When Did One Continuity 'Drop The Ball' While Another One 'Caught' It?

[Sky Shadow]

I've been thinking recently that there are a many examples of Transformers lore where I think one canon/continuity really stuffed up while another did it nearly perfectly.

For example, I love the idea of Pretenders in Masterforce. Like all good Transformers, they crash landed millions of years ago. Unlike most Autobots, the Cybertrons actually picked the dominant species correctly and disguised themselves as humans. They're immortal human-sized humans who've observed and interacted with us throughout history - absolutely fantastic. The Destrons made themselves look like horrible demons and scared us for a long while until they were imprisoned and then they escaped. They're all great - I love every one of the characters of the Masterforce Pretenders - they even make crap toys worth having.

On the other hand, the G1 comic - while my nostalgic favourite Transformers medium - completely dropped the ball on Pretenders. And then trampled it. A lot. The first Decepticon Pretenders were disguised as large monsters who then went and terrorised a bunch of humans. And, since - according to Scorponok - "these six warriors bear no resemblance to Decepticons, the Autobots will never suspect their true identities until it's too late!" Um... okay, but won't they still try to stop the rampaging giant monsters even if they don't realise they're really rampaging giant Decepticons disguised as rampaging giant monsters? The Autobot Pretenders were created because Optimus Prime's personality - still stored as... um... data on Ethan Zachary's 5 1/4" floppy disk - travelled through the internet and spied on the Decepticon Pretenders' creation (seriously, I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried). Now the Autobot Pretenders look like giant humans in armour. Bizarrely this does actually fool Scorponok and the Decepticon Pretenders... for about one page. The best thing about this first incarnation of comics Pretenders is that the execution was just so bizarre and camp that I got to read a story in which Skullgrin is a Hollywood movie star. Oh, and there was that story where Cloudburst just happened to find a planet of thirty-foot humanoids and almost got to make out with a hot alien chick until he blew it. (The second-generation comic Pretenders who show up have no origin, they just appear. Bludgeon? Longtooth? Thunderwing? Why are they Pretenders and when exactly did they get their shells?)

On the other hand, I think the comics were ingenious in addressing the Dinobots' creation - since there were no dinosaurs four million years ago, Shockwave crashed in the Savage Land (already a part of the Marvel Universe) and the Ark disguised five Autobots as the Savage Land's dominant species: dinosaurs. Simple and clever.

In the cartoon, however, Hound goes to a museum and brings back some tourist snaps:

WHEELJACK: If only we had some dinosaurs working for us. They'd really shake up the Decepticons.

RATCHET: Mmm. I'm with you, Wheeljack. We could build robot versions of those oversized iguanas -- if it was okay with Optimus Prime.

OPTIMUS PRIME: Robot dinosaurs might be useful. You have my authorisation.

What? That's it? Other than the fact that for some reason Prime's lines make me want to punch him or the scriptwriters in the face... the Autobots can just make Transformers now? Why don't they just make an army of them and... I don't know... actually beat the Decepticons?

The potential examples are endless - for me Primus is better than the Quintessons, Powermaster Prime is better than Ginrai, cartoon Headmaster Spike makes more sense than comics Headmaster Spike, 'The War Within' is better than 'War Dawn' and so on.

So I was wondering if anyone else thinks one continuity did something better than the others and why? (i.e. "X was just betterer" or "such-and-such-a-medium suxxors" will not suffice.)

[roller]

im a crazy mothf.

I think Machine Wars rips all over the Beast Wars universe.

The political ramifications that Bw Megatron, after stealing the golden disk, do not compare with Machine Wars Megatrons "Blow everything up and escape" plan.

episode 3A of Machine Wars " A Planet of death" was 10 times better then stupid "Transmutate" Ooooh we can all squeeze in a Euthenasia metaphor, but transmutate sounded stupid

[Sky Shadow]

episode 3A of Machine Wars " A Planet of death" was 10 times better then stupid "Transmutate" Ooooh we can all squeeze in a Euthenasia metaphor, but transmutate sounded stupid

Um... Roller... did these episodes of Machine Wars happen solely in your head? Where can I get them? :)

[Geminii]

OPTIMUS PRIME: Robot dinosaurs might be useful. You have my authorisation.

What? That's it?

To be honest, many of the 80s episodes were kind of cranked out without a lot of time and effort put into what might make deep and abiding logical and narrative sense to a bunch of 30-something nitpickers (e.g. yours truly) 20 years later. As long as it suspended a kid's belief for the two seconds it took to move on with the plot, they ran with it.

These days, they might, I dunno, have some Autobot protoforms or old laser cores turn up and have an accident occur during the scanning process, like the scanner locking onto a TV show or Skyspy flying over a Jurassic animatronics display.

[TheDirtyDigger]

I think everything should be retconned into one continuity and all the stories we find cringe-worthy written off as dream sequences.

[Sky Shadow]

These days, they might, I dunno, have some Autobot protoforms or old laser cores turn up and have an accident occur during the scanning process, like the scanner locking onto a TV show or Skyspy flying over a Jurassic animatronics display.

Actually, I can guarantee that these days the Autobots would go to an animatronic dinosaur theme park and one of them would break three exhibits. Megatron would rebuild the dinosaurs into attack drones and on their unveiling these 'Dinobots' they would attack the Autobots. Then a MacGuffiny Deus Ex Machina would give these Dinobots sparks.

[Paulbot]

I think the UK comics did "post-Movie" better than the US cartoon. In the cartoon the small Autobot army hiding on the Moonbase and on Earth suddenly had complete control of Cybertron again once the battle with Unicron was done which never made sense to me.

