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View Full Version : POLL: Skids, Mudflap. Racist?



Gutsman Heavy
24th June 2009, 09:02 PM
After reading various forums about ROTF one issue (other than the films quality) seems to be popping up.

Skids and Mudflap being racist caricatures.

A parody of African-american stereotype, "blackface (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface)" characters. But is this the case? I think not. IMO, they come across more as try-hards than anything else, two dorks who wish they were cool. Essentially the Autobot equivalent to food-court grommits.

However I can see why people would think otherwise, with their monkey-esc bodies, the jive talking and Skids gold buck-tooth. Hmm maybe they are racist...

Yay or Nay?

Sleeve
24th June 2009, 09:29 PM
I'm saying 'yes', and I've been saying it since the first previews with Skids and Mudflap came out with the use of the line "read? Oh, we don't do much reading".

That along with Skids gold tooth, their mannerisms, language and vocabulary, (especially when they're hiding immediately after the forest battle and again in the fight with Devastator), left me with an immense distaste as the tinge of racial stereotyping was too much. And here I was thinking the way they characterised Jazz in the first film was bad enough.

roller
24th June 2009, 09:35 PM
no they're not

there just 2 robots imitating a certain culture within the Continental united states

Quick lets ban Jazz and blaster next

Robzy
24th June 2009, 09:36 PM
Bay gets accused of being racist in every film he's ever made! (even TF1 had claims)

And, for the record, Bay has openly admitted that he created those two characters coz he thought they'd be funny!

He probably does it now just to piss people off!

I don't think he really cares what anybody thinks of him...

dirge
24th June 2009, 10:00 PM
I'm saying no. Sure there are elements of their mannerisms which are "black", but I don't see them being treated as inferior. Why? Because Bay's not that deep. They're comic, and the unusual nature of the characters is just a way to anchor that for a fairly shallow film.

I don't see them being ostracised or shown as wholly inadequate - they do their part for the Autobots' cause.

roller
24th June 2009, 10:04 PM
In the late 21st century Prof. Roller proved that there is no such thing as race, we all have the same internal circuits and lungs.

I hate those 2 characters cause there really bloody annoying.

I wish the ice cream truck mode got more time, and skids is Blue damn it hollywood!

STL
24th June 2009, 11:38 PM
Don't see an issue at all. Some people are way too sensitive. This is a heartless action flick, remember. If it even aspired to be more than that then maybe there could be cause for concern.

As it stands, they're two retards. Would we be having this conversation if two black characters had actually played the role in a similar flick? Just b/c they're robots people are trying to impute way too much into them and who they're supposed to represent.

sifun
25th June 2009, 12:12 AM
i just voted yes because i just want to spite everyone who said no. hahahah
in actual fact my real vote would be no.

turbonegro39
25th June 2009, 12:23 AM
nope... kids at gateway plaza in warrnambool hang there pants low and have there hats crooked talk like that.

Golden Phoenix
25th June 2009, 02:22 AM
I voted yes

Lets face it, the are playing up a stereotype and making fun of it.
But I don't care. It isn't supposed to be serious. It's a joke.
I laugh and think little else of it other then "haha. That was funny"

i_amtrunks
25th June 2009, 09:02 AM
I voted no, as I took the twins as being more of a stereotype of teens from "the street" (not Sesame Street), rather than being racist.

Saintly
25th June 2009, 09:07 AM
damn it! i voted incorrectly! :(

EDIT: I hit the down button one too many times and clicked submit!

1AZRAEL1
25th June 2009, 09:13 AM
It is supposed to be funny and not taken seriously.

I mean damn, anyone here seen Metalocalypse?
That is a piss take on metalheads (I for one am a big metalhead) and I think it is bloody hilarious.

What about Simpsons hmmm? Apu is the clerk at a convenience store, and he's an Indian. Is that not stereotypical?

People in this day and age take things too friggin seriously and wear there hearts in their sleeves.

(Edited bad words out sorry :p)

jaydisc
25th June 2009, 09:13 AM
I can see why people would think otherwise, with their monkey-esc bodies, the jive talking and Skids gold buck-tooth.

Gee whiz. That's racist.

Sky Shadow
25th June 2009, 09:32 AM
If people are going to get up in arms about this then the portrayal of Jetfire could be seen as equally ageist and its treatment of Alice was sexist. Personally, I didn't realise/think Skids and Mudflap were even meant to be black, I just saw them as robots that chose to cringeworthily emulate aspects of a particular culture, in the way Ali G does - that they were 'wigga' Transformers who didn't really know what they were doing or that they were embarrassing themselves. When it comes to the movie's treatment of characters who are actually African American, like Sergeant Epps, I'd say it presents him as an upstanding and capable human being.

GoktimusPrime
25th June 2009, 11:44 AM
I voted no. They're no more offensive to black people than say the Neimoidians in Star Wars are to Asians.

http://www.wizards.com/starwars/images/starwars/nute_gunray.jpg
"One order fried rice chow mein!"

Robzy
26th June 2009, 02:43 PM
Well, I guess to most people on this board, this particular issue isn't offensive. But I just read this article (http://enewsi.com/news.php?catid=254&itemid=15386) over at ENI and I thought it was interesting. The article is called Robots in Blackface (http://enewsi.com/news.php?catid=254&itemid=15386), and it made me think about the issue a bit more.

Anyways, just thought I'd post a link to it.

Here are some notable quotes (btw, I'm not sure if the author is "black")


These are robots in blackface, and I call bullshit.

They speak in bad ebonics and their misshapen faces both share bug eyes and jug ears. One sports buckteeth and a prominent gold front tooth. They are dumb, seem incapable of comprehending the moment, and have to be pressured to admit they can read… a little.

They refer to “popping a cap” into a sympathetic human’s ass just before fist bumping and calling him a “pussy.” I.e., a girl, which is the only thing it’s worse to be in this movie than black.

The voice actors say they didn’t mean for this to be the case. Honestly I’m inclined to believe them.




Confronted with the reality that Skids and Mudflap, some of the movie’s most prominent characters, are a simple repurposing of racist humor, Michael Bay had this to say:

"It's done in fun," he said. "I don't know if it's stereotypes -- they are robots, by the way. “

This too (video clip) was done in fun, and Bugs Bunny is just a cartoon rabbit…

So I assume, following that logic, that we should show the above to our kids. It’s a cartoon. Don’t be so sensitive. He’s a rabbit, by the way.



“These are the voice actors. This is kind of the direction they were taking the characters and we went with it," says Bay.

Yeah, those are the voice actors, and Bay is the director. Either he didn’t know what he should have known, or he knew and did not care.



Here is the best part…

“I purely did it for kids.” Bay says. Fantastic, not only have you made a $200,000,000.00 nationally advertised engine of violence, sexism and hate, but you’ve aimed it at children! Genius!

Why should we be surprised? This is a PG-13 movie with misogyny, drug use, violence, alcohol, torture, swearing, tons of onscreen graphic death and a massive toy line that says nice and clear on every package “ages 5+.” Cute. I bet the last time parents could get their kids a bug eyed, jug eared, gold bucktoothed action figure was 1933. What splendid times we live in…


“Young kids love these robots, because it makes it more accessible to them.”

Makes what more accessible?



Here I quote an article by Sandy Cohen, of the Associated Press.

Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.

"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."

Funny, I remember people saying the same kind of stuff about Bernie Mac and Anthony Anderson's characters in the first film.


Is Bay at it again, or is he a moron (another Poll perhaps :D)

Paulbot
26th June 2009, 02:56 PM
I'm undecided on the Twins, but there are other scenes in the movie where the audience is meant to laugh at people who not only are from minority groups but also, get this, wait for you'll laugh so hard, they also have unusual physical attributes (eg the short border guard and the guy in the deli with bad teeth) :rolleyes::(. But both films also make fun of big buff white guys too.

I think the film would have been better off with out the lame humour and if the new Transformers, like the Twins and Wheelie were allowed to have characters based on more than their stereotypical voices.

Vector Sigma 13
26th June 2009, 04:18 PM
Maybe people forgot this is just a movie and its all pretend? My vote is no.

Kayyasha
26th June 2009, 04:32 PM
Voted yes, but at the same time have the urge to start siging 'everyone's a little bit racist'. They were meant to be funny characters and yes, they were horrible stereotypes let's face it; Bay knows how to blow thigs up and not much else.

RageOnTheRoads
26th June 2009, 04:43 PM
I'm undecided on the Twins, but there are other scenes in the movie where the audience is meant to laugh at people who not only are from minority groups but also, get this, wait for you'll laugh so hard, they also have unusual physical attributes (eg the short border guard and the guy in the deli with bad teeth) :rolleyes::(. But both films also make fun of big buff white guys too.

I think the film would have been better off with out the lame humour and if the new Transformers, like the Twins and Wheelie were allowed to have characters based on more than their stereotypical voices.

Well said. :)

Not sure I found them racist. Annoying prats, defiantly.

Got a lot of cheers in the cinema when Bee clanked their heads together. :D

roller
26th June 2009, 07:43 PM
wah wah Al Jolson is a monster !! :(:(:eek::eek::eek:


Ha! I love al jolson

MV75
26th June 2009, 08:04 PM
So how are they "supposed" to be acting like? White?

