*SPOILERS* Freedom is the right of all sentient beings...

[Tiby]

Please tell me if I missed something here, but I cannot come to grips with the beginning of the movie.

Just what exactly was Demolishor and Sideways doing wrong? All of the destruction they cause is because they are escaping the Autobots and the military.

And the way Prime finished the job left me reeling. I'm not being "That's not my G1 Prime *sob* *sob*", but he continually acknowledges through both movies that humans have compassion and are a species worth protecting. Further, in the first movie, he criticises Megatron for doing exactly what he just did to Demolishor.

There is no doubt that the Decepticons are painted in a particularly evil light in the movies, but this is a construction vehicle and a sports car, not military vehicles or robot infiltrators (Soundwave, Ravage, Scorponok, Frenzy). Further, looking at their bios on the toys, Demolishor is a protector of a group of smaller Decepticons, including Sideways, who come across as refugees to me.

Sure, they throw in Demolishor's last words to try and tie him in to some kind of stereotypical (and perhaps racist) holy war concept, but at that point I felt like: "Yeah! The Transformers need a saviour from these brutal Autobots".

[Tober]

Exactly what I thought, many others too. I actually felt quite strongly about it too, and arn't most cars autobots.. and Sideways a double agent?

If the Autobots knew they were searching for something why not capture one for interrigation? Especially after hearing the threat. After Sideswipe back-stabbed Sideways he could have easily been subdued...

Poor Sideways :(

<Goes off to play the game and play as Sideways>

Poor Ravage too (he only wanted to play*). The scene with Ravage left me cold too... reminded me of the footage of bogans torturing kittens a few years ago.

And what's this obsession Prime has with ripping Con's faces apart!? :eek:

At the end I just have to remind myself: ALTERNATIVE UNIVERSE! Even if it is our own :(

* This is a lie.

[Deceptic_Optic]

Please tell me if I missed something here, but I cannot come to grips with the beginning of the movie.

Just what exactly was Demolishor and Sideways doing wrong? All of the destruction they cause is because they are escaping the Autobots and the military.

And the way Prime finished the job left me reeling. I'm not being "That's not my G1 Prime *sob* *sob*", but he continually acknowledges through both movies that humans have compassion and are a species worth protecting. Further, in the first movie, he criticises Megatron for doing exactly what he just did to Demolishor.

There is no doubt that the Decepticons are painted in a particularly evil light in the movies, but this is a construction vehicle and a sports car, not military vehicles or robot infiltrators (Soundwave, Ravage, Scorponok, Frenzy). Further, looking at their bios on the toys, Demolishor is a protector of a group of smaller Decepticons, including Sideways, who come across as refugees to me.

Sure, they throw in Demolishor's last words to try and tie him in to some kind of stereotypical (and perhaps racist) holy war concept, but at that point I felt like: "Yeah! The Transformers need a saviour from these brutal Autobots".

*Deceptic_Optics steps up* YEAAAAAh, decepticons are bloody victims of those bloody autobots they made the decepticons look bad but its actually them... them who went after each one of the decepticons and hunt them down to the ground, its just right for the decepticons to fight back *cos we are not push overs!* and planned a strategy to retaliate from them so you cant really blame megatron and the fallen to have revenge on those autobots its because of the autobots that made the decepticons evil!

[loophole]

my thoughts exactly, i was actually in shock when i first saw that

"Freedom is the right of all sentient beings, except Decepticon scum" lol

[Tober]

Also didn't Prime send out some message at the end of the first movie - inviting Autobots?

And Jetfire and Wheelie changed sides...

[SofaMan]

Prime was particularly sparkthirsty through the movie. Almost genocidal actually. Any violence he engaged in earlier incarnations was undertaken reluctantly, and seldom initiated by him. This time around, it was almost like state-sanctioned ethnic cleansing.

And also - because the US Government has problems with what the Autobots were doing, they were going to leave the planet? We all know Bay is one of the Manifest Destiny, "America, F*** Yeah!" types, but jeez, they couldn't have tried something like "Screw you, we'll base ourselves in Australia then!"?

Maybe the idea that the US of A != Planet Earth genuinely didn't actually occur to him.

[Tiby]

I had hoped that somehow the Autobots would recognise what they are doing and pull-back. It had been 2 years of fighting, so maybe they had crossed the line through inertia. When Jetfire discussed changing sides I thought that would lead into the fix, but sadly not.

I'm not saying this had to be a thinking movie, but still, these were pretty obvious emotions on the parts of the characters.

[MV75]

http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20090626.html

:)

Anyway, don't forget that the fallen/decepticons wanted to blow up our sun and break the "law" surrounding energon creation.

But speaking of which, they didn't seem to think about that one too well as earth would have been vaporised with them on it..... They should have built the machine on like, venus.....

[Gutsman Heavy]

Poor Demolishor and Sideways, (My fav 'cons in ROTF) brutally murdered by the corrupt Autobot regime!

They were just hiding peacefully (probably plotting to hug lots of puppies!) until the Autobots rocked up to murder them, and even when the attack started they just tried to flee for their lives! Autobots are cold hearted bastards!

[griffin]

I agree that it was too blood-thirsty for Optimus, and I can't believe Peter Cullen and that Japanese Designer (forgot his name, but gave Bay a statue award of some sort recently) don't seem to have a problem with this new portrayal of Optimus (and to a lesser extent, Megatron, who is the first Megatron in our 25 year history to be a willing subserviant). Or at least, they can't say anything publically against this corruption of the two classic institutions of Transformers.

Although, in relation to hunting down the Decepticons, it was mostly the objective of the US military for the purpose of national security to erradicate them (before they become a threat again). I just think that the Autobots were portrayed as a little too keen and battle hungry, and seemed too 'Decepticon-ish' to me.

Autobots capture, not kill. Especially when the opponant has been contained/neutralised.

While on the topic of Megatron being a willing slave with no ulterior motive to take over... If he really is the brother of Optimus (seems official, according to the comics), surely it makes him a 'Prime' as well, as Optimus was one for being a descendant of one. And therefore, Optimus wasn't the last Prime, and The Fallen should have been fearful of Optimus AND Megatron.

[griffin]

Poor Demolishor and Sideways, (My fav 'cons in ROTF) brutally murdered by the corrupt Autobot regime!

They were just hiding peacefully (probably plotting to hug lots of puppies!) until the Autobots rocked up to murder them, and even when the attack started they just tried to flee for their lives! Autobots are cold hearted bastards!

