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STL
14th November 2008, 03:45 AM
The Soapbox V: What makes a good Transformer?

My apologies for the months of absence. In recent times, I’ve been inundated by a lot of personal, academic (no, honestly) and professional commitments, not to mention the fact that I’ve been swept astray by the wave that is Lego. But hopefully I can maintain a more regular schedule. Exams loom as does the spring carnival. Anyway, without much further ado, let’s turn to the question of this column’s preponderance…

What makes a good Transformer?

That’s the eternal question, isn’t it? You toil away for your hard earned and after the requisite necessities and other deductions, you take that bit of discretionary expenditure and heap it all away on this figure you’ve been waiting for what seems like an eternity to get. And then you have to ask yourself: was it worth it?

At first instance, this is a topic matter seems rather elementary. Each collector should be able to make the determination as to whether or not a toy is good by their standards. However, if one peruses the countless boards devoted to TFs, one would find that the level of commentary frequently is dislocated with little real justification as to why a toy is good or, for lack of a better word, crap. The whole validation of a Transformer seems entirely intuitive at times. Perhaps it is a case of the fact that a figure speaks for itself but what this column attempts to do is dig deeper. It aims to provide some solid set of criteria as to what makes a good figure.

A. Price
As simple as this seems, I believe that this is a key determinative factor that affects the minds of many yet there isn’t always that express acknowledgement of it when comes to rating a figure. Golden Phoenix made mention of something he termed “buyer’s remorse” when referring to the fact that invariably many of those who purchase figures at a premium to review them before they are even released tend to rate the toys too positively so as to compensate for the fact they forked out more for it. I’m inclined to extend this a bit further. I’m sure you’ll agree that at some subconscious level that any figure we buy we rate with reference to what we paid for it. If we paid an Ultra price, we certainly didn’t want to get a legend. Case in point, Classics 2.0/Universe Silverbolt.

Price, in my mind, is negatively correlated with enjoyment. Generally speaking of course. The more you pay for something, the more you expect out of it. So price to some extent defines your expectations. And if it fails to meet those expectations, you’ll find yourself condemning the toy for its inadequacies. While this may seem self-evident, the point I hope to make is that too often the issue of price is buried under the myriad complaints that collectors have. Its invisible hand operates to affect the judgment of a collector w/out ever really being obvious.

The present exception is collectors who take pride in rare and pricey toys, the ones that you’d associate with selling an arm and a leg for. Or alternatively, what I call the “novelty” factor. This segment though is a relative small part of the collecting community and I’d be going too far to say that all of us are immune to this exception. There is a degree of satisfaction we draw at times from possessing something pricey that others do not have. That may not be a primary reason for our enjoyment of the said Transformer but they undeniably do play a part.

B. Nostalgia
I think this speaks for itself. For the faithful, whether indoctrinated into Transformers via G1 or Beast Wars, nostalgic elements always warm a collector’s heart and rekindles that youthful spirit.

C. Character Appeal
Again, fairly obvious. There’s nothing that beats a fan favourite. Done right, they become the absolute must-have of a collection. Done poorly, they are still whipped up just because of who they are.

D. Gimmicks/Weapons
Gimmicks: Electronic or otherwise. They aren’t necessarily greeted fondly by the fanbase. This is in large part due to the fact that there is a common view among the fandom that they detract from the quality of a Transformer. Recently, many of the Movie gimmicks were horrible. Some of the Animated gimmicks just don’t work IE. Bumblebee. Some of the Animated gimmicks are so easily stuffed up. Voyager Prime. Some though like Animated Grimlock’s sword are very clever. It’s not very often but I’d say that generally to the collector they represent a negative.

Weapons are either annoying or not. Some love the abundance of them. Some hate them with a vengeance because of lack of stowability or just how ridiculous they appear. Then there are the odd ones that are just striking because of their uniqueness. There is a proviso though. Stowability surprisingly sometimes cures the dislike of a weapon where it forms a feature of the alt mode or is actually part of the robot.

E. Scale
This one is always a certainty to ruffle the feathers of the collector base. And it works on two fronts. When we talk about scale, do we mean the scale of the vehicles relative to each other? Or do we mean the scale of their robot modes? Or a combination of both? It’s not an easy issue. In some instances, robot mode scale is the only relevant factor whereas in others both might be.