Damn supremist predjuced nazis.

GoktimusPrime
26th June 2009, 09:10 PM
The racial stereotyping in these movies isn't much better or worse than what we had in the G1 cartoon really. Yes, it's a bit more adult, but it's an M film. Remember that in the G1 'toon we many Transformers who spoke in various accents, one of whom was Outback who spoke in a fake Australian accent (it was a fair attempt tbh, but still noticeably inauthentic).

Speaking in varying accents is nothing new to Transformers... and why shouldn't they? It's not as if they're even human. The movie explains that they learnt English from the world wide web, so they would be able to speak multiple human languages from a variety of different accents and mannerisms. I assume that they pick one that they like and stick with it. Unlike humans, their accents are not a result of their 'upbringing' or external environmental factors - it's been 'artificially' assimilated into their minds.

One interesting thing is comparing the way a Transformer speaks when they're talking in English and when they're speaking Cybertronian. In both movies we see Starscream speaking in both English and Cybertronian; accent and voices sound quite different. I wonder if it's even the same voice actor. I know that Hugo Weaving did record lines for Megatron in English and Cybertronian - although his Cybertronian lines are never used in the movies, we have seen behind-the-scenes video of him recording in Cybertronian (1:43 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKGAZO4beI): "Fiznot dibom milligret'desseth tass!").

As for saying things in a way that could be conceived as being socially or culturally insensitive... they're alien robots. It's expected that they're going to commit acts of social faux pas. Ratchet did the same in the first movie with his line about Sam's pheromones (although admittedly that's a lot more clever than Skids and Mudflap's try-hard "gangsta" talk, but one would assume that as a medical officer, Ratchet's intelligence would be somewhat above that of the twins who themselves admit to being illiterate! The only other illiterate Transformers I can think of are the G1 cartoon Dinobots who everyone knows aren't the sharpest tools in the shed :p). :)

Vector Sigma 13
26th June 2009, 09:15 PM
The racial stereotyping in these movies isn't much better or worse than what we had in the G1 cartoon really. Yes, it's a bit more adult, but it's an M film. )

Im sure it was advertised as PG here. This made me scratch my head a bit as i was having a severe moral dilemma with my 5 year old son sitting next to me...

Edit : I checked my cinema website and its rated at PG- dont know how they came to that conclusion?

Gutsman Heavy
27th June 2009, 12:01 AM
they must have cocked up, it is rated M.

SMHFConvoy
27th June 2009, 08:28 AM
I voted yes to racist. The characters come from a mean place. I read this thread and I am SURPRISED that it's okay to laugh at people because they are DIFFERENT.

Look at Skids and Mudflap they look different from the rest of the robotic cast and it's intentional.

Vector Sigma 13
27th June 2009, 09:04 AM
they must have cocked up, it is rated M.

http://www.deakincinema.com.au/movies.html

Vector Sigma 13
27th June 2009, 09:09 AM
wah wah Al Jolson is a monster !! :(:(:eek::eek::eek:


Ha! I love al jolson

Sounds like this debate has been going forever...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jolson

roller
27th June 2009, 09:25 AM
my final thought before the lock

its big wide world out there, ive seen it a few times. So if your offended by 2 annoying robots just remember there are worse things out there to offend ya.

Man i hate those 2, worse then G1 wheelie

GoktimusPrime
27th June 2009, 03:12 PM
I had to poke around for a bit, but the official Australian site (http://transformers2.paramountpictures.com.au/) for this movie shows that it's rated M.

SilverDragon
27th June 2009, 04:58 PM
I think one could call Skids and Mudflap more tryhards than anything else. That may be why they act the way they did.

Also, I don't think they'd be THAT negative, given that Mudflap punched his way out of Devastator. In my view, if he really was supposed to be a racist stereotype, he'd be crapping himself and having to be rescued by Bumblebee.

GoktimusPrime
27th June 2009, 07:46 PM
I loved Mudflap's little reference to G.I.Joe while he was fighting Devastator. ;)

Beast_Wars_Superior
27th June 2009, 11:54 PM
They are playing a racist stereotype, but it doesn't actually bother me. Why? Because the Autobots learned how to talk through the world wide web, and if some of them just happened to pick up a stereotype being shoved down our throats by all the top 40 rappers, who can blame them? ;)

I think as someone mentioned, it's more 'making fun of the stereotype' than 'making fun of the people attached to that stereotype'.

That said, I did find them pretty annoying. :p

Tiby
28th June 2009, 03:53 PM
They are playing a racist stereotype, but it doesn't actually bother me. Why? Because the Autobots learned how to talk through the world wide web, and if some of them just happened to pick up a stereotype being shoved down our throats by all the top 40 rappers, who can blame them? ;)

I think as someone mentioned, it's more 'making fun of the stereotype' than 'making fun of the people attached to that stereotype'.

That said, I did find them pretty annoying. :p

I agree. Eminem did it, Elvis did it, there are many who have imitated black culture or characteristics for their own benefit, and to public acclaim. I don't think it is racist to take certain (obviously over the top and caricatured) characteristics and use them in a movie. I mean, is Chris Rock guilty of racism when he goes out of his way to caricature blacks? Or Chappell? Or Eddie Murphy?

It's a movie with two funny/annoying/comedic relief characters in it, not a statement about society today.

Thanatos
28th June 2009, 04:54 PM
I'm not sure Michael Bay is smart enough to even be able to have that many layers of subtlety.

I think one of the problems is in the voice actors. First you have Skids who's voiced by Tom Kenny, the most quintessential white man on the planet, and then you have Mudflap, who's actually voiced by an African American. That raises some questions.

I don't think they're anything but an amusing look as some of the more silly stereotypes the world holds, rather than a straight up racist comment.

Beast_Wars_Superior
28th June 2009, 06:47 PM
I agree. Eminem did it, Elvis did it, there are many who have imitated black culture or characteristics for their own benefit, and to public acclaim. I don't think it is racist to take certain (obviously over the top and caricatured) characteristics and use them in a movie. I mean, is Chris Rock guilty of racism when he goes out of his way to caricature blacks? Or Chappell? Or Eddie Murphy?

It's a movie with two funny/annoying/comedic relief characters in it, not a statement about society today.

I think the best thing to compare it to would be the video clip to P.I.M.P by 50 Cent. If you're going to complain about Skids and Mudflap being monkey-faced (yes, that actual term has been used) stereotypes with gold teeth, take a look/listen at the roundtable of pimps Fiddy selected for the video. :p

Also, unlike Rock and Chappelle, that video is merely reinforcing those stereotypes, not commenting on or challenging them.

I think another interesting thing to look at is Anthony Anderson in the first film. He was portrayed as an everyday black man, so you could argue that his (extremely stereotyped) character was a racist one. Skids and Mudflap, on the other hand, are alien robots who learned human language/mannerisms from an Internet where this playa/pimp stereotype is glorified and reinforced constantly, by black people no less (rappers especially), on Youtube and other places. ;)

Robzy
29th June 2009, 12:01 PM
I mean, is Chris Rock guilty of racism when he goes out of his way to caricature blacks? Or Chappell? Or Eddie Murphy?It's a bit different when African-Americans make fun of African-Americans. The difference here is that the people behind this film are mostly white men! That's when you're walking on egg shells IMO.


I think another interesting thing to look at is Anthony Anderson in the first film. He was portrayed as an everyday black man, so you could argue that his (extremely stereotyped) character was a racist one. Yes, as I've already mentioned in this thread, this particular character (as well as Bernie Mac's and his character's family in TF1) were criticized too when the first movie came out (as were the "spanish" characters in the film, if anyone remembers correctly).

I think this is one of the reasons why it's an issue now... simply because Michael Bay has a track record of including these types of characters solely for the purpose of generating cheap laughs. The inevitable question is... is he doing it consistently on purpose because he's racist, or accidentally because he's culturally insensitive?

JuzMel
29th June 2009, 02:02 PM
Can we hear the voices of some black people pls? :p :D

I don't have a problem with Mudflap and Skids only that they were pretty irritating in the movie and I also didn't like their insect like bulging eyes.

Sky Shadow
29th June 2009, 05:17 PM
I read the following article yesterday, and thought the first comic legend on the page was interesting in relation to this topic. How far the US has come (or hasn't come) in thirty-nine years:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/06/25/comic-book-legends-revealed-213/

Robzy
29th June 2009, 05:38 PM
Can we hear the voices of some black people pls? :p :D

There are heaps on the net. Here's one for starters... (http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/06/25/dr-boyce-yes-the-transformers-movie-was-quite-racist/4)


I don't have a problem with Mudflap and Skids only that they were pretty irritating in the movieThat's my whole issue with this thread... personally I wasn't offened either. But clearly A LOT of black people are. That's the point, isn't it?

It's not about if any members of Ozformers were offended, it's about whether we think it could be offensive to others... surely!


I read the following article yesterday, and thought the first comic legend on the page was interesting in relation to this topic. How far the US has come (or hasn't come) in thirty-nine years:

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.com/2009/06/25/comic-book-legends-revealed-213/Fascinating! :eek:

SofaMan
29th June 2009, 06:02 PM
I voted yes. Sure, Skids and Mudflap are making fun of the stereotype, but they're buying into it as well.


