Why not release G1 in mainstream toy market?

[SkyWarp91]

May sound like a noob-ish question but considering the popularity behind G1 why doesn't Hasbro re-release it back into the general market and advertise it as 'Vintage' or something spiffy like so? I also know that Takara Tomy is doing encores and all, but they're so expensive because they're marketed as collector's toys! Given the technological advances in the last couple of decades I'm sure that producing G1 toys (even if it means having to recreate a template for production) wouldn't be so hard given the simplistic transformations.

've heard that most of the old templates used for some of the G1 original toys can't be used anymore (either lost or destroyed or something), is that right?

I also know that some of their g1 figures have been reproduced for the mainstream market (like G1 prime for the 25th Anniversary) but why are they so expensive?

[SharkyMcShark]

They did, about 5 - 7 years ago. The commemorative series, which re released a fair few of the G1 toys.

[SkyWarp91]

They did, about 5 - 7 years ago. The commemorative series, which re released a fair few of the G1 toys.

Yeah I remember the commemorative series, but wasn't those toys quite expensive? Like $70 for a vehicle like Jazz or something? I'm talking about why they don't release the G1 toys at a cheaper price - like $25 for a deluxe-ish sized figure.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

My guess would be becasue they would lack mainstream appeal. Sure the older folks would probably buy them up like nobody's business (especially at $25) but compared to toys today they are crappy and kids would be more inclined to go for the more recent ones I think. And kids are where Hasbro gets their moneys from.

Also need to bear in mind the cost for making the toys. I think Skids would be pricey to make, despite his scoutish size. They wouldn't be able to pump him out at whatever the cost of a scout is now methinks.

[SkyWarp91]

My guess would be becasue they would lack mainstream appeal. Sure the older folks would probably buy them up like nobody's business (especially at $25) but compared to toys today they are crappy and kids would be more inclined to go for the more recent ones I think. And kids are where Hasbro gets their moneys from.

Also need to bear in mind the cost for making the toys. I think Skids would be pricey to make, despite his scoutish size. They wouldn't be able to pump him out at whatever the cost of a scout is now methinks.

Yeah, now that I think of it that way - even if they did release the G1 toys at the cheaper mainstream prices the only customer-base that would really buy the toys would be the collectors whereas the kids would prefer playing with the newer, technologically advanced toys. And you're right about the costs associated with reproduction, considering many of the G1 toys used chrome parts too; nowadays production at Hasbro has probably reached a point where they use much more environmental and costly efficient materials than back in the G1 line up.

Ah well, like SharkyMcShark said Hasbro did kind of try putting out the G1 line again in mainstream stores and marketed it as the 'Commerative series' but because they were quite expensive themselves the line didn't last that long (iirc).

[Gouki]

And ignoring cost, a vast number of G1 toys are, well, crap.

[5FDP]

Yeah I remember the commemorative series, but wasn't those toys quite expensive? Like $70 for a vehicle like Jazz or something?

We have TRU to thank for that. Astrotrain was available through Kmart around 2005 at a much more reasonable price of $20.

[liegeprime]

"snip" nowadays production at Hasbro has probably reached a point where they use much more environmental and costly efficient materials than back in the G1 line up. "snip"



not all materials they use are as yet"environmental friendly" though they appear to be startingto with he recent change from twist ties to twist papers..... also adding to the cost is that of petrol cost. Since plastic is a by product produced from oil it all depends on the suppy... those oil leaks in the news isnt helping at all as well.... thousands of oil supply wasted and damaging the surrounding environment thereby decreasing supply threby increasing oil prices...and so on and so forth...

[MV75]

1. TRU screwed up the prices to insane levels. I bought my commemoratives all from ebay.
2. There is no supporting cartoon.
3. We have lip service and mainstream appeal in the new classics and generations line.
4. We have TakTom releasing encore lines with new (risky) molds that hasbro would never do.

[GoktimusPrime]

As others have pointed out, it's because the majority of the market for Transformers is children. We adult collectors are minority. The G1 reissues are also produced in limited numbers too because they're for a small niche market. In Australia most reissues were store exclusives too (e.g. Toys R Us).

