Power Core Combiners - do the new Minicons count?

[SofaMan]

Up until now, we've counted Minicons as separate TFs for UCM (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=217) purposes. Problem is, these new Minicons don't really *feel* like Minicons in the traditional sense; they feel more like Nebulans (which don't count separately).

Of course, we count Crosswise and Rook, who don't really have real individual modes either and are essentially Headmasters.

I'm not sure where I stand quite yet, and thought that in the interests of muddying the waters it was worth having a discussion about. :D

[fatbot]

woo hoo first vote! At the moment I believe they should, but we really need to wait for some official fiction with them in it. The card backs do state they are partnered with the mini-con, but that may not be enough to statisfy the pundits.

[Sky Shadow]

As much as I think it's irrelevant and I can't think of a reason why anyone would need to count their toys anyway...

I instinctively voted no. Probably only because I particularly think that those drone-limb thingys shouldn't count, though. Which isn't even what this poll seems to be about. Oh well. :)

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

They're named, they're interchangeable...I say let 'em count, but they have to use separate drinking fountains, sit at the back of the bus and give up their seat for Bulks.

[griffin]

Quote from Hasbro Designers in #32 of the Collector Club Magazine:



...the Power Core Mini-cons are not tied to Unicron or the Last Autobot. ...we see the Mini-cons existing as another 'race' of Transformers on Cybertron, versus being tied to a specific being or theme.


A bit vague, but sounds like it is a resetting of the Mini-con story concept, so that they are back to being a third race of beings, that have an unknown allegiance and origin.

[SofaMan]

I instinctively voted no. Probably only because I particularly think that those drone-limb thingys shouldn't count, though. Which isn't even what this poll seems to be about. Oh well. :)

Yeah, I wasn't even considering those limb drones as separate toys.

[GoktimusPrime]

Article 07 already states that drones don't count. So don't worry about including them in this poll.

Now Article 02 states:

Nebulans, Master Robots, Motorvator partners, Pretender/Crossformer/Dinoforce shells and Action Master partners and vehicles do not count separately.
I agree that the PowerCore MiniCons are similar to Nebulans or Action Master partners which transform into weapons and accessories (and vehicles) for their larger primary Transformer partners. In effect they themselves are accessories (who happen to be named and can transform).

So if the majority vote "no" then I think we should lump them in with Article 02. If the majority votes "yes" then Article 02 will have to include a disclaimer that exempts them.

I'm going with no.


At the moment I believe they should, but we really need to wait for some official fiction with them in it
But Nebulans have extensive official fiction written for them (e.g. Spike Witwicky), yet they don't count independently.


They're named, they're interchangeable...I say let 'em count
Nebulans, Action Master Partners and some "peripheral" Transformers (re: Article 07) such as Scamper, Six Gun, Gasket, Grommet, Full-Tilt, Fasttrack et al. do not count separately according to the UCM. So why should these MiniCons?

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd like to add that one rationale that was discussed during other UCM poll threads was whether or not these toys would be considered to be meaningful Transformer action figures in their own right. The basic way to answer this question is to ask yourself, "Would I buy this toy if it were sold on its own?" (and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it)

For example, would you buy Chopster if it were sold on its own and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it? The Armada Mini-Con Rollbar on the other hand has better inherent play value as a Transformer action figure in its own right. In fact, IMO that Mini-Con is a better Transformer toy than Scavenger! On its own Rollbar is a lot like a Micromaster and has the same play value. Chopster on the other hand has the equivalent play value of a Nebulan, which most people don't count separately.

[kup]

Those limb things are more like upgrade accessories than actual individual toys so I say no.