Racism is the belief that race is a significant determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race. (from Wikipedia)

Beliefs do not need to be conscious, or articulate.

Jazz used the stereotype to identify the character as having a 'black' persona, as a 'shorthand' for being able to round out the character. However, at no point was Jazz made out to be less competent, or less brave, or less educated than his more 'culture-neutral' (i.e. 'standard' American) comrades. Some might argue that the fact he was black made him 'less important', and thereby easier to kill off. It's a longer bow to draw, but a case could probably be made. Not by me though.

Bay takes a group of elements of culture that are commonly associated with African-Americans (ebonics; jug ears, bulging eyes and buck teeth from older representations of african-americans; gold teeth), and create two characters who are caricatures of African-Americans. The problem is, they do so in such a way that make those caricatures appear lazy, infantile, uneducated, poorly-maintained, incompetent.

Robzy lifted some arguments from that article; I thought it might be instructive to include a link to the video clip of racist cartoons (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gH4ivOyO0PQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fenewsi.com%2Fnews.php%3Fcatid%3D 254%26itemid%3D15386&feature=player_embedded) as well.

It's the visual equivalent of a straw-man argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man_argument); create a caricature of an identifiable culture and make it appear foolish or absurd, then some of that apparent foolishness can then rub off on the authentic culture on which the caricature was based.

That it is done unwittingly does not excuse it - it merely demonstrates how ingrained racism is amongst many people.

We're still allowed to enjoy it (the film, not racism), but should ackowledge its shortcomings. It doesn't mean we have to refuse to see the movie, and wear ashes and sackcloth and beat ourselves up. It does mean we have to call it what it is.

TF:RotF is not the most racist movie ever made, nor is it the most sexist, nor the most violent. It does have identifiable elements of all of these things, and it behooves us all to at least be aware of them, as their effect on people's perception of others (in this case, minorities and women) is insidious and difficult to combat, particularly when the people propogating such stereotyping might be themselves unaware they are doing it. Particularly if they are doing it in an easily-dismissable way through robots, or a cartoon bunny rabbit.

GoktimusPrime
29th June 2009, 07:00 PM
As I said before, the racial element is there - but I don't find it offensive. Now Robzy brings up the argument that it's easy for us to say that we don't find it offensive since most of us here aren't black, so I'll bring up again another example which is relevant to my own ethnic group.

The Neimoidians in Star Wars are commonly seen based on racial stereotypes of Asians. They have slitted eyes, dress in "Oriental" robes (though a lot of characters dress in East-Asian influenced clothing, including the Jedi who are essentially Samurai with laser swords) and speak in a stereotypical "mushmouthed" Asian accent. The poor lip-syncing on the Neimoidian puppets in The Phantom Menace also gave the impression that they were being poorly dubbed as in many Asian films/shows. The stereotypes are plain for everyone to see. In fact, in one photocomic made by ToyFare parodying The Phantom Menace, we see the senators from Neimoidia scoot in on their flying platform delivering Chinese take-out, with the caption reading, "Don't blame us, that's actually how they talk in the movie!" :D Furthermore, the Neimoidians were portrayed as being a race of cowards - greedy and corrupt.


Neimoidians placed tremendous value on wealth, and would go to great lengths to gain money and power. However, they were very easily intimidated, and hated combat.
Link (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Neimoidian)
...such a comment is about as "racist" (or ridiculous) as saying that all Germans are anti-Semitic or that all Arabs are terrorists.

My Ethics and Education lecturer often referred to things like this as the "hidden curriculum" in children's literature. In one of his lectures he referred to the underlying racism in Tolkien; he argued that except for humans, most races in Middle Earth are intrinsically good or evil (unless they're corrupted by Sauron). For example, Elves are all good and Orcs are all evil. I like how Jetfire in RotF suggested that being an Autobot or Decepticon is an 'intensely personal choice'; establishing that their factions are political, not 'racial' (though it doesn't explain some of the typical cosmetic differences between Autobots and Decepticons, e.g. eye colour)

So as an Asian person, I can see the cheesy and corny Asian stereotypes in the Neimoidians, but I'm not at all bothered or offended by them. I find Jar Jar Binks to be far more offensive, and not because of his racial caricature against blacks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jar_Jar_Binks#Allegations_of_racial_caricature) but because, like G1 Wheelie, he's just a thoroughly annoying and canonically largely useless character!


That it is done unwittingly does not excuse it - it merely demonstrates how ingrained racism is amongst many people.
Which indicates to me that the problem lies with American society, rather than with Michael Bay, who I seriously doubt would've put any thought that these characters could be perceived as racist; I'm not saying that they're not, but I'm saying that it's just not something that he would've thought about.

I've heard from several people who've travelled to and live in the United States who tell me that racism (and even allegations of racial segregation) is still rife in the U.S. You just look at the huge deal that people are making about Barack Obama being the first half-black President - to me that indicates that race is still a massive issue to Americans. Afaik John So was the first Asian to be elected as Lord Mayor of Melbourne. As a NSW resident I never even heard about it - didn't even notice that was an Asian Mayor until I saw him on the news for something related to Melbourne (and nothing to do with his election victory). In fact, his Wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_So) makes no mention of this. I think it's simply because for most Australians, the former Lord Mayor's ethnicity is a non-issue. What the wikipedia page does talk about is the fact that he Lord Mayor of Melbourne to be directly elected by the people (previous Lord Mayors were elected by Councillors) - so it seems that Melbournians' affection toward him wasn't based on his ethnicity, but what he represented in terms of democracy.

Disclaimer: My comments about racism in the U.S. is purely based on second hand hearsay. Don't take any of this as gospel. Kaythanx.

SofaMan
29th June 2009, 07:30 PM
So as an Asian person, I can see the cheesy and corny Asian stereotypes in the Neimoidians, but I'm not at all bothered or offended by them.

You do however acknowledge that they represent a perjorative caricature of Asians (well, some Asians; they're clearly not intended to be Indian), which is all that's needed. They are not the worst or most offensive caricature of asians ever made, and any outrage should be proportionate.

The Neimoidians use very similar cultural elements to this cartoon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjLfyooJQEc).

Accepting that while something might not be personally offensive, it can still make other individual members of that culture feel ashamed, or foolish, or annoyed, or defensive, or apologetic, to a greater or lesser degree, without them having to be particularly delicate or sensitive.

Your comment about the hidden curriculum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidden_curriculum) makes the point well. We are all subject to subtle, insidious and unintended messages through a range of media that modify or reinforce certain viewpoints.

Robzy
29th June 2009, 10:51 PM
As I said before, the racial element is there - but I don't find it offensive. Now Robzy brings up the argument that it's easy for us to say that we don't find it offensive since most of us here aren't black
Well actually I've been saying it in ALL my posts on the subject! It's nothing new!


I like how Jetfire in RotF suggested that being an Autobot or Decepticon is an 'intensely personal choice'; establishing that their factions are political, not 'racial' (though it doesn't explain some of the typical cosmetic differences between Autobots and Decepticons, e.g. eye colour)

Yes, this was an EXCELLENT and PROVOCATIVE concept... and what happened with it? NOTHING - that's what! I thought at that moment that the writers were going to explore the philosophical aspects of the Transformers' free will (Wheelie, for example, didn't even realise that he could choose NOT to be a Decepticon) - but instead we just go back to more cheap gags and explosions!


So as an Asian person, I can see the cheesy and corny Asian stereotypes in the Neimoidians, but I'm not at all bothered or offended by them.

Well, that's your choice... whereas others MAY be offended. Is that not their right?

The fact that you can perceive the stereotype indicates that it is underlying, and therefore may cause offense.


I've heard from several people who've travelled to and live in the United States who tell me that racism (and even allegations of racial segregation) is still rife in the U.S.

Of course it is. Just research the debacle of the 2000 and 2004 elections and the dirty tricks used to deter black voters (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0922-03.htm)! It's horrifying!



You do however acknowledge that they represent a perjorative caricature of Asians (well, some Asians; they're clearly not intended to be Indian), which is all that's needed. They are not the worst or most offensive caricature of asians ever made, and any outrage should be proportionate.
100% agree!


Accepting that while something might not be personally offensive, it can still make other individual members of that culture feel ashamed, or foolish, or annoyed, or defensive, or apologetic, to a greater or lesser degree, without them having to be particularly delicate or sensitive.

Yes... That's why this thread/poll is flawed... how can any of us living in a country and culture so removed from this issue make an informed decision. Many people have just voted "No" - as in "no, I wasn't offended" which (as I've said since the beginning) isn't the point!

autobreadticon
29th June 2009, 11:02 PM
the American - "I'm surrounded by donkeys"

Judith - "that's nasty" after eating snail

BigPenney
30th June 2009, 12:18 AM
Although I can see were the people whom said yes are coming from I had to vote no because as other have stated, they appear to be more try-hards or white kids trying to imitate hip-hop culture.
Also when I saw Skids face up-close I recon he looked more like what I would call a stereotype of a redneck or hillbilly.
At least, that’s how it appears to me.:)

Tiby
30th June 2009, 07:41 AM
Everyone I have spoken to through they were rednecks.

