I think Japanese made TF's are the best quality

[primatives]

HI everyone just wanting to discuss some quality issues with toys these days and most recently the Bruticus Encore. Well I went through my G1 toys mostly combiners to see what the quality was like back then.

My G1 Stunticons looked pretty crap I must say but they did have diecast so that was good :) My Motormaster is really crappy quality wise, the plastic is not fantastic at all and very light and seems like its going to break if you handeled it roughly. All the heads are crap and paint all over the palce.

However my Aerialbots and Constructicons are all really well made no flaws in it at all and all the head moulds are absoultely fantstic.

I do think the ones that were made in Japan were the best quality and onced they were made in China is where the quality started t go down. Do you guys agree?? I could be wrong.

[TheDirtyDigger]

I do think the ones that were made in Japan were the best quality and onced they were made in China is where the quality started t go down. Do you guys agree?? I could be wrong.

You're not wrong.

[GoktimusPrime]

I don't think there have been (m)any Transformers made in Japan since 1987.

[AussieJason]

No, you are right.

With some exceptions, the G1 toys were very well made and seem to last.

I have doubts about my more modern TF's in 25 years time...

[GoktimusPrime]

TBH I think most Transformers today are very well made. Transformers engineering has come a long way since 1984, and while the G1 Transformers were generally quite well designed for their time, they really pale in a direct comparison with modern Transformers.

The following comparison between contemporary Transformers (CTFs) and G1 Transformers (G1TFs) is based on generalisations of both CTFs and G1TFs - of course there are always exceptions, but generally speaking...

+ CTFs are fully poseable action figures in robot mode. Late G2 introduced fully articulated robot modes and ball-socket joints which became standardised during Beast Wars. Your typical Basic/Scout Class TF has a minimum of 9 points of articulation. G1TFs on the other hand were often poorly articulated in robot mode and some are "bricks" compared to CTFs. Most articulation existed incidentally because of the way the transformation was designed rather than being intentionally designed for poseability. e.g.: G1 Mirage can move his shoulders, elbows and wrists (6 points of articulation) whereas Classics/Henkei Mirage can move his head, shoulders, elbows, wrists, waist, hips, knees and ankles (14 points of articulation).

+ G1TFs often relied on stickers to add further cosmetic detail and highlights. This was essentially abandoned during Beast Wars where engineering focused on more highly detailed sculpting and paint applications, including airbrushing.

+ G1TFs were comparatively fragile and easily breakable compared to most CTFs which are far hardier and also have some parts which are designed to pop off under stress rather than just irrepairably snapping off.

[TheDirtyDigger]

While stickers definitely were there to add further cosmetic detail and highlights, I feel, as an end user, that they enhanced enjoyment of the toy through greater interactivity. (except when you put them on wonky...grrrrrrr)

And while the points you make there Gok on articulation and poseability are all very true and valid I think the point primatives is making is that CTFs are badly made compared to G1TFs because of mould flaws and crap quality plastic.

While personally I do like nearly all CTFs (ROTF generally excepted) I cringe in nerd disgust whenever I see a new TF with that s#!+ful grey plastic.

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah, that's more of a quality issue and we have certainly seen quality dip with some toys in the last year or so. But there were quality issues in G1 too, such as the notorious use of brittle gold plastic. I'm talking more from an engineering POV; where I suppose in an ideal situation they would be made from quality parts and paints.

Sometimes the same design can be done quite well or poorly depending on the quality used by HasTak. For example, Takara's MP Starscream was made of inferior plastic to Hasbro's and Hasbro's Universe Prowl had that awful sticky door paint which TakaraTOMY's Henkei Prowl doesn't. Likewise in G1 I'd say that Dinoking wouldn't be as brittle as Monstructor simply because he's not made from gold plastic!

[TheDirtyDigger]

Also the massive drop in quality just from the original Classics Starscream through to the Acid Storm and then the Starscream repaint is worth noting. As I acquired a few of these myself I was horribly shocked by the deterioration of mould quality and paint applications. Two of my 'new' Starscreams were even broken when still MOSC.

I dont think G1TFs were ever that bad.

[GoktimusPrime]

G1 Bruticus isn't better than Encore Bruticus because it was made in Japan, it's because that was the _first_ time the mould had been used and thus there's no problems with mould deterioration. Encore Bruticus is like the 8th or 9th use of that mould, so it's little wonder that there would be significant issues with degradation. Although Encore Bruticus is made in China, it was still made by TakaraTOMY of Japan. And yeah, most Transformers since 1987 have been made outside Japan. I do agree that TakaraTOMY seem to have used an inferior grade of plastic with Encore Bruticus which is inexcusable and disappointing. I've noticed this drop in standard from Takara ever since their merger with TOMY. Their standards were generally better than this before the merger iirc.


Also the massive drop in quality just from the original Classics Starscream through to the Acid Storm and then the Starscream repaint is worth noting. As I acquired a few of these myself I was horribly shocked by the deterioration of mould quality and paint applications. Two of my 'new' Starscreams were even broken when still MOSC.

