Henkei VS Hasbro

[Darth Conlan]

Hi All, Firstly sorry if there is a thread already hear for this but I couldn't find one.

OK what is everybodies thoughts about Henkei VS Hasbro when it comes to Transformers? I personally like the robot form better in the Henkei and the alternate form in Hasbro e.g. Seekers. I wish they made a Sunstorm one in Henkei as I may change over. They also look alot more plastic that the hasbro G1 figures. Is this true at all?

Anyway I'm a newby and I'm keen for everybodies thoughts and pictures if you want to.:)

[Darth Conlan]

Ok after a little more searching I realize that they are called Universe also to Henkei. Still loving the robots in this look. Most of you seem to have both!

[kup]

I personally think that Henkei are considerably superior to Hasbro's Universe releases of the same mold.

This particularly applies to Sunstreaker, Prowl, Hound and Dinobot among others.

However although IMO Henkei do happen to have superior paint applications and overall material quality - They suffer terribly from bad QC just like Hasbro's.

[Vector Prime]

Takara try to be more G1 cartoon accurate with their Henkei range and the quality is also better.

They also tend to have random chromed (vacuum-metalized) bits on the Henkei which (sometimes) improves the appearance.

I think it's a matter of personal taste but with certain characters, I prefer the Hasbro Universe/Classic version over the Henkei equivalent, whereas in some other characters, I think the Henkei version is superior in appearance.

For example:

Henkei Astrotrain > Classics Astrotrain
Classics Skywarp > Henkei Skywarp

[GoktimusPrime]

Overall I'd say TakaraTOMY's Henkeis and Universe USA Edition (e.g. Silverbolt, Powerglide) are better than Hasbro's Classics/Universe.

Some arguable exceptions may include:
+ JETFIRE: Henkei Skyfire's colours are more plain and arguably boring compared to Classics Jetfire. Jetfire's colours are also more faithful to the original G1 toy, but Henkei Skyfire's colours are more accurate to the cartoon (and the helmet has a red visor which is more accurate to the G1 toy). So it depends on your tastes/preference - both are good in their own right.
+ DIRGE: Classics Dirge has a more G1-accurate colour scheme, but Gentei Dirge has a more G1-accurate mould!

I'm also not fond of the chrome on Henkei Grimlock - but maybe that's just me. The best thing might be to look at photos (or real life samples if you know people who have these toys) of both Hasbro and Takara versions and see which ones you'd like to collect from Hasbro and which ones from Takara. :)

[5FDP]

The main difference as other have said, is that Henkei figures tend to be chromed whereas the Hasbro figures are not.

With some of the Henkei toys, this looks quite good, however there are a few that look... well, not right with all that chrome e.g. Ramjet.

Both have their strong and weak points.

I would make your purchasing decision based on which figure you are buying in order to make a fair comparison between the two.

[Darth Conlan]

Is there any good galleries where I can see the difference?

[GoktimusPrime]

tfu.info (http://www.tfu.info/) should have photos of all the Hasbro ones.
You can find pics of Henkeis on the official site (http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/henkei/index.html) and there's also an official site for Universe USA edition here (http://www.takaratomy.co.jp/products/TF/products/universe.html).

[klystron]

With some of the Henkei toys, this looks quite good, however there are a few that look... well, not right with all that chrome e.g. Ramjet.

Both have their strong and weak points.



Not to regurgitate everyone else, but it really is a case of 'beauty in the eye of the beholder.'
Personally I think there is no comparison between Henkei Megatron vs Classics Megs. But having said that, I think Classics Prime is better than Henkei Prime.

I've never been able to make up my mind on Henkei Grimlock though...

[1orion2many]

:)For me honestly it was whatever I could afford at the time:D. Some people get all excited about the chrome but it didn't worry me one way or the other, Henkei Megatron is far superior in colouring if you prefer the G1 colour scheme and not fluro colours. I have mainly Henkei after the first wave of Universe but this was only because the Henkei line was made readily available to me from someone on this board otherwise I would have been happy with the Universe line. I must admit I am looking towards getting a Henkei Hotrod and Astrotrain as their colours seem better to me ;):)

[Oilspill]

I tend to buy Hasbro's figures as I think they're generally as good (or better) than Henkei, except for a few exceptions where I consider the Henkei version superior.

Megatron and Astrotrain are far superior in the Henkei line.

I also picked up Henkei Hound, Ratchet, Ironhide, Powerglide, Smokescreen, Onslaught(maybe, not 100% sure which one my Onslaught is) and all the legends as I thought they were a little better than the Hasbro versions.

[Lordy]

My Henkei Megatron and Smokescreen are far better looking than the Universe versions, but I prefer my Universe Cyclonus over the Henkei version

[GoktimusPrime]

:)For me honestly it was whatever I could afford at the time:D

It's also about what was available at the time. When Classics first came out in 2006 most of us leapt for joy and grabbed these toys as quickly as we could! It wasn't as if at the time we knew that TakaraTOMY would release Henkei two years in the future (after all if any of us could accurately predict future events we could stop working and live the rest of our lives by winning every lottery!).

When Henkei came out I did think that overall it was an improvement over Classics. But to be fair to Hasbro, it's because Takara's came later, so obviously you'd try to improve over what came before. So while I think Henkei is overall better, I think that Classics is pretty good too -- good enough that with the exception of Megatron and Astrotrain, I don't feel the urge to replace my Classics with Henkeis. Having said that, I think that if I were a new collector trying to start a "Classics" collection now, I would probably opt for Henkei for most figures.