In any event, how someone feels is their own decision, not someone else's doing. The US have been so wound up in blaming everyone else for everything, they they have forgotten that feelings are personal and are decisions made by the feeler. People choose to be offended, pure and simple.

Sadly, this PC mentality, like much of the US's worst traits, has made its way here.

1AZRAEL1
30th June 2009, 08:42 AM
I voted yes to racist. The characters come from a mean place. I read this thread and I am SURPRISED that it's okay to laugh at people because they are DIFFERENT.

Look at Skids and Mudflap they look different from the rest of the robotic cast and it's intentional.

So your saying we shouldn't be laughing at the Simpsons? Family Guy? Metalocaypse? Brady Bunch? Married With Children? Any other shows that use stereotypes?

I'll pick at Simpsons first. Apu is an Indian that runs a convenience store, nuff said. Comic Book Guy, hes fat, single, big scifi nerd, is that to say that all scifi nerds are fat and single?

Family Guy, has so many stereotypes used throughout the seasons, that I just can't be bothered to type them. I'm sure alot of people here watch it and know what I mean. It got cancelled after season 2 if I'm correct? And they brought it back because people find it funny.

Metalocalypse, sterotypes the metalhead. The creator is a metalhead. I am a metalhead and I find it hilarious. So do alot of people I know who watch it. But I know that there will be some metalhead out there with a pole up his clacker that will find offence in the show.

Brady Bunch is a stereotype on the typical american family of the time it came out. Don't really need to go into it.

Married With Children has Al sitting on the couch most of the time, drinking and watching TV. Plenty of things a stereotype of the typical family life of americans now, or what it is perceived to be.

I can go on about the religous sterotypes used in those shows, but that will open up a big can of worms.

The point I'm trying to make is, there are sterotypes in every facet of life. Someone will always be offended by something.

In my opinion, people just need to sit back and enjoy TV shows, movies, and the like for what they are, fun. Some people are just too uptight.

end rant.

Dylbot
30th June 2009, 09:37 AM
Metalocalypse, sterotypes the metalhead. The creator is a metalhead. I am a metalhead and I find it hilarious.
Metalocalypse and Dethklok f.t.w!:cool:

Lithium
30th June 2009, 11:49 AM
I voted no. I didn't think they were trying to portray the African-American culture. I reckon they were just a couple of try-hards. At the same time, you can say that bringing Jazz into the first movie was racist because of the way he portrayed African-Americans. Just because someone's black, it doesn't mean they talk like rappers. I've never yet met a black person who talks like that. Putting that aside, Jazz is my favorite character because I don't take his personality to be a poke at racism. And, I'm not gonna judge Mudflap's or Skid's personalities to be an act of racism either. I know it isn't.

GoktimusPrime
30th June 2009, 11:54 AM
Here's a stereotype that might hit closer to home: is anyone else sick of Americans portraying all Australians as ignorant, backward, bogan crocodile hunters who carry huge knives and yell "CRIKEY!"?? Sure annoys the hell out of me! One of Spider-Man's villains is entirely based around this stereotype... GRRRRR!

Fortunately Outback was never portrayed that way - his racial/cultural stereotyping was done in a more positive manner like Jazz or Blaster; i.e.: portrayed as an equal rather than as an inferior.



Sorry, I meant "now" as in, "Now here's my next point," not as in you've only been saying that now. Stupid written text and it's lack of intonation/inflection!! Grrr! (growling with falling inflection) :p

[quote=Robzy]Yes... That's why this thread/poll is flawed... how can any of us living in a country and culture so removed from this issue make an informed decision. Many people have just voted "No" - as in "no, I wasn't offended" which (as I've said since the beginning) isn't the point!
The poll question asks if we think that the twins are "horrible racist robots," not if we think that their portrayal itself is racist. Just because they behave in a manner that can be perceived as racially offensive doesn't mean that the characters themselves harbour such prejudice. If anything they came off as being more homophobic when one of them said, "Go cry to your boyfriend." Other than behaving in a stereotypical kind of way I don't recall seeing any evidence that shows that the twins themselves are actually racist.

This is different from say previous Transformers canon where they have viewed factions in the forms of being races and have shown prejudice toward each other, for example in Beast Wars when Rattrap says, "The only thing worse than a stinkin' Predacon is a stinkin' Decepticon." or the many number of times where Autobots and Decepticons have spoken of or about each other in such a manner. In fact, certain points of TF canon argues that the Transformers are not politically, but racially divided. For example, in G1 both Bludgeon and Grimlock argued that the 'good' and 'evil' aspects of being Autobot and Decepticon was intrinsic, and not as others like Optimus Prime, Prowl, Scorponok, Dinobot, movie-Jetfire etc. would argue, an "intensely personal choice." Grimlock once postulated that while Primus had intended on creating one race, he had inadvertantly created two. Bludgeon argued that being evil was "in our oil."

TF canon is conflicting because at times it portrays the morality as a choice but other times portays it as part of their nature. But each time canon portrays it as the latter it's like a form of subtle racism via a hidden curriculum.

It seems to be something that is built into story-telling from a long way back, such as Tolkien (whose stories are based on Old English and Norse literature), mythology from various culture and even religious texts.

I'm not saying that this excuses any of that of course. But yeah, while I can concede that the portrayal of these characters can be racist, I wouldn't agree that the characters themselves are racist, which is how I'd interpreted the poll question but I suspect you meant the former. :)

Lithium
30th June 2009, 11:59 AM
I half-agree with you, Goktimus. However, if you remember Maggie Madsen (played by Rachael Taylor) from TF1, she was Australian but they didn't portray her in that way. She was portrayed as smart, intuitive and persistent. She made us Aussies look good, if you ask me. :)

Ironhide63
30th June 2009, 12:02 PM
I half-agree with you, Goktimus. However, if you remember Maggie Madsen from TF1, she was Australian but they didn't portray her in that way. She was portrayed as smart, intuitive and persistent. She made us Aussies look good, if you ask me. :)

mmhmmm damn right...wait wait...sorry, thinking of something else. yea, some characters can be portrayed the wrong way, i think the twins were handled awesomely...and if they did it any different, it woulda put a cap on this movie's ass.

Lithium
30th June 2009, 12:05 PM
Lol I found the twins annoying but at the same time, they get the job done. *Shrugs* Yes, racism is predominant in America. So lets learn a lesson from the Americans and not make racism predominant here. This shouldn't even be an issue. Skids and Mudflap are just a couple of idiot Autobots. Lets leave it at that.

GoktimusPrime
30th June 2009, 01:13 PM
However, if you remember Maggie Madsen (played by Rachael Taylor) from TF1, she was Australian but they didn't portray her in that way. She was portrayed as smart, intuitive and persistent. She made us Aussies look good, if you ask me.
I don't think anyone has a problem with that. There's nothing wrong with portraying different people differently - it's a fact of life that we're all different. We have different accents, cultures, traditions, values etc.; and introducing elements of multiculturalism into Transformers isn't a bad thing on its own. Same with female Transformers - from a scifi POV it makes absolutely no sense, but of course they're trying to introduce feminism to broaden the appeal of the characters rather than having a bunch of overtly macho blokey robots running around urinating on secret agents. Rargh. To ignore cultural differences and pretend that we are all the same is in itself insulting. Equality doesn't mean that we don't have diversity.

The issue with the twins here isn't that they're portrayed as blacks, but that they're portrayed as blacks in a negative light; i.e.: portrayed as being stupid and inferior, and in a manner that is similar to how blacks were displayed mannerisms harking back to the "porch monkey" portrayal of blacks in what is now widely considered to be racist literature. Even Mark Twain's depiction of Jim (frequently referred to as "Nigger Jim") in The Adventures of Tom Sawyer and Adventures of Huckleberry Finn have been criticised as being racist. Tom Sawyer seems to view Jim with racist contempt... not so much Huck Finn though. But Jim is consistently portrayed as "simple and trusting, even gullible", such as when he failed to recognise the King and Duke a frauds and gave them control of the raft. But Huck Finn himself wasn't portrayed as racist and despite Jim's simple and gullible nature, the book does also portray him as a father figure for Huck whose, "...logic, compassion, intelligence, and above all, his loyalty toward Huck, Tom and his own family, establish him as a heroic figure." (Reference (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_(Huckleberry_Finn)))

“I doan’ hanker for no mo’ un um, Huck. Dese is all I kin stan’.” - Jim (Adventures of Huckleberry Finn)

Jazz and Blaster are also portrayed as blacks too (and played by black voice actors), but they were portrayed as equals to their fellow Autobots. Outback is also portrayed as an Australian, but not in a condescending manner that we see in other literature where Aussies are portrayed as beer-swilling bogans. The Simpsons episode where they go to Australia parodies the condescending stereotype that Americans hold toward Australians. And Maggie was also portrayed in a similar manner. No problem there.

So there's nothing wrong with being portrayed as being 'different,' it's the manner in which the difference is portrayed - i.e.: in an affirmative or negative fashion.

Jazz, Blaster, Cosmos, Perceptor, Outback, BW Silverbolt, BW Megatron, Maggie etc. are all characters portrayed in manners other than being 'white Americans,' but not in a negative or condescending fashion.


