Unauthorised products section created

[griffin]

After it was mentioned on the Section Mods area to have a separate section for the unauthorised/unlicensed stuff, I've created a section and moved relavant topics into it.

As much as I don't like supporting them, I seem to be upsetting more people by making a stand against it, so why not just have a separate section tucked away at the back of the board? ...and it would make it easier to purge the board of them later if Hasbro ever decide to crack down on them.

It will also make it easier to keep these things out of the news sections, unlike the global forums, which really frustrate me having to scroll through pages of 'news' that isn't even on legit Hasbro/TT TFs.

[Sky Shadow]

It will also make it easier to keep these things out of the news sections, unlike the global forums, which really frustrate me having to scroll through pages of 'news' that isn't even on legit Hasbro/TT TFs.

Hear, hear! (And well done with all the topic moving.)

[dirge]

Yeah, I was thinking we should probably isolate this discussion, for those who care about it - leaving those of us who don't an easy option to ignore.

Do we still have the disclaimer of not _promoting_ unlicensed products?

[GoktimusPrime]

I thought the section descriptor was like a disclaimer:
"The Admin of this site doesn't endorse items produced without first seeking permission or licensing, but until Hasbro acts against it, this site won't be doing their job for them. KOs and counterfeit/replica toys are still not allowed here. Only items that are TFs themed/inspired."

Perhaps it could be rephrased as:
"OTCA administration does not endorse any unlicensed products. The views expressed in this section are the views of individual members and do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of, and should not be attributed to, OTCA. Pirated knock-offs/bootlegged counterfeit imitations are forbidden, only unlicensed products that are Transformer theme/inspired."

[griffin]

I chose the words 'without first seeking permission', because I would probably support a fan-project that actually had the courage to approach Hasbro for permission. If it was knocked back for no reasonable reason, then I'd be willing to support them for trying to do the right thing.

[GoktimusPrime]

How about:

"OTCA administration does not endorse any unlicensed products without first attempting to obtain permission or licensing. The views expressed in this section are of individual members and do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of OTCA. Pirated knock-offs/bootlegged counterfeit imitations are forbidden, only unlicensed products that are Transformer theme/inspired."

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Good call Chief.

[STL]

I'm really sorry. This is just a silly idea.

1. Aren't there enough sections on the boards these days? Do we really want an extra one?
2. Why not lump them with KOs? I mean, really? Unclicensed TFs? Why don't we just call them "3rd party products" if you want to be so politically correct. Lump them together, call them "illegal TFs" and stuff all of this political correctness.

As far as I can see, this is dancing around the issue so people don't have to feel bad about themselves for buying an illegal product. Nice and fuzzy names ain't going to change that one iota.

[kup]

I'm really sorry. This is just a silly idea.

1. Aren't there enough sections on the boards these days? Do we really want an extra one?
2. Why not lump them with KOs? I mean, really? Unclicensed TFs? Why don't we just call them "3rd party products" if you want to be so politically correct. Lump them together, call them "illegal TFs" and stuff all of this political correctness.

As far as I can see, this is dancing around the issue so people don't have to feel bad about themselves for buying an illegal product. Nice and fuzzy names ain't going to change that one iota.

No. That would end up making no distinction between KOs and 3rd Parties causing even more problems.

[The_Damned]

i agree with stl one of the things that attracted me to this board was there was not to many sections and parts.you have to becareful about not spreading the board to thin and therefore risking watering down the transformers part of the board which is why i come here.

[STL]

No. That would end up making no distinction between KOs and 3rd Parties causing even more problems.

What? There aren't enough sections on the board already these days? I mean, we're probably just short of a Movie section, a Yamato section, a Bandai section if that's the case.

And do explain, how does lumping KOs and your so-called "3rd parties" (IE. illegal, unlicencsed, copyright stealing products) cause "even more problems"? As far as I can tell, wasn't there just a thread in the KO section glowingly talking about the headmaster KOs? Same thing as illegal products. Should we really be promoting either - given Griffin's own hesitance in creating a section for it in the first. Slap a label, whatever you want on the section, just lump them together and stop wasting sections and clogging up the board.

[5FDP]

Just my two cents - I agree with STL. It would be easier to just have the one section for KO's / third party products because the distinction between the two is a very fine line. This would also assist in reducing the number of sections on the board.

[Deceptic_Optic]

Just my two cents - I agree with STL. It would be easier to just have the one section for KO's / third party products because the distinction between the two is a very fine line. This would also assist in reducing the number of sections on the board.

does this include fansproject as well?