Take for instance, the G1 minibots. It’s no secret that Powerglide and Cosmos are woefully undersized for their scale alt modes yet I think there’s a predilection to having them all in a small class size because of nostalgia. But should an A-10 jet not logically have a larger robot mode and alt mode than the G1 cars, Optimus included? Why then is there this predilection to having all the minibots in the legends class/scout class in the Classics 2.0/Universe? So, yes, the matter of scale is not exactly an easy one to navigate as one first would imagine. Yet too often do we see it bandied around with little contextual discussion.

Certain segments will bemoan the inadequacy of a Transformer’s size. Others will bluntly, and sometimes impolitely, point out that this issue has been prevalent since G1. There’s a number of interesting reasons for this but I won’t endeavour to explore them here though I do hope to explore the matter in a later Soapbox. Scale a very divisive criteria and it’s good to know which side you’re on. Not because you need to take a side on the issue but because knowing where scale sits relative to other criteria helps you to understand what you look for in a Transformer.

F. Transformation
There to me are two dimensions to this. The first is the degree of complexity.

Complexity in my mind refers to the process of the transformation. Complexity though does not mean just mean make the transformation so damn hard that no one can figure it out. I’m thinking of the BT-10/Alternator Grimlock here. The toy just does not make intuitive sense. The transformation of the chest is very complex but it is not enjoyable b/c there is no coherent logic to it. Even once you have figured it out, it’s not an air of satisfaction that you breath, it’s sigh of relief. And that in my mind is a poor transformation. A good transformation can be complex but it must be intuitive. It must leave you feeling like you should have seen that groove you overlooked or that clip you missed three steps into the transformation. The issue of complexity though can be very divisive in itself. There are different tolerances among the fan base as to what level of complexity is sufficient before they are driven to frustration and knowing this is an important part for any collector because it helps guide you in know what you’re looking for in a Transformer which will ultimately allow you to better assess your enjoyment of a figure.

The second, and not so significant limb, is originality. Sometimes when you find a new process or transformation, such as most recently Classics 2.0/Universe Ironhide, There are a lot of original movements and folds that just astound you and it is that kind of magical discovery that brings that little bit of glee to your merry heart. In my mind, that is what makes that first transformation of a new Transformer such an important experience and almost sacrosanct. It is your single opportunity to potentially experience something new and be fascinated by it. Not all may feel that way though, especially those who inspect instructions first or watch video reviews first. That’s not to say that they do not enjoy the new leap in engineering but they just do not see the discovery of originality as important.

G. Realism
This aspect of the fanbase is largely centred around TFM, BT/Alternator and upcoming Alternity lines. It is a fairly broad category as the degree to which each fan is willing to suspend their sense of reality is vastly different. In my experiences, before I had returned to collecting and I happened to come across two blokes chatting giddily about Alternator Meister. On reflection, they were not conventional collectors. What primarily motivated them was the realistic nature of the toy. The fact that it looked like a real car, the RX-8, that made the Transformer so cool in their eyes. These were strong pure realists. Their collecting in large part had to do with the fact that modern engineering can take a real object and translate it into a robot action figure. And there’s no denying how cool that is. At the other end of the spectrum we’d have things like Animated which really just do not cut it for some people because they don’t come even close to emulating something that is real.

H. Articulation
The core of Transformers is that they are objects that transform into sentient robots. Their ability to retain articulation fitting of a robot go a long way to one’s enjoyment. It means you are essentially getting two toys for the price of one. That said, articulation often involves a trade off that not all fans feel comfortable with. Sometimes articulation may compromise the durability or transformation of a toy. And to understand where you stand on that trade off it’s good to know where articulation sits relative to the other criteria.

I. Durability
There’s a certain utility to having a toy that is not flimsy. Not having parts that are loose or springy. How important is this? I’m not really sure but that’s really up to you. Some do not like TFM Ironhide b/c his shoulders/chest are so springy. Others, myself included, find it an amazing and unique little aesthetic. Again, it’s a matter of where you sit on the spectrum but knowing where you sit helps you to appreciate what you’re looking for. Are you looking for solidity all over? Around key joints such as arms and legs? Is it okay for decorative, body kibble like wings and shields? Or does it not matter to you at all?

