. I'm going to redo your list with a chart and only include duplicate Hasbro/Takara releases where there were significant deco differences (eg Sunstorm). I think the numbers will look quite different on that basis.
I just made the list based on TFwiki's MP page. :p There are some collectors out there who are super fussy about the difference between duplicate Hasbro and Takara releases, even if the difference is just some variation on the box. :rolleyes:

Anyway, here's a trimmed down list removing all variants and duplicates. I am going to count repaints who are whole new characters separately. e.g. Starscream, Skywarp and Thundercracker are separate characters. But I'm going to count variants of the same character as 1 (e.g. I'm counting MP32 but discounting MP38). And to make things simpler, I'm just going to ignore all special limited exclusive toys; I'm just looking at regular store release figures here. I am counting the earliest version of each toy and discounting any subsequent versions (e.g. I'm counting MP3 Starscream as 1 for 2006, but discounting the 2007 Hasbro variant). If you own a later version then just count it for the year of its earliest release -- I own Hasbro's MP3 but not Takara's, so I'm just going to count that as 1 for 2006. I'm also not counting the early MPMs which are just repackaged Bayformer Leaders.
Exception: I'm counting the MP11 Seekers all separately (Thundercracker, Skywarp & Coneheads) even though they were limited exclusives. I'm also counting MP15/16E as 1 because not only are they new characters, but Nightstalker is an entirely new mould (but the whole set counts as 1). Other than that I'm ignoring all the exclusives.
P.S.: This is why it was easier to count everything -- deciding on what to ignore and not ignore is tricky and totally subjective. Watch people reply with unhappy comments now about what I should and shouldn't have included. ;)

2003/4 = 1
2005 = 1
2006 = 1
2007 = 2
2008 = 1
2009 = 1
2010 = 0
2011 = 2
2012 = 3
2013 = 7
2014 = 3
2015 = 6
2016 = 8
2017 = 9
2018 = 6
2019 = 7

So looking at this trimmed down list, we can see that in the first eight years of MP there was an average of 1 (1.1) toys per year. In the second half of the MP period we can see that there is an average of 6 (6.1) toys per year. This means that the average number of MPs being released in more recent years is SEXTUPLE that of what we had in the first half! :eek:

Feel free the modify the list as you see fit and see how the numbers compare. I think the trend is that there is, on average, many more MPs released between 2012 to 2019 than 2003/4 to 2011.

[DaptoDog]

Ok well that explains it. There's really no point in double counting Hasbro and Takara releases when they have been identical in recent years. Also the 2019 list includes 5 atmos safari versions that were never released for sale. I'm going to redo your list with a chart and only include duplicate Hasbro/Takara releases where there were significant deco differences (eg Sunstorm). I think the numbers will look quite different on that basis.

Ok here's the chart based on the above criteria that expresses what I was getting at. Obviously each release is not created equal so I've tried to distinguish the G1 + repaints that are essentially the same mold and character but in a toy or toon deco, which are seen as less essential by some depending on the degree of redeco.

https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/r670/lemmead/Transformers%20Masterpiece_zps6ldqqoyo.jpg

If you are a G1 centric collector like me then just by going off the number of releases 2013-2016 was an amazing period. This obviously doesn't speak to quality but that is very subjective.

We can see that from 2017 onwards there has been a substantial drop-off in G1 figures excluding + repaints being released. As Dirge highlighted, part of that is explained by the fact that the easy multiple character repaints (Datsuns, Lambos etc) have been mostly done. However, Takara is definitely milking the molds less with Diaclone repaints substantially scaled back (eg Red Sunstreaker and Deepcover out of Sideswipe were previously considered gimmes). I imagine this has been done because they didn't sell well enough or they are simply prioritising factory slots on Movie and Beast Wars figures.

You could argue that we were spoiled over 2013-2016 and now need to adjust to the new normal. If your objective is simply to fill out the G1 cast then this would be disappointing.

Having said that, I do also enjoy the Movie Masterpiece figures so for me personally it's not that bad.

[Paulbot]

In the early days of Masterpiece I think it's worth considering Binaltech as part of it. The collector focus, licensed car models, G1 characters, in scale with MP01 it was doing a version of what later MP toys would do, just without the cartoon accuracy.

I remember how excited we all were when the first images of Smokescreen appeared, and to be honest I don't think any was quite as good as a "modern" remake of a G1 Autobot Car until the MPs line started with them in the MP10 scale. (Although some people have commented how the prefer Binaltech/Alternator Hound to MP Hound)

[Sinnertwin]

Some good info here
Anybody care to do a graph with only unique moulds & no repaints or remoulds? :p

[dirge]

But you have to wonder about some of the missing ones like the Dinobots and Insecticons. Neither are licensed. Giant transforming robot dinosaurs are a license to print money, and a lack of Cons has long been a MP complaint. Jetfire is unlicensed and there is a proven market for a bot that big at that quality.

I suspect the Insecticons (which, let's face it got almost no characterisation) would not sell all that well due to the less realistic alt modes. Lots of kids loved Hound or Smokescreen because they were recogniseable cars. Even if neither really got the same level of characterisation as say Bumblebee or Grimlock. Similarly, the Dinobots aside from Grimlock & Swoop got little characterisation. Grimlock is the Dinobot everyone remembers.