[GoktimusPrime]

Heheh, yeah I agree that Masterforce's Pretender origins is much better than the G1 comics' - it's something I've been saying for about 18 years now, but don't mind me. :p


Oh, and there was that story where Cloudburst just happened to find a planet of thirty-foot9m humanoids and almost got to make out with a hot alien chick until he blew it.
Cloudburst nearly suffered Death by Snoo-Snoo! :D :)

http://www.geocities.com/zoidberg_fan/episodes/images/amazon.gifhttp://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/0/01/Nomates.jpg/200px-Nomates.jpg

While I agree that Kaneda succeeded over Budiansky in terms of utilising the long-standard tradition of mass-shifting to make Pretenders human-sized, I don't necessarily fault Budiansky for later placing Cloudburst and Landmine on the planet Snoo-SnooFemax... by that stage he'd already established that the Pretenders were giants, so it was impossible to make the Pretenders interact as convincing robots disguised as humans - the next best thing was to place them on a planet with giant humans, well giant women (Femaxian men are human sized), and have them interact with those giants. It would've been awesome if they could've crossed over with Macross/Robotech and interacted with the Meltrandi... but legal issues would make that impossible. :p

"What is Snoo-Snoo?" http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Dojo/9093/miriyaid.jpg

"Allow me!" http://www.womengamers.com/forums/images/avatars/gallery/macross/max.gif :D

I think Furman tried to make the best out of a less than ideal situation with Pretenders. Knowing that they couldn't function as disguises, he focused on making their shells more like suits of armour that could also work as personal reinforcements - but of course with the massive weakness that if the shell is destroyed it fries the owner's brains. :D


(The second-generation comic Pretenders who show up have no origin, they just appear. Bludgeon? Longtooth? Thunderwing? Why are they Pretenders and when exactly did they get their shells?)
Yeah, their Pretender origins aren't explained - nor are the origins of the second-batch Headmasters and Targetmasters (e.g.: Nightbeat, Needlenose etc.). Although I've always assumed that after Scorponok developed Pretender technology that he would've shared it with the Decepticons on Cybertron so they would've been able to replicate it - and in the case of Mega Pretenders, improve on it.


To be honest, many of the 80s episodes were kind of cranked out without a lot of time and effort put into what might make deep and abiding logical and narrative sense to a bunch of 30-something nitpickers (e.g. yours truly) 20 years later. As long as it suspended a kid's belief for the two seconds it took to move on with the plot, they ran with it.
The G1 comics were also aimed at kids too.

--------

I think that the G1 comics did a better job of explaining the origins of Micromasters than the G1 animé/manga. In the animé/manga, Micromasters were basically used by Autobots to help humans. Their small size made human environments more accessible to them for search and rescue operations - and not surprisingly the most prominent Micromaster group was the rescue patrol.
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/2/29/Holi_zone.jpg/120px-Holi_zone.jpg
In the G1 comics, Micromasters were introduced as a technology created on Cybertron that made Transformers more fuel-efficient. This was something that would in turn become linked with Beast Wars' Maximal Upgrade and Beast Wars Megatron's reference to G1 Transformers as "archaic Energon guzzlers." :D :)

[Sky Shadow]

http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/thumb/2/29/Holi_zone.jpg/120px-Holi_zone.jpg

(Sniff sniff) "Hmm... do I have bad BO? Come on, guys - you'd tell me if I smell, right?"

[GoktimusPrime]

...now I'm gonna have to sniff you next time we meet you know. That's right, I have to!

[FFN]

To sell toys. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys)

[Sky Shadow]

To sell toys. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/To_sell_toys)

Hey - by coincidence I only edited that page yesterday and the edits have been retained. Yay. Anyway re: "to sell toys" - yes, all the continuities exist to do that. It doesn't change the fact that some of them do it well at times while others completely stuff it up.

[SilverDragon]

I feel that initially the Japanese Beast Wars continuaty dropped the ball. Seriously, Beast Wars is supposed to be just beasts (hence the title). No vehicle alternate modes (aside from Transmetal ones), period.



In the cartoon, however, Hound goes to a museum and brings back some tourist snaps:

WHEELJACK: If only we had some dinosaurs working for us. They'd really shake up the Decepticons.

RATCHET: Mmm. I'm with you, Wheeljack. We could build robot versions of those oversized iguanas -- if it was okay with Optimus Prime.

OPTIMUS PRIME: Robot dinosaurs might be useful. You have my authorisation.

What? That's it? Other than the fact that for some reason Prime's lines make me want to punch him or the scriptwriters in the face... the Autobots can just make Transformers now? Why don't they just make an army of them and... I don't know... actually beat the Decepticons?


Of course, the real problem is why Wheeljack built them with such small brains (and then gave them FLAMETHROWERS) in the first place. (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2-aTbHsZJ9g)

[GoktimusPrime]

I agree. Anyway getting back on topic...

+ Shockwave: I prefer the G1 comic version. The G1 cartoon version was rather dull - just an obedient lackey for Megatron who was left behind on Cybertron. Comic Shockwave is the one we all really love - running on cold logic and vying for leadership of the Decepticons!

+ Galvatron: Again, prefer the comic version. Cartoon Galvatron was a rampaging retard. Comic Galvatron was a freakin' god. I agree with Paulbot's sentiment about the comics handling post-movie continuity/characters better than the cartoon.

+ The Dinobots: Prefer the comic version for reasons cited by Sky Shadow. On top of that Swoop and Slag have some dark secrets - Swoop has been dishonoured (and longs to regain his honour) and Slag is a Berserker.

+ Ultra Magnus: Prefer the comic version, even if he did get the crap pummeled out of him by Galvatron repeatedly. As they say, a hero is only as good as the villain he fights. Cartoon Magnus wasn't a bad character but lacked decent enemies to fight (and was also overshadowed by Rodimus Prime).

+ Headmasters (series): Comic version of this story is my favourite. Second favourite is the animé and US cartoon (The Rebirth) is my least favourite - although I will give kudos to the US cartoon for making more of an effort to make the Nebulans look alien (e.g.: green skin). One thing that bothers me with the comic Nebulans is the fact that they all look like Caucasian humans. What an inter-galactic fluke, eh. As a character comic Fortress Maximus (and his relationship with Spike) is my favourite. But there is a certain coolness to The Headmasters' Fortress Maximus in terms of being the Autobots' main starship. The transformation scene is really cheesy but kinda cool from a kids' POV (like Voltron's merge sequence - illogically over-dramatised but it looks cool!) :p It's not like BWII~Armadaverse where I think it went too far (because everyone got over-done transformation sequences).

Sixshot: Japanese animé version is my favourite. I really like his moral ambiguity.

Japanese G1: I prefer the animé over the manga. The Victory Decepticons never had freakin' wives and children in the animé (*shudder*). And I agree with Chris McFeeley about the final battle between Star Sabre and Death Zaras - best G1 cartoon fight ever since Optimus Prime vs Megatron in Transformers The Movie.

