Universal Counting Method Poll #20: Counting customs

[GoktimusPrime]

For the purposes of this poll:

+ The term "custom" refers to any Transformer toy that's been altered from it's original state.

+ The term "custom repaint" refers to a toy that has been repainted only with no other substantial physical alteration made.
e.g.: "Lexicon"
http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_glyphrobo.jpg
Lexicon was made by repainting a reissue Goldbug with the same colour scheme as Glyph (left) - Lexicon is supposed to be the Throttlebot upgrade of Glyph.

+ The term "kitbash" refers to a custom where a new toy has been created from the parts of other toys and may also include new original parts made from Sculpey etc.
e.g.: "Goktimus Primal"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/goktimusprimaltoy.jpg
Goktimus Primal was created from a junker Optimus Primal body with a bootleg Dragonball GT Baby head with the entire thing repainted. A lot of the toys I see KC99 showcasing are examples of kitbashing (e.g.: Masterpiece Inferno).

+ The term "slight retool" refers to a small physical modification, such as fixing Deluxe Animated Bumblebee's stinger weapons so that they can fit in flush. Anything much more substantial than that would fall under the definition of kitbashing.

+ "Cosmetic improvement" means that the toy's overall look has been improved but it's still the same toy-character.
e.g.: "Animé Optimus Prime"
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/animeconvoy.jpg
I used mithral silver paint to touch up worn-chrome on an original G1 Optimus Prime toy. Orange paints added to the front bumper lights. Eyes painted blue (this was before Takara did their Goodbye Convoy reissue (New Year Special Convoy)). Autobot symbol stickers added to shoulders (originals were long gone).
loophole's Universe Sideswipe and Sunstreaker repaints count as "cosmetic improvements" albeit on a larger scale. :)

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I'm personally voting for the third option "Only repaints/retools for repair & cosmetic improvement count." - I don't think custom repaints or kitbashes should count but I think modifications made for repair and cosmetic improvement should.

[Adzma]

I think it would be good if all customs counted provided they are actual characters from the TF universe that are produced. I love to see what other people can come up with using a little paint here, a little reshaping there and it seems unfare that they can't call them part of their collection.

[GoktimusPrime]

I've changed the example for "custom repaint" from Sentinel Prime to Lexicon.


I think it would be good if all customs counted provided they are actual characters from the TF universe that are produced.
So would you count Lexicon? If you punch "Lexicon" into tfwiki you won't find any entries for a TF character, but Lexicon is supposed to be the Throttlebot upgrade of Glyph (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Glyph), who is an official character. Basically she's the same character with an "upgraded" name (much as Bumblebee got his name "upgraded" to Goldbug when he became a Throttlebot).

http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_glyphfront.jpg
L: Glyph (official toy), R: Lexicon (custom repaint)

IMO Lexicon shouldn't count (as much as she is my favourite of the customs I've ever done).

[Adzma]

Hmm it's difficult to judge actually. I suppose it would be easier to say that if someone decided to invent their own character through kitbashing, lets call it Weapontron as a nod to Tripod :D, then it wouldn't be counted since it's not an official character. Bleh it's all too hard for me. :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah but Lexicon isn't a kitbash, she's just a repaint. Aside from giving her a new paintjob she is otherwise physically identical to reissue Goldbug (http://www.tfarchive.com/toys/techspecs/original-era/euro1991__Goldbug_(1991).jpg)... if you stripped the paint off you could restore it as Goldbug.

This isn't possible with a kitbash, like Goktimus Primal - if you stripped the paint off that you'd end up with the body of Optimus Primal, a neck made from Sculpey and the head of a knock-off Dragonball GT toy.

So would you count a custom repaint - one that is physically unaltered except for the paintjob?

Everyone ensure that your vote applies to how you feel about this. If you're unsure then it may be best to abstain from voting until you can make a decision rather than risk skewing the results. ;)

[kup]

What about Restored toys?

Like say I buy a junker with major chrome wear and mostly chipped paint which I decide to restore back to something resembling its original condition. Obviously it will never be the same as if it was just out of the box but it would still requiere a lot of repainting and in some extreme cases, modifications like resculpted parts such as joints, electronic mechanisms and even something more notable like a 'prostetic' arm or a leg. However the aim of the whole project is not to kitbash or create a new character but to restore the toy to a playable/displayable condition.

For example, At the Megatron Club meet, one guy said he had a Jetfire without an arm (I think) and was thinking of resculpting the arm himself. If he had gone through the procedure, would it still count?

[iceburn]

i'm heading towards repaint and slight retool that keeps the figure still transformable at a reasonable state does count.

If the figure is customised in a unique way that has both an good alt and robot mode then i guess it counts.

If the figure is customised such that the figure is no longer transformable and for display purposes, then it should not be counted like a non-transforming figure e.g. Statues, Robot Heroes.

Question: Under our databases, do we still then give it the name of the original toy instead of categorising into the series that the repainted/retool figure is meant to be?

[GoktimusPrime]

What about Restored toys?
I'd classify that as "retooled for repair."

