a thought on these 3rd party products.

[primatives]

I was thinking with all these 3rd party companies releasing so many products, and creating products that Hasbro won't/taking their time to create for fans. I was thinking eventually you'll have Transformers collections that really aren't Official Transformers. If that makes any sense. I do believe FP may have a combiner that will be characters of their own creation, with their toys being so cool I know I'd probably pick them up.

Knowing that there will be demand for figures that Hasbro won't release these 3rd party accomodates fans needs, but like I was saying if they keep doing so we'll have quite a few non official TF toys.

I'm not having a go at 3rd party companies or saying that only official toys should be bought just raising a topic for discussion. I love all this 3rd party stuff, just realised if things keep going the way they are going I'm going to end up with quite a few non-official TF's.

What do u guys think??

[Hursticon]

In the case of FansProject, I whole heartedly hope that they are in the beginnings of becoming they're own fully fledged company. :)

Think about it, how many new toy companies can you think of that have sprung up in the last 5 years and have been successful?
Now, think about the last 25 years and how many toy companies have attempted Form Shifting Robot Toys and have achieved decent levels of success?
Now, obviously FansProject have a while to go yet but they certainly have been laying the footings for quite a lot of future prosperity. :cool:

I personally think that if it gets to the point where there are enough companies/groups producing brand new IPs and said IPs are actually of a decent quality, then why shouldn't there be collectors of purely non-HasTakTom 'Transformers'? :cool:

I mean, it is almost certain that there are people who collect Bandai products exclusively - Be it Gobots, Rocklords, Power Ranger Zords and what have you, these collectors probably refuse to collect TF stuff as it would 'contaminate' their collections. :eek:
I actually wouldn't mind seeing some 3rd Party products that are based on the Old Gobots designs/characters - with some modern engineering and some sort of faction identification it could prove to be a catalyst of a revival of sorts? :D


We've all got to admit though, we're are living/collecting in some interesting times at the moment. ;)

[autobreadticon]

i don't know the exact details but Takara has in the past officially licienced garage kits (Superlink Misha) from events such as Wonderfest, . But i kinda like the idea that 3rd party customs are like rebels/pirates against the machine and by buying their custom products we are enraging the Hasbro beast. Its always good to have more toys :)

[Sky Shadow]

I actually wouldn't mind seeing some 3rd Party products that are based on the Old Gobots designs/characters - with some modern engineering and some sort of faction identification it could prove to be a catalyst of a revival of sorts? :D

I would love that. Hasbro hasn't done anywhere near enough GoBots/Robo Machine/Machine Robo/Machine Men homages - they need to do a Cy-Kill. Still, at this point, no third party company has released anything I thought was a necessary purchase or something worthwhile that Hasbro wasn't supplying. That new Reflector toy was going to be the closest thing, but I assume I'll just buy the Perceptor recolour instead.

[Hursticon]

I would love that. Hasbro hasn't done anywhere near enough GoBots/Robo Machine/Machine Robo/Machine Men homages - they need to do a Cy-Kill.

Oh man, could you imagine a FansProject Cy-Kill? :eek:

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a409/Darkone666au/Webpics/lordofthefiles_homer-drool.gif

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

Waitaminute...we've just seen pretty much the most 'fan'-oriented release of official figures I can remember pretty much ever, and you're worried Hasbro won't release 'for the fans'?:confused:
Look at the recent products we've been getting/are soon to get: Sergeant Kup, Blurr, Scourge, Thunderwing, Straxus Darkmount, Grapple, Jazz, Tracks, Wheeljack, Skullgrin, Mindset, Thundercracker, G2 Prime etc. etc. - until DotM comes out and floods the market for a year or so we the fans are being well taken care of by Hasbro even with the rise of 3rd parties. Add to that the fact that the 3rd party products mostly arose because they were doing stuff Hasbro wasn't (i.e. City Commander, Cliffjumper upgrades), and by their very nature (small-time, expensive, not available through ordinary retail channels and targeted at a limited market) will never pose serious competition to the Big Boy. IIRC we ('collectors') are only 10% of the market for TFs, so while we're not Hasbro's main target here (i.e. kids, or rather their parents) we are worth accommodating to an extent.
All of this ignores, of course, that quite a few of the official TF designers these days ARE fans themselves.