At least new collectors have the advantage of retrospective hindsight and can _choose_ which version they want! A luxury some of us didn't quite have four years ago. ;)

[lcz128]

The Henkei line has brought out a lot of awesome releases. Not all of them were released after the Classics/Universe equivalents either, nor are they all 'better' than the other -

As someone mentioned, the QC is about as shocking as Hasbro's - what can you do? :(

But an example of something that was released before a hasbro equivalent is:
Red Alert
:D He's AWESOME, and I can't see any way a Hasbro release could be better than that :D

but then there's Sideswipe - where the Hasbro release doesn't have chrome, and is actually more accurate than the Henkei one! :) Funny how things turn out!

So - like many have said - Pick and Choose! The choice is yours! 8D

[kup]

When it comes to the original 'Classics' releases such as Optimus Prime, Grimlock, Bumblebee, etc. I do happen to mostly prefer the Classics version than Henkei.

The Classics toys don't seem to predate the lower manufacturing quality that can be seen in Universe (classics 2.0).

[christalcase]

I guess tend towards henkei a little bit, since imo a lot of them look reli awesome and better but they tend to be more expensive too... (u'll prob hav to import them, so u'll hav to pay shipping costs)

for ease, hasbro I think is gud enough, and tend to be cheaper, as least I dont hav to wait aaaggges to wait for it to come (i can just grab it off the shelf wen I see it) and as ppl hav mentioned, which part of the toys has chrome reli makes diff

and yes, I think red alert is awesome too! well... except for da stupid loose elbow joints on mine :(

[blackie]

henkei come with techspecs
nuff said

[langzixinxin]

I was wondering is there a legal agreement between Takara and Hasbro that "the more G1 accurate paint always belongs to Takara"?

The only complain about henkei from me is the chrome. I don't want them on toys as they are easily worn.

I prefer G1 accurate paint, but no chrome. :rolleyes:

[kup]

I was wondering is there a legal agreement between Takara and Hasbro that "the more G1 accurate paint always belongs to Takara"?


Both Henkei and Universe toys are made in the same factory with two production lines. Hasbro prefers to spend less on manufacturing costs for maximum profit while the Japanese have more of an emphasis on product quality and costumer satisfaction.

[Jhiaxus]

The Henkei toys usually look like balls compared to the Hasbro ones.

They're slathered with random chrome, adhere stupidly to the cartoon, and generally don't have the nice touches of extra colour that bring the toy to life -- like Prime's yellow high-lights, or Megatron's greens and purples.

--Jhiaxus.
(There's a reason I only own four Henkei toys -- and part of that reason is that 3 of them came in one pack. Legends! woo!)

[Jhiaxus]

Both Henkei and Universe toys are made in the same factory with two production lines. Hasbro prefers to spend less on manufacturing costs for maximum profit while the Japanese have more of an emphasis on product quality and costumer satisfaction.

That's such an enormous lie. I can't believe you'd claim that.

That's not even remotely the truth. The difference here is not a matter of philosophy towards the consumers. The idea that Tomy is somehow this wonderful benefactor and not a money-making company is ridiculous.

Hasbro and Tomy's releases have a big difference between them. Hasbro's releases are way, way, way, cheaper. They spend less money on paint aps, but as a result, their toys are *half the cost* of Tomy's releases when you compare the Yen prices to the USD prices.

So yeah, Tomy's releases have more paint, but it's not because they CARE about the consumer more. They're not graciously granting you a more G1 accurate paint job out of some desire to give you better customer satisfaction. It's not because they don't care as much about the bottom line.

It's because they make you pay for it.

Yes, they're generally more G1 accurate, but whether that's a good thing or not is entirely subjective. Objectively what it does demonstrate is that Tomy is far more conservative than Hasbro. They have a much smaller consumer base than Hasbro -- whose consumer base for Transformers is just insanely huge, so they are far more conservative in their presentation of product than Hasbro.

We have a skewed view here in Australia, because we already pay insane prices for our Transformers -- we get American release Transformers at more than twice American retail. But those toys were DESIGNED for American retail release.

Both Tomy and Hasbro are in the business of making money. They treat their products differently, but this is not a sign of how much they care.


--Jhiaxus.
(Seriously dude... I've seen this "Tomy cares more about the customers" claim made a million times and it's UTTER BULLTRIPE.)

[jaydisc]

Both Henkei and Universe toys are made in the same factory with two production lines. Hasbro prefers to spend less on manufacturing costs for maximum profit while the Japanese have more of an emphasis on product quality and costumer satisfaction.

Is this fact or theory? If it's fact, I'd like to know more. If it's theory, that's cool too, just want to make sure :)

[GoktimusPrime]

Yes, they're generally more G1 accurate, but whether that's a good thing or not is entirely subjective.
I really don't like how Universe Prowl's missiles are unpainted. Being plain white makes them look really bland to me. I prefer the chrome missiles on Henkei Prowl - aside from making it more G1-like it also gives it highlight. Even if Hasbro had slapped on some silver or grey paint... something to make it less bland.

The yellows on Universe Sunstreaker are just awful, I don't like the shades or the fact that they mismatch. I much prefer the richer cadmium yellow on Henkei Sunstreaker.

I also really like how TakaraTOMY usually gives their Transformers tech spec cards and maintain a feedback survey (although the pre-TOMY surveys were a lot better). I also much prefer how TakaraTOMY bothered to try to maintain the Octane name (as Destron Octone, which is like "Decepticon Octane"), whereas Hasbro calling theirs "Tankor" is five flavours of fail and reeks of a lack of effort to me. With some effort I'm sure they could've worked out some way to maintain the name in some form, like maybe "Mega Octane". With "Tankor" I just thought, "are they even trying to maintain the Octane name??" -- I bought Henkei Octane over Universe Tankor purely over the name (I couldn't really care all that much about the chrome on this mould).

