My thoughts on Beast Wars so far

[Sam]

I must say initially I was not really impressed, but as with watching any series, I think it's important to keep an open mind if one wants to learn to appreciate it.

Given that it was years ago when the series was created, it was not right to expect modern-day levels of CG quality.

Additionally, I was not used to the alt modes being animals, but I learnt to see past that once I focused more on the story and interaction between characters.

I have only just finished "Code of Hero" - a really good episode in my opinion, the plot and themes reminds me once again what's great about the Transformers mythos.

Looking forward to watching the rest of Season 2 and Season 3!

[kup]

I must say initially I was not really impressed, but as with watching any series, I think it's important to keep an open mind if one wants to learn to appreciate it.

Given that it was years ago when the series was created, it was not right to expect modern-day levels of CG quality.

Additionally, I was not used to the alt modes being animals, but I learnt to see past that once I focused more on the story and interaction between characters.

I have only just finished "Code of Hero" - a really good episode in my opinion, the plot and themes reminds me once again what's great about the Transformers mythos.

Looking forward to watching the rest of Season 2 and Season 3!

Get ready for the super Awesome Season 2 Finale!

Code of Hero is one of my favorite episodes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk1jLZJ9se0&feature=related

[GoktimusPrime]

Heh... the timing of this thread is ironic. Last Friday a former poster from alt.toys.transformers started a thread where we're all posts should be like 1998 never ended so we've been reliving what life was like during Beast Wars' hey day. :D

I'm glad you're enjoying Beast Wars Sam. I think it's clear to see how Beast Wars managed to save Transformers from oblivion after "Generation 2" brought the franchise to the edge of extinction. I see Beast Wars as the Transformers' Renaissance. :)

[liegeprime]

I think it's clear to see how Beast Wars managed to save Transformers from oblivion after "Generation 2" brought the franchise to the edge of extinction. I see Beast Wars as the Transformers' Renaissance. :)

It's all Hasbro's fault!! They shouldve shown better care in their products :mad:
G2 wouldve been astounding but they bungled it up with poor promotion, reissues galore in funky candy colors and no cartoon to whet the curio of kids..... ah well, guess its their product so they can mess it up as much as they like, but its still their fault. Twenty lashes with spiked whips shouldve been in order a long time now!!!!:mad::mad::mad:

[1orion2many]

:)Code of a Hero is my favourite Episode Sam, it does help that Dinobot was my favourite character in BW closely followed by the Rat:D

[Autocon]

i dont understand why people have this "ho no they are animals not machines!" mentality. why is it so wrong?:confused:

[GoktimusPrime]

It's all Hasbro's fault!! They shouldve shown better care in their products :mad:
G2 wouldve been astounding but they bungled it up with poor promotion, reissues galore in funky candy colors and no cartoon to whet the curio of kids..... ah well, guess its their product so they can mess it up as much as they like, but its still their fault. Twenty lashes with spiked whips shouldve been in order a long time now!!!!:mad::mad::mad:
It wasn't entirely Hasbro's fault. Transformers was already a weakened franchise by the end of G1, which is why Hasbro tried to 'reboot' it with G2. I agree that simply reissuing G1 toys in weird colours and that cartoon was not a good idea. Although G2 did have a good comic series, but that was cancelled ultimately due to poor toy sales.

The thing with G2 is that it got good at the _end_. G2 gave us fully articulated robot modes, increased durability etc., but it was too late. Had G2 started like that (like say if in 1993 we got Hero Optimus Prime and Megatron and the Laser Rods) then they line might have lasted better.

Now having said that, it still might not have revived Transformers the same way that Beast Wars did. The problem with Transformers by the mid 1990s was that the franchise/concept had gotten stale. I remember talking to a lot of kids whom I used to play Transformers with complaining that the franchise had run out of new ideas. Beast Wars breathed new life into Transformers by offering something fresh, new and original. It was a risky play, but you could say that G2 was their conservative attempt at reviving the franchise, and considering that it had effectively failed, it's understandable that HasTak decided to go out on a limb and play a riskier hand. Thankfully it worked and Transformers became a success again! :D

[GoktimusPrime]

i dont understand why people have this "ho no they are animals not machines!" mentality. why is it so wrong?:confused:
There's nothing wrong with it, it was just something entirely new and it took people by surprise. To this day some people still don't like the aesthetics of Beast Wars Transformers (as heroic_decepticon once said, it feels "icky" to him) -- and that's just their opinion. I guess some people just don't like seeing organic animal kibble hanging off robots.