G2: Prefer the comic. Not hard considering how crap the cartoon was. *shudders@cybernet.space.cube*

Armada: Preferred the comics. The cartoon was mediocre at best and the English dubs just trashed them and made them vomit-inducingly horrific IMO. The Mini-Cons were quite dull in the cartoon... the fact that they couldn't talk didn't help. I really liked how the comics showed the Mini-Cons as an under-class in Cybertronian society. I found Carlos, Rad and Alexis less annoying in the comics. The Worlds Collide Saga was really cool, although the ending wasn't quite as dramatic as I thought it would be (I guess because we didn't see a truckload of known TFs get killed off like in G1 :p). There were some cool moments in Micron Legend - particularly the characterisation of Starscream and his relationship with Alexa... but I felt it was lost in the English dub. The artwork in the comics would've been a lot better if the artists weren't compelled to draw the humans in manga style and just stuck to doing them in Western comics style.

Super Link/Energon: I can't decide which I prefer - the Energon comics or Super Link animé (I've never seen Energon, but I've heard that the English dub is really bad). Super Link was fairly ordinary as a series, but it occasionally had a few interesting moments - like when Kicker and Roadbuster started discussing the meaning of life. That's pretty heavy sh!7 right there. The Energon comics I found wasn't done as well as Armada. Again, I didn't like the way the humans were drawn with the "forced manga" look (that's not to say that non-Japanese people can't draw manga style - of course they can... unfortunately I can't say that about the artists at Dreamwave). The whole "belly of the beast" thing was cool - but then the series got canned just at that point! Gah!! It would be interesting to see how the Energon comics would've been if it'd been allowed to finish... but I guess we'll never know. :/

Classics: The Timelines story which portrays the Classics TFs as being a direct continuation of the G1 comics (ignoring the UK comics and G2) is my favourite form of Classics canon. The Henkei catalogue manga is good in terms of being a unified story - as really goofy as it may be (although the Galvatron story was kinda okay). I only wish that the comics were more commonly available and could include Universe-Classics characters. I'm glad that we can at least see some Classics & Universe characters in All Hail Megatron though - just from a visual POV.

...I could also say that I prefer the Story of Binaltech over the Story of Alternators... but that would be facetious. :p :D :)


I feel that initially the Japanese Beast Wars continuaty dropped the ball. Seriously, Beast Wars is supposed to be just beasts (hence the title). No vehicle alternate modes (aside from Transmetal ones), period.
That doesn't count because Japanese Beast Wars is in the same continuity as the Canadian series (much like how the UK G1 comics are in the same continuity as the US comics). This thread is about comparing different versions of the same continuity. Like you could compare Hasbro's Beast Wars origins with Mainframe's Beast Wars origins. I prefer Mainframe's by a long shot.

Also, you need to keep it within the context of the stories. In the Canadian they all scanned beasts from life forms and DNA samples found on pre-historic Earth. In Beast Wars II the Maximals scanned local life forms on the planet Gaea, but the Predacons scanned records of vehicles from an ancient Gaean computer. Beast Wars Neo's characters are all beasts though - not vehicles. So your statement is at best only 25% accurate.

[FFN]

Energon is one of the worst (actually english-speaking and not Malaysian RTM-1) dubs in Transformers. Of course, it wasn't helped by the... Japanese flavour the series occasionally had, like Mirage being Gay For Galvatron (complete with love hearts), or that scene where Starscream is forced to bow down and make a face apology to Six Shot on behalf of his feudal lord Galvatron.


Hey - by coincidence I only edited that page yesterday and the edits have been retained. Yay. Anyway re: "to sell toys" - yes, all the continuities exist to do that. It doesn't change the fact that some of them do it well at times while others completely stuff it up. You made a typo, jerk! :p:D

[liegeprime]

I just find it ludicrous in the G1 comics (marvel) that Prime personality can be all kept in one single "floppy disc". Its not even a laser disc or "a set" of discs. Just A disc. Man talk about a lack of personality!! :p. And they spend technology on crystal engrams used to house peronalities ( e.g. tracks, grapple et al) when it would've saved more space on just a simple floppy filed neatly in one corner of their ship. For all their vaunted tech and size, G1 comics TFs are nothing more than shells for a floppy disc size of a personality. what a let down. My PC could then store and preserve their whole generation.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Having said that there are some aspects I like better in comics than in the toons

Dinobots in Comics rather than the dumb and dumber Dinos in toons

In comics one has a better medium to explore more on personalities later on to make them interesting ( floppy disc size they may be aside) - e.g Bludgeon, Scorponok, Thunderwing

One thing the toons have over the comics though is that voice characterizations bring about greatness and at times makes the character really famous and endears it to fans no matter how campy or lame it is. Perfect example - Starscream. Sure he is depicted as a conniving scheming deadly second in command in the comics but at the back of everyones head they are reading it with Chris Latta's Screamer voice. And as such all subsequent Screamers HAD to HAVE that screechy whiny voice. It just wouldnt be Starscream without that voice.

[Kyle]

I prefer Jetfire/Skyfire's origin in G1 cartoon. :)

[i_amtrunks]

I think that the AHM series dropped the ball on what Furman had going in the "-tion" series of comics. That and in order to get AHM out as early as possible, Furman had to cut right back on his work, making a mockery of years of setup.

[kup]

I think that the AHM series dropped the ball on what Furman had going in the "-tion" series of comics. That and in order to get AHM out as early as possible, Furman had to cut right back on his work, making a mockery of years of setup.

Yeah his latest QA section is filled with comments about having to cut back on the stories due to lack of time or administrative decisions.

[Golden Phoenix]

I sort of mix and match things anyway.
And you have to take the good with the bad, the bad bits kind of help us because they make the better fiction look even better.
Plus, there is bound to be someone who likes the other fiction, so I guess its just up to personal choice and everyone can be happy

[Hereticpoo]

Continuity in TF, hahaha! I remain blissfully ignorant of all bar the IDW comics and the Complete G1 Boxset. I think alot of fans pic and choose which story lines they want to recognise. For me its IDW and G1 Cartoons. I choose to ignore Beast Wars, Beast Machines, Armada, Energon, Cybertron, RID, Marvel, Dreamwave, etc, etc. I think they're all, crap....BUT for the guys that like it good on you, if everyboy was the same how boring would life be?

So my 'TF Universe' is pretty simple. I feel sorry for you however Gok, man there must be nothing you don't know about TF's, and I don't know how you stay sane knowing all the glaring errors, mistakes, individual interpretations and haphazard story arcs in the TF universe. RESTECPA dude, RESPECPA. :)

[STL]

Here's an interesting question: to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time? It seems to be a defence a lot of fans and writers use but it's never sat comfortably with me.