[SMHFConvoy]

They're named, they're interchangeable...I say let 'em count, but they have to use separate drinking fountains, sit at the back of the bus and give up their seat for Bulks.
I voted yes they count and they're much more streamlined than previous mini-cons

[SofaMan]

For example, would you buy Chopster if it were sold on its own and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it? The Armada Mini-Con Rollbar on the other hand has better inherent play value as a Transformer action figure in its own right. In fact, IMO that Mini-Con is a better Transformer toy than Scavenger! On its own Rollbar is a lot like a Micromaster and has the same play value. Chopster on the other hand has the equivalent play value of a Nebulan, which most people don't count separately.

I like this argument, but it doesn't address Rook and Crosswise, who of course were Minicons that came with an Armada deluxe toy. Their only value is either together as a combiner, or as headmasters for Sideways. Dead End that came with Unicron could probably be included too. If we count them (even though they are the outliers of the Armada minicons), then I think we should count the PCC minicons.

Perhaps it's worth amending Articles 2 and 3 to accomodate this new argument about "independent play value", rather than creating arbitrary and unwieldy (albeit democratic) exceptions.

[GoktimusPrime]

I got Smoulder and Searchlight today -- and I must say that I'm enjoying my humble pie right now because I'm rather impressed. These toys, and yes, their Mini-Cons, exceeded my expectations.

So... I'd like to change my vote to a "yes" (I'd initially voted "no"). And I'd encourage others to wait until you've seen these toys for yourselves IRL before judging. :)


I like this argument, but it doesn't address Rook and Crosswise, who of course were Minicons that came with an Armada deluxe toy. Their only value is either together as a combiner, or as headmasters for Sideways.
Ditto Energon Omega Supreme's Mini-Con (I call him Omega Spreem ;)). Again, I'm not currently fussed about their inclusion because they're so few that it wouldn't effect the final results. If the majority of people vote for PCC mini-cons not to be counted, then I will reconsider amending Articles 02 and 03 to accomodate the special exemption for "Mini-Cons without independent play value."


Perhaps it's worth amending Articles 2 and 3 to accomodate this new argument about "independent play value", rather than creating arbitrary and unwieldy (albeit democratic) exceptions.
Classification will always be arbitrary and unwieldy... after all, even the exact definition of "independent play value" could be debated. For better or worse I like the fact that the UCM was democratically created. :)

I've also put this issue to vote with international fans too. :) I've also started a poll asking about how Combiner Class Devastator should be counted. Erm... has such a poll or discussion already occured here? (naturally I'd like to avoid making such a poll here if it's already been done) -- I tried doing a search but couldn't find anything.

[SofaMan]

Classification will always be arbitrary and unwieldy... after all, even the exact definition of "independent play value" could be debated. For better or worse I like the fact that the UCM was democratically created. :)

That's true, though I like the idea of "independent play value" as a guiding principle for helping to make decisions on this kind of thing.

And as for RotF Devastator, he's just a big Duocon with six parts. A Sexacon. :eek:

As Gimli said, "That still only counts as one!".

[griffin]

I'd like to add that one rationale that was discussed during other UCM poll threads was whether or not these toys would be considered to be meaningful Transformer action figures in their own right. The basic way to answer this question is to ask yourself, "Would I buy this toy if it were sold on its own?" (and you didn't necessarily intend on buying another Transformer to interact with it)


I've come across a similar 'general rule', relating to how it is reviewed - would you review it on its own or with another figure. Generally*, if smaller figures in a multi-pack is rarely seen reviewed on its own, most would often not count it as a stand-alone toy when counting a collection. Example, would you see reviews of any of the following on their own - AM partners, Scamper, individual components of either ROTF Devastator, Nebulans?
Just because PCC's partners are called the same as Armada TFs partners, doesn't mean they have to be lumped together. This is a new line with a new concept/gimmick that differs from Armada Minicons. We are only getting 9 PCC 2-packs (9 Minicons) this year (according to Hasbro), so until we start getting more of a story and characterisation behind these Minicons, I won't be deciding until later.

(* 'Generally' doesn't mean 'always', so it can still be messy with exceptions occuring)

[SMHFConvoy]

I got Smoulder and Searchlight today -- and I must say that I'm enjoying my humble pie right now because I'm rather impressed. These toys, and yes, their Mini-Cons, exceeded my expectations.