When you break away from the traditional design of Transformers you're always gonna get people who won't like it. There are lots of people who hate the live action movie designs because they look too "f'ugly"* and people who hate Animated because it uses the simplified contemporary style of Western animation which cuts down on excessive detailing. Whether you like or hate a certain design aesthetic is entirely a matter of personal opinion. :)

-----------------------------------
*I like the fact that they look so alien. "Transformers and Philosophy" states that technically the Transformers shouldn't have virtually _no_ alt mode kibble at all and that the movie designs show too much. It argues that all their alt mode parts should really pull apart and hide somewhere, leaving a pure protoform on the outside. Similar to how some insects are able to pull back a carapace and reveal wings etc. But as someone from Hasbro pointed out, as unrealistic as it may be, having alt mode kibble is something very iconic about what makes a robot a Transformer -- so I appreciate the fact that the designers tried to reach a compromise between 'realistic scifi fans' who would insist on kibble-free robot modes, and traditional Transformer fans who would want lots of kibble.

[kup]

I personally believe that G2 would have gained a solid following if it had started with the new 'latter' toys which were a massive leap in design from G1 with considerably increased play value. It would have gone further too if Hasbro had associated the line with a new cartoon featuring all the new characters such as the Laser Rods and Laser Prime instead of a mutated rehash of G1.

The problem with G2 is that it started disgustingly bad as far as toys and cartoons go. By the time it got 'good at the end' everyone had already turned off to it.

I blame Hasbro :)

[SharkyMcShark]

I really really liked Beast Wars. I was about 8 when it first aired but the writing is mature enough that I can still appreciate it when I go back for the odd episode.

[Autocon]

so if bws were real and they transformerd, would there be blood? would all the guts show?

[griffin]

Fan of BW here...
Just this talk about BW makes me want to go watch the show again. :)

[kup]

so if bws were real and they transformerd, would there be blood? would all the guts show?

No - What makes the Beast Wars character look realistic is synthetic skin on the outside. Notice that when they get damaged and the skin is scraped off, there is metal underneath. It's somewhat similar to a Pretender shell.

Basically if you put a Beast Wars character to the flame and burn all the skin off, you would end up with a robotic animal not unlike G1 beast modes.

[GoktimusPrime]

I really really liked Beast Wars. I was about 8 when it first aired but the writing is mature enough that I can still appreciate it when I go back for the odd episode.
That makes me feel reeeaaaally old! (I was in uni when BW came out!) But yeah, I like how the show has lots of action and fun for kiddies to enjoy, but also a good story (and occasional adult humour) for older audiences. ;)

"Oh, yeah, yeah, heh heh, scouting the enemy, yeah. Heh heh. Find any new positions?" - Rattrap (The Agenda, Part 1)



so if bws were real and they transformerd, would there be blood? would all the guts show?

No - What makes the Beast Wars character look realistic is synthetic skin on the outside. Notice that when they get damaged and the skin is scraped off, there is metal underneath. It's somewhat similar to a Pretender shell.
Autocon, think of Alice from Revenge of the Fallen. When she transforms to robot mode it's not as if there's blood and guysguts spewing everywhere -- her organic form is just an illusion. They're robots in disguise. :)

[kup]

wrong quote, Gok. I was 15 when Beast Wars came out :)

[Sky Shadow]

I like the fact that they look so alien. "Transformers and Philosophy" states that technically the Transformers shouldn't have virtually _no_ alt mode kibble at all and that the movie designs show too much. It argues that all their alt mode parts should really pull apart and hide somewhere, leaving a pure protoform on the outside. Similar to how some insects are able to pull back a carapace and reveal wings etc. But as someone from Hasbro pointed out, as unrealistic as it may be, having alt mode kibble is something very iconic about what makes a robot a Transformer -- so I appreciate the fact that the designers tried to reach a compromise between 'realistic scifi fans' who would insist on kibble-free robot modes, and traditional Transformer fans who would want lots of kibble.

I disagree with that book. There's no logical reason why Transformers shouldn't have kibble and it's certainly not "unrealistic" that they do. It's not like they're Transmorphers or Animorphs. The only time it's unrealistic is when a Cybertronian Transformer has kibble from his Earth mode before he's even been given that Earth mode. I admit that's weird.

[liegeprime]

wrong quote, Gok. I was 15 when Beast Wars came out :)



That makes me feel reeeaaaally old! (I was in uni when BW came out!) But yeah, I like how the show has lots of action and fun for kiddies to enjoy, but also a good story (and occasional adult humour) for older audiences. ;)



I was 23 by that time BW came out, (3rd year in my Degree- 1 more year to graduate) so you guys are still young hehehehe:D

I warmed up to beast wars ....TV series show coz of the good storytelling and yeah adult themes which were handled well... nothing cheesy or campy. BUt as for toys Ive only warmed up to them ( well not all really) now that Ive re watched the whole series. BUt even now Im only after the show toys not all of em. Guess Im not really just a full on BW fan.:p

Oh and kup yeah I agree, We both blame Hasbro heheheh, its their fault. Its all about proper marketing strategies and they bungled it up big time.