As for a lack of Decepticons, I'm surprised we've seen neither Astrotrain or Blitzwing. Both would sell well & you could do wonders for those two at MP level complexity. I know I'd snap both up!



Anything 86. Why stop at Hotrod and Magnus? MP Unicron is going to come out before Galvatron?


Well, they did Ratbat but screwed us over by only bundling him with Soundblaster.

Perhaps partly a lack of repaint opportunities (the Battlechargers spring to mind, but they're hardly prominent) and a lack of memorable characters. Aside from Hot Rod/Rodimus, Magnus, Grimlock, Galvatron & Cyclonus who really got much attention in the media? A lack of a Galvatron is surprising, but I'm not surprised we've yet to see a MP Blurr. The 1986 Decepticons, BTW, were actually very sparse once you take out the combiner teams.

Personally, I'd LOVE Masterpiece Stunticons & Aerialbots (also appeared in season 2 of the cartoon, so from a character POV I lump them into 1985) and would bite your hand off for a Masterpiece Pipes... but Pipes was hardly prominent and I know he'd sell poorly. Even if I'd probably buy two :p

[DaptoDog]

Some good info here
Anybody care to do a graph with only unique moulds & no repaints or remoulds? :p

I got you. ;)

https://oimg.photobucket.com/albums/r670/lemmead/Transformers%20Masterpiece%20-%20New%20Moulds_zpsn6m4zbdq.jpg

By number of unique moulds the line has never been stronger. Though while 2019 yielded 3 new G1 moulds, Hound is the only new G1 mould of a previously unreleased character in the last two years.

Note: I'm no expert on Alternators / Binaltech so didn't include them in this for the early years, though it is an interesting perspective Paulbot.

[Sinnertwin]

Thanks DD! Really puts it into perspective for me looking at how many new designs they've released over the last few years.

[Raider]

Thanks DD! Really puts it into perspective for me looking at how many new designs they've released over the last few years.

Yeah good job mate. I never would have guessed that 4 was the high point on original G1 releases and that we had 3 last year. 2018 though... yikes... they owe us now. Gimme more original G1! I want Dinobots and more Decepticons!

[GoktimusPrime]

Looking at DaptoDog's first chart, we can see that the average number of MP releases per year in the first half is 3 (2.8), whereas in the second half the average annual number of MPs is 11 (10.6). This means that the second half has seen nearly quadruple (x3.8) the number of MP releases. In DaptoDog's second chart, we can see that the average number of annual MP releases in the first half is 1 (0.8), whereas in the second half it's exactly 4, so by this count the number of annual MPs in has quintupled (4/0.8=5).

So no matter how we choose to move these goal posts, we can see that the average number of MPs released per year in more recent years has greatly increased compared to those released in the early years. If we average those averages...
* Counting all MPs = x6
* Discounting variants and duplicates = x4
* Counting MP releases = x4
* Counting new MP moulds = x5
So we can see that average the number of MPs released per year has quintupled (x4.8).

[Raider]

Yay for math! I think the point was simply to show that the numbers as posted on the wiki aren't a true reflection. Yeah if we use averages of course it's a contrast. If we reduced it to looking at the last 2 years for unique G1 MPs then it is only 1.5. From those 3 in 2019, as was pointed out, only 1 was a new character. So we have 1 new character only in 2 years.

Yes there has been a lot across all areas and many repaints. It is not just a matter of quantity.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

So, getting back to the original question/thread title, My Two Cents is...

No, Not Really.

MPs are high-end collectibles. Having high expectations for them is entirely reasonable compared to 15-odd-years-ago mainline releases. And a lot of the grievances leveled against contemporary MPs are legitimate. A $150+ toy really shouldn't break out of the box.

That said, Transformers fans are often pretty much the definition of an Unpleasant Fanbase. So there's that. But adjusting your expectations to the standard of the line in question is entirely reasonable, and MPs have gotten pretty pricey in recent years.



I'm totally waiting on official MP Insecticons btw. And Blaster plus cassettes, and Cyclonus, and Scourge. Plus a red redeco of MP Sunstreaker, and a few more besides. But I can wait - I'm pretty sure they'll come eventually. :)

[Raider]

I'm totally waiting on official MP Insecticons btw. And Blaster plus cassettes, and Cyclonus, and Scourge. Plus a red redeco of MP Sunstreaker, and a few more besides. But I can wait - I'm pretty sure they'll come eventually. :)

But I want them all now! And reasonably priced! And perfect representations in bot and alt mode!

Completely agree with your post. Blaster and the cassettes to square off against Soundwave would be awesome.

[danny-boy]

I think the G1 aspect of the line slowly dying out. They?ll release a new version of Soundwave and Starscream, but beyond that, maybe a Hoist/Trailbreaker. They?ll do Mirage, Jazz, and Cliffjumper if they can get the rights. Sideswipe might get a new mould. The Raiden Project will wipe out an entire years schedule if released separately.

I hope I?m wrong but there?s nothing on the horizon except a repaint mid year.

[Jellico]

To be really blunt. What do the Japanese like? That seems to be the core concern for any MP released. And to be blunter they seem to like good guy leaders. I mean, lion Prime came out of nowhere. Rodimus, Magnus, and Star Sabre are all somewhat orphans. The cynic in me suggests looking at every Prime in the line.


Raiden scares the heck out of me. A big expensive combiner Japan only when they couldn't even MP Devastator. The main positive is some cross promotion with Japan Rail? At least it isn't a Japanese fashion company. What does that say about the future of the MP line?