The thing with G1 reissues now is that I think HasTak have already reissued almost all early G1 moulds that are still in existence. Moulds for figures like the Dinobots, Wheeljack, Sunstreaker etc. have either been officially confirmed or are rumoured to be lost or irreparably damaged/destroyed. Other moulds like Shockwave, Jetfire, the Deluxe Autobots, Deluxe Insecticons etc. didn't belong to Takara. When Takara merged with TOMY they did reissue moulds that belonged to TOMY like Sky Lynx and Omega Supreme. But otherwise there aren't a whole lot of G1 moulds that we know HasTak still have that they could reissue.

Trypticon is a possibility -- but I've heard rumours that Metroplex and Omega Supreme shelfwarmed. If this is true then I can understand TakaraTOMY's hesitance in reissuing Trypticon. Fortress Maximus is a possibility for Japan... but Hasbro could never reissue it because the mould doesn't satisfy current US toy safety regulations (re: drop test). And again, if the other cityformers have shelfwarmed then Fort Max would definitely be out of the question.

[5FDP]

So... to summarise what Gok is saying - buy three of every Encore / reissue and do your bit for the fan community ;) Maybe if we all spend enough, we may be lucky enough to get a Fort Max reissue :D

[SharkyMcShark]

I'd like to see reissues of later toys.

Even just some of the early targetmasters and headmasters would be nice.

[kup]

I'd like to see reissues of later toys.

Even just some of the early targetmasters and headmasters would be nice.

I would love Japanese G1 reissues like Star Saber, Raiden , Nightbeat/Minerva, etc. However I have no idea if they have the molds and even if they do, those characters may be of too limited appeal.

[liegeprime]

Those japanese only Dinobot tapes would be an awesome reissue:D I'd surely grab a couple of sets

[GoktimusPrime]

I'd love me a Lio Kaiser reissue long time. But yeah... it seems that post GeeWun reissues may hold a too limited appeal to be viable. :/ :( I remember reissue God Ginrai shelfwarmed badly -- even import stores in Sydney slashed prices down to $20 a pop to get rid of the dead stock!

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

yeh, i saw God Ginrai on my second trip to japan, but didn't get it due to no more $$. then when I got married, I asked my bro inlaw to go to the shop and pick it up. I was shocked to see that he was successful! This was a good year or so after I saw it...

It's a shame really, I would be in for some long time loving of Lio kaiser too. Overlord would top of my list as well. Heck, pretty much all the masterforce would be there too.

[kurdt_the_goat]

I'd love me a Lio Kaiser reissue long time. But yeah... it seems that post GeeWun reissues may hold a too limited appeal to be viable. :/ :( I remember reissue God Ginrai shelfwarmed badly -- even import stores in Sydney slashed prices down to $20 a pop to get rid of the dead stock!

Calling all Sydney-siders who bought doubles and triples at that time, to sell to me now for cheap! :D

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

I just thought of this this morning. Would there be royalty fees on the alt modes now as well?

Most of the Autobot cars are definitely identifiable as a specific type of car, eg Sideswipe is definitely a Lambourghini, Megatron is a Waltham, whereas now they have a tendency to use a generic 'sports car with lambourghini influences.' So back in the 80's I am sure that there may have been some flexibility in the licensing etc. wehreas now, Lambo would be all over it for using their IP.

That could add to the cost of the toys as well. Especially if they are having to fork out to so many different companies.

[kup]

I just thought of this this morning. Would there be royalty fees on the alt modes now as well?

Most of the Autobot cars are definitely identifiable as a specific type of car, eg Sideswipe is definitely a Lambourghini, Megatron is a Waltham, whereas now they have a tendency to use a generic 'sports car with lambourghini influences.' So back in the 80's I am sure that there may have been some flexibility in the licensing etc. wehreas now, Lambo would be all over it for using their IP.

That could add to the cost of the toys as well. Especially if they are having to fork out to so many different companies.

Obviously for Binaltechs and Alternities, royalties must be paid as the figures are accurate scale models of real brand cars. For toys which 'resemble' brand name cars like Classics Sunstreaker - I doubt it. Hasbro in a sense plays the same game as FansProject, they make a car that resembles a real car model (Lamborghini for Classics Sunstreaker) but with enough changes so that there are enough differences in it so it can be argued that it's something new they made up and not have to pay royalties.

I think the movie figures a a bit of a different story they fall more into the movie 'product placement' category. A deal must have been struck with GM to include toys when the TF Movie was being negotiated.

[GoktimusPrime]

yeah but we're talking about G1 reissues. I suspect that they don't need to pay royalties for reissuing existing moulds. The royalties and permission would have already been obtained at the time the toys moulds were created and patented, and after that I think that's it.

