Knockoff Sunstreaker to be released

[1AZRAEL1]

http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/buyer-beware-ko-sunstreaker-to-be-released/16522/

I for one and getting really tired of this.
Means now that when I try to find a complete Sunstreaker, i have to look really careful.

Makes me almost want to give up on collecting...

[kup]

They finally released it after so long - I was hoping it never reached the market.

This KO Sunstreaker was announced well over a year ago. When I heard it was coming I went into a frenzy to buy and complete my G1 Sunstreaker as later on, Ebay would become a mine field of KOs just like it is with Ratbat.

I hope the robot mode has some obvious discrepancy so that it can be spotted quickly when loose.

[1AZRAEL1]

God I hope so...

Its making buying transformers so much harder.

[bruticus]

Lucky i got my sunstreaker ages ago...
its scary though, cos i had a look at the KO mirage a while back and it looked pretty much identical even down to the Takara stamp.

Is there any chance we can get a sticky thread with a list of all known KO G1's and how to identify the differences?

[SentinelPrime]

+1

I was just about to buy a misb wheeljack, and if it wasnt for some one here on the board I would of been done over by a KO. I think a sticky thread with available KO's and how to identify is a good idea.

[MV75]

All the more reason for me to stick with encore releases. :)

[fatbot]

All the more reason for me to stick with encore releases. :)


Agreed at least then we know that's it's not a KO

[swoop]

I thought the sunstreaker ko already got released along with the gnaw ko?
I agree, with all the ko being released its making collecting really hard especially when they make ko of encore figures like they did with metroplex.
I recently brought a ratbat that I was a bit iffy on but fortunatly it turned out to be authentic

[Gutsman Heavy]

oh god dammit!

[GoktimusPrime]

Is there any chance we can get a sticky thread with a list of all known KO G1's and how to identify the differences?
There's a huge list of links to useful sites for ID'ing KOs on tfwiki (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Knock-off#External_links).

[kup]

There's a huge list of links to useful sites for ID'ing KOs on tfwiki (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Knock-off#External_links).

Yeah but he means to have a sticky thread with such links handy and properly labeled. Myself, I didn't know the wiki had such links and would have probably never known until your post.

[Adzma]

All the more reason for me to stick with encore releases. :)Agreed at least then we know that's it's not a KO
Sadly Sunstreaker's mould is own the list of rumoured lost ones so a reissue is unlikely. I wish I'd known about this KO earlier as I delibrately put off buying a Sunstreaker with the mindset "It won't be the last one I find."

Bah. :rolleyes:

[Robzy]

This really sux! :mad:

[16364279]

a sticky on that topic would be a tip top idea

[liegeprime]

Erm So these KOs are they die cast? How the heck is it possible they CAN do these - mass produced as well. Its not like its just 1000 units nope its more than that from the looks of it. Meanwhile the real toy company doesnt bother to do so and we get excuses like - too expensive:rolleyes:. What these KOers be millionaires then?? surely not. group VS years old established company = ???
having said this I do not condone KOs its just its frustrating the heck out of me that KOs seem to get the jump on TF wanted list more easily than the company manufacturing it itself. HasTak's just too slow.

[kup]

Erm So these KOs are they die cast? How the heck is it possible they CAN do these - mass produced as well. Its not like its just 1000 units nope its more than that from the looks of it. Meanwhile the real toy company doesnt bother to do so and we get excuses like - too expensive:rolleyes:. What these KOers be millionaires then?? surely not. group VS years old established company = ???
having said this I do not condone KOs its just its frustrating the heck out of me that KOs seem to get the jump on TF wanted list more easily than the company manufacturing it itself. HasTak's just too slow.

I don't buy this 'too expensive' crap either. I have seen several G1 accurate KOs in person and they are indeed very competent with Die cast and not that different from Modern reissues as in they often have the same flaws when compared to the original.

I am not condoning KOs but if the small factory in China can mass produce them competently with no real issue and seemingly on a whim then it should be a piece of cake for HasTakTom who surely have more resources.

[dirge]

It's quite possible that the Chinese KO factories don't have to pay the extra R&D costs of ensuring the toy is _safe_. They may well use toxic paints (as an example) figuring the toy is unlikely to end up in the hands of a small child, anyway. I'm not saying this is the case, but the KO manufacturers would face lower costs because of the fact they're producing (illegal) items which are never going to hit toy shelves for children to buy. They only have to look quality, not necessarily _be_ quality in all aspects.