I dont think G1TFs were ever that bad.
That's because G1TF moulds weren't reused repeatedly like some CTF moulds are now. But I think there were some mould deterioration with G1 moulds though, such as:

+ Skywarp/Starscream/Thundercracker's wings: early production runs of this toy were more accurate to the original Diaclone moulds where the wings sat flush, but many subsequent productions saw a gap between the wings and the bodies.
+ G1 1984 Jazz was reused in 1990 for the Classic reissue and again in 1993 for G2; by this stage the face had deteriorated where Jazz was sporting a "crap-eating grin." I believe this was corrected for the Encore reissue though. I have TFC and Commemorative Jazz, both sport that grin. Can't remember if my TFC Stepper does or not.
...etc.

[TheDirtyDigger]

Could that 'crap-eating grin' not been a deliberate embellishment? I think I'd prefer my Jazz with a bit of cockiness.


G1 Bruticus isn't better than Encore Bruticus because it was made in Japan

I think that's a point that could be argued simply by saying Japanese-made anything is better than Chinese-made anything. The Japs, like the Germans, are commonly known for producing high quality products.
The Chinese...not so much.

[Hereticpoo]

While personally I do like nearly all CTFs (ROTF generally excepted) I cringe in nerd disgust whenever I see a new TF with that s#!+ful grey plastic.

Totally agree. That grey plastic is appalling and makes me want to self harm.

[GoktimusPrime]

I think that's a point that could be argued simply by saying Japanese-made anything is better than Chinese-made anything. The Japs, like the Germans, are commonly known for producing high quality products.
The Chinese...not so much.
So by saying "Japanese/Chinese-made" are you referring to products that are made by Japanese and Chinese, or products that are made in Japan and China?

If you meant the former, then I agree with you. But having said that, the Chinese have never made Transformers (not officially anyway). They manufacture them, but Transformers are all designed and engineered by HasTak.

If you meant the latter, as I said, Transformers have been made outside Japan (and predominantly in China) for the past 21 years. If simply being made in China was the cause then surely Transformers would've been plagued with these sorts of quality problems since 1988, but in my observation that's simply not the case.

It's HasTak who decide which kinds of plastics and paints they want to use on their toys, and the factory in China simply follows their instructions. So the cheap grey plastic isn't there because the Chinese aren't able to supply HasTak with better quality plastic, it's because that's what HasTak have instructed them to use. This was also touched upon in conversations with Eric Siebernaler for those of us who met him while he was in Australia.

Now having said that, Takara(TOMY) (especially pre-TOMY Takara) generally tend to have higher standards than Hasbro with their toys (e.g.: reissues, Henkei, Car Robot et al.). JMHO of course. :)

[Jhiaxus]

A lot of the problems you're talking about are simple mould deterioration.

Basically -- every time a mould is used it gets more worn out. So either the mould has to be recast or fixed up to produce a better quality toy again.

Nowadays there appear to simply be less castings of moulds produced and less mould touch-ups than in G1. Allow me to explain.

In G1 toys were produced for SEVERAL YEARS RUNNING. Seriously, a single mould could get flogged for *three years straight* if it was a popular character. All G1 toys saw at LEAST a full year of production run... which is why they're so bloody COMMON now.

It's insanely easy to get an absolute ARMY of Jumpstarters now, even though they haven't been produced for over 20 years, because they flogged that mould for two or three years straight.

Nowadays a toy like Optimus Prime will PROBABLY have one or two really well known variations. In G1 Prime was produced for about three years straight and he amassed a MASSIVE number of variations. That's because there were probably several versions of his mould, and his mould was touched up, improved, fixed or changed CONSTANTLY across that time to keep production coming.

You CAN tell the difference in quality between some moulds... and in fact one of the problems you can run into when trying to fix up G1 moulds is that if you get two toys from production runs far enough apart... THEIR PARTS WON'T BE INTERCHANGEABLE!

I've run into this problem myself -- I tried to fix up my Grimlock from three different Grimlocks, one UK Classics version, and two from the original run. I managed to get a complete Grimlock out of it... but the rest of the parts COULDN'T be assembled into a complete GRimlock because the parts WOULD NOT FIT TOGETHER.

This is because of mould variations -- the sort of thing that just doesn't happen nearly as much any more.

Ever get a second-hand accessory only to find your G1 toy's fist hole is too small or too big for the weapon?

Again, same thing. It's a GENUINE accessory... it's just that it's from a different production run of the toy. Metroplex is pretty bad for this, especially his knee caps... but Scramble City moulds are also bad for sufferring from this... with the smaller guys not being able to hold their guns.

--Jhiaxus
(It's not about where the toys are produced, really, but about a MASSIVE shift in how toys are sold, how production runs are done and the priorities for Hasbro and Tomy since the 1980s.)