[1AZRAEL1]

does this include fansproject as well?

I would so. Fans Project would be classed under 3rd Party projects.

[5FDP]

does this include fansproject as well?

In my opinion yes. FansProject, iGear, Justittoys, HeadRobots etc. They all make unlicensed products that are intentionally aimed at the Transformer collector.

I'm not referring to any legalities or moralities, but the fact remains that they are not endorsed by either Hasbro or TakaraTomy which in some sense, places them in the same category as the KO makers.

[jaydisc]

The distinction between the two continues to weaken every day. Example:

1. PP01 Faith Leader, a near exact replica of MP1, but smaller.
2. PP03E Elegy, while containing many aspects of MP3, has different wings, colours and head. Maybe more?

Let's pretend the next release is the same colors as Thrust, but they rework the transformation to work slightly differently than Hastak's. At that point, is it still worthy of distinction from something like FansProject Defender?

[kup]

Fan Projects Defender does not plagiarize a Hasbro mold.

[Bartrim]

Come on guys let not start this debate... especially in the section I'm a Moderator for (Being a mod for this section is pretty cruisy:p)

[Saintly]

There's going to be a great divide if we keep going down this path.

Let's take the word "Authorised" and if we say HasTak have authorised TF products, then everything else falls under unauthorised including KOs.

STL is correct but so is Griffin,... Griffin makes a silent point (I think) to only purchase what HasTak offers regardless of how good some of these FanProject, iGear kits are.

So how about we have a "Unauthorised" section and have sub-categories of FanProject, iGear, KOs, etc.. that should satisfy the masses?

[GoktimusPrime]

1. unlicensed fan items aren't all necessarily the same as counterfeits. A counterfeit is, by the very definition of the word, something "made in imitation so as to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine." (reference (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/counterfeit))
2. as heroic_decepticon pointed out in another thread, unlicensed toys based on toys that Hasbro aren't making aren't necessarily illegal per se. Seems like a bit of a legal grey area. :/
3. I agree with others have said - I do like how the section removes posts/threads about unlicensed fan items that otherwise clutter the board that should be about genuine licensed Transformers items.

[SamLoi888]

There's a lot of sections on the board here. It reminds me of Autobase Australia...except with people.

[jaydisc]

Fan Projects Defender does not plagiarize a Hasbro mold.

Correct. Just a character.

Some aspects of Elegy also do not plagiarize a mold. And as I said, what if future releases plagiarize less. What percentage of originality is required to pass your valuation?

[5FDP]

Let's take the word "Authorised" and if we say HasTak have authorised TF products, then everything else falls under unauthorised including KOs.


That sums it up nicely :)

[kup]

Correct. Just a character.

Some aspects of Elegy also do not plagiarize a mold. And as I said, what if future releases plagiarize less. What percentage of originality is required to pass your valuation?

My sense of originality is basically to produce something new that HasTak has refused or is very unlikely to do in the future.

I can't deny that there is some character plagiarism but it is still very different looking to Hasbro's character model of Springer and any other toy of him despite the strong resemblance.

Fan Projects is more guilty of purposely 'resembling' characters but it is still very vague and rather benign when compared to KOs and replicas.

[GoktimusPrime]

Correct. Just a character.

Some aspects of Elegy also do not plagiarize a mold. And as I said, what if future releases plagiarize less.
You're right - it is plagiarising another character's likeness.


What percentage of originality is required to pass your valuation?
Whether or not it's a counterfeit. While that Defender thingy may infringe upon G1 Springer's likeness, it is not an imitation that is attempting to deceive people into believing that it's a genuine G1 Springer toy.

[jaydisc]

You both sound like you've rationalized this in a way that you're each comfortable with. Now can everyone else do the same without facing anyone else's judgement?

[5FDP]

While that Defender thingy may infringe upon G1 Springer's likeness, it is not an imitation that is attempting to deceive people into believing that it's a genuine G1 Springer toy.

While most Transformer fans would know that this is not a 'genuine G1 Springer toy', there are also new fans that would not be able to tell the difference and may assume that it's an authorised HasTak product.

To me, the whole purpose of an online fan community is to share our knowledge and educate others. To a new fan considering registration on OTCA, it would be mightily confusing when presented with an 'unauthorised' and 'KO' section when as I mentioned previously, the line between the two is so thin that it even confuses seasoned board members as is evident in this discussion.