[kup]

Here's an interesting question: to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time? It seems to be a defence a lot of fans and writers use but it's never sat comfortably with me.

I think they say that for 'dimplomatic' reasons but in reality its some external force pushing a certain angle or direction of a story such as the editor or marketing department or Hasbro. However Furman should be used to that since that 'external influence' factor has remained unchanged since the days of G1 comics and also happens in TF TV series, the best example being Beast Wars Season 3 which end was abruptly decided in favor of the Beast Machines direction.

[Golden Phoenix]

Here's an interesting question: to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time? It seems to be a defence a lot of fans and writers use but it's never sat comfortably with me.

Considering the amount of crap they probably get, I would consider it reasonable, especially if the timeline for which they had to produce the comic/story was shortened or some unforeseeable problem arises.
It is kind of like if a Video Games was released early, the publisher wanted it out for what ever reason. Now, you would forgive any little bugs or glitches the game had (as long as they don't break the game or make it unplayable) because you know they were forced to reduce the testing and bug fixing time

They are under a lot of pressure, and most of the time, the story is sacrificed by higher powers to get it out on time

[GoktimusPrime]

I just find it ludicrous in the G1 comics (marvel) that Prime personality can be all kept in one single "floppy disc". Its not even a laser disc or "a set" of discs. Just A disc. Man talk about a lack of personality!! . And they spend technology on crystal engrams used to house peronalities ( e.g. tracks, grapple et al) when it would've saved more space on just a simple floppy filed neatly in one corner of their ship. For all their vaunted tech and size, G1 comics TFs are nothing more than shells for a floppy disc size of a personality. what a let down. My PC could then store and preserve their whole generation.
It was probably a single-density diskette too! Weird how his entire spark could be saved onto something like that. :p Mind you, the G1 comics did portray the Transformers' "sparks" as being like computer programs - the Creation Matrix was originally a program that could spawn new programs, thus giving life to other Transformers. Vector Sigma more or less worked in the same way in the G1 cartoon. Furman later retconned the Matrix to being a divine artifact created by Primus.

It's also pret-ty lame how Prime allowed himself to be killed after losing in a freakin' LAN game of all things... especially considering how Megatron used a cheat code, and Prime knew it. While it was admirable and noble to see Prime insisting on adhering to his strong sense of honour, it would not have been dishonourable for Prime to declare the agreement void since Megatron cheated. The cartoon actually handled this better than the comics - in Heavy Metal War Optimus Prime declared the Autobots' surrender and exile to be invalid after discovering that Megatron had cheated in their fight.


One thing the toons have over the comics though is that voice characterizations bring about greatness and at times makes the character really famous and endears it to fans no matter how campy or lame it is. Perfect example - Starscream. Sure he is depicted as a conniving scheming deadly second in command in the comics but at the back of everyones head they are reading it with Chris Latta's Screamer voice. And as such all subsequent Screamers HAD to HAVE that screechy whiny voice. It just wouldnt be Starscream without that voice.
I dunno... Starscream's Japanese voice isn't screechy and I think it sounds cool (it actually sounds pretty menacing). But anyway, this isn't really within the scope of this thread - that's more of an aspect that the medium of animation offers that comics doesn't and is thusly not really a fair comparison. There are some things which animation can visually and audially do better than comics because it is a more advanced technology than comic books (comics date back to the 19th Century with manga dating back to the 18th Century).


So my 'TF Universe' is pretty simple. I feel sorry for you however Gok, man there must be nothing you don't know about TF's, and I don't know how you stay sane knowing all the glaring errors, mistakes, individual interpretations and haphazard story arcs in the TF universe. RESTECPA dude, RESPECPA.
PTTPECT! So I can't spell mutha<expletive>! :D Ah yes, Eddie Murphy. :)

Nah, I've come to like the fact that Transformers has always had multiple continuities. The advantage is that it offers fans a choice. For example, I don't like G1 cartoon Wheelie. But I don't mind the G1 comic version of him, and I quite like the way he was portrayed in his original G1 toy character (even though the actual toy is pretty lame), the "Wild Boy of Quintessa" book and IDW's Spotlight: Wheelie - the latter two being quite faithful to Wheelie's G1 tech specs describing him as a tough survivalist - not some babysitting loser for Daniel Witwicky. I cheered when Daniel and Wheelie got killed off (in a flashback from Arcee during the Beast Machines era). :D :)

Compare this with other stories which only have one accepted universal continuity. Take Star Wars for example - with the exception of some out-of-canon stories, Star Wars is mostly a singular continuity. A lot of Star Wars fans don't like Jar Jar Binks. Unfortunately, because there is only really one continuity, if you don't like him then too bad! It is a canonical fact that:
+ Jar Jar Binks exists in the Star Wars universe.
+ Jar Jar Binks talks like a baby and is a clumsy oafloser.
+ Jar Jar Binks helped Palpatine pass the bill to create the Clone Army, which in turn allowed him to transform the Republic into the Empire - this alone means that you cannot ignore Jar Jar from Star Wars continuity! Nyaaaaaah!

You can't say, "well I prefer another version of Jar Jar Binks" because there isn't one! This has even backfired on George Lucas because Episode 4.5 (Star Wars Holiday Special) which Lucas himself hates with a passion is in-continuity! Forget Life Day... the Holiday Special gave us Boba Fett - who of course is a vital character to Star Wars lore, much much more so now that Lucas has worked Fett into the whole Clone Wars thing!

Wheelies that weren't lame!
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/4/4d/Wheelieg1.jpg/250px-Wheelieg1.jpghttp://www.tfarchive.com/comics/idw/images/spotlight_wheelie.jpg

There is only one Jar Jar
http://forums.filefront.com/customavatars/avatar189634_1.gif


Here's an interesting question: to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time? It seems to be a defence a lot of fans and writers use but it's never sat comfortably with me.
If it's because the writer was just running late, then it's the writer's fault. But if it's because they were told by Hasbro to prematurely conclude the story at the last minute, then that's entirely different as it's something that the writers would not have been able to predict and prepare for in advance. It would help if Hasbro gave writers more advanced warning which they did during Generation 2; hence why G2, despite its limited run, was concluded fairly well in a way that didn't feel too rushed.

[i_amtrunks]

Here's an interesting question: to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time? It seems to be a defence a lot of fans and writers use but it's never sat comfortably with me.