[GoktimusPrime]

Remember that legit companies have lot of expenses which bootleggers don't have to pay for. These include:
+ Legal costs. e.g.: maintaining/securing trademarks.
+ Marketing - this includes getting customer feedback, and we know that Takara actively does this. Previously they had those awesome self-addressed survey cards, now it's all done online - but there's a whole division of people who collate this data. There's also product promotion, such as running competitions (with highly sought after lucky draw prizes!) etc.
+ Production - HasTak would have higher standards of production than most bootleggers. Also take into account production run numbers, distribution, shipping etc.
+ Customer care - TakaraTOMY maintains two call centres (one in Tokyo another in Osaka) which are open Mon-Fri during business hours (except public holidays).
+ Running costs - TakaraTOMY employ a host of people to run their business on a daily basis including receptionists/secretaries, call centre workers, marketing, R&D, engineering, accountants, section managers, branch managers (Japanese companies operate through a strict hierarchical structure where there are multiple divisions each with their own manager and vice manager), interpreters (they would need Chinese interpreters to communicate with their factories in China and English interpreters to communicate with Hasbro), photographers etc.
+ Wages: I suspect that most TakaraTOMY employees would be better paid that your average bootleg worker. The bootleg execs are well paid - I've seen how they live - but I'm talking about your average Joe. And we have no idea what their worker conditions are like - they could be using child labour for all we know. In the Choice Magazine article that Tiby posted last year, factories used by Hasbro (and we know that they use the same factories as Takara) have relatively good conditions for workers by ETI (http://www.ethicaltrade.org/) standards. Some KOs might be produced in the same factory - but those would be more recent and current moulds, like KO ROTF toys. With G1 KOs they're most probably being produced elsewhere, so who knows what their conditions are like. (-_-)
+ Other fees: like retailers - HasTak need to pay leases for shelf location, especially if it's an endcap (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endcap).
.....etc etc.
These are all big things to take into consideration.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counterfeit):
"[Bootleggers] see the possibilities of removing the middle men (i.e. the parent corporation) and marketing directly to the consumer."


HasTak's just too slow.
They would be slower. They have a lot more hoops to jump through, such as product meetings, seeking approval, gaining approval, R&D (yes, even reissuing an existing toy would have some R&D, _especially_ if the mould is at all damaged or deteriorated). On top of all that, they have a lot more formal procedures (and Japan is a country where there is a long series of formal procedures for everything) to go through.

They need to tread carefully to ensure that the won't make a loss from a toy being reissued. No company likes to see their product shelf warm. And because production cost is higher, the cost of their product is higher. This decision is a lot easier for counterfeiters because they know that with lower production costs, they can sell for lower prices and thus move more units. HasTak work within an entirely different budget structure... it's a completely uneven playing field as counterfeiters have an unfair advantage over legit companies.

As consumers, all we can do is continue boycotting KOs and hope that this will drive them out of business, which in turn will hopefully encourage HasTak to give us more legit reissues.

[Zippo]

Sweet, about time that Sunstreaker came out. Its been a year since I canceled my pre order for him (and that was open for a good 9 months).

[liegeprime]

Yeah I know what you mean Gok even drinking a cup of tea takes ages with all that hoopla ceremony ( inner me: Just gulp the darn cup already!!:p;):D). Ah well i still stand by my statement though. They are just too slow. Good thing they pay attention though (TakTom, i dunno about the other one) to the end user. I for one certainly aint payin for no KO.

[reillyd]

I don't buy this 'too expensive' crap either. I have seen several G1 accurate KOs in person and they are indeed very competent with Die cast and not that different from Modern reissues as in they often have the same flaws when compared to the original.


I can't comment on any of the 'diecast' KOs. I did buy recently a Shockwave KO, which looks absolutely GORGEOUS by the way on display. I'm on a disability pension, so there's no way I could -ever- afford to buy a MISB version, and can't touch/play with used ones.

But competent? Quality? It's a pale imitation. The electronics in him makes an ANYONING as hell sound, and the "sound selection" switch is missing - I suspect they never were able to reverse engineer the originals, and figured once its sold only a few people would even take him out of the box. His feet are so loose that when in gun form, they drop out again and just hang. The lights a re a little dodgy and flash too quickly. Joints are too tight or too lose. No sticker sheet, no metal Decepticon logo. And from a distance, the box looks actually really perfect. Turn the box around, and you'll find the "top" of the box is about half an inch too tall for the printed back matter, so you've got ugly blank cardboard.

I never bought any of the other reissues, so I can't say whether some of them are "better" in quality. But the joints on encore issues are perfect, and they've even IMPROVED defects in the original toys eg. Bumblebee's face in the minibots.

[MV75]

Sadly Sunstreaker's mould is own the list of rumoured lost ones so a reissue is unlikely. I wish I'd known about this KO earlier as I delibrately put off buying a Sunstreaker with the mindset "It won't be the last one I find."

Bah. :rolleyes:

Meh, doesn't bother me, my point was more of steering clear of ebay and just getting whatever they reissue through tak/tom / hasbro instead. :)

[kup]

I can't comment on any of the 'diecast' KOs. I did buy recently a Shockwave KO, which looks absolutely GORGEOUS by the way on display. I'm on a disability pension, so there's no way I could -ever- afford to buy a MISB version, and can't touch/play with used ones.