[kurdt_the_goat]

i agree with stl one of the things that attracted me to this board was there was not to many sections and parts.you have to becareful about not spreading the board to thin and therefore risking watering down the transformers part of the board which is why i come here.

I much prefer less categorized board structure. The biggest gaming forum NeoGAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/) has 3 categories of discussion. The result is a faster paced board that seems more active (often OTCA has less members online than there are categories!). More topics come past the front page so you have more chance of getting people into a discussion (rather than having a thread lost in a category). People can subscribe to a thread if it's of significant interest.

If i were to rearrange the board i would have:
Board Info
Transformers
Meetups
Sales
Sightings
Everything else
Though i guess it'd ruffle some feathers to change it now :p

At the very least, decide something and stick to it please... I had just learned the old category layout before it changed again recently!

[griffin]

The growing number of sections was starting to bother me as well, which is why I've already started condensing/hiding sections. But every section was originally created for a reason, at some point in time.
I will merge the KO and Unauthorised sections, as there isn't enough traffic to support two sections (and I wouldn't be wanting that much traffic either).
I want to look at the 'sub-forum' concept - which has related sections merged on the main table, but each section should still exist like a filter when looking for certain types of topics.

[STL]

I'm going to ignore the "I need to make myself comfortable about stealing someone else's property" crowd and stay on the point that the board does need less sections. I like what Kurdt had to say:


I much prefer less categorized board structure. The biggest gaming forum NeoGAF (http://www.neogaf.com/forum/) has 3 categories of discussion. The result is a faster paced board that seems more active (often OTCA has less members online than there are categories!). More topics come past the front page so you have more chance of getting people into a discussion (rather than having a thread lost in a category). People can subscribe to a thread if it's of significant interest.

If i were to rearrange the board i would have:
Board Info
Transformers
Meetups
Sales
Sightings
Everything else
Though i guess it'd ruffle some feathers to change it now :p

At the very least, decide something and stick to it please... I had just learned the old category layout before it changed again recently!

I'm inclined to agree. And that sub forum idea might work to Griffin. Some of my additional thoughts are that are that all of the toy stuff can be merged into one section. I love Lego again but heck even I don't feel there's enough traffic to justify the section. Non-toy stuff can remain its own little section.

[griffin]

All those other toy sections will be relocated (eventually) to their own forum - creating their own separate sections here was meant to be a transitional step to see where the interest most lies. (it's just been a issue of expense at this time, delaying that move)

And I wanted to mention - grouping sections together that are related (like KOs and Unauthorised items, or other sections) doesn't suggest or imply that they are exactly the same legally or ethically (that's for lawyers to determine).

[GoktimusPrime]

You both sound like you've rationalized this in a way that you're each comfortable with. Now can everyone else do the same without facing anyone else's judgement?
I thought I was rationalising it according to the actual definition of a counterfeit.
1: "an imitation intended to be passed off fraudulently or deceptively as genuine; forgery." (dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/counterfeit))
2: "an imitation, usually one that is made with the intent of fraudulently passing it off as genuine."

Btw, I never said that this makes fan-items any better or worse or more or less acceptable than counterfeits. I've merely said that this is what distinguishes them apart and what would be acceptable for the unauthorised TF section and what would not. It doesn't mean I'm condoning one over the other. I personally don't condone either and as a general rule I don't buy toys that aren't manufactured under licence by HasTak. I'm assuming that you (and STL) also don't buy unauthorised toys either, given your rather vehement stance against them.

griffin: I like the idea of merging both unauthorised and KOs into one section with sub-forums (or if not, even just different threads). :)

[kup]

The growing number of sections was starting to bother me as well, which is why I've already started condensing/hiding sections. But every section was originally created for a reason, at some point in time.
I will merge the KO and Unauthorised sections, as there isn't enough traffic to support two sections (and I wouldn't be wanting that much traffic either).
I want to look at the 'sub-forum' concept - which has related sections merged on the main table, but each section should still exist like a filter when looking for certain types of topics.

To me this move adds legitimacy to KOs on the board by throwing the fan stuff along with replica or deceitful products. It blurrs the line.

But it's your call.

[STL]

To me this move adds legitimacy to KOs on the board by throwing the fan stuff along with replica or deceitful products. It blurrs the line.

But it's your call.

Adds legitimacy to what? It doesn't. They are all unauthorised whether it they be monkeys, barbies or zucchinis.

So you classify deceitful as good as stealing someone's property. Nice one.

Overall, I don't care. I think board efficiency is what is important here. Make it a place that's easy to navigate and participate.

