Why is Targetmaster Scourge so expensive

[heroic_decepticon]

I been searching for Targetmasters around eBay lately and I noticed that Targetmaster Scourges, even the loose ones, are ungodly expensive. I saw loose ones going for US$200 to $300.

I'm not understanding why that is so because a the only difference between a loose standard Scrouge and a Targetmaster one is Fracas, which is meh.

[jaydisc]

I guess for the same reason most things are expensive: rarity.

[SOUNDBLASTER]

The targetmaster Scourge also has bigger holes in the hands to hold Fracas..

Targetmaster Scourge is the rarest Targetmaster of the Transformer series. Most people don't know this, but Scourge was packed with only one per case, while other targetmasters were packed 2 per case..

Thats as much as I know but thats why he's so expensive because there's simply not alot of them around.. :D

[heroic_decepticon]

hmmm... is it that rare?

I don't look out for TM Scourge because I've had one since I was young... maybe that's why I'm out of touch in terms of how rare it is...

[heroic_decepticon]

The targetmaster Scourge also has bigger holes in the hands to hold Fracas..

so that means the only way to prove a genuine Targetmaster Scourge is to also have Fracas and for Fracas to fit snug into his hand pegs (but by that logic, Fracas wouldnt fit into a normal Scourge's fist).

I'll test that the next time I'm back home in SG... :p

[canofwhoopass_87]

I think with a reissue-ing, the fracas wielding scourge would quite possibly see a significant price drop, much like young targetmaster hot rod. But yeh currently he is ridiculously expensive - though I don't see him being that much rarer than misfire, who only sells for a fraction of scourge.

[Sky Shadow]

I suppose the reason for the general rarity of Targetmaster Cyclonus and Scourge was that they were shortpacked to start with and not released in Japan. In fact, as a kid, I would have said they weren't released in Australia (actually, I still would have thought that until I read on Cliffbee right now that they were in fact available in Australia. Personally, I never saw either of them despite seeing mountainloads of Triggerhappy, Misfire and Slugslinger.)

Secondly, I think the reason that a complete Targetmaster Scourge is more expensive than a Cyclonus is the reissue of Stepper/Ricochet. Reissue Nebulon/Nightstick is abundant (and in fact one can still buy a MISB one for less than $30), while Fracas is not. I suspect that if they ever did release Artfire with his partner (confusingly also called Nightstick, but an identical reissue of Fracas), the value of Targetmaster Scourges would drop steadily. (As would the cost of Artfire for that matter.:))

[kup]

Cyclonus is also worth a lot. I have all the '86' autobot characters as 87 targetmasters. They are no where near as expensive as their Decepticon counterparts. The same goes with the 'new' 87 target master characters too, the Autobots like Pointblank or Sureshot are not too prohibitively expensive but their Decepticon counterparts (like Triggerhappy) are well over double the cost.

[liegeprime]

Which is why Im satisfied of not getting the TM versions.....I know my G1 collection will never be "complete" to others but for me, forking out that much though on what I consider a"double" figure is just not acceptable.... I do have an alternative plan, Ill just find a loose TM partner and let them hang around with my non TM Scourge, Cyclonus, Kup, Hotrod, Blurr and Kup for display purposes since they wont fit any of the peg holes. They can independently function anyways and float in midair while in gun mode when they were shown in the G1 series :D... though looking at the G1 prices for the TM partner alone, sheesh they're expensive little buggers...

[heroic_decepticon]

I do understand why TM Cyclonus and Scourge is expensive because of rarity, but its still counterintuitive to me because if a standard Scourge costs say US$70 complete and TM Scourge costs $300 complete, wouldnt that mean that Fracas effectively costs US$230?

That and the fact that the TM versions of the 1986 characters were hardly canonical just makes their prices more absurd.

(I guess, I'm asking as if confused because there were loads of TM Cyclonus and Scourge around when I was young in Singapore, so much so that when I bought my TM Scourge, my brother, who is entitled to an equivalent, opted for the standard issue Cyclonus instead)

[GoktimusPrime]

That and the fact that the TM versions of the 1986 characters were hardly canonical just makes their prices more absurd.
Although their cartoon appearance (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Rebirth) may have been brief, Targetmaster Cyclonus and Scourge made prominent appearances in the G1 comics between 1986 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Target:_2006)-1989 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Time_Wars); debuting as Targetmasters in 1987 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmasters_%28comic%29), meaning that a good portion of their canonical appearance were as Targetmasters! I personally wouldn't fob that off as "hardly canonical." :)

[Sky Shadow]

I do understand why TM Cyclonus and Scourge is expensive because of rarity, but its still counterintuitive to me because if a standard Scourge costs say US$70 complete and TM Scourge costs $300 complete, wouldnt that mean that Fracas effectively costs US$230?