More lashes I say!

[Sam]

I was in year 9 when Beast Wars was shown on TV. I remember seeing it and thinking "That's Megatron? Noooooo! What have they done?".


Heh... the timing of this thread is ironic. Last Friday a former poster from alt.toys.transformers started a thread where we're all posts should be like 1998 never ended so we've been reliving what life was like during Beast Wars' hey day. :D

I'm glad you're enjoying Beast Wars Sam. I think it's clear to see how Beast Wars managed to save Transformers from oblivion after "Generation 2" brought the franchise to the edge of extinction. I see Beast Wars as the Transformers' Renaissance. :)

I still remember my initial feelings towards BW when I was in high school, however having grown up now I realise I didn't spend enough time trying to understand the series. Personally, I still like TFs better if their alt modes were vehicles or "mechanical" objects, however BW has a really solid storyline and there is continuity between episodes! (I always wanted the original US cartoons to show some continuation between each episode - apart from those story arcs).


:)Code of a Hero is my favourite Episode Sam, it does help that Dinobot was my favourite character in BW closely followed by the Rat:D

Honestly I don't know who my favourite character is, but I really dislike Rattrap - such an annoying voice! :)

[kup]

I was in year 9 when Beast Wars was shown on TV. I remember seeing it and thinking "That's Megatron? Noooooo! What have they done?".


I had a similar initial reaction but I decided to watch a few episodes to proof or disprove by initial prejudice. I am so glad to have been proven completely wrong :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yeah I hated Rattrap when I first saw the series. But he soon became a most likable character.


but I really dislike Rattrap - such an annoying voice!
Yet it's the same actor who voices Rattrap also voices Dinobot, Waspinator, Silverbolt, Quickstrike and Cicadacon! :D He also voiced Omega Supreme, Strongarm, Backstop, Snarl and Jetfire in the Unicron Trilogy English dub (though Jetfire was voiced by a different actor in Cybertron). Scott McNeil is arguably the 2nd most versatile Transformers voice actor next to Frank Welker. :)

He's an Australian-born Canadian too. (^_^)

[kup]

I also hated Rattrap but he is the sort of character which quickly grows on you and before you know it, he is one of your favorites!

I think that's because he doesn't fall in the typical pessimist character stereotype. He is pessimistic, rough and annoying but when the moment comes you can rely on him be brave, capable and heroic which is a huge contrast to his 'normal' behavior. This makes the character as multi-layered which you can relate with and eventually like. Typically in cartoons, the annoying cowardly and pessimistic character is just that and you can never rely on him to do anything more as he/she is just there for comic relieve or no reason whatsoever.

[SilverDragon]

I find the difference between the characters of the G1 and BW cartoons interesting.

In G1, there seemed to be a rather disposable approach to characters-understandable given the purpose of the cartoon was to sell toys and do not much else. You didn't get real continuity over several episodes-characters came and went without explanation for most of the time (e.g. Dinobot Island introducing several new characters out of nowhere). There were mainstays, but anyone else just cycled in and out. Personalities seemed to be pretty much one-note plus a speech quirk. Starscream backstabs and whines, Shockwave is logical, Wheeljack is a mad scientist, etc. I suppose the large number of characters had something to do with this.

Beast Wars had the opposite approach. Fewer characters, more individual development. I suppose this may have been because the bios for the BW toys were simply descriptions of them fighting, rather than personalities, so the writers had more freedom. The characters in BW seem more multi-layered. Rhinox could so easily have been the dumb brute, but he's much more than the Maximal strong guy. Rattrap has been discussed above. Dinobot needs no discussion.

[GoktimusPrime]

The creators of Beast Wars were acutely aware from the outset that by 1997 the children who'd grown up with Transformers during the 1980s were now young adults (now we're old farts :p) and intentionally wanted to cater for them as well as children.


Starscream backstabs and whines, Shockwave is logical, Wheeljack is a mad scientist, etc.
Actually Shockwave was only the cold logical fiend in the G1 comics which, like Beast Wars, had more complex characters and story arcs. G1 cartoon Shockwave was a brown-noser* to Megatron (with his undying loyalty repaid with millenia of sad lonely isolation -- wonderfully parodied by DrSmoov's Shockwave's Burden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-ItfWY3xMQ) :D).

"Shockwave there's nothing to do up there, why aren't you answering?!"

----------------
*Which is bloody impressive for a guy with no nose!

[Autocon]

No - What makes the Beast Wars character look realistic is synthetic skin on the outside. Notice that when they get damaged and the skin is scraped off, there is metal underneath. It's somewhat similar to a Pretender shell.