Skids and Mudflap are just a couple of idiot Autobots.
I agree. And as I said, I don't think that these characters are racist at all. I can concede that their portrayal can be perceived as racist though.

Sky Shadow
30th June 2009, 01:57 PM
Here's a stereotype that might hit closer to home: is anyone else sick of Americans portraying all Australians as ignorant, backward, bogan crocodile hunters who carry huge knives and yell "CRIKEY!"?? Sure annoys the hell out of me! One of Spider-Man's villains is entirely based around this stereotype... GRRRRR!

Do you mean Boomerang, Kangaroo or Ultimate Universe Kraven? (Spider-Man has a Monopoly on bad Australian stereotype villains.)

SofaMan
30th June 2009, 04:09 PM
So your saying we shouldn't be laughing at the Simpsons? Family Guy? Metalocaypse? Brady Bunch? Married With Children? Any other shows that use stereotypes?

The key point is not that stereotypes are used, but how they are used.

For example, he whole point about The Simpsons is everyone is a stereotype, and all are portrayed as being equally flawed. No race, profession or subculture is singled out for special derision. By being egalitarian about it, their claim to be mocking stereotypes (rather than buying into them) carries more weight.

Skids and Mudflap do not, in my view, fall into this category.

JuzMel
30th June 2009, 04:12 PM
There are heaps on the net. Here's one for starters... (http://www.bvblackspin.com/2009/06/25/dr-boyce-yes-the-transformers-movie-was-quite-racist/4)

That's my whole issue with this thread... personally I wasn't offened either. But clearly A LOT of black people are. That's the point, isn't it?

Ahhh I had a read at the article and now I can understand why they are displeased. Certainly M.B put in Mudflap and Skids to create some sort of entertainment / joke. But I guess he did it at the expense of the blacks.

Come to think of it, them starting out as those old ice-cream trucks weren't exactly the nicest thing to portray them. :rolleyes:

GoktimusPrime
30th June 2009, 07:39 PM
Do you mean Boomerang, Kangaroo or Ultimate Universe Kraven? (Spider-Man has a Monopoly on bad Australian stereotype villains.)
I was thinking Ultimate Kraven, but yes, those others are also just as terrible.

Another example of common-place 'hidden' (and often unintentional) racism is when people use the word "Aussie" as a synonym for white Australians (or more specifically, Australians of Anglo-Celtic decent). But this is usually done unintentionally and quite innocently.

So I don't get mad at individuals who do it without racist intent, but I am unhappy with the fact that it has become a somewhat ingrained part of Australian language and culture where many people refer to whites as "Australian" or "Aussie" as the 'default setting' and in a manner where it excludes others. As an Australian myself I really don't appreciate being excluded from being defined as "Aussie" simply because my ancestral roots don't come from the United Kingdom. The term should be used to include all Australians, irrespective of whatever our differences may be.

There certainly has been more to this thread than meets the eye! :)

Vector Sigma 13
30th June 2009, 08:06 PM
TF:RotF is not the most racist movie ever made, nor is it the most sexist, nor the most violent. It does have identifiable elements of all of these things, and it behooves us all to at least be aware of them, as their effect on people's perception of others (in this case, minorities and women) is insidious and difficult to combat, particularly when the people propogating such stereotyping might be themselves unaware they are doing it. Particularly if they are doing it in an easily-dismissable way through robots, or a cartoon bunny rabbit.

Well put Sofaman.

Vector Sigma 13
30th June 2009, 08:13 PM
Everyone I have spoken to through they were rednecks.

In any event, how someone feels is their own decision, not someone else's doing. The US have been so wound up in blaming everyone else for everything, they they have forgotten that feelings are personal and are decisions made by the feeler. People choose to be offended, pure and simple.

Sadly, this PC mentality, like much of the US's worst traits, has made its way here.


HEY! Im a Redneck and i have feelings too....:D


Anyway im of to milk the cows and walk around with a big hat and straw in my mouth.:p

1AZRAEL1
1st July 2009, 08:41 AM
The key point is not that stereotypes are used, but how they are used.

For example, he whole point about The Simpsons is everyone is a stereotype, and all are portrayed as being equally flawed. No race, profession or subculture is singled out for special derision. By being egalitarian about it, their claim to be mocking stereotypes (rather than buying into them) carries more weight.

Skids and Mudflap do not, in my view, fall into this category.

So because I laughed at them, does that make me racist? Does it make everyone else who laughed at it racist?

I still cant see how they are used in a racist way.

Another good example I could use would be the characters that Sacha Baron Cohen used. I'll stick with Ali G to prove my point.

I'm sure it offended people, but its not meant to be in offence. Its comedy. Its meant to be taken in jest, not serious.

Deceptic_Optic
1st July 2009, 09:39 AM
So because I laughed at them, does that make me racist? Does it make everyone else who laughed at it racist?

I still cant see how they are used in a racist way.

Another good example I could use would be the characters that Sacha Baron Cohen used. I'll stick with Ali G to prove my point.

I'm sure it offended people, but its not meant to be in offence. Its comedy. Its meant to be taken in jest, not serious.


i think we know this buy now that everyone finds something racist in all american movies specially with black do0odes. no black do0ode they would say its racist, there is a black do0o0de its still considered racist you just cant win.

1AZRAEL1
1st July 2009, 10:28 AM
i think we know this buy now that everyone finds something racist in all american movies specially with black do0odes. no black do0ode they would say its racist, there is a black do0o0de its still considered racist you just cant win.

Very true.

Someone will always find something offensive, whether it be race, religion, politics, music, etc.

I think what needs to happen is just people sit back and go, "It's just a movie" and enjoy it for that.

Deceptic_Optic
1st July 2009, 10:32 AM
Very true.

Someone will always find something offensive, whether it be race, religion, politics, music, etc.

I think what needs to happen is just people sit back and go, "It's just a movie" and enjoy it for that.

yeah man its just a movie! ... go decepticons! *lol... that was sooo random*

enforcer888
1st July 2009, 10:47 AM
If anything I thought they were mocking the white rapper 'urban' stereotype. Middle class kids who think the street is cool.

Gutsman Heavy
1st July 2009, 12:22 PM
When I saw the twins I though of this:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060803.jpg

NOT this:

http://souljonz.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/blackface_nocap.jpg

valkyrie_76
1st July 2009, 01:11 PM
Ahhhh Eminem...........I blame you (and maybe Areosmith with DMC doing 'Walk this Way') :D

Sometimes I think people see into things a little too much, like hearing the devil when you play an LP backwards, but thats just me.

roller
1st July 2009, 08:43 PM
http://souljonz.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/blackface_nocap.jpg

"Swanee how i love ya how i love ya"

SofaMan
1st July 2009, 09:15 PM
So because I laughed at them, does that make me racist? Does it make everyone else who laughed at it racist?

I laughed at them as well. Just because the characters as a whole have racist overtones, doesn't make every single thing they did unfunny, and doesn't make you a racist by extension. I've only ever said that we should acknowledge them as being essentially characters that take advantage of racist stereotypes, and specifically said that we should not over-react. They are not, by a very long way, the most offensive caricatures of black people every presented on the screen.

It is very important throughout this discussion that we keep what is said in proportion, and not create straw men. By putting forward my view that the characters are racist, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with that is a racist. I'm simply trying to make a reasoned case, and provide some evidence.


I'm sure it offended people, but its not meant to be in offence. Its comedy. Its meant to be taken in jest, not serious.

This is the most insidious form of racism - the kind people 'don't really mean' and is 'just a joke'. It may have been funny to you, and it may have been funny to me. I'm not immune to bad taste humour. That does not mean that everyone was quite so sanguine about the way they represent black culture. Since we were not the target of the caricatures in question, it is entirely understandable that we were not personally offended by them. I don't think there are any African-Americans who post on this board.

I'm a white heterosexual anglo-saxon male. I have rarely experienced prejudice against me personally for these reasons. People of different races, cultures, religions, sexualities and sexes have and continue to. I don't think it hurts us to try and be a little more aware of what different people around us might consider offensive, and conversely is always helps not to be too easily offended.

1AZRAEL1
1st July 2009, 09:39 PM
I laughed at them as well. Just because the characters as a whole have racist overtones, doesn't make every single thing they did unfunny, and doesn't make you a racist by extension. I've only ever said that we should acknowledge them as being essentially characters that take advantage of racist stereotypes, and specifically said that we should not over-react. They are not, by a very long way, the most offensive caricatures of black people every presented on the screen.

It is very important throughout this discussion that we keep what is said in proportion, and not create straw men. By putting forward my view that the characters are racist, I am not suggesting that anyone who disagrees with that is a racist. I'm simply trying to make a reasoned case, and provide some evidence.



This is the most insidious form of racism - the kind people 'don't really mean' and is 'just a joke'. It may have been funny to you, and it may have been funny to me. I'm not immune to bad taste humour. That does not mean that everyone was quite so sanguine about the way they represent black culture. Since we were not the target of the caricatures in question, it is entirely understandable that we were not personally offended by them. I don't think there are any African-Americans who post on this board.

I'm a white heterosexual anglo-saxon male. I have rarely experienced prejudice against me personally for these reasons. People of different races, cultures, religions, sexualities and sexes have and continue to. I don't think it hurts us to try and be a little more aware of what different people around us might consider offensive, and conversely is always helps not to be too easily offended.