Frighteningly, I recall that we saw someone selling one on eBay back in May for that amount. And since the link is no longer working, I guess it may have sold. :eek:


That and the fact that the TM versions of the 1986 characters were hardly canonical just makes their prices more absurd.

I think canonicity is one of their selling points for western Geewun completists though (since they all became Targetmasters in Season 4 of the cartoon). Add to that that they appeared in The Headmasters comic book, and even though Targetmaster Cyclonus and Scourge disappeared from the US Marvel comic, Hot Rod, Kup and Blurr came to Earth and retained their partners. Plus Cyclonus and Scourge had their own UK plotlines surrounding their Targetmasterness for a while there. Plus they were popular characters to start with and they have 'better' accessories than their standard versions. And they are scarce - there are scores of the other Decepticon Targetmasters on eBay and yet I can't find any complete Targetmaster Scourges.

[kup]

Look there appears to be a G1 Accurate KO Scourge now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Transformers-Scourge-G1-Encore-Edtion-Original-Box_W0QQitemZ150369257334QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toy sGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN?hash=item230 2b4c776&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

Edit: I have seen a couple of TM Scourge's on ebay but like most of the good stuff - They only ship to the US :(

[liegeprime]

Look there appears to be a G1 Accurate KO Scourge now:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Transformers-Scourge-G1-Encore-Edtion-Original-Box_W0QQitemZ150369257334QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Toy sGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN?hash=item230 2b4c776&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

Edit: I have seen a couple of TM Scourge's on ebay but like most of the good stuff - They only ship to the US :(

Add the fact that they charge an arm and a leg on shipping:(

[heroic_decepticon]

Although their cartoon appearance (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/The_Rebirth) may have been brief, Targetmaster Cyclonus and Scourge made prominent appearances in the G1 comics between 1986 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Target:_2006)-1989 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Time_Wars); debuting as Targetmasters in 1987 (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Headmasters_%28comic%29), meaning that a good portion of their canonical appearance were as Targetmasters! I personally wouldn't fob that off as "hardly canonical." :)


I think canonicity is one of their selling points for western Geewun completists though (since they all became Targetmasters in Season 4 of the cartoon). Add to that that they appeared in The Headmasters comic book, and even though Targetmaster Cyclonus and Scourge disappeared from the US Marvel comic, Hot Rod, Kup and Blurr came to Earth and retained their partners. Plus Cyclonus and Scourge had their own UK plotlines surrounding their Targetmasterness for a while there.

Yes, true, true, I stand corrected. I'm even more guilty for the fact that I've read those UK comics when young and re-read them over the years. How could I forget.

I guess I said what I said because TFTM was so strongly imprinted in me when I wrote the post to have completely missed the UK comic stories.... sign. It must be age.

[heroic_decepticon]

Guys, can I hear your views on the below.

I thought of getting a TM Scourge by way of upgrade. So I got an MIB one from eBay.

There were some issues with the toy:

screws at Scourge's left+right forearm and elbow missing;
'wheel' on Scourge's back broken;
disintegrator ray very loose when fixed to head (suspect its from regular Scourge rather than TM Scourge);
inside of upper leg missing plastic piece;
both knees has plastic stress damage;
upper legs fixed wrong way round (missing screws in legs noted in auction);
discolouration of the entire of the hovercraft surface ('some' discolouration noted in auction).


Although I strongly suspect the toy has been tampered with, the seller appears honest and assures me this is his childhood Scourge and he has had no other Scourge. He other auctions appear consistent with what he told me.

However, I don't know of any Scourges that has been assembled wrongly right out of the package?

Photos illustrating the above. (http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/576029694VMBdxD)

The seller has offered:

a final offer 15% refund off the final auction price (which I consider to be insufficient); or
I return the item afterwhich he refunds the final auction price (but this means I pay for postage back and also initial postage to me totalling approx AU$75, and have nothing to show for it).


Recommendations appreciated?

[Sky Shadow]

Guys, can I hear your views on the below.

I thought of getting a TM Scourge by way of upgrade. So I got an MIB one from eBay.