[Sinnertwin]

I suspect the Insecticons (which, let's face it got almost no characterisation) would not sell all that well due to the less realistic alt modes. Lots of kids loved Hound or Smokescreen because they were recogniseable cars. Even if neither really got the same level of characterisation as say Bumblebee or Grimlock. Similarly, the Dinobots aside from Grimlock & Swoop got little characterisation. Grimlock is the Dinobot everyone remembers.

As for a lack of Decepticons, I'm surprised we've seen neither Astrotrain or Blitzwing. Both would sell well & you could do wonders for those two at MP level complexity. I know I'd snap both up!

I think that the Insecticons, like the rest of the Dinobots would sell quite well actually. Third Party companies like Fans Toys have released their versions of both teams and some command crazy prices on the aftermarket. Fans Toys have even gone as far as releasing select Dinobots in G2 and Diaclone colours. The market is definitely there.


Perhaps partly a lack of repaint opportunities (the Battlechargers spring to mind, but they're hardly prominent) and a lack of memorable characters. Aside from Hot Rod/Rodimus, Magnus, Grimlock, Galvatron & Cyclonus who really got much attention in the media? A lack of a Galvatron is surprising, but I'm not surprised we've yet to see a MP Blurr. The 1986 Decepticons, BTW, were actually very sparse once you take out the combiner teams.

Personally, I'd LOVE Masterpiece Stunticons & Aerialbots (also appeared in season 2 of the cartoon, so from a character POV I lump them into 1985) and would bite your hand off for a Masterpiece Pipes... but Pipes was hardly prominent and I know he'd sell poorly. Even if I'd probably buy two :p

I dont think TT care about repaints anymore. Why? The LAM masterpieces have very limited repaints, but we've had 7 released so far. So there's all of that money and time invested in figures you can probably only get 1 figure out of. Touching back on the previous third party point, there are companies out there killing TT for '86 movie MP releases.

[Ralph Wiggum]

If you:

1. Collect any Masterpiece Transformers line.
2. Have no regard to budget or value for money
3. Have no issues with QC

then yeah, you're spoiled. Take out any of the above, then you're not spoiled.

[Seraphim Prime]

As I said in the Masterpiece design thread (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/26522-Masterpiece-style-has-changed), I think we've shifts in designers over the years, which means what was considered to be the "masterpiece style" under one designer gets reimagined under another.

From what I've been able to gather (and happy to be corrected) the designers have been:
MP-1 to MP-9 (ex MP-5 and the MP-4 trailer) - Hironori Kobayashi
MP-5 (and MP-4 trailer) - Hisashi Yuki (in 6 days!)

MP-10 to MP-23 - Shogo Hasui (with Hironori Kobayashi finishing Ultra Magnus and doing the initial Starscream design) - this is what in my mind came to define "Masterpiece"

MP-24 - Hisashi Yuki
MP-25 to MP-30 (ex MP-28) - Hironori Kobayashi
MP-28 - Tomoya Miyake

MP-32 onwards - design team led by Hironori Kobayashi, with much of the main design appearing to be done by Yuki Ohshima

It's been MP-32 onwards (Inferno) which seems to have been the start of the accessory-heaving animation accurate Masterpiece, with Megatron being a complex design-heavy figure, with a more complicated engineering to achieve the desired accuracies. I think we then saw a shift in engineering with BW Dinobot to a panel-flipping kibble-hiding animation accuracy which has bled into some of the other recent designs including Hound, Bumblebee, Optimus and Sunstreaker.

Greater complexity leads to finer tolerances, which can lead to greater costs and more potential breakage.


I think we're spoiled if we were to say we wish we didn't have them at all. But I think it is reasonable to note that the Hasui Masterpieces appear to have been designed with a bit more simplicity in the engineering and robustness to the toy, which the newer ones do not, and that a desire to go back to the sturdier design is not an invalid request for something that is being sold at a significant price point.

[drifand]

So, getting back to the original question/thread title, My Two Cents is...

No, Not Really.

MPs are high-end collectibles. Having high expectations for them is entirely reasonable compared to 15-odd-years-ago mainline releases. And a lot of the grievances leveled against contemporary MPs are legitimate. A $150+ toy really shouldn't break out of the box.

That said, Transformers fans are often pretty much the definition of an Unpleasant Fanbase. So there's that. But adjusting your expectations to the standard of the line in question is entirely reasonable, and MPs have gotten pretty pricey in recent years.



I'm totally waiting on official MP Insecticons btw. And Blaster plus cassettes, and Cyclonus, and Scourge. Plus a red redeco of MP Sunstreaker, and a few more besides. But I can wait - I'm pretty sure they'll come eventually. :)

Tada, totally with you. I mean seriously how TT is going to over engineer this will be beyond me for MP insecticons. There be no dumb no licensing excuses etc. But hey go figure on their choices on making MPs.

People are just done waiting, 2018 was the worse for G1 Mps

I do not like Hasui pieces and partly was because they were half arsed not painted during that period, may not be entirely his fault but it put me off, especially wheeljack was not fully painted like what it is now.

To make matters worse fanbase were so EXCITED about mp-44 starscream head they wanted another remake. OMG how are we going to finish this line?

One of the major issues that began was people treated Masterpiece line as an Action figure not a high end collectors item and now when they actually do apply quality paint is so expensive.