Usually when writers use that excuse it is for single issues and the ilk, where it is their own fault more often than not.

Furman had to satisfactorily wrap up years worth of stories, including multiple plot points and divergent stories in the space of 4 issues, when he had originally had at least 12 (6 part series of Revelation and Expansion), and possibly more, because his publisher (and Hasbro) wanted to go in a whole new direction with very little notice. When you read what he had in store for characters like Hotrod, Galvatron and Ultra Magnus, in comparison to what he had to do with them to make a tidy (if messy and dull) ending you can see how much his hand was forced.

[Sky Shadow]

It's also pret-ty lame how Prime allowed himself to be killed after losing in a freakin' LAN game of all things... especially considering how Megatron used a cheat code, and Prime knew it. While it was admirable and noble to see Prime insisting on adhering to his strong sense of honour, it would not have been dishonourable for Prime to declare the agreement void since Megatron cheated.

Prime didn't know Megatron cheated, Gok. What happened was Prime beat Megatron; Megatron used the cheat code; Megatron blasted Prime; Prime pulled a pipe that toppled and killed Megatron again, but also killed the innocent Metropipe inhabitants. Prime thought he himself had cheated since he allowed innocents to die, which was something he would never do in real life. He was doing his typical nobility schtick and it was quite a powerful statement. Prime never found that out Megatron was the first one to cheat, hence he couldn't have rendered the game null and void.

[Sky Shadow]

Furman had to satisfactorily wrap up years worth of stories, including multiple plot points and divergent stories in the space of 4 issues, when he had originally had at least 12 (6 part series of Revelation and Expansion), and possibly more, because his publisher (and Hasbro) wanted to go in a whole new direction with very little notice. When you read what he had in store for characters like Hotrod, Galvatron and Ultra Magnus, in comparison to what he had to do with them to make a tidy (if messy and dull) ending you can see how much his hand was forced.

Then again, Furman is the master at endings with little notice. The final story arc of USG1 (76-80) is my favourite US storyline and it tied up everything so well (even though setups like Nucleon were never allowed to fully play out.) And the issues before that one were amazing too even though he never knew when the axe would fall. Similarly, G2 is a fantastic run of twelve issues which he tied up masterfully when the (Jhi)ax(us) fell. Sadly (because Pat Lee is a jerk), Furman never got to tie up War Within: The Age Of Wrath but I'm sure he could have done it in one issue if he were given the chance.

My point (in relation to STL's original question: "to what extent is it justifable for a writer to run the argument that he ran out of time?") is that Furman is a man who has regularly been given too little time and he's done amazing things with it. Then again, with comics written "the Marvel Way" (plot -> art -> script), writers are sometimes justified in saying they've been given too little time. When Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio were co-plotting and drawing the X-Men titles, they allegedly took so long that the writers were finally given the pages about a day before deadline at which point they had to fill an entire book of caption boxes and speech bubbles - even when the pages looked nothing like the original plot had specified.

Usually, though, writers who "ran out of time" are just the type of people who like to place the blame elsewhere when they themselves have done a crap job.

[SilverDragon]

That doesn't count because Japanese Beast Wars is in the same continuity as the Canadian series (much like how the UK G1 comics are in the same continuity as the US comics). This thread is about comparing different versions of the same continuity. Like you could compare Hasbro's Beast Wars origins with Mainframe's Beast Wars origins. I prefer Mainframe's by a long shot.

Also, you need to keep it within the context of the stories. In the Canadian they all scanned beasts from life forms and DNA samples found on pre-historic Earth. In Beast Wars II the Maximals scanned local life forms on the planet Gaea, but the Predacons scanned records of vehicles from an ancient Gaean computer. Beast Wars Neo's characters are all beasts though - not vehicles. So your statement is at best only 25% accurate.

Oh, dang. I guess I leapt in without checking.

[GoktimusPrime]

Prime didn't know Megatron cheated, Gok. What happened was Prime beat Megatron; Megatron used the cheat code; Megatron blasted Prime; Prime pulled a pipe that toppled and killed Megatron again, but also killed the innocent Metropipe inhabitants. Prime thought he himself had cheated since he allowed innocents to die, which was something he would never do in real life. He was doing his typical nobility schtick and it was quite a powerful statement. Prime never found that out Megatron was the first one to cheat, hence he couldn't have rendered the game null and void.
Hmm yeah, that's true. That would make both comic and cartoon Primes equal in terms of their deep sense of honour. It still sucks how Prime died as a result of losing a LAN game but (JMO). :p Either way, both served well in portraying Optimus Prime's honour as being simultaneously both his greatest strength and weakness.

I like both cartoon and comic Blaster even though they were two very different characters. I like how Spotlight: Blaster showed both elements of G1 Blaster - his affable cartoon persona was the radio-front whereas the darker more serious comic persona was his real self. :) Cartoon Blaster was a fun character whereas comic Blaster was the charismatic dark knight.

[roller]

i think the G2 ads and Cybernet space cube had better 3d animation then Beast warseers

[Geminii]

It was probably a single-density diskette too!

Are we assuming that Chip Chase, a genius technohead with regular access to alien computers and the gregarious aliens in charge of same, never had any upgrades made to his personal home workstation?

With current cutting-edge lab tech, we should be able to squeeze about 100 terabits into a volume the size and shape of a 5.25-inch floppy dish. That might be enough to encode a compressed version of Prime - and that's assuming that Cybertronian tech was only 25 years ahead of 1980s-era humanity.

Another assumption, one I like a little better, is that the floppy disk didn't contain Prime himself - it contained a three-megabit key sequence which would unlock an access channel to the Allspark via the Matrix and find/retrieve Prime's actual pattern. Or it encoded precise time-space co-ordinates for a read-only timescoop to find/copy an older version of Prime's laser core, plus a fractal sequence which would act on the timescooped data to create a rough outline of events from the timescooped point to the moment of disk encoding.

In other words, anything can be technobabbled away. :)

[Sky Shadow]

Are we assuming that Chip Chase, a genius technohead with regular access to alien computers and the gregarious aliens in charge of same, never had any upgrades made to his personal home workstation?

Umm... weren't we talking about Ethan Zachary, who had no personal interaction with 'aliens' prior to the day he independently put Prime on a floppy disk?