The prequel comic (Alliance) show most of the Decepticons who came to Earth after the first movie, were killing a lot of people and causing a lot of destruction. It's only natural that those offenders needed to be neutralised, and strategically it is better to do it while they are inactive, by way of a surprise attack.

But I think it would have been better if the script had even mentioned that these Decepticons had been recently responsible for deaths and destruction, and they were moving in to neutralise the threat. But no... Bay just wants all characters to go in with all guns blazing, with no concern about character consistency... :mad:

[Tiby]

This is what new fans are being taught about these iconic characters.... shame.

[RageOnTheRoads]

Yeah Schwarzenegger Prime = serious 0____0 moment for me.

I guess my shock stemmed from the fact that I had read both the comic and the novel before I saw the movie. Both adaptations depicted Prime in his typical violence shunning/reflecting on the pointlessness of war way. So when Prime dropped a Arnie/Stallone one liner and then blew Demolisher away I was a tad taken back... and not in a good way.

Guess Bay still hasn't figured out that its pretty pointless to fight for freedom, justice and all that is good, if you can't uphold -or loose sight of- the very values you supposedly stand for.:rolleyes:

[Gutsman Heavy]

The prequel comic (Alliance) show most of the Decepticons who came to Earth after the first movie, were killing a lot of people and causing a lot of destruction. It's only natural that those offenders needed to be neutralised, and strategically it is better to do it while they are inactive, by way of a surprise attack.

But I think it would have been better if the script had even mentioned that these Decepticons had been recently responsible for deaths and destruction, and they were moving in to neutralise the threat. But no... Bay just wants all characters to go in with all guns blazing, with no concern about character consistency... :mad:

that makes sense, the movie really should have stated that!

[GoktimusPrime]

Raksha'd! :p JKZ

I agree with what Ben Yee said in his review that movie Prime is different from Prime typically seen in G1 and is more similar to Optimus Prime from Transformers The Movie, where he single-handedly mowed down the Decepticons who were invading Autobot City. I suppose the difference is that in TFTM, the Decepticons were already attacking Autobot City and had killed numerous Autobots - Optimus Prime had come to liberate Autobot City and thus offing all those Decepticons was a means to that end.

But then... I suppose that if any Decepticons were coming to Earth as refugees or not wanting to partake in the war any further, then they could either defect to the Autobots (as Jetfire and Wheelie did) or declare neutrality. The fact that they're still allying themselves as Decepticons naturally makes them targets to the Autobot-human Alliance who are hunting them down. Don't want to be hunted? Quit being a Decepticon.

Jetfire and Wheelie's defection illustrates that it's not a 'racial' thing but, as Jetfire put it, a conscious choice to be Autobot or Decepticon. Though the eye-colour thing seems to contradict that (although Frenzy did have blue eyes in TF1 - and Ironhide's an ex-Decepticon of sorts).

I personally see movie Prime as being a lot like Dai Atlas from G1. He realises that in order to end the war quickly and decisively, he cannot afford to show compassion to the enemy. Though overriding compassion was a defining trait of G1 Optimus Prime, so I can see how people would feel that he's not "my Optimus Prime."

At the end of the day, it's a different continuity and different character from G1 anyway. And Optimus Prime isn't the only character in the movie universe whose persona differs from his original. Since when was Jolt an Autobot?!? (o_O)

[Tiby]

It's not so much that he is a different character in a different universe, but that he is not consistent with things in the movie universe, like his motto, comments about humans, Megatron's slaughter on Cybertron etc.

[griffin]

Not to mention that it contradicts Optimus' behaviour from the first movie, which had the same script writers and director, so there's no excuse.

[kup]

I had a similar issue with this scene as Tiby and mentioned it in my review - It's pretty much due to Bay not understanding what he is doing and wanting the movie to be artificially more 'hardcore' and blatantly contradicts the character we saw in the first movie which as I understand it, its within the same continuity as this one.

[GoktimusPrime]

The way Optimus Prime dispensed of Bonecrusher in the first movie was pretty brutal.


But I think it would have been better if the script had even mentioned that these Decepticons had been recently responsible for deaths and destruction, and they were moving in to neutralise the threat. But no... Bay just wants all characters to go in with all guns blazing, with no concern about character consistency...
I assumed that this was already the case, but I agree that it would've been better for the movie to spend a few seconds to specifically mention it... would've been time better spent than watching Wheelie hump Mikaela's leg IMO. (-_-)

[kup]

The way Optimus Prime dispensed of Bonecrusher in the first movie was pretty brutal.


I assumed that this was already the case, but I agree that it would've been better for the movie to spend a few seconds to specifically mention it... would've been time better spent than watching Wheelie hump Mikaela's leg IMO. (-_-)

Bonecrusher was killed during battle - in the heat of combat. Demolishor was executed when he was completely out of the battle and defenseless.

That's a big difference.

Poor Demolishor. He was there minding his own business all quietly and peacefully and then evil Optimus comes along and murders him :(

[RageOnTheRoads]

It's not so much that he is a different character in a different universe, but that he is not consistent with things in the movie universe, like his motto, comments about humans, Megatron's slaughter on Cybertron etc.

Yeah, thats the feeling I got too. :D

And in essence when you get down to it the Decepticon's cause was no less geared to the protection of their species than the Autobot's. The Fallen/Megatron simply saw the world in and overly simplistic kill or be killed way (ironically exactly the mentality the autobots adapt in ROTF). There is nothing bad or irrational about that. You see that kind of thing play out in nature the whole time. They simply sought to eradicate all other life that could pose a threat to their species and ensure their own survival even if it meant blowing up a sun, killing others of your own kind. The ends justified the means.

And thats what made Prime and the Autobots so damn cool and inspiring; they abided by a higher set of laws and morals, that extended above and beyond simple survival. They were about protecting, peace, justice, honor and the rights of every sentient being. They were above the whole, emotionally disengaged, kill to survive and sod the consequences Decepticon mentality. So it's kind of a bumber when you have to sit and watch the Autobots stoop to Decepticon lows. Especially when the one doing the stooping is non other than Optimus Prime himself.

[Defcon]

I think it was established in the first movie that the Decepticons had little regard for human life by starting a fight in a populated area, 'Mission City' and its fair to consider them a threat worth taking out. The Decepticons arriving on earth and just hiding, seems like infiltration and espionage rather than refugees to me.