I too hope to have few unofficial TFs (too poor for now :( ), but ultimately the major bulk of my collection is still gonna be official stuff, and most of the unofficial pieces will be add-ons.

In short, we of the whiny 10% (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER) (though thankfully we Ozformers seem to be noticeably less hysterical than a lot of other communities) are probably OK as long as fan-based stuff (especially remolds/redecos) continues selling.
So relax, guy...take a load off!

[Skullcruncher]

would collectors (of curent releases not talking g1 here) even be 10% of the market?

[kaiden]

would collectors (of curent releases not talking g1 here) even be 10% of the market?

maybe there should be a survey of our forum members to see which 3rd party products we've purchased and see what percentage that is overall.

[kup]

Waitaminute...we've just seen pretty much the most 'fan'-oriented release of official figures I can remember pretty much ever, and you're worried Hasbro won't release 'for the fans'?:confused:
Look at the recent products we've been getting/are soon to get: Sergeant Kup, Blurr, Scourge, Thunderwing, Straxus Darkmount, Grapple, Jazz, Tracks, Wheeljack, Skullgrin, Mindset, Thundercracker, G2 Prime etc. etc. - until DotM comes out and floods the market for a year or so we the fans are being well taken care of by Hasbro even with the rise of 3rd parties. Add to that the fact that the 3rd party products mostly arose because they were doing stuff Hasbro wasn't (i.e. City Commander, Cliffjumper upgrades), and by their very nature (small-time, expensive, not available through ordinary retail channels and targeted at a limited market) will never pose serious competition to the Big Boy. IIRC we ('collectors') are only 10% of the market for TFs, so while we're not Hasbro's main target here (i.e. kids, or rather their parents) we are worth accommodating to an extent.
All of this ignores, of course, that quite a few of the official TF designers these days ARE fans themselves.

I too hope to have few unofficial TFs (too poor for now :( ), but ultimately the major bulk of my collection is still gonna be official stuff, and most of the unofficial pieces will be add-ons.

In short, we of the whiny 10% (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Ruined_FOREVER) (though thankfully we Ozformers seem to be noticeably less hysterical than a lot of other communities) are probably OK as long as fan-based stuff (especially remolds/redecos) continues selling.
So relax, guy...take a load off!

I think 3rd parties should stick with things that Hasbro would never do such as upgrades for legit toys (new heads, weapons, etc) and engineering that Hasbro are unable to get right for modern logistic reasons like combiners and triple-changers. Naturally there are odd exceptions to other figures like characters which Hasbro has gotten 'wrong' and will most likely not see an updated toy for some time if ever like Powerglide.

What I am getting sick of is the flooding of 'Let's pretend we are fans but we are actually just here to profit on the craze' products.

In regards to people having more unofficial stuff than official, I don't see that happening any time soon. I have been pretty supportive of 3rd party stuff in the last couple of years and yet they would only make up less than 1% of my collection, specially when much of it are upgrades to legit figures so they serve more as 'accessories' than a full toy.

[Ode to a Grasshopper]

@Skullcruncher: I can't find the link but IIRC someone asked a question at either last year's BotCon or one of the Hasbro Q&A submissions about Hasbro's catering to 'the fans', and the rep gave the 10% figure of overall TF sales. If I can find the link I'll post it.:)
I think 3rd parties should stick with things that Hasbro would never do such as upgrades for legit toys (new heads, weapons, etc) and engineering that Hasbro are unable to get right for modern logistic reasons like combiners and triple-changers. Naturally there are odd exceptions to other figures like characters which Hasbro has gotten 'wrong' and will most likely not see an updated toy for some time if ever like Powerglide.

What I am getting sick of is the flooding of 'Let's pretend we are fans but we are actually just here to profit on the craze' products.

In regards to people having more unofficial stuff than official, I don't see that happening any time soon. I have been pretty supportive of 3rd party stuff in the last couple of years and yet they would only make up less than 1% of my collection, specially when much of it are upgrades to legit figures so they serve more as 'accessories' than a full toy.+1 on pretty much everything said here.

[mentok27]

Ive gone a bit crazy with 3rd party lately but im stil more keen for official releases. sure Im probably gonna side with PE Reflector over Hasbro's perceptor repaint but thats just one example where id lean away from Has/Tak but the bulk of my fig's will be theirs for sure.