I agree with Lord_Zed though -- I prefer Universe Cyclonus over Henkei Cyclonus. But I don't like the mismatching greys. I don't see why Hasbro can't get things like the yellows on Sunstreaker or greys on Cyclonus just to be the same shade. :/


Hasbro and Tomy's releases have a big difference between them. Hasbro's releases are way, way, way, cheaper. They spend less money on paint aps, but as a result, their toys are *half the cost* of Tomy's releases when you compare the Yen prices to the USD prices.

So yeah, Tomy's releases have more paint, but it's not because they CARE about the consumer more. They're not graciously granting you a more G1 accurate paint job out of some desire to give you better customer satisfaction. It's not because they don't care as much about the bottom line.

It's because they make you pay for it.

We have a skewed view here in Australia, because we already pay insane prices for our Transformers -- we get American release Transformers at more than twice American retail. But those toys were DESIGNED for American retail release.
The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective... unless the price of Transformers here becomes cheaper and more comparable to what Americans pay. And that's not taking into account other factors like differences in average wages, cost of living etc.

[kup]

Is this fact or theory? If it's fact, I'd like to know more. If it's theory, that's cool too, just want to make sure :)

Gok has a Universe Hotshot which was mistakenly assembled with both Henkei and Universe parts out of factory packaging. This points that both releases are assembled within the same factory and therefore two production lines.

[GoktimusPrime]

Exhibit A:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/universe_jaam.jpg

[sifun]

franken hotshot! can we get robot mode shots :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Sure thing. :)

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Transfan%20Meets/Sydney%20Meet%20October%202009/sydmeet_2009_10_03b.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transformers/Transfan%20Meets/Sydney%20Meet%20October%202009/sydmeet_2009_10_03e.jpg

[kup]

That's such an enormous lie. I can't believe you'd claim that.

--Jhiaxus.
(Seriously dude... I've seen this "Tomy cares more about the customers" claim made a million times and it's UTTER BULLTRIPE.)

Fine. No need to be so hostile about it. You can believe what is a lie and truth all you want, geez.

BTW: No one is debating that both companies are in it for the money you read that in my post all by yourself. What's different is their approach on gaining that money.


The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective... unless the price of Transformers here becomes cheaper and more comparable to what Americans pay. And that's not taking into account other factors like differences in average wages, cost of living etc.

Exactly! Well said.

[Darth Conlan]

Is Acid Storm only available through the universe collection or did Henkei do one?

[kup]

Is Acid Storm only available through the universe collection or did Henkei do one?

It's only available through Universe.

[Kyle]

Given the much larger volume of a toy released by Hasbro vs the TakaraTomy version, I'd say Hasbro pays for the majority of Research and Development cost. With the exception of a few Japanese only moulds here and there, Hasbro would be the one ordering the development of the majority of toy moulds anyway, and TakaraTomy probably gives them a discount for the R&D cost with the agreement that they are allowed to use the same moulds to release toys in Japan and Asia. This could possibly be a reason why TakaraTomy can afford to have different paint apps and chrome on their version.

[5FDP]

This could possibly be a reason why TakaraTomy can afford to have different paint apps and chrome on their version.

Not always a good thing (http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/attach/4/4/1/8/2/arcee_00_1268487751.jpg)...

[kup]

Not always a good thing (http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/attach/4/4/1/8/2/arcee_00_1268487751.jpg)...

That's a prototype, the colors are not final. However It would be a bad idea if they go with that.

[canofwhoopass_87]

Figures aside though - I like the Hasbro packaging more. I can't read japanese and the characters sort of remind me of cheap KO's sold in some gift shops. I suppose you have to be japanese illiterate to understand :D

[GoktimusPrime]

Given the much larger volume of a toy released by Hasbro vs the TakaraTomy version, I'd say Hasbro pays for the majority of Research and Development cost. With the exception of a few Japanese only moulds here and there, Hasbro would be the one ordering the development of the majority of toy moulds anyway, and TakaraTomy probably gives them a discount for the R&D cost with the agreement that they are allowed to use the same moulds to release toys in Japan and Asia. This could possibly be a reason why TakaraTomy can afford to have different paint apps and chrome on their version.
That doesn't explain why Hasbro versions of Takara(TOMY) moulds/lines sometimes have reduced quality, such as the notoriously cheap and brittle rubber used for tyres in RiD. I bought my RiD Optimus Prime 2 years after I got Super Fire Convoy, yet the tyres on my RiD OP split only a few months after purchase, whereas the tyres on my SFC remain in tact to this day. Then there's the paint apps on the Autobot and Decepticon insignias for Armada where they just "splotched" red or purple all over the insignia. That doesn't seem to be a cost-saving move (if anything, wouldn't it cost more since they're technically using an extra drop of paint per figure by doing so?) -- just seems slack/lazy to me. And is bright hurt-your-eyes day glow yellow cheaper than the regular yellows that Takara uses? (e.g.: Armada Hot Shot vs. Micron Legend Hot Rod)

...and G1 reissues and Alternators were just ridiculously expensive in Australia. ALTs initially sold for approx. the same price as Binaltech's RRP in Japan and our G1 reissues here sold the about the same price that you would pay for a Japanese reissue in Australian import stores. Which meant that if you imported it yourself it was _cheaper_ than buying it from TRU!! Both lines were R&Ded by Takara, so I really didn't see the need for them to be so expensive. Yeah I know they're cheaper for Americans, but for us as Australians they were really f'expensive. I remember at one stage buying Japanese reissues from local import stores was even cheaper than TRU!

Some TF lines are evenly co-developed by both Hasbro and Takara. I believe that most of the Unicron Trilogy toys were co-developed by HasTak - at least that's how I understand Aaron Archer's description of how Armada was developed. The line was developed to cater for both Hasbro and Takara's markets, hence why they had to choose alt modes that they felt could appeal to both markets etc.