I have to say, one of the peak points for TF MPs was during Ultra Magnus - Grapple. I was still very relying on TT than even looking at 3P companies.

If we are honestly spoiled for choices, nobody will be seriously bothered with the 3p companies have to offer, but this appears not to be the case.

[GoktimusPrime]

To be really blunt. What do the Japanese like? That seems to be the core concern for any MP released. And to be blunter they seem to like good guy leaders.
That's pretty much true. Remember that MP Star Sabre was decided as the result of a fan's choice poll. And since the very beginning Takara(TOMY) have allowed collectors to submit direct feedback on MPs, including nominated and voting on which characters we would like to see for future releases. Unfortunately the online poll (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/201-How-to-answer-the-Takara-TOMY-online-feedback-survey) was geoblocked a few years ago, so you can only access it if you're in Japan or if you have a VPN. But yeah, a lot of Japanese fans do like good guys and good guy leaders. This is why Star Sabre is such a popular character despite the fact that his persona is pretty much just a carbon copy of Convoy. Dai Atlas on the other hand offered something different and Japanese fans hated him -- all because Dai Atlas breaks the "Convoy mould." :rolleyes: But having said that, some Western fans can be like this too, such as people who really dislike IDW's Star Sabre. But this is why MP Star Sabre's Japanese bio is based on his Convoy-esque G1 persona, whereas his English language bio is based on his IDW persona.

I'd really like to see them finish off the 1984 Autobots for MPs (repaint/retool potentials in brackets):
* Ligier (red Diaclone Ligier)
* Trailbreaker (Hoist)
* Meister (Stepper)
* Gong (Outback)
* Drag (Pipes)
* Gears (Wave)
* Charger (Tailgate)
* Cliff (yellow Cliff, Hubcap)

Licensing issues is holding back Ligier, Meister and Cliff. Bayformers Scrapmetal transforms into a Volvo excavator, so assuming that they still have the Volvo licence then it should make an MP Drag possible. We know that TakaraTOMY have the licences for Suzuki, GM/Pontiac and Toyota, which would make Brawn, Charger and Trailbreaker all respectively possible. Gears is a generic pickup truck, so there isn't even any licensing required. Just make him already! And that's it. I can understand the hold up on Ligier and the Porsches, but I really wish that they'd do all the other remaining first year Autobots that they already have the vehicle licences for.

And once that's done I'd like to see the move on and do as much G1 as possible. Finish off the Dinobots. MP's never moved past Middle G1 though... it's done a lot of Early G1 and some Middle G1, but it's never touched Late G1. I guess the demand for late G1 isn't there, so don't hold your breath for an MP Moon Jet or Checker Road. ;) I think CHUG is more likely to fill out the rest of the G1 roster, and they've done an impressive job in many respects. :) CHUG's recently been giving us some pretty obscure characters like Shuffler, Loafer, Roadfire, Dai Atlas, Star Convoy, Reflector etc. -- heck, they gave us Powerdasher! (give us CHUG Omnibots and Time Warrior, damnit!). I'm not expecting MP to cover all of G1, but I would very much love CHUG to do it. :) Still kinda disappointed about some potential CHUG repaints that were never done, such as Metro Titan, GADEP, Battle Gaia, Guard City etc. :/ But again, maybe the demand's not there.
https://i.ibb.co/9ZtX2bX/daiatlas.jpg
No MP but CHUG's gotcha covered

[dirge]

I'd really like to see them finish off the 1984 Autobots for MPs (repaint/retool potentials in brackets):
* Ligier (red Diaclone Ligier)
* Trailbreaker (Hoist)
* Meister (Stepper)
* Gong (Outback)
* Drag (Pipes)
* Gears (Wave)
* Charger (Tailgate)
* Cliff (yellow Cliff, Hubcap)


Lol you just named most of the characters I long for. The remaining cars, Pipes, Cliffjumper & Gears... You only missed Beachcomber.

[Zixxy]

Honestly I believe masterpieces are be figures you collect if you truly love a certain character, and believe that character deserves the best representation it can get in figure form.
They're not so much "Toys" as other Transformers are.

They're made not for the transformation and the fun of having them;
But are made for the robot mode, the alternate mode, and to pose so well that your brain refuses to understand this thing can transform.

They're more a marvel of mechanical genius to ogle at than something to enjoy hands on.

[GoktimusPrime]

Lol you just named most of the characters I long for. The remaining cars, Pipes, Cliffjumper & Gears... You only missed Beachcomber.
I was just focusing on the First Year Autobots (and other incidental repaint/retool potentials), so I didn't include other Autobots that aren't shared moulds with First Years. If we want to include both First and Second Year Autobot Cars and Mini-Vehicles (which to be fair, are all "first years" as far as Japan is concerned) then what we have are:
Grapple
Hoist
Inferno
Alert
Skids
Smokescreen
Tracks
Beachcomber
Adams
Powerglide
Seaspray
Warpath

And among the Dinobots:
Grimlock
Slag
Sludge
Snarl
Snarl
Swoop

Year 2 gets trickier as it includes non-Takara moulds, some of which TakaraTOMY may not be able to legally imitate the likeness of. Not to mention the fact that these non-Takara moulds were never released in Japan anyway; even G1 Omega Supreme only debuted in 2008 as Takara had acquired the rights after merging with Tomy. A cartoon-like MP Skyfire would be legally doable (and be relevant to the Japanese market since he appeared in the cartoon). But others like the Deluxe Autobots and Deluxe Insecticons may not be possible. But I think that a lot of fans would like to see the rest of the Early G1 Cars and Dinobots done as MPs.