[kup]

This is also another waste of time and plastic:

http://www.robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=TFATFCEX004-1&lang=us

I don't see any point to these things than a cheap form of cashing in by using marketable official characters. I wouldn't call these 'fan made'.

[Hursticon]

This is also another waste of time and plastic:

http://www.robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=TFATFCEX004-1&lang=us

I don't see any point to these things than a cheap form of cashing in by using marketable official characters. I wouldn't call these 'fan made'.

Yep, I'd have to agree with you on these Kup. :)

[gdmetro]

This is also another waste of time and plastic:

http://www.robotkingdom.com/services/eshop/main.php?action=details&CatType=&II=TFATFCEX004-1&lang=us

I don't see any point to these things than a cheap form of cashing in by using marketable official characters. I wouldn't call these 'fan made'.

Exactly. I do not even consider getting these.


As for 3rd party products overwhelming- I don't care as long as I'm happy with my collection- but I see these 3rd party products as filling in the gaps that Has/Tak cannot- especially for the Classics line specifically.
They gap fill by either being add on kits to upgrade and perfect what the original fig was - i.e. Classics UM and Cliffjumper, or being moulds of obscure or unmarketable characters that Has/Tak would never be able to sell or make such as combiners, sub-teams.

[kup]

Exactly. I do not even consider getting these.


As for 3rd party products overwhelming- I don't care as long as I'm happy with my collection- but I see these 3rd party products as filling in the gaps that Has/Tak cannot- especially for the Classics line specifically.
They gap fill by either being add on kits to upgrade and perfect what the original fig was - i.e. Classics UM and Cliffjumper, or being moulds of obscure or unmarketable characters that Has/Tak would never be able to sell or make such as combiners, sub-teams.

That is exactly what 3rd parties should be and the best ones fulfill that role. Unfortunately a good number of them do not serve that purpose by clearly being there for sole purpose of financial gain and that is the source of my complaint.

It almost feels as if the Ferengi have gotten wind of the profit to be made with 3rd party stuff. Yeah that is what I am going to call them, Ferengi products.

[Vector Prime]

I think I'm probably the only collector here (besides Gok, that is) that still refuses to purchase a third party item whether it be an overpriced 'upgrade' kit or an equally overpriced figure :p

While I look at them and appreciate how they 'complete' someone's collection, I myself would rather go without a particular character (or upgrade kit) then to substitute it with a third party product.

To me, they're just not Transformers and they belong in the same category as KO's and I would never want to dilute the purity of my TFs by adding them to my collection.

(VP ducks for cover)

Having said that though, go figure, I spend vast amounts of money on aftermarket performance parts for my cars and not even think twice about it - even though they're not sanctioned or endorsed by the vehicle manufacturer, but somehow, I just can't bring myself to do the same for TFs? :confused:

[kup]

To me, they're just not Transformers and they belong in the same category as KO's and I would never want to dilute the purity of my TFs by adding them to my collection.

(VP ducks for cover)


My comments here isn't focused at anyone in particular, just commenting on the term mentioned above which I have seen used by a few people in the fandom.

Without flaming nor getting into the tired discussion of what constitutes a KO, I never understood this 'purity' stance. Why is a collection that has 3rd party upgrades any less 'pure' than one that doesn't. Don't I still own the official figure that was upgraded? What about complete unofficial figures like Defender; is my collection any less pure when I display it? Is it so Powerful that it lessens all my hundreds of official figures composed of Botcon, G1, BW, Binaltech, Classics, etc into null if I display it besides them?

I can understand someone not liking 3rd party products or making a conscious choice to only collect legit items but this collection 'purity' concept is something else entirely.

I know most of us here see Transformers as something much more than just a hobby, I know I do but some do take a strange ideological, almost theological stand on it. The concept of this 'purity' is very abstract in a theological way so I feel that if I ever take such a stance, collecting Transformers would no longer be about fun for me but something much more serious which would suck the joy out of it. This hobby serves me as something fun that I do to distract myself from the monotony of everyday life while enjoying it with others. It's not a religion in which I need to impose a strict ideological and moral structure onto it which I use to judge the 'purity' of mine and other collections. Collecting helps me enjoy life a bit better, it doesn't need to have a strict ideology.