But competent? Quality? It's a pale imitation. The electronics in him makes an ANYONING as hell sound, and the "sound selection" switch is missing - I suspect they never were able to reverse engineer the originals, and figured once its sold only a few people would even take him out of the box. His feet are so loose that when in gun form, they drop out again and just hang. The lights a re a little dodgy and flash too quickly. Joints are too tight or too lose. No sticker sheet, no metal Decepticon logo. And from a distance, the box looks actually really perfect. Turn the box around, and you'll find the "top" of the box is about half an inch too tall for the printed back matter, so you've got ugly blank cardboard.

I never bought any of the other reissues, so I can't say whether some of them are "better" in quality. But the joints on encore issues are perfect, and they've even IMPROVED defects in the original toys eg. Bumblebee's face in the minibots.

I am not condoning KOs and have no experience with Shockwave KO but others that I have seen are very hard to tell from the original article with the biggest factor for identification is that they looked too suspiciously new. However ultimately they are not original and they are illegal KOs so its always bad news when they pollute the market and although I did say that they can be competently made they often have discrepancies - KO Ratbat for example doesn't fit properly inside Sounwave's chest because he is about a mm too thick.

Another KO which is very difficult to spot unless you know what you are looking for is KO Optimus Prime. That guy is near perfect and the only identifier being that his trailer has a 'Made in France' with a partially 'covered up' copyright. That Optimus Prime could easily pass as a legit reissue when it comes to quality and I have often seen them circulating in the market loose as if they were legit with the guy selling having no clue that its KO.

I imagine that the minibots KOed would also be very difficult to spot when loose.

That's why I am hoping for KO Sunstreaker to have some damning obvious flaw to him such as some mold defect or something lacking. KO Wheeljack is easy to spot in box as he has no stickers applied but I am not sure how hard he would be to spot if he were loose with stickers applied.

Thankfully the KO Shockwave is also easy to spot as he does look to have several defects such as a purple barrel which makes it easy to ID plus the other flaws you mentioned. Therefore not a great danger to collectors as the other figures.

[blackie]

i just had a squiz at the places i see KO's and these are the others im seeing:
Octane
Springer
Sideswipe
Red Alert

all listed as coming this month...
this isnt great, i wanted all those figures :(

[liegeprime]

bad news for me as Im only after parts of these figs. what's to stop those unscrupulous ebay sellers flogging off fake parts as well for as if original prices. :(:( darn

[1AZRAEL1]

bad news for me as Im only after parts of these figs. what's to stop those unscrupulous ebay sellers flogging off fake parts as well for as if original prices. :(:( darn

That was the next big thing I was worried about.

I think I am going to stick to local sellers, such as Jamie, when it comes to buying parts, as at least I can physically look at them. On ebay, you have no hope until you get it, then have to file paperwork and too much hassle. I know my selection will be limited, but I'm in no real hurry to complete all my figures.

[kup]

bad news for me as Im only after parts of these figs. what's to stop those unscrupulous ebay sellers flogging off fake parts as well for as if original prices. :(:( darn

The good thing about Sunstreaker is that every part that I have seen has a bit of grime or dirt on it due to all the ridges and things that the shoulder rockets have that trap dust and dirt in them. I have also noticed the fist as a bit grimy for some reason. The missiles can be tricky but generally if they are too new or in its frame, then its KO.

[TF76]

Great I might just repair/repaint my one for now. I think missiles is all i need. Been looking ages for a nice sunstreaker.

[yukitora]

does a ko have a different date on it? or colour or weight difference to the original? and what makes it a ko? i thought everyone would like a sunstreaker since the ori mould got screwed.

[GoktimusPrime]

i thought everyone would like a sunstreaker since the ori mould got screwed.
The Sunstreaker mould is _rumoured_ to be lost, it hasn't been officially confirmed. And just because a toy is rare and there's a chance that it cannot be reissued, doesn't mean that we are all willing to accept a counterfeit as a substitute. Depends on your own standards/opinions as a collector. This is discussed in further depth here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5212). :)

[reillyd]

The Sunstreaker mould is _rumoured_ to be lost, it hasn't been officially confirmed. And just because a toy is rare and there's a chance that it cannot be reissued, doesn't mean that we are all willing to accept a counterfeit as a substitute. Depends on your own standards/opinions as a collector. This is discussed in further depth here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5212). :)

Umm wow - I've never read out all the arguments laid out like that on that thread. Food for thought Goktimus.

I do think you also raise a good point that rumours of a lost mold doesn't completely rule it out as a future release. I don't think anyone could have "predicted" Omega Supreme and Sky Lynx coming out like that, and its always possible that a mold could be re-engineered from existing toys Takara has the copyright to.