[Thanatos]

Customs should count, be they new characters, or anything similar. A lot of hard work and talent goes into them, if changing a "stock" toy to something new takes it out of a collection, I consider it unfair. The question should have the consideration "TF toys or not?". Does a Macross figure made into Jetfire (g1) count? Does turning a transformer into a different toy/character from another show still make it count? What about self crossovers in the vein of Marvel and Star Wars? The legit ones count as transformers products, but what if someone made say, a batman custom transformer? No brand name and a DC character perhaps might not count, unless it was made out of a transformer.

It's complex.

[iceburn]

Customs should count, be they new characters, or anything similar. A lot of hard work and talent goes into them, if changing a "stock" toy to something new takes it out of a collection, I consider it unfair. The question should have the consideration "TF toys or not?". Does a Macross figure made into Jetfire (g1) count? Does turning a transformer into a different toy/character from another show still make it count? What about self crossovers in the vein of Marvel and Star Wars? The legit ones count as transformers products, but what if someone made say, a batman custom transformer? No brand name and a DC character perhaps might not count, unless it was made out of a transformer.

It's complex.

e.g. Nintendo Crossover - Donkey Kong aka High Score 100 Real Gear

[GoktimusPrime]

Customs should count, be they new characters, or anything similar. A lot of hard work and talent goes into them, if changing a "stock" toy to something new takes it out of a collection, I consider it unfair.
yes but kitbashes based on existing TF characters, or even sporting TF logos are technically illegal as they're infringing on HasTak's intellectual property.

e.g.: if you made a Masterpiece Inferno, even though that toy doesn't officially exist, the G1 Inferno character, name and likeness is property of HasTak and technically what has been made is an infringement of copyright. I think making the custom alone isn't something that HasTak would pursue (BotCon organisers cleared this up before they had their customs competitions) but if you then turned around and sold the custom then you would be doing something dubious... in principle this is what killed BotCon Japan.

And Article01 of the UCM clearly states that only items which are legally classified as Transformers (i.e.: manufactured under licence from HasTak) can count. If we were to remove that article then people would start counting KOs, non-Transformer transforming robot toys (e.g.: Macross) et al.


e.g. Nintendo Crossover - Donkey Kong aka High Score 100 Real Gear
...which would be an infringement against Nintendo's property. Again, making the custom isn't much, but if you then attempted to sell it... (re: BotCon Japan 2000 (-_-)).

If people opt for all customs to count there would have to be a disclaimer that it can only count if it is entirely made from legit TF parts and you did NOT pay for it so that Article20 doesn't contradict Article01.

[jaydisc]

I'm having a hard time choosing one of the above. I think it's all about what materials have been used. If someone makes a custom TF out of a Roadbot, it shouldn't count. If they make it out of a TF, there's no reason they should LOSE that count.

[GoktimusPrime]

For the purposes of this poll let's assume that the kitbash would be entirely made out of Transformers. If the votes favour for kitbashes to count I would enforce the ruling from Article01 so that only kitbashes made from TF parts would count. Basically Article01 would negate kitbashes made from non-TF toys like Roadbots, KOs etc.

hrmmm... my example of kitbash wasn't very good considering that I used a KO Dragoonball GT (that's not a mispelling, it was the name of the toy) toy head, but it's the only kitbash I've ever done. :p But anyway, let's work under the assumption that we're talking about customs made ONLY from Transformers and nothing else.

P.S.: To that extent scratch built parts and toys (e.g.: using parts made from super sculpey) wouldn't count either as those parts weren't manufactured under licence by TakaraTOMY. For BotCon Japan 2000 fans created a convention exclusive AI figurine that was scratch-built; Takara refused to classify it as an official toy and I remember when I posted an image of that toy I was very quickly told to remove it! Eep!

[roller]

i voted none

i love my Ozformers chainmaster Spectre, but if i ever bothered to count my collection, i would not include him

If i made a figure myself, like my planned War within Kup

i would not count it

same if i reapainted an Acid storm to his show colours, its a custom, not an official toy

[Thanatos]

Perhaps you could just count "bases" as doubles? IE I have a Custom Thundercracker made from a Starscream (Classics). Now I could count it as 2 Starscreams, since technically, that's exactly what it is. Same for Classics Overdrive, made from a Rodimus classics figure. Just count as a second Rodimus.

Yes/No? Maybe?

[GoktimusPrime]

That sounds like poll option #2 to me, Thanatos. :)

[lcz128]

Only just had a chance to even look at this post and I think it's a great mind poker. :\
What about say - a custom Classics Shockwave that has his arms from a Classics Prime on the base of an Energon Shockwave?
Things like that which is kind of a frankenstein custom... So - not custom built or scratchbuilt per se -

Or a Classics Jazz that is really a prowl - but with say - a robotheroes jazz head- (i've heard of someone doing that :o)

[GoktimusPrime]

What about say - a custom Classics Shockwave that has his arms from a Classics Prime on the base of an Energon Shockwave?
Things like that which is kind of a frankenstein custom... So - not custom built or scratchbuilt per se -

Or a Classics Jazz that is really a prowl - but with say - a robotheroes jazz head- (i've heard of someone doing that )
Those are kitbashes. :)

[jaydisc]

I support kitbashes counting, but only if mostly based on TF parts. Unfortunately, defining "mostly" would be an exercise in futility.