J. Paint Applications
In recent times, this has become a rather significant issue. Historically, however, paint applications have not been as large a concern. The Unicron Trilogy did not really offer much complaint but since the Movie there has been a raucous undercurrent of discontent with the quality of paint applications. Some may argue that this is only an issue because it was accentuated by the fact Henkei’s offerings are so much more attractive. However, during the Unicron Trilogy, the difference in paint applications between Takara and Hasbro were not so stark. As an owner of many of the Takara and Hasbro versions of Cybertron/Galaxy Force and Energon/Superlink, it generally came down to a matter of preference – not superiority. This is no longer the case. What we find with both Classics 2.0/Universe and Animated, and before that TFM, is a distinct lack of attention to the quality of paint applications. Mismatches in colours are so stark that they go a long way to diminishing one’s utility of a toy. A discussion of why this is happening is beyond the scope of this Soapbox but it is worthy of note that it is increasingly becoming an issue of not just preference but, worryingly, quality which will unmistakably impact on how much that certain Transformer takes your fancy.


As you can see, the list of criteria isn’t a short list. Hence that is perhaps why it’s all a rather intuitive process which most collectors go through in judging a toy. What this instalment of the Soapbox has hopefully done though is encourage a more conscious appreciation of those factors.

Certainly whilst the above criteria go some way to assessing the quality of a Transformer, it would be remiss to claim there is some system of universality. Of course there may be unanimity at times about the judgement of a toy but more often then not there are different segments of collectors who place differing weights on the above criteria and hence reach different conclusions. That is why Transformer toys are often received differently and that in itself is what makes collecting them such a delight. It doesn't hurt though to improve our appreciation about which of those factors influence our preferences now, does it?

STL
14th November 2008, 03:54 AM
I should add that if there's any other criteria that anyone reckons I've missed, please do say.

And I'm sorry about the lack of photos too. I actually had planned to slip a few in but my fatigue and just downright desire to get this done after having it half done for several months meant I didn't. :o

kurdt_the_goat
14th November 2008, 04:04 AM
I just want to say.. even tho i like doing the odd review, and certainly reading up on reviews.. part of me thinks the over-analysis of a figure just saps the enjoyment out of it. When we were kids, we might have had favourites, and some obvious flaws might have been noticed, but generally speaking you'd have fun regardless. In looking at a new figure i try and detach myself a bit from analysing it, so i can feel that 'kid' enjoyment again, but it's hard... i think just a factor of growing up!

Also, i think the advancements in toys over the years have been so great, that so much is taken for granted. It really irks me when people appear to pass judgement on a toy well before they have it in hand. The same thing has been going on forever in the video game industry - you'd think that with graphics as amazing as they are today, no one would have anything to complain about - but that is SO far from the truth. The slightest bit of slowdown or blurry texture, and months of some designers hard work is brandished CRAP! I think if i was a game or toy designer, i wouldn't be able to read the vast majority of reviews for stuff i designed, due to so much being taken for granted!

Paulbot
14th November 2008, 09:27 AM
I would add "uniqueness". Sometimes a Transformer toy is good because it transforms into something so different to everything else or transforms in a unique way.

And how do you know Cosmos's alt mode is out of scale. Have you seen a real flying saucer to compare? :p I guess you mean compared to the cartoon (in which Blaster fit inside Cosmos and then Cosmos transformed and was shorter than Blaster :rolleyes:) and so I wonder if wanting a toy that resembles the fictional character is an aspect of Nostalgia, Character Appeal, Realism or it's own criteria. Many Animated toys IMO would be good Transformers because of the way they capture the look of characters in the Animated cartoon. The appeal of Classics toys is similar for many people.

kup
14th November 2008, 12:00 PM
Let's not forget Hoist driving Huffer!

http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Image:MakeHoistHuffer.jpg

Pulse
14th November 2008, 02:51 PM
I just want to say.. even tho i like doing the odd review, and certainly reading up on reviews.. part of me thinks the over-analysis of a figure just saps the enjoyment out of it. When we were kids, we might have had favourites, and some obvious flaws might have been noticed, but generally speaking you'd have fun regardless. In looking at a new figure i try and detach myself a bit from analysing it, so i can feel that 'kid' enjoyment again, but it's hard... i think just a factor of growing up!