That said, Zachary was a computer genius with a cutting-edge lab... which he used to play computer games. And your technobabble sounds sufficiently babbly to be convincing (although there were no Allsparks or laser cores in G1 comic continuity.)

[kup]

Umm... weren't we talking about Ethan Zachary, who had no personal interaction with 'aliens' prior to the day he independently put Prime on a floppy disk?

That said, Zachary was a computer genius with a cutting-edge lab... which he used to play computer games. And your technobabble sounds sufficiently babbly to be convincing (although there were no Allsparks or laser cores in G1 comic continuity.)

I think that the term 'Spark core' was mentioned as something necessary for Transformer life but it was just passing lines as in "I felt it all the way to my Spark core". That was never elaborated upon until Beast Wars.

[roller]

laser cores yo

[Sky Shadow]

I think that the term 'Spark core' was mentioned as something necessary for Transformer life but it was just passing lines as in "I felt it all the way to my Spark core".

The closest thing I can think of to what you're saying is from issue #1 of the 1986 movie adaptation where Optimus Prime says "Not while a spark still lights up my circuits, Megatron!" And in the Pretenders issue I originally alluded to for this thread, Prime says "for as long as a spark exists within a single mechabot, good shall always vanquish evil." But in both these cases he's clearly talking about a literal spark like one from a sparkplug, not anything to do with the ones in Beast Wars ot the Allspark that wouldn't be invented until Beast Machines.

[GoktimusPrime]

In the G1 comics the Transformers had a "life essence" also known as "primal essence" - spawned from the life essence of Primus himself. The Creation Matrix was forged from Primus' life essence itself. That's the Furman retcon anyway - before then Budiansky had described the Matrix as a highly sophisticated computer program capable to producing life engrams for other Transformers. That's why Shockwave nicked Prime's head so he could use the Creation Matrix program to create the Constructicons. Optimus Prime then uploaded the Creation Matrix to the brain of Buster Witwicky - and later on when the Matrix was retrieved they used it to give life to Jetfire. But that's all been officially retconned as per Furman's definition of the Creation Matrix and Transformer life essences. The words "laser core" or "spark" were never used in the context of a "soul" in the comics, but they did have other equivalent terms (e.g.: essence). In the Beast Wars comic (Reaching The Omega Point) Unicron's soul is referred to as "Dark Essence" - whereas in the animation (JP) and IDW comics it's called Angolmois.

Having said that, G1 was always fairly ambiguous about TF souls - Beast Wars was the first to very concretely define and describe the nature of the Transformers' soul, and as such their term for it (Sparks) has entered common currency for TF souls ever since. The concept of the AllSpark was mentioned in Beast Wars but became clearly defined and specifically named in Beast Machines. The AllSpark in the movie and Animated is a different concept from the AllSpark in the G1-G2-BW-BM continuity family though. In the G1 continuity family the AllSpark is more like the Transformers' equivalent of Nirvana. In the movie and Animated it's a Deus ex machina. Mmm... Cosmic MacGuffin fresh... ;)

[Paulbot]

That said, Zachary was a computer genius with a cutting-edge lab... which he used to play computer games. And your technobabble sounds sufficiently babbly to be convincing (although there were no Allsparks or laser cores in G1 comic continuity.)

Which is why I wrote (well drafted) a little essay called "Powermaster Optimus Prime has no soul" back around 2000/2001 :)

[GoktimusPrime]

He's an abomination in the eyes of Primus. :p ;)

[Geminii]

What, he couldn't substitute Hi-Q?

[kup]

I personally retconed it in this way in an attempt to bring reason to the whole event:

Since the Spark is basically mostly energy encased in a kind of physical transluscent but volitile bubble, Ethan Zachary was able to store the 'energy' in a Double Density 5.25" 360kb (:p) Floppy disc. The capacity of the Floppy disc became irrelevant as the magnetic disc was enough to sustain the Energies of Prime's spark in the same way that the transluscent bubble is able to do.

Note: Please keep in mind that:

a) I am taking Scientific Liberties like all good Sci-Fi universes do.
b) There is a lot about what constitutes a spark and Transformers data storage capabilities that we don't know. They could have perfected some super advanced way to compress data in order to store huge amounts of it in as little 'space' as possible. Kinda like a super advanced pkzip (winzip now).

[GoktimusPrime]

What, he couldn't substitute Hi-Q?
What do you mean? Are you asking why Hi-Q's soul doesn't count for Powermaster Prime? Hi-Q and Optimus Prime, at the time of their binary bonding - were two separate entities... much like Spike and Fortress Maximus. One unexpected side-effect of binary-bonding appears to be the merging of the minds between the Nebulan/human and Transformer (e.g.: Spike and Fortress Maximus were able to commune telepathically to each other, even from vast distances and Zarak and Scorponok's minds became one (within Zarak)).

Story time!
In the case of Optimus Prime, he and Hi-Q were separate entities, but during the events leading up to and during the Matrix Quest their minds began to merge - although unbeknownst to both parties. The merger manifested itself in a series of random painful fits for Optimus Prime. Just before Prime sacrificed himself to destroy Unicron, he released Hi-Q. Prime's death then suddenly sped up the merger with Optimus Prime's mind becoming one with Hi-Q's shortly after Prime's death. The Last Autobot then took Hi-Q/Prime and recreated him (them?) into Action Master Optimus Prime.
(/storytime)


I personally retconed it in this way in an attempt to bring reason to the whole event:

Since the Spark is basically mostly energy encased in a kind of physical transluscent but volitile bubble, Ethan Zachary was able to store the 'energy' in a Double Density 5.25" 360kb () Floppy disc drive. The capacity of the Floppy disc became irrelevant as the magnetic disc was enough to sustain the Energies of Prime's spark in the same way that the transluscent bubble is able to do.

Note: Please keep in mind that:

a) I am taking Scientific Liberties like all good Sci-Fi universes do.
b) There is a lot about what constitutes a spark and Transformers data storage capabilities that we don't know. They could have perfected some super advanced way to compress data in order to store huge amounts of it in as little 'space' as possible. Kinda like a super advanced pkzip (winzip now).
A Spark is something which has no physical form and is intangible - not made of any matter. Although Mainframe animators gave Sparks a visual avatar, Beast Wars writers have stated that it is formless. Seeing a Spark is like seeing a ghost.

