Is my G1 Ravage KO? Yet another suspect ebay sale

[Eruntalon]

This arrived today in the mail. The seller claims that it is a 100% genuine vintage G1 Ravage, but I now suspect that it is reissue or KO. Also came with the two chrome missile launchers in immaculate condition (a little too immaculate).

Ravage himself has no scratches on him at all - a detail I couldn't see in the original ebay listing. Any details that look like scratches in the photos are just a result of the flash picking up dust and tiny imperfections in the plastic.

The date stamp on one side of the tail reads (c)HASBRO '83 followed by a circle mark, and on the other (c)TAKARA '83. The paint quality around the text is low and you can barely make out the words MICRO CASSETTE, although I'm not sure if the paint job is meant to be like this. Pay close attention to the rub sign, which looks to me to be machined off of a computer since the edges are jaggy and pixelated. The rub sign is also different from those on my other G1 toys; it has a silver backing but it's more of a matte finish and not glossy, but it still seems to work.

Links:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav1small.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav1.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav2small.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav2.jpg)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav3small.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/eruntalon/transformers/rav3.jpg)

[gamblor916]

Definitely a KO, the rub sign and centre sticker gives it away.

[kurdt_the_goat]

Which seller did you purchase from?
IMO the stickers alone don't confirm it as fake; they could simply be reproduction stickers... maybe.

[kup]

Hold on, it may be the the reissue Ravage from the 'Classics' Soundwave with the Soundblaster chest.

When I get home I will have a look at the Ravage that came with that toy to confirm it.

[Eruntalon]

Original listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310100780826


If it can be confirmed that it is a reissue, regardless of what packaging it came from, then I'm going to endeavor to get my money refunded.

[kup]

Original listing:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310100780826


If it can be confirmed that it is a reissue, regardless of what packaging it came from, then I'm going to endeavor to get my money refunded.

Yeah I suspect that it may be a KO based on that listing. I hate to say it but based on my own experience, I am very distrustful of Australian dealers. Too many times have I seen them on Ebay trying to misrepresent toys and I have seen too many of them at the Parra fair doing exactly the same thing.

I will still check my reissue Ravage but regardless, this toy is certainly not vintage as the seller claims.

[GoktimusPrime]

Here's what legit Ravages look like...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/ravage_comparison.jpg

[kup]

The KO will likely look like the Hasbro Reissue Ravage. It may actually be indistiguishable from it unless its made of a weaker/softer plastic.

[Sky Shadow]

Maybe ask Jay about this seller. He wrote the following on his feedback page:

"Seller lied about inclusion of Allspark. He also sells KOs. Avoid at all costs.

Buyer: jaydisc...

13-May-08 19:02

-- (#310037886677)"

[Pulse]

Hold on, it may be the the reissue Ravage from the 'Classics' Soundwave with the Soundblaster chest.

When I get home I will have a look at the Ravage that came with that toy to confirm it.

That's what I was thinking. Eruntalon, Have you compared it to this (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/classics/battle-ravage/1167/)?

[Eruntalon]

That's what I was thinking. Eruntalon, Have you compared it to this (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/classics/battle-ravage/1167/)?

Yes, I have looked at multiple ravage galleries for the different issues on seibertron.com. What I can deduce from these images is that on the Ravage I recently purchased the word JAPAN is slightly cut off on the letter J by the edge of the plastic because the font is fatter, which seems to match the font on reissue Ravage.

[jaydisc]

I can't judge by your Ravage, but toys_magician is a notorious KO dealer. Sorry :(

[kup]

I checked my Ravage (which is the Hasbro reissue one) and yeah it looks like yours is a KO.

Sorry.

[liegeprime]

Erm KO just by the looks of the shots you posted, sorry.:(. Hope you didnt pay much for im

[canofwhoopass_87]

Man it's getting harder and harder to collect vintage figures without fearing the slap of a KO. I recently viewed a few comparison photos of a very high quality KO g1 devastator and an original one...they were virtually identical in every way. If I had seen that KO as a $60BIN I wouldn't have hesistated.

Pays to be extra cautious these days :cool:

[GoktimusPrime]

Leave negative rating and report to eBay. Selling KOs on eBay is a violation of their terms of service (as it classifies as sales of "counterfeit goods").

[Eruntalon]

Toys_magician is going to be a pain about it and I need to make my case.

What are the key aspects of this KO ravage that make it stand out as non-original? I can list the font placement on the painted side as different, the fatter font, the quality of the rub symbol. Does the original ravage include the date stamps on the tail that this KO features?

[canofwhoopass_87]

You know it's a KO and so does he..but ebay doesn't, even if you email them with all your mumbo jumbo evidence. If you paid with paypal and opted for just regular postage (not registered) hit him with a non receipt dispute. If you file a dispute for a "not as described" you'll find it extremely hard to come out on top (the best outcome from this would be a refund upon return post, but that means you lose postage money x2).