Totally agree :). Figures from each era were cool in their own context (be it the nostalgia factor of G1's, the TF-reawakening that is BW, the complex engineering that is Alt/Binaltech/MPs, the nostalgia & articulation that is Classics etc. ) but overall - I luv nearly all of the lines :) (excluding 6 inch titanium which IMO was an overall fail... :rolleyes:).

SilverDragon
14th November 2008, 06:54 PM
Interesting.

I'd like to add to 'transformation' that a really good transformation can be one which results in two modes which you would have no idea transformed.

Example: TFA Blackarachnia. Also, Prowl, from the same series, but I haven't played with him, so I'll elaborate on BA instead.

Well, the visual features of the spider mode are a dead giveaway as to showing that it's a Transformer, but the transformation itself works so well and results in a startlingly show-accurate robot mode. It also doesn't leave anything just hanging around uselessly-the spider legs on the back look like they belong there (instead of, say, sticking them all on the arms) and the spider pedipalps (little purple fangs) form the robot waist.

Paulbot
14th November 2008, 08:15 PM
I would add "uniqueness". Sometimes a Transformer toy is good because it transforms into something so different to everything else or transforms in a unique way.

And thinking more on this: when a toy's not unique (say yet another Transformer with the Gobot/Spychanger transformation) that hurts the toy too IMO

GoktimusPrime
14th November 2008, 09:12 PM
Three words: value for money. ;)

Give me a well designed Mini-Con over a poorly designed Supreme Class TF any day.

SilverDragon
14th November 2008, 09:23 PM
I would add "uniqueness". Sometimes a Transformer toy is good because it transforms into something so different to everything else or transforms in a unique way.


I agree. Why else am I drooling over Archadis/Airraptor on online stores declaring to myself that one day I'll own a version of the mold?

Golden Phoenix
14th November 2008, 09:54 PM
Three words: value for money. ;)

Give me a well designed Mini-Con over a poorly designed Supreme Class TF any day.

Ditto

I think there needs to be a balance between Nostalgia and Newness.
While having Nostalgia is good in some cases, we need new characters and designs to keep it fresh. Otherwise we would keep getting the same characters over and over again.
I think changing things up a bit is a good thing. Like for example, the design style Animated has. Like for Grimlock. He has loads of Nostalgic value through his design and character references, but he also has balance because of the style he has been done in

lcz128
15th November 2008, 09:07 AM
yep, love reading these everytime it comes out :D

Personlly I think Nostalgia and Newness shold be balanced as GP said :) New is as important as there is nostalgic characters - like how I'm really looking forward to drift! :D

dirge
15th November 2008, 09:43 PM
I agree with most of your points, STL. I'm not quite so sure about the last one - I don't disagree with you, but I think it's beyond the scope of good/crap, more a case of having to sift through to find the best quality paintjob. It does have an impact on satisfaction, though.

One thing I'd add to the transformation: cleverness/elegance. Originality & complexity are important, but as SilverDragon pointed out, a simple transformation that's _clever_, and makes good use of something you might otherwise to expect to end up as kibble has a big impact. Blackarachnia & Prowl (the two toys he mentioned) remain the two Animated toys which impress me (and are amongst my small Animated collection) because both have very elegant transformations.

I agree with the "buyers remorse" thing. There are so many overly positive reviews out there (and not just of TFs), and reading between the lines you can see the reviewer is afraid to admit the subject matter probably wasn't worth what they paid for it.

jaydisc
16th November 2008, 01:34 AM
A. Price
I don't think this affects my ratings.

B. Nostalgia
Yes, this can be a benefit, but as GP & LCZ said, change/variety/newness is at least of equal standing.

C. Character Appeal
Fiction-imposed criteria. I'm not really into fiction (a bit too child targeted for my taste), so this bears no weight for me.

D. Weapons/Gimmicks
This is pretty far-ranging. While well executed gimmicks can enhance a toy, an ill-conceived or unnecessary gimmick (most electronics), especially when provided at something else's sacrifice (weight/balance), can really annoy.