Basically if you put a Beast Wars character to the flame and burn all the skin off, you would end up with a robotic animal not unlike G1 beast modes.

but they were part organic. So they had to have some blood type thing surely?:confused:

[Hursticon]

[Spoiler Alert]
As a kid in the fourth grade when Beastwars came into play, I loved it from the outset... well, the cartoon anyway.

When I first saw the figures, I feel like such an idiot for this, I thought that some toy company had stolen the idea of transforming robots and used it with animals. Such things like a Spider named Tarantulas, a Cheetah named Cheetor and a Velociraptor named Dinobot, seemed very insulting at the least towards Transformers fans.

Though the figures looked pretty cool, the impact of which can be seen in my collection (link in Sig), It wasn't until I looked closer at the packaging that I noticed that under the Beastwars logo... was the Transformers logo. :p

It wasn't long after that the cartoons aired at 4:30 during Prime Possum, lol, and I was instantly hooked by the characters and the story. It was so reminiscent of the original G1 that it seemed to be a continuation of sorts, this was later confirmed towards the end of the first season.


Originally posted by GoktimusPrime:
Yet it's the same actor who voices Rattrap also voices Dinobot, Waspinator, Silverbolt, Quickstrike and Cicadacon!...
I don't mean to nit-pick but Cicadacon never made it into the cartoon, for that matter neither of the Beastwars Gestalts did. :mad:

Autocon: To my understanding they did have some sort of "blood or something", I believe it was the processed energon that they had for blood as Tarantulas makes many references to having Maximals for meals but also there are a number of scenes where various characters eat earth bound fauna, leading to the assumption that they must of had some sort of a digestive system also.


Originally posted by GoktimusPrime:
I see Beastwars as the Transformers' Renaissance.
I agree with that thought, whilst G2 had it's moments (figure-wise), Beastwars was much more of a solid effort by Hasbro/Takara-Tomy and it has paid huge dividends and continues to do so today.

All in all it is a great series that has great characters, stories, figures and contributions to the Transformers franchise as a whole.
I hope the next rendition of the cartoons/toys of the franchise has the same level of enthusiasm that went into Beastwars, because in my opinion the only thing that has come remotely close since was Transformers: Animated.

[1AZRAEL1]

Well said Hursty, I remember watching it on Prime Possum as well :o I also remember racing home on a Thursday afternoon from sport to watch it.

Though I really enjoyed the series, I did not go out collect many BW figures, I have one as my favourite, which is Inferno, but largely didn't want to collect the figures. I could have had a complete collection (if I decided to keep all the figures to myself :p) but I happily sold the lot I bought of a fellow in the states to Hursty a long time ago now it seems.

[kup]

but they were part organic. So they had to have some blood type thing surely?:confused:

In Beast Machines they were part organic, that's why they had to 'morph' in order to transform. That's not so when it comes to the BW cartoon - Their 'organic exterior' had more in common with G1 Pretender shell technology which had no internal organs or blood.

In the early BW toy bios they were indeed portrayed as Cyborgs but since the cartoon decided to forge its own considerably different take, those early bios were abandoned.


[Spoiler Alert]

I don't mean to nit-pick but Cicadacon never made it into the cartoon, for that matter neither of the Beastwars Gestalts did. :mad:

Autocon: To my understanding they did have some sort of "blood or something", I believe it was the processed energon that they had for blood as Tarantulas makes many references to having Maximals for meals but also there are a number of scenes where various characters eat earth bound fauna, leading to the assumption that they must of had some sort of a digestive system also.


Cicadacon did appear in the first 'The Agenda' episode with what we must assume to be his 'Cybertronian mode'. His character model was radically different to the toy but his is a member of the Tripredacus council.

When it comes to consumption of organic food for fuel - A machine doesn't have to be a cyborg to do that. Machines today can use organic fuel for energy. Also remember that the G1 Insecticons used to consume organic produce which they converted to Energon just like the BW characters but they were not cyborgs.

Cars also have a digestive system of sorts but they are not organic, the same goes with other organic fueled machines.

[Sky Shadow]

I don't mean to nit-pick but Cicadacon never made it into the cartoon, for that matter neither of the Beastwars Gestalts did. :mad:

He's not called Cicadacon by name onscreen (although he is named in the script) or toy-accurate (although that could be 'justified' by the fact that he hasn't 'yet' been given a beast mode), but General Cicadacon was in The Agenda Part 1 as one-third of the Tripedacus council (along with the other two components of Tripedacus. And the Japanese equivalents of both Beast Wars gestalts were in the Beast Wars II cartoon.)