No Cyber-Ectoplasm please. :p
http://www.xenafan.com/movies/ghostbusters/pete.jpg

[kup]

A Spark is something which has no physical form and is intangible - not made of any matter. Although Mainframe animators gave Sparks a visual avatar, Beast Wars writers have stated that it is formless. Seeing a Spark is like seeing a ghost.

Megatron managed to cut Rampage's in half with a refined energon blade so there has to be a physical element to it.

On a typical spark that would have caused it to exploded but because it was based on Starscream's 'immortal' spark, he was able to successfully split it in two.

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay... maybe there is some cyber-ectoplasm after all! :p Well... ghosts are weird... they're supposedly formless and devoid of matter, yet they can sometimes physically interact with the universe (e.g. poltergeists). So perhaps a Spark is like that - formless yet somehow still able to be physically interactive. Yeah, it makes no sense... but let's face it, we're talking about freakin' spirits and Transformer spirituality here. Trying to apply logic here is like bashing your head against a brick wall. You just have to suspend disbelief and accept it really (remembering that spiritual beliefs are based on faith rather than empirical logic). :p

Who ya gonna call?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/thumb/6/66/Cycle_drone_with_extractor.jpg/300px-Cycle_drone_with_extractor.jpg

[kup]

Okay... maybe there is some cyber-ectoplasm after all! :p Well... ghosts are weird... they're supposedly formless and devoid of matter, yet they can sometimes physically interact with the universe (e.g. poltergeists). So perhaps a Spark is like that - formless yet somehow still able to be physically interactive. Yeah, it makes no sense... but let's face it, we're talking about freakin' spirits and Transformer spirituality here. Trying to apply logic here is like bashing your head against a brick wall. You just have to suspend disbelief and accept it really (remembering that spiritual beliefs are based on faith rather than empirical logic). :p



Keep in mind that my 'take on it' I still maintain the spark as energy and the 'bubble' is merely a container or Prime's spark would have in no way been able to be stored in the floppy disc.

[STL]

I think Gok's comments here best sum up my opinion on the matters present.


You just have to suspend disbelief and accept it really.


As much as I love Transformers fiction there are times you just have to be willing to suspend disbelief and accept things as they are. They are a fictional universe after all and the primary purpose is to tell stories and those stories should be compelling - not the inner workings of that universe. Understanding the consciousness of a spark or how Optimus Prime's programming was stored onto a floppy may add to one's appreciation of how TFs work but at the end of the day it has no bearing on your appreciation of TFs as a whole if the story is dragged under by it.

I'm not saying that that gives licence to completely ignore matters of logic or believability but I'm saying that to focus on these matters are relatively trivial. The core purpose of fiction should be to propel the characters and the plot forward. And these types of discussions detract from that.

I think that how Transformers work or the "science" behind it is rather misleading and a negative. Especially given that the so-called science behind it is very questionable in the first place. Even more so where there is a section of the fandom that hangs desperately onto their knowledge of just how Transformers work and try to propound the argument that there is some formal logic to how it all works. There isn't. And there needs to be an acceptance of that.

I've yet to see a cohesive explanation of how Transformers work yet. The most we've come is fans drawing tenuous links between disparate lines of Transformers such as G1 comic v. G1 Cartoon v. Beast Wars v. Masterforce etc etc. And I'm not really sure I care for it either. The more obsessive "science" fans can argue all they want but fiction is sometimes a product of its time and as Gok says, you have to suspend your disbelief in the science to appreciate it rather than drowning in the details.

What my true hope is we'll get some really good TF stories. Since the War Within and War and Peace, I have yet to lay eyes on a truly cohesive Transformers story.

[kup]

We try to make sense of inconsistencies simply because its 'fun' :)

[jacksplatt11]

We try to make sense of inconsistencies simply because its 'fun' :)

You and I have different definitions of fun

[kup]

The inconsistencies themselves are not fun, they are annoying but its fun to use your imagination to try to rectify things that don't add up.

I don't understand how you immediately interpreted my comment as the inconsistency itself being fun but trying to make sense of it is once it happens as it requires imagination.

[kup]

Food for thought for those who find inconsistencies fun (http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/transformers-general-discussion/197704-transformers-reproduction-essay-me.html).

He mentions some uncanny references to Deathsaurus and stuff.

He is not making sense of inconsistencies but rather trying to force his brand of crazy into canon. What that guy is doing is different to what I was trying to make sense of the discrepancies between early Marvel G1 canon and late Marvel G1 canon which are in the same continuity.

That guy's name is Tramp in the DM.NET boards and he is a freak the likes you have never seen. He seriously has issues and I won't go into details on what his problems are because they will violate board rules.

If you are curious about what a crazy f*** he is you can read his stuff here but its not for the faint hearted:

http://www.donmurphy.net/board/showthread.php?t=26479

A bit of background: He spontaneously joined the DM.NET board and begun infesting it with his theories everywhere he could even in places where it wasn't needed. Someone was then smart enough to create a thread specifically about the subject to contain the craziness. As you read into what Tramp has to say, his argument begins to sound crazier and crazier and it becomes evident that his agenda is to force 'mammalian reproductive biology' into Transformers.

There is also some crazy stuff that he does in real life that I won't go into here but its scary as hell.

[i_amtrunks]

He is not making sense of inconsistencies but rather trying to force his brand of crazy into canon. What that guy is doing is different to what I was trying to do by explaining the discrepancies between early Marvel G1 canon and late Marvel G1 canon which are in the same continuity.

That guy's name is Tramp in the DM.NET boards and he is a freak the likes you have never seen. He seriously has issues and I won't go into details on what his problems are because they will violate board rules.

If you are curious about what a crazy f*** he is you can read his stuff here but its not for the faint hearted:

http://www.donmurphy.net/board/showthread.php?t=26479

A bit of background: He spontaneously joined the DM.NET board and begun infesting it with his theories everywhere he could even in places where it wasn't needed. Someone was then smart enough to create a thread specifically about the subject to contain the craziness. As you read into what Tramp has to say, his argument begins to sound crazier and crazier.

There is also some crazy stuff that he does in real life that I won't go into here but its scary as hell.

I know he did the exact same thing at Seibertron, and I believe he also was on the warpath at TFW and allspark as well. Think he was banned from all 3 sites too.

He was also responsible for writing the only TF Mosaic that Hasbro asked to be removed, and no longer appears on their database. It involved Ironhide finding Powerglide with his daughter...