E. Scale
Another fiction-imposed criteria that has little to no bearing on me.

F. Transformation
F. Transformation
F. Transformation
This is what it's all about. And I was waiting for someone to mention "elegance". I'm a huge fan of all three aforementioned angles: Complexity, Originality and Elegance. I'm here to transform. Everything else is WAAAAAAYYYYY secondary.

G. Realism
As I've said in other places, I don't mind a futuristic or alien alt mode, and I don't think those two styles conflict with realism. What annoys me is when we're given an alt mode that is a badly executed attempt to be something we know. For lack of a better example, Cybertron Soundwave / Universe Blaster.

H. Articulation
This is something I care about, but way behind F.

I. Durability and J. Paint Applications.
While both of these do contribute to my greater enjoyment of a toy, I think it would take a substantial failing of both for it to lessen my enjoyment.

STL
26th November 2008, 01:00 AM
Three words: value for money. ;)

Give me a well designed Mini-Con over a poorly designed Supreme Class TF any day.

Well that's kinda the whole point of this Soapbox. To try and help us figure out what is value for money to us.


I would add "uniqueness". Sometimes a Transformer toy is good because it transforms into something so different to everything else or transforms in a unique way.


I agree that it's definitely of benefit but I couldn't see where to put this and feel that its somewhat unfair as how do you compare one car is unique compared to another? Its a very hard relative measure b/c BB08 is very different to RiD Prowl but I find both to be unique.


A. Price
I don't think this affects my ratings.


Liar! Or do u need your GPS to find the truth? :p



I. Durability and J. Paint Applications.
While both of these do contribute to my greater enjoyment of a toy, I think it would take a substantial failing of both for it to lessen my enjoyment.

Come on, you know you love durability.



I'm a huge fan of all three aforementioned angles: Complexity, Originality and Elegance. I'm here to transform.



I agree with most of your points, STL. I'm not quite so sure about the last one - I don't disagree with you, but I think it's beyond the scope of good/crap, more a case of having to sift through to find the best quality paintjob. It does have an impact on satisfaction, though.

One thing I'd add to the transformation: cleverness/elegance. Originality & complexity are important, but as SilverDragon pointed out, a simple transformation that's _clever_, and makes good use of something you might otherwise to expect to end up as kibble has a big impact. Blackarachnia & Prowl (the two toys he mentioned) remain the two Animated toys which impress me (and are amongst my small Animated collection) because both have very elegant transformations.


So with elegance, how exactly would you guys define it? I'm with it and like the idea of it completely but am not sure which character fits the bill. With TFA Blackarachnia, I find her transformation to be terribly simplistic and not elegant at all.

And which toys would you say are elegant?

Geminii
27th November 2008, 03:13 AM
Price - not really a factor. It might affect whether I'd _buy_ a given toy, but not my assessment of how good the toy itself is.

Nostalgia - not a huge biggie for me. I'm cool with new names and characters. Homages are pleasant to see, but I'll buy a good engineering design over a cruddy one no matter what the color scheme or head mold.

Character appeal - only right down at the cheap end. It's only worth a couple of dollars each way to me, and then only if I _really_ like the character.

Gimmicks/Weapons - don't like 'em, generally. I take the batteries out of my toys, hate 98% of auto-transformations or "unlock using another piece" designs, and in general anything which deliberately makes it hard to manually access some aspect of the toy. I prefer built-in weapons purely because of the logic of it, and am not a fan of most detachable (and therefore losable) accessories, although I'll grudgingly accept missiles and handheld weapons as they don't detract too heavily from the toy when they go missing.

Scale - doesn't bug me, but then again I don't tend to play with multiple toys together, pose them, do photocomics etc.

Transformation - here's the meat of it. A transformation has to feel _satisfying_, and exactly what that means can vary from toy to toy and person to person. Too simple and there's no feeling of accomplishment. Too complex and there's no joy from the arduous task. Too cosmetic and it feels more like a Sentai figure (magical transform!) than a Transformer. Not cosmetic enough and you get GoBots. There's also elegance, which is the ability to move from form A to form B with exactly the required amount of complexity and not one bit more. Elegance is an art and one of the joys of good design.