[griffin]

My comments here isn't focused at anyone in particular, just commenting on the term mentioned above which I have seen used by a few people in the fandom.

Without flaming nor getting into the tired discussion of what constitutes a KO, I never understood this 'purity' stance. Why is a collection that has 3rd party upgrades any less 'pure' than one that doesn't. Don't I still own the official figure that was upgraded? What about complete unofficial figures like Defender; is my collection any less pure when I display it? Is it so Powerful that it lessens all my hundreds of official figures composed of Botcon, G1, BW, Binaltech, Classics, etc into null if I display it besides them?

My comments are also not focussed at anyone in particular... this is just my opinion on what a 'purity of a collection' means, in relation to mine anyway.
More and more lately I've been considering my collection as more of an archive of (Hasbro) Transformers, especially since I buy all the stuff most collectors avoid... so when I have people come over to look at the collection, or if at some point again in the future that I publicly display it 'as a Transformers (r) collection', I need to be able to say that it is just (purely) Transformers. I keep the MOTU toys separate, and if I collected any other toys or unauthorised TFs toys, I'd keep them separate so that the Transformers part of my collection/archive is purely Transformers.

[kup]

My comments are also not focussed at anyone in particular... this is just my opinion on what a 'purity of a collection' means, in relation to mine anyway.
More and more lately I've been considering my collection as more of an archive of (Hasbro) Transformers, especially since I buy all the stuff most collectors avoid... so when I have people come over to look at the collection, or if at some point again in the future that I publicly display it 'as a Transformers (r) collection', I need to be able to say that it is just (purely) Transformers. I keep the MOTU toys separate, and if I collected any other toys or unauthorised TFs toys, I'd keep them separate so that the Transformers part of my collection/archive is purely Transformers.

As mentioned in my previous post, I can certainly understand that reasoning.

[GoktimusPrime]

primatives: if collecting unlicensed products bothers you and makes you think that it makes your collection "less pure" by having them... then just don't collect them. But if you do collect them then you'll have to accept the fact that your collection will be, in part, unofficial.

Vector Prime: there are quite a few collectors who don't buy unlicensed toys. :) There are even some collectors who refuse to buy official reissues as they consider them to be "less pure" than the originals. I personally won't buy unlicensed toys, but I'll happily buy reissues - as I personally don't feel that they 'lessen' my collection. And I'm sure most people who collect unlicensed toys don't feel that they "lessen" their collections either.

[Vector Prime]

To each their own I suppose - but I won't be in any hurry to buy any third party accessories (or figures).

It just doesn't 'feel right' :p

[kup]

There are even some collectors who refuse to buy official reissues as they consider them to be "less pure" than the originals.

This is the context where I originally heard the term 'purity' applied and this was well before the 3rd party explosion. Every now and then some guy would show up in a reissue discussion and arrogantly proclaim that he would never 'defile' his collection with cheap reproductions (referring to the official reissue). He didn't contribute anything to the discussion other than to turn his nose up at anyone who would collect a reissue.

After the 3rd party explosion, the 'purity' thing gradually shifted to 3rd party toys but often the intention of the poster remained the same.

[Hursticon]

This is the context where I originally heard the term 'purity' applied and this was well before the 3rd party explosion. Every now and then some guy would show up in a reissue discussion and arrogantly proclaim that he would never 'defile' his collection with cheap reproductions (referring to the official reissue). He didn't contribute anything to the discussion other than to turn his nose up at anyone who would collect a reissue.

After the 3rd party explosion, the 'purity' thing gradually shifted to 3rd party toys but often the intention of the poster remained the same.

I hate reissues... purely because a 30ft electrified fence grows up from underneath me and I just can't seem to choose a side to fall towards. :p:D

For me, if the figure is fairly expensive, like Predaking or Piranacon, chances are I'll go with the reissue because it's probably the only way I'll ever be able to afford the mold - for things like a reissue Trailbreaker or Sunstreaker, I'd much prefer an original figure and I think I'd probably be like that with every figure up to '86. :o

Regardless, to say one's collection is 'impure' because it has reissues in it when it is still 100% HasTakTom products and no 3rd parties, is pure ridiculousness. :rolleyes:

[kaiden]

i just go with whatever is cheapest - that way i can buy more :rolleyes:

so yeah i dont have any original G1s just the reissue Piranacon and Predaking.