[BigTransformerTrev]

I feel some replies have missed the point of my post. It’s not about Hound (he happens to be the most recent & so is topical).

My point is that with the last few years of Masterpieces, it’s a far cry from the “dark” days when there was one line, no G1 character toys & no realistic vehicle modes. Etc.

Given that we’ve had several years of Masterpieces, are we right to be unsatisfied? Or should be be happy that HasTak are giving us classic characters in such a format? For me, despite the flaws we nitpick and and the price tags, I’m happy & consider myself fortunate. In 2000, I’d have given my left arm for a single G1 Masterpiece toy. Let alone 30+. Even if some do have flaws.


I found myself feeling somewhat similar in 2006 when the first Classics figures were revealed. Even though the Unicron Wars had a few characters that were obviously partly based on G1, suddenly after decades they were making figures based on the characters and cartoon I loved in the 80's! Of course now Classics/Generations/Whatever has been running for 14 years so it's only characters that hadn't been done properly before in the line, such as Reflector, that get me pumped.

In regards to Masterpiece, yeah I suppose we are lucky, though I wouldn't say spoiled. Given the infrequency of new figures, the recolors of existing figures into obscure diaclone characters or else just remade slightly more toon-accurate, and the high price tag means that the line doesn't thrill me. Don't get me wrong, I really like it and I've picked up the latest figures of Hound and Blackarachnia, but when you look at other sci-fi/popculture franchises a lot of them have very expensive high end figures as well. Masterpiece is a great line and I hope it continues, but I don't think we are spoiled to have it.

[Seraphim Prime]

Reviving an old thread - I was wondering where people had found the information about the change in factory materials for Hound, and came across TFW2005's Wonderfest Report (https://news.tfw2005.com/2020/02/09/tfw2005-reports-from-wonderfest-takara-tomy-representatives-declarations-extra-images-from-the-event-404884), which includes the following:


Regarding the recent constant price increment: Takara Tomy booth director mentioned that fans have overly demanded for the cartoon aesthetic. So in order to pull off the cartoon aesthetic while maintaining the proper alt mode, the number of parts for each figure has gone up compared to the Masterpiece Datsuns or Wheeljack. The cost of materials has also gone up which also contributes to the rise in pricing. On this matter, Gamelingual let him know that many fans feel that they will be forced to quit the hobby if the prices become too expensive. The response was that this this is something they have discussed with the executives and it contributes to the decisions of what figures will be made next.

Where's the overwhelming demand for cartoon accuracy coming from?

I know there was a huge appreciation for the level of "magic" achieved with figures like Dinobot and Megatron, but I feel that cartoon accuracy is demanded there because the models were so defined.

The G1 cartoon can hardly be called consistent even within itself, let alone being consistent with other sources. I think everyone loved the Datsun, Lancia, and Sideswipe moulds because they gave us a wonderful balance of cartoon likeness, effective transformation, and realistic vehicle. It was a the best representation of everything that that character was - not a screen accurate replica that allows us to re-enact the cartoon.

I feel like the obsession with cartoon accuracy is giving us poorer quality figures at much greater prices, and I for one would gladly sacrifice perfect accuracy for a figure that was more affordable and could be handled more frequently and without needing to be extra delicate.

[dirge]

Where's the overwhelming demand for cartoon accuracy coming from?


My understanding is it's the Japanese fans. TakaraTomy still do their fansurveys, but geoblock them so only those with a Japanese IP can submit them. My source of info... Gok.



I feel like the obsession with cartoon accuracy is giving us poorer quality figures at much greater prices, and I for one would gladly sacrifice perfect accuracy for a figure that was more affordable and could be handled more frequently and without needing to be extra delicate.


I feel it was needed for Ironhide & Ratchet (for obvious reasons) and Sunstreaker is better for it given the awkwardly long arms & lack of waist/groin on the G1 toy. But I feel Hound took it too far with tyres that fold up to conceal alongside FALSE wheels on his ankles and a need for every accessory to fold into his legs. Sure, it was very clever engineering, but not worth the extra price all that necessitated.

[GoktimusPrime]

Where's the overwhelming demand for cartoon accuracy coming from?

I feel like the obsession with cartoon accuracy is giving us poorer quality figures at much greater prices, and I for one would gladly sacrifice perfect accuracy for a figure that was more affordable and could be handled more frequently and without needing to be extra delicate.
Mate... you are preaching to the choir. I don't even like the term "cartoon accuracy," and prefer saying "show likeness," because the fact of the matter is - for most Transformers - the toys came first and therefore they are NOT inaccurate to the cartoon. The cartoon was inaccurate to the toys. I personally prefer toy accuracy, but I know that I'm in the minority and obviously TakaraTOMY are going to cater for what the majority want.
https://i.ibb.co/mvPc3Rg/ironhide-toyacc.jpg