Realism - not so much regarding whether an altmode looks like a currently available real-life vehicle, but whether it looks like it _could_ be real. Detailing and color is a part of this, but there are also macrodesign issues. Is a flying altmode a smooth sweep of aerodynamic lines or a brick with winglets and a nosecone? Does a ground mode have a capable set of wheels or three rollerskates and a pegleg? Could the altmode be easily imagined to be able to do certain jobs better than the robot mode, or is it something like a wheelbarrow or Rubik's Cube?

Articulation - not absolutely necessary (hey, I collected G1), but a welcome addition if it's there. Excellent articulation is worth a couple of extra dollars - look at how many people were happy with Classics Mirage.

Durability - for me, not a factor above "Will it stand on a shelf for ten years and maybe be transformed a couple dozen times without spontaneously disintegrating or parts falling off?", as I don't buy for kids and I don't smash my Transformers together while going "pew! pew! pew!" That said, I appreciate slightly heavier/thicker plastic, especially on moving parts.

Paint apps - I'm not bugged by them. As long as the character aspects are recognisable and it doesn't look like they lost a paintball tournament, I'm OK with it.

jaydisc
27th November 2008, 09:56 AM
Liar! Or do u need your GPS to find the truth? :p

I have TF that I've paid ridiculous amounts for that I love (anything from Botcon '07, some Henkei exclusives) and similar toys that I got for a steal that I also love (Universe Springer, much of Animated). So I don't think price affects enjoyment in my eyes.


Come on, you know you love durability.

Absolutely! But I'm not as inversely affected if it's not present.


So with elegance, how exactly would you guys define it? I'm with it and like the idea of it completely but am not sure which character fits the bill. With TFA Blackarachnia, I find her transformation to be terribly simplistic and not elegant at all.

And which toys would you say are elegant?

This is a great question, as already there are differences. To me, Animated BA is as elegant as Movie Scorponok.

On a quick perusal of my cabinet, here are a few:

Animated Bulkhead Voyager - If transformed in the right sequence, it's quick, mostly automatic and everything locks into place.
Cybertron/Movie Mudflap
Classics Mirage/Prime/Megatron/Seekers - all simple and effective.

After writing that, I might migrate my term from Elegant to Effective. The figures I'd refer to as Elegant/Effective have always been on the simpler, but clever side. Thus, I'm more down with effective now.

EDIT:

Actually, this is perfect:


There's also elegance, which is the ability to move from form A to form B with exactly the required amount of complexity and not one bit more. Elegance is an art and one of the joys of good design.

STL
28th November 2008, 12:20 AM
There's also elegance, which is the ability to move from form A to form B with exactly the required amount of complexity and not one bit more. Elegance is an art and one of the joys of good design.
t.

That's a great nailing of elegance that I can completely follow. I'd been thinking about it but little had come to mind.

And a very insightful post too. Lots of good stuff in there

Geminii
28th November 2008, 06:28 PM
I'd been thinking about it a bit more since the advent of the Alternators. For where the car panels end up in robot mode, there's just far, far too many moving parts on some of the designs.

This isn't to say that minimalism equals perfection per se: toys like Throttlebots and Firecons (and some Minicons) have very few parts but their modes suffer for it.

Perhaps the definition should be that elegance is the minimal number of parts or movements required to achieve a given effect, and is more of a factor as the effect in question becomes more awesome.

Perhaps there's some kind of awesomeness-to-item ratio...

kurdt_the_goat
28th November 2008, 06:53 PM
I think a transformation is most clever when you have to move X piece here *while* moving Y there. It's more common and comparatively simple to just move X piece here, before you can move Y piece there.

Kyle
28th November 2008, 09:04 PM
I'd been thinking about it a bit more since the advent of the Alternators. For where the car panels end up in robot mode, there's just far, far too many moving parts on some of the designs.

Transformation should be FUN. Transforming a BT or AT just feels like a chore... (with constant fear of scratches or damages.) I see them more as collectors pieces rather than "real toys". :(

TheDirtyDigger
29th November 2008, 12:50 PM
Transformation should be FUN :(

Definitely. I gave my boy who's 4 my Macca's Tf's (Armada, Energon, Animated) for a bit of fun and soon he had his sisters timing how long it took for him to transform them. At last check he was down to 2 and a half seconds on Armada Prime.
He's a beast.

jgon2098
29th November 2008, 01:01 PM
the box

Rampage
29th November 2008, 02:43 PM
the box

lol

being made between 1984-1987 helps :):p

Golden Phoenix
29th November 2008, 02:52 PM
the box

Yes, we all love a good box

Geminii
30th November 2008, 09:33 PM
I think a transformation is most clever when you have to move X piece here *while* moving Y there. It's more common and comparatively simple to just move X piece here, before you can move Y piece there.