Backwind (unfortunate name there!) projects a bit of personality with his gorilla like proportions. I put Seachlight on layby but I already have Smoulder and Chopster. Just because it's a rainy day I also came up with my sig image in the spirit of fun. I'll whip up another heralding the exact opposite later...

[liegeprime]

hmmm Ive always counted the minicons in my collection count anyways:p. I mean even if as per UCM the partnered minicons arent counted - there's the 3 pack ones - kinda like the micromaster patrols so those count , so why not the partnered ones as well? and now these ones too, YES for me.

Ive also put on lay by a lot of these PCC ones today. saw them at the racks and swiped them up quick, coincidentally Gok was calling me while Im browsing the aisles heheheh:D. I feel cheated on the scout now though coz they're just 1 figure and they're priced just the same as the PCC 2-pack ;)

[GoktimusPrime]

Backwind (unfortunate name there!)
Not as unfortunate as Windbreaker. ;)


projects a bit of personality with his gorilla like proportions.
Armour not Munky!


Just because it's a rainy day I also came up with my sig image in the spirit of fun. I'll whip up another heralding the exact opposite later...
I was about to say -- you change your avatar more often than I^some people change their undies! :D ;) :p

[kup]

To make myself clear:

Minicons should be counted because they are transforming robots as well as individual toys.

PCC 'drones' should not be counted because they don't have a robot mode and are just accessories to 'power up' the center bot. They are also Dependant on combining with the main figure for its playability otherwise they are just a static block.

[SharkyMcShark]

The UCM is needlessly complex and quite pointless really.

Anyway for my money they're separate.

[SharkyMcShark]

To make myself clear:

Minicons should be counted because they are transforming robots as well as individual toys.

PCC 'drones' should not be counted because they don't have a robot mode and are just accessories to 'power up' the center bot. They are also Dependant on combining with the main figure for its playability otherwise they are just a static block.

PCC drones do have separate robot modes.

[griffin]

PCC drones do have separate robot modes.

?

The Drones are the ones in the 5-packs, that just form limbs. They are spring-loaded to convert from vehicle to arm or leg. They don't have a robot mode, or any other mode.
They are exactly the same a Energon Prime's Drone limbs, except this time they are spring-loaded.

The 2-pack mini-figures are Minicons, not Drones, and they have a robot mode.

[SharkyMcShark]

Oh sorry I was thinking Chopster, Caliburst and the like. My bad

[griffin]

That's okay. It's a new line, and we're all still getting used to it. (took me a few news articles and reviews to realise the specifics between them all)

[GoktimusPrime]

well they're both called mini-cons which makes it very understandably confusing for people :( The drones really should have been called something else...

...but that would require effort. :p ;)

[griffin]

well they're both called mini-cons which makes it very understandably confusing for people :( The drones really should have been called something else...

...but that would require effort. :p ;)

?

The 4 vehicles in the 5-packs are only called Drones. Where have they been called MiniCons?

[GoktimusPrime]

oh really? I didn't know as I haven't seen them... but a lot of people (both here and on other boards) are referring to them as Mini-Cons.

But now I know and knowing is half the battle! :)

[SuspectimusPrime]

No~.

Wouldn't counting your collection be easier if the system was based on the mold, unit and packaging as determined by Hasbro/Takara?

These new Minicons are sold as gimmicks to the original scout figure - a marketing strategy that involves raising the customer-perceived value of an item(s) that would otherwise have a lesser value/price point. i.e. selling a Scout fig for $14-18AUD and a Minicon for $5-8AUD. So basically in line with the UCM's part on G1 Headmasters/Pretender shells (which I haven't read, but skimmed based on member posts in this discussion).

However, if Hasbro/Takara intends to re-release particular molds into separate packages, I hold that that mold be recounted as a separate fig for UCM purposes. i.e. Releasing Chopshop as an individually packaged fig.