[Hursticon]

1AZRAEL1: Cheers dude and yes it is true, without your well appreciated facilitation I'd still be trying to collect 'whole' Beastwars figures to this day, though I'm still missing a couple of pieces. :D

kup: I agree that Beastwars 'organic' exteriors have more in common with G1 Pretender Shell technology than Beast Machines 'true' organic/technological fusion. You would agree though that a 'digestive system' would be a reasonably accurate analogy for the series of mechanical systems required to create energy from the organic matter that they consume yes?, maybe not a literal organic digestive system but a digestive system all the same?.

kup & Sky Shadow: I do stand corrected as I was unaware that one of the three Tripredacus Council members was named General Cicadacon due to the fact that I've not seen any Beastwars II/Neo and I've not read the scripts for Beastwars, a long process and dedication I imagine?. :)
As the onscreen characters seemed to bare little to no resemblance to the Gestalt figures, I drew no connection between the two groups. That being said, upon the new information at hand provided by you guys I can now see how your conclusion works... on paper. :p

The elements of Beastwars make for a very interesting discussion.

[GoktimusPrime]

but they were part organic. So they had to have some blood type thing surely?
Whoever said that they're truly organic? It's most likely synthetic organic material which is able to insulate them from raw Energon radiation but isn't truly organic like the tissue, blood etc. on Terminators. Their skin, hair, fur, scales etc. feel real but isn't.

This is evident from cases such as:
+ Cloudburst and Landmine -- their skin and hair looks and feels real enough that the Femaxian women didn't notice that they weren't really organic. Especially with Cloudburst who was almost snoo-snooed by the Femaxian Queen (who had him stripped down ;D).
+ When Pretenders sustain wounds there is no blood or guts spewing anywhere - just open circuits. Even when a Pretender shell is completely destroyed (e.g. Carnivac) there's a complete absence of blood and guts. e.g. when Thunderwing gave Landmine a "second one" (;)) there was just wires and circuitry exposed.
+ When Beast Wars Transformers sustain wounds there's only exposed circuitry - such as when Megatron chomped down on Optimus Primal's thigh; no blood or guts, just sparks flying.

As I said before, think of it like Alice in Revenge of the Fallen. Her outer layer obviously looks and feels real enough that it fools humans like Sam, Leo and Mikaela into thinking that she's a real human. When she's trying to do snoo-snoo to Sam he doesn't immediately notice that she's not human (other than a slight diesely taste to her kiss :p). And later when Alice was run over by Mikaela we only saw mechanical bits flying everywhere, nothing organic. Japanese Actroids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiliPslpHi8) have synthetic skin and hair, but I doubt they'd bleed if you cut one (it'd be damn freaky if they did!).


I agree that Beastwars 'organic' exteriors have more in common with G1 Pretender Shell technology than Beast Machines 'true' organic/technological fusion. You would agree though that a 'digestive system' would be a reasonably accurate analogy for the series of mechanical systems required to create energy from the organic matter that they consume yes?, maybe not a literal organic digestive system but a digestive system all the same?.
They have some kind of system that converts carbon-based organic matter ("food") into fuel (probably Energon). Beast Wars Transformers like Rhinox and Tarantulas are known to consume vegetation and animals.


I do stand corrected as I was unaware that one of the three Tripredacus Council members was named General Cicadacon due to the fact that I've not seen any Beastwars II/Neo and I've not read the scripts for Beastwars, a long process and dedication I imagine?.
As the onscreen characters seemed to bare little to no resemblance to the Gestalt figures, I drew no connection between the two groups. That being said, upon the new information at hand provided by you guys I can now see how your conclusion works... on paper.
Although the Predacon Generals' names were never verbalised in the cartoon, they _were_ called the Tripredacus Council on several occasions. So even without knowledge of the script audiences knew that they were the three members of Tripredacus, even if you didn't know who exactly was Cicadacon, Ram Horn and Sea Clamp.

Listen carefully at 5:44 in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5CmqO-WaHA
"Tripredacus Council now in session." - Ram Horn

And in "The Agenda Part 2" Beast Wars Megatron said, "So, the Tripredacus Council still smooches the skidplates of the Maximal Elders."

Tripredacus doesn't appear in Beast Wars II or Neo, only in the Canadian series. However Tripledux does appear in BWII who does look more like the Tripredacus/Tripledux mould - but they're an entirely different set of amigoes, er, characters. :p
See 1:15 of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XC16N6xxaZ4

Arriba!

[Sam]

Wow, I just finished watching Season 3 as well. Overall, I loved it and I think the tight storyline and character interaction is superior to the original US Cartoon.

However, some things I was disappointed with...

[SPOILERS AHEAD for those that have not watched it]

- Rhinox and Inferno seemed underdeveloped for characters that lasted for most of all three seasons
- The end fight between Optimus and Megatron was kinda disappointing, Optimus was made out to be weak and hardly tough enough.