I'm not meaning that you are saying that because we laughed at it, we are racist. Sorry I reread it and I can kinda see how it sounded lol.

But, I know some African-Americans who found it funny.

The point I'm trying to make is, we need to not take things so seriously.

I'm sure that there are some coloured people making jokes at white people.

And back to SBC with Borat, I know people have seen it, with the whole "Running of the Jews", some of them would have found that bad, but SBC himself is a Jew.

I can see how that was offensive, but it was still funny.

I really am trying to see Mudflap & Skidz as offensive, but I just cant.

(I know I will end up getting in trouble for this lol)

GoktimusPrime
2nd July 2009, 05:50 PM
I loved that episode of Seinfeld when George Costanza desperately tried to make friends with a black person to prove to his boss that he wasn't racist. George was lamenting that he didn't have any black friends and Jerry said something like, "You don't have any white friends either." :D

P.S.:

I'm sure that there are some coloured people making jokes at white people.
Better yet, a white person sending up white people (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp6eswhgOKk&feature=fvst) ;) :D

GoktimusPrime
5th October 2009, 01:09 PM
I recently found this article (http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/07/julie_white_on_robot_racism.html) where Julie White (Judy Witwicky) commented on the allegations of racism in ROTF. She says Bay's intention was to make the twins hip and "gangsta" so that kids could relate to them.


His intention was to be antic and amusing and, I think, like, street and cool. But those of us who are older were like, "What the hell is that!?"

Parental Discretion Advisory: Article contains some strong language.

Robzy
5th October 2009, 10:35 PM
I recently found this article (http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2009/07/julie_white_on_robot_racism.html) where Julie White (Judy Witwicky) commented on the allegations of racism in ROTF. She says Bay's intention was to make the twins hip and "gangsta" so that kids could relate to them.

Yeah, instead he just made them dumb and "ray-cist" so that a lot of black people could be offended.

Oh well... no biggie Mr Bay! I'm sure you'll come up with another grand nugget of comedy gold for TF3 :rolleyes:



Originally Posted by Julie White
I'm sure Michael wasn't trying to offend anyone. Kevin Dunn and I asked him about it and he said, "Well, it tested great with the kids."... I can't be the apologist for that big, damn movie. I had nothing to do with that....And the Blame Game continues... :rolleyes:

All you ever hear/read on this issue is... It was Bay's fault, it was the actors' fault, it was the writers' fault... geez who cares??!! :rolleyes: I wish Bay would just grow some effing DEVASTATOR BALLS and admit that it was a lousy attempt at "humour" that totally back-fired in his face!

kup
5th October 2009, 10:53 PM
All you ever hear/read on this issue is... It was Bay's fault, it was the actors' fault, it was the writers' fault... geez who cares??!! :rolleyes: I wish Bay would just grow some effing DEVASTATOR BALLS and admit that it was a lousy attempt at "humour" that totally back-fired in his face!

Unfortunately Bay considers ROTF a fantastic work of film making as he judges his films by the Box Office results which are massive. Since the studios only care about money, they are more likely to praise and encourage Bay rather than restrain him for the next movie.

SofaMan
6th October 2009, 10:04 AM
Unfortunately Bay considers ROTF a fantastic work of film making as he judges his films by the Box Office results which are massive. Since the studios only care about money, they are more likely to praise and encourage Bay rather than restrain him for the next movie.

I still maintain that ROTF only did as well as it did off of the back of TF1. People went to see it assuming it would be as good as the first one. I wonder how many people went and saw it multiple times, and if so how many times, compared to TF1. TF1 was 57% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes, RotF is 19%.

I think we'll get a reasonable indicator of how good RotF really was in people's minds when TF3 comes out. Once bitten, twice shy.

RagingBull
6th October 2009, 03:19 PM
yeah sure they act black but thats not racist...you dont call those pasty white kids who act black racist do you?

everyone i know laughed every time these guys did something. i loved them.

oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple

SofaMan
6th October 2009, 07:43 PM
yeah sure they act black but thats not racist...you dont call those pasty white kids who act black racist do you?

everyone i know laughed every time these guys did something. i loved them.

oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple

I don't think it's fair to just dismiss objections to the objectionable content of the film by saying it comes from "PC people". The old "love it or leave it" epithet doesn't hold much water either. The debate actually went into some depth on earlier pages, but to adress your specific points:

"Pasty white kids" have made a choice to adopt something about black culture that speaks to them as individuals. Whatever you may think of it (and it frequently is not held in high regard) they have not done it in order to mock it. When you take something on as part of your identity, you do it because you believe it represents something positive, in whatever sense that means to you - "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" etc. That is the context of what is taking place, and context is absolutely key to this discussion. If you disregard context, then the whole attempt to discuss this becomes pointless.

Skids and Mudflap are characters, not real people who've made personal choices. Someone (either the writers, or Bay, or both) designed them to be what they are. They speak in ebonics, mock the ability to read, have jug ears, gold teeth, bulging eyes. This is part of the cultural 'coding' that has been used for decades to make African-Americans appear ridiculous, like a lower kind of person.

I'd encourage you to read "Robots in Blackface (http://enewsi.com/news.php?catid=254&itemid=15386)". It's a good deconstruction of some of the issues taking place.

Those of us, like Robzy, myself and others, who've taken the trouble of critiquing these unwelcome Bayisms in TF1 and RotF do so because we love Transformers, and we don't want to see it debased into something sour and awful because some blinkered white heterosexual male frat-boy with a camera thinks it might make a few bucks. I don't want an Optimus Prime who is a face-shredding genocidal maniac. I don't want Transformers who implicitly mock real humans with real feelings. And mildly amusing as it may have been in the context of the film, I don't particularly want Transformers who fart parachutes or hump legs or have testicles. Because Transformers does not need these things in order to tell a good, worthy, action-packed, funny and enjoyable story. All of these examples really tell a huge amount about how little respect Bay has for the story he's telling, and the people he shares a world with (i.e. anyone who has grown beyond 15-year-old male power fantasies).

OrionPax
6th October 2009, 09:50 PM
Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.

SofaMan
6th October 2009, 10:10 PM
Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.

I agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.

It's the Black and White Minstrel show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) with robots.

Robzy
7th October 2009, 12:09 AM
oh and PC people there. if you dont like it dont watch it. simple
Seriously, I think you should go back and read this thread in more detail before you post statements like this.

I'm not going to sit here and paraphrase everyone's POV on this subject (including mine), suffice it to say that I was not personally offended by the Twins... but I can see how some people around the world were. I think anyone with a reasonable amount of intelligence and compassion would be able to discern the racial subtext and empathise with those who feel insulted, even if they don't necessarily agree.

The key issue is context, which SofaMan explained comprehensively 3 posts back.



Don't think thats racist...It's just Bay trying (and failing) to introduce some 'hip' characters to be popular among children. But I would agree that they are a poor choice on characters.
I agree that's what he tried to do, and while doing it completely failed to understand (or understood and didn't care) that what he was doing was buying into over a century of racist stereotypes.

It's the Black and White Minstrel show (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show) with robots.
Agreed! Ignorance is not a defence for Bay.

GoktimusPrime
7th October 2009, 09:57 AM
It's as if Bay was trying to make the twins "gangsta" but instead gave us Autobot Amos and Andy. :p

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/avatars/nigahiga_pwned.jpg

RagingBull
7th October 2009, 07:22 PM
i read the article, pretty interesting, especially the examples, since im a fan of loony toons and bugs bunny.

white people incorporate black culture (music, look, slang etc) into their own personality because they like it and want to emulate it. from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.

and other characters in the movie such a wheelie and jetfire being based on stereotypes, i thought they were awesome. i love them both as characters. im part italian and didnt get offended by wheelie being the joe pesci of transformers or jetfire being and old scottish like my girlfriends grandad i thought it was cool that he had that personality.

and my statement about dont like it dont watch it, for me still stands and no amount of arguing will convince me otherwise, (i stand by it so dont bother attacking me on that)

kup
7th October 2009, 08:53 PM
So if I want to admire American black culture, I have to celebrate illiteracy?

SofaMan
7th October 2009, 11:53 PM
from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.

But the twins aren't "acting black"; they aren't acting at all. They haven't "chosen" to adopt a "black personality" (you may like to think about what that actually means - e.g. how would you define a "white personality"?), because they are characters who are not real. Their dialogue and spoken mannerisms were created by writers, their appearances were developed by concept artists and animators. They are celluloid fantasies with no volition, only the appearance of such they were given by their creators. This is critical to understanding the issue.

Since you've read the article, I'm going to draw out a specific quote that I think has relevance, particularly to your claim that the creators "didn't intend" the characters to be racist (emphasis mine):



Here I quote an article by Sandy Cohen, of the Associated Press.

Hollywood has a track record of using negative stereotypes of black characters for comic relief, said Todd Boyd, a professor of popular culture at the University of Southern California's School of Cinematic Arts, who has not seen the "Transformers" sequel.

"There's a history of people getting laughs at the expense of African-Americans and African-American culture," Boyd said. "These images are not completely divorced from history even though it's a new movie and even though they're robots and not humans."
American cinema also has a tendency to deal with race indirectly, said Allyson Nadia Field, an assistant professor of cinema and media studies at the University of California, Los Angeles.