One reason why I suspect this is so is because look at Bumblebee. We know that for a long time Volkswagen has persistently refused to allow any of their vehicles to be associated with war, which is why the only post-G1 VW Transformer mould we've seen has been the Donald Duck Disney Label TF (since Donald Duck isn't portrayed as being a warrior/soldier in that toy). Yet HasTak have been able to reissue the original Bumblebee mould ... re (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F0InQVHOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)pe (http://tfu.info/2003/Cybertron/BlackBumblebee/bumblebee.htm)at (http://tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/ReBumblebee/bumblebee.htm)edly (http://toyarena.com/images/tfc12.jpg)! And they were able to reuse the mould for Glyph (http://tfu.info/2002/Autobot/Glyph/glyph.htm) and Bug Bite (http://tfu.info/2004/Destron/BugBite/bugbite.htm).

[kup]

yeah but we're talking about G1 reissues. I suspect that they don't need to pay royalties for reissuing existing moulds. The royalties and permission would have already been obtained at the time the toys moulds were created and patented, and after that I think that's it.

One reason why I suspect this is so is because look at Bumblebee. We know that for a long time Volkswagen has persistently refused to allow any of their vehicles to be associated with war, which is why the only post-G1 VW Transformer mould we've seen has been the Donald Duck Disney Label TF (since Donald Duck isn't portrayed as being a warrior/soldier in that toy). Yet HasTak have been able to reissue the original Bumblebee mould ... re (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F0InQVHOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)pe (http://tfu.info/2003/Cybertron/BlackBumblebee/bumblebee.htm)at (http://tfu.info/2004/Cybertron/ReBumblebee/bumblebee.htm)edly (http://toyarena.com/images/tfc12.jpg)! And they were able to reuse the mould for Glyph (http://tfu.info/2002/Autobot/Glyph/glyph.htm) and Bug Bite (http://tfu.info/2004/Destron/BugBite/bugbite.htm).

I agree that G1 reissues probably don't apply as the molds were made ages ago. However I disagree that there was any licensing obtained back then in regards to toys. Back then the corporate culture of suing anybody for whispering your trademark didn't exist at the ridiculous level that exists now.

For example, Porche back then didn't care if you made a kid's toy matching their car model as long as you weren't making cars yourself or cutting into their profits. If Porche knew about it, they would probably feel complimented at the gesture and as a form of free advertisement. Nowadays there is a somewhat industry which is dedicated to tracking down any form of trademark infringement to sue for profit.

In regards to the VW beetle, people are way over sensitive these days with all the PC bullcrap and that's why VW is afraid of anything that vaguely resembles war given their role during WWII

[SkyWarp91]

In regards to the VW beetle, people are way over sensitive these days with all the PC bullcrap and that's why VW is afraid of anything that vaguely resembles war given their role during WWII

Yeah, somehow Bumblebee is an ethnical cleansing warrior.... **looks at Decepticons**

[GoktimusPrime]

but kup, HasTak have reissued Bumblebee and Jazz in recent times and I don't think either Porsche or Volkswagen took legal action against them for it. There must be some legal clause that allows HasTak to reissue Transformers based on licensed vehicles where the mould was made a long time ago -- cos otherwise why hasn't HasTak been sued for their reissues of Jazz, Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Red Alert etc.? These reissues only came out fairly recently (especially Encores).

[kup]

but kup, HasTak have reissued Bumblebee and Jazz in recent times and I don't think either Porsche or Volkswagen took legal action against them for it. There must be some legal clause that allows HasTak to reissue Transformers based on licensed vehicles where the mould was made a long time ago -- cos otherwise why hasn't HasTak been sued for their reissues of Jazz, Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Red Alert etc.? These reissues only came out fairly recently (especially Encores).

As I mentioned, that's because those molds are old. The mold itself is now owned by Hasbro not VW, Porche, etc. Legal ownership was taken by Hasbro way before the corporate world turned trademark infringement prosecution as a viable form of revenue. It would be too messy to sue someone who legally took ownership of something 25+ years ago.

[Tetsuwan Convoy]

As I mentioned, that's because those molds are old. The mold itself is now owned by Hasbro not Porche, etc. Legal ownership was taken by Hasbro way before the corporate world turned trademark infringement prosecution as a viable form of revenue. It would be too messy to sue someone who legally took ownership of something 25+ years ago.