- Certain references, such as Megatron donning a judge's wig in the trial of Quickstrike, and the references to animosity between cats and mice, implies Cybertronian culture has strong similarities to Human culture, something that I do not find credible (but there may be things I am not aware of)

- Plagiarism of Christian eschatological thought in the Covenant of Primus (references to "alpha and omega", and lifting parts of Revelation 12). Not a major problem, but I had hoped for more creativity (i.e. at least come up with your own quotations and prophecies perhaps?)
[END SPOILERS]

I realise when watching / reading fiction, a certain amount of suspension of disbelief is required. So I did my best to overlook those points, and found the show to be quite enjoyable. :)

[kup]

Good to hear you enjoyed BW. For me, it is the best written cartoon series to date.

In regards to the ending, that was a rush job given that the writers were only given notice of cancellation just a 3 episodes before the end of the 3rd season, specially when they were gearing towards a 4th. Due to this, there was a mad rush to address as many loose plot points as possible and condense it all into a rather sudden ending. Given their short notice I think they did a good job even if somewhat clunky. The reason for ending the show was that Hasbro wanted to move things into Beast Machines - we all know how that ended...

To address your points:

Point 1 'Rhinox': I was satisfied with how this character turned out, we got to see his regular benevolent and wise side as well as his darker, more sinister inner self. He also breaks the mold on having the largest, strongest character as a wise and intelligent character rather than the typical cartoon brute.

Point 2 'End fight': I think the problem here was the mad rush to end the series.

Point 3 'judge': Those are merely gags but if you want to justify it in canon - BW era Cybertronian culture takes place after the great war (G1) in which humans played a significant role. Naturally one would expect certain aspects of human culture influencing cybertonians. You can see that in G1 with Jazz and Blasters behavior. The Decepticons were also influenced as seen with the battle chargers in the Marvel comics as well as Skullgrin. Keep in mind that BW draws from an amalgamation of both the G1 cartoon and Marvel G1 continuities.

Point 4 'Plagiarism': Religious parallels is a well known Furmarism and that particular episode was written by none other than Simon Furman :). Since Primus was a major plot point in Marvel G1 which was surrounded with many religious and fantasy parallels, it makes sense to have the Covenant of Primus although personally, it wasn't my favorite aspect of the show.

[GoktimusPrime]

#1: The writers initially killed Inferno off at the end of Season 2 -- hence why we saw him _disintegrate_ during The Agenda. However Hasbro was not ready to remove a Mega class toy from the show, so insisted that Inferno remain. So he effectively remained on Hasbro's behest. Having said that, I think he was still a pretty neat character. :)

#2: Not sure if you know this Sam, but Season 3 was finished in a hurry. As you know, Forward and DiTillio are the kind of writers who draw story elements out over a very prolonged period of time (much like Furman did during G1). They'd already completed writing half of Season 3 when Hasbro suddenly dropped the bomb and told them that it would be the final season of Beast Wars and to wrap everything up. They had to suddenly tie up all kinds of loose ends -- some of which were never resolved (e.g.: the famous deleted scene about the ultimate fate of G1 Megatron's spark). It's something we've often seen Hasbro do before in the past.
e.g.:
+ The Rebirth: Originally written as a five part pilot (much like Five Faces of Darkness for Season 3), Hasbro suddenly informed David Wise that it had to be reduced to a 3 parter and gave him a massive list of characters^toys that had to be introduced during the story, most of them within the first episode (hence why a lot of characters just appeared for a few seconds without really contributing much to the story (e.g. Sixshot, Fastlane, Cloudraker et al.).
+ The G1 comics was abruptly axed by Hasbro -- which frustrated Furman who was instructed to introduce Action Master Optimus Prime by the final issue despite the fact that Furman had just killed Optimus Prime five issues before!
+ I believe Hasbro gave Furman more advanced notice for the cancellation of G2, but he still wasn't thrilled about being axed again, hence why he created the name "Jhiaxus" ("Gee, axe us"). ;)
...so under the circumstances, I think Season 3 was reasonably well written.

#3: I agree wholeheartedly with you, Sam. It's something that bugs me with _most_ TF writers (even Furman who I still consider my favourite). Writers like Bob Budiansky, Alex Kubalsky and Roberto Orci were/are better at writing Transformers as being otherworldly aliens. ;) "The boy's pheromone levels indicates he wishes to mate with the female."

#4: Furman (and other writers like those on Beast Machines) frequently plagiarise from various religions, not just Christianity. Thus Transformers theology draws from several different Earth religions such as Zoroastrianism, Hinduism/Buddhism, Daoism as well as incorporating some schools of philosophy such as Aristotle's Phronesis etc.

[Sam]

Thanks for the responses guys. :)

When watching the two-parter Nemesis, I did feel that things were taking pace faster and thought it was rushed, however I didn't know it was because Hasbro wanted to wrap things up.