As you said, previous MPs had a balance, and this balance has been lost as the toys are ever increasingly shifting towards cartoon-likeness. But it is as fans have been demanding. And the main reason why I used to translate the Takara(TOMY) surveys (I used to translate the printed card surveys too before they went online) is to give Anglophone fans a chance to have their voices heard directly to Takara(TOMY). Alas, they've cut off our ability give direct explicit feedback. I wonder if it was to do with the fact that Hasbro was also doing MPs for their market at the time that the geoblock came in. <shrugs> <---this is pure speculation :p

https://i.ibb.co/fC9YGKx/mp-ironhide16.jpg

My understanding is it's the Japanese fans. TakaraTomy still do their fansurveys, but geoblock them so only those with a Japanese IP can submit them. My source of info... Gok.
:D
The online survey is here:
https://www.takaratomyfans.com/
I for one haven't been able to access it from outside Japan. I used to take screen shots and translate the online surveys here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/201-How-to-answer-the-Takara-TOMY-online-feedback-survey), but I haven't been able to do so since the geoblock came into place. The last time being three years ago which was when I was last in Japan. If anyone here is able to access the survey and you want something translated, by all means please post screen shots on the Takara online survey thread. :) I did call TakaraTOMY directly twice after the geoblock started asking them to consider removing the geoblock, but they've evidently elected not to do that.

[Dan]

I'm not an MP collector, but I am an MP review watcher, and from that perspective I'm not a fan of the cartoon accurate trend. The thing we sometimes overlook is that the G1 cartoon was cheap animation knocked out in a hurry, and it seems odd to me for an expensive deluxe toy (in the proper sense of the word) to emulate that. I'd rather they aim to emulate some of the better box art, which I think suits them more.

I'm particularly dismayed by those extra cartoon accurate re-decos that paint reflected light and shadow onto the toys, as if they don't already have that by virtue of being objects. Surely that means they would have to stand at one exact angle within a display relative to lighting. ;)

[kurdt_the_goat]

The G1 cartoon can hardly be called consistent even within itself, let alone being consistent with other sources. I think everyone loved the Datsun, Lancia, and Sideswipe moulds because they gave us a wonderful balance of cartoon likeness, effective transformation, and realistic vehicle. It was a the best representation of everything that that character was - not a screen accurate replica that allows us to re-enact the cartoon.

I feel like the obsession with cartoon accuracy is giving us poorer quality figures at much greater prices, and I for one would gladly sacrifice perfect accuracy for a figure that was more affordable and could be handled more frequently and without needing to be extra delicate.

I certainly hope that the amount of returns and complaints about Hound breakages is a wake up call for them. No one wants delicate figures and breakages, and they could certainly do well to stop a little short of some of the things they attempt, in favour of greater structural integrity.

Thankfully mine has no issues. But reading threads on it, even the people with breakages still love the figure's design. It has an incredible transformation to a super clean robot mode mode with amazing articulation. It's a shame MPs are going up in price (which only makes any issues that much bigger of a deal), but a big part of that is the accessory bloat as much as parts count imo.

While they're certainly going for cartoon aesthetic, I do wonder just how different a 2012 Hound or Sunstreaker might have looked compared to what we got recently. Or how much different a new Sideswipe with skinnier chest would be to MP-12. I think Sunstreaker and Hound fit in with the others quite nicely. They don't forgo panel details or toy nods like say Ironhide did. I feel like he's a bit of an outlier because the van kind of afforded them greater choice for styling the legs and arms, than the bots who wear more of their vehicles. I don't think a modern Sideswipe would look as different to MP-12, as say MP-10 does to MP-44.

The cars I feel, have stuck pretty close to each other overall (especially vehicle-wise - I mean Sunstreaker and Sideswipe are nigh on identical) - it's when you look at some of the others that there is a more obvious difference in aesthetic. Personally I think an eventual Jazz will probably be very similar in aesthetic to what we got with Prowl. But something like Trailbreaker might look more in line with what we got with Ironhide. If they come right after each other, it might seem a little like "So, what's the direction of the line now!?".

I think the specifics of each character - their alt mode, their difficulty in transforming to something resembling the cartoon, and the toy's budget all play a part in the end result as much as any overall aim to be cartoon accurate. The earlier cars had lower budgets/less parts, and couldn't do as much to achieve cartoon accuracy. The Beast Wars MPs are very accurate, but a great degree of that is due to their shells affording freedom to cover pieces that can look like anything the designer wants, and their higher price. And like you say, because the models were so defined in the first place.

Then look at Arcee. They've taken much more artistic liberty compared to the cartoon than any of us expected I think. Is it just that they can do whatever they want with her body, since almost none of it is the car, and a designer has their own image in mind this time? Part of it is because they can't afford the space to store fake chests instead of using the real hood as her chest. Or does it signal a shift away from cartoon accuracy?

I don't think we can necessarily look to the last or any figure really, as some kind of definitive guide for how the next one will turn out. There's a lot of factors that go into what is and isn't possible and what the end result will be.

I wish they were cheaper of course, but Sunstreaker and Hound are so good, that I'm pleased Jazz hasn't come yet. He's going to be incredible when he does!
I think if given the choice, I'd rather have 202X Jazz than 2012 Jazz. With good QC please :D

[GoktimusPrime]

The thing we sometimes overlook is that the G1 cartoon was cheap animation knocked out in a hurry,
Toei's Kohara Shohei (https://tfwiki.net/mediawiki/images2/5/53/Kohara_Autobots.jpg) initially designed animation models, but these were simplified by Sunbow's Floro Dery as a deliberately stylistic choice.
https://i.ibb.co/wswdt1q/florodery.jpg

[Deano85]

I wish they were cheaper of course, but Sunstreaker and Hound are so good, that I'm pleased Jazz hasn't come yet. He's going to be incredible when he does!
I think if given the choice, I'd rather have 202X Jazz than 2012 Jazz. With good QC please :D

I would love Jazz to be more like the datsuns that dont take too long to transform, compared to Sunstreaker and all the extra transformation steps.