[Defcon]

Though it seems really unfair when the odds are really against Sideways and Demolishor facing of an army of humans and a team of autobots. Rather than have them terminated it would of been far more interesting if they managed to evade and escape. It would of created suspense. Just killing them seems very final.

[Tober]

I think it was established in the first movie that the Decepticons had little regard for human life by starting a fight in a populated area, 'Mission City' and its fair to consider them a threat worth taking out. The Decepticons arriving on earth and just hiding, seems like infiltration and espionage rather than refugees to me.

Made as much sense for the military to extract the allspark from a densly populated area too... :rolleyes:

And then it was apparently covered up...? Two buildings fell down about 10 years ago and we still haven't heard the last of it... <runs>

[Defcon]

It seemed rather stupid to kill demolishor anyway, since he could of been interrogated! what a waste.

[Lord_Zed]

Given that there were a lot of flag drapped coffins lined up after the Demolishor/Sideways mission in the movie. I don't think the Decepticons were exactly playing nice either.

That said although it was mentioned later in the movie the Decepticons were causing significant mass human casualties worldwide other than the aircraft carrier scene, it wasn't really shoved down our throats enough just how much carnage the cons caused. Thus the Autobots often ended up appearing more savage than the cons. The first movie actualy did a better job of this simply by having that quick Cybertron scene in which Megatron showed of his collection of Transformer corpses hanging upside down.

I don't mind the idea of a tougher darker Prime who's more of a realist, however as Tiby said he does seem to contradict himself a bit between spouting the usual Prime jargon and dismembering Decepticons.

I suspect in the movie universe while President Obama repealed GW Bush's harsh laws against terrorists giving them back there basic human rights, he didn't do the same for Bush's rules aplying to Mechanoid and Alien Terrorists.

[Defcon]

Made as much sense for the military to extract the allspark from a densly populated area too... :rolleyes:

And then it was apparently covered up...? Two buildings fell down about 10 years ago and we still haven't heard the last of it... <runs>

Yeah you have a point, it wasn't really a smart plan!

[GoktimusPrime]

Bonecrusher was killed during battle - in the heat of combat. Demolishor was executed when he was completely out of the battle and defenseless.

That's a big difference.
You could also see it from the POV that Prime was putting Demolishor out of his misery - that after the fight had ended, Demolishor was fatally wounded and Prime was giving him a quicker and relatively more merciful death.

In the comic adaptation (which I suspect was based off an earlier revision of the script) Optimus Prime says, "I wish there was another way." as he shoots Demolishor - showing that while he is a realist, he still regrets having to do what he must (which distinguishes him from Dai Atlas who never showed remorse in ruthlessly slaying Decepticons). It's also in-line with the way he was portrayed in the first movie too, because after Megatron died he did say to him, "You left me no choice, brother." with regret in his voice.


And in essence when you get down to it the Decepticon's cause was no less geared to the protection of their species than the Autobot's. The Fallen/Megatron simply saw the world in and overly simplistic kill or be killed way (ironically exactly the mentality the autobots adapt in ROTF). There is nothing bad or irrational about that. You see that kind of thing play out in nature the whole time. They simply sought to eradicate all other life that could pose a threat to their species and ensure their own survival even if it meant blowing up a sun, killing others of your own kind. The ends justified the means.
Your last sentence sums up what differs between Autobots and Decepticons. The Fallen fell to evil when he broke the Primes' sacred rule about never harvesting a star that supported life, and later The Fallen corrupted Megatron, who was once lord high protector of Cybertron. (RE: Defiance (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Defiance) - when's the TPB coming out?!)

[TF76]

I won tickets so had a chance to see it again, I didnt find prime to be as cruel this time.

[Tober]

Ironhide: Punk ass Decepticon.
Optimus Prime: Any last words?
Demolishor: This is not your planet to rule. The Fallen shall rise again.
Optimus Prime: Not today. <Executes Rampage TFTM Megatron style>

So not only does Demolishor make a plea for political asylum on a neutral planet in a communist country, he also attempts sanction by beginning to give the inhabitants a warning that could save their planet...

[Tober]

...but jeez, they couldn't have tried something like "Screw you, we'll base ourselves in Australia then!"?


Our government doesn't seem to like Megatron coming into here either tho :(

[ NO! I'm still not over it! :mad: ]

[RageOnTheRoads]

Your last sentence sums up what differs between Autobots and Decepticons. The Fallen fell to evil when he broke the Primes' sacred rule about never harvesting a star that supported life, and later The Fallen corrupted Megatron, who was once lord high protector of Cybertron. (RE: Defiance (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Defiance) - when's the TPB coming out?!)

exactly! :D

And yet the human race has committed similar such evils and depravities. Ironhide even acknowledges that in the first movie. I mean lets face it we eradicate as many as 50,000 species each year on our own planet (a lot more than the 'evil' Decepticons manage during their reign of terror I'd wager ;) ) and easily committed atrocities that equal any 'Con. We lie, beg, steal, murder, slaughter hundreds of our own kind etc. (I mean sector 7 practically tortured poor Bee.) And yet Prime set his life on the line to protect our right to survival, despite all of humanities flaws. Its that higher principle, and the devotion to it even in the face of unspeakable evil and cruelty that made good ol' Prime so awesome... so to see him splatter a wounded, helpless con's processors all over the wall for being no more or less flawed than a good proportion of humanity. Well just seems a bit hypocritical and a blatant disregard of his principles is all.

I mean I could even sort of forgive him for the way in which he killed the Fallen, because he was in essence the ultimate corruption, but Demolisher was just another deluded pawn... Oh well. :(

I guess I just wish they has simply stuck with the way they had portrayed the whole scene in the novel/comic and not tried to 'beef' him up Die hard style.

Hasn't the Defiance TPB already been released? :confused: I am pretty sure it has. I was having a perv through my friends version the other day.:p Read pretty nicely as a series actually.

[Lord_Zed]

Defiance TPB has been out since the movie was released, I've got it, and it's probably my favourte of the movie comics so far. not that that's saying much, but it does shed some light on the new movie at least.


Sortof......

[FFN]

What could they do? Slap stasis cuffs of them and put them in jail? Put them on trial for war crimes? Banish them by shooting them off on a rocket to the Moon or Mars? Even if they did, they'd just escape and come back, causing more death and destruction when they land.