Figures aside though - I like the Hasbro packaging more. I can't read japanese and the characters sort of remind me of cheap KO's sold in some gift shops. I suppose you have to be japanese illiterate to understand
I guess you have to be Chinese illiterate too since KOs come from China, not Japan. (-_-) Unless all non-alphabetic languages look the same to you. (-_-) Also a lot of KOs have really crappy English like "Fireeninebot" (makes "Destoron" look good). :p

I generally prefer Takara's packaging. I find they put more effort into it, the toy photography isn't as doctored as Hasbro's and it doesn't occupy as much space. Oh yeah, Takara usually don't go as crazy with twist ties as Hasbro does!

[Jhiaxus]

The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective... unless the price of Transformers here becomes cheaper and more comparable to what Americans pay. And that's not taking into account other factors like differences in average wages, cost of living etc.

The point I was making was that the reason Tomy's toys have more paint is that they COST MORE in their INTENDED MARKET.

That's got very little to do with the skewed view we have in Australia, and PRETENDING that it does is ridiculous. It might ENCOURAGE you to buy the Henkei toys, sure. That's fine, that's valid.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that Tomy doesn't put more paint on the toys out of a sense of customer satisfaction.

And as for the Quality Control thing, it works both ways. I've hardly EVER had to return a Hasbro toy. But I've had Tomy toys broken STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. All the anecdotal evidence I've ever heard put Tomy's quality control way bellow Hasbro's. But you know what? It's anecdotal.

LIke the tyre cracking? My Wild Ride's tyres cracked. he's a Japanese release. My Super X-Brawn's tyres never cracked -- or haven't yet.

Anecdotal.

Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Tomy.
--Jhiaxus.
(Seriously, dude. I get it... you look at it from an Australian perspective, that doesn't change the simple fact that neither the toys from Hasbro nor the toys from Tomy are made for the Australian market.)

[Darth Conlan]

Are there any rumors of new seekers coming out? To me it would be a no brainer to name and release the Rainmakers.

[kup]

Are there any rumors of new seekers coming out? To me it would be a no brainer to name and release the Rainmakers.

The obvious repaint would be Sunstorm but nothing has been announced for Classics. However if one happens, I am afraid that Hasbro will paint him piss yellow rather than orange like they did with titanium. The Animated and E-hobby color schemes are the way to go.

[Darth Conlan]

Yeah I have the E-Hobby one coming from ebay. Love him. He is my Fav transformer. Would like him in henkei/classic/generation though.

[GoktimusPrime]

Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Tomy.
In Japanese they're still called "TakaraTOMY" (タカラトミー), and TV commercials will have the announcer say, "TakaraTOMY" (not just "Takara" or "TOMY"). Their official website is takaratomy.co.jp. I accept that "TOMY" is their international trading name, but in Japan they're called TakaraTOMY. I guess in this regard I'm looking at it from a Japanese POV. ;p

The only time I say "Takara" now is if I'm referring to the company prior to the merger with Tomy; e.g. Car Robot = Takara. For anything made since then I say "TakaraTOMY." If I'm referring to the company from both before and since the merger I type "Takara(TOMY)."

If you or anyone else wants to call them "TOMY" then that's fine - although it would only be applicable if discussing the company in its post-merged state. If we were to talk about say Japanese G1 then it would be "Takara."


(Seriously, dude. I get it... you look at it from an Australian perspective, that doesn't change the simple fact that neither the toys from Hasbro nor the toys from Tomy are made for the Australian market.)
As Takara (pre-merger) once kindly told me, Australia is a Hasbro market. So it is Hasbro's responsibility to look after us. Now having said that, I'm not going to start pointing blame at Hasbro Australia for decisions made by their U.S. parent company... but ultimately it is Hasbro Australia who's responsible for our market. Isn't there anything Hasbro AU can do to bring down the cost of TFs here or are prices completely set by Australian retailers like Kmart, Target etc.??

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/

[Lint]

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/


You do realise our minimum wage is close to double theirs? So given that our TF prices are roughly double theirs, if you're complaining I think they still have the right to too.

[5FDP]

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective



I guess in this regard I'm looking at it from a Japanese POV. ;p


I get it... you want your cake and eat it too ;) :D

[Lord_Zed]

So don'tcha just love it whenever American fans start whinging about how expensive Transformers are in the U.S.?! (-_-) :/

No, but I love it when they whinge about how exspensive Henkeis and other Japanese TF's are now due to the relative weakness of the USD to the yen.

For me the minimal price difference as already discussed between Henkeis and Universe is the clincher. Although 3 Henkeis that far exceed thier Hasbro counterparts even without this would be Megatron, Astrotrain and Smokescreen.

As for the Seeker debate Hasbro have announced Thrust, and they always seem to release 2 seeker jet molds in previous Universe and Classics assortments, many fans are excpecting Dirge so yeah my money is on Sunstorm. :D

[GoktimusPrime]

You do realise our minimum wage is close to double theirs? So given that our TF prices are roughly double theirs, if you're complaining I think they still have the right to too.
I wasn't aware of that, but then again, most of the American Transfans that I usually talk to have university degrees and are employed in occupational fields like engineering. Also, if you're in the absolute minimum wage bracket then perhaps taking up an expensive hobby like toy collecting may not be a terribly wise decision. :p Or if you did your collecting habits would be different from those of higher income. There's a reason why I don't have a MISB G1 Fortress Maximus and Grand Maximus. ;)

Heh, when I was in the anime club at uni almost everyone was studying either engineering or I.T. I was the oddball with the arts/education major. :p


I get it... you want your cake and eat it too
Allow me to clarify...