With the paypal policies in place, unless he provides them with a registered post receipt showing it was delivered / tracking number you'll get all your money back.

Don't forget the negative feedback and reporting as well.

[gamblor916]

That's the morally suspect way to go about it but in this case it'll probably work better than claiming it's a KO. Good luck whatever you decide to do.


You know it's a KO and so does he..but ebay doesn't, even if you email them with all your mumbo jumbo evidence. If you paid with paypal and opted for just regular postage (not registered) hit him with a non receipt dispute. If you file a dispute for a "not as described" you'll find it extremely hard to come out on top (the best outcome from this would be a refund upon return post, but that means you lose postage money x2).

With the paypal policies in place, unless he provides them with a registered post receipt showing it was delivered / tracking number you'll get all your money back.

Don't forget the negative feedback and reporting as well.

[iceburn]

Definitely a KO, the rub sign and centre sticker gives it away.


Which seller did you purchase from?
IMO the stickers alone don't confirm it as fake; they could simply be reproduction stickers... maybe.

Sorry for the late reply
The sticker could be from Reprolabels. If you've bought 1 set of 4 Autobots/Decepticons rub symbols before...you'll notice it's that way.

[canofwhoopass_87]

That's the morally suspect way to go about it but in this case it'll probably work better than claiming it's a KO. Good luck whatever you decide to do.

If you've ever tried to put morals ahead of true justice on ebay like I have, you'll get screwed over in the end anyway. That's why I suggested taking it as an all out "non receipt" claim. Take that bastard down!

[kup]

However if he has already mentioned to the seller that he has received the item or has signed for it upon arrival then that makes that 'morally suspect' avenue closed.

It happens, I got screwed the same way with my Ratbat. Since Ebay has banned counterfit products the next logical option for sellers were to open them up and sell them as loose 'vintage' figures. In the past 2 years I have made an effort to get all the 'lost mold'/KOed toys I could so that I don't fall into the same trap again. Ironically enough, TFW's promotion of the G1 KOs actually helped me get a heads up on when they were due for release so that I could buy the toy in question before its KO release was out en mass such as G1 Mirage.

Sadly, to this day I have been unable to find a G1 Ratbat, even junkers without ears and stuff :(

[Eruntalon]

Recent developements, I have started the dispute process. All I want is my money back!


The characteristics on the ravage which you sent to me that shows it is a reproduced knock off of the original include the following: The rub sign has been printed with the aid of a computer, its edges are jagged and pixelated, it also has a matte finish and not the authentic gloss finish - this alone shows that it does not match your description. The font on the painted decals in ravage's cassette mode is bloated and of poorer quality, a characteristic of reproductions is also the way this tapes letter 'J' on JAPAN is cut off at the plastics edge. You did list this transformer as genuine vintage, but going by the date stamp is not enough as these are also reproduced on newer copies. I have been in contact with buyers who have given you negative feedback in the past for selling reproduction transformers and have discussed my current predicament with them. I would like to reach a deal where you can refund my money in full including postage, I will send ravage back to you via registered signed for mail, which I will pay for, so I have proof you get it back. I am hoping that you will comply so I do not have to initiate a dispute through ebay.

Toys_magician is "...speechless..." that I am accusing him of selling me a knock-off Ravage



I am totally speechless. No way it can be a knock off. I think you think too much and please do more research before you judge. To be honest with you I bought this from http://www.transformerland.com/ No way they will sell knock off. I won't agree with you unless you can get Hasbro to prove it.

The fact that the rub sign is not original to me means that I have been mislead - full stop. I can't go through PayPal to get my money back unfortunately as this was a direct deposit sale.

[roller]

what you need now is a piece of paper signed by your local friendly neighbourhood Hasbro man

saying its a KO

[canofwhoopass_87]

Or you could find out where he lives and give him the flaming bag of dog crap treatment. That always works well.

[jaydisc]

File a paypal dispute. I can give you his personal email address too if you want it ;)

[Eruntalon]

File a paypal dispute.

It was a direct deposit transaction. He has 10 days to resolve the dispute through ebay or I report him to the eBay Trust and Safety team. My hopes aren't high as you all suggest, PayPal is the way to go on fraudulent and misleading sales. Oh well.


I can give you his personal email address too if you want it ;)

Yes, please do.

Worst case scenario is re-selling it at an upcoming garage sale for significantly less money than what I paid.

[jaydisc]

PM'd. Good luck.