This view will restrain unique molds to their original purpose of being an add-on value to the central figure, until that unique mold is determined by Hasbro/Takara for individual play.
Example 1: TF Cybertron's Vector Prime's Safeguard is only attainable by purchasing a Vector Prime mold (the original TF Cybertron one, the repainted Universe fig, and the Botcon repaint as Alpha Trion).
Example 2: Purchasing a new TF Energon Ultra Magnus with the Reqium Blaster (Minicons Payload, Skyblast and Astroscope) will qualify you for _two_ UCM; even though there are effectively five figs being obtained here, you can only otherwise obtain these five figs though buying TF Armada Overload, and TF Armada Space Minicon team.
Example 3: Minicon 3 packs will have a UCM count as _one unit_, whilst TF Universe Bruticus counts as _five units_; since the former has never been released separately (to my knowledge), whilst the latter was originally released separately (Originally TF Energon Bruticus Maximum - idiot me rigorously searching for the limbs and finally paying 4x $15 and 1x $25 through a lengthy 3 month ordeal, always fearing that I would have an incomplete Bruticus Maximus). Likewise, TF Animated Jetfire & Jetstorm counts as _ONE_.

In line with this view, I wouldn't be counting non-Hasbro/Takara releases part of UCM (quite sadly excluding Knight Morpher Commander/Hearts of Steel Optimus Prime).

I think that counting all these bits and pieces would be over-inflating your collection. Part of the fun in collecting is going out, finding, and buying something awesome and thinking to yourself, "Hey, Awesome!", rather than pushing for a big number to boast.

[GoktimusPrime]

Click here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=217) to read more about the UCM.

[dirge]

Wouldn't counting your collection be easier if the system was based on the mold, unit and packaging as determined by Hasbro/Takara?


Probably. But there are so many minor variants, packaging variants, overlaps and the like. In the end, you can count however you want. The UCM is simply designed as a means to make comparisons between collection sizes since everyone will count as they see fit. And it's optional :)

[Deonasis]

For the PCC drones in the 5 packs, treat them however you counted Energon Optimus limbs. As for the PCC 2 pack minicons, treat them as a minicon in their own right as they do transform and both figures in the pack can function seperate to each other.

[G1Optimal]

Voted No (for the drones in the 5pk only) and I'll try and give my personal views why :o

although, the Drones do Transform..
I personally, do not consider them to be "Individual type Transformers" which i personally accept to be individual type transformers to be counted at this stage (if i get them) as they just transform into Add-ons.

Especially of my interpretation of what "i think":o the explanation of the Power Core Combiners Drones..
Which is, that the drones had no personalities to make it easier to combine with the Core robot to avoid conflicting personalities while combined "or something like that. :o:o:o:o

[SuspectimusPrime]

Click here (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=217) to read more about the UCM.

OK, I came across these entirely by chance. Not sure where else would be a better place to post this (sorry), but while we're on the topic of UCM, here's a few figs that would raise questions with Articles 2 and 3 (of which I've now read, and noted that the forum is a stagnant).... If I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/kaku.html
http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/lione.html
http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/loafer.html
http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/rodney.html
http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/shuffler.html
http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/trizer.html

Didn't see these listed under the Collective Collection thread, so does someone here in Australia own these? How awesome.

Searched them up after finding these:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Transformers-Japanese-G1-Headmaster-KAKU-MISB-AFA-Ready-/150364225202?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230267feb2#ht_2663wt_912
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Transformers-Japanese-G1-Headmaster-ROHULA-MISB-AFA-/150380141377?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item23035adb41#ht_3031wt_912

Just won an auction for a ROTF Banzaitron from that seller :D Let's hope it actually gets here..

[dirge]

http://www.cobraislandtoys.com/tf/1987/shuffler.html

Didn't see these listed under the Collective Collection thread, so does someone here in Australia own these? How awesome.



griffin owns all but this one, from memory.