[GoktimusPrime]

Regardless, to say one's collection is 'impure' because it has reissues in it when it is still 100% HasTakTom products and no 3rd parties, is pure ridiculousness. :rolleyes:

Not necessarily. It depends on one's personal standards which is opinion-based, so you can't really say that they're right or wrong.


Some people are collectors of pure G1. And G1 ran from 1984-1993. Reissues that were produced after that period are really NOT G1, but rather official reproductions of G1 toys. And some collectors insist on collecting original G1s, not reproductions (no matter how nice they may be). The fact that reissues are reproductions and not originals doesn't matter to some people.

Some people will even collect knock offs because they're cheaper and easier to get (at least in theory, but I've heard that a lot of reissues are now even more expensive than what you'd pay for an original G1). The fact that these toys are illegitimate counterfeits doesn't matter for some people.

Some people will collect third party items because they fill a perceived gap (i.e. they make stuff that HasTak have not or will not or are unable to make). The fact that these toys are unlicensed doesn't matter to some people.

For me personally, I'll happily collect reissues (cos the fact that they're repros doesn't matter), but I won't buy knockoffs or 3rd party items, because the fact that they're counterfeits and unlicensed products respectively does matter to me. But that's just my personal standards.


This is the context where I originally heard the term 'purity' applied and this was well before the 3rd party explosion. Every now and then some guy would show up in a reissue discussion and arrogantly proclaim that he would never 'defile' his collection with cheap reproductions (referring to the official reissue). He didn't contribute anything to the discussion other than to turn his nose up at anyone who would collect a reissue.

After the 3rd party explosion, the 'purity' thing gradually shifted to 3rd party toys but often the intention of the poster remained the same.
Authenticity is probably a better word to use than "purity." While I can understand how that poster feels, on the other hand it's unnecessary for him to waltz into discussions about things he doesn't collect and whinge about them for whinging's sake.

I seldomly frequent this part of the board and I don't even read or post on most threads here. I'm participating in this thread because primative appears to be showing concern about his continuing collecting of 3rd party items effecting the authenticity of his collection. If that's something that concerns you, then just don't collect them. If it doesn't concern you, then go nuts. :) :cool:

[kaiden]

he was just speculating on the increased production on 3rd party products and how they would affect our collections in general. basically would they eventually overtake our hasbro/takaratomy transformers?

and my answer is no. they'll never have enough money to outproduce H/TT and like kup has pointed out - a lot of these 3rd party products are accessories made to compliment and further complete certain toys.

[primatives]

primatives: if collecting unlicensed products bothers you and makes you think that it makes your collection "less pure" by having them... then just don't collect them. But if you do collect them then you'll have to accept the fact that your collection will be, in part, unofficial.

Vector Prime: there are quite a few collectors who don't buy unlicensed toys. :) There are even some collectors who refuse to buy official reissues as they consider them to be "less pure" than the originals. I personally won't buy unlicensed toys, but I'll happily buy reissues - as I personally don't feel that they 'lessen' my collection. And I'm sure most people who collect unlicensed toys don't feel that they "lessen" their collections either.

hey man I'm not actually concerned at all, like I said in my 1st post it was just something that I realised was happening. These 3rd party companies are pumping out products like there is no tomorrow. It just made me think that these guys soon could like some people on this forum have said could start having their own line of toys.

I actually totally dig these guys work especially FP stuff. The Bruticus add-on is the most badass looking robot!!!!! I've not really looked at ant other company cos the quality seems really bad but I have been keeping an eye out on the reflector toy and the kup heads. I myself will continue to buy 3rd party products as long as it looks good to me and the quality is good.

I just wanted to see what everyone elses opinion was thats all :)

[1AZRAEL1]

It almost feels as if the Ferengi have gotten wind of the profit to be made with 3rd party stuff. Yeah that is what I am going to call them, Ferengi products.

Nice analogy. I think I will use that from now on as well :p

As for 3rd party products, something that compliments my Classics figures (UM upgrade, Roadbuster upgrade, etc...) I find ok in my books. I already paid for the base figure, but I thought it was lacking a bit. These just make the base figure even better and a more G1 look. Defender (If I had mine) would be on the same page for me, even though it is a figure in itself, but the fact it fits in with my Classics figures is fine.