There were some issues with the toy

This is why I hate it when people describe sticking any old toy in a box as Mint In Box. That toy is so far from mint that it's ridiculous - for me that's a junker and I wouldn't want it in my collection. The only way it can be true that it's really his childhood Targetmaster Scourge is if he himself at some point has taken it to pieces and then reassembled it atrociously, leaving out half the screws. It's obviously been tampered with - if it wasn't a result of childhood mutilation then it's almost certainly an utterly failed attempt to combine Scourges that were even more junky into something that's less of a junker. I do think TM Scourge and normal Scourge have the exact same gauge of headgun, so there's no need to worry about that bit at least, and I think the headguns are generally loose in a TM Scourge head. Did the toy come with Fracas? If so, that's the main redeeming feature of what you've got there.

I don't know what you should do - if you did get a good Fracas with it then maybe you could take the 15%, buy a decent loose Scourge and give it the TM fists and head? Whatever you choose, good luck - I think I recall reading that you were about to go on a cleansing eBay cold turkey bout for six months or so - once this rubbish is sorted out, I think that sounds great. :)

P.S. Even though Fred's Variants Page is (depressingly) down these days due to the death of Geoshitties, this is at least the text of what his site said about Scourge:

"Scourge: to TM, or not to TM

That is the question :-) Like Cyclonus(and their Autobot movie counterparts), Scourge went thru some changes in their quest to become a Targetmaster. Again, the handholds were enlarged to accomodate a tm gun, and the toy were slightly re-molded to accomodate a gun in vehicle mode.

In the case of Scourge, that involved widening a hole already present in the top of his head, which presented a unique problem: where to store the head gun when the tm is attached....as if he didn't have enough problems with his wings before this gun issue!(for the record, I store the extra head-gun in the hollow of his legs whern in vehicle-mode). During his transition, we ended up with two different regular versions, much like Cyclonus. In this case, the choice was painted wings, and sticker wings:

painted vs sticker wings

If you want to REALLY get technical (and you know I do) there are actually THREE versions of Scourge: painted wing, sticker wing, and sticker wing Targetmaster:

3 versions of Scourge

There is an obvious difference between painted wing, and sticker wing...and between tm and non-tm version...but if you look closely at the pic above, you see other differences between the versions, which will help you to know in the long run, to avoid someone swapping parts on you. There is a distinct difference between the sticker decals on the wings (see photo). In addition, the color of the plastic has undergone a change. It's a slight difference, but you can notice.

Another point of interest? The difference between the 'head guns' on the three versions. *There isn't one.* The mold is basically identical(3-later ones were glued in-place. For more details, click here!!

So, to wrap things up:

Scourge:
Type One: regular version, painted-wings, easily-seperated headgun
Type Two: regular version, sticker-wings securely-glued headgun
Type Three: tm-version, sticker-wings, securely-glued headgun"

[kup]

Recommendations appreciated?

It is beyond doubt that he has given you a junker Scourge built from pieces from different other Scourges.

It's a clear lie and he is deceiving you. That doesn't happen by accident.

I suggest that you ask for a full refund.

If you decide to keep the toy I may be able to restore it for you but it will not be a 'Genuine MIB' Scourge since he is going to require custom fixes and other mods to get it to a satisfactory diplay level.

[heroic_decepticon]

Did the toy come with Fracas? If so, that's the main redeeming feature of what you've got there.

I don't know what you should do - if you did get a good Fracas with it then maybe you could take the 15%, buy a decent loose Scourge and give it the TM fists and head? Whatever you choose, good luck - I think I recall reading that you were about to go on a cleansing eBay cold turkey bout for six months or so - once this rubbish is sorted out, I think that sounds great. :)


He did come with Fracas, which is really mint and I'd say in C9-ish in condition. Comes with instructions and a box that is overall nice as well (except for the tear on the corner).



painted vs sticker wings

There is an obvious difference between painted wing, and sticker wing...and between tm and non-tm version...but if you look closely at the pic above, you see other differences between the versions, which will help you to know in the long run, to avoid someone swapping parts on you. There is a distinct difference between the sticker decals on the wings (see photo). In addition, the color of the plastic has undergone a change. It's a slight difference, but you can notice.

Do you happen to have a photo showing how the TM stickered wings are different?


Another point of interest? The difference between the 'head guns' on the three versions. *There isn't one.* The mold is basically identical(3-later ones were glued in-place. For more details, click here!!

Good to know that the head-gun is 'originally' loose!



I suggest that you ask for a full refund.


That's the issue I was trying to balance.

He is only willing to refund the final auction value. That means if I send it back, I will have to (1) pay shipping cost back to him, say about $AU25; and (2) bear shipping cost I already paid to have him ship the item here (I opted for shipping very securely and with insurance, so that was around US$45).

That means that by returning the toy, I'll be out of pocket for by AU$75 just like that.