[kup]

Adds legitimacy to what? It doesn't. They are all unauthorised whether it they be monkeys, barbies or zucchinis.

So you classify deceitful as good as stealing someone's property. Nice one.

Overall, I don't care. I think board efficiency is what is important here. Make it a place that's easy to navigate and participate.

I agreed that it was his call. Why continue on harping on about it?

[SamLoi888]

Prime's Transformers Movie News should be in Soundwave's Global News.

Laserbeak's AUS TFs Sightings should be in Outback's Australian News as a subsection.

Ratbat's Transformers Reviews and Scavenger's Acquisitions should be merged into one section.

Blackarachnia's Hideout should be disappeared altogether.

Member Sale Feedback should be a subsection or sticky in Members' Transformers Sales.

Lego, Mattel, Hasbro should be merged into All Other Toys as subsections so there is only two parts to Unicron's Oblivion.

[STL]

I agreed that it was his call. Why continue on harping on about it?

You qualified it. I replied to your suspect qualification. But hey, we both agree. It's his call. ;)

[Deonasis]

This would be my breakdown..

-Unauthorised products
--KOs
--3rd party products

All are unlicenced (check).
Keep KO's and 3rdParty separate because there are KO's of 3rdParty products (check).

Now where I-gear's Faith leader gets put is a different discussion that deals with the clarification of KO and 3rdParty. Let's not pollute this discussion and instead open a different thread up for this.

[Bartrim]

Prime's Transformers Movie News should be in Soundwave's Global News.

Laserbeak's AUS TFs Sightings should be in Outback's Australian News as a subsection.

Ratbat's Transformers Reviews and Scavenger's Acquisitions should be merged into one section.

Blackarachnia's Hideout should be disappeared altogether.

Member Sale Feedback should be a subsection or sticky in Members' Transformers Sales.

Lego, Mattel, Hasbro should be merged into All Other Toys as subsections so there is only two parts to Unicron's Oblivion.

I agree with most of this except I would keep the movie section seperate as it is a rather big part of Transformers at the moment. Maybe in a couple of years once the trilogy comes out in a box set on dvd and all that then it can merge into the global section.

Blackarachnia's Hideout has no bearing on me whatsoever so I can leave it be.

Everything else I agree with.

[jaydisc]

I'm assuming that you (and STL) also don't buy unauthorised toys either, given your rather vehement stance against them.

I don't know why you've assumed that. I've never been against "3rd Party Products" or "Replicas". While I don't personally buy "Replicas", I do not purport that there is any legal or ethical difference between the two.

[GoktimusPrime]

Legally both replicascounterfeits and 3rd Party Products are unauthorised IP infringements. However, as heroic_decepticon pointed out, not all IP infringements may be in breach of the law per se (re: de minimis non curat lex). Ethically speaking, well -- that greatly depends on one's personal values and opinions (e.g. deontology, consequentialism, utilitarianism, altruism etc.)

Classification - as always - is inherently arbitrary and subjective; just like any other system of classification, e.g. biology (do non-DNA based organisms (like a virus) count as living organisms?), astronomy (when Transformers first debuted Pluto was a planet!), geology (there's no consistent difference between what counts as a continent and what is an island) and of course, toys (e.g. counting methods).

So whether an ethical difference exists between the two entirely depends on one's own values and opinions - and there is no definitive 'right' or 'wrong' answer. For the purposes of what OTCA considers tolerable and intolerable unauthorised products - as far as I can see - appears to be based on counterfeits (KOs) being classified as intolerable, and 3rd party products being classified as tolerable.

Now I'm not saying that this classification is right or wrong, nor am I saying that your classification is right or wrong. They just come from different schools of ethical thought. But for the purposes of running the board, there needs to be a defined standard. And it's ultimately the admin's role to decide what that standard is.

[STL]

Legally both replicascounterfeits and 3rd Party Products are unauthorised IP infringements. However, as heroic_decepticon pointed out, not all IP infringements may be in breach of the law per se (re: de minimis non curat lex). Ethically speaking, well -- that greatly depends on one's personal values and opinions (e.g. deontology, consequentialism, utilitarianism, altruism etc.)

Classification - as always - is inherently arbitrary and subjective; just like any other system of classification, e.g. biology (do non-DNA based organisms (like a virus) count as living organisms?), astronomy (when Transformers first debuted Pluto was a planet!), geology (there's no consistent difference between what counts as a continent and what is an island) and of course, toys (e.g. counting methods).