Then you have these bloody targetmasters, that have no real appeal to me because they do not add to the Classics feel for me. Easy pass for me. And the legends BB and CJ, I have the deluxe, why would I want them? Those are purely a cash grab.

Reflector, even though I will buy the 3rd party one, I will more than likely get the Hasbro repaint as well. So Hasbro will still get their money from me.

[kup]

This is mostly for people who are 'strict' when it comes to collection numbers.

When it comes 3rd party products counting in your collection, do people actually count them as if they were official?

I know I buy 3rd party products and I do display them for my own enjoyment as some of them do fill gaps in a display or improves a previously lacking official figure that would have otherwise looked odd or inappropriate for the character it was representing as 1Azrael1 was saying.

I display them just as proudly as any other toy and from a personal perspective, they do count but say someone was doing an official poll or I end up in a show like the Collectors as Tiby did, would I count them then? No.

Naturally I would still count the City Commander armored Classics Ultra Magnus as 1 because there is still an unchanged original figure inside and the same goes with other 'upgraded' figures in my collection as the official figure is still there. When it comes to stand alone 3rd party figures like Defender or Valkyrie, I would not count them.

If I was formally asked for a collection count I would only provide the official figure count excluding stand alone 3rd parties or would provide the 3rd party count as a separate number since technically they are not Transformers but since I only have 2 at this time, it may not even be worth mentioning.

I believe that most people who collect 3rd parties would probably not count them as 'official' in a formal poll since they are not licensed products even though personally, they are proud to own them.

[Hursticon]

Yep, I'm the same Kup. ;)
If I'm partaking in a count of Official Transformers, then 3rd party products don't even get factored in whereas if it's a count on 'Transforming Toys', then that's a different story. :)

[Lord_Zed]

I'm happy to buy 3rd part products if they are awesome toys. I can understand why others might not want them in there collection, but as my collection is already of an eclectic nature there ok by me.


Nice analogy. I think I will use that from now on as well :p

As for 3rd party products, something that compliments my Classics figures (UM upgrade, Roadbuster upgrade, etc...) I find ok in my books. I already paid for the base figure, but I thought it was lacking a bit. These just make the base figure even better and a more G1 look. Defender (If I had mine) would be on the same page for me, even though it is a figure in itself, but the fact it fits in with my Classics figures is fine.

Then you have these bloody targetmasters, that have no real appeal to me because they do not add to the Classics feel for me. Easy pass for me. And the legends BB and CJ, I have the deluxe, why would I want them? Those are purely a cash grab.



I really don't understand this whole cash grab stuff that has been harped on about a few times in this thread. All these 3rd party companies exist to make profit last time I checked, so they must all be from Ferenginar if that's what wanting to make profit means. There all making things directly related to the Transformers franchise too. Clearly some companies seem to have done more research into what the fan market desires, I don't understand the scorn and negativity reserved for the other 3rd party companies. While I do agree those target master robot guys look pretty unappealing, I like that such things exist as in time they may hopefully spur innovation. And of course the more companies out there and increased competition should lead to better or cheaper products. Rome wasn't built in a day after all.

[UltraMarginal]

Wow, quite a lot of interest in this thread.

Purity of collection is an interesting question. I have always purchased nothing but originals. until I was in TRU Parramatta a few years ago (quite a few now):o, and there on the shelf was a re-issue Hotrod!! WOW $25, with inflation that's got to be cheaper than the original. something I'd always wanted but never been able to get hold of.
I bought it without thinking twice about it. In my eyes it was an exact replica of the original and an official product.

Another time I saw a KO of Darkwing from G1, I had dreadwind from when I was young, but could never get Darkwing. It was just some average $2 shop and the figure looked like it had all the necessary hooks to join up with Dreadwind. I got it, eventually took it home to my parents where my original collection sits, and lo and behold it's th wrong scale. It's on the shelf next to dreadwing but it's two tone cheap crappy plastic and only good to display in robot mode. but what do you expect for $4. :D

I never really consciously thought about the "purity"/"officialness" of my collection till then. but the darkwing is a placeholder for one day eventually getting the proper one either a re-issue or the original.