On the other hand, accepting the 15% means I have the toy but will have to do a bit of work to make it displayable.



If you decide to keep the toy I may be able to restore it for you but it will not be a 'Genuine MIB' Scourge since he is going to require custom fixes and other mods to get it to a satisfactory diplay level.

Might just take you up on it depending on the outcome of this, ermmm... fracas. :D

[kup]

He did come with Fracas, which is really mint and I'd say in C9-ish in condition. Comes with instructions and a box that is overall nice as well (except for the tear on the corner).



Do you happen to have a photo showing how the TM stickered wings are different?



Good to know that the head-gun is 'originally' loose!



That's the issue I was trying to balance.

He is only willing to refund the final auction value. That means if I send it back, I will have to (1) pay shipping cost back to him, say about $AU25; and (2) bear shipping cost I already paid to have him ship the item here (I opted for shipping very securely and with insurance, so that was around US$45).

That means that by returning the toy, I'll be out of pocket for by AU$75 just like that.

On the other hand, accepting the 15% means I have the toy but will have to do a bit of work to make it displayable.



Might just take you up on it depending on the outcome of this, ermmm... fracas. :D

I would report him to Paypal and open a dispute. Get Paypal to get the refund for you since the product does not fit the description by far and hardly sounds like an accident.

A refund of 15% also doesn't sound fair given the state of the toy. It's a junker.

[Sky Shadow]

Do you happen to have a photo showing how the TM stickered wings are different?

I don't know if it helps, but for reference, I believe these are respectively a.) painted 1986, b.) sticker 1986, c.) Targetmaster sticker 1987:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2604/scourgewing.gif

[canofwhoopass_87]

Yeh but even if the dispute is decided in hd's favour, I'm pretty sure the seller is required to refund only the cost of the item + the shipping to oz.

Return shipping will have to come out of HD's pocket and must be registered or express, which isn't cheap. Otherwise, without a tracking number to prove to paypal that the TM scourge has been sent back - they won't refund jack.

I think returning the item can be ruled out, so the best thing to do is continue communicating and further press your concerns that 15% is just not adequate. Knowing your picky ways HD, you won't rest until you get a minty TM scourge in that box :p Maybe push for a 25% refund and pick up another figure on it's own on ebay?

[heroic_decepticon]

I don't know if it helps, but for reference, I believe these are respectively a.) painted 1986, b.) sticker 1986, c.) Targetmaster sticker 1987:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/2604/scourgewing.gif

Hmmm... I must say, I can't really tell the difference. Is it the case that the TM sticker has more of a metallic sheen than the regular sticker (or is that just the photo). I think that might be it.


Yeh but even if the dispute is decided in hd's favour, I'm pretty sure the seller is required to refund only the cost of the item + the shipping to oz.

Return shipping will have to come out of HD's pocket and must be registered or express, which isn't cheap. Otherwise, without a tracking number to prove to paypal that the TM scourge has been sent back - they won't refund jack.

I think returning the item can be ruled out, so the best thing to do is continue communicating and further press your concerns that 15% is just not adequate. Knowing your picky ways HD, you won't rest until you get a minty TM scourge in that box :p Maybe push for a 25% refund and pick up another figure on it's own on ebay?

I think that's a really good point. Registered shipping with tracking is likely going to cost more than my estimated AU$25.

I'm beginning to tend toward your suggestion whoop...

[Sky Shadow]

Hmmm... I must say, I can't really tell the difference. Is it the case that the TM sticker has more of a metallic sheen than the regular sticker (or is that just the photo). I think that might be it.

Yes, I think it's either the metallic sheen or possibly the colour of the Decepticon sigil. Another thing (that could just be the photo as well) is that the light blue plastic seems to be a different shade.

[heroic_decepticon]

*update*

On basis of advice from Whoop, I've pushed for a 20% partial refund and the seller has agreed. I think its a good compromise and am moderately happy with the result (since Fracas and the TM Box, which is the variant one, are in reasonably good condition).

Sky Shadow, thanks for the except of Fred's Variant's page and also the photos.

I've compared the photo, cross checked against Dlin & Tietjens, cross checked against Transformers: Generations and also searched through lots of TM Scourge pics online and am satisfied that the parts are probably original on the basis that the TM Scourge bonnet sticker does indeed have a slightly metallic sheen compared with the regular Scourge bonnet sticker which is deeper blue.

Once again, thanks Sky Shadow, Whoop and Kup! Your help and comments have been invaluable! :D

[kup]

Since you have Fracas and the box with a 20% refund. Try to hunt down a loose TM Scourge from ebay.