As you guys have pointed out, I think given the situation it was the best the writer(s) could do.

My complaints for points 3 and 4 mainly stem from my desire to see more _difference_ between Cybertronian culture and human culture. As they are aliens, I didn't want things to be always the same or similar. For example, I thought at least the "Covenant of Primus" could have been a datadisc of some sort instead of a book. I believe the comics handled this aspect better.

Going to watch Beast Machines now ... I've heard it's not as good as Beast Wars though. :0

[GoktimusPrime]

My complaints for points 3 and 4 mainly stem from my desire to see more _difference_ between Cybertronian culture and human culture. As they are aliens, I didn't want things to be always the same or similar. For example, I thought at least the "Covenant of Primus" could have been a datadisc of some sort instead of a book.
Or a Cube. ;)


I believe the comics handled this aspect better.
You mean the Beast Wars comics? Yeah. Of course, the comics don't have to appeal to young kids at the same time -- and I think that's the reason why we had all these familiar Earth elements in Beast Wars. The story needed to engage children as well as adults.

Also, the Beast Wars cartoon did fundamentally exist to sell toys - whereas the comics were created after the BW toyline concluded so they had much more creative freedom. Hasbro effectively dictated which characters were to be inserted or removed in the cartoon. Because of the cost of CGI animation certain CGI character models (remember that each Transformer = 2 models) had to be removed to offset the introduction of new models/characters - thus maintaining a status quo. There's never more than about a dozen characters in Beast Wars at any one time. Compare this with the Japanese cel animated Beast Wars Second and Neo series which were able to introduce every single character from the toy lines


Going to watch Beast Machines now ... I've heard it's not as good as Beast Wars though. :0
that whole engaging kids thing? Beast Machines throws that out the window. :) It is a rather adult story. The visual effects and animation are a LOT better than Beast Wars though (everyone has shadows!!). I think I should hold back on further commenting about Beast Machines until you've watched it.

[kup]

With Beast Machines you should probably approach it not as a Transformers fan but a general cartoon fan. Also don't expect a logical continuation of the characters - It may be in continuity but due to different writers and radically different style, some characterizations have been changed a fair bit from BW.

It is a good story overall, much better than most contemporary cartoons in general but it isn't a good Transformers cartoon.

[1orion2many]

:(Rattrap is an absolute shocker as well as some of the other main characters in BM, they completely screwed up the main personalities on them to something close to being opposite to what they were in BW:(

[Hursticon]

I concur, the character utilisation is abysmal but the BM story I didn't mind too much, I wasn't a fan of the Art style either - Beast Wars is the far superior style in my opinion considering the only thing better at the time was Toy Story.

As it was said, it's certainly a good cartoon, unlike the puke kids have today, but a pretty poor Transformers cartoon.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

BM had a few episodes/ideas I thought were great, but all up it's still going into the "And then he woke up and it was all a dream" sub-canon in the Odieverse.

Spoilers ahoy from hereon in...

I did like the Tankor saga, and Botanica was an interesting concept. The Diagnostic Drone was just beautiful, especially when Megs kicks the invading Maximals butts. Strika was awesome and has become one of my favourite TF characters - having a tough, smart, competent butch fembot for a change was great, especially as a contrast to Blackarachnia. I really wish we'd seen more of her in Animated (and gotten Team Charr/Team Rodimus toys dammit). The toy of Blackarachnia (I have the Universe repaint, pity about the colors) is awesome IMO - it's crazily poseable and looks sweet in both modes.
I only really have two major objections to BM, namely the organic world schtick (not that TF lore is especially great or consistent) and the characterisation. BW Megatron is easily my all-time favourite Transformer character, and the way BM portrayed him really ticked me off. Basically, he didn't feel like BW Megs except for a few episodes, mainly the last few - the first time I really thought of him as the Megs I know and love was when he scraps the Drone.

Still, it is worth watching at least once, and for some episodes a few times over.

[GoktimusPrime]

SPOILERZ















Odie: The organic world thing has been around since G1 -- but G1 indicated that Cybertron had evolved from an organic world into a mechanical world (much like Gobotron or Gorlam Prime, although the Transformers are entirely mechanical, not cybertronic). The problem with technorganics isn't so much any conflict with existing continuity, but:
#1: It's a unorthodox concept which was wrought with controversy (Bob Skir received death threats and claims of "ruined my childhood!" long before Michael Bay!). The alt modes (especially the beast modes) are so abstract and obscure looking that Hasbro felt the need to include a text description telling us what they were meant to be! In Beast Wars you would see Ultra Optimus Primal and you knew straight away it was a gorilla. You look at Transmetal Megatron, yep, that's a dinosaur. Beast Machines Optimus Primal's card has the word "gorilla" printed on the bubble! And I still don't know what the hell Geckobot's meant to be! (O_o) And who didn't laugh and/or cry when they first saw Silverbolt?!?
#2: the fact that it boxed Transformers continuity into a dead end and has since elicited almost all post-BM writers to do continuity reboots because nobody wants to pick up where BM left off!