Yeh, but this is talking about G1 re-issues and trademarks, not classics. I only referred to classics as a reference for how they get around it now. My initial thoughts were on them having to pay royalties on re-issued G1s (such as, as Gok pointed out, the Encores etc.) as they are definitley a copy of real vehicles.

I am sure they would have royalties on the movie, alterntors and alterniteis, as they have the logo and tradmark stuffs all over the packet, but this thread is talking about G1.

[SharkyMcShark]

Apparently actions brought for basing something on a vehicle without licensing it is a viable source of revenue now.

:rolleyes:

[kup]

Yeh, but this is talking about G1 re-issues and trademarks, not classics. I only referred to classics as a reference for how they get around it now. My initial thoughts were on them having to pay royalties on re-issued G1s (such as, as Gok pointed out, the Encores etc.) as they are definitley a copy of real vehicles.

I am sure they would have royalties on the movie, alterntors and alterniteis, as they have the logo and tradmark stuffs all over the packet, but this thread is talking about G1.

I am also talking about G1 reissues. A comment was made onto why Classics or any new mold they make needs to have some sort of licensing attached if it resembles a real car while reissues do not. This is why Classics and other toys 'resemble' real car models but are actually very different in order to avoid infringement (same tactic FansProject uses with their toys) while this isn't a problem with reissues.

As mentioned, I don't think this applies to G1 for the reasons in my previous post. The reason they don't release G1 toys onto the mainstream have nothing to do with trademarks or licensing. It's rather the present scope of Hasbro's business model which focuses on the mainstream/Retail market rather than the collector market.

[kup]

Apparently actions brought for basing something on a vehicle without licensing it is a viable source of revenue now.

:rolleyes:

I am pretty sure there is a bit of an industry with law firms on the look out for any form of copyright infringement which they can make a case out of. They then take the proposed case to the company being 'infringed' and they tell them how much money they can make if they win with the firm taking a cut.

http://tcattorney.typepad.com/ip/

http://www.artlaws.com/

As mentioned (and back on topic): I believe that the factor of having to pay royalties to car companies has little or nothing to do as to why Hasbro doesn't release G1 toys. Those molds were already legally owned by Hasbro/Takara 25+ years ago. It's about collector pieces not being part of Hasbro's business model when it comes to retail.

[SkyWarp91]

I read somewhere about how Porsche no longer wanted to be associated with Transformers as TF was about destructive war-fighting robots.

Good on you Porsche, now you can keep your only reputation of selling cars to men who are having a mid-life crisis!

[GoktimusPrime]

That's only partially true. Porsche/Volkswagen don't want their cars "associated with war" -- and since the majority of Transformers series are associated with an intergalactic civil war, then yeah, they can't be associated. But there's been at least one exception to this and that was Transformers Disney Label's Donald Duck. It's a Transformer and it's a VW. This was obviously permitted because Disney Label Transformers are not tied-in with any other Transformer continuities which are associated with war.

[kup]

This was obviously permitted because Disney Label Transformers are not tied-in with any other Transformer continuities which are associated with war.

Donald isn't exactly disassociated with war (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNF86jBByDg&feature=related) ;)

He should have been driving a Panzer instead of a VW :p

[SharkyMcShark]

I am pretty sure there is a bit of an industry with law firms on the look out for any form of copyright infringement which they can make a case out of. They then take the proposed case to the company being 'infringed' and they tell them how much money they can make if they win with the firm taking a cut.

http://tcattorney.typepad.com/ip/

http://www.artlaws.com/

As mentioned (and back on topic): I believe that the factor of having to pay royalties to car companies has little or nothing to do as to why Hasbro doesn't release G1 toys. Those molds were already legally owned by Hasbro/Takara 25+ years ago. It's about collector pieces not being part of Hasbro's business model when it comes to retail.

It's not a viable stream of revenue though. They can recoup some or all of the licensing fees that ostensibly should have been payed in the first place for a manufacturer of other goods to use their car/company properties.

Any earnings would come under licensing revenue. It's not as if suddenly in the last 20 years a whole new revenue stream has opened up - it's just that in the last two decades car companies have started to become picky over licensing their vehicles out, and have become aware of companies that may have used their vehicles without paying a licensing fee.

Anyway, apart from the well knock VW and Porsche not wanting to be associated with war, as I understand it Ford didn't want to license their version of the Mustang for the movie to be a bad guy so Bay and co went with Saleen's version instead.