I have the city commander and consider it more an enhancement than an individual element.
I may get the rodimus trailer from FP but only to enhance that scale in my collection because I am for sure getting MP09.

I don't think the third party companies will individually ever take over HasTak in volume of sales or volume of molds, just because their target market is a subset of what HasTak produces. Even combined, they generally produce "add on" products that are useless on their own. And even though there have been a lot of smaller companies start up in the last 12 months, there is still a much greater volume of products coming out of HasTak.

The Protector is an exception to this rule but in it's case, I'm just going to wait for Hastak to come up with a new version of Springer, given all the other characters they have produced in the last 12 months, it's surely on their list of things to do.

As mentioned above, there is a great argument for more third party companies. if there is more competition, there is more innovation and potentially better quality and value. The third party gun character figures are certainly not on my list of maybe's. They have turned normal characters into targetmasters, which I probably wouldn't be interested in if HasTak did it.

The irony of making a megatron toy that turns into a generic gun is kind of amusing though.:D

This will hopefully promote even more innovation from HasTak too, which I think is part of the reason we have so many reimaginations of G1 figures coming through at the moment. There is even a chance that HasTak are intentionally leaving details out, like a gun here or there to allow something for the third party mobs to produce, hence promoting sales of HasTak product...

don't forget HasTak was the original "hey lets produce toys for profit" group of this entire community.

In summary of my ridiculously long spiel (sorry:o) I think Third party products are here to stay and for those who don't dislike them on principle, they will continue to enhance an already excellent product. but they will alway s be secondary to the official HasTak product simply because their entire premise is to be riding on the coat tails of a first party product.

[GoktimusPrime]

As mentioned above, there is a great argument for more third party companies. if there is more competition, there is more innovation and potentially better quality and value. The third party gun character figures are certainly not on my list of maybe's. They have turned normal characters into targetmasters, which I probably wouldn't be interested in if HasTak did it.
It's not really a fair competition though since we're looking at infringement of Hasbro's intellectual property. Hasbro doesn't compete by taking their competitor's IP. For example, Transformers was released by Hasbro as a way for them to compete with then-rival company Tonka's Machine Men/Go-Bots. They copied Tonka's idea in terms of finding Japanese transforming robot toys and bringing them into their own market, but whereas Tonka adapted Bandai's Machine Robo, Hasbro adapted Takara's Diaclone and Microman. Hasbro then commissioned Marvel/Sunbow to make a comic and cartoon series, and Tonka returned in kinda with their own series, such as a cartoon from Hanna Barbera. But as similar as these franchises may have been, they were certainly distinct from each other.

Now having said all that, as you said, the 3rd party items are (with some exceptions) mostly augmentations for Hasbro's toys - designed to compliment and accessorise them rather than compete with them (e.g. City Commander etc.)... so in that way a lot of their products are mutually beneficial with Hasbro's.


This will hopefully promote even more innovation from HasTak too, which I think is part of the reason we have so many reimaginations of G1 figures coming through at the moment.
The reimaginings of G1 characters occurred before the advent of 3rd party items. In fact, a lot of 3rd party items came out because fans saw a way to capitalise on the toys that Hasbro was pumping out. For example, toys like Classics Ultra Magnus and Cliffjumper came out in 2006, and later on 3rd party producers saw the opportunity to create City Commander and the Cliffjumper Upgrade Kit to compliment these toys.


There is even a chance that HasTak are intentionally leaving details out, like a gun here or there to allow something for the third party mobs to produce, hence promoting sales of HasTak product...
That's highly unlikely for many legal reasons. And remember that Hasbro/Takara Legal are really tight (which is why, thanks to legal reasons, we have ridiculously stupid names like "Solar Storm Grappel" <shudder>). Hasbro's budget is really tight for each toy where every single accessory and even drop of paint is budgeted for. Hasbro and Takara aren't even allowed to cross contaminate each other's markets (they have a contract that restricts them from doing so)... let alone attempting to cross over with unlicensed manufacturers.