Earth is the human and Autobot home. The Decepticons are not welcome here, they are invaders, and have previously shown a callous disregard for lives of the native inhabitants of this world at best, and have murderous intentions at worst. And given the revelation of The Fallen and Megatron's plans, NEST's actions were completely justified.

To paraphrase Major Kira from Deep Space Nine, the Decepticons invaded our home and killed our people. It doesn't matter whether the Decepticons were soldiers or concealed scouts, they are all guilty and they are all legitimate targets.

[RageOnTheRoads]

What could they do? Slap stasis cuffs of them and put them in jail? Put them on trial for war crimes? Banish them by shooting them off on a rocket to the Moon or Mars? Even if they did, they'd just escape and come back, causing more death and destruction when they land.

Yeah, it wouldn't of hurt them to have pulled a beast wars/machines, removed their sparks form their bodies and put it in a stasis jail. Been done before in TF lore many times, and it would at least have meant that the autobots abided by the principles that they supposedly stood for. I mean if Bay actually cared about the characters he was portreying it would have been easy. e.g.

Prime gestures to the fallen and helpless 'con. "Ironhide remove his spark and put it with the others." (or something to that effect, written by someone who could actually write. :p)

There, easy. Wouldn't take much to write it into the story, and It would actually have had Prime in character. Some simple dialogue and no whining fandom. :D Or alternatively they could have gone with what's in the comic and again no one would be complaining.



Earth is the human and Autobot home. The Decepticons are not welcome here, they are invaders, and have previously shown a callous disregard for lives of the native inhabitants of this world at best, and have murderous intentions at worst. And given the revelation of The Fallen and Megatron's plans, NEST's actions were completely justified.

To paraphrase Major Kira from Deep Space Nine, the Decepticons invaded our home and killed our people. It doesn't matter whether the Decepticons were soldiers or concealed scouts, they are all guilty and they are all legitimate targets.

This is true. :D But that doesn't justify abandoning your ideals and principles, becoming as cruel and despicable as the enemy you engage. Lets face it shooting a helpless down and out soldier is a cowardly callous act, full stop. It may be explainable or even necessary, but the act in and of itself is cruel and deplorable. (and made even more so by the fact Prime didn't have any compunctions about doing it.) Just because it is committed at the hands of someone supposedly standing for good doesn't change the nature of the act itself and it's most certainly not something you'd associate with someone who stands for the protection of honour, morality, dignity and life.

Not to mention humans are guilty of the same atrocities as the cons, and yet Prime was willing enough to forgive and protect us. That is just his natural awesomeness. :)

So it's just a bit disheartening to see him lose the ideals that made him so honorable and succumb to the cruelties (or efficiencies, as some put it :() of war.

[kup]

I have recently been watching the 90s Spider-Man cartoon and during the Venom 3 parter, Spiderman under the influence of the suit defeats Rhino and has him at his mercy. Spider-Man grabs an unhinged metal door and is about to smash Rhino dead with it when he stops and reflects on how immoral such an act would be and how he would have regretted all his life if he had executed someone in cold blood while they were defenseless.

Guess those moral values don't apply to movie Prime - Not much of a heroic Autobot at all.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, it wouldn't of hurt them to have pulled a beast wars/machines, removed their sparks form their bodies and put it in a stasis jail.
Some problems with this idea:
+ Such a project would be costly - where would the Autobots acquire the resources and labour to construct such a prison without giving humans access to their technology? Optimus Prime clearly doesn't trust Cybertronian technology in human hands.
+ Acquiring land to construct this prison. I don't think the Autobots own any land on Earth - they appear to be wards of the U.S. government and I don't know if they'd be able to hold real estate in order to construct a gaol -- again, would probably involve land ownership by an Earth government who would oversee its construction (and thus gain an insight into Cybertronian technology).

I concur with what FFN said - there's little else they could do and an enemy scout is still an enemy. The gathering of intelligence is absolutely vital to an army.

"Hence it is only the enlightened ruler and the wise general who will use the highest intelligence of the army for purposes of spying and thereby they achieve great results. Spies are a most important element in water, because on them depends an army's ability to move." - Sun Tzu (The Art of War)

[Tiby]

A couple of things in response to some comments above:
1. Flag-draped coffins: You harass a bee-hive, you get stung. That is the bee's defence mechanism. I can't remember now if the coffins were from the ships or the Demolishor scene, but the ones in the Demolishor scene were the result of Demolishor's self-defence.
2. Scouts vs refugees: Ok, Demolishor obviously knew something big was coming, referring to the Fallen, but he also clearly feared the Autobots and what they were doing. His Bio talks about protecting smaller Decepticons in hiding. Sideways is a courier. Hardly top military targets.
3. Mercy killing: If he was beyond repair, that was not established very well. Frenzy gets dismembered several times and keeps going.
4. Intelligence: Demolishor says the Fallen is coming. What an opportunity to find out more! But instead, he is executed.
5. Changing sides: poorly handled in the film, but perhaps also something the current generation of TFs are not aware of. Jetfire refers to it, and he is ancient. Wheelie doesn't understand it when Jetfire reveals it. The current TFs may have been fighting so long they have forgotten that they could choose sides. The Fallen himself appears to be neutral. Prime (hard to tell how old he is) if he know, could have offered Demolishor the chance to defect. Poor Sideways, on the other hand, was shoot first ask questions later.
6. Politics: much of this could easily leap into a political discussions about the country that made this film, much like the much more superficial and media-friendly argument about the twins, but that is beyond this forum's scope.

[FFN]

2. Scouts vs refugees: Ok, Demolishor obviously knew something big was coming, referring to the Fallen, but he also clearly feared the Autobots and what they were doing. His Bio talks about protecting smaller Decepticons in hiding. Sideways is a courier. Hardly top military targets. Guess what a courier ferries? Intelligence. Intelligence on your defenses, your troop disposition, your positions. His information lets his superiors form a strategy to kill you and yours, and the Decepticons are clearly not going to limit themselves to military targets.

[jaydisc]

I'm not seeing it as self-defense. Demolisher attacks first by smacking the concrete cylinders which land on a few military personal. I can't remember at this point if the military started firing yet, but they should of, if they didn't. He starts swatting black hawks out of the sky and then making a mess of Shanghai.