When it comes to the name of TakaraTOMY, I call it TakaraTOMY. Yes I know that officially it's only called TakaraTOMY in Japan and its international trading name is just TOMY. It's probably because usually when I think about Japanese Transformers I am actually thinking in Japanese in my mind. So it's more intuitive for me to think of them as TakaraTOMY. That's not to say that I'm more "correct," but it's just my personal preference. I also pointed out that I do try to take care in separating pre and post TOMY Takara.

As a consumer I make my choices from an Australian POV. For example Universe Sunstreaker retails here for typically $30 whereas Henkei Sunstreaker retails for 2310JPY. From a Japanese perspective that's like $23.10 if you're earning your wage in JPY. But from an Australian perspective 2310JPY is about $28. So for what is a comparable price for me, since I personally prefer the Henkei version, I would rather spend that money on the Henkei.

Now I can accept the notion that the Hasbro versions may not have been intended for the Australian market - fine. But the end result for me as an Australian is that the Hasbro versions cost approximately the SAME as the TakaraTOMY versions. So for what costs me a similar amount I might as well choose which one I prefer, since buying the Hasbro version doesn't really save me much money.

Sure, I also need to pay for postage - but it's an additional cost that I'm willing to pay for the toy if I prefer it that much over the Hasbro version. I also save money on postage by doing group orders with other people. On the other hand, while I did think that Henkei Smokescreen was nicer than Universe Smokescreen, I didn't think it was nice enough to justify the cost of shipping. So I skipped Henkei Smokescreen and got the Universe version instead.

So I'm not saying that the Japanese versions are universally better than the Hasbro versions or vice versa -- I think you need to make a case by case call and decide for yourself if it's worth importing or if you're content with the Hasbro version.

[5FDP]

Long-winded post about stuff

I was just being silly dude. Nothing was meant by the 'cake' comment so please don't feel the need to defend yourself :) Friends?

[GoktimusPrime]

s'cool. :) :D

"I'm not yelling, I'm just passionate!" - King Leonidas (United 300 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cY2dhZ30axY))

[Lint]

I wasn't aware of that, but then again, most of the American Transfans that I usually talk to have university degrees and are employed in occupational fields like engineering. Also, if you're in the absolute minimum wage bracket then perhaps taking up an expensive hobby like toy collecting may not be a terribly wise decision. :p


How much money they're raking in doesn't change the fact that you're talking to a bunch of people who are accustomed to paying $3 for a year's supply of pickles :p

Call me cheap (rhetorical :p) but I'm employed in the same field and I'm still outraged that a bag of 175g crisps costs 3 bucks at the supermarket.

[Kyle]

And as for the Quality Control thing, it works both ways. I've hardly EVER had to return a Hasbro toy. But I've had Tomy toys broken STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. All the anecdotal evidence I've ever heard put Tomy's quality control way bellow Hasbro's. But you know what? It's anecdotal.

As much as I prefer TakaraTomy's colours over Hasbro in general, I have to say I've had many more QC issues with TT's toys than Hasbro.

Car Robots Black Convoy - one leg was missing paint details.
Reissue God Ginrai - missing a front wheel.
Movie 1 Trans-scanning Optimus Prime - the leg broke right out of the box.
Henkei Sunstreaker - gun was supposed to have two chromed pieces, left and right. Mine had two right pieces...
Henkei Alert - Right arm has a moulding defect.
ROTF Buster Optimus Prime - elbow was very loose, I unscrewed and opened the arm to find a ratchet joint component missing.
If I'm being picky, I can list many many more...

Fellow forum member Bruticus also has a part missing in his set of EZ Collection Constructicons... he can't form Devastator.

Not to mention a number of my friends who had two right thighs or two left thighs on their Henkei Starscream... as well as parts missing on their MP-4 Convoy.

[kup]

I only begun to encounter heavy QC issues with Takara-Tomy during Henkei. Before that, I was very happy with them in that regard. On the other hand, Hasbro also had decent QC too but at around the time Universe 2.0 appeared, their QC also fell to the ground.

Since it has been established that both releases are from the same factory, then it makes sense why both lines have such mediocre QC. Hasbro/TakTom should have been on top of that as the problem continued on for subsequent waves.

For the record QC =/= 'nicer paint finish' it's about preventing manufacturing defects from reaching the store shelves. I had people confuse the two in similar discussions in the past.

[Darth Conlan]

Just on another question guys, where is the best visual guide for TF products?

[1orion2many]

You can try TFU.info they are pretty useful for U.S and some Japanese only items:)

[GoktimusPrime]

When it comes to G1, G2 and Machine Wars Transformers I would recommend Transformers Generations, or Transformers Generations Deluxe (http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E3%83%88%E3%83%A9%E3%83%B3%E3%82%B9%E3%83%95%E3%8 2%A9%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9E%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B8%E3%82%A7% E3%83%8D%E3%83%AC%E3%83%BC%E3%82%B7%E3%83%A7%E3%83 %B3-%E3%83%87%E3%83%A9%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9/dp/4813010946). I call it the Transformers Bible. :)

Check this link (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Unofficial_guidebooks) out for more Transformers guide books. In terms of web sites TFU.info is quite useful.

[Paulbot]

Just on another question guys, where is the best visual guide for TF products?

There's also a very good book (in English) for G1 called Cybertronian, check out heroicdecepticon's comments:
http://heroicdecepticon.blogspot.com/2009/09/im-liking-this-little-book-by-dlin-and.html

[griffin]

I was wondering is there a legal agreement between Takara and Hasbro that "the more G1 accurate paint always belongs to Takara"?