So whether an ethical difference exists between the two entirely depends on one's own values and opinions - and there is no definitive 'right' or 'wrong' answer. For the purposes of what OTCA considers tolerable and intolerable unauthorised products - as far as I can see - appears to be based on counterfeits (KOs) being classified as intolerable, and 3rd party products being classified as tolerable.

Now I'm not saying that this classification is right or wrong, nor am I saying that your classification is right or wrong. They just come from different schools of ethical thought. But for the purposes of running the board, there needs to be a defined standard. And it's ultimately the admin's role to decide what that standard is.

Hey, you wanna talk about it? Try this thread here:
http://www.otca.com.au/boards/showthread.php?t=5212

Also, the subforum idea could work for the Members Feedback section as well if u place it under Members sales. I never even look at it personally but it just makes the board that much more cumbersome.

[jaydisc]

Looks like OTCA is not alone:

New Seibertron.com subforum: KO and 3rd Party toys forum! (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/new-seibertron-subforum-ko-and-3rd-party-toys-forum/19155/)

[Bartrim]

Looks like OTCA is not alone:

New Seibertron.com subforum: KO and 3rd Party toys forum! (http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/new-seibertron-subforum-ko-and-3rd-party-toys-forum/19155/)

I noticed that too lol:D

[5FDP]

Looks like OTCA is once again setting the standard by which other forums are run :D

[dirge]

Since this thread exists to announce the changes to board, can we limit the discussion of the ethics etc in here? Thanks for trying to steer discussion over to the relevant thread, STL.

/board staff :)

[Cmdr Prime]

Hear, hear! (And well done with all the topic moving.)

I do agree with Griffin on this one there should be a seperate section for that sort of thing

[Cmdr Prime]

Now just hang on there Sam loi888, there should be a Ladies Forum. Afterall we have one over on TFW2005 and its a success

[GoktimusPrime]

Now just hang on there Sam loi888, there should be a Ladies Forum. Afterall we have one over on TFW2005 and its a success

Blackarachnia's Hideout (http://www.otca.com.au/boards/forumdisplay.php?f=45)

[5FDP]

Isn't it just showing no posts because we don't have access :confused: From the front of the board it shows 3 active threads with 13 posts in total. I say leave it be... it's not taking any functionality away from the board.

[tinyJazz]

Now just hang on there Sam loi888, there should be a Ladies Forum. Afterall we have one over on TFW2005 and its a success

It's a success on a huge international site because they have more than 6 active female members. I would think.

What the heck do you guys (uh, girls) talk about over there anyway? :/


Back on topic: I don't see anything wrong with current board arrangement, I think it's fine as is. If anything the unauthorised products section makes it more organised. Now if only RK would do the same with their TF sections :mad: I'm sick of seeing an entire page of third party products before I get to any actual henkei transformers.

[Bartrim]

What about people who buy these products? Is it discouraged to post them in Scavengers Accqusition thread? Should they be posted in the non tf accquisition thread or should we have a new thread amongst the unauthorised section for accqusitions of these products?

[STL]

What about people who buy these products? Is it discouraged to post them in Scavengers Accqusition thread? Should they be posted in the non tf accquisition thread or should we have a new thread amongst the unauthorised section for accqusitions of these products?

I think this is a very delicate line to walk. Given the board staff's apparent stand on unauthorised toys; they shouldn't appear in the main acquisition threads. That would be consistent with the policy.

However, there is a blurry little line in the sand where different fans have different tolerances on what sort of unauthorised product is valid and acceptable. Some may see KOs as abhorrent. Some see some value to it. Some don't touch unlicensed stuff at all. By starting to selectively say what can be posted and what can't be, this is a messy situation. An outright ban might be effective but the problem with that is more and more, a lot of the new TF products that evoke the greatest excitement are unauthorised sections. By separating such acquisitions out, that will stifle the main thread b/c effectively you are creating two competing acquisition threads where people have to choose where to post - taking some of the fun and appreciation out of it as members can't just post it without having to go through a thought process where they judge the validity of their acquisition as "good" or "bad" . However, the problem with allowing unauthorised TFs in the main acquisitions threads is then aren't you effectively promoting unauthorised TFs. Isn't that against board policy?

Personally, I think the best is to allow acquisition threads to include unauthorised stuff but reviews/news or anything else must go to the unauthorised thread. The main acquisitions threads are about what people acquire for their individual collections. What they see as worthy of adding to their collection. To me, that should sit in one place.

I say this as someone who can't be bothered posting my acquisitions any more but does enjoy looking at the threads.