All the suggestions of interrogation assume that these guys are subject to torture. Otherwise, why would any Decepticon talk. And torture is arguable as nasty, if not more, than any of the other allegations being made here.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

But then... I suppose that if any Decepticons were coming to Earth as refugees or not wanting to partake in the war any further, then they could either defect to the Autobots (as Jetfire and Wheelie did) or declare neutrality.*cough*Sideways (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Sideways_(ROTF))*cough*

Jetfire and Wheelie's defection illustrates that it's not a 'racial' thing but, as Jetfire put it, a conscious choice to be Autobot or Decepticon.JMO but this is why I like the determinist G1 cartoon Quintesson civilian/military hardware origin story better - as well as the potential for both 'races' to complement each other ('cons go out and gather resources through conquest, 'bots stay home and keep the planet running) and avoiding the IMO hamfisted 'divine/supernatural origin' BS, also allows for more interesting moral questions: can the 'cons be blamed for being warlike if that's their basic nature? It also means that those who do defect will have greater impact due to the comparative scarcity & going-against-their-nature bit a la BW Dinobot, and that the Autobots' conscious choice to fight becomes that much more impressive (as well as giving a logical reason for the 'cons being more powerful, since the bad guys are generally supposed to be more powerful from a story POV).

Two buildings fell down about 10 years ago and we still haven't heard the last of it... <runs>:eek:...:D
I mean if Bay actually cared about the characters he was portreying...(snip).Bwahahaha! Fun drinking game idea: every time you see a lame d**k/fart/balls/drug joke take a swig...just make sure you don't have to drive afterwards.
Seriously, how much did he and the writers get paid for this again?

Prime gestures to the fallen and helpless 'con. "Ironhide remove his spark and put it with the others." (or something to that effect, written by someone who could actually write.Ironhide: "Aww, Prime..."
There, easy. Wouldn't take much to write it into the story, and It would actually have had Prime in character. Some simple dialogue and no whining fandom. :D Or alternatively they could have gone with what's in the comic and again no one would be complaining. Even simpler solution: have Mr "we could kill the humans/I accidentally blew up a planet" Ironhide kill him, then have Prime tell him off for it. Both Prime and Ironhide are still in character, the 'bots are still shown to be badass/acting within the realities of war, and Bay gets his gratuitous death jollies. It's not like they didn't already have an established boticidal maniac to use, but noooo...Prime's not hardcore enough!:rolleyes:
+ Acquiring land to construct this prison. I don't think the Autobots own any land on Earth - they appear to be wards of the U.S. government and I don't know if they'd be able to hold real estate in order to construct a gaol -- again, would probably involve land ownership by an Earth government who would oversee its construction (and thus gain an insight into Cybertronian technology).A secret base in an abandoned warehouse.:p And they could use the bodies of their fallen foes to construct a spark-holding machine like the Prime-corpses-hide-the-Matrix or let's-harvest-dead-Jetfire bit.

[Tiby]

Guess what a courier ferries? Intelligence. Intelligence on your defenses, your troop disposition, your positions. His information lets his superiors form a strategy to kill you and yours, and the Decepticons are clearly not going to limit themselves to military targets.

Defenses etc in the middle of Shanghai? The Autobots are clearly based in the US. Also, this does not fit with Demolishor's bio.

[Tiby]

I'm not seeing it as self-defense. Demolisher attacks first by smacking the concrete cylinders which land on a few military personal. I can't remember at this point if the military started firing yet, but they should of, if they didn't. He starts swatting black hawks out of the sky and then making a mess of Shanghai.

All the suggestions of interrogation assume that these guys are subject to torture. Otherwise, why would any Decepticon talk. And torture is arguable as nasty, if not more, than any of the other allegations being made here.

Demolishor is completely surrounded by Autobots and the US military before he does anything. He is parked in a construction site doing nothing. He then lashes out when he is surrounded and swats the helicopters as he makes a run (or roll!) for it.

I do not equate interrogation with torture. From the rest of the movie is looks like Jolt has some special skills, and Blackout, Frenzy and Soundwave have shown they can download information using other means.

[FFN]

4. Intelligence: Demolishor says the Fallen is coming. What an opportunity to find out more! But instead, he is executed. I do agree with you here that they should have interrogated him, though I tend to think Decepticons aren't the sorts to be giving up information short of a spark extraction.


Defenses etc in the middle of Shanghai? The Autobots are clearly based in the US. Also, this does not fit with Demolishor's bio. Then what was he doing in (essentially) enemy territory? I would think the world's next super power would be an enemy worth scouting upon (from what I can tell, NEST is a US-UK [and if Bay had his way, other nations, but he wasn't allowed by those nations] military alliance sanctioned by the UN.) Alliance seemed to said the Decepticons were searching for *something*, the film suggests the shard and Megatron's location.

Whatever they were searching for, it was bad news for us.

[Lord_Zed]

Not to mention humans are guilty of the same atrocities as the cons, and yet Prime was willing enough to forgive and protect us. That is just his natural awesomeness. :)


Well that and the fact Prime effectively brought the war (back) to earth, in the movie universe just as in the cartoon and comic, Primes actions led to the Transformers war spreading to Earth, corrupt as Earth's inhabitants maybe they are innocents in the Transformers war. Were Prime to abandon earth just because he believed its inhabitants warlike he would drop down a few notches and become even more cruel and cold.


I have recently been watching the 90s Spider-Man cartoon and during the Venom 3 parter, Spiderman under the influence of the suit defeats Rhino and has him at his mercy. Spider-Man grabs an unhinged metal door and is about to smash Rhino dead with it when he stops and reflects on how immoral such an act would be and how he would have regretted all his life if he had executed someone in cold blood while they were defenseless.

Guess those moral values don't apply to movie Prime - Not much of a heroic Autobot at all.

Spiderman is a superhero and vigilante who uses his powers to pursue an capture criminals outside of the law where as Prime is a solider fighting a decalred war so I don't think that's a fair comparison. Prime is still heroic in that he fight for something greater than himslef. He is however not so compassionate as Spiderman it seems.



JMO but this is why I like the determinist G1 cartoon Quintesson civilian/military hardware origin story better - as well as the potential for both 'races' to complement each other ('cons go out and gather resources through conquest, 'bots stay home and keep the planet running) and avoiding the IMO hamfisted 'divine/supernatural origin' BS, also allows for more interesting moral questions: can the 'cons be blamed for being warlike if that's their basic nature? It also means that those who do defect will have greater impact due to the comparative scarcity & going-against-their-nature bit a la BW Dinobot, and that the Autobots' conscious choice to fight becomes that much more impressive (as well as giving a logical reason for the 'cons being more powerful, since the bad guys are generally supposed to be more powerful from a story POV).