[griffin]

Unfortunately, Ravage is like many of the recent counterfeits, in that the packaging has the most obvious differences, but the toy itself doesn't.
Looking at these two sites:
http://highendtfs.com/?q=node/19
http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/vdecep.html#cass
I can't say with any certainty that yours is a fake, without a real Ravage next to it (to compare the shinyness of the metal legs - fakes are silver, real look like a weathered grey, even new). Borrow a real Ravage (if you can), and photograph the pair next to each other. If the legs are different, show that, and the above links to seller, and point out that they were selling packaged fakes before the ebay ban, and are now doing what other fakes sellers are doing, and just selling them out of packaging.

[DigDug]

Originally Posted by toys_magician
I am totally speechless. No way it can be a knock off. I think you think too much and please do more research before you judge. To be honest with you I bought this from http://www.transformerland.com/ No way they will sell knock off. I won't agree with you unless you can get Hasbro to prove it.

What a shonk :mad: ignoring the glaringly obvious potential it is a KO while unsubtly insulting you and trying to set you up with an excessive burden of proof!

I am no Ravage expert but there are 2 other problems I can see with the "toy magician" Ravage:
- The grooves on Ravages body (plain side) have raised areas bordering them. These are not present on any picture of a legitimate Ravage anywhere.
- The inner front leg of every genuine Ravage I can find shows 2 flat circular mouldings (one at the top and bottom) but yours only has the one at the bottom.
Edit: Just noticed the crappy, split rivets on the legs and dodgy tape sticker that doesn't fill the window properly too...

Finally, the gun pegs apparently are normally hollow on genuine Ravage while the fakes will be solid which narrows things down quickly so it may pay to check. See here for more info on KO weapons:
http://www.geocities.com/futuristgroup/vdiacass.html

[Eruntalon]

I'll check the above links in the morning. Thanks.

EDIT:

Ok, I've checked the above links in the last two posts. My major points of debate are now:

1.My rub sign still looks like it is a recent reproduction - full stop. It has jagged edges and no gloss finish. You don't have to rub the rub sign to try and figure out if it is decepticon or autobot because you can see that it is decepticon already!

2.The guns that came with the toys_magician Ravage are immaculate chrome, almost new. They have holes in the pegs (The links in the last few posts explain that holes in gun pegs means they are genuine. BUT this is not to say that they are vintage. Its probably likely that they are the latest official reissue's guns which had holes in the pegs also?.

3.My Ravage's eyes match vintage G1 Ravage eyes, but they also match reissue Ravage eye's. I don't think it's a question of whether the toys_magician is a KO, but I now think that someone has taken the reissue Ravage and has removed the newer design of robot sticker and replaced it with a tape roll sticker: (Check this link to see what I mean by new robot sticker on the reissue in place of the tape roll sticker - http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/g1/ravage/514/1/11/).

4.The Toys_magician Ravage does have two small indented circles on the front feet - you might not be able to see them in the photo I provided but they are there. I have no opinion on this characteristic regardless of what was said in the previous post.

5.The Toys_magician Ravage DOES have the 'butt molding' which is present on authentic Ravage's. Again this does not help me determine if my Ravage is vintage or official reissue.

6. The painted side of the toys_magician cassette indicates that it matches the reissue's paint scheme. Again here is the link to the reissue: http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/g1/ravage/514/1/10/. Note that on the reissue the font is thicker and the J in Japan is cut off. This does not occur on vintage originals - see the comparison here (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/toys/g1/ravage/514/1/7/) and another example of a vintage with thin font here. (http://www.transformerland.com/show_parent_g12.php?action=full_size&toyid=308)

7.On the painted side of the Toys_Magician Ravage the tape role sticker does not fit into the rectangle alcove, there is overhang on the left and right. I have compared the sticker to multiple other authentic G1 cassette tapes which have this same tape role sticker and can deduce that it must also be a reproduction sticker. The print quality is poorer, and there is no trace of a small amount of brown tape on the right side of the sticker, as if the sticker has been printed 'over sized' yet the manufacturer of the sticker has failed to include this tiny little bit of brown tape to the right.

8.The toys_magician ravage has date stamps on the tail. This has no bearing on the entire matter as authentic G1 tapes were released with both date stamps and no date stamps.

9.The toys_magician Ravage's legs aren't necessarily silver (which would make it a KO) but are the same off-color silver found on vintage and authentic Ravage's. Again this does not mean it is vintage, it merely means that it is probably a reissue once again. But in regards to the toys_magician Ravage's legs:

...NEW DISCOVERY (not sure what this means): Why does the Toys_Magician Ravage have indentation/detailing on both sides of the metal on the legs. I cannot find any examples on the internet of Ravage with this indentation detailing on both sides of the legs, it only seems to appear on the side with the rub sign.

[Eruntalon]

We have reached a stale mate. I have had to report him to Ebay trust and safety.