[dirge]

I would love Jazz to be more like the datsuns that dont take too long to transform, compared to Sunstreaker and all the extra transformation steps.

I feel the same. Jazz doesn't need all the extra steps to "clean up" the shape of his robot mode. He probably only needs some extra jointing in the doors so you hve the "toy" option of visible doors and the "cartoon" option of concealed doors.

[kurdt_the_goat]

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't think he'll need extra steps or parts to anywhere near the degree of Sunstreaker or Hound. But i'd guess they may try and do some clever integration for his speakers that may not have happened if it was earlier in the line, and maybe something else I haven't thought of too. The cartoon speakers won't fit nicely like the little ones on United Jazz. I was speaking more from my perspective that Sunstreaker and Hound are probably the best of the cars or at least the most impressive from a transformation point of view. I want them to continue to improve and amaze! But my point being that I think aesthetically he'll fit right in alongside the Datsuns will probably only be truer because his transformation needn't be overly complex. Either way hopefully we aren't waiting too long to find out :)

[DELTAprime]

I love cartoon accuracy. But frankly, Takara are compromising the figures in the pursuit of cartoon accuracy.

I'm not asking for figures to look 100% the same as the animation model.

WFC E Optimus Prime has a cartoon accurate deco and the silhouette says "Optimus Prime" and that's really what I want.

Does he look 100% accurate? No. Is he a better toy than MP44? Hell yes.

[GoktimusPrime]

But i'd guess they may try and do some clever integration for his speakers that may not have happened if it was earlier in the line, and maybe something else I haven't thought of too. The cartoon speakers won't fit nicely like the little ones on United Jazz.
I would expect MP Meister's speakers to just be detachable accessories rather than built into the toy itself.

Either way hopefully we aren't waiting too long to find out :)
It entirely depends on when Porsche will come to the table. We know that HasTak have been itching to do a licensed Porsche Transformer as far back as 2004, as they initially wanted to make BT Meister a Porsche 986, but Porsche refused to play ball so it ended up being a Mazda RX-8.
https://i.ibb.co/brBTkGk/temp.jpg
Still, Volkswagen and Lamborghini were also refusing to give their licences for Transformers at the time (hence why Alternity Bumble is a Suzuki Swift and BT Lambor is a Dodge Viper), and both of those companies have since come to the table for Transformers. Porsche has proven to be the most stubborn, but hopefully HasTak will eventually win them over. Then let MP Meister, Cliff and Hubcap be made! :) And for those wanting MP Stunticons, the Porsche licence would also allow an MP Dead End to be made, but the other obstacle for that set would be Wildrider as Mattel currently holds the licence for toy Ferraris (this is why the DOTM Dino/Mirage toys were Audi-based). That would be a harder licence to obtain as I don't see Mattel, Hasbro's greatest rival, letting go of that any time soon.

[kurdt_the_goat]

I would expect MP Meister's speakers to just be detachable accessories rather than built into the toy itself.

It does seem very unlikely they'd be able to get them in there doesn't it!
Then again, maybe those big posts they're sitting on could allow them to move them out from a place with more storage space.

https://i.imgur.com/Bt5Pibu.jpg

[ZoonMaster5000]

Isn?t Porsche owned by VW Audi Group? Which to my understanding is how they got the Lambo and beetle car.

[Tha_Phantom]

Isn?t Porsche owned by VW Audi Group? Which to my understanding is how they got the Lambo and beetle car.

They have the same overall owner, but are run by different people day to day. I doubt the heads really care about making sure toy licenses are consistent across all companies, it would be a case by case basis.

[DELTAprime]

Isn?t Porsche owned by VW Audi Group? Which to my understanding is how they got the Lambo and beetle car.

Most car companies have a licensing division in each brand to better look after the individual brand image. GM is the only one I know of that has everything go through them. The likes of VW, Fiat and Toyota have separate divisions for each brand.

That said sometimes decisions come down from on high that effect licensing for everything in the greater company. (ie: Toyota and Lexus killing all video game licencing deals for the last couple of year)

[GoktimusPrime]

It does seem very unlikely they'd be able to get them in there doesn't it!
Then again, maybe those big posts they're sitting on could allow them to move them out from a place with more storage space.
The speakers seem to sit at different places in different episodes/scenes - sometimes from out of the rear windows, sometimes from under the rear spoiler etc.
Plus they need to separately attach on the forearms in robot mode, so yeah, I reckon they'd do them as accessories and maybe have different attachment pieces to place it on different parts of the car.