The only way you could continue from BM would be to either continue with the technorganic concept (which would not be popular in my estimation) or undo it (as you said, "it was all a dream." :D

[kup]

G1 Cybertron didn't 'evolve' from an organic world. The original organic surface was completely supplanted by Primus hence why you have those underground mutant things living in Cybertron's core.

There is no evolution between the original organic inhabitants and Transfomer Cybertronians. There is something else that BM stuffed up as it also implied linear evolution of the origanic world before Cybertron and Primus' reshaping of hat world.

[GoktimusPrime]

Actually, according Atechnogenesis Cybertron did undergo an evolutionary process in becoming a machine world. Granted that Atechnogenesis was retconned out of canon and replaced with Primus Special Creation. :p So okay, Cybertron was transformed into a machine world! :D


There is something else that BM stuffed up as it also implied linear evolution of the origanic world before Cybertron and Primus' reshaping of hat world.
I don't recall Beast Machines ever stating evolution being the process by which Cybertron became a mechanical world. Simply that Cybertron was once organic, but then became mechanical. Precisely how it became mechanical was left open to interpretation.

[kup]

I don't recall Beast Machines ever stating evolution being the process by which Cybertron became a mechanical world. Simply that Cybertron was once organic, but then became mechanical. Precisely how it became mechanical was left open to interpretation.

I took it as linear evolution since the organic connection was heavily implied as such.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Heh, this topic of conversation has been done and redone so (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=2305&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) many (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=177&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) times (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=3421&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron).

[Lord_Zed]

Heh, this topic of conversation has been done and redone so (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=2305&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) many (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=177&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) times (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=3421&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron).

Like Trukk not munky, Transfans never get tired of the classics.

[kup]

Heh, this topic of conversation has been done and redone so (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=2305&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) many (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=177&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron) times (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=3421&highlight=beast+machines+organic+cybertron).

It's an Ozformers tradition :p

[Autocon]

wish someone would do a model of a bw in the bayverse asthetics;)

[langzixinxin]

BW rocks!

I just finished watching it on youtube today!


I don't like the original beast form either in cartoon or toys. But transmetal rocks!!!

I just ordered a blue face otpimal from ebay. :D

BTW, anyone want sell their apelinq, primal prime, optimal optimus, transmetal megatron, PM me pls. :D MISB or MIB pls.

[GoktimusPrime]

wish someone would do a model of a bw in the bayverse asthetics
Alice is the closest thing so far.

[chuttla]

Very interesting read. I'd have to say rinox was my fav, as he was not only strong, but also smart. Ratrap was cool, but i agree his voice is very annoying. Yeah i heard beast machines wasnt as good, i did see single dvd's on special,but decided to stay away from them.
All this talk makes me want to get the beast wars dvd box set:)

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd have to say rinox was my fav, as he was not only strong, but also smart.
That and Rhinox also has a pair of kickass chainguns! :D I remember when BW first aired, even my non-TF friends were really impressed with those chainguns! (^O^)

[SharkyMcShark]

Just thought I'd bump this again. I've been rewatching some of the Beast Wars episodes and god damn it was a fantastic show. Possibly the best Transformers show there's been in terms writing - BW Megatron to this day still remains my favourite Megatron, and possibly favourite character in any TF TV show.

Which inevitably has forced me to pull out some old Beast Wars toys, and god they were fun (also I bought a Tigerhawk and Optimus Primal from some of the lads on here at a toyfair last weekend) - top top stuff.

[langzixinxin]

Isn't next year BW 15th anniversary? Are we going to see more reissues?:p

[SharkyMcShark]

Oh god it has been 15 years... I feel so OLD!

(at this point I'm ready to buy 15th anniversary reissues of the entire cast to be honest)

[langzixinxin]

Oh god it has been 15 years... I feel so OLD!

(at this point I'm ready to buy 15th anniversary reissues of the entire cast to be honest)


Sounds like my instinct is correct. There will be a bunch of new toys.

That would be Michael Bay's main competitor 2011. :D

[Hursticon]

Oh god it has been 15 years... I feel so OLD!

(at this point I'm ready to buy 15th anniversary reissues of the entire cast to be honest)

Your telling me Sharky and I'm only 25! :D

Thank god I've got a 95% complete collection of Beastwars figures, save for Japanese exclusives like Ravage though I have the Penguin, Horse and Giraffe??? (lol the Giraffe's name is Longrack :D).