The only arrangement they have is to try not to have an exact identical colour scheme to an exclusive toy done by the other one.
Other than that, for toys released by both companies - TT is often developing their product range after Hasbro, so have the flexability of changing colours or items in their release, based on the retail price and target demographic in their own market (Japan).


Both Henkei and Universe toys are made in the same factory with two production lines. Hasbro prefers to spend less on manufacturing costs for maximum profit while the Japanese have more of an emphasis on product quality and costumer satisfaction.

As noted by Jhiaxus, the retail (and as such wholesale) price of the same figure in both US and JP markets, dictate how much each respective company can spend on the product (like packaging, number of paint apps, chrome, pack-in extras, etc), to appeal to their different target demographics.
If both products were being released from the warehouse at the same wholesale price (which is unlikely based on their respective retail prices), then it would be fair to compare each product based on other factors.
Hasbro's target demographic is for the younger, 'general' age group, so need to make a cheaper product to be 'better value' to more kids and parents. TT's target is more 'niche', with older kids and committed collectors in mind, so need to spend more on the look of their product and packaging to entice the more discerning pallet - and as such, passes on that expense with a higher retail price.
Good or bad, Hasbro's 'cheaper' (in price and quality) approach is giving the TFs Brand a better long-term viability and outlook than TT. If anything, if Hasbro wasn't generating as much money and recognition for the Brand, would TT be investing into new product at all? Animated, Movie-verse, Masterpiece, Henkei - the bulk of TT product recently has all been instigated and funded by Hasbro (with licensing fees being a source of income for TT). If Hasbro were able to engineer the toys themselves and source their own factories to produce them, they probably wouldn't even have to pay licensing to TT. (I'm guessing that's what the licensing is for)


Is this fact or theory? If it's fact, I'd like to know more. If it's theory, that's cool too, just want to make sure :)

A lot of us who've been around a number of years, have moments when we just rattle off 'facts' that either have no recorded source, or just seem to fit what we've known from years of experiance with the Brand. I think for the benefit of the newer fans, and those who don't read everything in existance relating to Transformers, it is fair to ask for a source on anyone's claims (as long as it is done objectively, and you have an interest in the matter).
For instance, the first half of his statement is probably recorded somewhere, but I personally wouldn't have even thought about Referrencing that claim (if I stated it myself), as I just be recalling a number of 1st or 2nd hand accounts at BotCon or Hasbro Q&A, stating that. That said, if asked, I would probably have to dig through some BotCon reports somewhere or the TFwiki probably has it mentioned...
Not sure about the second half of the statement, pertaining to production/wholesale costs of Hasbro & TT, as that sort of thing is unlikely to be made public for a variety of reasons. Besides, if Hasbro are just commissioning TT to produce the toys for them, it would be like any other business/supplier relationship - the business (Hasbro) wants X amount of units at X amount of $ per unit - which leaves it up to the supplier (TT) to do it as profitable as possible within the parameters of Hasbro's minimum requirements (size, colours, etc). For their own product, TT can set their own requirements and per-unit costs, independant of what Hasbro does with theirs.


Gok has a Universe Hotshot which was mistakenly assembled with both Henkei and Universe parts out of factory packaging. This points that both releases are assembled within the same factory and therefore two production lines.

I read that as Jaydisc seeking a source for the second half of your statement, about production costs, as the first half would probably be generally accepted by most of us who've been in the fandom for a while.


Both Tomy and Hasbro are in the business of making money. They treat their products differently, but this is not a sign of how much they care.
(Seriously dude... I've seen this "Tomy cares more about the customers" claim made a million times and it's UTTER BULLTRIPE.)

I've heard better stories about TT's customer service, than Hasbro's. Not saying that relates to the intention behind how they produce their product, but TT's after-sale service is much better than Hasbro's, suggesting that they do have a greater interest in the customer AFTER they have purchased the product, instead of just trying to generate customers like Hasbro do.
If someone has a personal assumption on a matter that appears untrue, just ask for a source for their information, as it may encourage them to find out for sure if it is true, without getting them defensive over a verbal outburst and stubbornly sticking with what they believe.


The cost of Transformers for Americans means sweet FA to me. I'm sorry, but for me the cost of a Hasbro Transformer is comparable to a TakaraTOMY Transformer -- and for approximately the same price I'd rather get the Takara version if I happen to prefer it over the Hasbro version.

If the Hasbro versions were substantially cheaper for me like they are for Americans, then I may reconsider getting Takara versions. But they're not.

So as long as I'm earning my wage in AUD I'm always going to be looking at it from an Australian perspective...

Since the point of the argument by Kup and Jhiaxus is based on production and quality standards of US and JP product, views on the final retail price in a secondary market (here) is irrelavent.
TT produce a product with a set wholesale price, for an expected retail price in Japan.
Hasbro pay TT to produce a product with a different set wholesale price, for a different expected retail price, in America.
Hasbro AUS pay Hasbro US, a much higher wholesale price to import US Hasbro product here, to sell onto retailers, for a much higher expected retail price here.

Just because TT toys can end up costing about the same as Hasbro product here, that's essentially a bonus to us Australians, as we end up having more choice for the same-priced US and JP figures.
If TT product or Hasbro US product is imported here (by a collector personally, or by an independant dealer), and the final price a collector pays for it is the same as the related Domestic Product, it shouldn't suggest that the Factory is producing each item for the same price (and extra colours or chrome are bonus features that one company is including at the expense of their profit margin). The Domestic product here has a wholesale price set by Hasbro US, so that reguardless of the fluctuating exchange rate, we have a set, standard price here (which would be for the Retailers benefit, so that they don't need to be adjusting prices every month).