[griffin]

It might be okay to warn the members here about dodgy people (mostly if it is to protect us from them in some way), but try to restrain yourself on how you describe them, especially if they are not able to defend themselves.
There have been some crazy people in the fandom over the years, but their ideas or actions end up being ignored over time. Paying out on their ideas just prolongs the existance of those ideas.

[GoktimusPrime]

There are only three words you ever need to type in any reply that you post to him - "shut up tramp." (that's what happens on boards that aren't as moderated as here - people take matters into their own hands and have to tell people like tramp to sthu - often board staffers would tell him to shut up too :p). He's been banned from at least one board afaik.

[Hereticpoo]

Kup,

I must be a complete wacko because i think his whole fembot argument makes sense :D



He is not making sense of inconsistencies but rather trying to force his brand of crazy into canon. What that guy is doing is different to what I was trying to make sense of the discrepancies between early Marvel G1 canon and late Marvel G1 canon which are in the same continuity.

That guy's name is Tramp in the DM.NET boards and he is a freak the likes you have never seen. He seriously has issues and I won't go into details on what his problems are because they will violate board rules.

If you are curious about what a crazy f*** he is you can read his stuff here but its not for the faint hearted:

http://www.donmurphy.net/board/showthread.php?t=26479

A bit of background: He spontaneously joined the DM.NET board and begun infesting it with his theories everywhere he could even in places where it wasn't needed. Someone was then smart enough to create a thread specifically about the subject to contain the craziness. As you read into what Tramp has to say, his argument begins to sound crazier and crazier and it becomes evident that his agenda is to force 'mammalian reproductive biology' into Transformers.

There is also some crazy stuff that he does in real life that I won't go into here but its scary as hell.

[kup]

Kup,

I must be a complete wacko because i think his whole fembot argument makes sense :D

Don't tempt me to quote some of the fundamental aspects of his theories which you have clearly missed since he likes to hide it in Real life biology, I will get banned if I do! ;)

[liegeprime]

Funny how a simple reply one makes about storing a personality in a tiny capacity floppy disc can generate a whole lotta theories - about 2-3 pages of comments and end up with someone being wacko :p:o:D.... all the while this has been a meandering topic of dropping the ball and another picking it up. :D:D:p . Its a good thing I just scan and skim and not read in detail, coz its gonna be a headache heheheh

[GoktimusPrime]

Getting back on topic...

Here's one thing that I think all continuities have dropped the ball on: THUNDERCRACKER

By Primus Thundercracker is one of the potentially most interesting Decepticon characters who, time and time again is constantly under-used by writers! Most other Decepticons are pretty much loyal to the Decepticon cause (even if they're not necessarily loyal to their leader, they are still loyal to the basic cause). Thundercracker on the other hand is unsure and not fully convinced of the merits of the Decepticon cause. On the other hand he's not one who would side with the Autobots either. But having this element of a Decepticon who doubts his cause is really interesting and has the potential to make Thundercracker a pretty neat character if writers should ever choose to exploit that facet of his personality... but they never do!! BOOO!!!

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard01.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard02.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/madboard03.jpg

Groove and Blades are under-used characters too. For some bizarre reason, cartoon writers gave Groove's personality to First Aid. The G1 manga did exploit Blades' personality though - which is one of my favourite things about the G1 manga... but otherwise Blades has a lot of untapped potential in him.

Blades is a lot like R2-D2 in Darths and Droid (http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0049.html)!

"I'm totally hardcore. Bring it on." - R2-D2 (Darths and Droids)

:D

[Sky Shadow]

Getting back on topic...

Here's one thing that I think all continuities have dropped the ball on: THUNDERCRACKER

By Primus Thundercracker is one of the potentially most interesting Decepticon characters who, time and time again is constantly under-used by writers! Most other Decepticons are pretty much loyal to the Decepticon cause (even if they're not necessarily loyal to their leader, they are still loyal to the basic cause). Thundercracker on the other hand is unsure and not fully convinced of the merits of the Decepticon cause. On the other hand he's not one who would side with the Autobots either. But having this element of a Decepticon who doubts his cause is really interesting and has the potential to make Thundercracker a pretty neat character if writers should ever choose to exploit that facet of his personality... but they never do!! BOOO!!!

Hey Gok - I know you don't like fanfics, but I used all of that in my Thundercracker fic - Best First - which is still the reigning 'Best Fanfic Story Ever' from the last Trannies Awards and won 'Best Fanfic Story of the Year' in 2002. It's also the most reviewed and second-most read fanfic on Lexicon (thus, even though you don't like fanfics, this is at least one that other people like enough to vote it the best one ever and to read it a lot and, y'know, stuff.)

http://www.transformersfanfic.com/viewstory.php?sid=1331&chapter=1

[i_amtrunks]

The Mosaic project has seen at least half a dozen focusing on Thundercracker being disenchanted with the Decepticon cause.

3 of them appeared within weeks of one another and it almost felt like overkill...

[roller]

He was also responsible for writing the only TF Mosaic that Hasbro asked to be removed, and no longer appears on their database. It involved Ironhide finding Powerglide with his daughter...

wow

anyone have a copy ?

[Gutsman Heavy]

wow

anyone have a copy ?

its was kinda creepy, and plain weird

[kup]

its was kinda creepy, and plain weird

He told us that it was "An exploration of family values" :rolleyes:

[dirge]

Hey Gok - I know you don't like fanfics, but I used all of that in my Thundercracker fic - Best First

And see (aside from the fact that you wrote a damn fine 'fic), I love Best First for the fact that it doesn't focus on the same small band of characters. Your potrayals of Overkill and... damn that robot who noone remembers ( ;) ) are so much more interesting than reading another fangirl fap over Starscream or Prime or... the usual suspects.

[Sky Shadow]

And see (aside from the fact that you wrote a damn fine 'fic), I love Best First for the fact that it doesn't focus on the same small band of characters. Your potrayals of Overkill and... damn that robot who noone remembers ( ;) ) are so much more interesting than reading another fangirl fap over Starscream or Prime or... the usual suspects.

Aw thanks. (So... I guess you can work out which of the four Universe Special Edition toys I was planning on going to Caringbah for.) :D

[roller]

i think the 2007 movie 'caught the ball' in terms of hitting the public with appeal and exposure

[STL]

i think the 2007 movie 'caught the ball' in terms of hitting the public with appeal and exposure
:eek: Roller made a coherent point. :eek: :p

[blackie]

:eek: Roller made a coherent point. :eek: :p

take note people