The only problem with that origin story is it doesn't explain why all the TF's spontaneously get individual personalities with which they make those conscious choices. If the TF's were all just tools that decided the Quintessons were bad then wouldn't they be more like Skynet at the Quintessons are John Connor. :D

[Paulbot]

I agree with the concerns and I've had them ever since I saw friendly Bumblebee rip the spine out of a feline Decepticon and then rip the arms off another Decepticon and shoot him in the back of the head. I wanted to see the whole film though in to see that scene in context. The context didn't help.

Not with the first Decepticons we saw just sitting around doing nothing when they were attacked and seemingly killed (I'll come back to that). So if NEST had found Jetfire you have to imagine they would have attacked and killed him too, plus the other "Seekers" all across the United States.

I was going to post the same discussion topic but with the heading "Autobots wage their battle to destroy the evil forces of the Decepticons". Yes that's what the theme song says but it's not until these movies (well maybe the G2 comics) that we've seen Autobots doing this.


And also - because the US Government has problems with what the Autobots were doing, they were going to leave the planet? We all know Bay is one of the Manifest Destiny, "America, F*** Yeah!" types, but jeez, they couldn't have tried something like "Screw you, we'll base ourselves in Australia then!"?

Maybe the idea that the US of A != Planet Earth genuinely didn't actually occur to him.

I was saying the same thing to LCZ128 today, why is it up to "your president"? How about the United Nations or something. :rolleyes:


The prequel comic (Alliance) show most of the Decepticons who came to Earth after the first movie, were killing a lot of people and causing a lot of destruction. It's only natural that those offenders needed to be neutralised, and strategically it is better to do it while they are inactive, by way of a surprise attack.

But only maybe 1% of people that see the movie will ever read that comic. Of the people on this board maybe only 50% will ever read the comic. In the context of the movie there's no indication of this, just that the Autobots have been hunting down Decepticons for the past two years


In the comic adaptation (which I suspect was based off an earlier revision of the script) Optimus Prime says, "I wish there was another way." as he shoots Demolishor - showing that while he is a realist, he still regrets having to do what he must

I wish that line was still in the movie. :(

Now because I don't like this portrayal I want to find a way to tolerate these scenes.

As far as I recall only one Transformer (Jazz) is clearly shown to be dead, while some others appear to be dead but are revived (Megatron and Prime).

Jazz was ripped in two. Is that what it takes to kill a Transformer beyond repair? We are so used to thinking that major damage to a Transformer head will kill the Transformer as their brain is located there. This anthropomorphic thinking may be wrong.

Perhaps in the movie-verse damaging the head of a Transformer is the quickest way to disable it. Perhaps in the head are the controls for motor functions as well as sensory inputs, but the mind/spark of the Transformer is located elsewhere? Blackout/Grindor whatever collapses quite awkwardly after Prime rips his face apart and maybe that's why. Prime's blast to Demolisher's head might stop him moving but not kill him. Being bisected by Sideswipe might do a lot of damage to Sideways but if the crucial part of Sideways' body is not affected perhaps he's fine.

What happens to these two Decepticons afterwards? Surely NEST doesn't leave Transformer bodies lying around. Do they burn/melt them like Sarah Connor and crew does to Terminators in her TV series? Or do they store their inactive bodies somewhere on that island? Or do they keep dumping the corpses in the ocean? If so wouldn't they be dropping them in the same place as Megatron and co where they are under constant surveillance?

The other thing I wonder about is: are some of these Decepticons actually drones in both movies? Is there a Blackout-type drone, a Bonecrusher-type drone. Maybe they aren't Transformers with a spark but just an unliving type of robot weapon only slighty more complex than the little insect bug that finds Sam in Egypt. Maybe Demolisher too is just another one like that with simple hide or destroy programming. They don't get much if any dialogue and perhaps Demolisher's line is just a recording programmed into the drone? If so these beings might not actually be "Sentient" and as such Optimus has no need to feel compassion for them.

It's not what we're used to thinking, and not supported by the toys that give these robots characterisations (that the movie doesn't), but it's a more positive way to look at IMHO.

[GoktimusPrime]

JMO but this is why I like the determinist G1 cartoon Quintesson civilian/military hardware origin story better - as well as the potential for both 'races' to complement each other ('cons go out and gather resources through conquest, 'bots stay home and keep the planet running) and avoiding the IMO hamfisted 'divine/supernatural origin' BS, also allows for more interesting moral questions: can the 'cons be blamed for being warlike if that's their basic nature? It also means that those who do defect will have greater impact due to the comparative scarcity & going-against-their-nature bit a la BW Dinobot, and that the Autobots' conscious choice to fight becomes that much more impressive (as well as giving a logical reason for the 'cons being more powerful, since the bad guys are generally supposed to be more powerful from a story POV).
The movie origin is kinda like that too - the Transformers who became Decepticons under the leadership of Lord High Protector Megatron were soldiers in Cybertron's defence forces and fought in the front line. Optimus Prime and the Transformers who became Autobots were relagated to more 'back seat' duties such as guarding the AllSpark and conducting excavations and doing scientific research etc. Ironhide was part of the advanced defence forces and would've been part of Megatron's Decepticons, but early on in the piece he felt morally conflicted after the Cybertronian military reorganised itself as the Decepticon army, and defected to the Autobots.

RE: Defiance.

[RageOnTheRoads]

Some problems with this idea:
+ Such a project would be costly - where would the Autobots acquire the resources and labour to construct such a prison without giving humans access to their technology? Optimus Prime clearly doesn't trust Cybertronian technology in human hands.
+ Acquiring land to construct this prison. I don't think the Autobots own any land on Earth - they appear to be wards of the U.S. government and I don't know if they'd be able to hold real estate in order to construct a gaol -- again, would probably involve land ownership by an Earth government who would oversee its construction (and thus gain an insight into Cybertronian technology).

Tis a valid argument, but this is the wonderful cracktastic world of Transformers,where any thing goes! :p

If you can have a semi truck turn into a 33 foot fully functioning robot, (despite incompatible mass and parts) a giant cube which defies pretty much every known law of nature, and a human boy communing spiritually/ psychically with the spirits of dead mechanoids in a parallel dimension, I think it's safe to say you can really go nuts and justify anything! Bay does it, and unlike you and me he doesn't even try to bring logic into the equation - not that that is necessarily a bad thing when imagination and fantasy are involved. On the contrary you can end up with something quite liberating and exciting.