Hasbro are graciously pretending that they don't know that 3rd party producers exist, much like how anime distributors kindly pretend that fansubbers don't exist. They recognise that these fan-groups who engage in legally dubious practises probably do more good for their products than harm, so allow them to continue -- up to a point of course. For example, fansubbers and anime distributors have an unspoken rule that once a Western distributor acquires the rights to an anime, then all production and distribution of that anime is halted.


don't forget HasTak was the original "hey lets produce toys for profit" group of this entire community.
Of course, but they're doing it legitimately. I don't think anyone would argue against legitimate competition. Transformers has a LOT of legitimate competition in Japan (e.g. Gundam, Macross and various other kinds of giant robot/mecha franchises).


In summary of my ridiculously long spiel (sorry:o) I think Third party products are here to stay and for those who don't dislike them on principle, they will continue to enhance an already excellent product. but they will alway s be secondary to the official HasTak product simply because their entire premise is to be riding on the coat tails of a first party product.
I don't purchase unlicensed toys as a matter of principle, but I personally don't find third party items objectionable as I do with knockoffs.

3rd and 1st party items often compliment each other in a mutually beneficial kind of way... whereas knockoffs are just counterfeits. Also, 3rd party items don't attempt to deceive consumers into thinking that they are genuine Transformers since they aren't imitations of official products, whereas KOs do. I've never come across anyone who's purchased a 3rd party item thinking it was legit, but I've come across several people who've purchased knockoffs thinking they were legit, only later to find out that they weren't.

[UltraMarginal]

It's not really a fair competition though since we're looking at infringement of Hasbro's intellectual property. Hasbro doesn't compete by taking their competitor's IP. For example, Transformers was released by Hasbro as a way for them to compete with then-rival company Tonka's Machine Men/Go-Bots. They copied Tonka's idea in terms of finding Japanese transforming robot toys and bringing them into their own market, but whereas Tonka adapted Bandai's Machine Robo, Hasbro adapted Takara's Diaclone and Microman. Hasbro then commissioned Marvel/Sunbow to make a comic and cartoon series, and Tonka returned in kinda with their own series, such as a cartoon from Hanna Barbera. But as similar as these franchises may have been, they were certainly distinct from each other.

Now having said all that, as you said, the 3rd party items are (with some exceptions) mostly augmentations for Hasbro's toys - designed to compliment and accessorise them rather than compete with them (e.g. City Commander etc.)... so in that way a lot of their products are mutually beneficial with Hasbro's.


The reimaginings of G1 characters occurred before the advent of 3rd party items. In fact, a lot of 3rd party items came out because fans saw a way to capitalise on the toys that Hasbro was pumping out. For example, toys like Classics Ultra Magnus and Cliffjumper came out in 2006, and later on 3rd party producers saw the opportunity to create City Commander and the Cliffjumper Upgrade Kit to compliment these toys.


That's highly unlikely for many legal reasons. And remember that Hasbro/Takara Legal are really tight (which is why, thanks to legal reasons, we have ridiculously stupid names like "Solar Storm Grappel" <shudder>). Hasbro's budget is really tight for each toy where every single accessory and even drop of paint is budgeted for. Hasbro and Takara aren't even allowed to cross contaminate each other's markets (they have a contract that restricts them from doing so)... let alone attempting to cross over with unlicensed manufacturers.

Hasbro are graciously pretending that they don't know that 3rd party producers exist, much like how anime distributors kindly pretend that fansubbers don't exist. They recognise that these fan-groups who engage in legally dubious practises probably do more good for their products than harm, so allow them to continue -- up to a point of course. For example, fansubbers and anime distributors have an unspoken rule that once a Western distributor acquires the rights to an anime, then all production and distribution of that anime is halted.


Of course, but they're doing it legitimately. I don't think anyone would argue against legitimate competition. Transformers has a LOT of legitimate competition in Japan (e.g. Gundam, Macross and various other kinds of giant robot/mecha franchises).


I don't purchase unlicensed toys as a matter of principle, but I personally don't find third party items objectionable as I do with knockoffs.

3rd and 1st party items often compliment each other in a mutually beneficial kind of way... whereas knockoffs are just counterfeits. Also, 3rd party items don't attempt to deceive consumers into thinking that they are genuine Transformers since they aren't imitations of official products, whereas KOs do. I've never come across anyone who's purchased a 3rd party item thinking it was legit, but I've come across several people who've purchased knockoffs thinking they were legit, only later to find out that they weren't.


Good thoughts, I'm going to have to follow this up when I'm sober...