Isn?t Porsche owned by VW Audi Group? Which to my understanding is how they got the Lambo and beetle car.
Different marking/licensing departments. Remember that they acquired the rights for Audi back in 2009, but they still didn't have the rights for Lamborghini or Volkswagen (which is why ROTF Sideways was an Audi R8, but Sideswipe was a Corvette Stingray). The rights for Lamborghini was acquired in 2012 for MP Lambor. Volkswagen was a funny thing... HasTak never so much as lost the licence for VW but rather VW refused to allow their licence to be used on any new toy character that was affiliated with war, and this is the same thing with Porsche. Now we know that between 1994 to 2014 there were no VW Transformers based on any character affiliated with war (e.g. Bumblebee), but there was one Transformer toy developed in 2010 that transformed into a Volkswagen Beetle - the Disney Label Donald Duck Transformer. It was permitted because the Disney Label TF line was not based on the warring robots canon of the mainstream Transformers line, and thus wasn't "associated with war." Obviously VW has relaxed this condition and we've had warring VW TFs since 2014, but AFAIK Porsche is still adamant that they won't licence any toy that is associated with war.

I don't know if they could get away with releasing an MP Meister without any weapons, and just market him as a music loving Autobot with woofers etc. (and include Jazz's weapons in other MPs) -- the fact that he's tied to the G1 canon that's about an intergalactic robot civil war might be enough to dissuade Porsche from allowing the licensing. Ditto Cliff and Hubcap. :/

[danny-boy]

It was a the best representation of everything that that character was - not a screen accurate replica that allows us to re-enact the cartoon.


I don't think that era was the best representation of everything that character was. It's how the designer interpreted the character. If his vision fits with yours, then more power to you. I don't even know how to describe MP-10. It's Optimus Prime alright, but it doesn't look like any Optimus Prime I'd seen before. It has some toy influences. I can't even see any cartoon influences. There are too many liberties taken.

I've been concerned with the G1 aspect of the Masterpiece line for a whole different reason. MP-51 Arcee is an odd choice and looking like the only G1 release for the rest of the year. It's slow down to a halt. I wonder if they're done.

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't even know how to describe MP-10. It's Optimus Prime alright, but it doesn't look like any Optimus Prime I'd seen before. It has some toy influences. I can't even see any cartoon influences. There are too many liberties taken.
Let's compare...
https://i.ibb.co/TTgYvJc/temp.jpg
(T = original G1 toy; C = Sunbow cartoon; M = MP10 toy) - let's assume that in the cartoon model that white = chrome and grey = silver
* T = yellow visor-like eyes on blue face; C = blue eyes on silver face; M = blue eyes on silver face.
* T = thick shorter antennae; C = thin longer antennae; M = thin longer antennae.
* T = insignia on both upper arms; C = insigne on left upper arm only; M = insigne on left upper arm only.
* T = chrome/silver stripes on both upper arms; C = no stripes on upper arms; M = no stripes on upper arms.
* T = has windscreen wipers; C = no windscreen wipers; M = has windscreen wipers.
* T = top of forearm is black with 2 blue "tubes" and 1 silver "button"; C = forearms entirely red w/ 2 small rectangles & 1 triangle; M = predominantly red forearms with 2 small rectangles & 1 triangle in yellow.
* T = forearms are recessed below (to give room for the front wheels); C = no recession on forearms; M = no recession.
* T = no true waist section, has entirely chrome front bumper; C = has true waist section w/ yellow decos and blue pubic basin; M = has true waist section w/ yellow decos and blue pubic basin.
* T = chrome thighs; C = chrome thighs; M = grey thighs.
* T = all wheels are visible; C = all wheels are not visible; M = all wheels are concealed.
* T = blue stripes along sides of trailer; C = no blue stripes on trailer; M = blue stripes on trailer.
* T = blue support struts for combat deck; C = blue support struts; M = black support struts.
* T = chrome/silver stripes along front and sides of truck cab; C = no stripes on cab; M = silver stripes on cab.

On the whole I would say that MP10's robot mode is very much biased towards the cartoon rather than G1 toy-accuracy, whereas the truck mode is more G1 accurate. Obviously MP44 is going for cartoon likeness in both modes, as is the intention of the toy (and is also reflected in a greater level of complexity and a much higher price point). I personally prefer MP10 as I prefer toy-accuracy and I prefer the more realistic looking truck mode ('cept for the robot legs, I know, I know). I don't think that any of the MP Convoys are necessarily better or worse than they other; I think that they're all great for their respective prices. It's like comparing the same character made as a Deluxe, Voyager and Leader Class figure... obviously the dearer toys will offer more, but they also cost more. There's nothing wrong with the cheaper versions per se. Obviously Takara(TOMY) can afford to do more with a toy when they have a bigger budget to work with. Bear in mind that MP44 is, as of now, the single most expensive Transformer ever (I know that HasLab Unicron will eclipse this, but right now, MP44 is the most expensive TF).
https://i.ibb.co/vdjXsn0/MP-convoy-v3-01.jpg
(RRP)
MP01 = 10290JPY = $150
MP10 = 22000JPY = $326 (214% dearer than MP01)
MP44 = 50000JPY = $742 (227% dearer than MP10 or 486% dearer than MP01)
P.S.: And I'm speaking as someone who was initially unimpressed (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/12144-Toy-Review-Masterpiece-MP-10-Convoy-ver-2-0?p=271760#post271760) by MP10 (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php/12144-Toy-Review-Masterpiece-MP-10-Convoy-ver-2-0?p=493842#post493842). I personally still find MP01 to be the best value for money; I felt that MP01 was well worth the asking price, whereas I find MP10 and MP44 are good if you can get them for below full RRP but I don't feel that either of them are worth paying full quid for.