Finally... will you please stop calling them "Takara". Takara doesn't exist any more. The company is named TakaraTomy in Japan, but as you point out you live in Australia. You have an Australian perspective. You only see things through an Australian point of view. In Australia the company is *TOMY*. Tomy is its international trading name. Look at any of your movie toys. Do you see the name Takara on them? Nope, nowhere.

Transformers currently produced in Japan, as per the comments on Henkei and reissue figures, has 'TakaraTomy' on the front of the packaging, in addition to 'Tomy' in the fine-print on the back. Either name is valid, and even if 'Takara' may no longer exist, it can still be used when referring to product produced while 'Takara' existed as a separate entity.

I don't know if it is just a transitional thing, but until the 'Takara' part of their labelling is dropped, I don't see it as being inaccurate using it, as everyone would know that TT, TakaraTomy, Takara, Tomy all refer to the JP version of TFs, while Hasbro refers to the US version.


I only begun to encounter heavy QC issues with Takara-Tomy during Henkei. Before that, I was very happy with them in that regard. On the other hand, Hasbro also had decent QC too but at around the time Universe 2.0 appeared, their QC also fell to the ground.

The merger/buyout of TT probably caused that, and the rapid rise of oil prices (cost of plastic). Since TT acquire the source of production (factories) on behalf of Hasbro and themselves, the cost to them needs to be balanced with the quality they can afford at the time - if cost of raw materials suddenly becomes more expensive, but they are locked into a wholesale price with Hasbro (and themselves), production costs may need to offset by cutting corners or increasing quotas on the workers.

(as can be seen by the length of this reply, this topic wasn't being followed by me until someone recently suggested I look at it - absence from a topic doesn't suggest I endorse the content or any verbal chastising within it.)

[kup]

I don't see my statement of Hasbro having a cheaper manufacturing line for their products to maximize in profits as being inaccurate. It is very evident that the quality of the toy is lesser than that of the Japanese release regardless of chrome or choice of colors. It is also clear that there has been a steady decrease in overall quality from Hasbro in manufacturing costs from previous lines but to be fair, this also applies to Takara-Tomy in their more mainstream products but not as extensive.

I also don't see my statement of Takara-Tomy being more end customer focused than Hasbro as inaccurate either. However that focus on the end consumer has decreased greatly since the merger with Tomy.

Regardless of what the Americans pay for their toys, the rest of the world have to pay inflated prices which revenue goes to Hasbro. Specially us in Australia, so Hasbro are still profiting on a lower cost production run.

And yes, both Companies are in it for the money as much as the other. No one is debating that at all. If TakTom wasn't in for the money, their releases would not be flooded with Convoys. However their focus and approach are somewhat different or there wouldn't be a need to have two separate production runs for each market within the same factory.

[GoktimusPrime]

I've heard better stories about TT's customer service, than Hasbro's. Not saying that relates to the intention behind how they produce their product, but TT's after-sale service is much better than Hasbro's, suggesting that they do have a greater interest in the customer AFTER they have purchased the product, instead of just trying to generate customers like Hasbro do.
I can personally atest to this. When I got Masterpiece Convoy it was missing a ladder panel. I called Takara's customer call centre and they FedExed me replacement parts which arrived within under a week. They were incredibly apologetic and also sent me some TF merchandise for free.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transfandom%20Comic/th_transfandom10.jpg (http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y227/goktimusprime/Transfandom%20Comic/transfandom10.jpg)

[5FDP]

I can personally atest to this. When I got Masterpiece Convoy it was missing a ladder panel. I called Takara's customer call centre and they FedExed me replacement parts which arrived within under a week. They were incredibly apologetic and also sent me some TF merchandise for free.

You seem to do alright getting free stuff (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=63873&postcount=26) from Hasbro as well ;) Working in the customer service industry for many years, I am of the belief it depends on who you speak to / contact on any given day.

We have a system at work that measures customer satisfaction, and the results of that fluctuate tremendously depending on which customer is surveyed.

It just goes to show that you can't satisfy everybody all the time...

[dirge]

Since the point of the argument by Kup and Jhiaxus is based on production and quality standards of US and JP product, views on the final retail price in a secondary market (here) is irrelavent.


Not picking on griffin here - just quoting the most recent post along this line of thought.

This topis was started by someone looking to buy from an Australian perspective - being in Australia and all. So while it theoretically makes sense to consider the difference in intended prices, it's worth keeping in mind that anyone making a decision on whether to buy Henkei or Classics Megatron (for example), would be weighing up a roughly equivalest cost.

So for the sake of _their_ comparison, difference in intended prices in the USA/Japan becomes fairly meaningless if those prices aren't what he's going to pay now.

Of course, difference in prices on the _secondary_ market will be a big influence on which version becomes the preferred option.

[Darth Conlan]

Is there anywhere in Australia that you can buy either if these type of toys?

[Darth Conlan]

Is there anywhere in Australia that you can buy either if these type of toys?
Sorry for the double post but anywhere in Melbourne? Any little collection shops etc that would be great to look in?

[GoktimusPrime]

You seem to do alright getting free stuff (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showpost.php?p=63873&postcount=26) from Hasbro as well ;)
There's a bit more to that Hasbro story than meets the eye but I don't want to discuss it too much on a public forum. It's nothing illegal or nasty or anything, but I'd rather avoid discussing it in detail on the interwebs. :)


Is there anywhere in Australia that you can buy either if these type of toys?
The Hasbro toys are/were all sold in regular stores in Australia (e.g. Kmart, Target, Toys R Us, Big W, Myer etc.) but the Henkei ones are only sold in Japan (or in local Australian importers, but they tend to be expensive)

[griffin]

Not much in the way of Australian sources, so you'd probably need to look online - like Robotkingdom, BBTS, or even just ebay.
I think both Transfigure toys and Figuresdirect (both in AUS) have the JP toys, but probably not any of the Classics though.