I'd almost see "X requires simultaenous Y" as a design failure, myself. Then again, I don't like most automorphs (or at least the ones where doing it manually will break it).

blackie
30th November 2008, 09:35 PM
Yes, we all love a good box

i most certainly do ;P

GoktimusPrime
30th November 2008, 09:37 PM
Most Hasbro boxes have sucked since 1995/6 IMO. (-_-)

TheDirtyDigger
30th November 2008, 10:08 PM
Most Hasbro boxes have sucked since 1995/6 IMO. (-_-)

I think the Cybertron series ones are very pleasing (although would be better if they were actually box shape) as well as Universe 2.0.

Lint
30th November 2008, 11:26 PM
I have to mention Durability. I remember a time when breaking a toy was an inevitability.

These days I find transformers a lot more durable and 'fool-proof'. While this is partly due to advances in plastics I have to commend the engineers behind modern toys for their design. It's a blessing for both collectors and children.

GoktimusPrime
1st December 2008, 09:28 AM
I think the Cybertron series ones are very pleasing (although would be better if they were actually box shape) as well as Universe 2.0.
Compared to Galaxy Force and Henkei? (language differences aside)

TheDirtyDigger
1st December 2008, 09:32 AM
Compared to Galaxy Force and Henkei? (language differences aside)

Yeah Henkeis are nice but not as nice as Universe/Classics 2.0.
Galaxy Force to my untrained, Western-bred eyes really look like KO boxes to me. I'd imagine they look completely different to someone with an understanding of the Japanese script.

GoktimusPrime
1st December 2008, 09:50 AM
Visual/cosmetic differences aside, one thing that I much prefer about Takara's packaging over Hasbro's is when it comes to carded figures; Takara's carded TFs usually have bubbles/blisters that can be removed without damaging the card because they're not glued on! They have wrap-around tabs which are sealed with sticky tape. Once you cut through the tape, you can remove the bubble to access the toy. If you want to display your figure on card, you can stick the bubble back on. You cannot do this with Hasbro's figures because their bubbles are glued on and you have to either tear or cut them open with a knife - and even then, you are permanently damaging the bubble so there's no chance of putting the toy back inside.

And I cannot see how Hasbro's glue-on bubbles are necessarily cheaper or more cost-saving that Takara's. And the cost of using more tape would be negated by money saved on not using glue! As for preventing shop-lifting, again, a well taped up bubble wouldn't be on par with a glued-on bubble in terms of deterring theft. A shop lifter would have to break through all that tape to get to the toy - which is what they would have to do with a boxed toy anyway.

I should ask this question in the Hasbro Q&A thread.

P.S.: Then in 2005 Hasbro started using half-glued bubbles (I first noticed them on the Star Wars Episode III Revenge of the Sith toys)... where the sides of the bubble wrap around but the top and bottom are still glued on - which entirely defeats the purpose of the wrap-around tabs on the sides in the first place, so why bother doing it?!?

jaydisc
1st December 2008, 10:53 AM
While Takara's packaging is definitely easier to preserve after removing the figures, Henkei packaging looks like Loud KO packaging. Hasbro Classics, Universe and Animated are superior in aesthetics and design, especially for the MISBers among us.

GoktimusPrime
1st December 2008, 11:40 AM
Aesthetics is a difficult thing to argue since it's very much based on people's personal tastes, hence why I decided to sway toward the line of practicality. Another thing that bugs me about Hasbro packaging is the immense waste of space/cardboard... they're so bloody needlessly oversized. As a result I throw out most of my Hasbro boxes. I know other people choose to flatten them, although some of the Universe boxes look hard to flatten. It's such a cheap way to make the toy look big on shelves - but you can easily see that 50% of the box content is air... :/

jaydisc
1st December 2008, 04:01 PM
hence why I decided to sway toward the line of practicality.