"There's a persistent dehumanization of African-Americans throughout Hollywood that displaces issues of race onto non-human entities," said Field, who also hasn't seen the film. "It's not about skin color or robot color. It's about how their actions and language are coded racially."
If these characters weren't animated and instead played by real black actors, "then you might have to admit that it's racist," Robinson said. "But stick it into a robot's mouth, and it's just a robot, it's OK."


Racism is rarely shown by characters getting into their KKK duds and lynching a few black people. Racism is usually far more subtle:


Racism’s influence is pervasive, adaptive, and malignant. That’s how it survives. It is about, division, control, and bondage.

I have noticed one thing throughout this thread; it's subtle and implicit, but it's there. Those of us here (which is most of us) are very invested in Transformers; we want it to be successful, and seen by others as a success. That success for many of us validates a chunk of our lives. As a result, we sometimes try to defend the indefensible because we feel like if we don't, we're not "sticking up for Transformers", and thereby not sticking up for a part of ourselves. It actually took me several weeks to feel okay about coming out and saying that I really didn't like RotF - I wanted to, I tried to use those few impressive moments in the film to convince myself that I did like it. But the more I thought about it, the more I felt I couldn't justify those few entertaining moments outweighing the disgraceful portrayals of women, black people, and Autobots generally (they seemed to take more glee in killing than the Decepticons did).

I think it is important to be counted among those who do not support or defend Michael Bay's intolerant and jaundiced vision of what Transformers is. I will validate my love of Transformers by standing up for those parts that reflect something worthy about the human experience.

SofaMan
7th October 2009, 11:53 PM
So if I want to admire American black culture, I have to celebrate illiteracy?

This absolutely nails what I was talking about in my last post. Thanks kup.

GoktimusPrime
8th October 2009, 09:45 AM
I like ROTF in spite of its flaws. There's been subtle racism since G1 (e.g.: suggestions of Autobots & Decepticons as separate races, one inherently good the other evil; one reason why I'm not fond of the blue-red eye division between Autobots and Decepticons in the G1 cartoon :/) but I still love Transformers in spite of it. Ditto The Lord of the Rings and many such fantasy lore which I enjoy despite in-built prejudices (why are there no evil elves or good orcs?).

And to give ROTF some credit, it did work against in-built racism when Jetfire (and Wheelie) defected and Jetfire explicitly explained that being an Autobot or Decepticon was a conscious and deliberate choice (and therefore not a "racial" thing). It's a shame that this is undone by the Twins and also by the whole "blue eye red eye" division (although Frenzy had blue eyes!).

But what's been done is done. I wonder what writers can do to salvage the twins in the next movie. What would you do? Visually I suppose there isn't much - their look has already been established. I would try to tone down or remove all the negative black stereotypes and try to push them toward more positive ones. If Bay truly intended for the Twins to be gangsta then let's make them gangsta! That was what Jazz was more like and there wasn't anything racially villifying about that character... other than ya know, being the first Autobot to get killed. :p

Ode to a Grasshopper
8th October 2009, 10:08 AM
But what's been done is done. I wonder what writers can do to salvage the twins in the next movie. What would you do? Visually I suppose there isn't much - their look has already been established. I would try to tone down or remove all the negative black stereotypes and try to push them toward more positive ones.Transformers 3: Robot House - Skids and Mudflap go to College.
Oh, wait, positive stereotypes...:p

Robzy
8th October 2009, 10:15 AM
And to give ROTF some credit, it did work against in-built racism when Jetfire (and Wheelie) defected and Jetfire explicitly explained that being an Autobot or Decepticon was a conscious and deliberate choice (and therefore not a "racial" thing). It's a shame that this is undone by the Twins and also by the whole "blue eye red eye" division Not to mention it was also undone by the fact that Jetfire farted a parachute and Wheelie humped Megan Fox's leg!! :rolleyes:

Good ol' Bay... anytime any characters start showing some substance, he makes them do something which undermines it and disengages the audience!

Robzy
8th October 2009, 10:35 AM
white people incorporate black culture (music, look, slang etc) into their own personality because they like it and want to emulate it. from what i see the twins doing by acting black in the movie, its the same concept, they have come to earth and adopted "black" personality because they thinks its cool and they want to emulate it. i honestly dont think it was the twins or creators (writters/directors/ animators) intention of adopting black personality as an insult to black people.But another key issue here is that it WAS insulting, even if it was done through ignorance!

Here's another more recent example...

The following story is hitting the news at the moment and apparently attracting worldwide condemnation of Australia as a racist country... Now, I didn't see it myself, and I've only seen the reports... but last night this "blackfaces" skit (http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/872955/uproar-over-hey-hey-blackfaces-sketch) was on the Hey Hey it's Saturday Reunion. Watch the clip, read the article, and listen to the American's opinion of it all!

SofaMan
8th October 2009, 10:36 AM
Not strictly related, but certainly plays to similar issues. Seems there was a controversy on Red Faces last night (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/10/08/2707994.htm?section=justin).

I do love some of the comments though - "The guy was Indian, so how could it be racist?!" :rolleyes:

Robzy
8th October 2009, 10:38 AM
Beat you to it SofaMan! ;)

I've posted a link to the video itself too, so people can watch and judge for themselves.

SofaMan
8th October 2009, 10:54 AM
By mere seconds... :p

Tiby
8th October 2009, 11:39 AM
I still don't get the offended thing. It is not my job to prevent other people from feeling negative things. If they want to be offended, they will be, and there is something in them that validates that feeling. If they didn't need that, they would not be offended. It's about time people started taking responsibility for their own feelings rather than projecting responsibility onto others, including the media, "role models", peer groups etc.

As for celebrating illiteracy, look at any mainstream film where the "cool" people shun education and celebrate "coolness", success by diminishing others, etc. This is a fact of the media. Anyone who celebrates education is labelled a nerd, an outcast, etc. Now, people can either accept that or reject that, and in doing so choose whether they should be offended or not.

If the media is to be blamed for promoting prejudice, it is the consumption of that media which validates it. Just because some movie robots are interpreted by some as being racially prejudiced (which I personally did not see until I heard others complaining) does not mean I am going to be prejudiced against African-Americans, gangstas or whatever they were trying to be.

I saw Mudflap as a hero, resilient and competent, for the way he punished Devastator, and the rest of his character was bluster and role-playing, like most people do. Sure, these aren't real people who made this choice, they in my view the Twins represent real people who make that choice.

Forcing people to change their views or take responsibility for what you are feeling can be just as offensive as the reasons for the offence taken by the first person.

Having said that, I too am disappointed in the way the movies are turning out, but the comics have shown oppressive, genocidal Autobots for some time, and this was, after all, a "blockbuster", not a fan film.

kup
8th October 2009, 12:03 PM
I can see why people see the twins as racially offensive but I personally did not take it as such. However I am more offended at the toilet humor and soft porn shots.

Having said that, Bay is smart enough to know that his creations, 'the twins' would cause unwanted controversy.

GoktimusPrime
8th October 2009, 02:54 PM
And there's been Autobot oppression and genocide in the G1 cartoon as well.
e.g.
+ S.O.S. Dinobots: Optimus Prime authorises the creation of the Dinobots, but when they turn out to be violent brutes, he decides to imprison them in a cave - forever! So much for freedom being the right of all sentient beings eh. (although the Dinobots at the time were arguably semi-sentient)
+ Dai Atlas: _extremely_ violent and genocidal Autobot commander! Kinda reminds me of Lancelot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBnL4Rj6V8M) from Monty Python and the Holy Grail; "He killed my auntie!" (yeah okay, Lancelot was more blindly homicidal rather than genocidal - genocide requires discriminate killing whereas Lancelot was very much indiscriminate in his destruction :D)

kup
8th October 2009, 08:07 PM
And there's been Autobot oppression and genocide in the G1 cartoon as well.
e.g.
+ S.O.S. Dinobots: Optimus Prime authorises the creation of the Dinobots, but when they turn out to be violent brutes, he decides to imprison them in a cave - forever! So much for freedom being the right of all sentient beings eh. (although the Dinobots at the time were arguably semi-sentient)
+ Dai Atlas: _extremely_ violent and genocidal Autobot commander! Kinda reminds me of Lancelot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBnL4Rj6V8M) from Monty Python and the Holy Grail; "He killed my auntie!" (yeah okay, Lancelot was more blindly homicidal rather than genocidal - genocide requires discriminate killing whereas Lancelot was very much indiscriminate in his destruction :D)

I don't think Bay had previous fictional lore in mind when he created the twins.

GoktimusPrime
9th October 2009, 10:16 AM
The term "blackface" is being thrown around a lot in the media atm following that controversial Hey Hey skit. But anyway, here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackface) is the wiki article about it if anyone wants to read about its history.

GoktimusPrime
5th December 2009, 04:16 PM
Here's another can of worms: are the twins (or at least one of them) also homophobic? One line that one of the twins (I think it's Mudflap) says to Leo Spitz as he's having a whinge is something along of the lines of "Go cry to your boyfriend."