[Darth Conlan]

Ok guys, you have been all brilliant with this discussion. I getting the feeling that its personal preference. So maybe to settle this a little lets get opinions on following seekers. Tell me which one is the best and why?

Starscream

Skywarp

Thundercracker

Dirge

Thrust

Ramjet

Cheers again DC

[kup]

Ok guys, you have been all brilliant with this discussion. I getting the feeling that its personal preference. So maybe to settle this a little lets get opinions on following seekers. Tell me which one is the best and why?

Starscream - The latest Universe release seems decent but I recommend Henkei. I felt the original Classics version was a bit of a poor effort. I prefer the Henkei version.

Skywarp - The Classics version was excellent and the Henkei version is good too. Its about preference but both are now expensive, specially the Classics two pack with Ultra Magnus (due to City Commander motivated demand). Both Classics and Henkei are equally as good.

Thundercracker - Both the Botcon (classics) version and Henkei are excellent but Henkei is likely to be more affordable and available even if still high priced. Both Classics and Henkei are equally as good.

Dirge - Henkei version is more accurately molded to represent the original toy but the Botcon (Classics) has a superior paint job even though its a straight repaint of Ramjet. Like Thundercracker, the Henkei version is likely more affordable and available but still expensive. Hard to call this one, I prefer the Botcon one but Henkei is probably better due to the wing molding. Good chance of Universe (3.0?) repaint being released.

Thrust - Botcon (Classics) has the superior molding and paint job. Henkei has different molding but still represents the character well but is lacking in the paint job department. The new yet to be released Universe (3.0?) version shares the same mold as Henkei but has a superior color scheme. I prefer the Botcon version by far but the new Universe seems pretty good.

Ramjet - The Classics version is pretty good with more subtle but well applied colors. The Henkei version has brighter and more cartoon accurate colors. I like them both equally but have a preference to the more subtle Classics version as he looks more G1 toy accurate than cartoon.


Most of the toys you mentioned are either Hasbro Classics releases or Botcon not Universe. The Classics were before the steep downfall in manufacturing quality from Hasbro so most of them are pretty competent and comparable to Henkei. Naturally Botcon toys would also have pretty competent paint jobs.

It would probably be of more help if you ask us about the Universe vs Henkei releases.

[Lord_Zed]

What Kup said, except avoid Classics Starscream like the plague, mine had thick runny grey paint all over his face. It looked like Starscream was worried about his age and applied to much foundation. I ditched mine for the Henkei version which is IMO the best, though the Universe repaint looked ok, if you like your Starscream white as opposed to light grey.

Outside of Thrust and Dirge, the Henkei versions seem to be the more cartoon accurate, but the classics are fine too.

Hmmm I wonder if instead of Sunstorm G2 Ramjet will be the next repaint?

[5FDP]

I prefer the Classics version of Ramjet over the Henkei one which has too much chrome (that looks out-of-place) for my liking.

On a personal note, Classics Ramjet is right up there with my top 5 toys released in recent memory.

[1AZRAEL1]

Just My opinion, but I prefer Hasbro's releases rather then TakTom, I don't like the chrome too much. To me, it looks tacky and out of place. But that is just personal preference.

[kup]

Just My opinion, but I prefer Hasbro's releases rather then TakTom, I don't like the chrome too much. To me, it looks tacky and out of place. But that is just personal preference.

How about figures such as Sunstreaker, Prowl, Streak and Smokescreen?

[1AZRAEL1]

How about figures such as Sunstreaker, Prowl, Streak and Smokescreen?

The darker shade of yellow on Sunstreaker does look a bit better, but I can't get passed the tacky look of the chrome. I haven't seen them first hand, but I think I would still have the same view of them if I did.

[kup]

The darker shade of yellow on Sunstreaker does look a bit better, but I can't get passed the tacky look of the chrome. I haven't seen them first hand, but I think I would still have the same view of them if I did.

Sunstreaker's chrome is very well applied and matches that of the original G1 toy nicely. The yellow is also even unlike Universe which has different shades. If you see the Henkei compared to Universe you do see a considerable difference and not just with the chrome but the overall paint job.

[5FDP]

The paint apps on Henkei Sunstreaker is a lot better than the Classics one. Henkei Sunstreaker is the only Henkei toy that I have and it was for this reason that I bought it.

Henkei Prowl / Silverstreak / and Smokescreen look so much better with chrome shoulder missiles as well.

The Henkei versions that I don't like are the ones that have chrome when there was none to begin with (on the original G1 toys) e.g. Ramjet. Just because they can, doesn't mean that they should.

[kup]

The chrome doesn't really bother me but I can see why it does to others. Fortunately most of the toys with 'odd chrome' are the molds that were released as Classics therefore the Hasbro versions are competently painted for the most part so you do get a choice of two reasonably good toy releases.

[1AZRAEL1]

Without seeing them compared in person, it is hard to see. Pictures on the net don't give the best impressions. That being said, my Sunstreaker is fine from memory.

[Darth Conlan]

Picked up Classics Acid Storm today. I like him a lot. A pretty cool figure. The first new one I have ever bought. I really like the articulation on the new stuff. Going of what you all have said that the classics aren't much different to Henkei except chrome on some figures. If they are cheaper them I'm interested in them I think.

[1AZRAEL1]

Most people will say there is a superior paint job on the Henkei's as well, but me personally like the Classics/Universe versions better.

Acid Storm is a good figure IMO, love this mold particularly, though the whole Classic/Universe/Henkei line is a great updated representation of the figures we love.

[Gutsman Heavy]

You're onto a winner if you buy either the hasbro or henkei varieties.