[dirge]

Unfortunately, defining "mostly" would be an exercise in futility.

Yeah, this one opens up so many grey areas. Personally, I don't count customs at all - just to keep things simple :cool:

[GoktimusPrime]

Unfortunately, defining "mostly" would be an exercise in futility.
Agreed, which is why if kitbashes end up counting under UCM I will enforce Article01 and bring in the rule kitbashes that they must be entirely made from legit TF parts for the purposes of the UCM.

[jaydisc]

Yeah, that still wouldn't suit me personally, because if I'm understanding you correctly, by that rationale, an Incinerator with Gundan hands would therefore not count?

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, that would be correct. It may seem trivial but as you said, trying to define "mostly" would be futile.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

Poop! I voted for the wong one!
Being a grumpy old man, I say "None of them count," but I clicked "All of them count"

I think I need more Wine :p

[GoktimusPrime]

Message to Mrs. Convoy: ご主人の金玉（ジャングリーズ）をよぉ～く蹴ってください！
Translation: Please kick your husband in the janglies!

:p

[GoktimusPrime]

Here are the final results:

35.6% All customs count
19.3% Repaints and slight retools count but kitbashes don't
21.56% Only repaints/retools for repair & cosmetic improvement count
23.54% None of them should count

Hence the new article will state that all customs count but remember that under Article01 only products manufactured under licence from Hasbro and/or Takara(TOMY) as part of the Transfomers brand can count, therefore only customs made entirely from licensed Transformers products count. If the custom contains part of a toy that is not an official Transformer product, then it does not count as it would be negated by Article01.

Thanks to everybody who participated. :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Okay, I've updated by UCM TF count with Article20's new ruling about customs.
So after reading and talking, here's how I've decided to count my customs:

+ Goktimus Primal (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_g-primal.html) - doesn't count because:
* use of KO "Dragoonball GT" head and Sculpey neck is in violation of Article01.
* junker Optimus Primal body is in violation of Article19

+ Goktimus Prime (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_g-prime.html) - counts.
* While the base body is incomplete, it's not a junker. It still transforms from a robot to a truck. There's no trailer, but a truck is still a truck even without a trailer (otherwise Huffer and MP Magnus would be screwed).

+ Lexicon (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_glyph.html) - counts.
* base toy is a straight repaint of Classic Goldbug.

+ Machine Wars Jetfire (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_jetfire.html) - counts.
* base toy is a straight repaint of MW Skyfire with faction sticker replaced.

+ Motordrone (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_motordrone.html) - counts
* base toy is a straight repaint of BM Mirage.

+ Sentinel Prime (http://www.geocities.com/sabretronsei/custom_sentinelprime.html) - doesn't count.
* Straight repaint of a bare G1 Rodimus Prime toy, but unlike a bare Ultra Magnus robot, Rodimus Prime is unable to transform into a vehicle without his trailer; he's only half a truck.

+ Vok Hunter Tarantulas (http://www.geocities.com/planetsabretron/customs_tarans.html) - counts.
* Straight repaint of Transmetal Tarantulas. Even still has his pizza-cutter. (:

So out of these 7 customs, 5 of them would count under UCM.

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Regarding Article19
The definition of C6 (or "junker") can be very subjective and we all have our different definitions of what counts and doesn't - that's entirely up to the individual. Article19 works like this - if you think it's a junker, then it doesn't count; likewise if you think a toy isn't a junker, then it counts.

Here are some articles which I used to help decide what I counted as C6/junkers or not.
http://www.he-man.org/primary_sects/toys/html/collectingterms.shtml
http://stason.org/TULARC/child-parent/toys/14-What-does-the-C-1-to-C-10-scale-mean.html
http://www.antiquetoys.com/adzoid/gradingguide.php3 <--I've used this definition of C6

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[u]Regarding the counting of Goktimus Prime[/ul]
I was intially hesitant to count Goktimus Prime, but then it dawned on me that I already have two Ultra Magni in my collection, a reissue w/ trailer and a G1 non-reissue that is only the cab robot (I've replaced the fists with reissue fists and the gun is from the original toy). I count both of them because I don't consider the cab-robot to be a junker. I have G2 Prime that is only the bare cab robot, but I count it. My G2 Prime uses Pepsi Convoy's fists (because I display my Pepsi Convoy in truck mode).

I know that a lot of people only consider Ultra Magnus to be "Ultra Magnus" if he has the trailer-armour, but that's a bias that's born from the G1 comics/cartoon which always showed him in his super-robot form... but as far as the toy is concerned the white cab robot is Ultra Magnus' true robot mode... the armoured mode is his super mode... something which Dreamwave comics portrayed (which I thought was kewl).

This is just _my_ personal opinion of what counts as C6/junker or not. I can perfectly understand it if other people would never count a trailer-less G1 Magnus.