Don't get me wrong, I do get where your coming from. But it would be just as easy to imagine that the highly advanced aliens could posses technology that removes the spark from the body, and then stores the raw energy and memory on a small device no larger than my thumb nail. If human kind is capable of creating sunglasses for a fly and a microscopic guitar that is still playable, the vastly technologically superior alien race must be able to create such a restraining/removal device. It's not like you have to lock the 60 foot D'con in a cell...Demolisher would probably dig his way out anyway. ;)

We could sit and argue against, or justify Primes actions in the film as fans, and create no end of weird, wonderful and wacky scenarios but at the end of the day Prime did what he did because it was Bay's film. So naturally we got Mr Bay's own skewed perception of morality and heroism. And somehow our explosion loving, openly superficial director seems to think that Genocide is ok as long as the 'good' guys are the ones doing all the killing. :confused: okie dokie.

So lets see... in Mr Bay world we have the 'good' side committing genocide against the other side for being 'evil' in their genocidal ways.... yes, ok this line of distinction is starting to get a bit blurry :o



Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Even simpler solution: have Mr "we could kill the humans/I accidentally blew up a planet" Ironhide kill him, then have Prime tell him off for it. Both Prime and Ironhide are still in character, the 'bots are still shown to be badass/acting within the realities of war, and Bay gets his gratuitous death jollies. It's not like they didn't already have an established boticidal maniac to use, but noooo...Prime's not hardcore enough!

Pure Brilliance! See it can be done! Everyone walks away happy. :cool:


Originally Posted by Lord_Zed
Well that and the fact Prime effectively brought the war (back) to earth, in the movie universe just as in the cartoon and comic, Primes actions led to the Transformers war spreading to Earth, corrupt as Earth's inhabitants maybe they are innocents in the Transformers war. Were Prime to abandon earth just because he believed its inhabitants warlike he would drop down a few notches and become even more cruel and cold.

Ah, yeah forgot about that. Good point.

[dirge]

Defenses etc in the middle of Shanghai? The Autobots are clearly based in the US.

Actually, they're based on Diego Garcia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_Garcia), which is nowhere near the US and not US territory, but hosts a US military instillation. It's mentioned very briefly in the film, and is so quick you'd miss it. I only picked it up because I already knew of Diego Garcia.

My 2c: it's a film built around giant explosions and little plot. Sadly, the Transformers mythos seen in this film is only there to support the summer film, which will be quickly forgotten by the majority of those who see it. The charcterisation is messy and sporadic because there's no distinct need for proper characterisation of the alien robots. I'm not saying I'm happy about it, but I've accepted it and moved on.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

The movie origin is kinda like that too - the Transformers who became Decepticons under the leadership of Lord High Protector Megatron were soldiers in Cybertron's defence forces and fought in the front line. Optimus Prime and the Transformers who became Autobots were relagated to more 'back seat' duties such as guarding the AllSpark and conducting excavations and doing scientific research etc. Ironhide was part of the advanced defence forces and would've been part of Megatron's Decepticons, but early on in the piece he felt morally conflicted after the Cybertronian military reorganised itself as the Decepticon army, and defected to the Autobots.

RE: Defiance.Really? Cheers, I didn't know/remember that. That makes the Movie backstory a bit more bearable IMO. Now if they can just dispense with the magical Allspark and include transformation as an 'evolutionary quirk' I'll be set. Oh God I'm thinking about this way too much again...damn.

The only problem with that origin story is it doesn't explain why all the TF's spontaneously get individual personalities with which they make those conscious choices. If the TF's were all just tools that decided the Quintessons were bad then wouldn't they be more like Skynet at the Quintessons are John Connor. :DNo Wi-Fi on Cybertron?:p
Seriously, I'd be going for a slow evolution of individual personality through acquired experience a la the Puppet Master (and to a lesser extent the Tachikoma) from Ghost in the Shell. Other examples would be R2-D2 and C-3PO (Children of the Jedi has a good example of this when C-3PO talks about his feelings towards memory wipes), or 'Andrew' from Asimov's Bicentennial Man. Prime retained his memories of being Orion Pax, as did Galvatron from Megatron, so it's quite possible the pre-Transformers would continue developing as they were recycled and upgraded by the Quints, and if I was being offlined and brought back over and over again 'cos my creators were too lazy to build more 'bots I'd get pretty ticked sooner or later too. Likewise, A-3 and Beta's group who started the rebellion were basically a small, rag-tag splinter cell of revolutionaries rather than there being a spontaneous mass uprising across Cybertron.

But it would be just as easy to imagine that the highly advanced aliens could posses technology that removes the spark from the body, and then stores the raw energy and memory on a small device no larger than my thumb nail.Floppy disk (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Floppy_disk) or nothing!:D

[SilverDragon]

My 2c: it's a film built around giant explosions and little plot. Sadly, the Transformers mythos seen in this film is only there to support the summer film, which will be quickly forgotten by the majority of those who see it. The charcterisation is messy and sporadic because there's no distinct need for proper characterisation of the alien robots. I'm not saying I'm happy about it, but I've accepted it and moved on.

This. It was very much just a framework for the explosions.

[GoktimusPrime]

better yet - cassette tapes!! Raindance and Grandslam stored incredible amounts of information about the Underbase! Although Optimus Prime's entire consciousness was once stored on a floppy disk! :D

Then there was "The Ultimate Doom" which showed the Cybertronians storing data on the super-futuristic technology of laser disc. =)

It's fun watching scifi get dated. (^_^)

[Kyle]

I actuall had no problem with Optimus Prime cutting heads off in battles but did feel a little uncomfortable of how they protrayed his execution of Demolisher in Shanghai. (He did tell Demolisher to stop/stand down initially on the highway though.) But when he sacrificed himself for Sam in the forest battle and told Sam to run with his dying breath, he was the Optimus Prime that I remembered and loved. Even though I knew they would bring him back to life I did feel like crying... :p

I also had no problem of Bumblebee ripping the spine out of Ravage (sorry all you Ravage fans out there... :p)

[The_Damned]

i think the highlight's of the movie were the decepticon dismemberment scenes, remember the only good con is a dead con :p

to be fair what were demolisher and sideways up too, b4 nest and the autobots came along they must have been up to something to warrent their attention.

[Dylbot]

"to be fair what were demolisher and sideways up too, b4 nest and the autobots came along they must have been up to something to warrent their attention."