Another area of Takara fail. Henkei deluxes cannot be displayed sideways.

GoktimusPrime
1st December 2008, 06:13 PM
What do you mean by "displayed sideways"? I'm guessing you mean either:
1/ The toy inside the bubble is displayed at a diagonal angle, rather than perfectly horizontally or vertically.
2/ The packaging cannot be displayed on its side, front or back.

If so, to that I would say:
1/ Carded Universe figures are also packaged-displayed at a 45 degree angle.
2/ Henkei figures can be displayed on its side, front or back. Although I have no idea why anyone would want to display a carded figure like this.

...this sounds more like an issue of visual aesthetics rather than functionality though, unless I have interpreted your statement incorrectly.

jaydisc
1st December 2008, 07:42 PM
Dictionary.com defines "displayed" as:

To exhibit ostentatiously; show off.

And "sideways" as:

with a side foremost or facing to the side

HENKEI
Nothing to see here (and come to realize it, a bit wonky. They don't really stay level):

http://lindalane.com/temporary/tf/DSC04522.jpg

UNIVERSE and ANIMATED:
MUCH better.

http://lindalane.com/temporary/tf/DSC04523.jpg
http://lindalane.com/temporary/tf/DSC04524.jpg


Although I have no idea why anyone would want to display a carded figure like this.

As someone that seemingly does not keep anything MISB or have packaging on display, I did not expect you to.


...this sounds more like an issue of visual aesthetics rather than functionality though, unless I have interpreted your statement incorrectly.

Yes, I did say aesthetically:


Hasbro Classics, Universe and Animated are superior in aesthetics and design, especially for the MISBers among us.

However, upon closer inspection, the Henkei deluxes have a varying forward lean as well.

dirge
1st December 2008, 08:02 PM
I don't see too many wanting to display their stuff sideways...

jacksplatt11
1st December 2008, 08:14 PM
Dictionary.com defines "displayed" as:

To exhibit ostentatiously; show off.

And "sideways" as:

with a side foremost or facing to the side



Haha, Nice one, I get it... ;):D

loophole
1st December 2008, 08:29 PM
i plan on displaying all of my animated with the side box art showing with the toy in front of it ive done it to a couple and it looks quite neat :)

jaydisc
1st December 2008, 08:36 PM
I don't see too many wanting to display their stuff sideways...

Since the advent of Animated, I disagree. I've even seen many acquisitions posts displaying Animated and Universe as such. It's nice to have a choice :p. To display them front-on would take 3x the width and 1/3 the depth, not really optimized for your common bookshelf or shelf as so many of us display on. Maybe one day when I have 3x the space and I thirst for no more figures, I could do what The Damned does and put pegs in the walls and display them as such, but even then, while it is admittedly subjective, Henkei packaging still looks like loud KO packaging to me, with the effortless monotone exclusives looking even more so.

dirge
1st December 2008, 08:43 PM
And then there's a large percentage who _open_ the toys d:

jaydisc
1st December 2008, 08:52 PM
Hey! This is a packaging discussion! :p (In the What Makes a Good Transformer thread! :D)

EDIT: And there's nothing to stop anyone from displaying the packaging _as well_ as opening the toys. d:

dirge
1st December 2008, 11:39 PM
Hey! This is a packaging discussion! :p (In the What Makes a Good Transformer thread! :D)


Yes, and since you didn't get my hints, I'm not going to hint it anymore.

[b]Please keep this discussion on topic.[/board staff]

Packaging plays a part, but this thread has a much broader focus than the subtleties of packaging. If you want to delve into that, you're welcome to start a separate discussion about it. ;)

roller
2nd December 2008, 12:01 AM
. ;)

hey fellah


winking at me all night from acroos the disco floor

right back atcha

;)


what makes a good tf? This sounds like a non fan question,your not a non fan are you sir? :confused:



:D nah, good representation in toy form, similiar to fiction appearances helps, poseability for all modern era figures, gimmicks that don't dumb down the toy

dirge
2nd December 2008, 10:49 AM
:eek:

winking at me all night from acroos the disco floor

right back atcha


Score!!11! ... I mean... whatever do they put in the water over there? :eek:

Pulse
2nd December 2008, 10:56 AM
Something funny in the red cordial? :D