Is this a homophobic comment? It was delivered as a response to Leo demonstrating weakness, thus implying that any person visibly showing such heightened emotions (i.e.: being a "pussy" as one of the twins also called him) must be homosexual, and therefore implying that homosexuals are highly strung emotional people who are arguably weak in fortitude. In short it's playing along with the gay "queen" stereotype and also using homosexuality as a synonym for stupidity/negativity (as it's like saying to Leo, "Don't be so gay.").

SofaMan
5th December 2009, 05:52 PM
Here's another can of worms: are the twins (or at least one of them) also homophobic? One line that one of the twins (I think it's Mudflap) says to Leo Spitz as he's having a whinge is something along of the lines of "Go cry to your boyfriend."

Is this a homophobic comment? It was delivered as a response to Leo demonstrating weakness, thus implying that any person visibly showing such heightened emotions (i.e.: being a "pussy" as one of the twins also called him) must be homosexual, and therefore implying that homosexuals are highly strung emotional people who are arguably weak in fortitude. In short it's playing along with the gay "queen" stereotype and also using homosexuality as a synonym for stupidity/negativity (as it's like saying to Leo, "Don't be so gay.").

I'd have to agree that it is homophobic. It's just one more tick on the List of Wrong that the twins represent. The nearest to a defense that you can come to for the twins is they are not presented as being particularly competent, considerate or experienced, and consequently not figures to emulate. They are however portrayed (well, attempted) as being funny/likeable, which kind of undoes their un-emulatability.

Michael Bay is an asshat. I mean, I knew he was an asshat before the first movie, but he delivered the goods that time. It's almost like he was getting us to let our guard down so he could blind and horrify us with asshattery the second time round.

Gutsman Heavy
5th December 2009, 06:01 PM
I believe that's called smack talk, it shouldn't be all hugs and kisses.

Starscream212
5th December 2009, 11:01 PM
Voted No, they are just taking on a sterotype like all the other transformers as explained by Prime in the first movie.

kup
6th December 2009, 01:55 AM
Here's another can of worms: are the twins (or at least one of them) also homophobic? One line that one of the twins (I think it's Mudflap) says to Leo Spitz as he's having a whinge is something along of the lines of "Go cry to your boyfriend."

Is this a homophobic comment? It was delivered as a response to Leo demonstrating weakness, thus implying that any person visibly showing such heightened emotions (i.e.: being a "pussy" as one of the twins also called him) must be homosexual, and therefore implying that homosexuals are highly strung emotional people who are arguably weak in fortitude. In short it's playing along with the gay "queen" stereotype and also using homosexuality as a synonym for stupidity/negativity (as it's like saying to Leo, "Don't be so gay.").

I don't think that it was intended to be intentionally homophobic but it does reflect Bay's jock attitude.

GoktimusPrime
6th December 2009, 09:01 AM
Just to clarify it was Skids who said, "Ah, go whine to your boyfriend."


I don't think that it was intended to be intentionally homophobic but it does reflect Bay's jock attitude.
Well it's similar to kids who go around using the word "gay" as a synonym for something stupid/negative without necessarily being consciously aware that it denigrades homosexuals. It seems to be part of Michael Bay's juvenile sense of humour alongside pissing, farting, humping, exposed testicles, random drug use, sexual harassment etc., he's like a child who tries to make these jokes that he sees as funny, some of which borderline being discriminatory, but he seems to lack the maturity to be aware of it or perhaps just doesn't care. In the DVD special features and commentary Bay describes his jokes as things that he finds funny and criticises anyone who doesn't like them as simply being humourles killjoys. This refusal to barely acknowledge criticisms about his jokes can make him appear arrogant.

That's not to say that there are no funny moments in the movies, but I suspect that the better jokes are the ones made by the writers (Orci & Kurtzman) whereas the tackier ones are from Bay. We know that things like the humping and Devastator's balls were Bay's ideas. Some better humourous moments were like the tanked guy telling Sam to move his car and Sam telling him to find a tighter shirt and the other guy's mate saying that there is no tighter shirt, they've checked. See... that was funny without being crass! Ditto Sam's "time out" with Mikaela in the library. Some of the funnier moments were also just made up by the actors via adlibbing between takes, such as in the first movie when Sam trying to show off his muscles while pointing to things in his car as well as the "Sam's happy time" reference.

Tiby
6th December 2009, 12:06 PM
He should have said "Go whine to your mum" which would have the intended effect in a less derogatory way.

Seraphim Prime
7th December 2009, 08:47 AM
Just to clarify it was Skids who said, "Ah, go whine to your boyfriend."

I didn't really see the twins as racist or homophobic. I saw that comment in particular as the equivalent of calling Leo a girl. As in he's whinging and wining, therefore he's a girl, therefore he has a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend.

Overall I saw the twins as people trying hard to show that they can keep up with the other bigger, cooler Transformers (kinda as it explains in one of their card bios). As a result they trash-talk, over-exert themselves, and generally talk tough, but don't follow through in their actions, until Mudflap fights his way out of Devastators mouth.

Sky Shadow
7th December 2009, 08:57 AM
I didn't really see the twins as racist or homophobic. I saw that comment in particular as the equivalent of calling Leo a girl. As in he's whinging and wining, therefore he's a girl, therefore he has a boyfriend instead of a girlfriend.

So it's sexist then, rather than homophobic? :rolleyes:

Seraphim Prime
7th December 2009, 09:16 AM
So it's sexist then, rather than homophobic? :rolleyes:

It's a choice between the demon and the devil, but fits better with the bluster and trash talk attitude that Bay gave them rather than trying to bring homophobia into it.

GoktimusPrime
7th December 2009, 05:25 PM
...erm yeah, I'm not sure if misogyny is any better than homophobia. :/

Gutsman Heavy
7th December 2009, 11:27 PM
I'm all for having Autobots that aren't all squeaky clean. Even if they are homophobic wiggers. Makes 'em more real as characters IMO.

Even if they are stupid.

SofaMan
8th December 2009, 12:15 AM
I'd argue that Bay puts women and gays in the same moral sphere - whether the Twins are implicitly calling Leo gay, or calling him a woman, it is clear that either of those things is not something you would want to be in BayWorld.

Gay = Bad
Woman = Bad
Black = marginally less bad than gays or women (since they are still all men in this movie), but still largely only useful for wisecracking.

SofaMan
8th December 2009, 12:20 AM
I'm all for having Autobots that aren't all squeaky clean. Even if they are homophobic wiggers. Makes 'em more real as characters IMO.

Even if they are stupid.

Which wouldn't even bother me so much if there was one other character in the movie who calls them out on their bulls**t. But every other character just lets it slide, like it's a perfectly normal and acceptable way to treat people.

It was something like the joy I experienced when Judi Dench started playing M in the Bond movies. First time out, she basically calls Bond out for being arrogant, sexist, sociopathic and misogynistic. It was gold, and long overdue.

Seraphim Prime
9th December 2009, 10:22 PM
Black = marginally less bad than gays or women (since they are still all men in this movie), but still largely only useful for wisecracking.

Or bringing the rain. :)


Also agree with what you say of Judi Dench's M. Perhaps if Orci and the other one didn't have to join the writers strike they could have added Prime saying something about Ratchet needing to fix their vocal emitters as well as Bumblebee's.

langzixinxin
11th December 2009, 11:27 AM
I don't know if they are, but it doesn't matter. I just don't like them, either their figure in movie or toy, robo mode or car mode, talking or behaving, none of the any aspects I like.


My opinion, they should not have been in movie at all. And they talked too much. And their faces are just ugly.

I don't even want the toy for free.

kup
11th December 2009, 11:33 AM
Early on production, Orci pitched in a fan made suggestion to Bay of having Sunstreaker & Sideswipe vs Runamuck & Runabout in a car chase battle.

It was turned down in favor of the retard twins - Bay was born to direct Transformers.

Starscream212
12th December 2009, 09:09 PM
Damn that would have been awsome a huge 4 car chase battle scene :(

5FDP
12th December 2009, 11:29 PM
Within the Transformers 07 movie special features DVD disc, Michael Bay did say no more car chase scenes for a while (after filming the Bonecrusher vs. Optimus highway chase) which would have possibly ruled this out for ROTF.

Robzy
13th December 2009, 09:08 AM
Within the Transformers 07 movie special features DVD disc, Michael Bay did say no more car chase scenes for a while I'm glad he did... he doesn't shoot car chases very well IMO!

Gutsman Heavy
13th December 2009, 12:57 PM
I'm glad he did... he doesn't shoot car chases very well IMO!

in Bays defence he doesn't shoot anything well. Except chicks bent over.

Sky Shadow
14th December 2009, 01:31 PM
I was at my parents' place on the weekend and their neighbours and their five year-old son came over. He wanted to "play Transformers" (he wanted to pretend to be Bumblebee and punch me in the knees and play fight while I pretended to be Decepticons.) So I imitated Starscream... Megatron... The Fallen... and so on. After he's killed all my Decepticons I was clearly running out of characters to imitate, but thanks to this thread I had at least one more up my sleeve. "Yo! I'm Skids! I can't read! I have a gold tooth! I'm a hideous racist stereoty...!"

Then Bumblebee killed me - his own teammate. Fair enough, really.