Probably street racing. You know those hoon decepticons:rolleyes:

[Robzy]

Seriously, how much did he and the writers get paid for this again?
The "writers" got paid $8 million (http://articles.latimes.com/2007/oct/10/entertainment/et-scriptland10) for this... uh, "story"! :mad: Yes... $8 MILLION!


I was saying the same thing to LCZ128 today, why is it up to "your president"? How about the United Nations or something. :rolleyes:
Yeah, this really p!ssed me orf when I was watching the film. I was so tempted to yell out at the screen - "Who cares what the US President thinks, you idiots?!"


But only maybe 1% of people that see the movie will ever read that comic. Of the people on this board maybe only 50% will ever read the comic. In the context of the movie there's no indication of this, just that the Autobots have been hunting down Decepticons for the past two years100% Perfect!

Films should stand alone by themselves! Is Bay expecting people to go out and read a comic book to explain what the hell is going on in his film??? :rolleyes:


My 2c: it's a film built around giant explosions and little plot. So true... I'm utterly appalled by the "story-telling" in this film (or lack of)!! :mad:

[Bartrim]

Now lets think about this for a minute. At the end of the first movie Optimus sends an invite to other Autobots to come to Earth. These Decepticons were not invited. Even if they aren't doing anything then they are still tresspassing. Maybe they need a big sign hanging from a satelitte in space "Tresspassers will be shot!":p

Also it's like I've seen in numerous Law and Order episodes. Why did they run when the authorities show up? Jerry Orbach used to ask it all the time "If you didn't do anything wrong then why did you run when you saw us?"

[Tiby]

Now lets think about this for a minute. At the end of the first movie Optimus sends an invite to other Autobots to come to Earth. These Decepticons were not invited. Even if they aren't doing anything then they are still tresspassing. Maybe they need a big sign hanging from a satelitte in space "Tresspassers will be shot!":p

Also it's like I've seen in numerous Law and Order episodes. Why did they run when the authorities show up? Jerry Orbach used to ask it all the time "If you didn't do anything wrong then why did you run when you saw us?"

Trouble is, as the liaison reminded everyone, this is not the Autobots' planet to invite people to (which Demolishor also comments on).

I reread Sideways's bio and he is basically scared and looking to Demolishor for protection. It could be said that Demolishor was leading the Autobot Death Squad away from his protectorate.

[GoktimusPrime]

The movie explains that the decision to allow Optimus Prime to invite more Autobots to Earth was vetted by the military.


Also it's like I've seen in numerous Law and Order episodes. Why did they run when the authorities show up? Jerry Orbach used to ask it all the time "If you didn't do anything wrong then why did you run when you saw us?"
Indeed - there is the option to peacefully surrender. Instead they flee, and in Demolishor's case, also attacked soldiers, killing a number of them.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Another great quote re. running I remember - not from where, sadly, could even have been one of the Bad Boys films - is.
"I didn't do nuthin' man!"
"So why were you running?"
"You were chasing me!"

If someone kills my supreme leader and a whole bunch of my allies and then shows up looking for me, I'm running too.

[RageOnTheRoads]

[QUOTE=GoktimusPrime;111613]better yet - cassette tapes!! Raindance and Grandslam stored incredible amounts of information about the Underbase! Although Optimus Prime's entire consciousness was once stored on a floppy disk! :D



Originally Posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Floppy disk or nothing! :D

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! *wipes away tear* Brilliant.


Originally Posted by GoktimusPrime
Then there was "The Ultimate Doom" which showed the Cybertronians storing data on the super-futuristic technology of laser disc. =)

It's fun watching scifi get dated. (^_^)

Indeed it is. :D

[GoktimusPrime]

If someone kills my supreme leader and a whole bunch of my allies and then shows up looking for me, I'm running too.
Or alternatively don't come to Earth! What other reason did Demolishor and Sideways have for coming to Earth other than to partake in the war there? If they no longer wanted to fight, then why not just go AWOL and hop off to some other part of the galaxy where ya know, there are no Autobots? If they felt the Autobots were unfairly persecuting and hunting them - then leave! Don't want Optimus Prime and his Autobot-human lynch mob to hand your butt back to you? Stay the <expletive> away from Earth! :)

[Gutsman Heavy]

Or alternatively don't come to Earth! What other reason did Demolishor and Sideways have for coming to Earth other than to partake in the war there?

I explained this before! To find puppies! And hug them!

[Tober]

Or alternatively don't come to Earth! What other reason did Demolishor and Sideways have for coming to Earth other than to partake in the war there?

Think about it, quite obvious really.

In China in 2008? They were just a couple of sports fans there to see the Olympic Games. After that ended they moved to Shanghai and got jobs as a construction worker and courier. Sideways was just out grabbing some dumplings... :(

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Or alternatively don't come to Earth! What other reason did Demolishor and Sideways have for coming to Earth other than to partake in the war there? If they no longer wanted to fight, then why not just go AWOL and hop off to some other part of the galaxy where ya know, there are no Autobots? If they felt the Autobots were unfairly persecuting and hunting them - then leave! Don't want Optimus Prime and his Autobot-human lynch mob to hand your butt back to you? Stay the <expletive> away from Earth! :)
They're soldiers, they were obeying their leader's orders. When they got there they found their leader was killed, so they settled down, laid low (with Demolishor playing big daddy to his fellow refugees), and waited on some new leader to show up and tell them what to do next. As far as why they were summoned here in the first place goes, weren't they coming to help retrieve the legendary AllSpark, their 'source of life' and sustaining/ potentially reviving force of their home planet (and race/species)?
Shades of G1 Dead End in Five Faces of Darkness 3 really - death through starvation or death through combat.

[Tiby]

Or alternatively don't come to Earth! What other reason did Demolishor and Sideways have for coming to Earth other than to partake in the war there? If they no longer wanted to fight, then why not just go AWOL and hop off to some other part of the galaxy where ya know, there are no Autobots? If they felt the Autobots were unfairly persecuting and hunting them - then leave! Don't want Optimus Prime and his Autobot-human lynch mob to hand your butt back to you? Stay the <expletive> away from Earth! :)

It is not explained how they would leave Earth. Perhaps scan an air or space vehicle? Either way, Cybertron is ruined and Earth at least has some energy to go around.

[GoktimusPrime]

Plunder Gobotron. :p

[sanbot]

I explained this before! To find puppies! And hug them!

awww puppies!